AFL targets Essendon Royalty

[Ghost Dog]

THE AFL appears determined to drive a wedge between coach and club in the Essendon supplements scandal by making known its intention to charge senior coach James Hird, football manager Danny Corcoran and the club's long-serving doctor, Bruce Reid, with offences that could end their involvement in the game.

The AFL, using outside lawyers from corporate firm Minter Ellison, this week canvassed during lengthy discussions with Essendon a potential case against the highly respected trio for conduct unbecoming or prejudicial to the interests of the AFL. The broad provision, contained within the AFL player rules, covers conduct that brings the game into disrepute.

The AFL has indicated the club's potential penalties from the supplement scandal -- such as the removal of premiership points or draft picks -- could be mitigated by Hird agreeing to plead guilty and stand down from coaching.

No final decision to lay charges has been taken by AFL general counsel Andrew Dillon, who will advise the AFL Commission. AFL chief executive Andrew Demetriou, as a commissioner who may sit in judgment of Essendon officials, has vowed to remain at arm's length from the process of formulating charges.


Questions from The Weekend Australian about whether the AFL's lawyers had canvassed charges against Hird, Corcoran and Reid in discussions with Essendon prompted a series of denials from Dillon and Demetriou.

"Our lawyers are speaking to Essendon about process but they are not in a position to talk about individuals or charges because Andrew Dillon is yet to finalise his review of the ASADA report," Mr Demetriou said. "It is wrong to say they have spoken to Essendon about charges or about individuals."

The Weekend Australian understands that Hird, Corcoran, and 68-year-old Reid, Hird's family physician who has been treating Essendon players for 32 years, were informed by Essendon and its lawyers shortly after the club's discussions with the AFL that they were likely to be charged.

Hird, Corcoran and Reid are understood to be furious at the development and determined to contest any charges. The move will also anger Essendon players and supporters. Like Reid, Corcoran has been a close personal friend and confidant of Hird since the start of his playing days. All three men are considered family at Windy Hill.

The case against the trio is based on material contained within the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority's 400-page "interim" report into Essendon's 2012 supplement program designed by sports scientist Stephen Dank.

Hird, Corcoran and Reid are variously accused of failing to properly govern and administer the supplements program -- which is understood to have involved the contentious peptide hormone AOD-9604 -- putting at risk the welfare of players and exposing them to a possible doping offence.

All three gave lengthy interviews to ASADA in which they detailed their knowledge of and involvement of the supplements regime. None was accused of deliberately setting out to cheat.

Essendon's legal team, led by prominent barrister Jack Rush QC, and Hird's lawyers, including human rights defender Julian Burnside QC, are prepared to challenge the standing of the ASADA report and whether its use by the AFL Commission to prosecute charges other than doping offences is in breach of the ASADA Act and regulations.

The National Anti-Doping Scheme allows ASADA to disclose to a sporting administration body information gathered as part of an ASADA investigation. The AFL's Anti Doping Code further obliges ASADA to report to the AFL on the exercise of its anti-doping functions, including investigations.

If the AFL is able to rely on the ASADA report, Essendon and Hird's lawyers will seek to test its evidence and subject to cross-examination witnesses relied on by the report. Those arguments are likely to be made in the Victorian Supreme Court, rather than at AFL House.

With legal manoeuvres expected to continue over the weekend, The Weekend Australian has also been told of previously unreported communications between Demetriou, his chief operating officer, Gil McLachlan, and former Essendon president David Evans in which Essendon was first warned it was the target of an anti-doping investigation.

The Weekend Australian has been told that by February 3 -- two days before Essendon "self reported" concerns about its 2012 supplements program to the AFL and a day before the first documented contact between the league and club about doping concerns -- Demetriou and McLachlan told Evans he had a problem at Essendon.

Evans in turn passed on the information to another club official.

Demetriou said that the conversation did not take place. "That's just rubbish," he said.

"We didn't know anything at that stage."

The contested conversation may emerge as a key issue if Hird, Corcoran and Reid defend themselves against accusations they brought the game into disrepute. Armed with details of this conversation and a subsequent conversation between Demetriou and Evans the next day, Essendon may argue that if not for the actions of the AFL, concerns about the supplements program would have been kept in-house for longer, reducing the damage to the game.

The AFL Commission is described as having unfettered powers to deal with breaches of its player rules. However, it has never had to defend its disciplinary process against a full-frontal, well-resourced legal challenge.

Serious charges against other clubs for cheating the salary cap or manipulating the draft have all been resolved through negotiated settlement.

The AFL remains hopeful that a settlement may still be reached to avoid what now shapes as a legal stoush potentially more damaging than the supplements scandal itself.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/afl-targets-essendon-royalty/story-fnca0u4y-1226694574517

[LostDoggy]

Integrity has flown south for the winter.

[LostDoggy]

Armed with details of this conversation and a subsequent conversation between Demetriou and Evans the next day, Essendon may argue that if not for the actions of the AFL, concerns about the supplements program would have been kept in-house for longer, reducing the damage to the game.

I know that this is the journalists interpretation, but if it was the case, it is flabbergasting to think this could be used to try and mitigate their penalty !

[Dry Rot]

Wasn't there meant to be an announcement of penalties/charges today?

[GVGjr]

Wasn't there meant to be an announcement of penalties/charges today?


Looks like there is some back and forth between the lawyers etc. More likely tomorrow now.

I suspect Essendon has changed their position and now want a fight.

[LostDoggy]

Looks like there is some back and forth between the lawyers etc. More likely tomorrow now.

I suspect Essendon has changed their position and now want a fight.

They didnt before?

[GVGjr]

They didnt before?

Before Paul Little was appointed I don't think there was going to be an all out fight but the word is that there was some compromise reached yesterday that has now gone sour. This might now take a lot longer than was originally thought.

[chef]

Answers at 7.30 live on channel 7

[azabob]

Apparently press conference at 7.30pm tonight.

[DOG GOD]

This will be interesting....

[LostDoggy]

Or 513

[LostDoggy]

WADA laws apparently don't count in the AFL.

[Hotdog60]

Players are off the hook at the moment. It may depend on WADA what happens to them.

[Twodogs]

WADA laws apparently don't count in the AFL.


I thought WADA rules applied if the competition concerned received Federal Government funds.

[westdog54]

WADA laws apparently don't count in the AFL.

ASADA's investigation ongoing, no conclusive proof against any individual player. This keeps getting forgotten in the debate.

[Greystache]

They're going to work hard to minimise the damage to the Bombers as much as possible. In all honesty if Hird was prepared to take the fall for the good of the club they'd probably get off close to Scot free.

[bulldogtragic]

Essendon would be reasonably happy I would have thought.

[DOG GOD]

Typical

[Remi Moses]

I actually want them to lose draft picks , as this will hurt them more.

[Mofra]

I actually want them to lose draft picks , as this will hurt them more.
Ditto. There will be further sanctions when ASADA finalise their report - they have only been granted powers to compel Dank to interview since 1 August.

I do feel for their players, but any sympathy I have for Hird, Little & many of their fans has long since evaporated.

[DOG GOD]

Do u think hird and the like will be suspended from the game for bringing the game into disrepute, or will it just be a club fine?

[Dry Rot]

From what I have read, it seems that ASADA has just acquired the ability to compel witnesses to give evidence from 1 August.

ATM, there isn't enough evidence about what particular player got when, therefore no infractions.

But that may change when Dank is compelled to give evidence to ASADA.

[Ghost Dog]

Gets fined $5000 clams a day if he doesn't talk to ASADA. That's a lot of seafood.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

I actually want them to lose draft picks , as this will hurt them more.
Lowering their salary cap would be justifiable and fair compensation to the other clubs. They have disgraced the league and the penalty must reflect that. There can be no whitewash or lack of rigour in their penalties or else the competition is reduced to farce.

[Sedat]

From what I have read, it seems that ASADA has just acquired the ability to compel witnesses to give evidence from 1 August.

ATM, there isn't enough evidence about what particular player got when, therefore no infractions.

But that may change when Dank is compelled to give evidence to ASADA.
Bingo. Today was all about charging the club based on governance issues, which Essendon would be insane to argue against. Then ASADA will quietly go about finishing their report in the off season and will smash the players.

Take note of the wording tonight. Investigaion continuing (no set end date, a la Lance Armstrong). No individuals to be given infraction notices at this point in time (club infraction still very much in play).

[Scraggers]

ASADA's investigation ongoing, no conclusive proof against any individual player. This keeps getting forgotten in the debate.

Watson's confession that he took a banned substance is not proof? He admitted it! In a murder trial, this would have you in a gas chamber in the US.

Essence on have been very canny in their defence ... Releasing information, comments, pleas all at the right time. It would not surprise me if they had paid The Weapon to give his 'non-factual' account just to throw authorities off the scent !! (Far fetched, I know)


Throw the book at them ... Spine first !!

[westdog54]

Watson's confession that he took a banned substance is not proof? He admitted it! In a murder trial, this would have you in a gas chamber in the US.

Essence on have been very canny in their defence ... Releasing information, comments, pleas all at the right time. It would not surprise me if they had paid The Weapon to give his 'non-factual' account just to throw authorities off the scent !! (Far fetched, I know)


Throw the book at them ... Spine first !!

No he didn't.

What he said was that one of the substances he was administered through the year MAY have been AOD-9604. That's not a confession and its yet another example of how debate on this is being contaminated.

[Scraggers]

No he didn't.

What he said was that one of the substances he was administered through the year MAY have been AOD-9604. That's not a confession and its yet another example of how debate on this is being contaminated.

I would love to see the transcript ... My recollection was an admission.

I take your point though, trying to get a fair trial anywhere (other than Airport West) will be impossible.

[Greystache]

I would love to see the transcript ... My recollection was an admission.

I take your point though, trying to get a fair trial anywhere (other than Airport West) will be impossible.

My recollection is he said "my understanding is I was given AOD-9604, yes"

So not quite a confession, but an admission of possible guilt. The wording was no doubt carefully managed.

[bornadog]

I would love to see the transcript ... My recollection was an admission.

I take your point though, trying to get a fair trial anywhere (other than Airport West) will be impossible.

Z6d24fng-v0

[Go_Dogs]

I'm of the view this could go on for 2-3 years if the talk of Essendon opening up the war chest to resource a legal battle. Courts move slowly and although I'm not 100% over all the ins and outs, I'm sure there are various avenues for appeal that will be exhausted until such time as Essendon get the outcome they want - or run out of options trying to get that outcome.

Hard to see any final determination being reached in the short term for mine..... sadly.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Lowering their salary cap would be justifiable and fair compensation to the other clubs. They have disgraced the league and the penalty must reflect that. There can be no whitewash or lack of rigour in their penalties or else the competition is reduced to farce.

Please disregard this post. I didn't realise that we don't know that the substance is illegal.

[Scraggers]

No he didn't.

What he said was that one of the substances he was administered through the year MAY have been AOD-9604. That's not a confession and its yet another example of how debate on this is being contaminated.


Z6d24fng-v0

He signed a consent form to be administered AOD-9604 (which was co-signed by Danks) and believed he was being administered AOD-9604.

This, to me, is an admission.

The fact he thought it to be legal at the time is irrelevant.

[Twodogs]

The AFL cannot adjudicate on this matter. They have to bring in an outside person/body to hand down the punishment in order to remove themselves from the perception they are acting as judge, jury and executioner.

[Happy Days]

Leigh Matthews says that there isn't enough evidence in the ASADA report to charge the players with anything.

I want to know how he got a copy of the report?

Or even furthermore, how someone who clearly only has looked at the surface facts of a case as dictated to him on a rundown sheet can be paid for comment on the issue?

He's worse than Spike.

[LostDoggy]

I'm lost now.
If no players have been charged with anything and it is not yet determined if any substance taken is legal or not, how are they charged with "bringing the game into disrepute" ???

[Mofra]

I'm of the view this could go on for 2-3 years if the talk of Essendon opening up the war chest to resource a legal battle. Courts move slowly and although I'm not 100% over all the ins and outs, I'm sure there are various avenues for appeal that will be exhausted until such time as Essendon get the outcome they want - or run out of options trying to get that outcome.

Hard to see any final determination being reached in the short term for mine..... sadly.
Yep - look forward to Essendon playing at 4.40 every Sunday afternoon, playing Collingwood, Richmond & Carlton as away games every year and the odd 5 day break after playing in Perth to spice up their season.

The AFL are holding most of the cards here.

[AndrewP6]

I'm lost now.
If no players have been charged with anything and it is not yet determined if any substance taken is legal or not, how are they charged with "bringing the game into disrepute" ???

I think the blame is being laid at the feet of those overseeing the program, not the players themselves. Hence the charges on Hird and Co.

[LostDoggy]

I think the blame is being laid at the feet of those overseeing the program, not the players themselves. Hence the charges on Hird and Co.

That's kind of what I'm asking. What exactly is the core of the "program" ?
I always thought it was the administering of a banned substance? If that is the case, how does a disrepute charge come before the actual who did what when charges? Because (hypothetically) if it is found no foul play has occurred, they are innocent and can't have a bringing the game into disrepute charge?
Did I say I was lost? I ment upside down facing backward on the south pole without a compass during a magnetic polar shift.

[Bulldog4life]

We have to remember this is the interim report. It is ongoing so no players are safe yet. Their fate might not be known until next year.

[Sedat]

I'm lost now.
If no players have been charged with anything and it is not yet determined if any substance taken is legal or not, how are they charged with "bringing the game into disrepute" ???
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/the-outcome-bombers-couldnt-avoid/story-e6frfkp9-1226696613483#ixzz2bthg42uw

The ASADA interim report has (presumably) only confirmed what Essendon's own Ziggy report back in March outlined, that they have brought the game into disrepute. This from Ziggy:

"In particular, the rapid diversification into exotic supplements, sharp increase in frequency of injections, the shift to treatment offsite in alternative medical clinics, emergence of unfamiliar suppliers, marginalisation of traditional medical staff, etc. combine to create a disturbing picture of a pharmacologically experimental environment never adequately controlled or challenged or documented within the club or in the period under review."

Their practices and procedures and governance in 2011/12 have brought the game into disrepute. Essendon can try and fight it all they like but their own report confirmed an out of control supplements regime that wasn't adequately controlled. They are stuffed, as are all of Hird, Thompson, Corcoran and Reid. And then ASADA will continue to quietly go about their business of finalising their report and findings, getting Dank to sing like a canary (as they now have the coercive powers to do so) and the players will get smashed sometime in the off-season when the final report concluded.

[Varangian]

I'm lost now.
If no players have been charged with anything and it is not yet determined if any substance taken is legal or not, how are they charged with "bringing the game into disrepute" ???

Yes it is strange. If the players have not been charged because there is no evidence of illegal substances being used then why is the Essendon hierarchy potentially being charged for administering them? This appears to be the basis for bringing the game into disrepute.

You cannot be held accountable for bringing the game into disrepute when the administering of banned substances is nothing more than an allegation.

I have two questions that I hope someone more learned can answer;

1. Are Essendon charged with this because Hird took a banned substance?

2. Is not Jobe Watson's admission that he took AOD-9604 an admission of legal culpability under ASADA protocols and if so shouldn't he be the first player issued with an infraction notice?

[The Pie Man]

We have to remember this is the interim report. It is ongoing so no players are safe yet. Their fate might not be known until next year.

Yep

Headlines like 'Players likely safe' are almost willingly misunderstanding the situation.

Given (potential) infraction notices would come from ASADA, the charges laid by the AFL are the only ones available to them to prosecute....as flimsy as this catch all 'disrepute' law of theirs seems.

If players aren't charged at some point - especially after Jobe Watson's admission (I mean belief/understanding!) I'll struggle to follow this sport any longer

[LostDoggy]

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/the-outcome-bombers-couldnt-avoid/story-e6frfkp9-1226696613483#ixzz2bthg42uw

The ASADA interim report has (presumably) only confirmed what Essendon's own Ziggy report back in March outlined, that they have brought the game into disrepute. This from Ziggy:

"In particular, the rapid diversification into exotic supplements, sharp increase in frequency of injections, the shift to treatment offsite in alternative medical clinics, emergence of unfamiliar suppliers, marginalisation of traditional medical staff, etc. combine to create a disturbing picture of a pharmacologically experimental environment never adequately controlled or challenged or documented within the club or in the period under review."

Their practices and procedures and governance in 2011/12 have brought the game into disrepute. Essendon can try and fight it all they like but their own report confirmed an out of control supplements regime that wasn't adequately controlled. They are stuffed, as are all of Hird, Thompson, Corcoran and Reid. And then ASADA will continue to quietly go about their business of finalising their report and findings, getting Dank to sing like a canary (as they now have the coercive powers to do so) and the players will get smashed sometime in the off-season when the final report concluded.

I fully understand it looks Suss.
However the above reads (with no other charges being laid yet) that Essendon has been charged with bringing the game into disrepute due to bad bookkeeping.

[Twodogs]

I fully understand it looks Suss.
However the above reads (with no other charges being laid yet) that Essendon has been charged with bringing the game into disrepute due to bad bookkeeping.



It's pretty damning from a Governance POV as well as the lack of documentation. I look forward to hearing what the AFL deems as reputable.

[Maddog37]

Essendon look like the kid that has icing on their fingers and crumbs around their mouth but continues to deny they ate the cake.

Just because their is no paper trail will not stop Wada etc from turning the screw. The lack of paper trail simply makes it look worse IMHO.

[LongWait]

Essendon look like the kid that has icing on their fingers and crumbs around their mouth but continues to deny they ate the cake.

Just because their is no paper trail will not stop Wada etc from turning the screw. The lack of paper trail simply makes it look worse IMHO.

The lack of a paper trail is the only thing preventing individual players from being charged - and of course that may change if Dank is ever interviewed by ASADA.

The astounding incompetence of the Essendon regime and it's lack of record keeping and oversight of the program has given the players a temporary reprieve, but it will not and should not save the club and the four officials charged by the AFL.

[LostDoggy]

I would be devastated if this was our club, so disappointed in everyone I would give up my membership.

[LostDoggy]

I would be devastated if this was our club, so disappointed in everyone I would give up my membership.

If this were our club, the AFL would have already kicked us out for the remainder of the season and signed the club lease over to Tassie by now.

[azabob]

If this were our club, the AFL would have already kicked us out for the remainder of the season and signed the club lease over to Tassie by now.

Sad but true HM.

A bit like Libba recieving a first strike without returning a positive test...

[westdog54]

Yes it is strange. If the players have not been charged because there is no evidence of illegal substances being used then why is the Essendon hierarchy potentially being charged for administering them? This appears to be the basis for bringing the game into disrepute.

You cannot be held accountable for bringing the game into disrepute when the administering of banned substances is nothing more than an allegation.

I have two questions that I hope someone more learned can answer;

1. Are Essendon charged with this because Hird took a banned substance?

2. Is not Jobe Watson's admission that he took AOD-9604 an admission of legal culpability under ASADA protocols and if so shouldn't he be the first player issued with an infraction notice?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the debate on this subject has become so contaminated with half-truths, misinterpretations and deflections that some people aren't even sure what we're actually debating anymore.

First of all, to say that there is 'no evidence of illegal substances being used is not right. What is actually happening is that there is not enough evidence to pin the administering of an illegal substance to any one given player. As such you cannot issue an infraction.

Secondly, Jobe Watson has never, not once, admitted to taking AOD-9604 and I defy anyone to find a direct quote from Watson that says otherwise.

Thirdly, Essendon have brought the game into disrepute with their lax handling of a program involving highly experimental substances, and the astounding risks they placed their players under, for, what it turned out, was seemingly minimal benefit. The club must be held accountable for their own lack of control and the treatment of their players.

[westdog54]

The other thing Essendon seems to be forgetting in all of this, is that they receive so many benefits from the AFL that could so very, very easily be taken away.

The revenue from the ANZAC Day game.
Sponsor-Friendly fixturing.
Guaranteed blockbuster games.

They could be shooting themselves in the foot if they decide to take the fight to the AFL.

[immortalmike]

Yep - look forward to Essendon playing at 4.40 every Sunday afternoon, playing Collingwood, Richmond & Carlton as away games every year and the odd 5 day break after playing in Perth to spice up their season.

The AFL are holding most of the cards here.

So they'd effectively be giving them our fixture then?

[bornadog]

The other thing Essendon seems to be forgetting in all of this, is that they receive so many benefits from the AFL that could so very, very easily be taken away.

The revenue from the ANZAC Day game.
Sponsor-Friendly fixturing.
Guaranteed blockbuster games.

They could be shooting themselves in the foot if they decide to take the fight to the AFL.

If any of the supplements are deemed illegal, can the police press charges?

[Twodogs]

If any of the supplements are deemed illegal, can the police press charges?


Yeah. This is what I want to know? Will there be a police investigation?

[westdog54]

If any of the supplements are deemed illegal, can the police press charges?

If its illegal to possess them under the drugs, poisons and controlled substances act, and there is evidence that will stand up before the court beyond a reasonable doubt, then its quite possible.

[Ghost Dog]

Read Bob Murphy's magnificent article in Theage today. Actually I'm not always a fan of his articles but this one today is worth framing. And it reminds me there are so many positive things worth focusing on. From next year I hope to see sweeping changes that prevent this happening again. This whole drugs thing is going to drag on now for another year at least. Get ready to tune out.

[LongWait]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the debate on this subject has become so contaminated with half-truths, misinterpretations and deflections that some people aren't even sure what we're actually debating anymore.

First of all, to say that there is 'no evidence of illegal substances being used is not right. What is actually happening is that there is not enough evidence to pin the administering of an illegal substance to any one given player. As such you cannot issue an infraction.

Secondly, Jobe Watson has never, not once, admitted to taking AOD-9604 and I defy anyone to find a direct quote from Watson that says otherwise.

Thirdly, Essendon have brought the game into disrepute with their lax handling of a program involving highly experimental substances, and the astounding risks they placed their players under, for, what it turned out, was seemingly minimal benefit. The club must be held accountable for their own lack of control and the treatment of their players.

Well put WestDog. There is no doubt that WADA banned substances were administered to players... but which players? That we don't know for certain which players received AOD-9604 will not protect Essendon as a club.

[Sedat]

Well put WestDog. There is no doubt that WADA banned substances were administered to players... but which players? That we don't know for certain which players received AOD-9604 will not protect Essendon as a club.
Not to mention Thymosin Beta-4 and Heraxelin, both of which are banned S2 drugs.

The arrogant fools now running the show at Windy Hill think that the AFL Commission are their enemy - they were their closest allies and best hope in relation to trying to reduce the fall-out on the club as much as possible. Their legal action against the AFL Commission has put paid to any hope of clemency - they are screwed. Now the prospect of Essendon having their license revoked for 2 years is a real possibility, especially when the final ASADA report is delivered and sees most of the playing list get rubbed out for minimum 2 years for taking banned PED's.

No club is bigger than the competition. The very game's credibility is now on the line, and finally I think the penny has dropped for Vlad and the commission that the greater good of the game is far more important than window dressing and posturing to make the appearance of a code and competition in good health. This doping saga is rotten to the core - it is systematic cheating on a similar scale to East Germany, Balco, Team Lance, etc... and Hird will be persona non-grata after the final punch has been thrown. Speaking of which, John Fahey will be stepping down at WADA president in November, and his likely successor will be Ed Moses, former Olympic champion and one of the fiercest critics of doping - what better way to announce yourself to the role than to nail a big fish to the wall.

[Sedat]

http://theconversation.com/human-experimentation-and-ethics-at-essendon-football-club-15550?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest+from+The+Conversation+for+15+August+2013&utm_content=Latest+from+The+Conversation+for+15+August+2013+ CID_9e6a61842887d5548c8ffc33841ca93e&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=Human%20experimentation%20and%20ethics%20at%20Essen don%20Football%20Club

This is a great read and cuts to the core of the issue at hand. Ignore 99% of all the hot air expelled by moron ex.footballers and cheerleading scribes. Essendon has a clear case to answer.

Also enjoyed Patrick Smith's article this morning - the Four Aminos :D
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/four-aminos-were-mice-in-a-dubious-el-guapo-experiment/story-e6frfkp9-1226697372955

[Sedat]

Some more light reading from Baker & McKenzie:
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/bombers-injected-with-mystery-mexican-substance-20130814-2rx6m.html

I love how Baker & McKenzie are drip-feeding damning little tidbits every couple of weeks that drag Essendon further and further into the mire. And yet we hear more about the opinions of Spike McVeigh and other morons

And Caro's latest take:
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/admission-may-have-saved-hirds-mates-20130814-2rwxr.html

Hard to argue with this:
"It is so difficult to fathom such ludicrously bad governance where employees are concerned. Imagine if your child was given a vaccination at work only to find that they were injected with a drug purchased in Mexico and left behind by a patient? And then your child's workplace was unable to identify the drug.

And then no one still running that workplace was prepared to yet take public responsibility."

[Sedat]

A drug normally used for muscular-dystrophy patients, sourced from Mexico - I wonder if they were experimenting with myostatin manipulation?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/08 ... rts-doping

And I wonder if the stuff they were using was this?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mhp/myo-x.html

This stuff is pretty expensive, but if you're on a budget you can get it a little cheaper from this place....in Mexico:

http://www.supplementsplanet.com.mx/mhp ... ferta.html

I'm sure Baker and McKenzie will drip-feed a little more damning information in the coming weeks. But of course Little and Hird remain confident that their players did not take any PED's and this was all just a little bit of dodgy book-keeping :rolleyes:

[Twodogs]

If its illegal to possess them under the drugs, poisons and controlled substances act, and there is evidence that will stand up before the court beyond a reasonable doubt, then its quite possible.


Speaking of reasonable doubt. What is the standard of proof required in the AFL investigation? Is it balance of probabilities or beyond reasonable doubt?

[LongWait]

Thanks for your input into this discussion Sedat - the links to other sites have been great and I've really enjoyed your personal analysis of events. Kudos.

[westdog54]

Speaking of reasonable doubt. What is the standard of proof required in the AFL investigation? Is it balance of probabilities or beyond reasonable doubt?

That I cannot answer, but any appels through the Court system, irrespective of the level, are a civil proceeding and would thus be on Balance of Probabilities.

[Mofra]

First of all, to say that there is 'no evidence of illegal substances being used is not right. What is actually happening is that there is not enough evidence to pin the administering of an illegal substance to any one given player. As such you cannot issue an infraction.

Secondly, Jobe Watson has never, not once, admitted to taking AOD-9604 and I defy anyone to find a direct quote from Watson that says otherwise.

Thirdly, Essendon have brought the game into disrepute with their lax handling of a program involving highly experimental substances, and the astounding risks they placed their players under, for, what it turned out, was seemingly minimal benefit. The club must be held accountable for their own lack of control and the treatment of their players.
Point 1 - yet ;)

Poit 2 - agree

Point 3 - there are basic medical safeguards (ie Declaration of Helsinki 1964) that appear to have been completely ignored by the Bombers. It's not just the AFL & ASADA who have a case against the bombers once all the facts are known.
For example Worksafe are not pursuing them "at this time", and anyone involved with the regime may be in breach of medical practise standards.

It's nasty business - and the constant denials from Essendon fans are barely believable.

[westdog54]

Point 1 - yet ;)

Poit 2 - agree

Point 3 - there are basic medical safeguards (ie Declaration of Helsinki 1964) that appear to have been completely ignored by the Bombers. It's not just the AFL & ASADA who have a case against the bombers once all the facts are known.
For example Worksafe are not pursuing them "at this time", and anyone involved with the regime may be in breach of medical practise standards.

It's nasty business - and the constant denials from Essendon fans are barely believable.

The investigation is 'ongoing' after all. ;) I've no doubt that a whistleblower will emerge with the smoking gun at some point.

It just seems to get uglier and uglier as it goes along.

It makes me wonder just how much fairfax have known and for how long. I get the feeling that they have known about most of the stuff for quite some time and have let it get out bit by bit, all the while building the pressure on Essendon.

As someone who works in an organisation who's boss is borderline fanatical about workplace safety it beggars belief that there is as much watering down about this side of the argument as there has been.

[Remi Moses]

Very good article . They've been their usual obnoxious arrogant selves through this.

[bornadog]

Don't agree with Kennett on many things but I think he is on the right track here:

Boot out Bombers for 2014 if crisis is unresolved: Kennett (http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/boot-out-bombers-for-2014-if-crisis-is-unresolved-kennett-20130815-2ryb8.html)

If Essendon are going to take legal action then the AFL must act.

[Mofra]

It makes me wonder just how much fairfax have known and for how long. I get the feeling that they have known about most of the stuff for quite some time and have let it get out bit by bit, all the while building the pressure on Essendon.
Fairfax don't post everything they know - litigious nature of society these days. Their lawyers work as hard as their journos I'm told

[LostDoggy]

I wonder if Essendon's bark is worse than their bite — Are they merely claiming to be ready to fight the charges, hoping that the AFL will come to them pleading to settle and save the finals series?

[Remi Moses]

Robbo doesn't want the AFL commission to sit on the hearing.
Robbo's choice would be
Madden, Watson, Vanderhaar, Sheedy and Terry Daniher to sit in on the hearing.

[Twodogs]

I wonder if Essendon's bark is worse than their bite — Are they merely claiming to be ready to fight the charges, hoping that the AFL will come to them pleading to settle and save the finals series?


I agree with Robbo. The AFL are to conflicted to judge . Put them in front of a proper judiciary I say.

[westdog54]

I agree with Robbo. The AFL are to conflicted to judge . Put them in front of a proper judiciary I say.

So who chooses the judiciary?

We could go around in circles forever on this.

The reality is the AFL Commission was brought in for matters like this. By all means ask Demetriou to step aside from the proceedings, but I fail to see how the rest of the Commission is conflicted.

[Hotdog60]

I agree with Robbo. The AFL are to conflicted to judge . Put them in front of a proper judiciary I say.

About the only way to do that would be to go to another country.

[Ghost Dog]

Hotchpotch detrimental to Bombers


Undoubtedly, the Essendon FC drugs scandal has left Essendon red-faced, if not with proverbial blood on its hands. This sorry tale will be dissected, analysed and critiqued for years to come by footy fans at the pub to the professionals charged with making authoritative determinations on the culpability of involved parties. And presumably, greater clarity of detail will prevail with time.
But what is already patently apparent is that this is a story of an organisation failing to properly address the potential pitfalls of a corporate structure.
If a football club chooses to exist as a corporate entity, then the individuals who make up that corporation need to appreciate the legal and regulatory framework in which they operate. For instance, one would think it is of utmost importance to ensure that, within a corporation, employed professionals do not encroach on matters that are not within their respective area of expertise. As a case in point, in the event that it is proven so, what would have warranted James Hird having any involvement in a supplements program couched in advanced science? He does not profess to be doctor nor scientist.

That task should have remained in the exclusive domain of the club doctor and any other employed professionals proficient in the relevant practice. Admittedly, this may not have averted a similarly worrying outcome at Essendon FC, in which young men may have been injected with unknown substances, possibly unknowingly. But at least any blameworthiness, from a non-player perspective, would be more tightly contained, and lie only with the involved doctors and club scientists.

Rather, the administering of drugs appears to have been the result of a hotchpotch collaborative approach, involving football club employees from across the board. As a result, it has proven impossible to impugn only a few individuals, and instead, the damage to the corporation, direct and collateral, has been widespread and largely indiscriminate. The confusion, and implied blameworthiness has probably done more damage than the actual formal consequences ever will.

We can all learn a lesson from these events: Individuals who work within a corporate environment need to properly appreciate that they still have a personal responsibility to operate within applicable rules and laws, as well as contribute to the corporation's overall compliance. Most likely there were individuals at Essendon who had greater personal culpability than others, but a failure to properly compartmentalise roles, in conjunction with weak overall governance, has seen many tarred with the same brush, and the reputation of Essendon enter free-fall.

Publicly documented examples of corporate failure come to light occasionally, and often seem so far-fetched that they evoke the ''that would never happen to me'' response. But the reality is all individuals who belong to a corporation need to be aware that there may come a time when their system is questioned with a view to establishing personal liability. Participate in your corporation accordingly.
Tom McCarthy is a business adviser and former commercial lawyer.


In essence a boys club that decided the rules needed to be pushed to the line of ethical reasonableness.
The question I have is where the hell was the player welfare team at Essendon? I can tell you Brett Goodes or the other staff at Whitten Oval would never stand for it. I've met some of the support staff at the Bulldogs more than once and I'm fairly confident they wouldn't stand for anything like that at our club.


From:

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/corporate-hotchpotch-detrimental-to-bombers-20130815-2rz7j.html

[Twodogs]

So who chooses the judiciary?

We could go around in circles forever on this.

The reality is the AFL Commission was brought in for matters like this. By all means ask Demetriou to step aside from the proceedings, but I fail to see how the rest of the Commission is conflicted.


Not Judiciary. Tribunal would have been a better word. I mean a proper court. It would take at least 3 rooms full of suits to decide which court.

[westdog54]

Not Judiciary. Tribunal would have been a better word. I mean a proper court. It would take at least 3 rooms full of suits to decide which court.

The way I see it, the AFL Commission is best placed body to arbitrate this for the good of the game.

If Essendon have concerns about the fairness or legality of the result, let them take it throught the Court System.

But I see no point in going round and round in circles trying to select a specially designed tribunal for this one issue, irrespective of how involved it is.

[LongWait]

In essence a boys club that decided the rules needed to be pushed to the line of ethical reasonableness.
The question I have is where the hell was the player welfare team at Essendon? I can tell you Brett Goodes or the other staff at Whitten Oval would never stand for it. I've met some of the support staff at the Bulldogs more than once and I'm fairly confident they wouldn't stand for anything like that at our club.


From:

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/corporate-hotchpotch-detrimental-to-bombers-20130815-2rz7j.html

The positioning of our stand alone VFL side positions our club at polar opposites to Essendon:

"....A unique ‘knowledge exchange’ relationship, understood to be an AFL first, will be central to the partnership aimed at providing a competitive edge to the Dogs while building best practice research, education and training opportunities for Victoria University students.

Underpinning the relationship will be science expertise and capability to help athletes achieve improvements in an ethical, moral and responsible manner."

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2013-08-16/footscray-bulldogs-to-play-at-victoria-university-whitten-oval-

[Remi Moses]

ill advised seems to be the bomber way .
Jimmsy at the start . Jobe "On the Couch".
How incredible nothing unhealthy to the players, yet we don't know what we gave them!!
Just plain Bizarre

[LostDoggy]

So who chooses the judiciary?

We could go around in circles forever on this.

The reality is the AFL Commission was brought in for matters like this. By all means ask Demetriou to step aside from the proceedings, but I fail to see how the rest of the Commission is conflicted.

Isn't one of the commissioners on Evans' company's board?

[ReLoad]

All I know is that I live around the corner form Windy Hill and im sick to death of the bazillion Muppet media trucks blocking half the road up!

throw the book at 'em and move on, please?

[Throughandthrough]

All I know is that I live around the corner form Windy Hill and im sick to death of the bazillion Muppet media trucks blocking half the road up!

throw the book at 'em and move on, please?


Is it true thry went to your house for secret injections? I'd deny that rumour pretty quickly if i was you.

[Remi Moses]

Interesting that Essendon wanted a retraction and apology from Fairfax on the Mexico story.
Turns out the story rings true. Maybe Fairfax should get an apology and a retraction from Essendon.
Enough Essendon Enough

[LostDoggy]

If Essendon are guilty, AND they drag this through the courts, AND none of the mud they throw at AFL House sticks, surely the penalty for disrepute just builds and builds? I feel two draftless years for anyone who enjoys black and red airplanes coming along.....

[LostDoggy]

AOD-9604 has been declared a Not Prohibited substance.

[comrade]

Bombers will come out of this with barely a scratch. The AFL has botched this one badly.

Demetriou's position is untenable, IMO.

[The Pie Man]

Bombers will come out of this with barely a scratch. The AFL has botched this one badly.

Demetriou's position is untenable, IMO.

Agreed - assuming the revelations on 360 are true, so much of this has been needlessly played out. Infuriating really, and Demetriou will have to go

[jeemak]

AOD-9604 has been declared a Not Prohibited substance.

Ketchup?

[LostDoggy]

Ketchup?

Was just AFL 360, but sounds very conclusive.

[Dry Rot]

Not over yet. Anyone see the item on NRL team Cronulla on 7.30 tonight?

Different team, but interesting to see how Dank went about things. The financial off book stuff was interesting.

[Maddog37]

Seemed cut and dried re the 360 segment and Essendon being mistreated by the AFL.

That being the case though, why the offsite injections and dodgy book work not to mention the Essendon press conference with no club parafanalia in sight?

[chef]

What a stuff up.

[jeemak]

Seemed cut and dried re the 360 segment and Essendon being mistreated by the AFL.

That being the case though, why the offsite injections and dodgy book work not to mention the Essendon press conference with no club parafanalia in sight?

For those of us who missed the segment, any key points?

[Maddog37]

My reading was that the AFL has known all along that AOD 9604 was not banned by ASADA and that Edon were told this as well. The guy that instructed Edon on its use as an adviser was provided by the AFL themselves. Dank apparently has legitimate documentation attesting to this.

[jeemak]

So what of the obvious governance issues at the club, and the fact AOD 9604 isn't the only dubious substance purported to have been used on the playing group?

What has ASADA got to do with anything if WADA stick to their guns that AOD 9604 is and was banned?

[comrade]

So what of the obvious governance issues at the club, and the fact AOD 9604 isn't the only dubious substance purported to have been used on the playing group?

What has ASADA got to do with anything if WADA stick to their guns that AOD 9604 is and was banned?

From the Bombers perspective, they got the all clear on AOD9604 from the Australian governing body. Why would they go any further? Right now, it looks like ASADA and the AFL botched it up and have undertaken an almighty arse-covering expedition.

Which is standard operating procedure for Andrew Demetriou and his cronies.

[KT31]

Just watching AFL 360, if this is true, any way you look at it what a major f#$@ up.
Someones head will have to roll, hoping its Vlad's.
Litigation cases are now just a formality.

[Topdog]

AOD is still banned under S0 clarification. It is not considered fit for human consumption and therefore illegal under ASADA/WADA code

[comrade]

AOD is still banned under S0 clarification. It is not considered fit for human consumption and therefore illegal under ASADA/WADA code

It may be now but according to Gerard Whateley, Essendon and the AFL were advised by ASADA that fell under S2 clarification.

[The Adelaide Connection]

It may be now but according to Gerard Whateley, Essendon and the AFL were advised by ASADA that fell under S2 clarification.

Absolutely nothing has changed, a paid employee of the EFC has come out and said he was "told" that allegedly anyone could hammer down AOD with their corn flakes and it would be okay.

There was no revelation, it was another smokescreen thrown out by Essendon to divert attention away from the horrendous governance issues and duty of care violations. It certainly seems to have worked to a degree, convincing Whately even though the statements they were showing on 360 repeatedly stated that:

"Asada have said it was not on the s2 category, which it wasn't, but at no point advised it was not on the s0 category" and he agreed he had no reason to contend with that evidence. So what has changed? Nothing. A different bloke said what Essendon have been saying all along.

No one has provided any conclusive proof, written or otherwise, that absolves EFC giving a substance that has been banned by WADA since at least 2011 under the S0 category. Even if they do, AOD has become just a small part of the ridiculous things they were doing.

[The Adelaide Connection]

I can't wait for this to end. They might actually talk about footy on footy shows and topics like "how good are the Dogs now".

[westdog54]

Absolutely nothing has changed, a paid employee of the EFC has come out and said he was "told" that allegedly anyone could hammer down AOD with their corn flakes and it would be okay.

There was no revelation, it was another smokescreen thrown out by Essendon to divert attention away from the horrendous governance issues and duty of care violations. It certainly seems to have worked to a degree, convincing Whately even though the statements they were showing on 360 repeatedly stated that:

"Asada have said it was not on the s2 category, which it wasn't, but at no point advised it was not on the s0 category" and he agreed he had no reason to contend with that evidence. So what has changed? Nothing. A different bloke said what Essendon have been saying all along.

No one has provided any conclusive proof, written or otherwise, that absolves EFC giving a substance that has been banned by WADA since at least 2011 under the S0 category. Even if they do, AOD has become just a small part of the ridiculous things they were doing.

Its just another case of how the debate on this matter is being contaminated with half-truths and smokescreens.

Nothing has changed from the start of the week.

Essendon are turning the league into a mockery. And for what? On their current form they'll be out of the finals in straight sets.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Its just another case of how the debate on this matter is being contaminated with half-truths and smokescreens.

Nothing has changed from the start of the week.

Essendon are turning the league into a mockery. And for what? On their current form they'll be out of the finals in straight sets.

I hope they draw Richmond and they are heavily outnumbered by 70,000 tail wagging tigers fans that snap up tickets and boo their every move (and thump them, and then boo them some more).

[ledge]

Essendon should use it's brains and except it was wrong, lose all it's points this year be aide it means nothing they are shot, by stretching it out means they will probably be deducted points next year and this will hurt more than losing points this year .

[westdog54]

Essendon should use it's brains and except it was wrong, lose all it's points this year be aide it means nothing they are shot, by stretching it out means they will probably be deducted points next year and this will hurt more than losing points this year .

Have been saying this for a month or so now.

[chef]

AOD is still banned under S0 clarification. It is not considered fit for human consumption and therefore illegal under ASADA/WADA code

Not at the time Essendon took it apparently.

[westdog54]

Not at the time Essendon took it apparently.

The S0 Classification has always been there.

Its not ASADA's fault if Essendon asked them the wrong question.

[chef]

The S0 Classification has always been there.

Its not ASADA's fault if Essendon asked them the wrong question.

But they didn't ask the wrong question did they?

Seems asada stuffed up, it was under S2 at the time Essendon took it.

[A Ford]

Correct me if wrong but according to The Age reports the question was asked in Feb 2013 and not in 2012 when they allegedly took the stuff.

Also the way it reads is he said she said.
Garnham of the afl asked asada.
Probably a bombers fan ;)

[westdog54]

But they didn't ask the wrong question did they?

Seems asada stuffed up, it was under S2 at the time Essendon took it.

Source? Link?

[chef]

Source? Link?

Can't link on my phone but there's an article on the age website. Plus what they were saying on 360.

[Eastdog]

Here is the article from the Age about it.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/asada-told-afl-drug-not-banned-20130820-2s9lh.html

[jeemak]

Correct me if wrong but according to The Age reports the question was asked in Feb 2013 and not in 2012 when they allegedly took the stuff.

Also the way it reads is he said she said.
Garnham of the afl asked asada.
Probably a bombers fan ;)

Correct, as shown in the link ED provided.

WADA has stated the substance is prohibited, and always has been prohibited.

[Go_Dogs]

This whole saga is starting to give me a headache....

Really looking forward to some clarity and final determinations because at the moment it's just a bunch of things being pushed out to further muddy the waters and make it very hard to get a read on which way it's going to end.

[The Pie Man]

That ASADA's advice doesn't mirror WADA's is just unforgivable.

I can't see how Essendon can be punished for AOD9604 use when they were directed to their local body (ASADA) who it seems have monumentally botched this up.

[Eastdog]

It certainly changes the whole thing a bit if ASADA says it was not a prohibited substance.

[Ozza]

If ASADA had ok'd AOD9604 to Essendon - why would they put their hands up in February and say 'We might have done something wrong - you should investigate us".

AOD9604 is not the issue. Its the other substances which have been covered up.

It would be incredibly naive to think that AOD9604 is the only supplement Essendon players have had injected into them.

[jeemak]

Tim Watson lashing out at the media outlets hysterically reporting on the substances issue, claiming they should come clean with what they know about the substances consumed by players to allay fears of players, their families etc.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/tim-watson-slams-afl-media-over-supplements-crisis-20130821-2sa27.html

Within this article is detail on WADA's position on AOD 9604. Kevin Bartlett calling for the AFL to clarify the position on that particular substance is further demonstration of the ignorance of the populist commentators lending opinion on this issue. The AFL has nothing to do with determining if substances are legal, or not.

The fact Watson is pleading for the media to come clean on these substances points the finger fairly and squarely at the Essendon FC for its poor governance in incompetence. If those running the club had their shit together, they'd be able to allay the fears of Watson and other parents of players. But they can't.

This is what the AFL will have to punish the Essendon FC and those managing it for. The fact they don't know what the bloody hell was happening to the players in 2011 and 2012 is the problem the AFL has to deal with. WADA and ASADA will work out the issues surrounding the legality of the substances.

[Ghost Dog]

Well said Jeemak. And when you have wives of players stressing out over possible congenital birth defects, it certainly puts things to a harsh perspective; all footy clubs need to keep accurate records of these powerful chemicals.

[Mofra]

The fact Watson is pleading for the media to come clean on these substances points the finger fairly and squarely at the Essendon FC for its poor governance in incompetence. If those running the club had their shit together, they'd be able to allay the fears of Watson and other parents of players. But they can't.
I found this really odd.

He's an Essendon club legend, and last night he met with the club. Why is he angry witht he AFL when Essendon can't provide him with the answers?

[bornadog]

I found this really odd.

He's an Essendon club legend, and last night he met with the club. Why is he angry witht he AFL when Essendon can't provide him with the answers?

All the parents were at the club being briefed.

[Scraggers]

AFL have just released the charges brought against Essendon to the public

LINK (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-08-21/afl-reveals-charges)

It looks as though everyone is going on the front foot now !!

[ledge]

They are gone I can't see a way out of this for them and how certain people at the club could still be there. The AFL meeting with all club presidents tells me something huge is about to happen.
What the penalties will be I have no idea and don't know how the penalties would be big enough to make up for the crime.

[Throughandthrough]

http://www.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/AFL/Files/EssendonFC-notice-of-charges.pdf

[Eastdog]

They are gone I can't see a way out of this for them and how certain people at the club could still be there. The AFL meeting with all club presidents tells me something huge is about to happen.
What the penalties will be I have no idea and don't know how the penalties would be big enough to make up for the crime.

Essendon will still be playing finals as far as we know but yeah this whole ASDA investigation just keeps continuing and hasn't come to a conclusion. I'm relieved that this is not our club that is going through this saga.

[westdog54]

http://www.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/AFL/Files/EssendonFC-notice-of-charges.pdf

Just read it from start to finish.

The allegations are damning but in this instance I firmly believe that the individuals, particularly Hird and Corcoran, should be the ones who bear the brunt of the sanctions.

Reid and Thompson's issue is more of a failure to do due diligence and put in adequate oversight, whereas Hird and Corcoran were beyond negligent in their dealings with this affair.

Without a smoking gun as far as what the players have and haven't received I'm not sure what, if any, sanctions the club/players will wear.

[Ozza]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dr-bruce-reid-wrote-to-hird-about-supplements-problems-20130821-2sasc.html

Do yourselves a favour and read Doc Reid's letter to Hird/Hamilton in Jan 2012.

[Mofra]

Read the report, is much much harsher than I expected, I guess Essendon's PR machine softening things up hasn't helped with the AFL.

They are in diabolical trouble

[Throughandthrough]

If ONLY Hird had admitted "my bad, sorry i didnt realise" 4 months ago.

[ledge]

I can't believe the pull Hird has at this club he has accepted full responsibility but everyone else is going , why hasn't the president actually looked at him and said you go???

[bulldogtragic]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dr-bruce-reid-wrote-to-hird-about-supplements-problems-20130821-2sasc.html

Do yourselves a favour and read Doc Reid's letter to Hird/Hamilton in Jan 2012.
Geez-sus-fn-Christ.

Reid wants to clear his name, and as he should, putting that in writing in 2012 and nothing happened...

Hird should resign immediately. This is damning in the extreme. EXTREME!

[ReLoad]

Even if 10% of those charges by the AFL are proven, they deserve some very, very severe penalties.

Essendon now need to man up, and admit they made mistakes and cop it on the chin, or else not only will this drag on for years, but the sanctions they are going to face are huge.

The AFL's legal bill on this will be un-budgeted millions, and there is no way the other club presidents will want to miss out on a dividend because of it.

So, the question is what is a punishment that serves the crime?

[LostDoggy]

AOD's prohibition status doesn't even matter in the scheme of things looking at the charges.
Hird and Corcoran should be straight banned from the industry. Reid and Thompson slightly less serious punishments and the club should be stripped of draft picks, points and receive a huge fine.

[Throughandthrough]

So, the question is what is a punishment that serves the crime?


Hird has to tell us what the side effect he suffered was. Until he does, i'm assuming brewers droop.

[westdog54]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dr-bruce-reid-wrote-to-hird-about-supplements-problems-20130821-2sasc.html

Do yourselves a favour and read Doc Reid's letter to Hird/Hamilton in Jan 2012.

It is in the Charges, word for word.

I was gobsmacked reading it.

I don't think James Hird or Danny Corcoran will ever work in football again after this. I'm not even sure Hird will be able to fall back on the management business he had going prior to returning to the club. His reputation will be in tatters.

[Greystache]

Hird has to tell us what the side effect he suffered was. Until he does, i'm assuming brewers droop.

I'm willing to bet it was the exact opposite side effect. Melanotan II is is a cure for such issues.

[bornadog]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dr-bruce-reid-wrote-to-hird-about-supplements-problems-20130821-2sasc.html

Do yourselves a favour and read Doc Reid's letter to Hird/Hamilton in Jan 2012.

Surely gawn

[The Pie Man]

AFL 360 should be intriguing viewing this evening.
I was astonished by their AOD revelation last night - today has clearly overshadowed this.

[bornadog]

Press conference just finished, both Hird and Little keep saying they have done nothing wrong and AOD964 isnot (or wasn't a banned substance) and that the AFL knew in Feb 2013, Essendon players were taking it and the AFL said nothing till now.

[bornadog]

Charge Sheet from AFL (http://www.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/AFL/Files/EssendonFC-notice-of-charges.pdf)

Page 30 contains this:


In late May 2012 Dank discovered that the Thymosin he had been providing the players (Thymosin Beta-4) was in fact prohibited.

[Remi Moses]

Hird and Little went on about how the AFL say on the news that AOD wasn't a bad substance.
One might say its also not approved for human use.
You'd also say that there are other substances at play here also.
Essendon conveniently forget to fill in the blanks in their flimsy defense.

[LostDoggy]

Hird has to tell us what the side effect he suffered was. Until he does, i'm assuming brewers droop.

I am of the understanding it was enlargement of the auricles

[anfo27]

Had a read of Dr Reid' letter & know wonder the bombers couldn't find it. How bloody convenient that letter went missing!!! Essendon Football Club is a disgrace.

[bulldogsman]

Charge Sheet from AFL (http://www.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/AFL/Files/EssendonFC-notice-of-charges.pdf)

Page 30 contains this:

I hope they ban all 38 players. I still can't believe how stupid they were getting themselves injected and not knowing what it really was. Why wouldn't you find out?

[Throughandthrough]

I'm not a lawyer, but I really can't understand what Essendon are trying to archive by going on he attack back. How could it possibly help? Oh and lol at Hird playing the victim

[ReLoad]

I think the bombers are in real danger of being de-registered.

[SonofScray]

Throw them out.

[Hotdog60]

If all the clubs want them delisted and the AFL agree do they have a legal leg to stand on. It maybe cheaper on the lawyers then fighting it out with Essendon.

[LostDoggy]

Unbelievable. Reading the charge sheet now.

My uninformed non-lawyer/non-medical professional take on it:


Reid's loyalty to Essendon has really cost him here.
Hird, Corcoran both were as “wilfully ignorant” as you can get.
They didn't even follow their own protocols on the drug use.
They even criticised their own staff member, Benita Lalor, for having reservations. Basically insulted her intelligence.
Robinson will never work again.
Hird is FUBAR.
Essendon will never recover from this. Yeah, they might keep playing footy, but this will hang on their heads forever. White Sox-style.

[Throughandthrough]

Thinking further, maybe Hird has received legal opinion that admitting guilt will leave him more open to getting sued by aggrieved players

[GVGjr]

There is still a lot more to play out but I still believe that Essendon will need someone at the AFL to make a major stuff up for them to escape.

Reids email will work against them as it clearly highlights a lack of duty of care.

[Twodogs]

I can't believe the pull Hird has at this club he has accepted full responsibility but everyone else is going , why hasn't the president actually looked at him and said you go???


One tried to stare the mad bastard down a few weeks ago. Now they got a new president.

[Ghost Dog]

The revised charges here. This was what the AFL and EFC agreed on in terms of breaches.
Even on the basis of what EFC agreed to, they have to be given a whack.

http://www.essendonfc.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/Essendon/Club%20HQ/Revised%20statement%20of%20grounds.pdf

[LostDoggy]

Just listened to Mark Robinson on AFL360. Can't believe what a essendon apologist he is - credibility left at the door!

[Rocket Science]

One curiosity within the notice of charges...

124. During the relevant period, the Club caused the following substances to be administered to players at the Club:

(a) Actovegin;
(b) unspecified amino acids
(c) unspecified multi-vitamins;
(d) AOD-9604 creams;
(e) AOD-9604 injections;
(f) Cerebrolysin;
(g) Colostrum;
(h) censored
(i) Lactaway;
(j) Lube-all-plus;
(k) Melatonin;
(l) Melanotan II;
(m) TA-65;
(n) Thymosin Beta 4;
(o) Traumeel; and
(p) Tribulus.

...which at least suggests a modicum of foresight in that they knew, at some stage or another, they'd be *!*!*!*!ed.

[westdog54]

Just listened to Mark Robinson on AFL360. Can't believe what a essendon apologist he is - credibility left at the door!

He's been pshing James Hird's case from day one, and then has the hide in today's Herald sun to talk about the issue being hijacked by agendas.

Spare me:rolleyes:

[Scraggers]

Unbelievable. Reading the charge sheet now.

My uninformed non-lawyer/non-medical professional take on it:


Reid's loyalty to Essendon has really cost him here.
Hird, Corcoran both were as “wilfully ignorant” as you can get.
They didn't even follow their own protocols on the drug use.
They even criticised their own staff member, Benita Lalor, for having reservations. Basically insulted her intelligence.
Robinson will never work again.
Hird is FUBAR.
Essendon will never recover from this. Yeah, they might keep playing footy, but this will hang on their heads forever. White Sox-style.


I had made the same analogy. Walking around Melbourne last week, every time I saw an Essendon scarf, beanie, hat etc. all I could think was cheat. They have marked for life.

[Remi Moses]

Essendon white Sox . Has a nice ring to it!!
Hird playing the victim ( as per usual)

[Raw Toast]

Reading the charge sheet confirmed a suspicion I'd had for awhile. The murkiness around
AOD-9604 is a huge smokescreen, the issue lies with other substances, especially Thymosin Beta-4.

In essence, the evidence suggests Danks only realised midway through last year that it was prohibited under the general 'not classified for use' catch-all. He then appears to try cover that up by getting the pharmacist to sign a document from January of that year (in June!).

In other words, Essendon players seem pretty clearly to have been given a prohibited substance that they never asked anyone about (ASADA or anyone else in a regulatory capacity) and didn't get Reid to sign off on either.

Essendon's only hope is that it wasn't Thymosin Beta-4 but rather another Thymosin. But if you read the Appendix A bit at the end seems extremely likely to have been the Beta-4 variety.


Bombers will come out of this with barely a scratch. The AFL has botched this one badly.

Demetriou's position is untenable, IMO.

Things change quickly don't they...

Of course, Hird and Little staked their rebuttal today on (the now very disputed claims around) AOD-9604 as well as bizarre claims of an ambush - most of the time they have been asking the AFL to be open with their claims, now they want them to go back to innuendo.

[Scraggers]

Not sure if this has been said early ... But what is the collective noun of a group of cheats ... A Hird !! :)

[jeemak]

Hird to sue the AFL:

http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/james-hird-to-sue-over-afl-ambush-20130821-2sbrw.html

[LostDoggy]

Tim Lane on channel 7 stating after all of this stuff is out that the only likely solution for a peaceful resolution is if the AFL stands Andrew Demitriou down....??

Um

#I'maDelusionalIdiotWithMoreLoyaltyThanCommonSence

#WTHTimRUSerious???

[jeemak]

Tim Lane's a Carlton man.

[LostDoggy]

Tim Lane's a Carlton man.

Do-over Tim Watson

[jeemak]

Do-over Tim Watson

Tim Watson would be best served keeping his mouth shut.

[ledge]

Why go to Tim Watson if course he will stick up for the club his view will be as biased as Hirds

[bornadog]

Hird to sue the AFL:

http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/james-hird-to-sue-over-afl-ambush-20130821-2sbrw.html

This is out of control.

[Dry Rot]

Throw them out.

Strongly disagree.

They should be just be relocated to Tassie, and start again as the Hobart Bombers.

However, they should reconsider the team song "See the Bombers fly up, up..."

[Dry Rot]

Had a read of Dr Reid' letter & know wonder the bombers couldn't find it. How bloody convenient that letter went missing!!! Essendon Football Club is a disgrace.

And Hird denies he received it.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dr-bruce-reid-wrote-to-hird-about-supplements-problems-20130821-2sasc.html

[bornadog]

Not sure if this has been said early ... But what is the collective noun of a group of cheats ... A Hird !! :)

Very funny

[SonofScray]

Strongly disagree.

They should be just be relocated to Tassie, and start again as the Hobart Bombers.

However, they should reconsider the team song "See the Bombers fly up, up..."

This is also acceptable in my view. Deadly serious. Relocate the franchise. Start again.

I tweeted today that the most striking aspect of the charges was the commentary on Thymosin Beta 4 and the dodgy back dating etc. That is enough for me, how they'll spin that I cannot fathom. Everything else seems rather paltry in comparison if we are waxing about the issue from a "drug cheats" lens. Thats beyond cynical, its sinister.

The non prescribed drugs stuff, from a duty of care perspective is atrocious. Lyon on FootyClassified was spot on. I'd walk.

[Dry Rot]

This is also acceptable in my view. Deadly serious. Relocate the franchise. Start again.



How do you see their new team song?

[SonofScray]

How do you see their new team song?

To the tune of "Its a Grand Old Team to Play For"

Sure it's a brand new team to play for,
Sure it's a grand old team disgraced,
When you read its history,
It's enough to make your heart grow sad,
God bless them.

We don't care what the other teams say
What the hell do we care,
Because we only know what the Golden Boy says so,
So The Bombers - Hobart we'll be there.

[Dry Rot]

To the tune of "Its a Grand Old Team to Play For"

Sure it's a brand new team to play for,
Sure it's a grand old team disgraced,
When you read its history,
It's enough to make your heart grow sad,
God bless them.

We don't care what the other teams say
What the hell do we care,
Because we only know what the Golden Boy says so,
So The Bombers - Hobart we'll be there.

Ha Ha very good. :D

But I'm not sure the rumoured new #1 ticket holder Lance Armstrong is the right way to go.

At least the got the right guy for the new President

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/04/19/1226041/616090-tony-mokbel.jpg

[Mofra]

The revised charges here. This was what the AFL and EFC agreed on in terms of breaches.
Even on the basis of what EFC agreed to, they have to be given a whack.

http://www.essendonfc.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/Essendon/Club%20HQ/Revised%20statement%20of%20grounds.pdf
Even on the basis of what they've agreed to, WADA will have to place their normal cane back in the rack and unlock the big stick.
"Unsure" of whether players have been injected with banned substances gives them enough ammunition. Players have been banned for 2 years because of coaches having possession of PEDs - their "sports scientist" possessing PEDs is almost enough by itself.

[Twodogs]

Ha Ha very good. :D

But I'm not sure the rumoured new #1 ticket holder Lance Armstrong is the right way to go.

At least the got the right guy for the new President

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/04/19/1226041/616090-tony-mokbel.jpg

Heh! Mick would negotiate a suitable settlement.

[Sedat]

Did anybody hear the mother of a current Essendon player on MMM this morning? Powerful stuff (click on the audio link below the video link):
http://www.triplem.com.au/melbourne/sport/afl/news/2013/8/aod-9604-not-prohibited-says-gerard-whateley-on-fox-footy-afl-360/

This club is rotten to the core, and they have resorted to bringing in the heavy legal artillery simply to argue around the fringes of technicalities in a forlorn attempt to weasel out of their self-inflicted predicament. The deal that the AFL allegedly offered to them was generous in the extreme given their situation and alleged behaviour, and yet they had the arrogance and temerity to knock it back and fight fire with fire - only problem is they are using pop guns against the AFL's cannons (and ADASA/WADA have atomic bombs waiting in the wings for the next round).

The AFL hasn't even had to revert to the ASADA interim report to lay these damning charges, let alone the final ASADA report when it is eventually finished - the complete lack of care for their players and disregard for proper procedures is patently obvious, and it is actually quite sad to see that narcissist Hird try and defend his name against such an obvious gross dereliction of duty and care. The AFL has barely uncovered a fraction of the real story - just wait until the final report is completed, and there are upwards of 38 players and player managers suing the club while they spend the next 2 years on the sidelines. The words 'Systematic Doping' might well be linked to this club forever and a day.

Media cheerleaders like Robbo, Connolly, McVitamins, Matthews, Darcy and numerous others should also be embarrassed with themselves - the health of the game is always far more important than personal interests of a select few.

Listening to that poor distraught mother this morning, Essendon's priorities (and that of their blind supporters) have been completely lost in trying to protect the Queen Bee. It will cost them 2 years out of the competition at best if they continue this fight.

[Dry Rot]

Heh! Mick would negotiate a suitable settlement.

That's Mr Mokbel. Just the man you need to get you some "supplements" from overseas.

[Dry Rot]

Did anybody hear the mother of a current Essendon player on MMM this morning? Powerful stuff (click on the audio link below the video link):
http://www.triplem.com.au/melbourne/sport/afl/news/2013/8/aod-9604-not-prohibited-says-gerard-whateley-on-fox-footy-afl-360/

.

Must hear interview. Compelling.

Eddie will take that along to the meeting of the club presidents today, and Essendon are goneski.

[Dry Rot]

BTW, one of the things they gave the players promotes cancer

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/95/22/1674.full

http://www.google.com.au/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=oncology+thymosin+metastasis+bibliography&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=nV8VUu3KC-SRiQfZ_oGIBg

[Twodogs]

That's Mr Mokbel. Just the man you need to get you some "supplements" from overseas.


My bad mate. You're quite right.

[Topdog]

My mate is Essendon and Hird through and through, has defended him and the club so strongly over the whole thing. After hearing the interview this morning this is what he wrote.


Yep.

Makes you remember that the most it world be effecting right now is the players. You can forget that sometimes.

I heard it n thought a little differently about Hird n his position at the club.

You probably have to know the bloke to realise how big a change that is. This phone call is a game changer. Better hope Eddie and co weren't fooled by an elaborate hoax

[LostDoggy]

Did anybody hear the mother of a current Essendon player on MMM this morning? Powerful stuff (click on the audio link below the video link):
http://www.triplem.com.au/melbourne/sport/afl/news/2013/8/aod-9604-not-prohibited-says-gerard-whateley-on-fox-footy-afl-360/

This club is rotten to the core, and they have resorted to bringing in the heavy legal artillery simply to argue around the fringes of technicalities in a forlorn attempt to weasel out of their self-inflicted predicament. The deal that the AFL allegedly offered to them was generous in the extreme given their situation and alleged behaviour, and yet they had the arrogance and temerity to knock it back and fight fire with fire - only problem is they are using pop guns against the AFL's cannons (and ADASA/WADA have atomic bombs waiting in the wings for the next round).

The AFL hasn't even had to revert to the ASADA interim report to lay these damning charges, let alone the final ASADA report when it is eventually finished - the complete lack of care for their players and disregard for proper procedures is patently obvious, and it is actually quite sad to see that narcissist Hird try and defend his name against such an obvious gross dereliction of duty and care. The AFL has barely uncovered a fraction of the real story - just wait until the final report is completed, and there are upwards of 38 players and player managers suing the club while they spend the next 2 years on the sidelines. The words 'Systematic Doping' might well be linked to this club forever and a day.

Media cheerleaders like Robbo, Connolly, McVitamins, Matthews, Darcy and numerous others should also be embarrassed with themselves - the health of the game is always far more important than personal interests of a select few.

Listening to that poor distraught mother this morning, Essendon's priorities (and that of their blind supporters) have been completely lost in trying to protect the Queen Bee. It will cost them 2 years out of the competition at best if they continue this fight.
I hope it was a real Essendon players mother, sounded fair dinkum to me. She has really hit the nail on the head. Everything has been all about Essendon Hird and Co, what about the players and their familes.

[bulldogtragic]

Must hear interview. Compelling.

Eddie will take that along to the meeting of the club presidents today, and Essendon are goneski.
I got choked up listening to that.

I think it's called 'the human side'.

[Greystache]

You probably have to know the bloke to realise how big a change that is. This phone call is a game changer. Better hope Eddie and co weren't fooled by an elaborate hoax

My wife is fanatical Essendon and she said last night she just wishes they would get it all over with and ban the club from competition for 2 years and she'll follow the Bulldogs for a while. The way Hird is carrying on makes her sorry to barrack for them. That's a huge reversal.

The rest of her family are still adamant however they won't renew their AFL memberships (which they've had for 21 years) unless Demetriou resigns due to the way he's tried to frame Essendon. I guess you can't convince everyone.

[whythelongface]

I got choked up listening to that.

I think it's called 'the human side'.

Exactly and that is what is getting lost in this whole debacle. What impact is all this having on the welfare of the players? Essendon FC have (potentially) played russian roulette with their players in administering these substances.

That interview is powerful in the message that it delivers to Essendon.

[KT31]

Did anybody hear the mother of a current Essendon player on MMM this morning? Powerful stuff (click on the audio link below the video link):
http://www.triplem.com.au/melbourne/sport/afl/news/2013/8/aod-9604-not-prohibited-says-gerard-whateley-on-fox-footy-afl-360/

This club is rotten to the core, and they have resorted to bringing in the heavy legal artillery simply to argue around the fringes of technicalities in a forlorn attempt to weasel out of their self-inflicted predicament. The deal that the AFL allegedly offered to them was generous in the extreme given their situation and alleged behaviour, and yet they had the arrogance and temerity to knock it back and fight fire with fire - only problem is they are using pop guns against the AFL's cannons (and ADASA/WADA have atomic bombs waiting in the wings for the next round).

The AFL hasn't even had to revert to the ASADA interim report to lay these damning charges, let alone the final ASADA report when it is eventually finished - the complete lack of care for their players and disregard for proper procedures is patently obvious, and it is actually quite sad to see that narcissist Hird try and defend his name against such an obvious gross dereliction of duty and care. The AFL has barely uncovered a fraction of the real story - just wait until the final report is completed, and there are upwards of 38 players and player managers suing the club while they spend the next 2 years on the sidelines. The words 'Systematic Doping' might well be linked to this club forever and a day.

Media cheerleaders like Robbo, Connolly, McVitamins, Matthews, Darcy and numerous others should also be embarrassed with themselves - the health of the game is always far more important than personal interests of a select few.

Listening to that poor distraught mother this morning, Essendon's priorities (and that of their blind supporters) have been completely lost in trying to protect the Queen Bee. It will cost them 2 years out of the competition at best if they continue this fight.

Thank you for posting that Sedat, very heartfelt from an alleged parent.
Who cares if it is cheating or not as the Mum said it cannot be denied it is Ethical and immoral and Hird and his cronies should man up and take their punishment.
God knows what any of us would be like if it was our own Pup's.
I know Eddie has to toe a tight line, but after the mum spoke he showed a bit of ignorance and still bought it back to how they were playing and the effects on Essendon Football club.

[Sedat]

Meanwhile back on Planet Hird, looks like he's gone all kamikaze and wants to take Vlad and Gilligan down with him:
http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/08/22/1226701/993571-hs-file-hird-court-1.pdf

[Twodogs]

Meanwhile back on Planet Hird, looks like he's gone all kamikaze and wants to take Vlad and Gilligan down with him:
http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/08/22/1226701/993571-hs-file-hird-court-1.pdf


He doesn't want to take it before a jury then?

[LostDoggy]

Rumour has it the deal offered to Essendon a while back was
Two years loss of draft picks
Two million dollar fine
12 month ban for James hird

Hird didnt accept that

[Bulldog4life]

WESTERN Bulldogs president Peter Gordon has backed the AFL in its war with Essendon ahead of this afternoon's meeting between club figureheads and the AFL Commission.

Gordon, a lawyer, said mediation was badly needed in the poisonous standoff between the league and the club in the wake of the long-running supplements scandal.

The commission will brief clubs presidents - including Essendon's Paul Little - at a meeting at AFL House from 3pm today.

Essendon coach James Hird lodged a writ against the league in the Supreme Court this morning.

"I do think it's time that we, as the other clubs, make it clear that not only do we support the AFL but we expect the AFL to do its job to protect the integrity of the game, which from my point of view that's what they are doing,'' Gordon said on ABC radio today.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/western-bulldogs-president-peter-gordon-says-clubs-back-afl-in-war-with-essendon/story-fni5fazt-1226702085001

[Ozza]

I think we, as supporters, can be pretty happy with our President's stance and words today.

[LostDoggy]

God I love that man (Gordon). What a legend! So much integrity, he could definitely teach the Bombers (and most other clubs) a thing or two about it.

As an aside, @FootballNation have reported the player's name whose mother called in. Bit of a low act, really.

[Ozza]

I must admit - I looked through the list this morning to find the 'almost 21 year olds' to work out who it could be.

[Remi Moses]

Wow! That was powerful.
Essendon have acted appallingly.Hird is a disgrace

[LostDoggy]

Meanwhile back on Planet Hird, looks like he's gone all kamikaze and wants to take Vlad and Gilligan down with him:
http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/08/22/1226701/993571-hs-file-hird-court-1.pdf

The age of the internet - a Court document filed this morning which I can view pretty much immediately while sitting at home and still in my pyjamas! And now I know Hird's private address.

"39. Accordingly, Essendon will play in the Final Series." They must not be aware of #BulldogsWildCard!

Many lawyers will be rubbing their hands with glee over all this. What an ego driven mess.

I've been wondering when the parents would start speaking out, how awful for all those families. And how typical this scenario is - keep the victims quiet while the perpetrators stand in the limelight and try and portray themselves as the victims.

A quick thank you Sedat for your updates and pretty measured opinions on this debarcle. Have been reading with great interest, though I don't share your conviction that much will happen by way of penalty to EFC. Hopefully I'm wrong as this has really dragged our country's unique and great game into the sewer. And don't get me started on the whole WorkSafe aspects.

[kruder]

Great time to have a crack some Essondon players. After Hirds performance yesterday and previously there will be players keen to move for sure. I'm still convinced that the players will be excused in this issue hence we should be in there ready and willing to improve our list.

[Remi Moses]

Rumour has it the deal offered to Essendon a while back was
Two years loss of draft picks
Two million dollar fine
12 month ban for James hird

Hird didnt accept that

They should have taken that. What on earth did they think was going to happen?
Slap on the wrist ? Just staggered

[LostDoggy]

The age of the internet - a Court document filed this morning which I can view pretty much immediately while sitting at home and still in my pyjamas! And now I know Hird's private address.

"39. Accordingly, Essendon will play in the Final Series." They must not be aware of #BulldogsWildCard!

Many lawyers will be rubbing their hands with glee over all this. What an ego driven mess.

I've been wondering when the parents would start speaking out, how awful for all those families. And how typical this scenario is - keep the victims quiet while the perpetrators stand in the limelight and try and portray themselves as the victims.

A quick thank you Sedat for your updates and pretty measured opinions on this debarcle. Have been reading with great interest, though I don't share your conviction that much will happen by way of penalty to EFC. Hopefully I'm wrong as this has really dragged our country's unique and great game into the sewer. And don't get me started on the whole WorkSafe aspects.

It's the joint in Toorak with 58 media vans parked in front of it. :D


They should have taken that. What on earth did they think was going to happen?
Slap on the wrist ? Just staggered

Agree. They don't want to look like drug cheats. Too bloody late, really. That's what Reid warned them about, so tough luck for mine.

[Greystache]

I must admit - I looked through the list this morning to find the 'almost 21 year olds' to work out who it could be.

And there was only 2, one of whom is originally from Adelaide and I doubt his Mother would call into a Victorian radio station.

[bornadog]

And there was only 2, one of whom is originally from Adelaide and I doubt his Mother would call into a Victorian radio station.

If I was a parent I would be worried too. When my daughter was in a National Squad through AIS (for her sport), they were made to sign forms stipulating, they wouldn't take performance enhancing drugs. She said to me the other day, if the coach said to take certain pills and they were good for you etc, she said she may have just believed him as she was young and naive.

On the one hand I feel sorry for the players, as they are in a team, and they generally follow what the team does, on the other hand, we are all responsible for what goes into our bodies.

[LostDoggy]

Just had a little squizz over at Bomberblitz, and Jesus — it's pretty bleak for anybody hoping Bombers fans will see the light one day.

Guys: If this ever happens to us, promise me you won't check your brains at the login screen.

[westdog54]

If I was a parent I would be worried too. When my daughter was in a National Squad through AIS (for her sport), they were made to sign forms stipulating, they wouldn't take performance enhancing drugs. She said to me the other day, if the coach said to take certain pills and they were good for you etc, she said she may have just believed him as she was young and naive.

On the one hand I feel sorry for the players, as they are in a team, and they generally follow what the team does, on the other hand, we are all responsible for what goes into our bodies.

I had this argument (a rather heated one I might add), with a very good friend of mine who is a trainer at a Geelong and District League Club, and she basically said the same thing i.e. the culture at a Footy Club is such that if the doctor tells you to take something, you take it. If the coach tells you to do something, you do it, and that the players will be made to suffer for the crimes of the senior staff.

[Topdog]

They should have taken that. What on earth did they think was going to happen?
Slap on the wrist ? Just staggered

I get the feeling that if their coach was anyone else they would have accepted it.

[bornadog]

I had this argument (a rather heated one I might add), with a very good friend of mine who is a trainer at a Geelong and District League Club, and she basically said the same thing i.e. the culture at a Footy Club is such that if the doctor tells you to take something, you take it. If the coach tells you to do something, you do it, and that the players will be made to suffer for the crimes of the senior staff.

A lesson for all, take ownership and responsibility for what goes in your body.

[Bulldog4life]

I get the feeling that if their coach was anyone else they would have accepted it.

The Club would have made the coach do so if it was anyone else.

[LostDoggy]

Interested to find out what is transpiring at the president's meeting

[anfo27]

Great time to have a crack some Essondon players. After Hirds performance yesterday and previously there will be players keen to move for sure. I'm still convinced that the players will be excused in this issue hence we should be in there ready and willing to improve our list.

If players don't get banned then they should not have to fulfil their contract. They all should be given special provisions by the AFL to allow them to be free agents & join whatever team they want if they feel the club has failed them.

If that was my son there is no way he would be staying at that club!

[Mofra]

If that was my son there is no way he would be staying at that club!
There a rumour - only a rumour at this stage - that Hurley wants out.

They can't keep a list together when 15 are out of contract this year. Crameri hasn't signed yet.

[Ghost Dog]

A lesson for all, take ownership and responsibility for what goes in your body.

Zaharakis says hello

[anfo27]

There a rumour - only a rumour at this stage - that Hurley wants out.

They can't keep a list together when 15 are out of contract this year. Crameri hasn't signed yet.

If i was him I would walk & tell Hird to get stuffed! Tell them you won't get anything for me either.

Hirds defiance reminds me of Lance Armstrong. Maybe this is unfair but it makes me question James during his playing career.

[LostDoggy]

If i was him I would walk & tell Hird to get stuffed! Tell them you won't get anything for me either.

Hirds defiance reminds me of Lance Armstrong. Maybe this is unfair but it makes me question James during his playing career.

The danger of honour — easily lost, not so easily regained.

[Maddog37]

No player will or should accept medication without thorough checks from this point on you would think. This is just another step towards Australan sports growing up and facing the real world.

[LostDoggy]

PG is gonna be interviewed about the meeting soon

[Maddog37]

Interesting PG is the mouth piece for the presidents. Essendon supporters are gonna hate us for that and even more when their players start looking around for new clubs that are on the up to play for. Maybe even a club that has a coach they respect and would like to play under. Shame they are all under a drug deregistration cloud. Interesting times.

[bornadog]

Interesting PG is the mouth piece for the presidents. Essendon supporters are gonna hate us for that and even more when their players start looking around for new clubs that are on the up to play for. Maybe even a club that has a coach they respect and would like to play under. Shame they are all under a drug deregistration cloud. Interesting times.

PG has just released a statement on behalf of all the clubs. 17 clubs met and they have unanimously backed the AFL and that the matter should be resolved within the AFL and not in court.

[LostDoggy]

Yep, great stuff from PG, the presidents have decided that the matters should stay out of the public sphere, so we shouldn't see any more public fighting with each other like the events of yesterday.

[westdog54]

PG has just released a statement on behalf of all the clubs. 17 clubs met and they have unanimously backed the AFL and that the matter should be resolved within the AFL and not in court.

So Essendon stands alone then.

They're gonna get creamed.

[bulldogtragic]

So Essendon stands alone then.

They're gonna get creamed.
Goody!

[Bulldog4life]

So Essendon stands alone then.

They're gonna get creamed.

Bloody rogue Club.

[LostDoggy]

The best thing about PG is that he holds no fear. No fear of Essendon, no fear of the AFL, and he's definitely the right bloke to speak on behalf of the presidents because of that.

[1eyedog]

There a rumour - only a rumour at this stage - that Hurley wants out.

They can't keep a list together when 15 are out of contract this year. Crameri hasn't signed yet.

Well hello sailor...

Perhaps we'll get a crack at Crameri on Steroids ala Hurley (pardon the pun).

[SonofScray]

Sam Newman reckons he has a stronger grasp of the process than the President of the Footscray Footy Club.

[Sedat]

Sam Newman reckons he has a stronger grasp of the process than the President of the Footscray Footy Club.
Sam Newman, Andrew Bolt, Alan Jones. With friends like that....

[Remi Moses]

Sam Newman reckons he has a stronger grasp of the process than the President of the Footscray Footy Club.

Newman's completely irrelevant in football.
A Botoxed big mouth

[anfo27]

Newman's completely irrelevant in football.
A Botoxed big mouth

I think he is going senile in his old age. Talks complete dribble but always gets flogs in the crowd to support his ridiculous views.

[SonofScray]

Sam Newman, Andrew Bolt, Alan Jones. With friends like that....

Exactly. I wasn't surprised at all, but for the fact even the morons in the crowd couldn't around his "man of the people" rant.

[jeemak]

The thing that surprises me most is that anybody still watches TFS.

Jesus.

[SonofScray]

The thing that surprises me most is that anybody still watches TFS.

Jesus.

Fair point, I tuned in to see the reaction to the Essendon stuff. Should have known better. How can anyone actually openly support that Club right at this point in time? Hitching themselves to the wrong wagon.

[G-Mo77]

Fair point, I tuned in to see the reaction to the Essendon stuff. Should have known better. How can anyone actually openly support that Club right at this point in time? Hitching themselves to the wrong wagon.

People talk which is publicity which is ratings. What exactly did the stupid old fool say?

[FrediKanoute]

Just had a little squizz over at Bomberblitz, and Jesus — it's pretty bleak for anybody hoping Bombers fans will see the light one day.

Guys: If this ever happens to us, promise me you won't check your brains at the login screen.

I can promise you I will be leading the charge to have the people at our club removed from office regardless of who they are. No one is bigger than the club.

[whythelongface]

Sam Newman, Andrew Bolt, Alan Jones. With friends like that....


There was also some guy by the name of Michael Smith ranting on twitter about Peter Gordon and his involvement in the AWU case that involved Julia Gillard. Basically he was questioning Gordon's integrity in light of the AWU issue.

Who is this knob?

[Mofra]

If i was him I would walk & tell Hird to get stuffed! Tell them you won't get anything for me either.
Litigation has started. The other problem Essendon have - getting real ugly now.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/top-law-firm-in-talks-with-dons-player-20130822-2sekm.html


One of Melbourne's top compensation law firms is believed to be in talks with an Essendon player over the supplements scandal.

An industry source told Fairfax Media that national law firm Holding Redlich was providing early advice to at least one individual from the embattled AFL club.


PS - this is the first time in 3 years of going to the gym that I've actually collected the Herald-Sun. Normally I'd be embarrassed to be seen in public with it - but I couldn't resist this morning.

Kudos to PG for leading the charge too - spoek before the meeting, and was the 17-club president spokesman after the meeting. Perhaps other clubs respect him as much as we do.

[Mofra]

Sam Newman reckons he has a stronger grasp of the process than the President of the Footscray Footy Club.
Knowing people close to Sam Newman, Sam is actually an idiot. Can't count to 21 unless he takes his shoes off and unzips his fly.

[Dry Rot]

There was also some guy by the name of Michael Smith ranting on twitter about Peter Gordon and his involvement in the AWU case that involved Julia Gillard. Basically he was questioning Gordon's integrity in light of the AWU issue.

Who is this knob?

Ex shockjock going after Gillard. Made the complaint to Vic police and now IIRC 8 fraud detectives are investigating her and two others. IIRC they raided Slater and Gordon. Allegations re Gordon and his law firm include failing to inform their client of what they discovered about Gillard's behaviour.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/

http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/11686#.UhaaQODtHvY

[Ozza]

Exactly. I wasn't surprised at all, but for the fact even the morons in the crowd couldn't around his "man of the people" rant.

He really embarrassed himself worse than usual with last night's rant. He didn't get his usual crowd support, Barrett sledged him - and he looked pretty rattled afterwards.

Was good to see.

Like others - if I watch TFS - it tends to be until Barrett's news wrap up, and then I flick over.

[bornadog]

Ex shockjock going after Gillard. Made the complaint to Vic police and now IIRC 8 fraud detectives are investigating her and two others. IIRC they raided Slater and Gordon. Allegations re Gordon and his law firm include failing to inform their client of what they discovered about Gillard's behaviour.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/

http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/11686#.UhaaQODtHvY

another right wing nazi

[LostDoggy]

Kudos to PG for leading the charge too - spoek before the meeting, and was the 17-club president spokesman after the meeting. Perhaps other clubs respect him as much as we do.

Peter Gordon is very well-known for being anything but an AFL puppet — he has credit in the bank from the '89 fight — and therefore if the 17 clubs want to give the impression they are speaking on their own behalf, not just as mouthpieces for the AFL Commission, he's the right guy for it. Gordon or Maguire, and Eddie is mixed up with too many of the Essendon boys.


He really embarrassed himself worse than usual with last night's rant. He didn't get his usual crowd support, Barrett sledged him - and he looked pretty rattled afterwards.

Was good to see.

Like others - if I watch TFS - it tends to be until Barrett's news wrap up, and then I flick over.

Barrett really gave it to him, and he (Sam) was certainly on the back foot. I think it's a deliberate ploy by Sam for ratings and nothing more — watch the Footy Show and see what Sammy is going to say next to put his foot in it deeper.

[Dry Rot]

another right wing nazi

Yeah, and he is a good hater. However, from what I've seen I'd expect Gillard to be charged and do time.

[LostDoggy]

An interesting article on The Conversation:

http://theconversation.com/supplementary-reading-why-was-there-no-red-flag-at-essendon-17350

Specifically this part:

A curious detail: one of the disputed allegations is that high-performance coach Dean Robinson provided coach James Hird with Melanotan II – a drug which is unapproved for human use and causes melanogenesis (or tanning) and a range of side-effects.

The section in the report describing Hird suffering side-effects is redacted – which may have something to do with the fact that Melanotan-II produces spontaneous erections.

:D

The article references this study: http://www.jurology.com/article/S0022-5347(01)62903-3/abstract


In 8 of 10 men treated with Melanotan-II clinically apparent erections developed. Mean duration of tip rigidity greater than 80% was 38.0 minutes with Melanotan-II

[Twodogs]

Yeah, and he is a good hater. However, from what I've seen I'd expect Gillard to be charged and do time.



If Gillard was charged there would be a lot of nervous lawyers around. Pretty much every lawyer has done what Gillard is accused of doing. Personally I think it's a can of worms that nobody wants opened.

[comrade]

An interesting article on The Conversation:

http://theconversation.com/supplementary-reading-why-was-there-no-red-flag-at-essendon-17350

Specifically this part:


:D

The article references this study: http://www.jurology.com/article/S0022-5347(01)62903-3/abstract

Tip rigidity FTW.

[Topdog]

Ah now I know what the press conference is for. Hird probably just wants to tell everyone that he had 38 minute erections before the drugs.

[LostDoggy]

I think Hird is just going to be focused on getting it up for the Carlton game this weekend.

The charges against him are a bit stiff, to be honest.

(Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

[SonofScray]

He wants to stick it up the AFL.

[Greystache]

It's going hard this weekend for Hird, with all the things that have been popping up during the week, but if he can stiffen up the backline, develop something solid in the middle area, and be firm with his players they should be able to perform.

[LostDoggy]

Article in the Australian contained information almost certainly leaked from Hird and his lawyers that the redacted part referred to the tanning agent - apparently Hird was supposed to take Melatonin for help sleeping not Melanotan II. Either way all this spin from both angles is getting annoying.

[1eyedog]

Expect every Essendon player to be spreading for the fat side of the ground tomorrow.

[Go_Dogs]

It's going hard this weekend for Hird, with all the things that have been popping up during the week, but if he can stiffen up the backline, develop something solid in the middle area, and be firm with his players they should be able to perform.

:D Straight bat, well played.