Which draft pick would we accept in return for...

[F'scary]

There are keepers. Then there are others who could be up for a draft pick swap.

Possibly on our trade table at the end of the season:

J Grant
Howard
Veszpremi

for example.

You may have some others.

What should we except in return for them?

Would pick 45 be good enough for Grant, for example?

Your thoughts appreciated.

[lemmon]

These guys have zero value, I doubt we'd even use the pick we get. Cale Morton, same draft as Jarrad Grant, traded for pick 88. Grant would fetch nothing more than that and he probably has the most value of the 3! Take what we can get, maybe a pick swap that upgrades us by a couple if one of these guys attracts the attention of another club, otherwise they would all go onto the delist pile and fade into the state leagues I imagine.

Shaun Higgins is one who would probably have some value, same as Easton Wood

[Remi Moses]

I think Howard would get taken and possibly Grant.
Has a bit of the Mitch Mortons about him

[LostDoggy]

J Grant, Veszpremi and Howard in a package deal for the third round pick in the rookie draft.

[LostDoggy]

Cooney - pick 15-25 (we would be winning that trade)
Higgins & 3rd round pick - early 2nd round pick
Minno - mid 1st round comp pick or 1st round pick upgrade & early 2nd rounder

Think that's all we have to work with...... Everyone else are kids in the build or too low in market value to trade. We woudn't get value and are better off delisting or trying to develop ourselves. Or they are stars who are clubmen and won't/can't go.

[lemmon]

Surely Minno is in the star who we wont let go category? Not to mention our backups are Cordy and Campbell

[anfo27]

I think we could get at least half a dozen new sherrins for pre-season training next year for them 3.

[bulldogtragic]

I think we could get at least half a dozen new sherrins for pre-season training next year for them 3.
Not sure about Sherrins, maybe Burleys. And maybe loaned to us.

Why would we think the lowest players on our list or massively under performing players on our list are worth anything?

[LostDoggy]

Cooney - pick 15-25 (we would be winning that trade)
Higgins & 3rd round pick - early 2nd round pick
Minno - mid 1st round comp pick or 1st round pick upgrade & early 2nd rounder

Think that's all we have to work with...... Everyone else are kids in the build or too low in market value to trade. We woudn't get value and are better off delisting or trying to develop ourselves. Or they are stars who are clubmen and won't/can't go.

:eek: Seems like everytime the bloke is injured someone talks about getting rid of him.
He will be back shortly a remind everyone how good he is!

Cooney is a an absolute star and you don't trade stars period!

[Cyberdoggie]

J Grant, Veszpremi and Howard in a package deal for the third round pick in the rookie draft.

You thinking Melbourne might fall for this one?

:p

[jeemak]

:eek: Seems like everytime the bloke is injured someone talks about getting rid of him.
He will be back shortly a remind everyone how good he is!

Cooney is a an absolute star and you don't trade stars period!

If you can get the value you need, anyone is tradeable.

A first round draft pick for Cooney would have to be tempting to us, as would a first round upgrade of a few places and a second rounder if we had the later first round pick available to us.

I love him, he's been my favourite player and his predicament has been a massive shame for him first and foremost, and our club. But he's only gotten through a half season and is injured currently, with a reasonable question mark over his longevity.

If he gets through the season and plays reasonable football for its remainder, any pragmatic list manager would consider a valuable offer for him, considering our list position and the need for us to continually regenerate alongside the queries on the remainder of his career.

[Remi Moses]

Dead right ^^
Everyone bar a few are tradeable.

[LostDoggy]

If you can get the value you need, anyone is tradeable.

A first round draft pick for Cooney would have to be tempting to us, as would a first round upgrade of a few places and a second rounder if we had the later first round pick available to us.

I love him, he's been my favourite player and his predicament has been a massive shame for him first and foremost, and our club. But he's only gotten through a half season and is injured currently, with a reasonable question mark over his longevity.

If he gets through the season and plays reasonable football for its remainder, any pragmatic list manager would consider a valuable offer for him, considering our list position and the need for us to continually regenerate alongside the queries on the remainder of his career.

How many first round picks have we wasted?
I agree some players are tradeable, Cooney's not one of them.

The massive shame is that we have been robbed of having him and Griffen both fit at the same time. 3 weeks ago Cooney was leading or in the top 3 of some of our key stats....Untouchable.

[jeemak]

How many first round picks have we wasted?
I agree some players are tradeable, Cooney's not one of them.

The massive shame is that we have been robbed of having him and Griffen both fit at the same time. 3 weeks ago Cooney was leading or in the top 3 of some of our key stats....Untouchable.

But what if he doesn't play out the second half of the season as well as he played out the first half, or what if he misses one or two games with knee soreness?

At this point in time I think it would be wise to keep an open mind on Adam Cooney's future at our club.

We have been robbed by the nature of Cooney's injury, agreed. Many players get a few big injuries through their careers, but not many get degenerative injuries. The former have a very good chance of coming back to playing decent football with limited questions over them, while the latter have many questions over them due to the nature of their injury/injuries.

While he's played some very good football for us this year, Cooney at this stage of the season has taken a very encouraging step forwards, but not a complete stride by any stretch.

[LostDoggy]

But what if he doesn't play out the second half of the season as well as he played out the first half, or what if he misses one or two games with knee soreness?

At this point in time I think it would be wise to keep an open mind on Adam Cooney's future at our club.

We have been robbed by the nature of Cooney's injury, agreed. Many players get a few big injuries through their careers, but not many get degenerative injuries. The former have a very good chance of coming back to playing decent football with limited questions over them, while the latter have many questions over them due to the nature of their injury/injuries.

While he's played some very good football for us this year, Cooney at this stage of the season has taken a very encouraging step forwards, but not a complete stride by any stretch.

If Adam doesn't play out the second half as well as the first, then a first round pick won't be on the table at all. So there's no way we would even consider an upgrade or a second rounder for him.
I think we should be prepared and except the odd game or two missed for soreness, managing his games will have to be a priority.

Whatever happens he will have a reduced contract next year and I for one am really looking forward to his second half of the year. Marty Pask is his Ambassador of Quan.

[LostDoggy]

Not sure about Sherrins, maybe Burleys. And maybe loaned to us.

Why would we think the lowest players on our list or massively under performing players on our list are worth anything?

It's your classic trade week viewpoint of any fan. Let's give up the players we want to see leave, and get a star forward for them. Of course the opposition team will agree to it.

[Throughandthrough]

No club in the AFL would give up a first round pick for Cooney.

[Mofra]

These guys have zero value, I doubt we'd even use the pick we get. Cale Morton, same draft as Jarrad Grant, traded for pick 88.
This is a fair guide - if another team wanted any of them, we'd engineer a late pick trade (even if we didn't use it) to get them to their club of choice.

[G-Mo77]

This is a fair guide - if another team wanted any of them, we'd engineer a late pick trade (even if we didn't use it) to get them to their club of choice.

I think we can drive up Grant's value slightly if he can get some games. Best case scenario a 3rd rounder.

[F'scary]

I think we can drive up Grant's value slightly if he can get some games. Best case scenario a 3rd rounder.

That's pretty much what I thought about J Grant. 44-66. We should be able to get this, he was a #5 pick, has 50 games, has heaps of skills, is still young. For us he has become a frustrating mystery. Other clubs, not yet frustrated, may be interested in a mystery.

The decision is either give him another year or trade him for whatever you can get - it will still be better than the replacement pick at the end of the cue (100+) you get for a straight delisting. I focus on Grant because I think some other clubs would be interested at around pick 50 in trade week. Veszpremi, Howard, et al, I am not as confident on.

One idea that I have about keeping Grant is in fact to debulk him and concentrate on building up speed, stamina & agility with a view having him play an outside role, including leading up behind centre for the short pass out of defence or across the ground.

[LostDoggy]

Debulk Grant? He'd fall through drain grates.

[F'scary]

Debulk Grant? He'd fall through drain grates.

:p

But seriously, there's been a few players over the past x years who have bulked up too much and done better when that idea was abandoned. Brendon Goddard springs to mind.

[AndrewP6]

:p

But seriously, there's been a few players over the past x years who have bulked up too much and done better when that idea was abandoned. Brendon Goddard springs to mind.

Surely you're not suggesting Grant is too heavy?

[lemmon]

Surely you're not suggesting Grant is too heavy?

Its an odd suggestion, I don't see how he could get any thinner :confused:

[F'scary]

Its an odd suggestion, I don't see how he could get any thinner :confused:

In context, I talked about it in terms of strengthening his speed, stamina & agility. A rebuild from a player trying to carry as much weight as can be added to a player who is built for speed and can run all day. Could be the go.

[AndrewP6]

In context, I talked about it in terms of strengthening his speed, stamina & agility. A rebuild from a player trying to carry as much weight as can be added to a player who is built for speed and can run all day. Could be the go.

Could be if it were athletics. It's a body on body sport, he gets knocked over in a stiff breeze.

[FrediKanoute]

I think we can drive up Grant's value slightly if he can get some games. Best case scenario a 3rd rounder.

Disagree, if Grant plays and plays well he may well increase to a third rounder, but the question then becomes whether we would want to trade him.

Its circular. To increase in value they have to play and show something. If they play and show something it creates a question of whether you want to trade them.

Grant will be delisted at the end of the year and if lucky will be picked up as a rookie by a club. At best we will swap him for another guy on another list who has also underperformed.

[Ghost Dog]

Playing grant might cause a headache.
Fear he might show enough to jag an extension,
eking out another year.

[Remi Moses]

Jarrad had a chance against the toughest VFL opponent.
He failed to make an imprint .
I think he is gone at seasons end.

[SlimPickens]

Jarrad had a chance against the toughest VFL opponent.
He failed to make an imprint .
I think he is gone at seasons end.

Agree, would be very surprised If we see him in the tri-colours again.

3rd round pick possibly at the trade table.

[chef]

Jarrad had a chance against the toughest VFL opponent.
He failed to make an imprint .
I think he is gone at seasons end.

Yep, I reckon he's gone at seasons end too. But i doubt anyone will pick him up.

[bulldogtragic]

Yep, I reckon he's gone at seasons end too. But i doubt anyone will pick him up.
Why would anyone want him?

He's a veteran of the AFL system, who was highly rated, has achieved nothing, and failed to cement a KPF position in a team of midgets and shows no signs of talent anymore.

It hurts to say this, but it's true. He's a massive disappointment and goes down on the long list of talented players we've had who have not made it.

[1eyedog]

How many games has Jones played compared to Grant and what has Jones showed that Grant hasn't? An ability to mark the ball and a stronger ethic? Jones has absolutely no idea how to run around on the footy field.

I'm not sure what the numbers are but I reckon Jones and Grant have played the same amount of games and I reckon they've kicked the same amount of goals, Grant maybe more. Lasty year we were talking about Jones not making it. I can't see a huge amount of difference where they're at to be honest and Jones only gets the gig each week because there is not a better option.

Grant isn't a Reserves player that's all I know.

[bulldogtragic]

How many games has Jones played compared to Grant and what has Jones showed that Grant hasn't? An ability to mark the ball and a stronger ethic? Jones has absolutely no idea how to run around on the footy field.

I'm not sure what the numbers are but I reckon Jones and Grant have played the same amount of games and I reckon they've kicked the same amount of goals, Grant maybe more. Lasty year we were talking about Jones not making it. I can't see a huge amount of difference where they're at to be honest and Jones only gets the gig each week because there is not a better option.

Grant isn't a Reserves player that's all I know.
Grant: 50 games, 57 goals

Jones: 48 games, 47 goals

Read into that what you will.

[Greystache]

How many games has Jones played compared to Grant and what has Jones showed that Grant hasn't? An ability to mark the ball and a stronger ethic? Jones has absolutely no idea how to run around on the footy field.

I'm not sure what the numbers are but I reckon Jones and Grant have played the same amount of games and I reckon they've kicked the same amount of goals, Grant maybe more. Lasty year we were talking about Jones not making it. I can't see a huge amount of difference where they're at to be honest and Jones only gets the gig each week because there is not a better option.

Grant isn't a Reserves player that's all I know.

I don't recall Grant ever being double or triple teamed, nor has he ever had to take on the opposition best defender. They're not the same type of player anyway, Jones is a key position player, Grant is a tall small forward.

[jeemak]

I don't recall Grant ever being double or triple teamed, nor has he ever had to take on the opposition best defender. They're not the same type of player anyway, Jones is a key position player, Grant is a tall small forward.

By extension of that 'stache, Grant has had significantly less supply. Sure he thrived under Hall's shadow where he kicked 30 goals in a season, but that was when our side was only starting to really diminish in its ability to move the ball forward with fluidity and accuracy.

On ability and output in the seniors, Grant should be getting games as a developing productive forward, though I fear there's more to his current predicament. Hey may have an ordinary attitude, he may be playing with a bunch of guys that don't like him, or the coaching staff just don't see him as a player that fits within their long term plans.

It's probably a mix of those things, but it can't be output or talent versus his peers.

IMO if you put him in our seniors this year he'd have increased output than when he played last year due to our ability to stay in games longer, but alas, it seems his papers have been stamped.

He gets bagged for not dominating at Willi, but would 2 goals in a game for them translate to 2 goals in a game to the senior team for him? IMO they would.

[Bulldog Joe]

Not sure why there is so much love for Grant.

Even in his relatively good year in 2010 he was really disappointing when it counted.

After kicking 6 in round 22 against a very weak Essendon, he was missing in action and an absolute non-contributor in 3 finals games.

He has had plenty of opportunity since then and simply not been good enough.

Whatever his issue is I just cannot see him making it anywhere and it is time he found something else to do with his life.

He and Veszpremi are at the top of my delist category and there is just no way we will get any trade offer for either of them.

[1eyedog]

I don't recall Grant ever being double or triple teamed, nor has he ever had to take on the opposition best defender. They're not the same type of player anyway, Jones is a key position player, Grant is a tall small forward.

I know. I'm not comparing their roles I'm just comparing output and benefit to the team in terms of their ability to hit the scoreboard. I'd wager Grant's goal assist count would be much higher too. Until we get a foil for Jones he will continue to be double teamed. My issue with Jones is his positioning, he doesn't look like a natural forward. He marks like a KPP but moves like a flanker. I don't think he is suited to playing deep.

I'm just looking at it from a purely statistical viewpoint and then comparing that with most WOOF posters view that Grant will be gone by the end of the year.

[1eyedog]

Not sure why there is so much love for Grant.

Even in his relatively good year in 2010 he was really disappointing when it counted.

After kicking 6 in round 22 against a very weak Essendon, he was missing in action and an absolute non-contributor in 3 finals games.

He has had plenty of opportunity since then and simply not been good enough.

Whatever his issue is I just cannot see him making it anywhere and it is time he found something else to do with his life.

He and Veszpremi are at the top of my delist category and there is just no way we will get any trade offer for either of them.

Sorry to double post but IMO there are a number of players who have not come on the way we want. I've already spoken about Jones (who I think should keep playing because he will be a good player) but there's also Wood and even Higgins who go missing in action for weeks on end. I'm sorry but I don't know what you except from a 50 game player, you expect more from Grant than you do from Wood and Jones anyway.

I think it's more to do with what Jeemak says about attitude and not fitting into the bigger context, rather than his potential output for us on the footy field.

[Bulldog Joe]

Sorry to double post but IMO there are a number of players who have not come on the way we want. I've already spoken about Jones (who I think should keep playing because he will be a good player) but there's also Wood and even Higgins who go missing in action for weeks on end. I'm sorry but I don't know what you except from a 50 game player, you expect more from Grant than you do from Wood and Jones anyway. I think it's more to do with what Jeemak says about attitude and not fitting into the bigger context, rather than his potential output for us on the footy field.

What I expect is improvement.

Unfortunately for Grant, his best games were in 2010 and he has had 3 years to give us a glimmer that there was actually something he could build on. He has failed to deliver and even his VFL form has deteriorated.

Jones, while still having plenty to do, has at least produced his best form this year.

Wood, has had ongoing injury problems, but prior to the hamstring injury last season, he was actually playing probably his best game. Wood has shown improvement when fit.

[GetDimmaBack]

I think Grant is one of those players who would be pretty good in a strong side. He might even be the icing on the cake for a premiership contender.

It's just that he's not the sort of player you can build a young side around. Hasn't got the presence or the grunt. I reckon Higgins is a similar type, FWIW.

[LostDoggy]

Its an odd suggestion, I don't see how he could get any thinner :confused:
Let's take the way he looks with his spindly frame out of the equation for a moment.
He is listed as 85 kilograms. That's 3 more than last year and a fair few more than when he was drafted. Rumour is he has had problems with injury and illness this year, could it be related to the 3 kilos he has put on? Seems ridiculous and if memory serves he put on one of those mid year last year. But who really knows, anything is possible.

[lemmon]

Let's take the way he looks with his spindly frame out of the equation for a moment.
He is listed as 85 kilograms. That's 3 more than last year and a fair few more than when he was drafted. Rumour is he has had problems with injury and illness this year, could it be related to the 3 kilos he has put on? Seems ridiculous and if memory serves he put on one of those mid year last year. But who really knows, anything is possible.

Don't buy that in the least, three kilos is nothing. These guys lose half a kilo in fluid a game. To suggest that 3 kilos is impacting his fitness (I can't recall him being injured anyway) or that he is slowed by the weight he's gained since he was drafted in my mind is impossible. The initial suggestion was that by taking off the weight he'd gained would somehow make him quicker...does anyone actually believe that?

[LostDoggy]

Don't buy that in the least, three kilos is nothing. These guys lose half a kilo in fluid a game. To suggest that 3 kilos is impacting his fitness (I can't recall him being injured anyway) or that he is slowed by the weight he's gained since he was drafted in my mind is impossible. The initial suggestion was that by taking off the weight he'd gained would somehow make him quicker...does anyone actually believe that?

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-05-29/bulldogs-apply-the-heat-to-their-own


Jarrad Grant was another who performed well for Williamstown, kicking four goals.

"He played well. It was probably a little bit of mixed messaging where he was for a couple of weeks. We have an arrangement with our alignment club where only a certain amount can play," said McCartney.

"He missed quite a few games with injuries and soreness through the first part of the year so he's just now getting some consistency of training and I'm sure he'll build some pretty good form."

According to Macca. I think he missed 1-2 weeks

I do agree that 3 kilos shouldn't make much difference, but Grant has a pretty strange body type based on his inability to put on much weight despite having had a few specific bulk building strategies

Just to add to that, due to a few factors I think Grant has really been struggling with confidence, I believe he was named as an emergency this week as a reminder that he is in the minds of to coaching staff and to try to give him some confidence.
I hope it works but am not holding my breath.

[LostDoggy]

There are keepers. Then there are others who could be up for a draft pick swap.

Possibly on our trade table at the end of the season:

J Grant
Howard
Veszpremi

for example.

You may have some others.

What should we except in return for them?

Would pick 45 be good enough for Grant, for example?

Your thoughts appreciated.

A Pie , bag of chips and a coke.

[bulldogtragic]

I'd play Grant for the rest of the year. He won't change our fortunes, but he may increase any possible value. Worth a shot.

[Doc26]

I'd play Grant for the rest of the year. He won't change our fortunes, but he may increase any possible value. Worth a shot.

I would only select Grant if we had any doubt left on his potential to be retained to add long term value otherwise we're only denying others to be either further assessed e.g Markovic, Tutt, possibly Howard or developed e.g Roberts, Hunter, Hrovat etc.

[Hotdog60]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-05-29/bulldogs-apply-the-heat-to-their-own
I do agree that 3 kilos shouldn't make much difference, but Grant has a pretty strange body type based on his inability to put on much weight despite having had a few specific bulk building strategies



I would put on 3 kilos in a pizza and beer night.:D