2013 List Management

[soupman]

It's fast approaching that time of year where decisions have to be made over our list and who gets to stay for 2014 and beyond.

How many spots should we be looking to open up on the list?

Do any of the failed high draft picks get retained (Howard, Veszpremi)?

Do we keep the depth players (Markovic, Austin, Lower)?

Do players like Pearce and Roberts have to show something before the season is out to earn another contract?

Do we promote any of our rookies, and of the 2nd year ones (Jong, Redpath, Greenwood) which if any of them gets the 3rd year?

Is this it for Gia and Cross, or is there another season for one of them?

And what happens with the regularly injured trio of Wood, Williams and Higgins?

[soupman]

I think we will see the following:

Gia will retire. He's playing really well but I think whoever we recruit this off-season (ie. Crameri) takes his spot in the forwardline. Also it would be nice to have Gia retire at the end of the one season ever where all Bulldogs supporters finally seem to appreciate him.

Cross will go to another AFL club, or ideally become the captain of our reserves.

Veszpremi will be de-listed. I thought he was incredibly lucky to stay on the list last year and has never looked AFL quality in his three seasons at the club.

Howard will be de-listed. I actually think he has talent but his deficiencies are probably too much to overcome, especially when you consider his weaknesses are the very things the McCartney gameplan seems to revolve around.

They are the only certainties in my mind which would give us 5 draft picks at this stage. The extra draft pick is due to rookie listing Goodes last year instead of putting him on our main list.

Higgins I would like to see moved on. I can't see Higgins playing in the style of game we played against Sydney and thriving. Like Howard those aren't his strong points and I think we could try and extract some value for him (I'm thinking pick upgrades).

Markovic I think will be retained. I think Austin will go and Markovic will stay on the list as the serviceable key defender who can pinch hit up forward if we are desperate. McCartney seems to like him and he was given a few opportunities this year. I'm tipping he stays.

Of the rookies surely Greenwood and Austin are done. Jong and Redpath would fight it out for the 3rd year spot which I imagine Jong would be winning after having shown more in the non-injured time he's had. Goodes will probably be promoted but I'd be happy with a Freo style arrangement where he remains a rookie for another year but will be promoted ASAP. There's always somebody on the LTIL.

[LostDoggy]

Agree that I'd like to see Gia go out with as much respect as possible and the end if thus season would vw perfect for all parties.

Would like to see Cross be a one club player, but if his heart is in another season elsewhere then that's up to him. Be a shame if he went out a season too long as a few have done at GWS.

Vez hasn't shown anything to warrant another season on the list.

Markovic could be replaced by a dime a dozen delistment from another club or from a state league, such are his limitations at this level.

Tom Williams and Shaun Higgins should be persevered with for one more season, unless a fantastic offer ir upgrade if pick comes on. Both have attributes that we need, especially if Cooney goes and Markovic is delisted.

Howard try get a very late pick for from a SA team or delist. I'd give either him or Pearce one more season depending on if one is moved on. A decent pick for either and they're both gone.

Rookies:
Greenwood offers little we don't have and hasn't shown anything. Austin (see Markovic) should be delisted. I'd be happy to offer both Jong and Redpath a third season on the R/list.

[Hotdog60]

How many players do we have to let go by the AFL rules?

[DOG GOD]

How many players do we have to let go by the AFL rules?

I think it's 5 but someone might know for sure.

[soupman]

I believe we need to make 3 draft picks including promoted rookies. So we need to move on enough players to facilitate that. We can use those 3 draft picks in players we've delisted if we wish.

[anfo27]

How many players do we have to let go by the AFL rules?

3 i believe.

[DOG GOD]

Gia and cross to retire for mine...(Boyd and murph will go together as well later)
Austin and Vezpremi to be delisted
Howard to be traded
Williams, wood and Higgins to remain to keep that age bracket together
Pearce to stay
Greenwood to go.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Gia and cross to retire for mine...(Boyd and murph will go together as well later)
Austin and Vezpremi to be delisted
Howard to be traded
Williams, wood and Higgins to remain to keep that age bracket together
Pearce to stay
Greenwood to go.

I would delist Williams, Markovic and Higgins in addition to the players you have named. Our list needs to continue to be refreshed. We turned over 7-8 players last year and need to do likewise at the end of this year. We picked up some good new talent this year to make us more competitive, but there is still a great deal of improvement required.

[bornadog]

Macca said today Gia was not certain to retire and may play on next year.

[F'scary]

Williams & Higgins are a real issue that has to be dealt with. They are always injured.

I think there is no room for Vesz.

Austin & Marko to be retained.

Gia & Cross to retire.

So, off the list: Higgins, Williams, Vesz, Gia & Cross.

[bornadog]

Is this thread peoples wish list or is it meant to be a stab at reality.

[Remi Moses]

Williams & Higgins are a real issue that has to be dealt with. They are always injured.

I think there is no room for Vesz.

Austin & Marko to be retained.

Gia & Cross to retire.

So, off the list: Higgins, Williams, Vesz, Gia & Cross.

I'm sure Williams and Higgins are contracted.
Off for me Vez Gia Cross Markovic so far

[LostDoggy]

Is this thread peoples wish list or is it meant to be a stab at reality.

Delisting Higgins and Williams - comical.

[soupman]

Is this thread peoples wish list or is it meant to be a stab at reality.
Whichever. As long as your wish list isn't too far removed from reality.


Austin & Marko to be retained.


Can I ask why both?

I think there is an argument for keeping one, but surely both just means we have a back up for our back up.

[bornadog]

Whichever. As long as your wish list isn't too far removed from reality.

Ok, here is my shot at what I think may happen:

Retire: Gia and Cross

Delisted: Vez, Marko, Austin (although one may be kept as a backup.)

50/50 to go: Cooney

Roberts, Pearce still to turn 20 years old and should be given another year.

There could also be some trade bait offered up but not sure who and I don't want to speculate.

[LostDoggy]

Addison is a UFAgent. Anyone think he's going to slip through the cracks and end up somewhere? For a player of his level (squad/best 18 or so) to still be uncontracted at this stage of the season indicates to me he might be on the move.

[bornadog]

Addison is a UFAgent. Anyone think he's goign to slip through the cracks and end up somewhere? For a player of his level to still be uncontracted at this stage of the season indicates to me he might be on the move.

GWS anyone? He is from NSW.

[Mofra]

Apparently last night it was reported Mick Malthouse will shop around 10-12 players. Interesting if a rebounding defender is available and if we'd look at someone, although nobody could have predicted that Goodes & Young would slot in so well (a few of us predicted JJ's breakout).

[The Underdog]

Ok, here is my shot at what I think may happen:

Retire: Gia and Cross

Delisted: Vez, Marko, Austin (although one may be kept as a backup.)

50/50 to go: Cooney

Roberts, Pearce still to turn 20 years old and should be given another year.

There could also be some trade bait offered up but not sure who and I don't want to speculate.

I'm similar, although I think Howard will be delisted or traded. I think if one of Austin or Marko is kept it will be Austin, although it will depend how we feel about key defender depth and who we bring in. Wouldn't be surprised if we let Addison go, figuring he won't be in our best 22 going forward. Think Cooney's probably 60-40 right now.

[always right]

I would delist Williams, Markovic and Higgins in addition to the players you have named. Our list needs to continue to be refreshed. We turned over 7-8 players last year and need to do likewise at the end of this year. We picked up some good new talent this year to make us more competitive, but there is still a great deal of improvement required.

Why would you delist Higgins? Surely there are clubs out there who would happily trade for him. What pick they offer is another matter but many clubs would be thinking that Higgins has unfulfilled potential.

[bornadog]

I'm similar, although I think Howard will be delisted or traded. I think if one of Austin or Marko is kept it will be Austin, although it will depend how we feel about key defender depth and who we bring in. Wouldn't be surprised if we let Addison go, figuring he won't be in our best 22 going forward. Think Cooney's probably 60-40 right now.

You may be right about Howard, completely forgot about him.

[The Underdog]

Why would you delist Higgins? Surely there are clubs out there who would happily trade for him. What pick they offer is another matter but many clubs would be thinking that Higgins has unfulfilled potential.

I think Williams and Higgins are rated too highly internally to just be given away. I also don't think we'd get value in a trade. I'm a Williams fan and would like to see him get another shot. I think the flexibility he can provide is too rare to give up on. If he goes down again then he probably has to make a call on himself. Higgins I worry about, i think the injuries have killed any pace he may have had. However I can't see him being kicked to the kerb and I can't see any other club giving up anything for him.

[Cyberdoggie]

I think Williams and Higgins are rated too highly internally to just be given away. I also don't think we'd get value in a trade. I'm a Williams fan and would like to see him get another shot. I think the flexibility he can provide is too rare to give up on. If he goes down again then he probably has to make a call on himself. Higgins I worry about, i think the injuries have killed any pace he may have had. However I can't see him being kicked to the kerb and I can't see any other club giving up anything for him.

Lack of pace is disappointing but you can be a decent footballer and still be slow.
It's his lack of defensive pressure and ability to gut run that would be a worry for BMac.

If Gia decides to stay that might be a concern for Higgins. But if he retires then i'd say Higgins will probably just assume Gia's spot.
I don't think you can play both Gia and Higgins in the same side anymore. We've tried that it effects the balance of the side.

[The Underdog]

Lack of pace is disappointing but you can be a decent footballer and still be slow.
It's his lack of defensive pressure and ability to gut run that would be a worry for BMac.

If Gia decides to stay that might be a concern for Higgins. But if he retires then i'd say Higgins will probably just assume Gia's spot.
I don't think you can play both Gia and Higgins in the same side anymore. We've tried that it effects the balance of the side.

Agree entirely, definitely can't have them both in the forward line.

[F'scary]

Delisting Higgins and Williams - comical.

You are right! Got to love their pre-seasons.

[F'scary]

Whichever. As long as your wish list isn't too far removed from reality.



Can I ask why both?

I think there is an argument for keeping one, but surely both just means we have a back up for our back up.

Reserves CHB & reserves FB?

[Scorlibo]

Gia is playing well enough to play on but I think it could be a quick decline once he does go downhill. Maybe he could do a Mitch Hahn and take on a rookie coaching spot?

Crossy deserves the chance to play another 2-3 years of AFL, if the Coaching staff decide that he's not a part of our future midfield then so be it but I hope he plays on, wherever that may be.

Vesz is unlucky not to be given more than one game this year, especially seeing as he's dominated the VFL and it's been possibly his best year in memory, but someone has to go I suppose.

Howard and Pearce will have to go, as well as one of Austin and Markovic.

Higgins is a leader of the club and will stay. His future is still bright, he just needs some luck and some faith.

[LostDoggy]

Lack of pace is disappointing but you can be a decent footballer and still be slow.
It's his lack of defensive pressure and ability to gut run that would be a worry for BMac.

If Gia decides to stay that might be a concern for Higgins. But if he retires then i'd say Higgins will probably just assume Gia's spot.
I don't think you can play both Gia and Higgins in the same side anymore. We've tried that it effects the balance of the side.

Every time Higgins has a big pre-season it gets said that he will probably playing midfield, simply put he's one of the better footballers at the club when fit. He was in fine form before his foot injury got worse.

[azabob]

Howard and Pearce will have to go, as well as one of Austin and Markovic.

Higgins is a leader of the club and will stay. His future is still bright, he just needs some luck and some faith.

What about Addison.

I feel we need to keep trying to develop Pearce as a small defender. Besides JJ I think we are light on.

[always right]

Every time Higgins has a big pre-season it gets said that he will probably playing midfield, simply put he's one of the better footballers at the club when fit. He was in fine form before his foot injury got worse.

I'm sick of reading how Higgins "has had his best pre-season ever". When he has managed to get on the park his performances have been largely underwhelming. My faith has almost totally subsided.

[bornadog]

Vesz is unlucky not to be given more than one game this year, especially seeing as he's dominated the VFL and it's been possibly his best year in memory, but someone has to go I suppose.

Sorry can't agree Vez is the worse player on our list. Not good enough at AFL level.

[G-Mo77]

I want to take at least 4 - 5 picks in the draft so my predictions are based on that.

Main List

Delist - Retire
Markovic
Veszpremi
Howard
Cross
Gia*
Pearce*

A lot will depend on trade week and what we do with free agents. I'd like to keep Pearce and if it's possible would like to retain him on the Rookie list if he gets squeezed out. That of course is up to him. Gia is playing good enough to go on but I see Higgins coming back and playing a similar role. IMO his future will be decided on what we can do through trade or free agent. I'd tap on the shoulder if push comes to shove.

Trade Week

Dylan Addison
Adam Cooney

Addison would be a great fit for a contending side IMO. I'm happy to keep him on but I'd put the feelers out. I think Cooney will sign up again but if he still hasn't signed by trade week we shop him. I'm resisting the urge to put Williams on the table because we're young down back but if someone comes and asks I'm listening.

Rookie List

Delist
Redpath
Austin

Retain
Jong
Greenwood

Promote
Goodes*

Are we aloud to keep Rookies on the list for more than 2 years? If so I'd retain both Jong and Greenwood. In our own VFL side we could unearth a good player out of one of these two. I think Austin is done and I don't think Redpath is good enough either. I'm happy to keep Goodes there and use the missing main list spot as promotion like this season.

[jeemak]

Every time Higgins has a big pre-season it gets said that he will probably playing midfield, simply put he's one of the better footballers at the club when fit. He was in fine form before his foot injury got worse.

When fit, he is a very good footballer.

Commonly it will be said he doesn't chase and doesn't tackle, but for the latter the stats say otherwise.

He's creative with the ball and is one of, if not the best finisher on our list.

Higgins suffers from our expectation of what we thought his output should be, though due to injury and illness it's not likely he'll reach those expectations.

As supporters we need to accept just like every player in the league, bar one or two, he's going to be a player with some deficiencies mixed in with the things he does really well.

But I don't think a lot of supporters will get that, and Higgins with be the favourite whipping boy for them as long as he's on our list.

[soupman]

Are we allowed to keep Rookies on the list for more than 2 years? If so I'd retain both Jong and Greenwood. In our own VFL side we could unearth a good player out of one of these two. I think Austin is done and I don't think Redpath is good enough either. I'm happy to keep Goodes there and use the missing main list spot as promotion like this season.

Yes but only we can only have one third year rookie, and we cannot keep a rookie for longer than 3 years without promoting them.

Pearce is one I rated highly at the end of last year and seems to be being developed (or thrown around) in pretty much every position at Willy it seems. I would like to see him retained, and if he is borderline I would be happy to see him moved onto the rookie list.

[LostDoggy]

GMO, what do you see in Greenwood ? Haven't noticed anything that's made him a candidate to be retained over the past couple of years.

[Remi Moses]

When fit, he is a very good footballer.

Commonly it will be said he doesn't chase and doesn't tackle, but for the latter the stats say otherwise.

He's creative with the ball and is one of, if not the best finisher on our list.

Higgins suffers from our expectation of what we thought his output should be, though due to injury and illness it's not likely he'll reach those expectations.

As supporters we need to accept just like every player in the league, bar one or two, he's going to be a player with some deficiencies mixed in with the things he does really well.

But I don't think a lot of supporters will get that, and Higgins with be the favourite whipping boy for them as long as he's on our list.

I agree with this.

[G-Mo77]

GMO, what do you see in Greenwood ? Haven't noticed anything that's made him a candidate to be retained over the past couple of years.

I thought he showed a bit of promise last year from what I saw of him. He's been one of the players cruelled by Willy only having 11 players in the VFL Seniors, I think he's only managed 3 games. I don't think it's fair to just cut him without giving him a decent shot. soupaman summed up his fate though, if Jon is retained on the rookie list Greenwood will be gone.

[LostDoggy]

To gives this a good attempt at predicting:

Retirements:
Gia
Crossy

Delistings
Veszpremi
Markovic
Howard
Pearce
Greenwood
Jack Redpath

Re-Rookies
Lin jong

Upgrades
Brett Goodes
Mark Austin


So for the controversial ones, I think we'll delist two of Jong, Pearce and Howard.
I also think we'll delist two of Redpath, Markovic and Austin.

I've gone with keeping Jong because he has more upside, despite this I still think Howard and Pearce will make it if they don't get cut. Went for keeping Austin because he seems to be in favour atm, and is playing the best football in the vfl.

[Bulldog Joe]

I see no value in promoting Austin.

He may be a good VFL player and can be adequate at AFL level, but he will never be more than adequate.

He has been in the system a long time now and his upside is at best limited.

I see it as a much better strategy to open a space for someone new.

Realistically we would have a chance to draft a mature age like Mitch Thorp if we keep the spot available. Much more upside to a player like Thorp.

[LostDoggy]

When I managed people, I was always getting told 'you should get rid of so and so, he/she's no good'. After a pouring time and money into recruitment and retraining and often finding those replacements were worse or the same as who I had got rid of. I then started with the response, "Yeah, I can get rid of them, but who will I replace them with.

So unless we have someone in mind either in the draft, already on our list or as a trade or FA we need to be pretty careful in cutting.

So with that in mind I will give two goes:

What the club will do

Delist: Vez, Redpath, Greenwood, Pearce
Retire: Gia, Cross
Trade: ?

Rookies: Austin, Jong

What I would do

Delist: Vez, Redpath, Greenwood, Pearce, Howard, Tutt*
Retire: Gia, Cross
Trade:
Release to FA: Cooney*
One or two of**:
Williams to Brisbane for a pick upgrade
Wood to GWS/Melb/StK for a pick updgrade or third rounder
Higgins to Ess as part of Cramieri trade


Rookies: Austin, Jong

* Tutt/Coooney are only released if we can pick up a better/younger fast, good kicking player (eg Yarran)
** We can no longer afford to carry three seemingly perpetually injured players. One or two need to go. None of them are indispensable (Talia and Roughead have replaced Williams; Dickson can replace Higgins; and Goodes/JJ can replace Wood.

[bornadog]

Not sure why posters think Pearce should be delisted. Personally I would think getting rid if a 19 year old would be a strange decision.

[chef]

Retire.
Cross

Delist.
Vez
Howard
Markovic


Upgrade.
Goodes

Which would give us 4 picks in the ND

If we going after a KPF in Trade Week then someone is going to be traded, who I wouldn't have a clue.

Addison(I would keep him for another season), Lower(how many years did we give him?) and Gia(hope he gets another year) all in the danger zone if we want more picks. Plus there's always the option of keeping Goodes on the rookie list to free up another pick.

[chef]

Not sure why posters think Pearce should be delisted. Personally I would think getting rid if a 19 year old would be a strange decision.

Surprised he hasn't been given a shot yet(this year), for the MC to see what he can do.

[Bulldog4life]

Retire.
Cross & Gia

Delist Main List:

Veszpremi
Howard
Markovic

Delist Rookie List:
Redpath



Upgrade.
Goodes

This would give us 4 picks in the ND plus 1 pick in the Rookie draft.

I would keep both Pearce and Greenwood due to their young age and might even delist Austin to get 2 picks in the Rookie draft.

[Go_Dogs]

Not sure why posters think Pearce should be delisted. Personally I would think getting rid if a 19 year old would be a strange decision.

Agreed.

Potentially he could be a candidate to move onto the rookie list if we think we can add better options to the senior list through the draft, but there's no way I see him being moved on at years end.

It's a very tough year because I think we need to take 5 selections in the ND but I'm struggling to come up with 5 names of who we'd move on.

Cross and Gia are both potential retirees.
Vez seems likely to be gone.
Markovic another who may be in the gun.
Howard might be on the out, but after investing so much time into him already I wonder if we persist with him for another year?
Goodes should command an upgrade but I think we must keep him on the rookie list for list management reasons.
Tutt and Grant are now big parts of our future after I would have thought them both in the gun 2/3 months ago.

Don't think we'll look at moving any of Higgins, Williams or Wood - certainly questions on their durability but I'm not convinced they shouldn't be in our plans moving forwards.

Addison definitely stays for mine.

Cooney a potential trade if he decides to chase more money or a flag elsewhere.

It's a massively important off-season for us and I'm unsure how we best approach it.

[LongWait]

Retire.
Cross

Delist.
Vez
Howard
Markovic


Upgrade.
Goodes

Which would give us 3 picks in the ND

If we going after a KPF in Trade Week then someone is going to be traded, who I wouldn't have a clue.

Addison(I would keep him for another season), Lower(how many years did we give him?) and Gia(hope he gets another year) all in the danger zone if we want more picks. Plus there's always the option of keeping Goodes on the rookie list to free up another pick.

Wouldn't it give us 4 picks in the ND - we are one light on our list this year - there is already a vacant spot for Goodes.

[Greystache]

Not sure why posters think Pearce should be delisted. Personally I would think getting rid if a 19 year old would be a strange decision.

Agree, I can't understand it either. He's been at the club only 2 years, has played some senior football and was physically undeveloped when we drafted him. At this point in his career he's shown more than Vez, Howard, Tutt, and JJ did.

His upside perhaps won't be what someone like JJ's is but I don't see why we wouldn't give him more opportunities.

[GVGjr]

We really need to make some tough decisions.
Without knowing a lot of the contract situations I'd go with something like this.

Retire:
Cross and Giansiracusa

Delist:
Veszpremi, Markovic, Howard, Greenwood, Redpath and Austin

Retain Rookies:
Jong (But I could be talked out of it) I'd look to list Markovic as a rookie or maybe Redpath for another 12 months.

On the edge: (Trades or Free Agents)
Higgins, Cooney, Wood and Tutt

I'd like to keep all three of these guys but if someone knocked on the door for them I'd certainly discuss.

Summary:
I'm somewhat comfortable letting Austin and Markovic go given we have a solid core of tall defenders (Roughead, Talia, Young, Morris, Williams and Roberts) but I'd like to look around from someone with a bit of experience as a key defender.
Veszpremi hasn't grasped his chances, likewise Howard. I still think Howard has a bit to offer but he would be lucky to be maintained. I think Macrae will take a spot on the HBF next year which squeezes Howard out.

Higgins is a very good player but it's hard to see where he fits in now. We wouldn't get a lot for him but we might be able to upgrade a pick or get a needs based player.
Tutt might have some appeal for GWS who we might be able to trade with.

[G-Mo77]

Not sure why posters think Pearce should be delisted. Personally I would think getting rid if a 19 year old would be a strange decision.

When I did my Ins and Outs I had him safe assuming we didn't take anyone in through free agency or trade. If we do bring in a couple of senior listed players then he may have to make way for them. I'd like to rookie him if this happens.

[Greystache]

Retire

Gia, Cross

Delist

Vez, Howard, Markovic, Williams, Redpath (R)

Potential Trade

Cooney, Higgins

Promote- Goodes

Re-Rookie- Jong, Greenwood, Austin (If they genuinely think he's a better option than Markovic)

That will leave us with potentially 5 live picks and 2 rookie selections.

[chef]

Wouldn't it give us 4 picks in the ND - we are one light on our list this year - there is already a vacant spot for Goodes.

Didn't know that, thanks.

[LostDoggy]

Not sure why posters think Pearce should be delisted. Personally I would think getting rid if a 19 year old would be a strange decision.

I concur.

Unlike many others, I would retain Marko as a rookie and delist Austin as Marko can fill more key roles in emergency injury situations. KPF, KPB and 2nd ruck. As a bigger guy he may yet have some development in him. Flexible depth player. I will be interested in Austin today, maybe we might leave him in the Carlton change rooms for them to take back.

[boydogs]

What, if anything, do people think we could get for the following players in a trade?

Cooney
Higgins
Williams
Grant
Jones
Cordy
Howard
Tutt

[FrediKanoute]

I concur.

Unlike many others, I would retain Marko as a rookie and delist Austin as Marko can fill more key roles in emergency injury situations. KPF, KPB and 2nd ruck. As a bigger guy he may yet have some development in him. Flexible depth player. I will be interested in Austin today, maybe we might leave him in the Carlton change rooms for them to take back.

No he can't. Sorry on paper he can fill multiple roles, but he has shown this year that he is simply not up to AFL standard. His best is as a backman, but even then it is back up only. Personally on what he has shown this year he is a bust.

[FrediKanoute]

What, if anything, do people think we could get for the following players in a trade?

Cooney - has some value, but I think what we get will always be less that what we value him because of his injury
Higgins - not much, maybe a 3rd rounder
Williams - see Higgins
Grant - stocks will have risen. I think we could get a 2nd rounder, but why would we want to?
Jones - See Williams, heaps of potential, but hasn't delivered
Cordy - late pick
Howard - packet of Twisties
Tutt - see Grant, but probably a 3rd rounder.



My take

[Mofra]

Not sure why posters think Pearce should be delisted. Personally I would think getting rid if a 19 year old would be a strange decision.
Ditto.
Staggered that Tutt was listed too - has the attributes we need, still early in his development.
Austin was good today too.

[DOG GOD]

Gia and cross to retire
Markovic and Howard delisted
Redpath and greenwood delisted
Pearce to rookie list
Goodes rookie list

That leaves 5 spots on main list

Williams, Higgins, wood and cooney to stay.
Rookie list to be...Jong, goodes, Austin and Pearce.

[LostDoggy]

Austin and Tutt were both really good today. Austin actually showed Roughead the way after Roughy just struggled a bit early, and then Roughead had a very good second half.

[Doc26]

Austin and Tutt were both really good today. Austin actually showed Roughead the way after Roughy just struggled a bit early, and then Roughead had a very good second half.

Roughead was on Henderson, Austin on Sam Rowe. Put Roughy on Rowe and then see who would be showing who the way. Sam Rowe, like Austin with us, is on the fringe at Carlton, whilst Henderson would be in their top 3 most valued commodities.

[LostDoggy]

Roughead was on Henderson, Austin on Sam Rowe. Put Roughy on Rowe and then see who would be showing who the way. Sam Rowe, like Austin with us, is on the fringe at Carlton, whilst Henderson would be in their top 3 most valued commodities.

Fair point, but I thought Roughead was a bit man conscious early, while Austin was focused on the footy, when Roughy followed suit was focusing more on the footy in the second half he played a lot better. That's how I read it at the game anyway. I don't think he's as good as Roughead or Talia but handy kpps for depth aren't a bad thing.

[Greystache]

Roughead was on Henderson, Austin on Sam Rowe. Put Roughy on Rowe and then see who would be showing who the way. Sam Rowe, like Austin with us, is on the fringe at Carlton, whilst Henderson would be in their top 3 most valued commodities.

Good assessment Doc. Despite being much derided early by Carlton supporters for not being an instant Fevola replacement, he has developed into a good player who is top 3 in contested marks in the AFL, I was happy with Roughead's game

[Mofra]

Good assessment Doc. Despite being much derided early by Carlton supporters for not being an instant Fevola replacement, he has developed into a good player who is top 3 in contested marks in the AFL, I was happy with Roughead's game
Henderson would be close to their B&F this year. I was very happy with Roughy's game.

[Go_Dogs]

Good assessment Doc. Despite being much derided early by Carlton supporters for not being an instant Fevola replacement, he has developed into a good player who is top 3 in contested marks in the AFL, I was happy with Roughead's game

I was too, but I thought he still made a few errors and was beaten a few times. I had to watch on the ipad today in Adelaide so perhaps I didn't see the full picture but I wouldn't have had Roughie in our bests today, although he put forward a solid game. I think he's proven himself a capable defender over the course of the season though and I'm thrilled with his continued progress.

[Scorlibo]

I was too, but I thought he still made a few errors and was beaten a few times. I had to watch on the ipad today in Adelaide so perhaps I didn't see the full picture but I wouldn't have had Roughie in our bests today, although he put forward a solid game. I think he's proven himself a capable defender over the course of the season though and I'm thrilled with his continued progress.

Agree. The high ball which Henderson marked in the second quarter Roughy was just too slow getting underneath of. Also earlier in the 2v2 with Murph he left his man in order to try and force the ball to the boundary but just had no impact on the contest and it was an easy goal. Two pretty critical errors for mine but he's still young and I was very pleased with his second half today. Still think that long term he would be best placed as the part-time ruckman-KPF, but for now learning key defence is giving him some new weapons and perspectives.

I thought Austin was good today. Of he and Markovic, I definitely prefer the ball in his hands and feel less uneasy when he's in 1v1s. I can see him developing further to become a regular key defender. If Talia develops his kicking then he might be able to hold down this spot but right now I prefer Austin and I think he deserves a spot on the list.

[Pickenitup]

Thought Aussie Was great how good was that mark in front of Waite in the third quarter.
Would keep on the list as depth for sure

[bornadog]

Thought Aussie Was great how good was that mark in front of Waite in the third quarter.
Would keep on the list as depth for sure

I thought he played a very solid game and was rarely beaten.

[Go_Dogs]

Interesting comments on Austin and I agree. Hard to fault him today and he offers us a bit. I wonder if Roughead and Talia are the key defenders if Austin could be the long term Morris replacement? Young is fast becoming more of a well rounded defender with a strong offensive game but Austin could be that tall/medium shut down bloke. Seemed he played on a range of opponents yesterday too.

We've certainly got a vast array of options in the back 6 at the moment which is a great problem to have.

Wood was OK in his first game back too, and obviously there is JJ and Goodes to squeeze in next year, and potentially Macrae who GVGjr suggested.

List management decisions are getting harder by the day at the moment. Glad we've got a full time person in charge of this area now.

[Lowey33]

Interesting comments on Austin and I agree. Hard to fault him today and he offers us a bit. I wonder if Roughead and Talia are the key defenders if Austin could be the long term Morris replacement? Young is fast becoming more of a well rounded defender with a strong offensive game but Austin could be that tall/medium shut down bloke. Seemed he played on a range of opponents yesterday too.

We've certainly got a vast array of options in the back 6 at the moment which is a great problem to have.

Wood was OK in his first game back too, and obviously there is JJ and Goodes to squeeze in next year, and potentially Macrae who GVGjr suggested.

List management decisions are getting harder by the day at the moment. Glad we've got a full time person in charge of this area now.

You can't replace Morris! He's a freak! He can go tall and small, genuine pace, exceptional reader of the play, and great awareness. Maybe replacing him with two players is the go. Personally don't think Austin is the man. Think his getting game time to see what he has to offer, if anything, going forward, next year. Talia would be automatic, and young has earnt another season of footy. So I reckon poor Austin may miss out. Maybe as a back up he'll be offered a lifeline, but that's it.

[Bulldog4life]

You can't replace Morris! He's a freak! He can go tall and small, genuine pace, exceptional reader of the play, and great awareness. Maybe replacing him with two players is the go. Personally don't think Austin is the man. Think his getting game time to see what he has to offer, if anything, going forward, next year. Talia would be automatic, and young has earnt another season of footy. So I reckon poor Austin may miss out. Maybe as a back up he'll be offered a lifeline, but that's it.

Only one?

[LostDoggy]

:)

I reckon he's earnt himself a two year contract extension

[Greystache]

I would expect him to have another year on his contract. Traded players in general sign 2 year deals.

[comrade]

The thing I loved about Roughy is he kept busting his nut until the last second. There was an inconsequential contest on the wing late in the game - maybe 2 or 3 minutes left. A Carlton player kicked it to Henderson who had metres on Roughy but our boy just willed himself to make the contest and killed the ball out of bounds. The game was won, he could have been forgiven for just letting his opponent take the simple mark and slow the game down but he didn't want to give his man anything.

Macca would have loved it.

[Ozza]

I don't really fancy speculating on who will be delisted. But I will say I am definitely not on board with Higgins and Williams being delisted.

Yes - they get injured regularly - but if they ever get any continuity, we will benefit a great deal, and I'm not sure we'd get much in return.

Stick with them.

Suggestions of Tutt being delisted....no way is this in the coach's plans - and nor should they be.

[F'scary]

I don't really fancy speculating on who will be delisted. But I will say I am definitely not on board with Higgins and Williams being delisted.

Yes - they get injured regularly - but if they ever get any continuity, we will benefit a great deal, and I'm not sure we'd get much in return.

Stick with them.

Suggestions of Tutt being delisted....no way is this in the coach's plans - and nor should they be.

All three have good nick-names: Professor, Hank & the King. A good nick-name is a strong indicator that the player is a good player. Therefore, retain all three. The coach should concentrate on players who have not earned good nick-names when considering trades and delistings. Having said that, there are some players who should be given another season to see if they can earn a good nick-name before any decision is made about their future.

[Maddog37]

I seem to recall Macca saying nick name is one of the key components of his recruitment screening matrix.

[always right]

I seem to recall Macca saying nick name is one of the key components of his recruitment screening matrix.

In fact I believe he's given it a nick name...."recmat".

[w3design]

why is no one seeing Dickson's trade value?

[chef]

why is no one seeing Dickson's trade value?

Because he doesn't need to be traded.

[w3design]

Dickson + Wood + pick4 for Boyd or Aish. doable?

[KT31]

Dickson + Wood + pick4 for Boyd or Aish. doable?

Would consider this.

[chef]

Dickson + Wood + pick4 for Boyd or Aish. doable?

No..

[bornadog]

No..

Why not Chef?

[soupman]

Why not Chef?

I'd imagine because Dickson would have very little value. He is an average small forward atm, and Wood despite talent is perenially injured and doubted to be in our best 22 by many.

How would these two beat the other likely combinations from other clubs?

[LostDoggy]

I don't think GWS would want that trade, and at the same time it would be paying overs from our perspective.

[w3design]

other likely combination can only beat it involving pick2 or 3. at least we are offering mature bodies in prime age.

[1eyedog]

I'd imagine because Dickson would have very little value. He is an average small forward atm, and Wood despite talent is perenially injured and doubted to be in our best 22 by many.

How would these two beat the other likely combinations from other clubs?

I saw it as meaning that Wood and Pick 4 is too high a price. Wood could be anything. Same applies to Boyd, good and bad. Pick 4 is still pick 4.

[w3design]

Williams could be anything too. would like the idea Dickson + Williams + pick4 for Boyd or Aish?

[KT31]

Do you think they would fall for Higgins and Williams + pick4 for Boyd or Aish ?

[chef]

Why not Chef?

Cause GWS are going to want a gun in the 23-26 age group plus a pick for pick 1.

Plus I would rather hang onto pick 4(another stringer/McCrae), Wood and Dickson. 3 players for one is quite a gamble which we should leave alone while we are trying to rebuild our list.

[chef]

Do you think they would fall for Higgins and Williams + pick4 for Boyd or Aish ?

They will want a star if they are going to let go of pick 1, think more like Griffen which we won't(and rightly) do.

If we had pick one would you trade it for Williams, Higgins and pick 4?

[F'scary]

They will want a star if they are going to let go of pick 1, think more like Griffen which we won't(and rightly) do.

If we had pick one would you trade it for Williams, Higgins and pick 4?

Yes because I want players who have great pre-seasons.

[bornadog]

Cause GWS are going to want a gun in the 23-26 age group plus a pick for pick 1.

Plus I would rather hang onto pick 4(another stringer/McCrae), Wood and Dickson. 3 players for one is quite a gamble which we should leave alone while we are trying to rebuild our list.

I agree, just wanted your thoughts.

[F'scary]

We need more players like that Cambell - players that use their heads.

[Scorlibo]

What's so bad about pick 4? Why do we so desperately need pick 1? From what I've seen and heard there's not much difference between the top 4-5 players. Josh Kelly looks like a ripper.

[The Underdog]

What's so bad about pick 4? Why do we so desperately need pick 1? From what I've seen and heard there's not much difference between the top 4-5 players. Josh Kelly looks like a ripper.

The difference between 1 & 4 seems to Boyd being the solution to all of our problems. Of course by the time he's an effective AFL forward we might have a whole new set of problems.

[LostDoggy]

I like the idea of pick 4 plus something for Tom Boyd, I was thinking maybe Cooney.

[LostDoggy]

We need more players like that Cambell - players that use their heads.


I agree, just wanted your thoughts.

:D:D

[LostDoggy]

I like the idea of pick 4 plus something for Tom Boyd, I was thinking maybe Cooney.

What the??

[azabob]

The difference between 1 & 4 seems to Boyd being the solution to all of our problems. Of course by the time he's an effective AFL forward we might have a whole new set of problems.

I agree Underdog. I personally don't want to trade for Boyd.

People are saying Boyd is a once in a life time forward - Is he really?

On June 9th mjp on the thread titled "Operation get Tom Boyd" asked is he really that good (post 2)?

Im not sure if mjp has changed his mind or not.

I am interested in mjp and bulldogsman opinion on Boyd and is he worth trading the likes of a Cooney or a Minson for?

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=11958

[Ozza]

Tom Boyd may well be the second coming of Wayne Carey - and thats fine.
But there is also a chance that his dominance of the Under 18 level is exaggerated by him by him being 6 foot 6 and 100 kilo's.

I'm hoping the club is very very wary about going down the path of trading for the no.1 pick. In any case, I very much doubt we have what GWS is after.

[F'scary]

I agree Underdog. I personally don't want to trade for Boyd.

People are saying Boyd is a once in a life time forward - Is he really?

On June 9th mjp on the thread titled "Operation get Tom Boyd" asked is he really that good (post 2)?

Im not sure if mjp has changed his mind or not.

I am interested in mjp and bulldogsman opinion on Boyd and is he worth trading the likes of a Cooney or a Minson for?

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=11958

And they were all saying the same about Patton and he is yet to set the world on fire.

[Mofra]

And they were all saying the same about Patton and he is yet to set the world on fire.
And Jeremy Cameron "wasn't a top ten pick" and GWS only pulled the trigger early because they had so many picks.

There's always an element of chance when drafting - if we happened to pick up a good player for a downgrade of pick 4 I wouldn't be upset at all

Our trading strategy last year (where we gave up Lake and not much else, ended up with 4 decent pick ups) nailed it as far as I'm concerned

[Greystache]

And they were all saying the same about Patton and he is yet to set the world on fire.

I never heard Patton being described as that. He was rated as a big kid with potentially big upside.



And Jeremy Cameron "wasn't a top ten pick" and GWS only pulled the trigger early because they had so many picks.

Cameron wasn't drafted, he was one of the 17 year olds GWS had access to before they were draft age. Where he might have been selected has never really been on the radar.

[Mofra]

Cameron wasn't drafted, he was one of the 17 year olds GWS had access to before they were draft age. Where he might have been selected has never really been on the radar.
Ah true, I have him mixed up with someone else.

[westdog54]

Tom Boyd may well be the second coming of Wayne Carey - and thats fine.
But there is also a chance that his dominance of the Under 18 level is exaggerated by him by him being 6 foot 6 and 100 kilo's.

I'm hoping the club is very very wary about going down the path of trading for the no.1 pick. In any case, I very much doubt we have what GWS is after.

Carey didn't even cost a player or a draft pick. North bought him for $10,000.

[LostDoggy]

Anyone think John Butcher might be worth a go? Port are doing OK up forward and he's had a few injury issues holding him back. He might be a good fit under Macca as he seems to need some development time. No idea what they'd take for him - not sure either side would see our second rounder as a great deal?

[Remi Moses]

Anyone think John Butcher might be worth a go? Port are doing OK up forward and he's had a few injury issues holding him back. He might be a good fit under Macca as he seems to need some development time. No idea what they'd take for him - not sure either side would see our second rounder as a great deal?

Been a big fall from grace for Butcher!
He was all the rage 2 years ago, but I can't see them trading him as Schultz has probably two years left.
God awful kick also

[Ghost Dog]

If I were the club, I would be going for some big bodied midfielders you can move around the place. Butcher just isn't flexible enough position wise.

[soupman]

Well I feel like this has already changed.

I think the definite outs at this stage are Howard, Veszpremi, Markovic and Cross.

I think Austin will be retained as a third year rookie, meaning all the other rookies except Goodes will be cut.

I think we will want 4 draft picks though, and seeing as we are likely to bring in at least one player from another club (Crameri), someone else has to go.

I'd like to see Pearce retained, and he may be a candidate to move to the rookie list,

I'd like to move Higgins on as I don't see him fitting our game style but I doubt very much that the club would receive an offer worth anything for him and seeing as he is still rated internally I doubt we will facilitate a trade where we only receive a fourth round pick in return.

Otherwise I think one of Lower or Addison is likely to leave. Lower is solid depth but behind so many players in a inside/defensive midfielder role (Smith, Hrovat, Wallis, Boyd, Liberatore) and as a defender (Picken, Young, JJ, Goodes, Wood). As much as I like him he could very well be the player. Addison is another who provides good depth and competition for places but seeing as we would be hoping all the candidates for the 3rd tall type role next season will really step up (Stringer, Crameri and Jones) I wouldn't be surprised if we are yet to offer him a contract and he ends up exploring his options as a free agent. Both could go if we do promote Goodes or Austin though.

[Hotdog60]

Well I feel like this has already changed.

I think the definite outs at this stage are Howard, Veszpremi, Markovic and Cross.

I think Austin will be retained as a third year rookie, meaning all the other rookies except Goodes will be cut.

I think we will want 4 draft picks though, and seeing as we are likely to bring in at least one player from another club (Crameri), someone else has to go.

I'd like to see Pearce retained, and he may be a candidate to move to the rookie list,

I'd like to move Higgins on as I don't see him fitting our game style but I doubt very much that the club would receive an offer worth anything for him and seeing as he is still rated internally I doubt we will facilitate a trade where we only receive a fourth round pick in return.

Otherwise I think one of Lower or Addison is likely to leave. Lower is solid depth but behind so many players in a inside/defensive midfielder role (Smith, Hrovat, Wallis, Boyd, Liberatore) and as a defender (Picken, Young, JJ, Goodes, Wood). As much as I like him he could very well be the player. Addison is another who provides good depth and competition for places but seeing as we would be hoping all the candidates for the 3rd tall type role next season will really step up (Stringer, Crameri and Jones) I wouldn't be surprised if we are yet to offer him a contract and he ends up exploring his options as a free agent. Both could go if we do promote Goodes or Austin though.

I would have thought Lower would have a couple of years left on his contract. Would he have come to us on a 1 year deal.

[G-Mo77]

I would have thought Lower would have a couple of years left on his contract. Would he have come to us on a 1 year deal.

I'm almost positive he signed for 2 years, he'll be with us next year.

[soupman]

Then I think Addison might be moved on.

[KT31]

Then I think Addison might be moved on.

Agree and I also think Howard, Vez, Marko have played their last game for our seniors.
Would not be shocked if one of Williams / Higgins or both are move on.

[bornadog]

How many players are we required to delist/retire? Is it 4 or 5?

[Axe Man]

How many players are we required to delist/retire? Is it 4 or 5?

I believe there has to be 3 primary list changes which can include rookie upgrades.

[Scorlibo]

People seem to forget that there are just two non-first-year players who haven't played a senior game this year. Not Veszpremi, Howard or Markovic but Pearce and Roberts. Neither have shown anything more than solid form at Willi and haven't really looked like playing Seniors.

Delist: Cross, Markovic, Roberts, Pearce, Howard, Veszpremi.

Upgrade: Austin, Goodes.

[bornadog]

People seem to forget that there are just two non-first-year players who haven't played a senior game this year. Not Veszpremi, Howard or Markovic but Pearce and Roberts. Neither have shown anything more than solid form at Willi and haven't really looked like playing Seniors.

Delist: Cross, Markovic, Roberts, Pearce, Howard, Veszpremi.

Upgrade: Austin, Goodes.

Pearce and Roberts are 19 years old, I think they deserve a go since they have had injury interrupted seasons.

[Mofra]

Roberts has been injured for much of the year - I'm a fan of his disposal and bodywork. Austin's form makes it hard, but with Smith on the LTI we can play Austin from round 1 even as a rookie. The question is whether another team is interested, as he deserves a main spot list somewhere in the AFL.

Pearce has been described as a slow developer, has shown a bit but for mine he looks slow on the field for his size/position. Probably gets a year but would want to show something next year if that's the case.
The form of Talia and our 2012 draftees put Marko and Vez out, and I really don't see much in Howard.

4 out, Goodes elevated, and as we were one spot down on the main list we take 4 kids in the draft. Higgins and Williams must be on their last chance but both have talent and work hard.

I'd be surprised if Addison is tapped on the shoulder - seems to be in the top 25-28 players at the club and is in the age bracket we need more of.

Not sure if we will trade anyone out - who do we have that has currency and we'd be prepared to move on? Macca has said we're a "draft & develop" club far more than a trading club.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm not being negative, but I don't see a premiership in the list just yet. I think we still need to cut 5 or even 6 this year, plus rookies. I'd keep Austin as the 3rd rookie and Goodes on the RL with Smith being out. With 2 or 3 retirements next year, if they're up to it, we can elevate them then. We need maximum return from this years draft. 4 live picks and either a 5th or FA/trade is bare minimum IMO.

[Remi Moses]

Pearce and Roberts won't be turfed out IMHO.

[always right]

I think Austin will be retained as a third year rookie, meaning all the other rookies except Goodes will be cut.


Do you think Jong will be cut?

[always right]

Pearce and Roberts won't be turfed out IMHO.

Agree....would be incredibly harsh to delist a 19 year old tall like Roberts considering talls take longer and Roberts seems to show some potential even though he hasn't scored a senior berth yet.

[Bulldog4life]

Agree....would be incredibly harsh to delist a 19 year old tall like Roberts considering talls take longer and Roberts seems to show some potential even though he hasn't scored a senior berth yet.

Played seniors last year I think.

[1eyedog]

Played seniors last year I think.

Yeah last game of the season from memory.

[jeemak]

Senior List - Cross, Addison, Vezspremi, Markovic, Howard

Rookie List - Redpath, Greenwood, Jong

Upgrade - Austin

[LostDoggy]

Yeah last game of the season from memory.

Think he might have debuted as the sub against Richmond at the G.

[G-Mo77]

Yeah last game of the season from memory.

Played 2 games and I think they were the last 2. Injury plagued 2013 and throw in the bad affiliation this year and Fletch just hasn't really had a break. He'll be on our list next year, I've got no doubt about that.

[jeemak]

Senior List - Cross, Addison, Vezspremi, Markovic, Howard

Rookie List - Redpath, Greenwood, Jong

Upgrade - Austin

Can you re-rookie players at the conclusion of the drafts?

[G-Mo77]

I did a list earlier in the thread, I'll have another go with some recent developments.

Main List
Delist: Vezpremi, Markovic, Howard
Retire: Cross
Rookie Elevation: Goodes

We've got an open spot and Goodes slots into that. Addison and Pearce IMO are in trouble should we bring in a player or two during the trade period/free agency. If Pearce is the unlucky one I'd like to try and retain him as a rookie.

Rookies
Delist: Redpath, Greenwood, Austin
Retain: Jong (3rd Year)

Would like to keep Greenwood on but as discussed earlier we can't retain 2 third year rookies. I'm gambling on a healthy Williams with Roberts picking up slack if injury hits again so Austin is unlucky.

This will give us 4 picks in the National Draft and 4 Rookie selections.

Of course trade week and the free agency will throw it all out.

[Happy Days]

If we're being real here I'd be looking to cut Pearce. He seems too slow to make it as a small defender, not skilled enough to make it on the outside, and (to be brutally honest) not hard enough to make it on the inside.

For those who disagree, what do you see in his game that makes you want to keep him?

[soupman]

Do you think Jong will be cut?

I can't see him promoted so his only hope is as a third year rookie. He should beat Greenwood and Redpath to that spot but it comes down to whether we want to keep Austin and if so whether it is on the main list or as a rookie. I rate Jong btw.

[Scorlibo]

I did a list earlier in the thread, I'll have another go with some recent developments.

Main List
Delist: Vezpremi, Markovic, Howard
Retire: Cross
Rookie Elevation: Goodes

We've got an open spot and Goodes slots into that. Addison and Pearce IMO are in trouble should we bring in a player or two during the trade period/free agency. If Pearce is the unlucky one I'd like to try and retain him as a rookie.

Rookies
Delist: Redpath, Greenwood, Austin
Retain: Jong (3rd Year)

Would like to keep Greenwood on but as discussed earlier we can't retain 2 third year rookies. I'm gambling on a healthy Williams with Roberts picking up slack if injury hits again so Austin is unlucky.

This will give us 4 picks in the National Draft and 4 Rookie selections.

Of course trade week and the free agency will throw it all out.

Agree with your logic, but I can't see us getting rid of both Austin and Markovic. Austin has made a great contribution over the last month and he looks to me an AFL player. More than Talia does to be honest.

[LostDoggy]

I wonder about Redpath. He's a big lump of a lad and they've put two years of training and development into him. He's a kid that hasn't come through the traditional pathway of the TAC cup when drafted, having come from the Bendigo league as a borderline mature-ager.

There has to be a strategic decision on why he was drafted, knowing his limitations of fitness base and knowledge support I just mentioned.

Maybe I just want him to make it because he's from my neck of the woods, but I can see Austin being upgraded, Goodes left on as a rookie, and Jong and Greenwood being delisted - Redpath being offered a third year rookie spot.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If we're being real here I'd be looking to cut Pearce. He seems too slow to make it as a small defender, not skilled enough to make it on the outside, and (to be brutally honest) not hard enough to make it on the inside.

Given Gia re-signed, I think Pearce is the unlucky one too for the reasons you mentioned.

The following year will be interesting. Gia will retire whilst pressure comes onto Tutt, Addison and Roberts.

[G-Mo77]

Agree with your logic, but I can't see us getting rid of both Austin and Markovic. Austin has made a great contribution over the last month and he looks to me an AFL player. More than Talia does to be honest.

From what I've seen of Talia he's going to be a a good defender, real good. His body work is excellent and reads the play like a 150+ gamer, he's only in his 2nd year. I'm comfortable going into next season with him as one of our starting back-men. As I said I'm gambling on a healthy Williams so Austin as insurance I can live with.

[westdog54]

With the way that Mitch Wallis has come on as a run-with player in the later part of the season its thrown up yet another list management dilemma: is one, or possibly both, of Picken and Lower in trouble?

The need to have two taggers on the list was questioned earlier this year. Surely three is overkill.

[G-Mo77]

I wonder about Redpath. He's a big lump of a lad and they've put two years of training and development into him. He's a kid that hasn't come through the traditional pathway of the TAC cup when drafted, having come from the Bendigo league as a borderline mature-ager.

There has to be a strategic decision on why he was drafted, knowing his limitations of fitness base and knowledge support I just mentioned.

Maybe I just want him to make it because he's from my neck of the woods, but I can see Austin being upgraded, Goodes left on as a rookie, and Jong and Greenwood being delisted - Redpath being offered a third year rookie spot.

Are you from around Kyneton MRM?

[GVGjr]

With the way that Mitch Wallis has come on as a run-with player in the later part of the season its thrown up yet another list management dilemma: is one, or possibly both, of Picken and Lower in trouble?

The need to have two taggers on the list was questioned earlier this year. Surely three is overkill.


I see things a little differently. I don't think the three players you have mention as necessarily taggers only. Before Mitch found his form, Clay Smith had picked-up up the role. I think for players like Smith and Wallis it's more or less just part of their longer term development.

To me, we can find another role to use players like Picken and Lower.

[bornadog]

We may even be thinking of trading a player with a pick for someone we need?

[GVGjr]

We may even be thinking of trading a player with a pick for someone we need?


We have options and we should explore them.

[LostDoggy]

We may even be thinking of trading a player with a pick for someone we need?

DFA may have some currency.

[soupman]

Dfa is a free agent. I doubt we would get anything for him.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I see things a little differently. I don't think the three players you have mention as necessarily taggers only. Before Mitch found his form, Clay Smith had picked-up up the role. I think for players like Smith and Wallis it's more or less just part of their longer term development.

To me, we can find another role to use players like Picken and Lower.

Wallis looked a borderline selection before becoming a tagger where he has been an instant success. Smith looks to be more likely to become more of a Boyd or Cross type replacement with his tremendous determination with an ability to kick goals. Picken may eventually struggle to hold down a role in defence in front of JJ and Pearce.

[Mofra]

DFA may have some currency.
Every second poster wants to drop him regardless of performance just about every round

[bornadog]

Every second poster wants to drop him regardless of performance just about every round

Played one good game for the year.

[Happy Days]

Every second poster wants to drop him regardless of performance just about every round

Every second poster wants to keep him in the team for no reason every round.

[Mofra]

Every second poster wants to keep him in the team for no reason every round.
Ignoring the fact the MC may (heaven forbid!) actually know what they're doing, how does the counter argument mean he "may have some currency"?

[Happy Days]

Ignoring the fact the MC may (heaven forbid!) actually know what they're doing, how does the counter argument mean he "may have some currency"?

Well they've dropped him 3 or 4 times this year, so I somewhat agree, but I digress.

I don't think he has any currency, I don't think he is a good footballer. Is that what you mean?

[Mofra]

Well they've dropped him 3 or 4 times this year, so I somewhat agree, but I digress.

I don't think he has any currency, I don't think he is a good footballer. Is that what you mean?
If you were following the discussion, I was arguing he has no currency.

[Happy Days]

If you were following the discussion, I was arguing he has no currency.

Sorry for misinterpreting.

The need to find a silver lining in everyone is something I find super annoying (see: Stack, Brennan), but I'm glad we're in agreement (I think)

[The Underdog]

Sorry for misinterpreting.

The need to find a silver lining in everyone is something I find super annoying (see: Stack, Brennan), but I'm glad we're in agreement (I think)

He has no currency purely because he's a free agent. We either sign him or don't. His currency in trade will be about the same as free agent compo, bugger all.

[bulldogtragic]

What key trait does Addison possess, that without, the side will be worse next year?

[LostDoggy]

Well they've dropped him 3 or 4 times this year, so I somewhat agree, but I digress.

I don't think he has any currency, I don't think he is a good footballer. Is that what you mean?

Players who bleed for their club every week are always rated.
Would you prefer Josh Hill or Dylan Addison?

[jeemak]

Players who bleed for their club every week are always rated.
Would you prefer Josh Hill or Dylan Addison?

That's just like asking if you'd prefer a punch in the balls or a kick in the balls.

Why might you need either?

[Mofra]

What key trait does Addison possess, that without, the side will be worse next year?
He's hard, durable and in the age group we need - I still see him in the top 30 players next year (at least at the start of the year). How things progress during the year is the real kicker.

Gia out doesn't factor in the discussion as I think Dickson will be that replacement anyway - the real questions are can Stringer/Hunter cement a spot in the side next year given their age, who plays the hard contested forward role (Smith was doing well at it until his injury), can Grant hold his spot and show some consistency and who will we draft/trade.

I would have asked can Williams/Higgins overcome their injuries but sadly I don't think we should factor either of them in - they are an unlikely bonus, not part of the basic planning.

[bulldogtragic]

He's hard, durable and in the age group we need - I still see him in the top 30 players next year (at least at the start of the year). How things progress during the year is the real kicker.

Gia out doesn't factor in the discussion as I think Dickson will be that replacement anyway - the real questions are can Stringer/Hunter cement a spot in the side next year given their age, who plays the hard contested forward role (Smith was doing well at it until his injury), can Grant hold his spot and show some consistency and who will we draft/trade.

I would have asked can Williams/Higgins overcome their injuries but sadly I don't think we should factor either of them in - they are an unlikely bonus, not part of the basic planning.
Hard, durable and right age:

Hard: I think the list is pretty good on this necessity of the gameplan. Many, probably most, on our list are hard, it's skill that elevate our hard players over others. Hard should not be enough to save him on its own.

Durable: Dylan is not a starting best 6 forward next year, he's not best back 6 this year and he's not a midfielder. He can be an average back up player in multiple positions, without being a specialist in one. If that's durable, I'm not sure this is a benefit.

Right age: Not a deal breaker. Cross offers more, yet the list has moved past him.


I'm not persuaded on this line of reasoning that this is enough to keep him IMO.

[Mofra]

Hard: I think the list is pretty good on this necessity of the gameplan. Many, probably most, on our list are hard, it's skill that elevate our hard players over others. Hard should not be enough to save him on its own.

Durable: Dylan is not a starting best 6 forward next year, he's not best back 6 this year and he's not a midfielder. He can be an average back up player in multiple positions, without being a specialist in one. If that's durable, I'm not sure this is a benefit.

Right age: Not a deal breaker. Cross offers more, yet the list has moved past him.

I'm not persuaded on this line of reasoning that this is enough to keep him IMO.
Nobody is suggesting he should be kept because he's hard alone.
Durable does not mean flexible, it refers to his capacity to actually get on the paddock, something that can't be said for Higgins or Williams.
Age - if we had others in his age profile, I'm not sure he would have survived this year. He's 25 years old, a few years younger than Crossy.

I have a few I'd cut before Dylan, and he has played his role this year. Does he have upside? No. But you do have an idea of what you get every week from him, and on some weeks that's been enough to have him play in the senior team. A goal per game defensive forward isn't star material, but until others demand his spot permanently it's likely to be enough this year.


We still have only four definite outs at this stage for mine, with a few others under question mark. The other side of the coin is - is there the talent to replace a cut player with?


There's no point pruning the list hard if the only blokes available after round 4 are either the second coming of Shane Thorne or have the football brain of James Mulligan. I wouldn't be surprised to hear a few VFL names read out this year.

[chef]

That's just like asking if you'd prefer a punch in the balls or a kick in the balls.

Why might you need either?

:).

We need a like button.

[The bulldog tragician]

Though there seems to be a consensus that Howard will be axed I was at a function just a few days ago where BMac spoke at length ( very impressive too) and he specifically said he believes Howard will make it and be a good solid 100 game player for us - not a superstar as we might have hoped from a high draftee but definitely will make it. I mightn't have his words 100 % right but that was the gist of it.

[bulldogtragic]

Gee, at this rate we face massive AFL sanctions for not using our minimum 3 picks in the draft! :)

[LostDoggy]

Pleeze

Marco
Cross
Vez
Redpath
Greenwood

And that's the absolute minimum. You can almost certainly add another 2 year rookie to that list. I'm more worried we'll have too many picks in the 70's/80's than we can't find players to delist.

Our good players look extremely solid with ever growing depth

We still have a long list of, to be very generous, "fringe" underneath....

[Happy Days]

that's just like asking if you'd prefer a punch in the balls or a kick in the balls.

Why might you need either?

omg thank you

[jeemak]

I'd be happy enough taking three kids in the draft and adding one mature player via a trade.

The bulldog tragition's recount of BMac's point on Howard mirrors that of Greystache's from earlier on in the season. Perhaps, like Grant the club views him as a player that has significant amounts of work to do, though are prepared to be patient with him.

Nailing three draft selections and adding a player like Crameri wouldn't be a bad outcome. Our list profile is already geared heavily towards youth and inexperience, and a high turnover with replenishment at the draft table at this point won't do anything to change that.

[LostDoggy]

I'd be happy enough taking three kids in the draft and adding one mature player via a trade.

The bulldog tragition's recount of BMac's point on Howard mirrors that of Greystache's from earlier on in the season. Perhaps, like Grant the club views him as a player that has significant amounts of work to do, though are prepared to be patient with him.

Nailing three draft selections and adding a player like Crameri wouldn't be a bad outcome. Our list profile is already geared heavily towards youth and inexperience, and a high turnover with replenishment at the draft table at this point won't do anything to change that.

BMac seems to see the best in everyone, one of his strengths seems to be to extract what he sees out of players. I doubt a player could make it to this level and not be rated by him. In this regard, the likes of JMac would have to negotiate some of the tough calls with him.

[jeemak]

Whether he sees the best in all players once they reach the level, I'm not sure. From all accounts he was swift in disposing of Sherman last year, and from what I can gather it was probably a club decision.

He does strike me as a person who is prepared to mould his and his football department's, as well as the club's imperatives into the words that come out of his mouth.

I'd hope that he'd be willing to be consultative with the professionals the club has employed to make decisions over the list structure and its ongoing management over extended periods, rather than having to be talked down from positions of adoration or otherwise.

[ledge]

He made a tough call in Crossy, some players are hard to get rid of due to team happiness , over the years teams have collapsed due to finishing or trading an average or good player but a much loved soul of a club, Cross would be one of those guys I imagine but BMac made a call and personally I think it as the right one , he can make tough decisions when they need to be made and can also make ones like the Gia decision which proves to me he looks at who is best for the club moving forward. Gia will move into coaching and we can see already he is going to be very good at it therefore Maccs has kept him on for future positions .

[LostDoggy]

Whether he sees the best in all players once they reach the level, I'm not sure. From all accounts he was swift in disposing of Sherman last year, and from what I can gather it was probably a club decision.

He does strike me as a person who is prepared to mould his and his football department's, as well as the club's imperatives into the words that come out of his mouth.

I'd hope that he'd be willing to be consultative with the professionals the club has employed to make decisions over the list structure and its ongoing management over extended periods, rather than having to be talked down from positions of adoration or otherwise.

My main point is because he rates Howard doesn't mean Howard won't be delisted - He pretty much rates everyone. If the other members of the football department want to make a couple of extra cuts, Howard could well go.
Who knows at this stage.

[jeemak]

Agree with that. I think Howard's a better than even chance to be delisted.

[Mofra]

Maybe I've been only watching his poorer games - but I can't see anything in Howard that suggests to me he will make it in the AFL. He has an above average tank but that's all (and given he seems to run to the wrong spots more often than not, it's not that much of an advantage).

[DOG GOD]

I can't see Howard making it either...he just doesn't seem to have a position or do enough when he does get the ball. I also think that his asset (kicking skills) is overrated. Doesn't have any real pace to play half back or wing. Maybe one of the SA teams will be interested but we will only get a 3rd rounder if that.

[F'scary]

"Flush away 15" Howard has a big problem in that since he debuted, so many other running players have pushed in front of him in the last 2 years. Dahlhaus, Libba, Wallis, Smith, Johannisen, Dickson, Stevens, Young, Lower, Hrovat, Macrae, Hunter, even Tutt.

Put like that, there can only be one verdict: Delete.

[The Underdog]

Fletcher Roberts announced in the Social Club that he's re-signed

[Greystache]

Fletcher Roberts announced in the Social Club that he's re-signed

Good news although hardly surprising. I've liked what I've seen of Roberts.

[comrade]

Good news although hardly surprising. I've liked what I've seen of Roberts.

Yep, going to be a player.

Surely no one actually called for him to be delisted in this thread?

[bornadog]

Yep, going to be a player.

Surely no one actually called for him to be delisted in this thread?

Yes along with Pearce

[LostDoggy]

So Pearce also eh? The list narrows and 'Who' is firmly in the gun.

[always right]

So Pearce also eh? The list narrows and 'Who' is firmly in the gun.

Not sure he was saying that Pearce has re-signed.....just that like Roberts some have called for his delisting.

[Scorlibo]

Yep, going to be a player.

Surely no one actually called for him to be delisted in this thread?


Yes along with Pearce

I raised the question. Maybe they'll both turn out to be good players but to this point they're behind a lot of other youngsters and next year will be the wrong side of 20 (which might sound silly but if it's more of the same next year then it will be heads on the chopping block for both of them). I'm not trying to be contrary, but the turnover rate is very high - if either were a rookie I think they'd be very likely packing their bags.

[jeemak]

Maybe I've been only watching his poorer games - but I can't see anything in Howard that suggests to me he will make it in the AFL. He has an above average tank but that's all (and given he seems to run to the wrong spots more often than not, it's not that much of an advantage).

Mof, did you see his game against the Cats in 2012?

He hit targets and ran hard. He also worked well defensively whilst gathering 25+ or so touches. He also kicked a couple. He had a great game against Brisbane last year as well.

I'll always agree that he's not shown an ability to play at the top level consistently, but I can't stand for comments saying he's never shown anything at the highest level.

Not saying you've said that necessarily, I just think a lot of people completely disregard any positive attributes he's shown to this point, and make the most of it when sinking the boots in.

[LostDoggy]

Mof, did you see his game against the Cats in 2012?

He hit targets and ran hard. He also worked well defensively whilst gathering 25+ or so touches. He also kicked a couple. He had a great game against Brisbane last year as well.

I'll always agree that he's not shown an ability to play at the top level consistently, but I can't stand for comments saying he's never shown anything at the highest level.

Not saying you've said that necessarily, I just think a lot of people completely disregard any positive attributes he's shown to this point, and make the most of it when sinking the boots in.

If he could combine the defensive attributes he showed during the middle of this year, with what he showed last year and find a bit more poise with disposal then he'd be a fine player.
Another thing to remember is I heard he had a hip op mid-season when he missed a game, he played the season out , had an okay first couple of games post op against sandringham and port but struggled after that.

[soupman]

He also played a very good game at Subiaco a year or so ago, so he has shown he can play at AFL level on a couple of occasions.

My issue is that his kicking is still yet to be damaging at the top level on anything more than the odd ocassion, and his defensive side still needs a lot of work. So he is in the unfortunate position of being too vulnerable defensively as a defender, not able to get enough of it as a mid, and not damaging enough as a forward.

I don't think he is as terrible as many make out, and i do think he has shown glimpses of the talent he was drafted for, but I just don't think he will make it considering there are many players on our list in every position that you would play ahead of him. As an example JJ is a player that arrived at the club similiar time and has leapt ahead of him in every respect.

I think he should be moved on as I want more young talent brought into the club, but I would be ok with him being downgraded to a rookie, which may be something the club will look at if it does have the faith McCartney seems to have.

[Mofra]

Mof, did you see his game against the Cats in 2012?

He hit targets and ran hard. He also worked well defensively whilst gathering 25+ or so touches. He also kicked a couple. He had a great game against Brisbane last year as well.

I'll always agree that he's not shown an ability to play at the top level consistently, but I can't stand for comments saying he's never shown anything at the highest level.

Not saying you've said that necessarily, I just think a lot of people completely disregard any positive attributes he's shown to this point, and make the most of it when sinking the boots in.
The problem is he's never shown any consistency. He looked terrible in the VFL and manages a Cam White-esque brain fade on a weekly basis. I can't recall him having two decent games in a row at any level.

Now he may eventually come good - may - but I hold out little hope.

We constantly hear calls about Cordy, Addison, even Picken - I see Howard as someone who is miles behind all three and IMO far more easy to replace on the list.

[Mofra]

I raised the question. Maybe they'll both turn out to be good players but to this point they're behind a lot of other youngsters and next year will be the wrong side of 20 (which might sound silly but if it's more of the same next year then it will be heads on the chopping block for both of them). I'm not trying to be contrary, but the turnover rate is very high - if either were a rookie I think they'd be very likely packing their bags.
Both have shown a little bit at AFL level, although I still think Pearce is a little slow for the position he plays. Happy enbough for him to go around again.

[LostDoggy]

I would like to see one of Wood, Williams or Higgins moved on for what we can get, I don't think we can carry chronically injured players any longer, especially when spots on the list are starting to get so tight.

[kruder]

Now we are locked in with pic 22 in th draft, would woofers be keen to give it up and get Crameri? For me I would do it in a heart beat. Add that to Bontempelli/Billings at pick 4 plus Macrae,Hrovat,Stringer,Hunter,Young,Stevens and maybe Pruden by reports would mean adding 9 potential best 22 players in two years which would be phenomenal drafting.

Thoughts?

[Bulldog4life]

Now we are locked in with pic 22 in th draft, would woofers be keen to give it up and get Crameri? For me I would do it in a heart beat. Add that to Bontempelli/Billings at pick 4 plus Macrae,Hrovat,Stringer,Hunter,Young,Stevens and maybe Pruden by reports would mean adding 9 potential best 22 players in two years which would be phenomenal drafting.

Thoughts?

I would be happy to get for Crameri for pick 22. We just have to be careful in dealing with Essendon players considering the ongoing ASADA investigation.

[A Ford]

Crameri at pick 22 is a waste.
Not only is he not worth it but should be out for 2 years with his other injector mates.

[bulldogsfight]

dont we get pick 20 , with the Cheating Crows and druggy don smissing out on 1st round picks

[always right]

Personally I don't think Crameri will leave Essendon. They're a pretty tight bunch after everything that's happened this year. Reckon Gumbleton is the most likely to leave due to lack of opportunities going forward. I don't particularly want him.

[whythelongface]

I would be happy to get for Crameri for pick 22. We just have to be careful in dealing with Essendon players considering the ongoing ASADA investigation.

I would be happy to get Crameri for pick 22 if there wasn't the ASADA cloud hanging over Essendon player's heads. However, at this stage, I don't think it is worth taking the risk and then finding out, when ASADA have completed their final report, he is banned for a period of time.

[bornadog]

Personally I don't think Crameri will leave Essendon. They're a pretty tight bunch after everything that's happened this year. Reckon Gumbleton is the most likely to leave due to lack of opportunities going forward. I don't particularly want him.

I really wouldn't want either one, they have been injured so many times throughout their careers, is it really worth the risk.

[Mofra]

I really wouldn't want either one, they have been injured so many times throughout their careers, is it really worth the risk.
I don't think injury is a huge consideration with Crameri - he's played 20, 18 and 16 games in each of the past 3 seasons. That's certainly better than some of our boys, and he's coming from the Bombers who don't seem to manage their players that well considering their soft-tissue injury rate.

The threat of further sanctions is a worry for mine.

[Maddog37]

Forwards are Dal, Hunter, Stringer, Jones, Campbell, Gia, Dickson, Higgins, Grant and Williams.
If we get Cameri where does Addison play?

[bulldogtragic]

Forwards are Dal, Hunter, Stringer, Jones, Campbell, Gia, Dickson, Higgins, Grant and Williams.
If we get Cameri where does Addison play?
Port Melbourne.

[LostDoggy]

Forwards are Dal, Hunter, Stringer, Jones, Campbell, Gia, Dickson, Higgins, Grant and Williams.
If we get Cameri where does Addison play?

A golf course?

[bornadog]

I don't think injury is a huge consideration with Crameri - he's played 20, 18 and 16 games in each of the past 3 seasons. That's certainly better than some of our boys, and he's coming from the Bombers who don't seem to manage their players that well considering their soft-tissue injury rate.

The threat of further sanctions is a worry for mine.

From Press Conference:


THE WESTERN Bulldogs will still be active during the forthcoming exchange period despite a solid end to the season, according to coach Brendan McCartney.

However the main focus will be on bringing youth through the draft as it continues to build a team for the future.

The club has made it clear it needs some key position players and has reportedly made a large offer to Essendon forward Stewart Crameri.

[Mofra]

From Press Conference:
The offer to Crameri was 6+ weeks ago wasn't it? Would be interesting to knoe if we have had any recent contact with his manager.
Still unsigned so other teams are in the hunt.

[LostDoggy]

It'd better be in any Essendon player trade that if you're banned for an extended period of time by WADA/ASADA then your contract is null and void.

[bulldogtragic]

It'd better be in any Essendon player trade that if you're banned for an extended period of time by WADA/ASADA then your contract is null and void.
But do Essendon refund pick 22???

I don't care so much about paying money, losing pick 22 for a suspended player is irresponsible and unforgivable.

If that happened I'd do my nut.

[LostDoggy]

But do Essendon refund pick 22???

I don't care so much about paying money, losing pick 22 for a suspended player is irresponsible and unforgivable.

If that happened I'd do my nut.

We gave up pick 15 on Howard, earlier picks on Walsh/Williams etc including $000 of dollars in pay/training and support, so we've done worse. 22 would be worth the risk as long as the contract caveats were in place.

Personally i'm of the opinion that we stay away from them, unless they got the all clear, whic isn't going to happen in the next 6-8 weeks i would have thought.

[bulldogtragic]

We gave up pick 15 on Howard, earlier picks on Walsh/Williams etc including $000 of dollars in pay/training and support, so we've done worse. 22 would be worth the risk as long as the contract caveats were in place.

Personally i'm of the opinion that we stay away from them, unless they got the all clear, whic isn't going to happen in the next 6-8 weeks i would have thought.
If Crameri or Gumby admit to taking AOD, Thymosin Beta 4 or the Mexican drug or anything else possibly included in S.0 or S.2. Categories, then there is a real possibility giving pick 22 (or any picks) will be dangerously risky. Why take it?

It comes down to A potentially suspended Bomber or a player like Jono Marsh. No brainier. Marsh could fail like those you mentioned, but at least he would be free to play. Why would we willingly enter the Essendon/AFL/ASADA/WADA disaster. We currently have no vested interest in what happens, why willingly involve ourselves and make list management decisions that involve WADA penalising a player of ours.

Can you imagine the Hun/the age in February next year, "in shocking news and a major setback for the rising Western Bulldogs FC, their gun recruit who they used pick 22 on has been banned by ASADA for 2 years for doping violations".

If theyve had even one dose of AOD, TB4, mexican stuff, peptides or anything else... No thanks... Our list management should not be dependant on WADA... No thanks!

[kruder]

I reckon the AFL would have a very good handle on the ASADA situation, from a far it looks like they run it. Obviously WADA could have final say but even if there was possibilities of a 6 month ban I'd still take Crameri. How long would it take pic 22 to develop?

[Mofra]

Looks like we're not worried about ASADA in the slightest:

http://www.footballnation.com.au/afl/afl-clubs/trade-whispers-bulldogs-make-a-big-play-for-crameri/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+com%2FJArK+%28FootballNation.com.au%29


SOON after their Round 23 win over Melbourne, the Western Bulldogs have again touched base with the management of out-of-contract Bomber Stewart Crameri with their latest offer.

Crameri is at the top of the Bulldogs wish-list as they aim to snare a key forward by the end of this year’s trade period.

[bulldogtragic]

Looks like we're not worried about ASADA in the slightest:

http://www.footballnation.com.au/afl/afl-clubs/trade-whispers-bulldogs-make-a-big-play-for-crameri/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+com%2FJArK+%28FootballNation.com.au%29
I feel sick just thinking of dealing with Essendon. Their record of treating other clubs with respect is shitehouse.

[The Doctor]

I wouldn't be giving up pick 22 for Crameri or pick 40 or whatever it is either.

Be ruthless and pick him up in the PSD.

[GVGjr]

I wouldn't be giving up pick 22 for Crameri or pick 40 or whatever it is either.

Be ruthless and pick him up in the PSD.

Agreed.

[Remi Moses]

Yep. Puts a price on his head it will be interesting .
GWS - wouldn't think so, they've got a surplus of forwards if anything.
Melb- see above
Stkilda- the only ones who'd take him, although they've still got Riewoldt, Tom Lee and Spencer White
I just get the feeling Stkilda would be the fly in the proverbial ointment.

[LostDoggy]

Does anyone think any of the players delisted by the suns would be worth picking up, they have delisted Weller, wilkinson, horsley,Gilbee and Patrick . I would think Mav Weller would be a good pick up for someone

[G-Mo77]

Does anyone think any of the players delisted by the suns would be worth picking up, they have delisted Weller, wilkinson, horsley,Gilbee and Patrick . I would think Mav Weller would be a good pick up for someone

Weller is the only one I'd consider. I don't think he'll have much trouble finding another club TBH.

[kruder]

I wouldn't be giving up pick 22 for Crameri or pick 40 or whatever it is either.

Be ruthless and pick him up in the PSD.

If everyone went into trade period with that attitude there would never be a deal done.

[The Doctor]

If everyone went into trade period with that attitude there would never be a deal done.

who cares about everyone else? We must do what is best for us by recruiting quality players as cheaply as we can. So if we can get Crameri in the PSD we keep our 2nd rounder and pick another young gun rather than giving Essendon that opportunity.

Wouldn't you prefer to see that?

[azabob]

who cares about everyone else? We must do what is best for us by recruiting quality players as cheaply as we can. So if we can get Crameri in the PSD we keep our 2nd rounder and pick another young gun rather than giving Essendon that opportunity.

Wouldn't you prefer to see that?

I know I would.

[Mofra]

Weller is the only one I'd consider. I don't think he'll have much trouble finding another club TBH.
He's free too as a delisted free agent - be surprised if he isn't given another chance

[Bulldog4life]

I know I would.

So would I but with Macca's previous association with Essendon I can't see it happening.

[kruder]

who cares about everyone else? We must do what is best for us by recruiting quality players as cheaply as we can. So if we can get Crameri in the PSD we keep our 2nd rounder and pick another young gun rather than giving Essendon that opportunity.

Wouldn't you prefer to see that?

I'm realistic not sure you are. I would like to trade Liam Jones for Boyd but it ain't going to happen.

[stefoid]

FWIW, someone on big footy stating bell chambers as his source says essendon will annoucne re-signing of bellchambers and crameri soon.

Maybe Crameri is destined to be the player we annually seem to chase with our second round pick that we don't get, and in retrospect are relived because we end up drafting a good player with it.

[Twodogs]

FWIW, someone on big footy stating bell chambers as his source says essendon will annoucne re-signing of bellchambers and crameri soon.


Essendon or Bulldog supporter Steffens?

If its an Essendon supporter I'd take it with a grain of salt. They all live in la-la land where every Essendon fan lives together in a big house and tell each other everything that's going on.

[Mofra]

Vez, Lower & Marko not offered contracts for next year.

[LostDoggy]

Can someone please explain the Lower delisting, besides the emergence of Wallis as a shutdown player :confused:

[Remi Moses]

Vez, Lower & Marko not offered contracts for next year.

I think you'll find the club has enough of the same with Lower.

[Greystache]

Can someone please explain the Lower delisting, besides the emergence of Wallis as a shutdown player :confused:

I think you've hit the nail on the head, along with Gia being retained and thus reducing the benefit of the maturity he offers. I feel for Lower, he did a lot right during his time with us.

I would expect more delistings to come.

[stefoid]

Essendon or Bulldog supporter Steffens?

If its an Essendon supporter I'd take it with a grain of salt. They all live in la-la land where every Essendon fan lives together in a big house and tell each other everything that's going on.

Essendon.

[stefoid]

Can someone please explain the Lower delisting, besides the emergence of Wallis as a shutdown player :confused:

Lower was recruited to give our midfield some physical and mental hardness.

But Libba and Wallis showed they could physically and mentally match it with the best.

Plus Hunter, Macrae and Hrovat looking like they belonged.

So Lower was a victim of our overachieving youngsters.

[LostDoggy]

I'll look back on Nick's time at the Western Bulldogs with fondness. His big grin whenever roughing up an opponent, his squat-angled left-footed punt into the forwardline.

Forever known as 'Ed's brother' or 'the one that wasn't in Big Brother' in our household.

Best of luck

[whythelongface]

Vez, Lower & Marko not offered contracts for next year.

Whilst disappointed for Lower I believe the club has made an excellent decision by delisting him. He was serviceable whilst at the club and played his part helping the club become stronger, however as we have a number of players that can fulfill his role with much more upside there really was no longer a spot for him on our list.

[chef]

Vez, Lower & Marko not offered contracts for next year.

Fair enough.

Howard and Addison go around again?

[bulldogtragic]

Fair enough.

Howard and Addison go around again?
I wouldn't agree personally. But maybe, yes.

[Sedat]

Looks like we're not worried about ASADA in the slightest:

http://www.footballnation.com.au/afl/afl-clubs/trade-whispers-bulldogs-make-a-big-play-for-crameri/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+com%2FJArK+%28FootballNation.com.au%29
The bit about Shane Kersten at the bottom of that article was interesting. Any regular VFL watchers think he is worth looking at?

[comrade]

Some tough but good (IMO) list decisions have been made already post season. Are we seeing the value in having a dedicated list manager?

[LostDoggy]

Fair enough.

Howard and Addison go around again?

In the past we've often done delistings in 2 or 3 groupings, could be more to come.

[SlimPickens]

In the past we've often done delistings in 2 or 3 groupings, could be more to come.

I expect this, there is no word on any of the rookies and you'd imagine there will be a fair turnover of that list.

[LostDoggy]

I to liked Lower. And have a soft spot for Marko

[Bulldog Joe]

I to liked Lower. And have a soft spot for Marko

While I agree with your sentiments, there is no place for a soft spot with list management decisions,

[LostDoggy]

What are people's thoughts on these three players lining up for our VFL side next year? All honest triers who perform well at the lower level but couldn't quite make the grade in the seniors. Great blokes and hard trainers from all reports. Obviously reliant on them wanting to, but personally I'd be disappointed if the offer wasn't made.

[westdog54]

Fair enough.

Howard and Addison go around again?

I would think that the only thing saving them is if we get some very good offers for otherwise 'required' players, or if they get picked up themselves.

With Dylan being a free agent we may just decide to take the 3rd round pick we'll get as compo.

If by some miracle its a second rounder we get, we should dangle it in front of Essendon and see what they'll offer.

[Bulldog Joe]

What are people's thoughts on these three players lining up for our VFL side next year? All honest triers who perform well at the lower level but couldn't quite make the grade in the seniors. Great blokes and hard trainers from all reports. Obviously reliant on them wanting to, but personally I'd be disappointed if the offer wasn't made.

Not sure which 3 you are referring too.

Crossy played 210 games, many of them when we were a very good side. Not sure he meets not quite making the grade, although I do believe he doesn't now offer enough to be retained.

Veszpremi hardly looks like the hard trainer definition as he has seriously under performed.

Marko and Lower certainly meet your description and would be good with the VFL side to give some strength and experience. Obviously they would first explore what other options are available to them.

[LostDoggy]

Not sure which 3 you are referring too.

Crossy played 210 games, many of them when we were a very good side. Not sure he meets not quite making the grade, although I do believe he doesn't now offer enough to be retained.

Veszpremi hardly looks like the hard trainer definition as he has seriously under performed.

Marko and Lower certainly meet your description and would be good with the VFL side to give some strength and experience. Obviously they would first explore what other options are available to them.

Sorry, referring to Vez, Marko and Lower. Vez has never had the tank for AFL footy but I imagine he wouldn't have survived the cut last year if it was simply due to not training hard enough, given we parted ways with Sherman even though he had a year remaining on his contract.

[Bulldog Joe]

Sorry, referring to Vez, Marko and Lower. Vez has never had the tank for AFL footy but I imagine he wouldn't have survived the cut last year if it was simply due to not training hard enough, given we parted ways with Sherman even though he had a year remaining on his contract.

Pretty sure Vesz was retained solely because of contract as they really could not afford to pay out Vesz as well as Sherman.
Not having the tank after 5 years on AFL lists is pretty indicative that his training was not up to standard.

[Greystache]

Pretty sure Vesz was retained solely because of contract as they really could not afford to pay out Vesz as well as Sherman.
Not having the tank after 5 years on AFL lists is pretty indicative that his training was not up to standard.

Not necessarily. Not every player has the physiological ability to be an endurance athlete, no amount of training can change that. I don't know specifically what Vez's VO2 max score is but I'd wager it would be the lowest at the club.

When I watched training he always seemed to put in, he just also always finished at the back of all the running drills.

[LostDoggy]

Hoping Addison goes or delisted. He is a battler of the old image of Footscray who would struggle to get a game elsewhere. We have a couple other similar strugglers but they are seen as clubs faves ...... so we will have to wait.

[Remi Moses]

Vezspremi always looked like he'd just finished the London Marathon after a 20 metre sprint.
Markovic is a good VFL player, but not quite AFL standard.
Lower fulfield a role that has now been taken on by Mitch Wallis.
Already have another tagger spot taken by Liam Picken.

[G-Mo77]

Just finding out about our delistings. I guess that's what you get for taking a phone to work without charging. Genuinely surprised about Lower, I could have sworn he signed for 2 years. As people have mentioned he's been over taken by others. Feel a bit sad for the guy though as he could have stayed with Freo.

No surprises with Vez and Marko. I hate this time of year, it's always sad seeing players depart.

[EasternWest]

Not necessarily. Not every player has the physiological ability to be an endurance athlete, no amount of training can change that. I don't know specifically what Vez's VO2 max score is but I'd wager it would be the lowest at the club.

When I watched training he always seemed to put in, he just also always finished at the back of all the running drills.

One look at Vez tells you regardless of his VO2 he's not doing what it takes. You can have a poor VO2 and not be able to improve it, but anyone can drop their body fat.

I liked Vez, I thought he was talented, but he didn't take his second chance. Time to move on.

[Bulldog Joe]

Not necessarily. Not every player has the physiological ability to be an endurance athlete, no amount of training can change that. I don't know specifically what Vez's VO2 max score is but I'd wager it would be the lowest at the club.

When I watched training he always seemed to put in, he just also always finished at the back of all the running drills.

Well if he was always at the back of the running drills, his training was not up to standard.
This does not matter if it was effort or ability.

[Mofra]

The bit about Shane Kersten at the bottom of that article was interesting. Any regular VFL watchers think he is worth looking at?
Geelong fans I've talked to seem to think he has a future. He has kicked a couple of bags - would have to play medium marking tall at AFL level, so I assume he's on the cards if we miss out on Crameri

[bornadog]

Geelong fans I've talked to seem to think he has a future. He has kicked a couple of bags - would have to play medium marking tall at AFL level, so I assume he's on the cards if we miss out on Crameri

I am sick of picking up fringe players like that for key positions. Lets go after a big fish
(I don't know who that would be :D), someone in their prime and whack a big paycheck in front of them.

[LostDoggy]

Well if he was always at the back of the running drills, his training was not up to standard.
This does not matter if it was effort or ability.

Vez had the same issues at Sydney as their fans will attest. He did everything he could to improve on the the fact that he was blowing up. And no amount of training / trying new things to overcome this condition worked for him. He is what he is.

[Mofra]

I am sick of picking up fringe players like that for key positions. Lets go after a big fish
The problem with the big fish is they cost a lot - generally over market rates.
As much as we're going to be an "active player" in trade period, we've been flagged as a "draft & develop" type club and I'm glad we will be.

There doesn't seem to be too much on offer this year anyway, although post-finals the top 8 sides will be more likely to flag thier intentions.

[Twodogs]

Essendon.

Cheers.


BTW my Ipad decided to call you 'Steffens'. I didnt come up with a pet name for you.