Operation Get Tom Boyd - Done and dusted

[Hotdog60]

What makes you think this? There'll surely never been another deal, as reported, like this again for a player, unless another expansion team comes in.

Sounds like Buddy has a knee problem that will need to be managed for the rest of his career.

LANCE Franklin will have to manage his knee condition for the rest of his career, says leading sports medico Dr Peter Larkins.

The 26-year-old has missed two games with the knee issue that is causing soreness in his calf.

While Larkins expects the Hawthorn star to be available to train this week and face Essendon on Friday night, he believes the issue that stems from an injury sustained in the 2011 finals will haunt him for the rest of his playing days.

"I think it's an on-going management concern, whether he's at Hawthorn or GWS or playing in the bush," Larkins told AFL.com.au.

"It's a chronic low-grade knee condition – not a serious knee condition but it's a chronic condition.

"This is his third or fourth episode since 2011 of the same thing happening.

"They can't stop it; they have to deal with it and it will keep happening the rest of his career, I believe.

"It really just goes with the fact he's got some vulnerability in that knee from that 2011 incident."
LINK (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-07-22/buddy-injury-chronic)
So he may well like a lucrative contract to end his playing days.

[Dry Rot]

I'm now of the opinion that Franklin is staying at the Hawks so there is no way they will let the number one pick go unless some puts a too big of a deal in front of them

So they go for Boyd? Or are they worried about the young gun GC mids and go for Aish?

[anfo27]

I think GWS are bluffing. If Boyd is as good as what media etc are saying, why would u not what him at your club?

I say they select him with pick 1.

Because Boyd won't put bumbs on seats & Lance will.

[GVGjr]

What makes you think this? There'll surely never been another deal, as reported, like this again for a player, unless another expansion team comes in.

Liam Pickering has been saying this for a few weeks when he would have been better off keeping quiet and confirming nothing if he was intending to go.

[GVGjr]

So they go for Boyd? Or are they worried about the young gun GC mids and go for Aish?

Cameron, Boyd and Patton would be great for their list. If they were to land Buddy then they would likely trade the pick but if Buddy is staying at the Hawks then they will only consider someone prepared to pay well over the odds.

[anfo27]

Liam Pickering has been saying this for a few weeks when he would have been better off keeping quiet and confirming nothing if he was intending to go.

I wouldn't take any notice what Pickers comes out with. Didn't he say that they will not look at any offers until the end of the season then a few weeks later saying he thinks he will stay at Hawthorn because thats the only offer thats on the table?

[GVGjr]

I wouldn't take any notice what Pickers comes out with. Didn't he say that they will not look at any offers until the end of the season then a few weeks later saying he thinks he will stay at Hawthorn because thats the only offer thats on the table?

He was asked if Buddy was likely to go and could have easily said he would wait until the end of the season. Instead he made a reference that Buddy was more likely to stay a Hawk.

You can question his intention but it seemed very clear to me.

[wimberga]

I wouldn't take any notice what Pickers comes out with. Didn't he say that they will not look at any offers until the end of the season then a few weeks later saying he thinks he will stay at Hawthorn because thats the only offer thats on the table?

That was pretty much it Anfo. I remember listening to the interview on SEN.

The panel were asking Pickers about whether or not buddy would go and he was saying "We haven't received an offer from GWS so I can only go off what is in front of us now" and they kept pushing and he conceded that he had talked to GWS but hadnt received an offer. Then when he was pushed a bit more he said "As I said, I can only say what buddy is going to do and I can only say that he is going to stay at Hawthorn because that is the only offer thats on the table".

Then of course, the next day the headlines stated "BUDDY WILL STAY: MANAGER: and thinks to that effect. I agree with MJP that he could have been quieter but hearing the whole conversation, I think you wouldn't be any closer to determining what he is going to do.

[Dry Rot]

Cameron, Boyd and Patton would be great for their list.

Agree, but not in 2014 or maybe 2015.

GWS desperately need to improve real fast - I reckon they'll go for Gumby to help that lot out. Only Cameron looks like being good over the next 2 seasons.

[Remi Moses]

Heard Leon a day or so back on SEN say they're targeting a key back and an inside mid as well as an experienced ruck.

[LostDoggy]

What makes you think this? There'll surely never been another deal, as reported, like this again for a player, unless another expansion team comes in.

Grant's deal was, at the time, the most offered to a player.


Heard Leon a day or so back on SEN say they're targeting a key back and an inside mid as well as an experienced ruck.

Roughead + Minson + Pick3/4?

[chef]

Roughead + Minson + Pick3/4?

Way to much IMO.

[chef]

Agree, but not in 2014 or maybe 2015.

GWS desperately need to improve real fast - I reckon they'll go for Gumby to help that lot out. Only Cameron looks like being good over the next 2 seasons.

I don't think they do.

Their plan would be to build the team properly with kids and dominate for 10+ years, if they have to wait a few years for it to happen so be it.

[1eyedog]

Grant's deal was, at the time, the most offered to a player.



Roughead + Minson + Pick3/4?

No freaking way am I giving up Roughhead. He will be a very good player.

[1eyedog]

I don't think they do.

Their plan would be to build the team properly with kids and dominate for 10+ years, if they have to wait a few years for it to happen so be it.

Can they afford the sluggish member numbers that will ensue from a continuation of poor showings? You'd think they'd need to get off to a good start and recruit a big player ala GCS. Vlad's vision was always for rapid growth due to increased competition from Rugby and now the World Game.

Apologies for the double post.

[Hotdog60]

I think we have to face the music guys, the horse has bolted as he will not fall to our pick.
Start targeting who else we would like. Time maybe to see who has a big body and a great set of hands in the state leagues even if they kick at 50%. We just need someone at this stage to win the contested mark more than not.

[azabob]

Can they afford the sluggish member numbers that will ensue from all the poor showings?

They, as in the AFL and GWS = yes.

[1eyedog]

They, as in the AFL and GWS = yes.

The AFL don't want to get too cocky with this or they risk losing their audience in Western Sydney. Big time.

[chef]

Can they afford the sluggish member numbers that will ensue from a continuation of poor showings? You'd think they'd need to get off to a good start and recruit a big player ala GCS. Vlad's vision was always for rapid growth due to increased competition from Rugby and now the World Game.

Apologies for the double post.

To me a winning team will draw a crowd more than a Buddy Franklin. The AFL want to do this properly and will wear a bit of short term pain for long term gain.

[Twodogs]

The AFL don't want to get too cocky with this or they risk losing their audience in Western Sydney. Big time.



Good. Move them down to Tassie where they should have been in the first place. West Sydney is just a huge black hole that will suck the AFL's money up and return nothing.

[Mofra]

Can they afford the sluggish member numbers that will ensue from a continuation of poor showings? You'd think they'd need to get off to a good start and recruit a big player ala GCS. Vlad's vision was always for rapid growth due to increased competition from Rugby and now the World Game.
No, they cannot - also consider that the Folau experiment is over which has freed up their player marketing allowance (double that of other AFL clubs) and a potential drawcrad for non-AFL types no longer exists.

They can afford to overpay for Franklin and will do so. The AFL must be silently hoping that Franklin signs with GS.

[Bulldog Joe]

I think we have to face the music guys, the horse has bolted as he will not fall to our pick.
Start targeting who else we would like. Time maybe to see who has a big body and a great set of hands in the state leagues even if they kick at 50%. We just need someone at this stage to win the contested mark more than not.

I keep thinking that Mitch Thorp will provide this.

Having a very good year in Tasmania and coaching a team that is a real premiership chance. May well have matured mentally and ready for a real crack.

He is the ideal type for the 2nd Ruck forward in the mould of Leigh Brown

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Grant's deal was, at the time, the most offered to a player.



Roughead + Minson + Pick3/4?

Thats too much IMO. Maybe one of them plus a mid-range player and pick 3/4. We are essentially giving up 3 quality players for 1 with that trade. I agree that it may take that to do the deal though

[LostDoggy]

Thats too much IMO. Maybe one of them plus a mid-range player and pick 3/4. We are essentially giving up 3 quality players for 1 with that trade. I agree that it may take that to do the deal though

Yep. We'd need one of those inflatable rings to sit on for quite some time. Throw in a player and their pick 10 and then the conversation can start.

The previous deal would be one step forward and three steps back.

[Axe Man]

What your club needs to do to get pick 1 (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-07-24/what-your-club-needs-to-do-to-get-pick-1)

From the AFL Website:


The Bulldogs have made it clear that they won't be offering up Ryan Griffen as trade bait, so that doesn't leave the club with much room to move. Griffen has the runs on the board after a huge season, and would have been an attractive prospect for Greater Western Sydney. Will Minson is another with currency, and the Giants need a mature ruckman. But if the Dogs give up Minson, their ruck stocks are close to non-existent given their big man has shouldered the load solo this year. It's a big gamble. The Dogs would love to snare a key forward like Tom Boyd, but they are going to have to be flexible if they are to get a deal done with the Giants.
What are the chances?
While it may be unlikely, anything can happen in trade week. The Bulldogs have made it clear they aren't prepared to give up the cattle required to snare the top draft pick - not yet anyway. After years of compromised drafts the Dogs should finish up with a pick in the top four. With Boyd out of the frame the club may look to snare a polished midfielder, like James Aish, Josh Kelly or Jack Billings.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

What your club needs to do to get pick 1 (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-07-24/what-your-club-needs-to-do-to-get-pick-1)

From the AFL Website:

From that article it sounds like Brisbane, Carlton, Saints and us are the only ones with a shot. Saints and Brisbane probably have the most to deal with.

I dont think the Saints would give up McEvoy plus pick 3 when they need midfielders desparately to fix their ageing midfield. They're better of sticking with pick 3 to get a quality mid and keeping McEvoy to complement the new midfield for the future. They do have Hickey but McEvoy is a fair way ahead of him and you cant rely on just Hickey

Brisbane probably have the best shot as they have the right players to entice GWS and may have a fairly low pick themselves.

Carlton i dont think have a chance as Yarran and another plus a mid pick wont get it done.

We would have to give up Will and 1 other plus pick 4. If we aren't prepared to give up Will then it wont happen for us.

All in all i dont see a deal getting done unless GWS have franklin and really think an extra forward is overkill when they can get a quality player, plus pick 3 or 4 anyway to further trade with

[Ghost Dog]

Probably just a Sheedy media stunt anyway.

[Remi Moses]

From that article it sounds like Brisbane, Carlton, Saints and us are the only ones with a shot. Saints and Brisbane probably have the most to deal with.

I dont think the Saints would give up McEvoy plus pick 3 when they need midfielders desparately to fix their ageing midfield. They're better of sticking with pick 3 to get a quality mid and keeping McEvoy to complement the new midfield for the future. They do have Hickey but McEvoy is a fair way ahead of him and you cant rely on just Hickey

Brisbane probably have the best shot as they have the right players to entice GWS and may have a fairly low pick themselves.

Carlton i dont think have a chance as Yarran and another plus a mid pick wont get it done.

We would have to give up Will and 1 other plus pick 4. If we aren't prepared to give up Will then it wont happen for us.

All in all i dont see a deal getting done unless GWS have franklin and really think an extra forward is overkill when they can get a quality player, plus pick 3 or 4 anyway to further trade with

Brendan McCartney's on record as saying it will take 5 to 6 years to become a very good side.
I'd still trade Will and pick 4.
They could pick up a ruckman at a club like Geelong who have about 10.

[azabob]

Brendan McCartney's on record as saying it will take 5 to 6 years to become a very good side.
I'd still trade Will and pick 4.
They could pick up a ruckman at a club like Geelong who have about 10.

But are we not half way through the 5-6 year period?

I propose we abort operation get Tom Boyd.

[LostDoggy]

But are we not half way through the 5-6 year period?

I propose we abort operation get Tom Boyd.

Second the motion. Not going to happen.

[bulldogtragic]

But are we not half way through the 5-6 year period?

I propose we abort operation get Tom Boyd.
I usually agree with you Aza, but can't on this one.

I would like the club (behind closed doors) work out what it thinks is a fair offer and be assertive.

Hypothetically, Minson, Williams (or Wood etc), Mitch Brown (WCE, swap pick 3 for pick 9), and pick 9.

That's a FB, CHB, AA Ruck and 2 top ten gun midfielders to go with Buddy & Patton (inc. picks 9, 10 and 19). Even Sheedy would at least listen to that, before completely dismissing it! :)

If that can't seal the deal, fine. Being that we have already formally approached GWS, I'd like us to see the process through and see if we can get what we want.

[Greystache]

The last seven #1 pick are;

Whitifeld
Patton
D Swallow
Scully
Watts
Kreuzer
Gibbs

Not many on that list I would swap a proven gun for, let alone a couple of guns and a top 5 draft pick. It's staggering how inflated the value of some things become as soon as trade talk begins.

Boyd may become a gun, but Gibbs, Scully, and Kreuzer were all "guaranteed guns" too.

[Remi Moses]

But are we not half way through the 5-6 year period?

I propose we abort operation get Tom Boyd.

Why? McCartney said we're not going to be any good for 5 to 6 years.
Which time Minson will be long gone.

[LostDoggy]

There will be good key forwards next year. Boyd is clearly looking the goods but he feels overinflated because this draft has limited "stories" attached to it. Trading or not trading for Boyd is unlikely to win us a premiership but could cost us one. I still say the Judd trade was a mistake for the blues. Lord knows they could use Kennedy more than Judd in their premiership window. I get the argument he changes their culture and I get he's a champion but they paid and paid hard in the end to get him and no flag to show for it. I'm officially bored by the Sheedy circus (although I'm clearly not bored enough to cease posting on the issue!!!!!). :)

[Remi Moses]

Judd's carried that side since he's been there.
West coast didn't want to trade him, and made the best of a bad situation.
Everybody would have traded for Judd

[Ghost Dog]

I'm convinced the whole she-bang is more to do with putting GWS in the news.
And Greystache made an exellent point. Why get so excited over a speculative number 1, when history shows a pick of any inside the top eight is more than often as good as number 1.

[LostDoggy]

Judd's carried that side since he's been there.
West coast didn't want to trade him, and made the best of a bad situation.
Everybody would have traded for Judd

I get that too and my opinion is firmly in the minority. My issue is it hasn't taken them close to a flag (and won't in my opinion). In hindsight, played out correctly, would they be in a better boat with Kennedy, pick 3 and pick 20. With good drafting I think they might well be closer to a flag. I think they've shot the race with their current list. Overpaying for anyone - even a Judd or Ablett is fraught with danger.

[LostDoggy]

I guess it just shits us that we've never had key forwards come through in the past 20+ years after Beasley, apart from Grant.

20 years is a long time to go without a KP forward, and now Johnny come lately who's had all the kids for the last couple of years, the Aints (right when they need one to replace Kosi and Roo), or the friggin' Centrelinkers of the AFL - Melbourne all get a go when we've been the honest guys, played, tried, overachieved, and now bottom out - right smack bang in the middle of a dual team expansion phase.

FMD !

Anyway, end rant :)

[Sedat]

I guess it just shits us that we've never had key forwards come through in the past 20+ years after Beasley, apart from Grant.
We've had plenty, unfortunately they've all been shithouse :D

(honourable exceptions to Cooky and Loaf)

[Ghost Dog]

I guess it just shits us that we've never had key forwards come through in the past 20+ years after Beasley, apart from Grant.

20 years is a long time to go without a KP forward, and now Johnny come lately who's had all the kids for the last couple of years, the Aints (right when they need one to replace Kosi and Roo), or the friggin' Centrelinkers of the AFL - Melbourne all get a go when we've been the honest guys, played, tried, overachieved, and now bottom out - right smack bang in the middle of a dual team expansion phase.

FMD !

Anyway, end rant :)

Barry Hall says hello. Very much enjoyed watching him play. There's a small trophy cabinet at the Western Bulldogs Museum that would be minus one cup without him.

We've had plenty, unfortunately they've all been shithouse :D

(honourable exceptions to Cooky and Loaf)

You were never big on Barry were you Sedat? Yet he gave guys like Liam Jones a real lesson on how a real KPF lives and breathes.
The only player on our list in the last ten years that opponents genuinely feared.
And when he lined up for goal, the conclusion was very seldom in doubt.

[Hotdog60]

Barry Hall says hello. Very much enjoyed watching him play. There's a small trophy cabinet at the Western Bulldogs Museum that would be minus one cup without him.


You were never big on Barry were you Sedat? yet he gave guys like Liam Jones a real lesson on what a KPF looks like.

Yes but we didn't have the benefit of Hall for 10 plus years. It would be nice to snare a forward has fullbacks quaking in their shoes for the best part of a decade.
Plus a forward that would take the coleman 3 or 4 times too.

[Sedat]

Barry Hall says hello. Very much enjoyed watching him play. There's a small trophy cabinet at the Western Bulldogs Museum that would be minus one cup without him.


You were never big on Barry were you Sedat? yet he gave guys like Liam Jones a real lesson on what a KPF looks like.
How quickly we forget! Big Bad Bustling added to the list of honorable exceptions as well.

I was having visions of Ben Sexton, Jon Ballantyne, Allen Jakovich, Nathan Saunders, Jesse Wells, Tim Walsh, Wayde Skipper, Paul O'Shea, etc.. when talking about the cavalcade of traded/drafted key talls that have added up to 2/5ths of stuff-all return for us over the years. Daniel Hargreaves can also be added to this list but not because of a lack of talent.

[LostDoggy]

Talking about organic KP forwards GD, not trade-ins at the end of their career (i loved Barry by the way).

[Remi Moses]

I guess it just shits us that we've never had key forwards come through in the past 20+ years after Beasley, apart from Grant.

20 years is a long time to go without a KP forward, and now Johnny come lately who's had all the kids for the last couple of years, the Aints (right when they need one to replace Kosi and Roo), or the friggin' Centrelinkers of the AFL - Melbourne all get a go when we've been the honest guys, played, tried, overachieved, and now bottom out - right smack bang in the middle of a dual team expansion phase.

FMD !

Anyway, end rant :)

We're all frustrated . I think it's important the club don't go down the track of a fringe player as a Key Forward. It's failed dismally in the past and will continue to do so.
What's going to really irritate me us if they pick up someone else with pick 1 and we have pick 4!!

[Ghost Dog]

Talking about organic KP forwards GD, not trade-ins at the end of their career (i loved Barry by the way).

Organic? as opposed to what, Cybernetic? :D
Roughy is going to cane it as a HF. Just watch.

[LostDoggy]

Talking about organic KP forwards GD, not trade-ins at the end of their career (i loved Barry by the way).

I do really love your passion. Here's some light at the end of the tunnel for you. I think next year will have a few tall options. Maybe not as good as Boyd but Boyd might break his ankle preseason (hope not - always feel like I'm putting the mozz on when I do that) and it would be a moot point anyway. We aren't going to be in a premiership window for several years so there will be other drafts beyond that also. We need to get several good young men in several good young positions. It's not a race - it's an end game. Frankly I'd rather stay 4 years behind GWS and GCS who will likley have (respectively) the most talent laden forward line and most talent laden midfield line ever seen. The AFL has set them both up to dominate a la Brissie 01-03. Fine. Whatever. Lets let them kick the bejesus out of each other for a few years whilst we continue to build and have a crack at them both when they run out of puff. That's our best hope it would seem. We need to recruit better and smarter than Melb FC and the Saints and thus far we are off to a good start. I still say swop pick 4 for 2 x teen picks 12/14 or whatever if we can to get a broader base of quality players in as quickly as we can. There is hope! It's slim but it's there and it's name is not necessarily Tom Boyd.

[Ghost Dog]

I do really love your passion. Here's some light at the end of the tunnel for you. I think next year will have a few tall options. Maybe not as good as Boyd but Boyd might break his ankle preseason (hope not - always feel like I'm putting the mozz on when I do that) and it would be a moot point anyway. We aren't going to be in a premiership window for several years so there will be other drafts beyond that also. We need to get several good young men in several good young positions. It's not a race - it's an end game. Frankly I'd rather stay 4 years behind GWS and GCS who will likley have (respectively) the most talent laden forward line and most talent laden midfield line ever seen. The AFL has set them both up to dominate a la Brissie 01-03. Fine. Whatever. Lets let them kick the bejesus out of each other for a few years whilst we continue to build and have a crack at them both when they run out of puff. That's our best hope it would seem. We need to recruit better and smarter than Melb FC and the Saints and thus far we are off to a good start. I still say swop pick 4 for 2 x teen picks 12/14 or whatever if we can to get a broader base of quality players in as quickly as we can. There is hope! It's slim but it's there and it's name is not necessarily Tom Boyd.

Do we really need one now? Would have killed for one in 2008-2009 but now, I'd rather we have 3 or so very decent mobile types you can slot into different positions for the price of a Boyd we are going to have to pay overs for anyway.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I guess it just shits us that we've never had key forwards come through in the past 20+ years after Beasley, apart from Grant.

20 years is a long time to go without a KP forward, and now Johnny come lately who's had all the kids for the last couple of years, the Aints (right when they need one to replace Kosi and Roo), or the friggin' Centrelinkers of the AFL - Melbourne all get a go when we've been the honest guys, played, tried, overachieved, and now bottom out - right smack bang in the middle of a dual team expansion phase.

FMD !

Anyway, end rant :)
Top rant.

[LostDoggy]

Yes but we didn't have the benefit of Hall for 10 plus years. It would be nice to snare a forward has fullbacks quaking in their shoes for the best part of a decade.
Plus a forward that would take the coleman 3 or 4 times too.

Close to unreailstic, there's been 2-3 players that have ever done that since the medal was changed to the coleman

[Hotdog60]

Close to unreailstic, there's been 2-3 players that have ever done that since the medal was changed to the coleman

I can dream can't I :)

I would be nice to snare a Peter Hudson type or Dunstall

[LostDoggy]

I do really love your passion. Here's some light at the end of the tunnel for you. I think next year will have a few tall options. Maybe not as good as Boyd but Boyd might break his ankle preseason (hope not - always feel like I'm putting the mozz on when I do that) and it would be a moot point anyway. We aren't going to be in a premiership window for several years so there will be other drafts beyond that also. We need to get several good young men in several good young positions. It's not a race - it's an end game. Frankly I'd rather stay 4 years behind GWS and GCS who will likley have (respectively) the most talent laden forward line and most talent laden midfield line ever seen. The AFL has set them both up to dominate a la Brissie 01-03. Fine. Whatever. Lets let them kick the bejesus out of each other for a few years whilst we continue to build and have a crack at them both when they run out of puff. That's our best hope it would seem. We need to recruit better and smarter than Melb FC and the Saints and thus far we are off to a good start. I still say swop pick 4 for 2 x teen picks 12/14 or whatever if we can to get a broader base of quality players in as quickly as we can. There is hope! It's slim but it's there and it's name is not necessarily Tom Boyd.

Excellent points SD. Just on the last point, I wonder if GWS would consider 10 and their opening second rounder for our pick 4. Give them the chance to trade on for a player of need and us the chance to trade per that point you mentioned. Throw on that nasty phrase ' priority pick', and that's a fair dig at the draft.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Excellent points SD. Just on the last point, I wonder if GWS would consider 10 and their opening second rounder for our pick 4. Give them the chance to trade on for a player of need and us the chance to trade per that point you mentioned. Throw on that nasty phrase ' priority pick', and that's a fair dig at the draft.

I don't like the idea of trading a top 5 pick for lower picks. Having a top 5 pick won't happen often.....unless you're melbourne

[bulldogtragic]

I don't like the idea of trading a top 5 pick for lower picks. Having a top 5 pick won't happen often.....unless you're melbourne
Two Hrovats or one Stringer....

Jake every day.

[LostDoggy]

Two Hrovats or one Stringer....

Jake every day.

Would normally concur and certainly wouldn't do it every year but I feel we could get a Bartel/Christianson if we trade or just a Bartel if we keep the pick. Everything past pick three upto about 23 looks like a sea of grey this draft (all look very talented don't get me wrong just a very even spread) so it makes sense to me.

FWIW - No way I would have done it last year.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Would normally concur and certainly wouldn't do it every year but I feel we could get a Bartel/Christianson if we trade or just a Bartel if we keep the pick. Everything past pick three upto about 23 looks like a sea of grey this draft (all look very talented don't get me wrong just a very even spread) so it makes sense to me.

FWIW - No way I would have done it last year.

Do you have doubts over Kelly in this draft? Who do you rate top 3?

[Remi Moses]

If people think Jesse White and Gumbleton are part of our forward options .
They're going to be massively disappointed.

[Remi Moses]

I don't like the idea of trading a top 5 pick for lower picks. Having a top 5 pick won't happen often.....unless you're melbourne

Definitely concur with these thoughts .
You don't give up a pick four

[LostDoggy]

Do you have doubts over Kelly in this draft? Who do you rate top 3?

I could happily take any of Sheed, Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Kelly
(I still think Melb will rightly take Aish), Freeman, Crouch, Koladiashnji (think that's right..?) or Bontempelli (another toughy) dependant on type needed for the club that has the pick 4. I could almost as happily see the dogs stretch pick 4 and take McCarthy or Gardiner. So there's 11 players I personally, and I'm not an expert but I've been involved with and watched allot of footy at this level over the years, rate really evenly. So my own value judgement says why not trade the early pick and be happy with whatever we can get with the GWS pick 10 and have Jaksch thrown in as the value add. I can take a good player and get a bonus pick 12 forward that way.

Of course it all falls over if Jaksch hasn't gone on with it this year in Sydney. By all accounts we are interested in him through so it seems a sensible path to me.

Again - a big part of me won't be upset If we keep the early pick and use it because it probably means Dalrymple sees something early I don't and so he should given he's a paid expert. But that's the why of what seems radical at first glance.

And finally. Everyone else is right that 90 percent of the time you'd be a fool to trade a pick in the top 5 :)

[bulldogtragic]

I could happily take any of Sheed, Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Kelly
(I still think Melb will rightly take Aish), Freeman, Crouch, Koladiashnji (think that's right..?) or Bontempelli (another toughy) dependant on type needed for the club that has the pick 4. I could almost as happily see the dogs stretch pick 4 and take McCarthy or Gardiner. So there's 11 players I personally, and I'm not an expert but I've been involved with and watched allot of footy at this level over the years, rate really evenly. So my own value judgement says why not trade the early pick and be happy with whatever we can get with the GWS pick 10 and have Jaksch thrown in as the value add. I can take a good player and get a bonus pick 12 forward that way.

Of course it all falls over if Jaksch hasn't gone on with it this year in Sydney. By all accounts we are interested in him through so it seems a sensible path to me.

Again - a big part of me won't be upset If we keep the early pick and use it because it probably means Dalrymple sees something early I don't and so he should given he's a paid expert. But that's the why of what seems radical at first glance.

And finally. Everyone else is right that 90 percent of the time you'd be a fool to trade a pick in the top 5 :)
I'm trying to keep up SD. :) so if I'm understanding you... Pick 4 (and 23) = picks 10, 19 and Jaksch. (Plus 3rd and 4th round upgrades which wouldn't effect them anyway).

Would you do that knowing what you know?

[LostDoggy]

I'm trying to keep up SD. :) so if I'm understanding you... Pick 4 (and 23) = picks 10, 19 and Jaksch. (Plus 3rd and 4th round upgrades which wouldn't effect them anyway).

Would you do that knowing what you know?

It's more guessing what I'm guessing but yes that's what I'd do personally.

[Mofra]

If people think Jesse White and Gumbleton are part of our forward options .
They're going to be massively disappointed.
I'd settle for a home grown Petrie level player - someone to just build a forwardline around, a genuine contested marking option if we can't spot up a lead. I think Jones will, eventually, get to that level.

With a Roughead type 2nd ruck/forward and some mid sized marking options who can also snare the ground ball (Grant/Stringer) we only havr two more spots to fill - one will be an agile small (Dahl/Hunter) and the other can be changed to suit conditions - a "stopper" like Addison (although I prefer not to play defensive forwards), ideally a gun marking forward or a second clever small.

We have the makings of a decent forwardline already, they're just miles off development.

[Mofra]

I'm trying to keep up SD. :) so if I'm understanding you... Pick 4 (and 23) = picks 10, 19 and Jaksch. (Plus 3rd and 4th round upgrades which wouldn't effect them anyway).
4 & 23 for 10, 19 & Jaksch?

In a heartbeat.

[Ghost Dog]

The whole thing has become as complex as a cold war prisoner swap and I'm defecting to another thread! :)

[Twodogs]

4 & 23 for 10, 19 & Jaksch?

In a heartbeat.

It'd be hard not to laugh as you made your way out of the room with the papers in your hand.


The whole thing has become as complex as a cold war prisoner swap and I'm defecting to another thread! :)


That'd be the Checkpoint Charlie thread?

[bulldogtragic]

Sheedy on TSFS.

If we have pick one well get another key forward.

Make of it what you will.

[Remi Moses]

The only issue is Sheedy's not coaching them next year.
I think GWS are bluffing with pick 1 to be honest.
They'll probably trade for the other picks, but their criteria isn't going to be met.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

That scpaige website referred to here quoted Phil Davis as saying Boyd, Franklin and bellchambers will be at gws next year

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Macca again said we would be looking to bolster and further develop the forward line. Not suggesting he meant Boyd but clearly it's his biggest area of concern.

[GVGjr]

Macca again said we would be looking to bolster and further develop the forward line. Not suggesting he meant Boyd but clearly it's his biggest area of concern.

I'm just guessing here but I think it means we will either trade for a forward (it might keep some players interested in us because the can see the light) or that we might use one of our first two picks on a key forward in the draft.

[G-Mo77]

I'm just guessing here but I think it means we will either trade for a forward (it might keep some players interested in us because the can see the light) or that we might use one of our first two picks on a key forward in the draft.

There is a lot of speculation out there about forward at other clubs, we've all read it. One of the media outlets mentioned Jesse White this morning. Not sure on his contract status but he's got to do a ton to keep his place. Sadly for him he'll probably lose his place when everyone is healthy. If he holds his place maybe Sam Reid falls behind in their pecking order.

[bornadog]

There is a lot of speculation out there about forward at other clubs, we've all read it. One of the media outlets mentioned Jesse White this morning. Not sure on his contract status but he's got to do a ton to keep his place. Sadly for him he'll probably lose his place when everyone is healthy. If he holds his place maybe Sam Reid falls behind in their pecking order.

I wouldn't mind Sam Reid.l Swannies have a lot of options up forward now that Tippett has joined them, as for Jesse White, not impressed.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Would be nice to chisel Reid out of there if we can.

[bulldogtragic]

I see Reid and Jones as identical. Big marking CHF with kicking accuracy issues. Not sure we need 2.

[LostDoggy]

Reid will be a long term project with them. They'll give him plenty of time and with Tippet the focus won't be on him as much. With Goodes retiring and White likely moving there's still a place for him in their forwardline.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I see Reid and Jones as identical. Big marking CHF with kicking accuracy issues. Not sure we need 2.

Tend to agree.

Plus, he won't be going anywhere.

[GVGjr]

I wouldn't mind Sam Reid.l Swannies have a lot of options up forward now that Tippett has joined them, as for Jesse White, not impressed.

From memory, Reid signed a long term contract earlier in the year so I can't see it being an option. We had our chance to get him and preferred Tutt.

[G-Mo77]

From memory, Reid signed a long term contract earlier in the year so I can't see it being an option. We had our chance to get him and preferred Tutt.

I think it was last season, no harm in putting the feelers out especially with a squeeze in his position. I think they'll end up moving him back though.

[GVGjr]

I think it was last season, no harm in putting the feelers out especially with a squeeze in his position. I think they'll end up moving him back though.

Which is his best position I think,

[Twodogs]

From memory, Reid signed a long term contract earlier in the year so I can't see it being an option. We had our chance to get him and preferred Tutt.


Or the AFL could have left the F/S rule as it was and we could have picked him up as a third rounder just like Geelong picked up several of their premiership stars. After all he spent most of his life qualified as a F/S pick for us.

[LostDoggy]

That scpaige website referred to here quoted Phil Davis as saying Boyd, Franklin and bellchambers will be at gws next year

It was very tounge in cheek - remarks he made on the Sunday morning footy show over on 7. They kept throwing names at him and he did a Sheedy and just kept saying "yes - we'll have them at GWS next year". Wouldn't read anything into it. They'll have Boyd. He's best available in yet another compromised draft remembering pick 1 is really pick 3. Hogan would still go before him if both were available.

All of which really tells us that he's not the messiah...

[LostDoggy]

'next!'

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It was very tounge in cheek - remarks he made on the Sunday morning footy show over on 7. They kept throwing names at him and he did a Sheedy and just kept saying "yes - we'll have them at GWS next year". Wouldn't read anything into it. They'll have Boyd. He's best available in yet another compromised draft remembering pick 1 is really pick 3. Hogan would still go before him if both were available.

All of which really tells us that he's not the messiah...

With pick 4 that we may now finish with, im kind of glad its a compromised draft as otherwise it would have meant we just missed out on landing one of Martin, Hogan or Boyd!

I agree though, he has been overhyped. I mean he has the body of Tom Hawkins already so he should be expected to dominate against regular 18 year olds. I still believe he will be a star though, but the hype is a bit OTT

[mjp]

Hogan would still go before him if both were available.



I think Jesse is a better player but doubt he would be picked before Boyd.

It isn't all about talent/physical capability when it comes to the draft.

[Happy Days]

Hogan had 25 touches and 3 goals on the weekend, and looked absolutely lethal doing so.

[mjp]

Hogan had 25 touches and 3 goals on the weekend, and looked absolutely lethal doing so.

Does this mean you are agreeing with me or just stating a fact?

[China Dog]

Looks like Melbourne could end up with Tom Boyd, due to a possible priority pick. Hogan and Boyd would make a pretty good long term attack.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Looks like Melbourne could end up with Tom Boyd, due to a possible priority pick. Hogan and Boyd would make a pretty good long term attack.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-premiership/melbourne-could-snatch-wonderkid-tom-boyd-from-gws-if-handed-a-priority-draft-pick-by-the-afl/story-e6frf3e3-1226688390906

Absolute joke if Melbourne are handed a priority pick. What message is that sending to other clubs in regards to tanking? They already have a host of top picks and were given an extra bonus for Tom Scully.

[KT31]

Looks like Melbourne could end up with Tom Boyd, due to a possible priority pick. Hogan and Boyd would make a pretty good long term attack.

If this happens it will be a disgrace, IMO it will also be the last straw for a lot of other clubs supporters and they will start (if not already enticed) by other codes.
Melbourne deserve nothing, I'm not even sure they should still be in existence.
We have been on struggle street for the last couple of years and in a already compromised draft I still don't think we deserve a priority pick.
But if the Dee's should be granted one, I would be asking where is ours.
Send them down to the VFL and bring up the next VLF or SANFL flag winner.

[azabob]

[Absolute joke if Melbourne are handed a priority pick. What message is that sending to other clubs in regards to tanking? They already have a host of top picks and were given an extra bonus for Tom Scully.

So if the AFL awards Melbourne a priority pick, does that mean if Essendon lose points and finish at the bottom of the ladder do they then get the number one pick??

Insanity on all accounts....

[LostDoggy]

Sorry, why would they get a priority pick IN FRONT of their ladder position pick?

This article is just dribble, surely?

I know it's up to the AFL discretion - now - but in 2006 the PP was amended that if a team got less than 16.5 points across two seasons, added together, then a PP could be awarded before the first round - i.e what this article is saying. The Dees have managed to shit in more than 16.5 points in 12 & 13 together.

They've blown more picks than a dyslexic hooker FFS !

I'd write my first letter of disgust to the AFL.

[chef]

Aren't priority picks now awarded at the end of the first round?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Aren't priority picks now awarded at the end of the first round?

Not really sure how it works now but the new Melbourne CEO has asked for a pre-draft pick. Clearly the culture of that club is not going to change...

[LostDoggy]

I have a feeling I read somewhere PP's would factor in when the last premiership was won as well. Should we apply for pre draft picks 1 through 5 on that basis......????

Maybe Melb/Saints and ourselves should get picks 1-15? This is more shambolic than the current scum debarcle if this gets through.

[LostDoggy]

I have a feeling I read somewhere PP's would factor in when the last premiership was won as well. Should we apply for pre draft picks 1 through 5 on that basis......????


That is correct. It's a criteria they can use.

[LostDoggy]

I think Jesse is a better player but doubt he would be picked before Boyd.

It isn't all about talent/physical capability when it comes to the draft.

You could put Boyd, Hogan and Martin in a hat and I could quite happily pick a name out blind. They are the true top 3 in a compromised draft andwhether Boyd is significantly better than the others I would happily debate. The three all have a very good chance to have excellent careers but are any of them worth selling the farm for? Clearly we felt not with Martin and we'll see whether we were right or wrong over the next decade.

There are a host of underage KPP prospects that have every chance of being early picks next year from Goddard, McCarlin, Durdin and Waterman. All have a good chance they could go on with it and go early next year. I assume WA will throw up a name or too as well so a fairly healthy range. I still think Jaksch would be a great fit given he played with Hrovat and MacRae at Carey and is clearly close to them in his tweets. He looked very good although will likely be somewhat similar in skill set to Jones IMO.

I just don't want to give away the farm albeit I do think Boyd would be the perfect foil for the rest of our forward line and I think he'll have a great career.

[Bulldog4life]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-premiership/melbourne-could-snatch-wonderkid-tom-boyd-from-gws-if-handed-a-priority-draft-pick-by-the-afl/story-e6frf3e3-1226688390906

Absolute joke if Melbourne are handed a priority pick. What message is that sending to other clubs in regards to tanking? They already have a host of top picks and were given an extra bonus for Tom Scully.

Agree but the following in the article is what intrigued me. "Melbourne chief executive Peter Jackson is believed to have asked for the pre-draft priority pick in his submission to the AFL on a bail-out package to save the club".

Now we all know the AFL put Jackson in there to fix the place up and in their words or similar "We need a strong Melbourne" plus they are investing a lot of money into Melbourne too. If Jackson has asked for the pre-draft priority pick it it wouldn't surprise me at all if the AFL gave it to Melbourne.

[bulldogtragic]

I think we (the public) are being primed by the AFL, via the media.

Smart money has to be on Melbourne getting it.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I think we (the public) are being primed by the AFL, via the media.

Smart money has to be on Melbourne getting it.

Right. So instead of trying to win games we should tank and lose so we will be rewarded with loads of draft picks. But wait, the AFL removed priority picks to avoid teams doing this.......:confused: :rolleyes: If Melbourne turn this around and become a force in a few years the AFL will be sitting in its own sh*t again as teams will be trying to tank AGAIN.

Absolute farce of a league

[Remi Moses]

Agree entirely^^ How on earth can you fine a club for tanking then give them a priority pick?
It's in their best interests to lose this week!! Just bizarre!!
Port Adelaide managed to drag themselves of the floor by getting off field and recruiting well.
Why the HELL can't Melbourne??
If they do get a priority pick they should be forced to trade it!!
Complete joke if this happens

[Happy Days]

Does this mean you are agreeing with me or just stating a fact?

I can't agree with you fully because I've never seen Boyd play but if he's better than what I saw from Hogan than he must be outrageously good.

[mjp]

You could put Boyd, Hogan and Martin in a hat and I could quite happily pick a name out blind. They are the true top 3 in a compromised draft andwhether Boyd is significantly better than the others I would happily debate. The three all have a very good chance to have excellent careers but are any of them worth selling the farm for? Clearly we felt not with Martin and we'll see whether we were right or wrong over the next decade.

There are a host of underage KPP prospects that have every chance of being early picks next year from Goddard, McCarlin, Durdin and Waterman. All have a good chance they could go on with it and go early next year. I assume WA will throw up a name or too as well so a fairly healthy range. I still think Jaksch would be a great fit given he played with Hrovat and MacRae at Carey and is clearly close to them in his tweets. He looked very good although will likely be somewhat similar in skill set to Jones IMO.

I just don't want to give away the farm albeit I do think Boyd would be the perfect foil for the rest of our forward line and I think he'll have a great career.

Martin is on another level than Boyd and Hogan...injury the only concern. I would still pick Jesse first because:

- He plays key position.
- He can play back if needed...even midfield at a pinch in the way that Brown and Carey once did.
- He likes to hurt people.

But...he wouldn't interview well and Boyd will + Boyd is Victorian therefore Boyd would have been pick one.

Waterman as an early pick next year? Can't see it and he is father-son anyway.

[anfo27]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-premiership/melbourne-could-snatch-wonderkid-tom-boyd-from-gws-if-handed-a-priority-draft-pick-by-the-afl/story-e6frf3e3-1226688390906

Absolute joke if Melbourne are handed a priority pick. What message is that sending to other clubs in regards to tanking? They already have a host of top picks and were given an extra bonus for Tom Scully.

As soon as i saw the article was written by Jon Ralph I didn't bother reading it. No journo writes more crap than this bloke. Not even worth talking about this story.

[LostDoggy]

Martin is on another level than Boyd and Hogan...injury the only concern. I would still pick Jesse first because:

- He plays key position.
- He can play back if needed...even midfield at a pinch in the way that Brown and Carey once did.
- He likes to hurt people.

But...he wouldn't interview well and Boyd will + Boyd is Victorian therefore Boyd would have been pick one.

Waterman as an early pick next year? Can't see it and he is father-son anyway.

Fair enough. I defer to your knowledge of both those WA boys. Looking forward to seeing all three of them play next year. Just hope Martin saves his worst games vs the dogs. Given we have buckleys of getting Boyd and Hogan is gonski have you got any thoughts on your first preference on how and who we can get an angry, hurting people forward? Any good forwards in the WAFL you would target? Jaksch? Thorp? Or next years draft?

[Twodogs]

As soon as i saw the article was written by Jon Ralph I didn't bother reading it. No journo writes more crap than this bloke. Not even worth talking about this story.


Melbourne could snatch wonderkid Tom Boyd from GWS if handed a priority draft pick by the AFL





Wonderkid? Wunderkind is the word.

[LostDoggy]

Fair enough. I defer to your knowledge of both those WA boys. Looking forward to seeing all three of them play next year. Just hope Martin saves his worst games vs the dogs. Given we have buckleys of getting Boyd and Hogan is gonski have you got any thoughts on your first preference on how and who we can get an angry, hurting people forward? Any good forwards in the WAFL you would target? Jaksch? Thorp? Or next years draft?

Jonathon Marsh could be that hurting angry forward. Just not sure that the forwardline will be his position in the future. He's fast and agile, not a massive unit, but he's got grunt. He could go anywhere from end first round to end second imo.

Darcy Hourigan is a bulky forward from SA, who's also played down back in the SANFL. He's another that coudl fit into the angry forward mould.

Other forward option could be Darcy Gardiner who could be nasty piece of work in the future. He's got plenty of attitude but is one who could go early also.

There's Luke Reynolds from SA who moves and plays a bit like Scott Lucas and Mitch Harvey also from SA who fitted in well with SA's three-pronged tall attack in the championships with Hourigan and Reynolds.

Cameron McCarthy from WA looked good during the champs until he hurt his leg baldy. He's raw and needs bulk and could go anywhere from 1st round to end of second.

Doubt any of these players would last to our third round picks.

[Mofra]

Doubt any of these players would last to our third round picks.
Conlon?
Big kid, barely played this year due injury but he did train with us last summer so we would have got a good look at him.

[LostDoggy]

Don't know anything about him sorry Mofra. What's his credentials ?

[LostDoggy]

Jonathon Marsh could be that hurting angry forward. Just not sure that the forwardline will be his position in the future. He's fast and agile, not a massive unit, but he's got grunt. He could go anywhere from end first round to end second imo.

Darcy Hourigan is a bulky forward from SA, who's also played down back in the SANFL. He's another that coudl fit into the angry forward mould.

Other forward option could be Darcy Gardiner who could be nasty piece of work in the future. He's got plenty of attitude but is one who could go early also.

There's Luke Reynolds from SA who moves and plays a bit like Scott Lucas and Mitch Harvey also from SA who fitted in well with SA's three-pronged tall attack in the championships with Hourigan and Reynolds.

Cameron McCarthy from WA looked good during the champs until he hurt his leg baldy. He's raw and needs bulk and could go anywhere from 1st round to end of second.

Doubt any of these players would last to our third round picks.

I'm personally uninspired by all of the above with one exception. McCarthy is very raw but has shown good glimpses and I'll happily take him if we could orchestrate a mid first round pick somehow. Marsh just doesn't look like a forward, Gardiner isn't that great and I really don't rate the SA forwards like many seem to be doing. Bulky is a good word for Hourigan. Selfish and lazy are two others that I equate with the way he plays. Pick 5 is too early for McCarthy and I'm not convinced he'll last to our 2nd. Conlon probably will though and is a likely target you would think.

[GVGjr]

I'm personally uninspired by all of the above with one exception. McCarthy is very raw but has shown good glimpses and I'll happily take him if we could orchestrate a mid first round pick somehow. Marsh just doesn't look like a forward, Gardiner isn't that great and I really don't rate the SA forwards like many seem to be doing. Bulky is a good word for Hourigan. Selfish and lazy are two others that I equate with the way he plays. Pick 5 is too early for McCarthy and I'm not convinced he'll last to our 2nd. Conlon probably will though and is a likely target you would think.

I liken Hourigan to Matthew Bate. Interesting that you rate McCarthy so highly.
I think we can all understand why we would be interested in an athletic tall forward. I think you are right that he would probably go somewhere between our likely picks.

[1eyedog]

I'm personally uninspired by all of the above with one exception. McCarthy is very raw but has shown good glimpses and I'll happily take him if we could orchestrate a mid first round pick somehow. Marsh just doesn't look like a forward, Gardiner isn't that great and I really don't rate the SA forwards like many seem to be doing. Bulky is a good word for Hourigan. Selfish and lazy are two others that I equate with the way he plays. Pick 5 is too early for McCarthy and I'm not convinced he'll last to our 2nd. Conlon probably will though and is a likely target you would think.

X2 on McCarthy, has come back from a bad injury as well so had the fortitude.

[westdog54]

Just throwing it out there, but GWS might not be holding all the cards come seasons end...

[LostDoggy]

Just throwing it out there, but GWS might not be holding all the cards come seasons end...

Yep. They're only one win behind. Melbourne should lose the rest. GWS have a game against Brisbane in a couple of rounds that is probably their best chance of winning another.

[Throughandthrough]

Jonathon Marsh could be that hurting angry forward. Just not sure that the forwardline will be his position in the future. He's fast and agile, not a massive unit, but he's got grunt. He could go anywhere from end first round to end second imo.

Darcy Hourigan is a bulky forward from SA, who's also played down back in the SANFL. He's another that coudl fit into the angry forward mould.

Other forward option could be Darcy Gardiner who could be nasty piece of work in the future. He's got plenty of attitude but is one who could go early also.

There's Luke Reynolds from SA who moves and plays a bit like Scott Lucas and Mitch Harvey also from SA who fitted in well with SA's three-pronged tall attack in the championships with Hourigan and Reynolds.

Cameron McCarthy from WA looked good during the champs until he hurt his leg baldy. He's raw and needs bulk and could go anywhere from 1st round to end of second.

Doubt any of these players would last to our third round picks.

I'm not as impressed by Hourigan and Reynolds as some other. And Hourigan is carrying a spare tyre, so i'd suggest he'll drop a LONG way in the draft.

[Happy Days]

I'm not as impressed by Hourigan and Reynolds as some other. And Hourigan is carrying a spare tyre, so i'd suggest he'll drop a LONG way in the draft.

I know it doesn't speak we'll to his commitment, but a spare tyre is about the easiest issue to deal with once he's at a footy club no?

[mjp]

I'm personally uninspired by all of the above with one exception. McCarthy is very raw but has shown good glimpses and I'll happily take him if we could orchestrate a mid first round pick somehow. Marsh just doesn't look like a forward, Gardiner isn't that great and I really don't rate the SA forwards like many seem to be doing. Bulky is a good word for Hourigan. Selfish and lazy are two others that I equate with the way he plays. Pick 5 is too early for McCarthy and I'm not convinced he'll last to our 2nd. Conlon probably will though and is a likely target you would think.

This is where it gets tricky.

Marsh has played forward for two minutes. McCarthy has played key forward all his life. Both have basically played 6-months of elite footy because:
- McCarthy was not an outstanding junior and preferred cricket.
- Marsh lived in the bush.

Because Hogan was unavailable due to the 17yo rule and Garstone broke his collar-bone, WA were basically forced to use them both as key forwards at the champs with support from bottom agers in Bevan and Keitel as well as mid-sizers such as Johnson.

McCarthy is lauded (and rightly so) for his performances, with everyone noting how comfortable he was, his clean hands, agility etc. But there was zero expectation.

Marsh is criticised by everyone (incorrectly) for not being comfortable as a forward and not knowing how to play the position...but he has only been playing there for two minutes.

Watch the game Marsh played against Metro and you will understand what a devastating talent he has the potential to become. Does he understand footy? Not really. Is he a 'nervous, hyper-active' kid? Absolutely. Is he the quickest kid in the draft? Of course!

More than happy with the hype re- McCarthy - he is going to be a good player. Dismiss Marsh at your peril though - he is the single most athletically gifted kid in the draft and he is desperate to make it...a smart side will find a role for him to play and will have a player with the potential of a Franklin on their hands.

[westdog54]

I know it doesn't speak we'll to his commitment, but a spare tyre is about the easiest issue to deal with once he's at a footy club no?

Yes and no, still takes two to tango when it comes to fitness and conditioning. Club can't cook all his meals for him and stalk him away from the club to make sure he's going for a jog every day.

[wimberga]

This is where it gets tricky.

Marsh has played forward for two minutes. McCarthy has played key forward all his life. Both have basically played 6-months of elite footy because:
- McCarthy was not an outstanding junior and preferred cricket.
- Marsh lived in the bush.

Because Hogan was unavailable due to the 17yo rule and Garstone broke his collar-bone, WA were basically forced to use them both as key forwards at the champs with support from bottom agers in Bevan and Keitel as well as mid-sizers such as Johnson.

McCarthy is lauded (and rightly so) for his performances, with everyone noting how comfortable he was, his clean hands, agility etc. But there was zero expectation.

Marsh is criticised by everyone (incorrectly) for not being comfortable as a forward and not knowing how to play the position...but he has only been playing there for two minutes.

Watch the game Marsh played against Metro and you will understand what a devastating talent he has the potential to become. Does he understand footy? Not really. Is he a 'nervous, hyper-active' kid? Absolutely. Is he the quickest kid in the draft? Of course!

More than happy with the hype re- McCarthy - he is going to be a good player. Dismiss Marsh at your peril though - he is the single most athletically gifted kid in the draft and he is desperate to make it...a smart side will find a role for him to play and will have a player with the potential of a Franklin on their hands.

Great insight there MJP - thank you for sharing.

How much interaction do the clubs have with coaches at under 18's level and how much do you really think they take on board?

[Topdog]

Yep. They're only one win behind. Melbourne should lose the rest. GWS have a game against Brisbane in a couple of rounds that is probably their best chance of winning another.

They'll be absolutely rank outsiders to beat Brisbane a side that have won 5 of their last 7. I expect Brisbane will start 40 point favourites for this game.

[LostDoggy]

No doubt TD, and well may their loses continue so the Demons don't walk straight into Tom Boyd, along with a bloody priority pick.

[westdog54]

Yep. They're only one win behind. Melbourne should lose the rest. GWS have a game against Brisbane in a couple of rounds that is probably their best chance of winning another.

I could just as easily see them pinching one off Gold Coast at home. Will it be Sheedy's last game in charge?

[Dancin' Douggy]

Sundays game against the swans made me more convinced we should move heaven and earth to get Tom Boyd.

For what seemed like the millionth time in my living memory, the difference between us and them was one big, tall, straight kicking, strong marking power forward.

I'VE HAD A GUTFULL of being the team that NEVER has that guy.

(please don't bring up Barry Hall, he was ours for a heartbeat)

Tom Boyd seems the type of destiny changing player we need.

The big franchise star.

You can never get 'em off another team.... (unless you're Sydney with extra money)

And they so rarely come up in the draft.
And even when they do.......... we just can't pick 'em.

And as far as paying overs goes. I almost think you can't pay overs.

Imagine the excitement if we landed him.

[LostDoggy]

Sundays game against the swans made me more convinced we should move heaven and earth to get Tom Boyd.

For what seemed like the millionth time in my living memory, the difference between us and them was one big, tall, straight kicking, strong marking power forward.

I'VE HAD A GUTFULL of being the team that NEVER has that guy.

(please don't bring up Barry Hall, he was ours for a heartbeat)

Tom Boyd seems the type of destiny changing player we need.

The big franchise star.

You can never get 'em off another team.... (unless you're Sydney with extra money)

And they so rarely come up in the draft.
And even when they do.......... we just can't pick 'em.

And as far as paying overs goes. I almost think you can't pay overs.

Imagine the excitement if we landed him.

I went through this stage a while back too DD. It's called being pissed off and irrational. Many of us have looked at it from the left side, right side, moon, 96 degree angle tc. Don't think any of the scenarios stack up with where we're going to finish, who finishes below us and who we have to give up e.g Griffen or Minson+ for TB.

[LostDoggy]

Historically number 1 draft picks don't often live up to expectation, not sure why people think Boyd will be different, wonder what people would say if we moved heaven and earth to get Jack Watts.

[bornadog]

Historically number 1 draft picks don't often live up to expectation, not sure why people think Boyd will be different, wonder what people would say if we moved heaven and earth to get Jack Watts.

or Nick Nat;) (who was the real number one)

[bulldogtragic]

Historically number 1 draft picks don't often live up to expectation, not sure why people think Boyd will be different, wonder what people would say if we moved heaven and earth to get Jack Watts.
Or Nick Riewoldt.

For every argument on this, there is an equal counter argument. The club has talked to GWS, I'll back the club either way. But if we some how landed Boyd, I think it could be a game changer for our club.

[Mofra]

Don't know anything about him sorry Mofra. What's his credentials ?
Hasn't played much this year due injury - ~197cm or thereabouts, some regarded him as potentially the second best KPF prospect available in the draft at the start of the year. Has some ruck potential but he'd be drafted as a project forward I'd imagine.

Only mentioned because he trained with us last January so we would have had a fair look at him - Stringer trained with us last year IIRC.

[Twodogs]

Historically number 1 draft picks don't often live up to expectation, not sure why people think Boyd will be different, wonder what people would say if we moved heaven and earth to get Jack Watts.


or Nick Nat;) (who was the real number one)


Or Nick Riewoldt.

For every argument on this, there is an equal counter argument. The club has talked to GWS, I'll back the club either way. But if we some how landed Boyd, I think it could be a game changer for our club.


Or Adam Cooney!

[LostDoggy]

Only way I can see it happening is if Coons goes for PLENTY to the Hawks and we can argue - Brownlow medalist, Pick 1 draft pick and the PLENTY = a 1st round pick straight after our initial pick. Similar to the Goddard scenario. You could then package up pick 5, 6 + moonbeams (maybe wood) for Boyd & Jaksch (pick 12) OR their pick 19 if they played hardball and maybe their third rounder. That would be roughly market value. We baulked at a similar deal this year to get Martin so I don't know if we would play this out. I'd be happy with the outcome though.

[bulldogsman]

Only way I can see it happening is if Coons goes for PLENTY to the Hawks and we can argue - Brownlow medalist, Pick 1 draft pick and the PLENTY = a 1st round pick straight after our initial pick. Similar to the Goddard scenario. You could then package up pick 5, 6 + moonbeams (maybe wood) for Boyd & Jaksch (pick 12) OR their pick 19 if they played hardball and maybe their third rounder. That would be roughly market value. We baulked at a similar deal this year to get Martin so I don't know if we would play this out. I'd be happy with the outcome though.

Doubt GWS will want more draft picks, they need good mature aged players.

[LostDoggy]

Doubt GWS will want more draft picks, they need good mature aged players.

Tend to agree except their history tells us they are draft addicts. Maybe they are over it by now. I don't see any way this deal gets done to be honest. Just reaching...

[DOG GOD]

It gws don't get buddy, then they would be idiotic not to take Boyd with #1.

[Twodogs]

Doubt GWS will want more draft picks, they need good mature aged players.

Get that deal done early then and they have plenty of time to turn what should be great picks into players.pick five alone would be worth two well established players

[Throughandthrough]

Was discussed in the media last week here that Cooney / Lyons may be a win/win.

Maybe someone's been reading my posts on here :)

[boydogs]

GWS are ahead of Melbourne on percentage now, and only one win behind. If they pass them, does that change the trading scenario given we would be dealing with Melbourne?

[bulldogtragic]

GWS are ahead of Melbourne on percentage now, and only one win behind. If they pass them, does that change the trading scenario given we would be dealing with Melbourne?
Melbourne won't trade pick 1.

[LostDoggy]

GWS are ahead of Melbourne on percentage now, and only one win behind. If they pass them, does that change the trading scenario given we would be dealing with Melbourne?

What are you thinking GG? There's no doubt Melbournes' needs are somewhat similar to GWS, particularly in the middle. Our pick 4 or five plus 2nd for TB? They'd get close to two ready made midfielders with their first two picks.

[bulldogtragic]

What are you thinking GG? There's no doubt Melbournes' needs are somewhat similar to GWS, particularly in the middle. Our pick 4 or five plus 2nd for TB? They'd get close to two ready made midfielders with their first two picks.
Melbourne would have pick 1 & and pick 2 in this scenario. I wouldn't trade either if I was them.

[LostDoggy]

Melbourne would have pick 1 & and pick 2 in this scenario. I wouldn't trade either if I was them.

With that possible priority scenario? Yeah, agree they'd have no need with the other handout and if they didn't take him the Saints would.

[boydogs]

What are you thinking GG? There's no doubt Melbournes' needs are somewhat similar to GWS, particularly in the middle. Our pick 4 or five plus 2nd for TB? They'd get close to two ready made midfielders with their first two picks.

Trading with GWS for pick 1 always seemed to be about rucks (Minson, Kreuzer, Leuenberger, McEvoy), with Melbourne it's probably more midfielders. Clay Smith + pick 4?

[bulldogtragic]

Trading with GWS for pick 1 always seemed to be about rucks (Minson, Kreuzer, Leuenberger, McEvoy), with Melbourne it's probably more midfielders. Clay Smith + pick 4?
If they get picks 1 and 2 they'd be mad. If I were them id get Aish with 2 and Boyd with one. I'd trade Clarke to Freo for a 1st rounder, say pick 15.

That's pick 1, 2, 15 and 20. $700,000 back out of the cap. Then target Daisy Thomas. Fwd line consisting of Boyd, Hogan, Dawes, Fitz, Watts and Howe. Plus 3 new top line mids and Daisy.

The AFL I reckon will give the PP. when they do, they should make them trade it (I.e. mini draft). Could be a better scenario than keep bailing them out.

I hope they don't finish last and they don't get the PP. but I'm not confident on either. We know the track record of tanking and rewards for tanking.

[Twodogs]

If they get picks 1 and 2 they'd be mad. If I were them id get Aish with 2 and Boyd with one. I'd trade Clarke to Freo for a 1st rounder, say pick 15.

That's pick 1, 2, 15 and 20. $700,000 back out of the cap. Then target Daisy Thomas. Fwd line consisting of Boyd, Hogan, Dawes, Fitz, Watts and Howe. Plus 3 new top line mids and Daisy.

The AFL I reckon will give the PP. when they do, they should make them trade it (I.e. mini draft). Could be a better scenario than keep bailing them out.

I hope they don't finish last and they don't get the PP. but I'm not confident on either. We know the track record of tanking and rewards for tanking.



Daisy is only interested in going to a Big Club-Carlton or similar.

[bulldogtragic]

Daisy is only interested in going to a Big Club-Carlton or similar.
If $800,000 and likely premierships won't get him, they will have pick 1 in the PSD. Target another gun and offer $800,000 to walk out and enter PSD.

They have plenty of options if they end up with pick 1. For mine, the strategic advantage of them having pick 1 is far too advantageous.

[Remi Moses]

They won't give them a pick after or before their first.
Port lost to them last season, and I reckon the outrage from every club would resonate loudly.
Don't think GWS will win another game

[Bulldog4life]

If we don't get a tall or talls this draft looks like there are a number of them available next year.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-08-07/tall-story-for-future



CLUBS are already looking at next year's NAB AFL Draft as a chance to boost their key position stocks with a wealth of tall prospects available at the end of 2014.

The AIS-AFL Academy level two squad for 2013/14 has been announced, with 14 members of the 31-man squad taller than 190cm.

A significant number of those are also seen as top-end talents, with Hugh Goddard, Patrick McCartin, Darcy Moore, Peter Wright and Jake Lever already identified as potential early draft selections.

Matthew Hammelmann, Matthew Ah Siu, Sam Durdin and Nicholas Coughlan are other tall, athletic types who have caught the eye of recruiters.

It is in contrast to this year's draft which lacks depth in key position players, apart from likely No.1 pick Tom Boyd.

McCartin was one of five new players added to the Academy having not made last year's level one group, alongside fellow Geelong Falcon Jackson Nelson, Claremont forward Sam Bevan, Sandringham Dragon Sean McLaren and South Australian Billy Stretch.

Stretch is the son of former Melbourne wingman Steven, who played 164 games for the Demons between 1986-93.

West Australian pair Clem Smith and Jarrod Pickett are already looming as early draft selections, while Queensland and New South Wales/ACT each have three impressive players in the squad.

Four South Australians and 12 Victorians will also be a part of the group, which will travel internationally and be a part of several camps over an eight-month period.

The level one AIS-AFL Academy squad has also been selected, headlined by nine Vic Country representatives. Players from the level one intake will be eligible for the 2015 draft.

The two squads will be the last of the Australian Institute of Sport's association with the AFL's Academy, with the AIS recently announcing it will part ways to focus on Olympic success.


Level Two

NSW/ACT: Isaac Heeney (Swans Academy/Cardiff Hawks), Liam Griffiths (GWS Academy/Ainslie), Nicholas Coughlan (GWS Academy/Murray Bushrangers/Albury)

South Australia: Billy Stretch (Glenelg/Henley), Mac Bower (Norwood/Payneham Norwood Union), Jesse Watchman (West Adelaide/Blackwood), Sam Durdin (West Adelaide/East Murray)

Queensland: Lachlan Weller (Suns Academy/Broadbeach), Liam Dawson (Lions Academy/Aspley), Matthew Hammelmann (Lions Academy/Morningside)

Vic Country: Jaden McGrath (Bendigo Pioneers/Kerang), Jackson Nelson (Geelong Falcons/St Mary’s), Patrick McCartin (Geelong Falcons/St Joseph’s), Daniel Capiron (Dandenong Stingrays/Edithvale-Aspendale), Tom Lamb (Dandenong Stingrays/Edithvale-Aspendale), Hugh Goddard (Geelong Falcons/Geelong Amateurs)

Vic Metro: Liam Duggan (Western Jets/Bacchus March FNC), Angus Brayshaw (Sandringham Dragons/Hampton Rovers), Jake Lever (Calder Cannons/Romsey), Darcy Moore (Oakleigh Chargers/Kew Comets), Peter Wright (Calder Cannons/Moonee Valley), Sean McLaren (Sandringham Dragons/Haileybury College), Duom Dawam (Western Jets/ Point Cook)

Western Australia: Jarrod Pickett (South Fremantle/Jandakot), Clem Smith (Perth/Wesley College), Bradley Walsh (Peel Thunder/Rockingham), Ryan Lim (Claremont/Hale School), Jermaine Miller-Lewis (South Fremantle/Armadale), Matthew Ah Siu (South Fremantle/Bullcreek), Sam Bevan (Claremont/Hale School)

Northern Territory: Nakia Cockatoo (NT Thunder/Southern Districts)


Level One

NSW/ACT: Dylan McDonald (Murray Bushrangers/Albury), Jacob Hopper (Murray Bushrangers/Leeton-Whitton), Jock Cornell (Murray Bushrangers/Mangoplah-Cue), Callum Mills (Swans Academy/North Sydney Swans)

South Australia: Maris Olekalns (North Adelaide/Broadview), Luke Partington (Port Adelaide/Tumba Bay), Stephen Tahana (North Adelaide/Gaza), Aaron Francis (West Adelaide/Loxton North), Ryan Burton (North Adelaide/PHOS Camden), Tim Sullivan (Glenelg/Port Macdonnell)

Queensland: Didymus Blanket (Cape York)

Vic Country: Darcy Parish (Geelong Falcons/Winchelsea), Darcy Tucker (North Ballarat Rebels/Horsham Saints), Rhys Mathieson (Geelong Falcons/Bell Park), Josh Dunkley (Gippsland Power/Sale), Jacob Weitering (Dandenong Stingrays/Mount Martha), Kieran Collins (Dandenong Stingrays/Langwarrin), Sam Skinner (Gippsland Power/Moe), Joshua Schache (Murray Bushrangers/Seymour), Gach Nyoun (Dandenong Stingrays/Narre Warren North Foxes)

Vic Metro: Nick O’Kearney (Calder Cannons/Keilor), James Parsons (Eastern Ranges/Norwood), Tom Wilson (Sandringham Dragons/East Sandringham), Dylan Atkins (Sandringham Dragons/Mordialloc-Braeside)

Western Australia: Kade Stewart (South Fremantle), Callum Ah Chee (South Fremantle), Yestin Eades (Swans Districts), Greg Clark (Subiaco)

Tasmania: Jake Sushames (North Launceston)

Northern Territory: Michael Hagan (Darwin)

[Murphy'sLore]

Didymus Blanket.

Best. Name. Ever.

[anfo27]

If they get picks 1 and 2 they'd be mad. If I were them id get Aish with 2 and Boyd with one. I'd trade Clarke to Freo for a 1st rounder, say pick 15.

That's pick 1, 2, 15 and 20. $700,000 back out of the cap. Then target Daisy Thomas. Fwd line consisting of Boyd, Hogan, Dawes, Fitz, Watts and Howe. Plus 3 new top line mids and Daisy.

The AFL I reckon will give the PP. when they do, they should make them trade it (I.e. mini draft). Could be a better scenario than keep bailing them out.

I hope they don't finish last and they don't get the PP. but I'm not confident on either. We know the track record of tanking and rewards for tanking.

Why would you trade Clark & get Boyd? If Clark played at a contender he'd win the Coleman medal. The dees want to improve as quickly as possible & trading Clark to get Boyd would not help them do this.

[Varangian]

What is the likelihood of the club entertaining the idea of putting up Minson (ouch) to get the GWS pick? Minson is providing first use for our young mids and is arguably fast tracking their development but will only be rucking for another two years, possibly three? Boyd will be a power forward for potentially ten years. He may be a Jack Watts but we may not get another chance to have a look at a number 1 draft pick who happens to be a power forward again for a very long time.

Thoughts?

[anfo27]

What is the likelihood of the club entertaining the idea of putting up Minson (ouch) to get the GWS pick? Minson is providing first use for our young mids and is arguably fast tracking their development but will only be rucking for another two years, possibly three? Boyd will be a power forward for potentially ten years. He may be a Jack Watts but we may not get another chance to have a look at a number 1 draft pick who happens to be a power forward again for a very long time.

Thoughts?

I'd entertain the idea but realistically i don't think it would happen. To trade Minson for an upgrade of 3 picks would be silly & GWS would not trade pick 1 for Will.

I think Bellchambers situation will play a part. GWS would be more interested in him & being out of contract won't have to give anything up to get him but if Belly re-signs then Minsons value will be at its highest.

[Remi Moses]

I'd entertain the idea but realistically i don't think it would happen. To trade Minson for an upgrade of 3 picks would be silly & GWS would not trade pick 1 for Will.

I think Bellchambers situation will play a part. GWS would be more interested in him & being out of contract won't have to give anything up to get him but if Belly re-signs then Minsons value will be at its highest.

I'd say it would be possible,in particular if Bellchambers re-signs.
I wouldn't discount GWS ( vital in that market) looking at a ruckman who is in his peak( Minson)
Might need a sweetener, if we gave them 4 they would most likely trade that for a top liner.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Daisy is only interested in going to a Big Club-Carlton or similar.

H can f off then.

[ReLoad]

What is the likelihood of the club entertaining the idea of putting up Minson (ouch) to get the GWS pick? Minson is providing first use for our young mids and is arguably fast tracking their development but will only be rucking for another two years, possibly three? Boyd will be a power forward for potentially ten years. He may be a Jack Watts but we may not get another chance to have a look at a number 1 draft pick who happens to be a power forward again for a very long time.

Thoughts?

I think the trade has legs.

Minnow and pick 4 for pick 1. Done deal, where do I sign?

[Bulldog4life]

I think the trade has legs.

Minnow and pick 4 for pick 1. Done deal, where do I sign?

If we win the next 3 games against Adelaide, Brisbane and Melbourne might have pick 5,6 or 7!

[SlimPickens]

If we win the next 3 games against Adelaide, Brisbane and Melbourne might have pick 5,6 or 7!

We won't change position and remember Adelaide don't have a pick in the first two rounds.

[Bulldog4life]

If we win the next 3 games against Adelaide, Brisbane and Melbourne might have pick 5,6 or 7!

Actually more like 5.

[bornadog]

I bet Carlton end up with Boyd.

[chef]

I think the trade has legs.

Minnow and pick 4 for pick 1. Done deal, where do I sign?

Rather keep Minson and pick 4. I'm sure the club(and Macca especially) wouldn't want to get rid of one of our leaders.

[azabob]

Rather keep Minson and pick 4. I'm sure the club(and Macca especially) wouldn't want to get rid of one of our leaders.

Agree with you chef.

[The Doctor]

Rather keep Minson and pick 4. I'm sure the club(and Macca especially) wouldn't want to get rid of one of our leaders.

Absolutely.

[Twodogs]

Rather keep Minson and pick 4. I'm sure the club(and Macca especially) wouldn't want to get rid of one of our leaders.


Agree with you chef.


Absolutely.



Looking at it from a talented young player's perspective what does it say? Do your absolute best. Become the best player you can. Train hard. Assume responsibility. Become the All Australian In your position.


Do all that. Then we will trade you.

[stefoid]

I think the trade has legs.

Minnow and pick 4 for pick 1. Done deal, where do I sign?

You would trade the competitions best ruckman for a 3 pick upgrade?

GWS would have to send us back pick 10 or Adams, surely?

[LostDoggy]

You would trade the competitions best ruckman for a 3 pick upgrade?

GWS would have to send us back pick 10 or Adams, surely?

Boyd or not, if we traded Will Minson for that prick I'd scream.

[ReLoad]

Boyd or not, if we traded Will Minson for that prick I'd scream.

You are essentially swapping Will Minson an pick 4 and getting a 19 year old Jonathan Brown.

Its far from lunacy and its the sort of trade that you need to do to take the best kid in the country by a significant margin.

Can you imagine what our team over the last 7 years would have been like if we had a player like that to build your side around? would we have won a flag? we most certainly would have at least been in 2 GF's.'

No disrespect for Will, love him to bits, but you have to make a hard call, Look at the Dawks with Croad. they scored Hodge, couldn't have worked out any better, no?

[chef]

You are essentially swapping Will Minson an pick 4 and getting a 19 year old Jonathan Brown.

Its far from lunacy and its the sort of trade that you need to do to take the best kid in the country by a significant margin.

Can you imagine what our team over the last 7 years would have been like if we had a player like that to build your side around? would we have won a flag? we most certainly would have at least been in 2 GF's.'

No disrespect for Will, love him to bits, but you have to make a hard call, Look at the Dawks with Croad. they scored Hodge, couldn't have worked out any better, no?

Or a 19 year old Scott Gumbleton/Justin Koschitzke. There's no guarantees he will be a star.

[chef]

Can't see Macca wanting to rip the heart out of the group to chase a draft pick. We are finally heading in the right direction, why try and derail it.

[Go_Dogs]

Or a 19 year old Scott Gumbleton. There's no guarantees he will be a star.

Exactly. What if he did both his knees in his first 2 years and never managed to play a game for the club? There are risks with selling the farm to recruit young, untried talent through the draft. He may turn out to be a superstar (and if his body can handle the rigors of AFL and he has a bit of luck that looks a good chance of happening) but he may also not go very far.

Gumbleton is one example, Hansen is another, Tim Walsh springs to mind too, as well as Kosi. There are a number of examples of early picks not getting their careers off the ground due to persistent injuries or other factors.

If we can acquire Boyd, great - but we need to be sensible in our list management. Will can play for another 3-5 years. Campbell isn't ready to be #1 ruck yet. Based on current trajectory, we could be in the mix for finals next year (who knows) but without Minson, we'll be a mile off.

That doesn't even begin to figure in the detriment it would have on the playing group as a whole to trade out a popular, revered team man at the peak of his abilities for an untried kid who may turn out to be a star, but may not. If one of my better mates who I'd played and trained with practically everyday for the best part of 10 years was treated like that, I'd be pretty cut.

[LostDoggy]

You are essentially swapping Will Minson an pick 4 and getting a 19 year old Jonathan Brown.

Its far from lunacy and its the sort of trade that you need to do to take the best kid in the country by a significant margin.

Can you imagine what our team over the last 7 years would have been like if we had a player like that to build your side around? would we have won a flag? we most certainly would have at least been in 2 GF's.'

No disrespect for Will, love him to bits, but you have to make a hard call, Look at the Dawks with Croad. they scored Hodge, couldn't have worked out any better, no?

Boyd I'm fine with. Adams, less so.

[chef]

Exactly. What if he did both his knees in his first 2 years and never managed to play a game for the club? There are risks with selling the farm to recruit young, untried talent through the draft. He may turn out to be a superstar (and if his body can handle the rigors of AFL and he has a bit of luck that looks a good chance of happening) but he may also not go very far.

Gumbleton is one example, Hansen is another, Tim Walsh springs to mind too, as well as Kosi. There are a number of examples of early picks not getting their careers off the ground due to persistent injuries or other factors.

If we can acquire Boyd, great - but we need to be sensible in our list management. Will can play for another 3-5 years. Campbell isn't ready to be #1 ruck yet. Based on current trajectory, we could be in the mix for finals next year (who knows) but without Minson, we'll be a mile off.

That doesn't even begin to figure in the detriment it would have on the playing group as a whole to trade out a popular, revered team man at the peak of his abilities for an untried kid who may turn out to be a star, but may not. If one of my better mates who I'd played and trained with practically everyday for the best part of 10 years was treated like that, I'd be pretty cut.


Yep, great post. Trading Will(well Will and a Stringer pretty much) doesn't make enough sense.

[azabob]

Exactly.
If we can acquire Boyd, great - but we need to be sensible in our list management. Will can play for another 3-5 years. Campbell isn't ready to be #1 ruck yet. Based on current trajectory, we could be in the mix for finals next year (who knows) but without Minson, we'll be a mile off.

.

Also I strongly belive Will Minson's form has helped our young midfield improve.

Not only isn't Campbell ready to ruck full time, that would mean we would need to use Roughead more in the ruck which then throws out the backline and so on.

[KT31]

Also I strongly belive Will Minson's form has helped our young midfield improve.
Not only isn't Campbell ready to ruck full time, that would mean we would need to use Roughead more in the ruck which then throws out the backline and so on.

From all accounts Big Will is very popular and looked up to by the young blokes at the club.
We need to keep him at the Dogs, not only because at the moment he is the best ruckman in the competition and for his on field leadership.
But more importantly we lack players in his age bracket and imagine the negative message it would send out to the players if we traded him.

[chef]

From all accounts Big Will is very popular and looked up to by the young blokes at the club.
We need to keep him at the Dogs, not only because at the moment he is the best ruckman in the competition and for his on field leadership.
But more importantly we lack players in his age bracket and imagine the negative message it would send out to the players if we traded him.

I don't think we need to worry as the club won't be silly enough to trade him. We are on the right track with the right people in place.

[Mofra]

Or a 19 year old Scott Gumbleton/Justin Koschitzke. There's no guarantees he will be a star.
Yep - this year it's effectively a pick upgrade from pick 7 to pick 3.

[chef]

Yep - this year it's effectively a pick upgrade from pick 7 to pick 3.

So true.

[Maddog37]

Exactly. What if he did both his knees in his first 2 years and never managed to play a game for the club? There are risks with selling the farm to recruit young, untried talent through the draft. He may turn out to be a superstar (and if his body can handle the rigors of AFL and he has a bit of luck that looks a good chance of happening) but he may also not go very far.

Gumbleton is one example, Hansen is another, Tim Walsh springs to mind too, as well as Kosi. There are a number of examples of early picks not getting their careers off the ground due to persistent injuries or other factors.

If we can acquire Boyd, great - but we need to be sensible in our list management. Will can play for another 3-5 years. Campbell isn't ready to be #1 ruck yet. Based on current trajectory, we could be in the mix for finals next year (who knows) but without Minson, we'll be a mile off.

That doesn't even begin to figure in the detriment it would have on the playing group as a whole to trade out a popular, revered team man at the peak of his abilities for an untried kid who may turn out to be a star, but may not. If one of my better mates who I'd played and trained with practically everyday for the best part of 10 years was treated like that, I'd be pretty cut.


Works both ways to a degree. What if Will does his back and doesn't play again.....

[chef]

Works both ways to a degree. What if Will does his back and doesn't play again.....

So your willing to trade Minson + the next Stringer/McCrae + squad harmony for pick 1(or in reality pick 3)?

[Maddog37]

I think it bears some thought depending on the assessment of Boyd.

[Remi Moses]

I'm looking forward to reading some of this stuff in 12 to 24 months time .
Very Very interested .
Just a reminder that even though we're on the right track the club should still play the long game.

[chef]

I'm looking forward to reading some of this stuff in 12 to 24 months time .
Very Very interested .
Just a reminder that even though we're on the right track the club should still play the long game.

So you would be happy to trade Griffen and our first pick for pick 1?

Because realistically that's what's going to be needed.

[ReLoad]

Yep, great post. Trading Will(well Will and a Stringer pretty much) doesn't make enough sense.

This fails the logic test, our pick at 4 is just as risky as pick 1 in not working.

We took a calculated risk with stringer, given his history and it looks pretty good.

But if you want the best in the draft you have to giveup something good.

Wil's trade or departure is not going to rip the heart and soul out of the club, he isn't EJ. In todays professional environment players know and understand the mechanics of trading. After all they wanted free agency!

So with the above and taking out all the emotion, pick 4 and will Minson for the number 1 kid, Tom Boyd makes a whole lot of sense.

Seriously having will in our team is awesome on a range of levels, but we are not in flag striking distance. A player like Boyd has him in his prime right when we are ready.

What if it was a straight swap pick 4 for Patton? It's essentially the same thing.

This is going to be the lowest draft pick <5 we are going to get for a while, we need to maximise it.

[soupman]

Pick 4 for Patton is nowhere near the same as Minson+pick 4 for Boyd.

[chef]

This fails the logic test, our pick at 4 is just as risky as pick 1 in not working.
We took a calculated risk with stringer, given his history and it looks pretty good.

But if you want the best in the draft you have to giveup something good.

Wil's trade or departure is not going to rip the heart and soul out of the club, he isn't EJ. In todays professional environment players know and understand the mechanics of trading. After all they wanted free agency!

So with the above and taking out all the emotion, pick 4 and will Minson for the number 1 kid, Tom Boyd makes a whole lot of sense.

Seriously having will in our team is awesome on a range of levels, but we are not in flag striking distance. A player like Boyd has him in his prime right when we are ready.

What if it was a straight swap pick 4 for Patton? It's essentially the same thing.

But hey, I'm of the opinion you only trade out players who don't want to be here.

This is going to be the lowest draft pick <5 we are going to get for a while, we need to maximise it.

So it's just as likely to fail so lets throw Will in with it, what did you say about logic?

So who's going to ruck next season?

When Monty was convinced to be traded(when he and his teammates didn't want him to go) it ripped the heart out of the group for a while. I see this having a similar outcome. You can't take the emotion out of it, it's impossible.

Pick 4 for Patton makes more sense and definitely not the same thing.

Can you guarantee Boyd is going to be a gun?

Plus GWS would want Griffen(plus pick 4) and not Minson anyway. Will's going to be retired(or close too) before the Giants play finals, we hang onto him and we'll go close to playing them next season. Without Will we won't.

[Remi Moses]

So it's just as likely to fail so lets throw Will in with it, what did you say about logic?

So who's going to ruck next season?

When Monty was convinced to be traded(when he and his teammates didn't want him to go) it ripped the heart out of the group for a while. I see this having a similar outcome. You can't take the emotion out of it, it's impossible.

Pick 4 for Patton makes more sense and definitely not the same thing.

Can you guarantee Boyd is going to be a gun?

Plus GWS would want Griffen(plus pick 4) and not Minson anyway. Will's going to be retired(or close too) before the Giants play finals, we hang onto him and we'll go close to playing them next season. Without Will we won't.
Trading Monty Powell and Leon we picked up the likes of Hahn Shaggy Gilbee Gia and basically set our club up for a period of finals campaigns.
Take the emotion out ( finding it strange as a follower of a ruthless EPL team) that you have this view.
We are running an organisation that should be endeavouring for long term sustained success
Not carrying on like groupies

[chef]

Trading Monty Powell and Leon we picked up the likes of Hahn Shaggy Gilbee Gia and basically set our club up for a period of finals campaigns.
Take the emotion out ( finding it strange as a follower of a ruthless EPL team) that you have this view.
We are running an organisation that should be endeavouring for long term sustained success
Not carrying on like groupies

The reason I like the Dogs that bit more than Chelsea is because of the emotion(plus I love buying players, but hate when we sell them...Please stay David Luiz).

I'm not carrying on like a groupie, I just think it's a dumb and not very realistic trade. But hey it's never going to happen so I'm over it. Carry on:).

PS. If it was Griffen they wanted, would you still want the trade Remi?

[Remi Moses]

The reason I like the Dogs that bit more than Chelsea is because of the emotion(plus I love buying players, but hate when we sell them...Please stay David Luiz).

I'm not carrying on like a groupie, I just think it's a dumb and not very realistic trade. But hey it's never going to happen so I'm over it. Carry on:).

PS. If it was Griffen they wanted, would you still want the trade Remi?

No, wouldn't trade Griffen.
1) he's our best player
2) He's younger than Will
The trade won't happen, but I'd do it because our club is talking up playing the long game.
McCartney's on record as saying it will be a while until we're challenging again.
Hypothetically speaking you can trade or use f/a to obtain an experienced ruck.

[LostDoggy]

Love this thread. We've gone around in circles a bit but the thing with all scenarios is that they all have the best interests of the club at heart.

More of the opinion, with the recent form reversal and the gameplan sinking in, that we don't sell a star for Boyd.....but keep them coming.

[Remi Moses]

Ditto, good healthy debate.

[jeemak]

I like the idea of paying a fair price, no matter the situation.

For me pick four, and one of if not the best rucks in the league (in his prime) is not a fair price for a three pick upgrade considering the potential fruit of the first round pick is untried.

It's not that far off, and a swap of our third round pick for their second would get it across the line for me.

[stefoid]

So your willing to trade Minson + the next Stringer/McCrae + squad harmony for pick 1(or in reality pick 3)?

I wouldnt trade Minson and pick 4, no way.

But lets be clear, it isnt "pick #1 / reality pick #3" we would be trading for, its Boyd - a genuine quality key-forward prospect - a happy mix of clearly best available and fits needs.

If we cant come to a mutually happy arrangement to get Boyd, I really hope we are somewhat proactive in addressing needs this year - mac has done enough with the culture/attitude of the club to be able to take in a Dayle Garlet or Thorpe, or have a crack at Yarran, you would think.

[ReLoad]

There is a few things flying around saying that its a stab in the dark, that is a punt, all draft picks are a punt. but as per above it is Tom Boyd, its not an untried nobody we are talking about, it is unquestionably someone to build a side around.

There is risk both ways, risk he develops early onset dementia and forgets where the goals are, risk he buys a car without a GPS and cant find the Whitten oval.
There is also the real risk that our club takes in NOT recruiting a guy like this, we're not going to get a chance at getting a #1 pick, anyone else except GWS wouldn't trade it. They don't need Boyd, they have Patton and Cameron. Anyone else this debate wouldn't happen.

the potential lost opportunity far outweighs the risks IMHO.

I was really peeved when we lost Leon Cameron, even more so when Judas left, but jeez they worked out ok.

[Hotdog60]

Come on guys, settle down. If we sold our best player for pick one it would be the Doggies luck that the Dees would get a PP at the beginning of round one and take Boyd.:)

[Throughandthrough]

Losing Minson would set us back two or three seasons. Something about babies and bath water.

[bornadog]

Love this thread. We've gone around in circles a bit but the thing with all scenarios is that they all have the best interests of the club at heart.

More of the opinion, with the recent form reversal and the gameplan sinking in, that we don't sell a star for Boyd.....but keep them coming.

Macca was asked about this same question last Friday at the CBD function. His answer sounded the same as our debate and he/said they hadn't come to a conclusion.

So the recruiting committee has been discussing Boyd.

[LostDoggy]

Macca was asked about this same question last Friday at the CBD function. His answer sounded the same as our debate and he/said they hadn't come to a conclusion.

So the recruiting committee has been discussing Boyd.

As have 16 others, I'd imagine.

[Remi Moses]

Losing Minson would set us back two or three seasons. Something about babies and bath water.

For a touted once in a generation forward you take that risk.
When we become a good side challenging for top 4 Minson will be in his early 30's!
As I said previously you do have access to F/A and trading for a ruckman.
I don't think Campbell is that far away from having some sort of impact to be honest.
Interesting times ahead

[chef]

I wouldnt trade Minson and pick 4, no way.

But lets be clear, it isnt "pick #1 / reality pick #3" we would be trading for, its Boyd - a genuine quality key-forward prospect - a happy mix of clearly best available and fits needs.

If we cant come to a mutually happy arrangement to get Boyd, I really hope we are somewhat proactive in addressing needs this year - mac has done enough with the culture/attitude of the club to be able to take in a Dayle Garlet or Thorpe, or have a crack at Yarran, you would think.

Just like Gumbleton when he went at 2.

[bornadog]

For a touted once in a generation forward you take that risk.
When we become a good side challenging for top 4 Minson will be in his early 30's!
As I said previously you do have access to F/A and trading for a ruckman.
I don't think Campbell is that far away from having some sort of impact to be honest.
Interesting times ahead

Campbell is way off being a good AFL ruckman. In order for our midfield to keep developing we need a good ruckman.

[soupman]

For a touted once in a generation forward you take that risk.
When we become a good side challenging for top 4 Minson will be in his early 30's!
As I said previously you do have access to F/A and trading for a ruckman.
I don't think Campbell is that far away from having some sort of impact to be honest.
Interesting times ahead

He's not a once in a generation forward. For that he would have to be rated higher than Cameron, Hogan and Patton just from the last couple of drafts. He's about on par with Hogan in this draft. And wasn't Patton really highly rated when he went pick 1, and now he is worth just pick 4? Whats to stop Boyds value declining like that?

Don't get me wrong, I would love an exciting young key forward prospect and Boyd does fit that category nicely, but the Minson option is a huge risk.

Sure Hawthorn were brave and traded Croad and that paid off, but pick 5 wasn't involved as well, and Croad played a position they had depth in, wasn't a leader and hugely popular clubman like Will is, and wasn't one of the few leaders that would be left at the club in 2 years time.

And giving up pick 5 as well means we are also losing another Macrae, or Stringer. As encouraging as our form has been of late the missing link isn't only a key forward. We need more outside run, skills, attacking flair. Pick 5 gets us a high quality player in that mould. Sydney won a premiership last year without a gun key forward, and they play the same gamestyle that we do. LRT was a key forward for them.

And Pick 4 for Patton is a completely different prospect, not a similiar deal. That trade involves trading one unkown young gun for another in a position we need. Very different proposition to traded one of our three key players and few leaders and a young gun for one unknown young gun.

[Greystache]

He's not a once in a generation forward. For that he would have to be rated higher than Cameron, Hogan and Patton just from the last couple of drafts. He's about on par with Hogan in this draft. And wasn't Patton really highly rated when he went pick 1, and now he is worth just pick 4? Whats to stop Boyds value declining like that?

Don't get me wrong, I would love an exciting young key forward prospect and Boyd does fit that category nicely, but the Minson option is a huge risk.

Sure Hawthorn were brave and traded Croad and that paid off, but pick 5 wasn't involved as well, and Croad played a position they had depth in, wasn't a leader and hugely popular clubman like Will is, and wasn't one of the few leaders that would be left at the club in 2 years time.

And giving up pick 5 as well means we are also losing another Macrae, or Stringer. As encouraging as our form has been of late the missing link isn't only a key forward. We need more outside run, skills, attacking flair. Pick 5 gets us a high quality player in that mould. Sydney won a premiership last year without a gun key forward, and they play the same gamestyle that we do. LRT was a key forward for them.

And Pick 4 for Patton is a completely different prospect, not a similiar deal. That trade involves trading one unkown young gun for another in a position we need. Very different proposition to traded one of our three key players and few leaders and a young gun for one unknown young gun.

Patton was highly rated, but didn't have anywhere near the exposed form of Boyd. Boyd's stats at under 18 level are close to unmatched.

Hawthorn didn't give up pick #5, but they gave up Luke McPharlin who arguably turned out the best player of all three involved.

[bulldogtragic]

Patton was highly rated, but didn't have anywhere near the exposed form of Boyd. Boyd's stats at under 18 level are close to unmatched.

Hawthorn didn't give up pick #5, but they gave up Luke McPharlin who arguably turned out the best player of all three involved.
Yep. Patton went pick one, so he had some wraps oh him. Statically, it's almost unfair to compare Patton and Boyd, Boyd is MILES ahead as you say.

[westdog54]

For a touted once in a generation forward you take that risk.
When we become a good side challenging for top 4 Minson will be in his early 30's!
As I said previously you do have access to F/A and trading for a ruckman.
I don't think Campbell is that far away from having some sort of impact to be honest.
Interesting times ahead

Is he really a once in a generation forward?

If he was, why did Hogan get picked in the mini draft instead?

He might be an exceptional talent but at the end of the day, there are at least 2 players, one of them a key forward who is absolutely flying at VFL level at the age of 18, ahead of him. I'd argue that Hogan is the real 'once in a generation forward'. I'd hate to think we're selling the farm to try and get our hands on whatever is left over.

[Greystache]

Is he really a once in a generation forward?

If he was, why did Hogan get picked in the mini draft instead?

He might be an exceptional talent but at the end of the day, there are at least 2 players, one of them a key forward who is absolutely flying at VFL level at the age of 18, ahead of him. I'd argue that Hogan is the real 'once in a generation forward'. I'd hate to think we're selling the farm to try and get our hands on whatever is left over.

Because Hogan was eligible and Boyd wasn't. Hogan is older and fit the criteria for the mini-draft.

[Mofra]

Can you guarantee Boyd is going to be a gun?
Patton was guaranteed to be a gun. Reco, 12 months + 12 months = a development almost as hindered as Cordy's.

For the sake of comparison of picks:

2008 Watts 1, Hartlett 4
2009 Scully 1, Morabito 4
2010 Swallow 1, Gaff 4
2011 Patton 1, Hoskin-Elliott 4
2012 Whitfield 1, Toumpas 4


Morabito & Hartlett have had injury issues, jury still firmly out on the others.

[bornadog]

He's not a once in a generation forward. For that he would have to be rated higher than Cameron, Hogan and Patton just from the last couple of drafts. .

If Boyd is better than Cameron then he is an absolute freak. Cameron is the best young forward since Franklin.

[mjp]

Hogan was better than Boyd at the 2012 championships and it wasn't really that close. Anyone who watched the games would say that.

As for the hogan, Boyd, Patton arguments...don't forget Daniher.

[LongWait]

Hogan was better than Boyd at the 2012 championships and it wasn't really that close. Anyone who watched the games would say that.

As for the hogan, Boyd, Patton arguments...don't forget Daniher.

MJP: do you think we are better off trying to get one of the key forwards from next years draft, or maybe trying to pick up a key forward with our second round pick this year, rather than targeting Boyd?

[Bulldog Joe]

Hogan was better than Boyd at the 2012 championships and it wasn't really that close. Anyone who watched the games would say that.

As for the hogan, Boyd, Patton arguments...don't forget Daniher.

So discounting Patton we have 3 "once in a generation' forwards available in the space of 2 years.

Keeps going like this they will be a dime a dozen in 4 or 5 years.

Perhaps we may not be best served by selling the farm to get Tom Boyd.

[stefoid]

So discounting Patton we have 3 "once in a generation' forwards available in the space of 2 years.

Keeps going like this they will be a dime a dozen in 4 or 5 years.

Perhaps we may not be best served by selling the farm to get Tom Boyd.

Seems like there is gun forward every couple of drafts. Compared to a couple of gun mids every draft. 'once in a generation' may be applicable per club.

Of course there is a risk with any draft pick, but there is also a risk with not actively trying to address needs. Waiting for a gun forward to fall into your lap for a cheap price - you'll be waiting a while.

This is as close as we are going to get for a while (I hope), so we should seriously consider it.

[Greystache]

Seems like there is gun forward every couple of drafts. Compared to a couple of gun mids every draft. 'once in a generation' may be applicable per club.

Of course there is a risk with any draft pick, but there is also a risk with not actively trying to address needs. Waiting for a gun forward to fall into your lap for a cheap price - you'll be waiting a while.

This is as close as we are going to get for a while (I hope), so we should seriously consider it.

Exactly. It's been 24 years since we recruited Chris Grant at pick 105 and haven't drafted a gun key forward since.

[mjp]

MJP: do you think we are better off trying to get one of the key forwards from next years draft, or maybe trying to pick up a key forward with our second round pick this year, rather than targeting Boyd?

If we can get Boyd, great. But I cannot see the point of giving up Minson/Griffen/Liberatore to get him. And that is what it would take. Now, if we still had Lake to throw into the trade, well...then we might have been able to put that together with pick 4'ish and made a fair dash at it. But we don't so it doesn't matter.

There is a pretty good key defender available who will be close to the top 10...aren't they just as valuable? Why don't we let the other teams zig whilst we zag and grab Gardiner?

[chef]

If we can get Boyd, great. But I cannot see the point of giving up Minson/Griffen/Liberatore to get him. And that is what it would take. Now, if we still had Lake to throw into the trade, well...then we might have been able to put that together with pick 4'ish and made a fair dash at it. But we don't so it doesn't matter.

There is a pretty good key defender available who will be close to the top 10...aren't they just as valuable? Why don't we let the other teams zig whilst we zag and grab Gardiner?

With our first pick?

[SlimPickens]

There is a pretty good key defender available who will be close to the top 10...aren't they just as valuable? Why don't we let the other teams zig whilst we zag and grab Gardiner?

Small for a key defender. Do you see him as a Morris replacement? Or think he can play "taller".

[mjp]

Small for a key defender. Do you see him as a Morris replacement? Or think he can play "taller".

He is 192cm tall. How tall do you want him to be???

Kid can play. Strong key position defender. Was moved onto (and stopped) Jesse Hogan in the 2012 Champs (both are the same age) when Hogan was quite simply ripping Country apart at Subi.

Yes - with our first pick. He wont be around for our second pick.

[chef]

There is a few things flying around saying that its a stab in the dark, that is a punt, all draft picks are a punt. but as per above it is Tom Boyd, its not an untried nobody we are talking about, it is unquestionably someone to build a side around.

There is risk both ways, risk he develops early onset dementia and forgets where the goals are, risk he buys a car without a GPS and cant find the Whitten oval.
There is also the real risk that our club takes in NOT recruiting a guy like this, we're not going to get a chance at getting a #1 pick, anyone else except GWS wouldn't trade it. They don't need Boyd, they have Patton and Cameron. Anyone else this debate wouldn't happen.

the potential lost opportunity far outweighs the risks IMHO.

I was really peeved when we lost Leon Cameron, even more so when Judas left, but jeez they worked out ok.

The Judas trade would have to go down as the worst ever wouldn't it. The Veale Deal still gives me shivers.

[LongWait]

If we can get Boyd, great. But I cannot see the point of giving up Minson/Griffen/Liberatore to get him. And that is what it would take. Now, if we still had Lake to throw into the trade, well...then we might have been able to put that together with pick 4'ish and made a fair dash at it. But we don't so it doesn't matter.

There is a pretty good key defender available who will be close to the top 10...aren't they just as valuable? Why don't we let the other teams zig whilst we zag and grab Gardiner?

Thanks MJP - the feeling I'm getting from listening to Bmac is that we are not convinced Boyd is worth selling the farm for.

[Greystache]

He is 192cm tall. How tall do you want him to be???

Kid can play. Strong key position defender. Was moved onto (and stopped) Jesse Hogan in the 2012 Champs (both are the same age) when Hogan was quite simply ripping Country apart at Subi.

Yes - with our first pick. He wont be around for our second pick.

Personally I wouldn't be overly comfortable using a first round pick on a key defender who's going to be giving up 8-10cm to many key forwards his whole career. 192cm is just over "tall" midfielder height these days.

[Mofra]

He is 192cm tall. How tall do you want him to be???

Kid can play. Strong key position defender. Was moved onto (and stopped) Jesse Hogan in the 2012 Champs (both are the same age) when Hogan was quite simply ripping Country apart at Subi.

Yes - with our first pick. He wont be around for our second pick.
I guess the concern is that Daniher types are pushing 200cm.

If we free up Roughead to play the R2 role with a genuine KPB I'd be all for it.

[Greystache]

I guess the concern is that Daniher types are pushing 200cm.

If we free up Roughead to play the R2 role with a genuine KPB I'd be all for it.

That's what I think, look at the key forwards coming through at the moment.

Patton- 197cm
Cameron-196cm
Boyd- 199cm
Tippett- 203cm
Daniher- 201cm
Jones- 197cm
Cordy- 202cm :D

It's a massive ask for a player to give up that much height every week.

[LostDoggy]

Campbell is way off being a good AFL ruckman. In order for our midfield to keep developing we need a good ruckman.

If you swap out “good” for “experienced” I think you're right.


And giving up pick 5 as well means we are also losing another Macrae, or Stringer. As encouraging as our form has been of late the missing link isn't only a key forward. We need more outside run, skills, attacking flair. Pick 5 gets us a high quality player in that mould. Sydney won a premiership last year without a gun key forward, and they play the same gamestyle that we do. LRT was a key forward for them.

And they beat the Hawks with both Franklin and Roughead to do it.


He is 192cm tall. How tall do you want him to be???

Kid can play. Strong key position defender. Was moved onto (and stopped) Jesse Hogan in the 2012 Champs (both are the same age) when Hogan was quite simply ripping Country apart at Subi.

Yes - with our first pick. He wont be around for our second pick.


Personally I wouldn't be overly comfortable using a first round pick on a key defender who's going to be giving up 8-10cm to many key forwards his whole career. 192cm is just over "tall" midfielder height these days.

Have to disagree. 192cm is tall enough for me. You could say it is the perfect height for any man, really…

[SlimPickens]

That's what I think, look at the key forwards coming through at the moment.

Patton- 197cm
Cameron-196cm
Boyd- 199cm
Tippett- 203cm
Daniher- 201cm
Jones- 197cm
Cordy- 202cm :D

It's a massive ask for a player to give up that much height every week.

My thoughts, seems a high price to pay for a "third tall" that being said he is a very talented player.

[mjp]

No way is 192cm a third tall - either back or forward.

[LostDoggy]

Darcy's a talented kid and could end up back or forward, but geez pick 4 or 5?

[bornadog]

No way is 192cm a third tall - either back or forward.

He may grow a few cms, just like Talia has :D

[bulldogtragic]

Just had a decent think about things and this is where I am at:

We haven't bottomed out traditionally. Usually when you win 3 games out of 22 you end up with pick 1 or pick 2 at worst. But the worm didnt turn this way, we lost our games spread over last years back end and the beginning of this year. So instead of say pick 1 and pick 5 over two drafts (not inc. comp pick), we will get pick 5 and pick 5. Effectively the circumstances have meant we couldn't nab a Hogan or Boyd organically.

History shows every 7-8 years we get a shot at a prelim. The signs indicate that we are developing nicely and hopefully moving from bottom-developing to better than this. If this is the case, the best draft pick of currency to trade from now until our next prelim is this year. Coincidentally, a freak tall forward is available.

This is occurring to me to be possibly a MAJOR moment in the history of this list. The nucleus is there to get us to our next prelim. The missing piece is the KPF. As we improve, the draft picks lower, and while we get top end picks still, we won't get a shot a a kid like Boyd again in this cycle. It's this year or bust. That the no. 1 kid is 198cm, 102kg and has kicked double the goals of Patton (who went #1) in the TAC Cup, is a massive carrot. Massive.

If my assumptions are right, we are improving, we are 5-6 years off a prelim, and future draft picks will lessen, then the club is obligated to look what we can do this year. This could be bravest thing the club has ever had to do. Unlike other clubs previously, we didnt bottom out traditionally to get a Riewoldt, Kruezer, Patton, Hogan etc. So I think we need to look seriously at how we get a pick 1 tall, because as we improve, this opportunity gets further and further away. And as the side improves the salary cap will fill, and we won't be able to 'buy' a KPF, not that history shows they want to play for us.

So I see two things.

1) If we want a gun forward, pick one, KPF, we need to act AND we need to come to reality that they cost ALOT. So if we are on course for a prelim, and we are short a gun KPF, then we need to be prepared to pay.

2) Is Boyd 'the one'. If the recruiters say yes, then I encourage them to go all guns.

I think it goes beyond a should we, shouldn't we, I think it could be a defining moment/decision in the future of this list. We won't get an opportunity until the next rebuild to have a top 5 pick to trade for a pick one future gun. It's now or not at all until the next rebuild. I had been thinking of this as something of a novelty discussion, but when you think about how we non traditionally bottomed out, where we are, where we are going and what could be our main deficiency and what Boyd could represent, it's a potential sheep stations decision.

[Remi Moses]

The Judas trade would have to go down as the worst ever wouldn't it. The Veale Deal still gives me shivers.

The Veale deal was cunningly thought out, but what hurt was that Rawlings had major knee issues. The club stuffed up with Judas, would have had pick 1,3,6 and 20. Used 6 for the Veale deal and wasted 20 on Constable Street.

[chef]

The Veale deal was cunningly thought out, but what hurt was that Rawlings had major knee issues. The club stuffed up with Judas, would have had pick 1,3,6 and 20. Used 6 for the Veale deal and wasted 20 on Constable Street.

Plus he didn't want to play for us.

[Remi Moses]

Plus he didn't want to play for us.

Yep, but it was a well thought out plan.
Had Claytons paws all over it

[chef]

Just had a decent think about things and this is where I am at:

We haven't bottomed out traditionally. Usually when you win 3 games out of 22 you end up with pick 1 or pick 2 at worst. But the worm didnt turn this way, we lost our games spread over last years back end and the beginning of this year. So instead of say pick 1 and pick 5 over two drafts (not inc. comp pick), we will get pick 5 and pick 5. Effectively the circumstances have meant we couldn't nab a Hogan or Boyd organically.

History shows every 7-8 years we get a shot at a prelim. The signs indicate that we are developing nicely and hopefully moving from bottom-developing to better than this. If this is the case, the best draft pick of currency to trade from now until our next prelim is this year. Coincidentally, a freak tall forward is available.

This is occurring to me to be possibly a MAJOR moment in the history of this list. The nucleus is there to get us to our next prelim. The missing piece is the KPF. As we improve, the draft picks lower, and while we get top end picks still, we won't get a shot a a kid like Boyd again in this cycle. It's this year or bust. That the no. 1 kid is 198cm, 102kg and has kicked double the goals of Patton (who went #1) in the TAC Cup, is a massive carrot. Massive.

If my assumptions are right, we are improving, we are 5-6 years off a prelim, and future draft picks will lessen, then the club is obligated to look what we can do this year. This could be bravest thing the club has ever had to do. Unlike other clubs previously, we didnt bottom out traditionally to get a Riewoldt, Kruezer, Patton, Hogan etc. So I think we need to look seriously at how we get a pick 1 tall, because as we improve, this opportunity gets further and further away. And as the side improves the salary cap will fill, and we won't be able to 'buy' a KPF, not that history shows they want to play for us.

So I see two things.

1) If we want a gun forward, pick one, KPF, we need to act AND we need to come to reality that they cost ALOT. So if we are on course for a prelim, and we are short a gun KPF, then we need to be prepared to pay.

2) Is Boyd 'the one'. If the recruiters say yes, then I encourage them to go all guns.

I think it goes beyond a should we, shouldn't we, I think it could be a defining moment/decision in the future of this list. We won't get an opportunity until the next rebuild to have a top 5 pick to trade for a pick one future gun. It's now or not at all until the next rebuild. I had been thinking of this as something of a novelty discussion, but when you think about how we non traditionally bottomed out, where we are, where we are going and what could be our main deficiency and what Boyd could represent, it's a potential sheep stations decision.

What are going to trade?

And try not to say Minson as he's not what they want(he's simply to old for GWS to be interested) or going to get traded.

I just can't see us being able to offer anything that we don't need desperately already.

[Remi Moses]

Just had a decent think about things and this is where I am at:

We haven't bottomed out traditionally. Usually when you win 3 games out of 22 you end up with pick 1 or pick 2 at worst. But the worm didnt turn this way, we lost our games spread over last years back end and the beginning of this year. So instead of say pick 1 and pick 5 over two drafts (not inc. comp pick), we will get pick 5 and pick 5. Effectively the circumstances have meant we couldn't nab a Hogan or Boyd organically.

History shows every 7-8 years we get a shot at a prelim. The signs indicate that we are developing nicely and hopefully moving from bottom-developing to better than this. If this is the case, the best draft pick of currency to trade from now until our next prelim is this year. Coincidentally, a freak tall forward is available.

This is occurring to me to be possibly a MAJOR moment in the history of this list. The nucleus is there to get us to our next prelim. The missing piece is the KPF. As we improve, the draft picks lower, and while we get top end picks still, we won't get a shot a a kid like Boyd again in this cycle. It's this year or bust. That the no. 1 kid is 198cm, 102kg and has kicked double the goals of Patton (who went #1) in the TAC Cup, is a massive carrot. Massive.

If my assumptions are right, we are improving, we are 5-6 years off a prelim, and future draft picks will lessen, then the club is obligated to look what we can do this year. This could be bravest thing the club has ever had to do. Unlike other clubs previously, we didnt bottom out traditionally to get a Riewoldt, Kruezer, Patton, Hogan etc. So I think we need to look seriously at how we get a pick 1 tall, because as we improve, this opportunity gets further and further away. And as the side improves the salary cap will fill, and we won't be able to 'buy' a KPF, not that history shows they want to play for us.

So I see two things.

1) If we want a gun forward, pick one, KPF, we need to act AND we need to come to reality that they cost ALOT. So if we are on course for a prelim, and we are short a gun KPF, then we need to be prepared to pay.

2) Is Boyd 'the one'. If the recruiters say yes, then I encourage them to go all guns.

I think it goes beyond a should we, shouldn't we, I think it could be a defining moment/decision in the future of this list. We won't get an opportunity until the next rebuild to have a top 5 pick to trade for a pick one future gun. It's now or not at all until the next rebuild. I had been thinking of this as something of a novelty discussion, but when you think about how we non traditionally bottomed out, where we are, where we are going and what could be our main deficiency and what Boyd could represent, it's a potential sheep stations decision.

I agree Tragic. As we've seen with Crameri( second stringer KF) they demand big bucks.
If you want the main man you pay Cloke proportions or you use the draft.
Interesting conundrum for the club

[bulldogtragic]

What are going to trade?

And try not to say Minson as he's not what they want(he's simply to old for GWS to be interested) or going to get traded.

I just can't see us being able to offer anything that we don't need desperately already.
I would have an open mind (ex. Griff). I really like the way the club has appeared to play it. That is, speak to GWS on a 'club-to-club' basis and express interest. Then say publicly we're not going to bend over and see where it takes us. GWS may or may not be serious, other clubs may or may not make offers, but if it comes down to the final day of trade week and GWS come to us and say they have run their race in the market and it's final position is "trade X and you get Boyd" then that's a good thing IMO. Then it's purely a matter of judgement of BMac and the recruiters. After last draft, they have some 'cred' should they need it. It's massive risk/reward, it could hurt culture, but it could win a premiership. But as I say, this will be the last time before our next prelim that we can get our hands on a 'pick one', who happens to be a gun KPF. If we don't have the players/picks to do it, fine, but if we do, the coaches/recruiters can make the call if we can pull the trigger. For me, I would back them either way.

[Scorlibo]

Trading players who don't want to be traded is not a good look. They're people, not a commodity, and as people their trust and compassion for the club is incredibly important. Far more important than one player. Far more important than having a star key forward, no longer a requirement to win premierships.

[Remi Moses]

If we subscribed to that theory no players would be traded.
Maybe the players should adopt your thoughts when they make a decision to leave for more money.
Hello C. Ward. Can't have it both ways

[LostDoggy]

Can't really trade players who don't want to be traded / don't agree to be traded. Can't tear up their contract for that. Let's not lose the focus that football is a business though, and being all nice and family - orientated hasn't got us a premiership. The best for the club is always bigger than what's best for an individual.

[Scorlibo]

If we subscribed to that theory no players would be traded.
Maybe the players should adopt your thoughts when they make a decision to leave for more money.
Hello C. Ward. Can't have it both ways

Players who want to be traded get traded. Very, very rarely do you see regular senior players traded against their will - which is what we're speculating on. I don't want it 'both ways', I'm not suggesting that we trade for Tom Boyd whilst not giving away senior players. I'm suggesting that if that's the cost then there's no way he's worth it.

Also, you're attributing the loyalty of a few to the whole group. In effect you're saying: "Well Callan Ward didn't show loyalty so why should we be loyal to Will Minson or Adam Cooney?". Just ridiculous.

[Scorlibo]

The best for the club is always bigger than what's best for an individual.

You have this the wrong way around. This thread is all about chasing an individual at the expense of the team.

Name me one player in the competition who is so good that he could single handedly change the fortunes of your club and is worth moving heaven and earth to attain. Ablett is the best, and the team he captains still can't make the finals. Judd was the best and Carlton haven't gone near a premiership. Tom Boyd is no different, and certainly not as good a player.

[bulldogtragic]

You have this the wrong way around. This thread is all about chasing an individual at the expense of the team.

Name me one player in the competition who is so good that he could single handedly change the fortunes of your club and is worth moving heaven and earth to attain. Ablett is the best, and the team he captains still can't make the finals. Judd was the best and Carlton haven't gone near a premiership. Tom Boyd is no different, and certainly not as good a player.
Maybe, maybe not. But I have my money on Ablett being a premiership captain. Boyd wouldn't kick 80 goals in his debut year with a Norm Smith too, but what he's capable of doing over a career in the opinion of BMac and the recruiters (that sounds like a cool 50's group, 'BMac and the recruiters')... Anyway, it's up to them, they have my blessing either way.

[Scorlibo]

Maybe, maybe not. But I have my money on Ablett being a premiership captain. Boyd wouldn't kick 80 goals in his debut year with a Norm Smith too, but what he's capable of doing over a career in the opinion of BMac and the recruiters (that sounds like a cool 50's group, 'BMac and the recruiters')... Anyway, it's up to them, they have my blessing either way.

My point is that Ablett is the best player in the competition, at the peak of his powers, but he plays in a poor team and no matter how much he does, he will never change that by himself. He's one player in 22, just like all others.

[Remi Moses]

Players who want to be traded get traded. Very, very rarely do you see regular senior players traded against their will - which is what we're speculating on. I don't want it 'both ways', I'm not suggesting that we trade for Tom Boyd whilst not giving away senior players. I'm suggesting that if that's the cost then there's no way he's worth it.

Also, you're attributing the loyalty of a few to the whole group. In effect you're saying: "Well Callan Ward didn't show loyalty so why should we be loyal to Will Minson or Adam Cooney?". Just ridiculous.

How on earth would you know if a player doesn't want to get traded ?
Pretty sure after getting some love from a potential "suitor" and their club wanting them out, they'd be changing their tune.
I'm merely pointing out with Ward that loyality in all forms of sport is conditional and has a "use buy" date.
The club should be endeavouring to do what's best for continual success.
Pretty sure the likes of Montgomery and Powell didn't want to get traded back in 99, but that was a great move by the club

[Remi Moses]

You have this the wrong way around. This thread is all about chasing an individual at the expense of the team.

Name me one player in the competition who is so good that he could single handedly change the fortunes of your club and is worth moving heaven and earth to attain. Ablett is the best, and the team he captains still can't make the finals. Judd was the best and Carlton haven't gone near a premiership. Tom Boyd is no different, and certainly not as good a player.

Its about building your side around these players.
Stkilda built their side around Riewoldt. Collingwood around Cloke, the big blokes demand the big dollars.
It's about making the team Better for long term success.

[Scorlibo]

How on earth would you know if a player doesn't want to get traded ?
Pretty sure after getting some love from a potential "suitor" and their club wanting them out, they'd be changing their tune.
I'm merely pointing out with Ward that loyality in all forms of sport is conditional and has a "use buy" date.
The club should be endeavouring to do what's best for continual success.
Pretty sure the likes of Montgomery and Powell didn't want to get traded back in 99, but that was a great move by the club

"Their club wanting them out" indicates that we're not talking about elite senior players here. Imagine telling Will Minson that we didn't want him anymore after his best, All-Australian year.

In return for those two players we got Nathan Eagleton. Whether the player for player value of that trade was in our favour I don't really care, because what's best for continual success is to continue nurturing and developing the players we have.


Its about building your side around these players.
Stkilda built their side around Riewoldt. Collingwood around Cloke, the big blokes demand the big dollars.
It's about making the team Better for long term success.

If you think that any side these days is so individual-centric then you're deluded. No side is built around one player. In St Kilda's successful days it was Hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna, Goddard, Fisher and Gram who brought the improvement just as much as Riewoldt.

How have Geelong been successful without world-beating key forwards? Sydney last year? West Coast won with Quinten Lynch as their main target and Ash Hansen at CHF! Times have changed. Conversely, if you look at the midfields of these premiership and grand final sides, you'll invariably find that they were the best in the competition.

[Before I Die]

I am with you Scorlibo. I read this thread out of curiosity but I have no real interest in it. I cannot possibly see Macca throwing the kitchen sink at a possible Messiah. Eveything he does is measured and that is the approach he will bring to filling the gaps in our list. If we get Boyd it will be at the right price and not at the expense of the heart and soul of the club.

[anfo27]

"Their club wanting them out" indicates that we're not talking about elite senior players here. Imagine telling Will Minson that we didn't want him anymore after his best, All-Australian year.

In return for those two players we got Nathan Eagleton. Whether the player for player value of that trade was in our favour I don't really care, because what's best for continual success is to continue nurturing and developing the players we have.



If you think that any side these days is so individual-centric then you're deluded. No side is built around one player. In St Kilda's successful days it was Hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna, Goddard, Fisher and Gram who brought the improvement just as much as Riewoldt.

How have Geelong been successful without world-beating key forwards? Sydney last year? West Coast won with Quinten Lynch as their main target and Ash Hansen at CHF! Times have changed. Conversely, if you look at the midfields of these premiership and grand final sides, you'll invariably find that they were the best in the competition.

You seem to forget Geelong gave up 2 first round picks to Richmond for Brad Ottens before they had any success & Brad Ottens was a very influential player for them.

Acquiring Boyd would be enormous for our club. Can you imagine Griffen bursting through the middle & kicking to a 200cm Boyd who can mark & can kick instead of an Addison or Campbell? At present our mids don't get enough reward for all their hard work because they're kicking it to forwards who will never ever be match winners.

I'm not saying paying way overs to get him but whoever wants pick one is going to have to overpay. He would be a hell of a weapon & i'm hoping we are doing all we can to get a deal done.

[anfo27]

I am with you Scorlibo. I read this thread out of curiosity but I have no real interest in it. I cannot possibly see Macca throwing the kitchen sink at a possible Messiah. Eveything he does is measured and that is the approach he will bring to filling the gaps in our list. If we get Boyd it will be at the right price and not at the expense of the heart and soul of the club.

I don't think anyone is saying he will be the messiah but we need someone who is going to finish off all the good work done up field & i would back Macca getting a deal done without destroying the fabric of the club.

If the deal doesn't get done then i guess its because GWS want more than we are willing give.

[Maddog37]

I would be more inclined to go for a jaksch and picks for pick 4 if the club rates him. Not sure what compo picks GWS are still stockpiling that may be activated as part of the trade but if it is in the top 12 I would find it attractive.

I have bugger all real knowledge though but getting two good players for pick 4 would be great at this stage of our build process.

[soupman]

You seem to forget Geelong gave up 2 first round picks to Richmond for Brad Ottens before they had any success & Brad Ottens was a very influential player for them.


You mean a big bodied experienced ruckman that was in the latter half of his career when they won their premierships? Where are we going to find one of those?

[anfo27]

You mean a big bodied experienced ruckman that was in the latter half of his career when they won their premierships? Where are we going to find one of those?

Since when could Minson go forward & clunk a mark & kick a goal? Players of that size who can do that are worth their weight in gold.

Minson has had an amazing year & will be rewarded with an AA but lets not embellish the type of player he is. His ruck work is top shelf no question about it but he offers little around the ground & next to nothing in the forward line. How are you comparing him to Ottens?

[soupman]

In geelongs years he averaged about 12 touches a game, about .80 goals a game and about 20 hitouts a game. Minson averages about 12 touches a game also, .20 goals a game and about 30 hitouts. Yes they aren't the exact same player, Minson is more of a pure ruckman than Ottens.

A since when has Ottens been in the category of "world beating forward" anyway apart from when Richmond supporters used to get carried away? Geelong certainly didn't build their side around him as the dominant player, he was just another quality cog in mixture of good options up forward, much like what we will have when Stringer, Jones, Hunter, Dickson, Campbell etc gain more experience and develop a bit more.

[ledge]

We can get Ben Hudson to help out big Will, bargain basement pick up.
Give Will and Tom (soup) Campbell the full forward role.

[anfo27]

In geelongs years he averaged about 12 touches a game, about .80 goals a game and about 20 hitouts a game. Minson averages about 12 touches a game also, .20 goals a game and about 30 hitouts. Yes they aren't the exact same player, Minson is more of a pure ruckman than Ottens.

A since when has Ottens been in the category of "world beating forward" anyway apart from when Richmond supporters used to get carried away? Geelong certainly didn't build their side around him as the dominant player, he was just another quality cog in mixture of good options up forward, much like what we will have when Stringer, Jones, Hunter, Dickson, Campbell etc gain more experience and develop a bit more.

I don't need stats to tell me that Ottens can mark a ball & Minson can not. A handy stat would be drop marks.

Its not an example of Ottens being a 'world beating forward', its an example of a team paying overs for a player that club believed to be a difference maker. They made of paid overs but i don't think you'll hear the cats ever regretting that trade.

[Maddog37]

Ottens stepped up in finals. His averages were not representative of his impact in big games.

Apples and oranges really comparing him and Minson. Geelong would kill to have Minno now I reckon.

[soupman]

I don't need stats to tell me that Ottens can mark a ball & Minson can not. A handy stat would be drop marks.

Its not an example of Ottens being a 'world beating forward', its an example of a team paying overs for a player that club believed to be a difference maker. They made of paid overs but i don't think you'll hear the cats ever regretting that trade.

This argument for mine has been whether you need a "world beating forward" to build your side around. Scorlibo made the point that many premiership sides of late have lacked this dominant key forward they apparently must build the side around.

I would argue that the Cats don't regret that trade because their entire list developed strongly enough for them to become the side they are now. Ottens may have been influential at the top, but he wasn't the key forward that won them the premiership, because Geelong didn't have/need that guy.

Nobody here is against getting Boyd. Everyone here wants him. But certainly I don't think he is our sole path to a Premiership, and our side cannot afford to pay overs for a player atm because we are still forming the base of our list.

[bornadog]

This argument for mine has been whether you need a "world beating forward" to build your side around. Scorlibo made the point that many premiership sides of late have lacked this dominant key forward they apparently must build the side around.

I would argue that the Cats don't regret that trade because their entire list developed strongly enough for them to become the side they are now. Ottens may have been influential at the top, but he wasn't the key forward that won them the premiership, because Geelong didn't have/need that guy.

Nobody here is against getting Boyd. Everyone here wants him. But certainly I don't think he is our sole path to a Premiership, and our side cannot afford to pay overs for a player atm because we are still forming the base of our list.

We need our midfield to be more damaging on the scoreboard. I don't buy into the notion that our ruckman must clunk marks in the forward line and kick goals or he is no good. A ruckman must win the taps and feed the mids. Yes he should work hard around the ground as well, which I believe Minson does. He is a very good clearance player and also lays lots of tackles. When Ottens was resting up forward, King was doing the ruck work around the ground. Those days are gone with the interchange bench reduced.

Minson is already stuffed doing 90% of the ruckwork.