Three Things I've Learned - Round 17 Edition

[GVGjr]

Here we go again, once the match against Hawthorn is completed post the three things you've learned as a result of the game.

Be constructive but be honest.

[Greystache]

Fire away

[Happy Days]

1. Jarrad Grant is a good footballer

2. Once our bottom 6 players stop being terrible and start being moderate we will improve rapidly

3. Josh Gibson spoiling, thanks to Danny Frawley, is so fundamentally important to the game that he gets an extra 3 seconds to finish the job

[G-Mo77]

3. Josh Gibson spoiling, thanks to Danny Frawley, is so fundamentally important to the game that he gets an extra 3 seconds to finish the job

I like that one. :D

[LostDoggy]

1. I thought we were better at stoppages today with enough players on the outside. However, we were smashed out of the middle at the start of the last q. Where were our players? And we seemed unable to arrest this before major damage was done. Minson was beaten and looked spent.

2. We do seem to be developing players who can run and carry, and are better at getting the ball into their hands. We certainly look better than a month ago, albeit there is much to improve on.

3. I think Dickson does the team things defensively, which is possibly why he gets a game. But he doesn't seem to be taking overhead marks like he did last year.

[always right]

1. Grant is doing everything right except finishing his work. He has attributes we desperately need.

2. In the short amount of time Hunter spends on the ground, he shows class and vision. Full game next week.

3. Rioli is judged far more kindly than any other footballer

[westdog54]

1. We need a second ruckman more than another key forward.
2. If we can get our execution right we could pinch an upset or two.
3. We're fitter and working harder than this time last year.

[DOG GOD]

1. Minson's can't be expected to ruck every game by himself

2. Grant has taken his chance

3. I wish the guys would use hunter more. I was at the game today, and I counted 3-4 times he was ignored by the likes of griff, gia and murph when he was in a great position.

[F'scary]

Missed the match but just looked at the player stats on Footywire and read the WOOF posts.

1, 2 & 3: there is no way Gia should be retired at the end of the year.

[Ghost Dog]

In our press conferences, our Coach spends too much time lauding the opposition.

Cyril Rioli gets butterflies in his stomach whenever he sees Liam Picken jogging over to him before a whistle.

I'm glad J Grant played well, but until his accuracy improves, he won't be reaching his potential.

[SlimPickens]

3. I wish the guys would use hunter more. I was at the game today, and I counted 3-4 times he was ignored by the likes of griff, gia and murph when he was in a great position.

Senior player syndrome? We have had a history of this.

1. Our young pups are doing our jumper proud

2. We need to learn from our goal missing mistakes, how many bloody times could we miss the goal to the right.

3. We are having a pretty ordinary run injury wise.

[DOG GOD]

Senior player syndrome? We have had a history of this

That's what I was thinking Slim. Hunter worked his arse off to run to the right spots and make space. I have no doubt that the players in question saw him but for some reason they didn't use him. He uses the ball as well as any pup in the team, and he has a good footy brain as well. I think he will be a beauty. Could be a Sam Mitchell type when he builds his body up.

[westdog54]

Missed the match but just looked at the player stats on Footywire and read the WOOF posts.

1, 2 & 3: there is no way Gia should be retired at the end of the year.

Part of me is so tempted to agree with you but I would hate, hate, hate to see him go on one year too many.

By all means retain him at the club in some capacity next year (Perhaps he and Crossy could play VFL), I just don't know whether playing on one more year is the way to go.

[The Underdog]

Part of me is so tempted to agree with you but I would hate, hate, hate to see him go on one year too many.

By all means retain him at the club in some capacity next year (Perhaps he and Crossy could play VFL), I just don't know whether playing on one more year is the way to go.

My issue if is he's taking the spot of a Hunter/Stringer for the sake of us keeping some games slightly closer or maybe improving our W/L ratio by 1 or 2 games. We need to keep the long term at the forefront of what we do with list management.

[westdog54]

My issue if is he's taking the spot of a Hunter/Stringer for the sake of us keeping some games slightly closer or maybe improving our W/L ratio by 1 or 2 games. We need to keep the long term at the forefront of what we do with list management.

Now why couldn't I have put it that way?:)

Well said.

[Mantis]

My issue if is he's taking the spot of a Hunter/Stringer for the sake of us keeping some games slightly closer or maybe improving our W/L ratio by 1 or 2 games. We need to keep the long term at the forefront of what we do with list management.

What happens if he is taking the spot of Dickson, Addison or Higgins (assuming he gets back)?

[The Doctor]

1. We need a second ruckman more than another key forward.


Cameron Wood :D

[The Underdog]

What happens if he is taking the spot of Dickson, Addison or Higgins (assuming he gets back)?

Well that's where the decision has to be made. I don't mind him playing again if it's in our best long term interests and he's probably a better option than those 3. My concern is more around younger guys not getting an opportunity. If that isn't an issue then ok, go for it.

[GVGjr]

1) The fade outs in the 3rd and 4th quarters that plagued us in the 2nd half of the season last year aren't an issue for us now.
2) The trade period this year will be interesting for us. We will have some cash to spend but I suspect we will struggle to attract quality players.
3) We continue to work way to hard to get the goals.

[ratsmac]

1) The future isn't as bleak as I thought after the GWS game.
2) Grant has plenty to offer this team, I hope he can keep up the effort.
3) The boys don't give in as easily as they have done in the past.

[Remi Moses]

My issue if is he's taking the spot of a Hunter/Stringer for the sake of us keeping some games slightly closer or maybe improving our W/L ratio by 1 or 2 games. We need to keep the long term at the forefront of what we do with list management.

Could not agree any more.

[Hotdog60]

1. We still lack the confidence to look to the inside to see players 30 metres clear on their own.
2. Hunter needs to play longer, so needs to start and then sub later if needed.
3. Will is tiring and the season is catching up. Maybe time to try Campbell for relief.

[Bulldog4life]

1. Macca is on the right path.

2. Coons can still be damaging.

3. Feel confident about the coming years.

[LostDoggy]

Was Minson tiring, in part, due to Hale's ability to run him around and gain separation from him? He made it hard for Will to position himself in the ruck the way he usually does, and he slipped away from Will on a number of occasions. I just thought he got beaten by a better player on the day, but how much of that was due to too much time rucking week after week is hard to tell. He certainly seemed to be struggling in the last quarter.

[bornadog]

Was Minson tiring, in part, due to Hale's ability to run him around and gain separation from him? He made it hard for Will to position himself in the ruck the way he usually does, and he slipped away from Will on a number of occasions. I just thought he got beaten by a better player on the day, but how much of that was due to too much time rucking week after week is hard to tell. He certainly seemed to be struggling in the last quarter.

The MC needs to find a solution for the second ruck role. Minson can't spend that much time in the ruck and its becoming harder and harder for him.

[G-Mo77]

The MC needs to find a solution for the second ruck role. Minson can't spend that much time in the ruck and its becoming harder and harder for him.

I said this in the game thread but I'd give him a week or two off at some stage. We can't play both Will and Campbell so it wouldn't hurt to give Campbell a week or two in the Seniors. He's earned a shot IMO.

[bornadog]

I said this in the game thread but I'd give him a week or two off at some stage. We can't play both Will and Campbell so it wouldn't hurt to give Campbell a week or two in the Seniors. He's earned a shot IMO.

Whilst I agree with you, we need a longer term solution. I actually can't see one at this stage as Campbell is not mobile enough. Not sure how mobile Roberts is and whether he can be a future solution.

Hawthorn use both Bailey and Hale quiet effectively.

[LostDoggy]

Went to the game yesterday and;
1. Our foot skills are horrible and we over handballed.
2. Will Minson cannot continue to be the sole ruckman. Hawthorn exposed this yesterday by rotating two ruckmen against him.
3. The forward line looks far better with Grant playing and has proven that the palm tree experiment was simply a failure.

[F'scary]

Went to the game yesterday and;

3. The forward line looks far better with Grant playing and has proven that the palm tree experiment was simply a failure.

:p :D

[LostDoggy]

1. Macca in his briefing for members during the off-season signalled Round 16 this year as when we'd start to see some pieces come together. He was spot on the mark.
2. I shouldn't be on match committee. Their changes/inclusions are usually far better than mine.
3. Hawthorn couldn't really give a toss.

[Sedat]

Hawthorn use both Bailey and Hale quiet effectively.
Hale is everything that Cordy isn't. Can go forward and make an impact, decent 2nd ruckman at stoppages.

Campbell is a decent long term replacement for Minson but having both playing now would bring us back to the Hudson/Minson conundrum, in that both are too similar in their skill set.

[westdog54]

Cameron Wood :D

I walked right into that one:D.

I know Rocco Jones has mentioned in the past but the 'Second Ruck' position is becoming something of a specialist position, in that they also need to be a capable forward as theat is where they will spend 60%-80% of their game time. Its a role Hale plays beautifully but that Cordy and Campbell struggle with. I think at this stage that Campbell is a good chance to grow into this role in the next couple of years but at the moment he's a better first ruck than second ruck, if that makes sense.

[G-Mo77]

Hale is everything that Cordy isn't. Can go forward and make an impact, decent 2nd ruckman at stoppages.

Hawthorn were really proactive with their pursuit of Hale. Change of rules and a ruck that can kick goals becomes very valuable. From memory he didn't cost them much.

[LongWait]

David Hale has kicked 12 goals in 15 games this season. He didn't kick a goal on Saturday.

Hale averages 10 disposals per game and less than a goal a game over the course of his career. The biggest knocks on Hale, I think, are the total absence of a defensive game and his hitouts to advantage are poor (he only averages 10 hitouts per game.)

Hale is far from a high quality player in my view.

[azabob]

David Hale has kicked 12 goals in 15 games this season. He didn't kick a goal on Saturday.

Hale averages 10 disposals per game and less than a goal a game over the course of his career. The biggest knocks on Hale, I think, are the total absence of a defensive game and his hitouts to advantage are poor (he only averages 10 hitouts per game.)

Hale is far from a high quality player in my view.

Intersting LW.

There is another thread on Minson and his huge workload.
What are your thoughts on either resting Minson or playing both Campbell and Minson in the same side. Or would you play Cordy purely as a ruckman?

[LongWait]

Intersting LW.

There is another thread on Minson and his huge workload.
What are your thoughts on either resting Minson or playing both Campbell and Minson in the same side. Or would you play Cordy purely as a ruckman?

I think we persevered with playing both Campbell and Minson together for a number of games without the result we wanted. Until (or unless) Campbell improves his mobility and forward work, I don't think that the Minson/Campbell combo is the answer.

Cordy is not the answer while he insists on playing one armed footy. I don't know if it is a physical or a psychological issue for him, but he cannot go up for marks one-handed and cannot shy away from contact against the big bodies while in the ruck. At the present, Cordy is not the answer.

Prior to his injury, Williams was the answer, and maybe he will be next season - but can we rely on him?

Someone posted that the relief ruck/forward role is now a specialist position. I agree, unless you have someone like Kurt Tippett, who takes all of the forward line ruck work.

Roughead has the necessary attributes if he can improve his effectiveness as a forward, but it appears that is not the plan for him.

So we tough it out this year with Jones, Cordy, Roughead helping Will from time to time and look to recruit one or more candidates in the off season to play the role next season.

I doubt this would appeal to Minson, but trading Minson and pick 4/5 to GWS for Boyd and elevating Campbell to the number 1 ruck is the bold solution that has some appeal.

[Maddog37]

Hi guys. I am overseas and was wondering how Macrae wnt on the weekend?

[bornadog]

Hi guys. I am overseas and was wondering how Macrae wnt on the weekend?

Played well and picked up a lot of disposals. Still needs to learn how to deliver the ball better into the forward line. A couple of times he missed targets, but i thought he was ok.

[Sedat]

Someone posted that the relief ruck/forward role is now a specialist position. I agree, unless you have someone like Kurt Tippett, who takes all of the forward line ruck work.
I know it's going over old ground, but I was very surprised that Ed Barlow was not at least retained as a rookie for another season after 2011. As the modern game dictates, he could have been the ideal 2nd ruck/chop out player to support Minson, and we would not have lost any running power at all in the process. Would also have fitted the BMac 'solid citizen' policy.

There were some games in 2011 when our defenders would look to rebound out of defensive 50, and there was literally nobody else leading hard further up the ground to provide an option apart from Barlow. Of course he'd invariably fumble the mark but at least it would spill out of bound and force a 50/50 out of danger.

[LongWait]

I know it's going over old ground, but I was very surprised that Ed Barlow was not at least retained as a rookie for another season after 2011. As the modern game dictates, he could have been the ideal 2nd ruck/chop out player to support Minson, and we would not have lost any running power at all in the process. Would also have fitted the BMac 'solid citizen' policy.

There were some games in 2011 when our defenders would look to rebound out of defensive 50, and there was literally nobody else leading hard further up the ground to provide an option apart from Barlow. Of course he'd invariably fumble the mark but at least it would spill out of bound and force a 50/50 out of danger.

I agree with you on Barlow - but we might have been the only ones to have much love for Ed.

[Mantis]

I agree with you on Barlow - but we might have been the only ones to have much love for Ed.

Can I join in?

[LongWait]

Can I join in?

Yep - you can join in but it's all a bit late unfortunately for Ed.

[Hotdog60]

Maybe the same could have been said about Skinner. Before anyone jumps down my throat if and a big if. If he could have got half a reasonable tank he could have filled the forward ruck duties. At least it would of been interesting to see if he was up for it.

[LostDoggy]

David Hale has kicked 12 goals in 15 games this season. He didn't kick a goal on Saturday.

Hale averages 10 disposals per game and less than a goal a game over the course of his career. The biggest knocks on Hale, I think, are the total absence of a defensive game and his hitouts to advantage are poor (he only averages 10 hitouts per game.)

Hale is far from a high quality player in my view.

The stats for Saturday's game say different, and that Hale was very effective. He had 13 contested possessions (average per week is almost 8). For any player, this is really effective work. Only Libba had more (15), and it was as many as Griffen and Cooney (13). On the other hand, Minson had only 4 contested possessions (average 8). Hodge had 7 (av 8.8) and Lewis 10 (av 9.1).

Hale took 4 contested marks (average per game is 1.4) while Minson could not manage 1 (av is .7). I would love more of our talls to take as many contested marks! No-one else took more than 2. Bailey took 1, so their rucks took 5/8 of their contested marks.

Hale kicked 2 behinds but they could easily have been 2 goals. He took 2 marks inside 50; Minson took none and kicked nothing. Also Hale was involved in 2 goal assists whereas Will was involved in 0.

Hale had 4 clearances (av 2.3); Minson had none (av 1.6). 2 of Hale's clearances were centre clearances.

Hale had 5 inside 50's to Will's 0 (av 1.6).

When you look at Bailey's stats his main contribution was in pure ruck work, winning 20 hit outs (av 22.6). Hale won 17 hit outs. Minson won 32 (average 40.5)

Hale was on the ground 92% of the time, the same time as Will. Bailey had 78% of time on ground. Hale spends more time as a forward.

Hale had 10 kicks and 8 handballs; Minson 2 kicks and 9 handballs; Bailey 1 kick and 5 handballs.

It seems to me that Hale does plenty. He is able to do this because Bailey shares the rucking duties. Minson's stats were down on most of his averages, which suggests he was struggling to keep up with 2 ruck men changing and / or that he was, indeed, 'stuffed'.

[LongWait]

The stats for Saturday's game say different, and that Hale was very effective. He had 13 contested possessions (average per week is almost 8). For any player, this is really effective work. Only Libba had more (15), and it was as many as Griffen and Cooney (13). On the other hand, Minson had only 4 contested possessions (average 8). Hodge had 7 (av 8.8) and Lewis 10 (av 9.1).

Hale took 4 contested marks (average per game is 1.4) while Minson could not manage 1 (av is .7). I would love more of our talls to take as many contested marks! No-one else took more than 2. Bailey took 1, so their rucks took 5/8 of their contested marks.

Hale kicked 2 behinds but they could easily have been 2 goals. He took 2 marks inside 50; Minson took none and kicked nothing. Also Hale was involved in 2 goal assists whereas Will was involved in 0.

Hale had 4 clearances (av 2.3); Minson had none (av 1.6). 2 of Hale's clearances were centre clearances.

Hale had 5 inside 50's to Will's 0 (av 1.6).

When you look at Bailey's stats his main contribution was in pure ruck work, winning 20 hit outs (av 22.6). Hale won 17 hit outs. Minson won 32 (average 40.5)

Hale was on the ground 92% of the time, the same time as Will. Bailey had 78% of time on ground. Hale spends more time as a forward.

Hale had 10 kicks and 8 handballs; Minson 2 kicks and 9 handballs; Bailey 1 kick and 5 handballs.

It seems to me that Hale does plenty. He is able to do this because Bailey shares the rucking duties. Minson's stats were down on most of his averages, which suggests he was struggling to keep up with 2 ruck men changing and / or that he was, indeed, 'stuffed'.

Minson is cooked at present and has no meaningful backup at all.

Hale was moderately effective on Saturday - certainly more effective than was Will, but he still didn't impact the scoreboard and over the course of his career has been an average performer. Hale, rightfully, is not in contention for All Australian honours this season, whereas Will, rightfully, is.

[EasternWest]

I agree with you on Barlow - but we might have been the only ones to have much love for Ed.


Can I join in?


Yep - you can join in but it's all a bit late unfortunately for Ed.

Me four. I had plenty of time for Ed, and Sedat summed up his value well. He wasn't a great player, but he covered plenty of ground and competed.

[LostDoggy]

I recall it being like a dark secret to appreciate Barlow. Surprised there were so many of us. His versatility was an asset and would have been useful over the last couple of seasons with a young group and lack of hardened bodies.

Regards,

Ed Barlow Fanclub Membership no: 5

[Ghost Dog]

Was always a fan, and always fun to watch a New South Welshman who's not always sure of what he's doing throw himself into the fray. I think BMAC would have liked him.
A cross between Simon Beasly and Dylan Addison.
Watched training today and you could ctrl+copy paste Cheesy into Markovic's boots and hardly notice the loss.

EB Fan no 6.

[Maddog37]

Count me in.

[Hotdog60]

I don't think I ever bagged him and I also think I didn't praise him. He did do so good things now and then. If you have the ability to run all day and get to a contest then would that not be a asset in todays game.
I'll still sit on the fence, can I be member7.5.

[LostDoggy]

Maybe the same could have been said about Skinner. Before anyone jumps down my throat if and a big if. If he could have got half a reasonable tank he could have filled the forward ruck duties. At least it would of been interesting to see if he was up for it.

JUMP! ;)

Is this in relataion the a similar scenario to Barlow? Skinner retired didn't he?

[Hotdog60]

JUMP! ;)

Is this in relataion the a similar scenario to Barlow? Skinner retired didn't he?

Yes I guess the same as Ed, the only thing is Ed has more things going for him than Skinner. I suppose my train of thought was that if Skinner could have cut the mustard he would be your ideal second ruck. The draw of home was too great for Skinner so he left.

[LostDoggy]

The stats for Saturday's game say different, and that Hale was very effective. He had 13 contested possessions (average per week is almost 8). For any player, this is really effective work. Only Libba had more (15), and it was as many as Griffen and Cooney (13). On the other hand, Minson had only 4 contested possessions (average 8). Hodge had 7 (av 8.8) and Lewis 10 (av 9.1).

Hale took 4 contested marks (average per game is 1.4) while Minson could not manage 1 (av is .7). I would love more of our talls to take as many contested marks! No-one else took more than 2. Bailey took 1, so their rucks took 5/8 of their contested marks.

Hale kicked 2 behinds but they could easily have been 2 goals. He took 2 marks inside 50; Minson took none and kicked nothing. Also Hale was involved in 2 goal assists whereas Will was involved in 0.

Hale had 4 clearances (av 2.3); Minson had none (av 1.6). 2 of Hale's clearances were centre clearances.

Hale had 5 inside 50's to Will's 0 (av 1.6).

When you look at Bailey's stats his main contribution was in pure ruck work, winning 20 hit outs (av 22.6). Hale won 17 hit outs. Minson won 32 (average 40.5)

Hale was on the ground 92% of the time, the same time as Will. Bailey had 78% of time on ground. Hale spends more time as a forward.

Hale had 10 kicks and 8 handballs; Minson 2 kicks and 9 handballs; Bailey 1 kick and 5 handballs.

It seems to me that Hale does plenty. He is able to do this because Bailey shares the rucking duties. Minson's stats were down on most of his averages, which suggests he was struggling to keep up with 2 ruck men changing and / or that he was, indeed, 'stuffed'.

The bolded sentence is conveniently forgotten in your comparison with Will. You might as well have lined up Hale's stats against Talia's. For the most part Will contested against Bailey and then against Hale when Bailey had a rest, a luxury not available to Will.

[LostDoggy]

The bolded sentence is conveniently forgotten in your comparison with Will. You might as well have lined up Hale's stats against Talia's. For the most part Will contested against Bailey and then against Hale when Bailey had a rest, a luxury not available to Will.

The point of my post was to show that Hale had a good game as evidenced by the stats, and that Minson was down on his averages, in part due to having to compete against 2 ruck men.

1. Hale had 13 contested possessions. 13. No mean effort when you consider that only Libba, of all the players on the ground, had more. Minson only had 4. Does that mean that, because Hale spent more time as a forward, that he should have had 9 more contested possessions? I mean, Hodge only had 7.

2. Hale had 4 contested marks while Will had none. No-one else had 4. Was it because he spent more time forward that he took more than double anyone else on the ground? We have permanent forwards who can't do even half that.

The point is, that he took the marks and he took the possessions. Will did not. But Will is capable of doing it. It's been a long year for him and it is starting to show.

[LongWait]

The point of my post was to show that Hale had a good game as evidenced by the stats, and that Minson was down on his averages, in part due to having to compete against 2 ruck men.

1. Hale had 13 contested possessions. 13. No mean effort when you consider that only Libba, of all the players on the ground, had more. Minson only had 4. Does that mean that, because Hale spent more time as a forward, that he should have had 9 more contested possessions? I mean, Hodge only had 7.

2. Hale had 4 contested marks while Will had none. No-one else had 4. Was it because he spent more time forward that he took more than double anyone else on the ground? We have permanent forwards who can't do even half that.

The point is, that he took the marks and he took the possessions. Will did not. But Will is capable of doing it. It's been a long year for him and it is starting to show.

Hale played primarily as a forward and didn't kick a goal. His stats flattered him.