Helping Ayce Make It

[bulldogtragic]

This is a constructive thread, please keep it on track.

Ayce was touted as a top 3 pick. He was picked and endorsed by two AFL coaches and match committees. He was re-signed recently. That means for this period is a 'required player'.He will be in the tri colours next year as a contracted player - so how does the club harness his talent?

- keep the status quo, play him into form or risk a full loss of confidence?
- let him dominate the VFL?
- focus on next year after another pre-season?
- with his height advantage, try him more in the ruck?
- try other positions, maybe down back?
- other?

[F'scary]

Let him dominate the VFL and learn to earn a place in the side as the number 1 ruckman when Will is past it in 2-5 years.

[F'scary]

If he has a bad season in the VFL next year and doesn't earn a call up or if given the opportunity due, say, to suspension to Big Will and doesn't take it, then hasta la vista, baby.

[Hot_Doggies]

Always seems to be in a wrestle with opponent and battles to get two hands up. Would like to see him run and jump.

Maybe more strength and confidence would help eradicate this problem.

[mighty_west]

Keep developing him as a ruckman, is clearly not a natural forward and especially with Roughead playing down back.

[bornadog]

Let him dominate the VFL and learn to earn a place in the side as the number 1 ruckman when Will is past it in 2-5 years.


If he has a bad season in the VFL next year and doesn't earn a call up or if given the opportunity due, say, to suspension to Big Will and doesn't take it, then hasta la vista, baby.


Keep developing him as a ruckman, is clearly not a natural forward and especially with Roughead playing down back.

all of this sums it up.

He is not a FF backside, and the sooner Macca realises the better for the whole team.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

We should forget Ayce as a key forward and give him an opportunity to become purely a ruckman starting back at Williamstown. Cordy doesn't have the skill or mobility to make it as a forward. It is beginning to become an embarrassment that the MC cannot see this logic.

[DOG GOD]

Play him in the ruk in the VFL next year, and only bring him into the seniors if big will gets injured.

[LostDoggy]

I've seen the theory that he's still anxious about his shoulders, I think it may be right.

[Dry Rot]

if he's not a forward and I don't think he's a good ruckman, then what's left?

Backline? Giant midfielder?

[The Doctor]

if he's not a forward and I don't think he's a good ruckman, then what's left?

Backline? Giant midfielder?

Amateurs

[bornadog]

Amateurs

Minyip seconds

[LostDoggy]

if he's not a forward and I don't think he's a good ruckman, then what's left?

Backline? Giant midfielder?

He still hasn't got his athleticism from his junior days back, he looks worried that he might dislocate his shoulders during marking contests, very concerning.

[LostDoggy]

Shame he didn't get a kick at all today. 5 handballs. Blustery conditions didn't help, but his hardness, confidence and pace just aren't there currently.

[bulldogtragic]

Shame he didn't get a kick at all today. 5 handballs. Blustery conditions didn't help, but his hardness, confidence and pace just aren't there currently.
I havent yet had the courage to watch the replay. No kicks.... Really, was he injured, benched or anything???

[bornadog]

I havent yet had the courage to watch the replay. No kicks.... Really, was he injured, benched or anything???

No he just sat there doing nothing

[Bumper Bulldogs]

The problem he has is that he just refuses to lead up to the ball carrier, he wants to wristle but hasn't the strength to do so. The issue the kid has is he is playing how the coach is asking him to, otherwise he would be dragged off.
Went to the game today and had a good look at him, he just put pressure on the others as his man just peeled off and chopped out the other forwards. When we didn't have the ball he refused to pick up and chase.

[Greystache]

I havent yet had the courage to watch the replay. No kicks.... Really, was he injured, benched or anything???

No he played the whole game at full forward with just a couple of very short stints rucking. He has so little mobility however it seemed like he wouldn't have covered more that 2km for the match.

He can't mark and had no mobility so anything other than being a specialist tap ruckman isn't an option. I doubt he's strong enough to be an AFL ruckman but that's how it is.

[bulldogtragic]

The problem he has is that he just refuses to lead up to the ball carrier, he wants to wristle but hasn't the strength to do so. The issue the kid has is he is playing how the coach is asking him to, otherwise he would be dragged off.
Went to the game today and had a good look at him, he just put pressure on the others as his man just peeled off and chopped out the other forwards. When we didn't have the ball he refused to pick up and chase.
Interesting point, I hadn't thought of it that way. Is he playing the way BMac wants him to or can't he do it? Neither answer is great, but surely BMac I telling him to lead and create not wrestle stronger men...

[Sedat]

His only hope of making it is as a full time ruckman. He needs to get himself as fit and strong as he possibly can, go back to the 2nds next year and become a dominant ruckman at that level. He then bides his time until Wilbur loses form/retires.

He has no future as a key forward.

[The Doctor]

I havent yet had the courage to watch the replay. No kicks.... Really, was he injured, benched or anything???

no just normal.

I wonder what the MC saw in him to give him a game? Something no one else on the planet saw.

Perhaps he was chosen as the forward/relief ruckman. Yet he is yet to prove he can do either even at VFL level and consequently no justification for promotion to the seniors. Surely this brings our MC into question.

If he was chosen because we needed ruck support for Minson further highlights our recruiting bungles of recent times. Roughead, should be our current no.2 but he is now in defence. Why haven't we recruited key defenders so Roughy can help in the ruck? Yet if Roughead is seen as our KP defender saviour why haven't we recruited a genuine ruckman to support Will? Are we too obsessed with crack in midfielders? Does this now bring our recruiting/list managing into question?

[bulldogtragic]

no just normal.

I wonder what the MC saw in him to give him a game? Something no one else on the planet saw.

Perhaps he was chosen as the forward/relief ruckman. Yet he is yet to prove he can do either even at VFL level and consequently no justification for promotion to the seniors. Surely this brings our MC into question.

If he was chosen because we needed ruck support for Minson further highlights our recruiting bungles of recent times. Roughead, should be our current no.2 but he is now in defence. Why haven't we recruited key defenders so Roughy can help in the ruck? Yet if Roughead is seen as our KP defender saviour why haven't we recruited a genuine ruckman to support Will? Are we too obsessed with crack in midfielders? Does this now bring our recruiting/list managing into question?
I feel your pain Doc. I've said my piece over the last bit on WOOF and it seems this view is too premature. The bulk of the woofers/members want to wait until next year to ask these questions. This year is already written really and the coach upfront said 5 years and Gordo said this year was going to be full of losses with some beltings. So I guess it's hard to hold therm to a higher standard when the expectations were so low. But I can see exactly where you are coming from.

[jeemak]

no just normal.

I wonder what the MC saw in him to give him a game? Something no one else on the planet saw.

Perhaps he was chosen as the forward/relief ruckman. Yet he is yet to prove he can do either even at VFL level and consequently no justification for promotion to the seniors. Surely this brings our MC into question.

If he was chosen because we needed ruck support for Minson further highlights our recruiting bungles of recent times. Roughead, should be our current no.2 but he is now in defence. Why haven't we recruited key defenders so Roughy can help in the ruck? Yet if Roughead is seen as our KP defender saviour why haven't we recruited a genuine ruckman to support Will? Are we too obsessed with crack in midfielders? Does this now bring our recruiting/list managing into question?

Who were the crack in midfielders we recruited last year?

What's Talia's role, and what's Roberts being groomed as now?

Why did we recruit Campbell?

Our recruiting and list management has been absolutely rooted up until about two years ago. Jury is out a little on the current lot in charge, but they seem to be bringing in a pretty good balance at the moment.

[bornadog]

If Ayce can't make it then Roberts needs to step up to the plate. If that doesn't work we either go small in
the forward line or move Roughead and try Redpath. We got rid of one of the best fullbacks we have ever had and now we need a solution for another KPP.

[Remi Moses]

I just think Ayce isn't big enough to wrestle with the big full backs and doesn't have the Athleticism to lead up .
If anything he's a ruckman, but this will take time.

[The Doctor]

If anything he's a ruckman, but this will take time.

What is this based on? I haven't seen him ruck well against anyone of AFL ability.

[G-Mo77]

What is this based on? I haven't seen him ruck well against anyone of AFL ability.

I don't recall him spelling Will at all today apart from contests close to goal. Being the backup ruck is the only justification I have for having him in the team if he's not doing that he shouldn't be there.

[Remi Moses]

What is this based on? I haven't seen him ruck well against anyone of AFL ability.

Ruckman don't come good until their late 20's as a rule
I.E Will Minson
I see Ayce only making it in that spot personally.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I've said it from day one; he can't play. There is nothing even half adequate about his game.

[The Doctor]

Ruckman don't come good until their late 20's as a rule
I.E Will Minson
I see Ayce only making it in that spot personally.

I have never doubted Minson would be a good ruckman. In 2005 I saw Minson shoving it down the throat of Cooney against the mighty Brisbane Lions who had come off 4 GF's in a row. It was a sight to see and we won. Minson would have been the same age or younger than Cordy is now. What has Ayce done to convince you he is worth persevering with as a ruckman?

[FrediKanoute]

I think we am need to take some chill pills with Ayce. He is tall and as a rule they take longer to develop. He is also a beanpole who needed to bulk up. He missed 2 full seasons of development because of shoulder injuries and has come back from a lengthy lay off.

He will come good. He just needs time.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think we am need to take some chill pills with Ayce. He is tall and as a rule they take longer to develop. He is also a beanpole who needed to bulk up. He missed 2 full seasons of development because of shoulder injuries and has come back from a lengthy lay off.

He will come good. He just needs time.

What areas of his game look competent at AFL level? Stripping it back further, what areas has Ayce demonstrated that he'll be able to develop into competency?

He has very little intensity, he's a terrible mark, severely lacks body strength and is as slow as they come. This is without going into other areas of his game (goal kicking, leading, positioning).

The reality is that Ayce has shown nothing at AFL level. Not one single area of his game. I haven't watched every VFL game he's played, but from those I've seen, he's not effective there either for the same reasons. They are only exemplified further at AFL level when the bar is raised.

Blaming his injuries don't excuse the basic fundamentals which he lacks. It doesn't excuse his severe lack of intensity in contests. I don't mean this to be a dig at you Fredi by any means, but I think the club as a whole constantly provides excuses for Ayce and keep saying "he needs time, he'll come good". He hasn't improved an inch in two years of consistent footy, and that doesn't look like changing.

[boydogs]

He will come good. He just needs time.

He needs some confidence that's for sure, 0 kicks and 0 marks tell me he's not attacking the ball like he should be, regardless of his skill level

[Scraggers]

He needs some confidence that's for sure, 0 kicks and 0 marks tell me he's not attacking the ball like he should be, regardless of his skill level

My issue is more that he goes to every marking contest with one hand. I am willing to give him time to develop as soon as he uses two hands. Has he not realised he is 7 foot 15 ?? He towers above most that he plays on, but he is trying to contest the mark one handed ... Get both of those big plate-handed dukes up there sunshine !!

[Remi Moses]

I have never doubted Minson would be a good ruckman. In 2005 I saw Minson shoving it down the throat of Cooney against the mighty Brisbane Lions who had come off 4 GF's in a row. It was a sight to see and we won. Minson would have been the same age or younger than Cordy is now. What has Ayce done to convince you he is worth persevering with as a ruckman?

It's his age and his lack of games due to injury that will keep him on the list .
I think he's athletic enough around the ground , but he needs bulk.
My gut feel is he won't make it.
The club clearly thought differently on Minson, as they were willing to trade him in 2010.
Gold Coast preferred Fraser.

[Hotdog60]

If Ayce can't make it then Roberts needs to step up to the plate. If that doesn't work we either go small in
the forward line or move Roughead and try Redpath. We got rid of one of the best fullbacks we have ever had and now we need a solution for another KPP.

This may well happen BAD, Redpath has been moved to the backline and reports have him progressing well. So we may well see Roughy move forward and relief ruck with Redpath full back. But at 194cm is he big enough.

[FrediKanoute]

What areas of his game look competent at AFL level? Stripping it back further, what areas has Ayce demonstrated that he'll be able to develop into competency?

He has very little intensity, he's a terrible mark, severely lacks body strength and is as slow as they come. This is without going into other areas of his game (goal kicking, leading, positioning).

The reality is that Ayce has shown nothing at AFL level. Not one single area of his game. I haven't watched every VFL game he's played, but from those I've seen, he's not effective there either for the same reasons. They are only exemplified further at AFL level when the bar is raised.

Blaming his injuries don't excuse the basic fundamentals which he lacks. It doesn't excuse his severe lack of intensity in contests. I don't mean this to be a dig at you Fredi by any means, but I think the club as a whole constantly provides excuses for Ayce and keep saying "he needs time, he'll come good". He hasn't improved an inch in two years of consistent footy, and that doesn't look like changing.

No I understand yours and everyone's frustration with the kid. We are a poor team at the moment and that isn't helping his cause. I see a very athletic Big guy who has reasonable skills that I expect to develop into a mobile ruck. He is not a natural forwa!rd, but he did show glimpses pre-orderinjury of what he can be.

AM I disappointEd in his development, yes. Do I thinking is a lost cause, no.

[The Doctor]

The club clearly thought differently on Minson, as they were willing to trade him in 2010.
Gold Coast preferred Fraser.

We can thank our lucky stars that didn't happen.

[Topdog]

yep would have been a very short sighted move.

[F'scary]

This may well happen BAD, Redpath has been moved to the backline and reports have him progressing well. So we may well see Roughy move forward and relief ruck with Redpath full back. But at 194cm is he big enough.

This Redpath. He has a good nick-name: "The Widow-Maker." If a player can attract a good nickname like that, it usually means he is a good player. Note that Cordy has not attracted a good nick-name. That is indicative to me. Seeing that the Ayce is not worth a spot in the seniors, maybe just promote The Widow-Maker and start playing him at full back, releasing Pretty Boy Roughead for FP/2nd Ruck? Maybe play "Chevy Chase" Fletch(er) at full forward, Jones at CHF?

[The Pie Man]

What is this based on? I haven't seen him ruck well against anyone of AFL ability.

Because it hasn't been part of his role to date.

I share your view on Ayce - he's deficient in many areas, and yesterday was possibly the worst game of footy I've seen anyone ever play at that level...Skinner had more impact as the sub on debut than Ayce yesterday.

Playing 1st ruck at VFL for at least all of 2014 seems the only lifeline available (or a blind MC) ..I'm only basing that on him being tall, knowing the rules of the game & being contracted through to COB 2015.

I'll laugh myself stupid if he's picked to play Essendon. I'm not trying to overly emotional & harsh about it...I speak about this in more colorful language with my frustrated Bulldog supporting family.

FWIW I have a hunch he *could* be an ok ruckman one day. He idolized Dean Cox growing up, so I suspect he'd like a crack at it at least.

[G-Mo77]

Playing 1st ruck at VFL for at least all of 2014 seems the only lifeline available (or a blind MC) ..I'm only basing that on him being tall, knowing the rules of the game & being contracted through to COB 2015.


There lies a problem though. I know I'd like to get games into Ayce as the #1 ruck at VFL I'm thinking the MC might as well but that's virtually impossible with Wood playing first ruck there and Campbell backing him up. He'd have to go down to VFL 2's. We've got him for 2 more years and the Footscray team will be a blessing for him.....hopefully.

[Bulldog4life]

The fact is whether all posters like it or not Ayce signed a 3 year contract with us last year. In my opinion...probably won't be too many agreeing with me.... I hope the Club perserveres with him for the remainder of the year as a forward cum ruckman. We have nothing to lose. The season is over for us. What is the point playing him as a ruckman in the VFL now when the Club has earmarked him for the full forward role for a while now. The ball coming into our forward line has been poor so we can't blame Jones & Cordy entirely. Next year if we trade or draft for a key forward well the jury will be out on Cordy then, but for the rest of the year we have nothing to lose....he might just surprise a few people.

[boydogs]

There lies a problem though. I know I'd like to get games into Ayce as the #1 ruck at VFL I'm thinking the MC might as well but that's virtually impossible with Wood playing first ruck there and Campbell backing him up. He'd have to go down to VFL 2's. We've got him for 2 more years and the Footscray team will be a blessing for him.....hopefully.

Remember next year we will have our own VFL side and be minus Wood. Campbell would be the only issue

[bulldogtragic]

I will try to compare apples.

202cm, 100kg
Mainly played basketball as a junior
Tall speculative type
High draft pick

The near identical player I can find is Kurt Tippett. He was drafted two years before Cordy. So you would need to compare Tippetts 2011 with Ayces 2013.

Tippett 2011:

31 goals in 18 games - this was his worst year for goal scoring averages since his rookie year (1.7 goals)
12.1 possies
4.7 marks

Ayce 2013:

5 goals in 5 games (1.0 goals)
8 possies
1.4 marks


Make of it what you will.

[Bulldog4life]

I will try to compare apples.

202cm, 100kg
Mainly played basketball as a junior
Tall speculative type
High draft pick

The near identical player I can find is Kurt Tippett. He was drafted two years before Cordy. So you would need to compare Tippetts 2011 with Ayces 2013.

Tippett 2011:

31 goals in 18 games - this was his worst year for goal scoring averages since his rookie year (1.7 goals)
12.1 possies
4.7 marks

Ayce 2013:

5 goals in 5 games (1.0 goals)
8 possies
1.4 marks


Make of it what you will.

But BT you started this thread "Helping Ayce Make It". How does your post help Ayce make it? Should your post be on another thread?

[G-Mo77]

Remember next year we will have our own VFL side and be minus Wood. Campbell would be the only issue

And I can't wait for 2014. Our kids aren't getting the games they need. They'll learn very little running around in the development league. We do have to wear some of the blame for that though.

[bulldogtragic]

But BT you started this thread "Helping Ayce Make It". How does your post help Ayce make it? Should your post be on another thread?
Well, not everything I say is negative :)

I found it interesting that Tippett had something of a lower year in his comparative year. 4 more possies and three marks a game is more, but it is not way more. Take into account all Ayces injuries, including this year which Tippett didnt have to endure, and you could argue that while Ayces 2013 has been disappointing, it is this kind of thinking that the coaches are on about. Tippett is a gun, but had a lesser parallel year like Ayce is. Sure it's not quite as bad, but I'm trying my best to be 'half full', not 'half empty'.

What have I posted wrong, I don't understand. If its on the wrong thread, tell me which one it should be on. Cheers.

[Bulldog4life]

Well, not everything I say is negative :)

I found it interesting that Tippett had something of a lower year in his comparative year. 4 more possies and three marks a game is more, but it is not way more. Take into account all Ayces injuries, including this year which Tippett didnt have to endure, and you could argue that while Ayces 2013 has been disappointing, it is this kind of thinking that the coaches are on about. Tippett is a gun, but had a lesser parallel year like Ayce is. Sure it's not quite as bad, but I'm trying my best to be 'half full', not 'half empty'.

What have I posted wrong, I don't understand. If its on the wrong thread, tell me which one it should be on. Cheers.

Good come back.:)

[FrediKanoute]

The only other point I'd make re Ayce is that if he doesn't play FF who does? Marco is a hack, Grant is not interested. Redpath is being groomed in the backline and Roberts is injured/coming back from injury. Campbell is less of a forward than Ayce.

Given where we are we may as well play him. At some point the penny has to drop and he will have that break out game. I also think the injury to Williams this year has caused major problems with the team structure. Williams (though not a proven forward) was supposed to provide another tall option to stretch teams and take pressure off Ayce and Jones. His injury has robbed the side of this.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

The fact is whether all posters like it or not Ayce signed a 3 year contract with us last year. In my opinion...probably won't be too many agreeing with me.... I hope the Club perserveres with him for the remainder of the year as a forward cum ruckman. We have nothing to lose. The season is over for us. What is the point playing him as a ruckman in the VFL now when the Club has earmarked him for the full forward role for a while now. The ball coming into our forward line has been poor so we can't blame Jones & Cordy entirely. Next year if we trade or draft for a key forward well the jury will be out on Cordy then, but for the rest of the year we have nothing to lose....he might just surprise a few people.

With Minson taking ninety per cent of the ruck work there is little value in playing Cordy who clearly isn't a forward. The best we can hope for is that Minson survives another two years before making way for Cordy, who needs to improve dramatically if he was to eventually make it as a ruckman.

[anfo27]

The only other point I'd make re Ayce is that if he doesn't play FF who does? Marco is a hack, Grant is not interested. Redpath is being groomed in the backline and Roberts is injured/coming back from injury. Campbell is less of a forward than Ayce.

Given where we are we may as well play him. At some point the penny has to drop and he will have that break out game. I also think the injury to Williams this year has caused major problems with the team structure. Williams (though not a proven forward) was supposed to provide another tall option to stretch teams and take pressure off Ayce and Jones. His injury has robbed the side of this.

Agree. You watch Ayce & think 'get rid of this kid he is hopeless' but who are the alternatives? As much as I dislike seeing Ayce out there I'd rather see him than Marko.

Ayce has been gifted games & it is time he started to help himself for a change!

[Dry Rot]

His play is misunderstood.

Cordy is pioneering the ZEN style of key position forward play, winning games via the mind while taking zero marks, zero kicks and kicking zero goals.

In time, his genius will be properly recognised.

[LostDoggy]

His play is misunderstood.

Cordy is pioneering the ZEN style of key position forward play, winning games via the mind while taking zero marks, zero kicks and kicking zero goals.

In time, his genius will be properly recognised.

May the force be with him

[LostDoggy]

His play is misunderstood.

Cordy is pioneering the ZEN style of key position forward play, winning games via the mind while taking zero marks, zero kicks and kicking zero goals.

In time, his genius will be properly recognised.

Genius ;)

If only his pained expression whenever he contests the ball transferred below his neck we may just have a player.

[Ghost Dog]

The only other point I'd make re Ayce is that if he doesn't play FF who does? Marco is a hack, Grant is not interested. Redpath is being groomed in the backline and Roberts is injured/coming back from injury. Campbell is less of a forward than Ayce.

Given where we are we may as well play him. At some point the penny has to drop and he will have that break out game. I also think the injury to Williams this year has caused major problems with the team structure. Williams (though not a proven forward) was supposed to provide another tall option to stretch teams and take pressure off Ayce and Jones. His injury has robbed the side of this.

Not a tall option. But, Easton Wood - could be the Andy Walker of the Western Bulldogs.
And not trying to reach the half way square from the back line might save his hamstrings.