Going to Script.....

[LostDoggy]

I can hear the knock on Maccas door sometime around last Monday I reckon....."ok mate youve had ya fun but that ill do pig". I can see a little cheeky grin curl up on the corner of Maccas mouth, and with nod he tells the whole Recruitment staff of the Western Bulldogs who have for the last few weeks done the hard yards on the pick they will have, that he will pull this jugganaut up, and with that recipe.

Leave Cooney at home
Add two hard days on the track
Add some Amature home umpires
Leave the sprinklers on overnight
And add a whole lot of opposition goals out ya rectum

Mix it up and Ladies and Gentleman welcome to Tanking in the 21st Century.

Its all going to Script....

The one thing that I will take home with me.....These Bulldogs just dont stop coming and they dont always follow the Script. So you better keep fluking them Lions and dont take your eye off the rearview coz we will keep coming..........Whatever happens that wry grin will form in the corner off Maccas mouth as he walks off the Park today.....


(Apologies for the grammer and spelling....Damn Chrome on an Android)

[bulldogsthru&thru]

There's no way we tanked but it was the best outcome we could have hoped for if we want to hold onto pick 4. That is lose a close game we should have won

[Webby]

At the risk of getting my head ripped off here, I'm pleased with the Brisbane result. A strong, honorable loss was palatable at this point in the season.

Had we won, we would've leap-frogged Gold Coast and pulled equal points with Brisbane, with about 5 percentage points between us..

With us every chance of belting Melbourne next week and Brisbane every chance of being belted by Geelong, a win tonight had every chance of dropping us from pick 4 to pick 6... In a shallow draft which is said to fall away beyond pick 4, I don't know if people realise just how significant a drop from pick 4 to pick 6 actually is. Gold Coast should comfortably beat GWS next week, so now we'll most likely keep pick 4, regardless of next week's result.

In 2006, for example, Josh Kennedy & Scott Pendlebury went 4 & 5...... and Beau Dowler went 6. Looking forward to this year's draft, Boyd, Scharenberg, Kelly & Aish are said to be the 4 standouts with odds becoming very hit & miss beyond that...

Although I'm bracing myself for the "you always take the win" doctrines, I'm just putting it out there that tonight might be a blessing in disguise in the grander scheme of things - which is a flag by 2020...

[LostDoggy]

There's no way we tanked but it was the best outcome we could have hoped for if we want to hold onto pick 4. That is lose a close game we should have won

Yea shouldnt say Tanked...how do i put it...make it hard to win while still teaching.

Cracking comeback. Makes me love the Dogs even more. Kept our pick for now.

The only loser was my pocket....The biggest change for me from last year is i was thinking about checking our price at half time because I knew we would keep coming....last year we wouldve lost that game by 10 goals even after some junktime goals.

[LostDoggy]

Suggestions of tanking are damning.
Tanking and even thinking that getting a better draft pick is a good thing are damning and the worst thing for the culture of a football club. Collingwood is the only team I can think of that has benefitted from tanking. It destroyed the culture of Melbourne and along with their other forms of cheating like with the salary cap, it destroyed the culture at Carlton.
Try to win every time.

[Eastdog]

Hopefully pick 4 is a good one.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

At the risk of getting my head ripped off here, I'm pleased with the Brisbane result. A strong, honorable loss was palatable at this point in the season.

Had we won, we would've leap-frogged Gold Coast and pulled equal points with Brisbane, with about 5 percentage points between us..

With us every chance of belting Melbourne next week and Brisbane every chance of being belted by Geelong, a win tonight had every chance of dropping us from pick 4 to pick 6... In a shallow draft which is said to fall away beyond pick 4, I don't know if people realise just how significant a drop from pick 4 to pick 6 actually is. Gold Coast should comfortably beat GWS next week, so now we'll most likely keep pick 4, regardless of next week's result.

In 2006, for example, Josh Kennedy & Scott Pendlebury went 4 & 5...... and Beau Dowler went 6. Looking forward to this year's draft, Boyd, Scharenberg, Kelly & Aish are said to be the 4 standouts with odds becoming very hit & miss beyond that...

Although I'm bracing myself for the "you always take the win" doctrines, I'm just putting it out there that tonight might be a blessing in disguise in the grander scheme of things - which is a flag by 2020...

Jack Billings says hello

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Suggestions of tanking are damning.
Tanking and even thinking that getting a better draft pick is a good thing are damning and the worst thing for the culture of a football club. Collingwood is the only team I can think of that has benefitted from tanking. It destroyed the culture of Melbourne and along with their other forms of cheating like with the salary cap, it destroyed the culture at Carlton.
Try to win every time.

Macca would be the last person On the planet who would do anything to even slightly reduce our chances of winning

[F'scary]

Sorry guys, but a loss is a loss is a loss for me. No draft silver lining.

[GVGjr]

Sorry guys, but a loss is a loss is a loss for me. No draft silver lining.
I'd take the win any day.

[Eastdog]

I'd take the win any day.

Ditto.

[LostDoggy]

Shallow draft falling away at 4 or 5.... Honestly, who sprouts this shit? There's genuine AFL talent at least to mid second easy.

[Topdog]

I'd take the win but it was a good loss in that we fought back and nearly got the win. 5 weeks ago that would have been a 15 goal loss.
And it pretty much assures pick 4

[LostDoggy]

Suggestions of tanking are damning.
Tanking and even thinking that getting a better draft pick is a good thing are damning and the worst thing for the culture of a football club. Collingwood is the only team I can think of that has benefitted from tanking. It destroyed the culture of Melbourne and along with their other forms of cheating like with the salary cap, it destroyed the culture at Carlton.
Try to win every time.

Yep. If pick 4 is going to do any good, it won't be at a club that sees benefit in losing matches. I want to see Watts leave the Dees, he'll be great at another club and prove the point.

[LostDoggy]

At the risk of getting my head ripped off here, I'm pleased with the Brisbane result. A strong, honorable loss was palatable at this point in the season.

Had we won, we would've leap-frogged Gold Coast and pulled equal points with Brisbane, with about 5 percentage points between us..

With us every chance of belting Melbourne next week and Brisbane every chance of being belted by Geelong, a win tonight had every chance of dropping us from pick 4 to pick 6... In a shallow draft which is said to fall away beyond pick 4, I don't know if people realise just how significant a drop from pick 4 to pick 6 actually is. Gold Coast should comfortably beat GWS next week, so now we'll most likely keep pick 4, regardless of next week's result.

In 2006, for example, Josh Kennedy & Scott Pendlebury went 4 & 5...... and Beau Dowler went 6. Looking forward to this year's draft, Boyd, Scharenberg, Kelly & Aish are said to be the 4 standouts with odds becoming very hit & miss beyond that...

Although I'm bracing myself for the "you always take the win" doctrines, I'm just putting it out there that tonight might be a blessing in disguise in the grander scheme of things - which is a flag by 2020...

No one will rip your head off for thinkin that and your right, was a bit at stake draft wise. We would have done our work over the last few weeks and no doubt we have our sights on whoever it is...dropping a couple of picks was not in the plans. I Was talking through my pocket lol couldve used Jones and Cooney wouldve loved that sort of game (anyone who needed reminding how important he is watch the replay) Im just glad the heart is beating strong in the boys and I love a good comeback.

For what its worth I want Scharenberg.

[LostDoggy]

I do remember saying out loud bout 5mins into the last to stuff the picks always want the win especially belting Melb next week I cant remember us finishing a year this strong outside the 8. The momentum over Summer will be so good for the club, we didnt slow that down tonight.

The drop in picks doesnt add up to much unless youve got your heart set on a player that wont last the drop and based your whole draft around getting him. Your first pick when its low can sometimes shape your whole draft and be the difference between smashing it and blowing it.

[bornadog]

I do remember saying out loud bout 5mins into the last to stuff the picks always want the win especially belting Melb next week I cant remember us finishing a year this strong outside the 8. The momentum over Summer will be so good for the club, we didnt slow that down tonight.

The drop in picks doesnt add up to much unless youve got your heart set on a player that wont last the drop and based your whole draft around getting him. Your first pick when its low can sometimes shape your whole draft and be the difference between smashing it and blowing it.

2005 We finished well and carried the momentum into 2006. I hope we belt the day lights out of Melbourne and we will keep pick 4.:)

[Webby]

Shallow draft falling away at 4 or 5.... Honestly, who sprouts this shit? There's genuine AFL talent at least to mid second easy.

Well, yeah..... But the odds of drafting a 10 year, 200 game AFL player blow out significantly for every pick after 1. In fact you're about a 90% chance to draft one at pick 1, 70% at pick 3, about a 15% chance to do it with pick 6 and about a 5% chance with pick 16... Sure, every draft sees one gun drafted at pick 27 or 36 or whatever, but that involves a fair degree of luck... And I'm just talking statistics over the past 15 years...

So despite all the admirable partisanship (and i promise I'm not being facetious, here) logic says that pick 4 is a lot better than pick 6.. Therefore I'm not too displeased with today's effort.

[GVGjr]

So despite all the admirable partisanship (and i promise I'm not being facetious, here) logic says that pick 4 is a lot better than pick 6.. Therefore I'm not too displeased with today's effort.

Farren Ray and Tim Walsh were selected at pick four so yes we have the opposite view on the way the result fell tonight.

[LostDoggy]

2005 We finished well and carried the momentum into 2006. I hope we belt the day lights out of Melbourne and we will keep pick 4.:)

Did we finish this strong? (Next week pending of course) but yea I think Macca really wants to smash Melb and finish strong! I know I do. No Jack Watts helicopters will save them this time. Now he gets to smash them and not feel guilty about losing a pick. (Tounge in cheek) Had my worries about Macca early but Im crackin in all the way now.

[LostDoggy]

Well, yeah..... But the odds of drafting a 10 year, 200 game AFL player blow out significantly for every pick after 1. In fact you're about a 90% chance to draft one at pick 1, 70% at pick 3, about a 15% chance to do it with pick 6 and about a 5% chance with pick 16... Sure, every draft sees one gun drafted at pick 27 or 36 or whatever, but that involves a fair degree of luck... And I'm just talking statistics over the past 15 years...

So despite all the admirable partisanship (and i promise I'm not being facetious, here) logic says that pick 4 is a lot better than pick 6.. Therefore I'm not too displeased with today's effort.

Can you please share the source of those statistics? That's my optimism showing that you've pulled them from somewhere other than where the sun ain't shining.

[LostDoggy]

Farren Ray and Tim Walsh were selected at pick four so yes we have the opposite view on the way the result fell tonight.

Is that your general view on the pic itself or just our use of it? Like every pic its thrown up some howlers but had its share of Guns too.

FWIW I nicknamed him apple for his turnovers but think Farren would slide into our team now almost a Danny cross replacement....maybe. But didnt we turn him into one J.Roughead. He has had a massive year.

[Eastdog]

Is that your general view on the pic itself or just our use of it? Like every pic its thrown up some howlers but had its share of Guns too.

FWIW I nicknamed him apple for his turnovers but think Farren would slide into our team now almost a Danny cross replacement....maybe. But didnt we turn him into one J.Roughead. He has had a massive year.

What happened to Farren. How come Rocket wasn't able to develop him well with us.

[LostDoggy]

Is that your general view on the pic itself or just our use of it? Like every pic its thrown up some howlers but had its share of Guns too.

FWIW I nicknamed him apple for his turnovers but think Farren would slide into our team now almost a Danny cross replacement....maybe. But didnt we turn him into one J.Roughead. He has had a massive year.

In comparing the best prospects, you're comparing the 4th best prospect to the 6th best prospect, there's really no difference.
Considering how many of the better players in the comp were late draft picks and how many first rounders are useless footballers there is a strange obsession with first rounders and draft postions among afl supporters

[Webby]

Farren Ray and Tim Walsh were selected at pick four so yes we have the opposite view on the way the result fell tonight.

I know Farren Ray was traded and we're supposed to forget him and hate him, but he's playing very good footy this year and will retire a 10 year plus, 200 plus game AFL player.. Plus we traded him for the pick we used to get Roughead.

And whilst I'm on it, the 2003 draft was an exceptionally shallow one. Cooney was light years ahead of the field. Brock McLean and Kepler Bradley went immediately after Ray, whilst there was very, very little in the field after that... So the 200 game Farren Ray was actually a pretty good get in a poor draft.

As for Walsh, current premiership captain, Jarrad McVeigh went immediately after him, so we only have ourselves (or Mr Clayton) to blame..

A top 4 pick is a big thing. If you ask any Dogs fan under 15 years of age "who are the best two Dogs players you've seen?" and I'm pretty sure they say Cooney and Griffen. They are, by no coincidence, the highest two draft picks we've had.

[LostDoggy]

I know Farren Ray was traded and we're supposed to forget him and hate him, but he's playing very good footy this year and will retire a 10 year plus, 200 plus game AFL player.. Plus we traded him for the pick we used to get Roughead.

And whilst I'm on it, the 2003 draft was an exceptionally shallow one. Cooney was light years ahead of the field. Brock McLean and Kepler Bradley went immediately after Ray, whilst there was very, very little in the field after that... So the 200 game Farren Ray was actually a pretty good get in a poor draft.

As for Walsh, current premiership captain, Jarrad McVeigh went immediately after him, so we only have ourselves (or Mr Clayton) to blame..

A top 4 pick is a big thing. If you ask any Dogs fan under 15 years of age "who are the best two Dogs players you've seen?" and I'm pretty sure they say Cooney and Griffen. They are, by no coincidence, the highest two draft picks we've had.

The best most of us have seen was Pick 105 ;).
There's a higher likelihood that first rounders will turn out well but most people put way too much emphasis on draft picks. Lots of gems hidden in the draft and lots of junior stars who go early but can't make the step up or just become a good average player like say Ray or Bryce Gibbs. Or like Tim Walsh they do their knee and never recover. It's always a bit of a lucky dip.

[LostDoggy]

In comparing the best prospects, you're comparing the 4th best prospect to the 6th best prospect, there's really no difference.
Considering how many of the better players in the comp were late draft picks and how many first rounders are useless footballers there is a strange obsession with first rounders and draft postions among afl supporters

I see your point and agree, but would only be no real difference if they were all midfielders. What if the 4th was a kpd, 5th a half back, 6th a Ruck, ratings wise of course. If you went best available you can go from the highest rated full back to a 208cm ruckman to go with the other 4 rucks on the list and watch the next in line take the next B.Lake. Taking the ruck flows onto your next pick which you change from the best mid, to taking the next best F.B to fill your needs and so on down the line every pick gets changed.

I guess only top ten picks have that much power to shape the rest, because of the smaller margin and greater planning tools avail.

[LostDoggy]

The best most of us have seen was Pick 105 ;).
There's a higher likelihood that first rounders will turn out well but most people put way too much emphasis on draft picks. Lots of gems hidden in the draft and lots of junior stars who go early but can't make the step up or just become a good average player like say Ray or Bryce Gibbs. Or like Tim Walsh they do their knee and never recover. It's always a bit of a lucky dip.

I like Collingwoods ratings, when in doubt take the big game player.

[LostDoggy]

I see your point and agree, but would only be no real difference if they were all midfielders. What if the 4th was a kpd, 5th a half back, 6th a Ruck, ratings wise of course. If you went best available you can go from the highest rated full back to a 208cm ruckman to go with the other 4 rucks on the list and watch the next in line take the next B.Lake. Taking the ruck flows onto your next pick which you change from the best mid, to taking the next best F.B to fill your needs and so on down the line every pick gets changed.

I guess only top ten picks have that much power to shape the rest, because of the smaller margin and greater planning tools avail.

I also see your point to an extent. I think developing a winning culture by finishing higher on the ladder is simply too important to bother thinking about getting higher draft picks - even as fans.

Also feel obliged to point out that Brian Lake was of course a speculative key forward prospect picked at 71 :D

[LostDoggy]

I also see your point to an extent. I think developing a winning culture by finishing higher on the ladder is simply too important to bother thinking about getting higher draft picks - even as fans.

Also feel obliged to point out that Brian Lake was of course a speculative key forward prospect picked at 71 :D

:D Got me with Brian. As for weighing up the value of a Winning Culture theres no comparison. For a young side rebuilding. To go against that would be going against everything Macca would stand for I would imagine.

If it meant the difference between pick 3 and pick 1 id be curious to see how Macca would handle the idea of a 'one off ' but would expect it not on the table for what we are looking at thats for sure.

[Eastdog]

:D Got me with Brian. As for weighing up the value of a Winning Culture theres no comparison. For a young side rebuilding. To go against that would be going against everything Macca would stand for I would imagine.

If it meant the difference between pick 3 and pick 1 id be curious to see how Macca would handle the idea of a 'one off ' but would expect it not on the table for what we are looking at thats for sure.

What if down the track the draft was randomised like it is in the NFL in America. What would you think of that. It will get rid of 'tanking'.

[LostDoggy]

What happened to Farren. How come Rocket wasn't able to develop him well with us.

Farren always looked worried about makin a mistake, :) I always could picture Rocket pointing his finger yelling "dont you do it boi" everytime he kicked it. Which most of the time resulted in Apple Turnover for dessert that night.

Half the time he ran around like Santas little helper with his tale between his legs.

Would welcome him back now, found a few yards and a set since leaving us. (Of course not knocking Rocket)
You win some, you lose some. Getting Roughead certainly made it all worth it. One of the most underated FB going around.

[LostDoggy]

What if down the track the draft was randomised like it is in the NFL in America. What would you think of that. It will get rid of 'tanking'.

Do like how they do it over there, more so the NBA.

[LostDoggy]

Having two new clubs so close, I think was a mistake and stuffed the draft up for two long. I worry at what cost having them both together. Some club will suffer dearly and I hope we continue getting stronger. The AFL shouldve made their move only when every club was strong and on an even playing field. Knee jerk reaction to dwindling numbers in the lower ranks.

[jeemak]

What if down the track the draft was randomised like it is in the NFL in America. What would you think of that. It will get rid of 'tanking'.

It might, but at the end of the day a lottery system where lower teams recieve a greater chance of landing a high pick will see some teams throw in the towell towards the end of the season to give themselves a better shot at landing the best talent.

I think the AFL and all of us just need to accept that equalisation through the draft can't be balanced with absolute integrity from participants. It's a matter of minimising the downside of a system, and maximising its benefits.

The accountability for these decisions is derived from the cost a club is willing to pay through compromising its culture. I think Melbourne, who have been rebuilding since 2007 have clearly demonstrated how stupid it is to give up a winning culture to land beneficial draft position.

[GVGjr]

Is that your general view on the pic itself or just our use of it? Like every pic its thrown up some howlers but had its share of Guns too.

.

I'm responding to Webby's view that moving from pick 4 to 5 or 6 in the draft order would be a huge concern and losing the game protects us a bit more from that option.

In my opinion, there are no sure things with the draft so therefore tanking games to protect a spot isn't an option that I would consider. We had a slim chance of winning the game and I would still take the win if I could. Where we finish on the ladder does not concern me.

[Remi Moses]

I'm a bit foot in both camps .
Rather us win, but it's not a devastating loss.
You also have a distinct advantage if a player fall out of the loop and you can pick him up in the pre- season.
Also rookie pick is higher.

[Eastdog]

If we finish above the bottom 4 we have a better chance next year on getting a Friday night match at least.

[LostDoggy]

It might, but at the end of the day a lottery system where lower teams recieve a greater chance of landing a high pick will see some teams throw in the towell towards the end of the season to give themselves a better shot at landing the best talent.

I think the AFL and all of us just need to accept that equalisation through the draft can't be balanced with absolute integrity from participants. It's a matter of minimising the downside of a system, and maximising its benefits.

The accountability for these decisions is derived from the cost a club is willing to pay through compromising its culture. I think Melbourne, who have been rebuilding since 2007 have clearly demonstrated how stupid it is to give up a winning culture to land beneficial draft position.

Making it not a gaurenteed pick surely would stop most teams risking it or adding to many cons in the box to tank. I ike the idea of a lottery creates a bit of uncertainty.

As for Melb they made mistake after mistake, they ran the Gauntlet and have paid dearly. They are their own worst enemy. They were never going to take the dark big leaping panther over the private schoolboy blonde full forward which they messed with the culture to get. Add on top of that didnt rate the importance that you dont just trade your least skilled or oldest players without weighing what else do they bring to the table.

If i had a player on my list that would bleed forr the jumper i would be keeping him. You dont trade your heart or soul. No sympathy here.

[Webby]

I'm responding to Webby's view that moving from pick 4 to 5 or 6 in the draft order would be a huge concern and losing the game protects us a bit more from that option.

In my opinion, there are no sure things with the draft so therefore tanking games to protect a spot isn't an option that I would consider.

Just to clarify, I'm no advocate of tanking, nor am I suggesting we did. I'm just pointing out that i was hardly throwing the remote at the TV after today's game. Seeing the glass as half full rather than half empty. If we'd won one more game by just a point in 2003, Adam Cooney would be a Carlton player and we'd havehad Andrew Walker for the past ten years. I know who I'd prefer!

To be honest, I'm pleased with this season. Good kids, good development, moving in the right direction, high draft pick and maybe even capable of sneaking into the eight next year. I'm not slashing my wrists over one game that didn't go our way. Particularly one in which we showed a bit.

[LostDoggy]

I'm responding to Webby's view that moving from pick 4 to 5 or 6 in the draft order would be a huge concern and losing the game protects us a bit more from that option.

In my opinion, there are no sure things with the draft so therefore tanking games to protect a spot isn't an option that I would consider. We had a slim chance of winning the game and I would still take the win if I could. Where we finish on the ladder does not concern me.

Fair enough i agree and not our spot anyway.

Have you got an eye on anyone that you would love for us to get?

[LostDoggy]

Just to clarify, I'm no advocate of tanking, nor am I suggesting we did. I'm just pointing out that i was hardly throwing the remote at the TV after today's game. Seeing the glass as half full rather than half empty. If we'd won one more game by just a point in 2003, Adam Cooney would be a Carlton player and we'd havehad Andrew Walker for the past ten years. I know who I'd prefer!

To be honest, I'm pleased with this season. Good kids, good development, moving in the right direction, high draft pick and maybe even capable of sneaking into the eight next year. I'm not slashing my wrists over one game that didn't go our way. Particularly one in which we showed a bit.

Im still spewing we didnt end up with both..;)

[GVGjr]

A top 4 pick is a big thing. If you ask any Dogs fan under 15 years of age "who are the best two Dogs players you've seen?" and I'm pretty sure they say Cooney and Griffen. They are, by no coincidence, the highest two draft picks we've had.

You've come off your original line though that was indicating that the loss was preserving pick four which in your eyes was a good thing and certainly better than pick 5.

Since you have raised the subject about Griffen, he went at pick 3 not 4 and pick 3 is something we can't get this year and of course in that Griffen year Tambling went at pick 4 (the pick you seem to want to protect) and yet the steal of the draft was Franklin who went at pick 5.

One of our posters here spent the better part of a season wanting the club to tank games. His logic was that the lower the pick we had clearly the better we will be. (He baulked at saying tanking but it's what he wanted)

Leading into the draft he then wanted us to ignore the better credentialed players (who weren't key position height) and draft a key position player. Come draft day the guy he nominated wasn't selected and eventually went in the rookie draft.

I know it sounds great that we have a top 4 pick but of course it might mean very little if we select the wrong player because of any bias we have on the day like chasing an average KPP over the best midfielder, small defender or mid sized forward etc.

On draft day clubs typically sit there with a list that ranks players something like 1 to 70 and just cross players off the list as other clubs call them. In the first round nearly every club takes the player they believe is the best regardless of the position they play although there might be some variables in that.

I really don't think that pick 4, 5 or 6 makes the world of difference because in every draft there are examples of clubs getting steals or clubs making huge blunders.

I know you weren't suggesting tanking and I'm guessing you would have probably been a bit happier with the win than the loss. I also get that you are looking at the silver lining after the loss but I would still take a win every chance I could and wouldn't be too concerned with what draft pick we have.

The point I'm never going to agree with is that the loss last night is a good thing because it keeps the club in the pick 4 range.

[GVGjr]

Fair enough i agree and not our spot anyway.

Have you got an eye on anyone that you would love for us to get?

It's not a great draft because its been weakened with no Hogan or Martin but there is an even spread of players. Like most years the draft combine will probably be the tie breaker with some of the players I'd like us to get.

We had such a good draft last year we can probably select some needs based players this year.
Players that exhibit a football IQ, athleticism and skills would be my preference.

[The Underdog]

What if down the track the draft was randomised like it is in the NFL in America. What would you think of that. It will get rid of 'tanking'.

The NFL draft is in reverse order of record same as ours. It's essentially he model ours was based on.
The NBA has a lottery. If you think that eliminates tanking, think again. Next years NBA draft crop is particularly strong and teams like the 76ers are already setting themselves up to fail to give themselves the best chance at getting an early pick. I hate the lottery idea, I think it's ridiculous. Much like priority picks.

BTW, this may go down as the worst thread on WOOF to make 3 pages.

[LostDoggy]

BTW, this may go down as the worst thread on WOOF to make 3 pages.

Sad but true.
Losing is never an option. You always take what is in front of you and worry about ramifications after. The club is a business, and we have to produce a good brand for our business. With winning comes better game slots, more exposure, a better following and fans taking notice. Flow on from that comes sponsorships, memberships etc. Build an empire.
Yes some may argue that drafting the "next big thing" will help. But I think it is extremely obvious there are no guarantees with the draft. Case and point the Griffen Buddy draft mentioned.
I don't even think it is worth tanking for #1 pick, I'd rather have Nic Nat than Jack Watts.
My point is you can win on draft day and you can lose on draft day but I definitely would have remembered that win last night if the boys had of pinched it from 57pts down.

[LostDoggy]

In comparing the best prospects, you're comparing the 4th best prospect to the 6th best prospect, there's really no difference.
Considering how many of the better players in the comp were late draft picks and how many first rounders are useless footballers there is a strange obsession with first rounders and draft postions among afl supporters

The Saviour Complex. Once you get impatient for success, the idea of drafting a kid who's a “guarantee” becomes very enticing, because the alternative (which is really the reality) says that even though you've lost all year, you could still end up with a disappointment at pick 1. That's a bitter pill to swallow for fans of a team like us or the Demons.


I know Farren Ray was traded and we're supposed to forget him and hate him, but he's playing very good footy this year and will retire a 10 year plus, 200 plus game AFL player.. Plus we traded him for the pick we used to get Roughead.

And whilst I'm on it, the 2003 draft was an exceptionally shallow one. Cooney was light years ahead of the field. Brock McLean and Kepler Bradley went immediately after Ray, whilst there was very, very little in the field after that... So the 200 game Farren Ray was actually a pretty good get in a poor draft.

As for Walsh, current premiership captain, Jarrad McVeigh went immediately after him, so we only have ourselves (or Mr Clayton) to blame..

A top 4 pick is a big thing. If you ask any Dogs fan under 15 years of age "who are the best two Dogs players you've seen?" and I'm pretty sure they say Cooney and Griffen. They are, by no coincidence, the highest two draft picks we've had.

When I ask my three Dogs fans under 15 (10, 8 and 7) they all tell me Luke Dahlhaus. Rookie pick.

[bornadog]

When I ask my three Dogs fans under 15 (10, 8 and 7) they all tell me Luke Dahlhaus. Rookie pick.

The kids love him. At the season launch he was sitting at the next table, and was surrounded by kids the whole night.

[Mofra]

When I ask my three Dogs fans under 15 (10, 8 and 7) they all tell me Luke Dahlhaus. Rookie pick.
Our two best inside mids of the past decade were pick 56 and a rookie pick (although Libba is closing fast).
Our two best defenders? pick 72 and a rookie pick.

I'd much rather a win. I really hope we belt Melbourne given we lost to them earlier in the year - we need to show how far we've developed in the past few months.

[Webby]

It’s burned in the minds of many of us who follow this draft stuff, that pick 6 is the notorious graveyard pick. As someone said they suspected I pull this stuff out of my proverbial, I thought I’d stump up:
*!
Since 1994, the average career games tally for players selected at pick 6 is a miserly 55… Steven Salopek is probably the poster boy of all players picked at number 6…!
For some context, pick 1’s have averaged 200 games, pick 2’s have averaged 185 games and pick 3’s, 175 game careers. Pick 4 and pick 5 generally see players nudge 150 games on average. Things do fall away! Most dramatically at 6.
Obviously I’m hopeful that Jackson Macrae breaks the hoodoo, but generally speaking, pick 6 is a stinker!
*!
I’ve heard people going on about Tambling as a poor pick 4… For some context, if he was taken at pick 6, he’d probably trump Salopek as the best pick 6 in AFL Draft history… That’s not a joke! That’s how bad pick 6 has been. It does fall away quite dramatically.
People also say “Oh, there’s still talent in the draft beyond the top few picks” and they’re correct… But it’s equally true to make the statement “someone wins the chook raffle every single night it’s held!”… it doesn’t necessarily mean the odds are any good for the 70 odd participants! It’s statistically demonstrated that the most successful picks in the draft are the higher ones. Particularly the top 5.
*!
I didn’t set out wanting to lose. I wanted to win the game. However, in the aftermath, I can sit back and objectively say to myself “Oh well, at least we’ll avoid pick 6 and probably hold onto pick 4.… and we played okay..”

And as for Dahlhaus being a better player than Griffen in the mind of a kid, I think we'll have to put that down to the impressionable nature of youth...

[LostDoggy]

The NFL draft is in reverse order of record same as ours. It's essentially he model ours was based on.
The NBA has a lottery. If you think that eliminates tanking, think again. Next years NBA draft crop is particularly strong and teams like the 76ers are already setting themselves up to fail to give themselves the best chance at getting an early pick. I hate the lottery idea, I think it's ridiculous. Much like priority picks.

BTW, this may go down as the worst thread on WOOF to make 3 pages.

:D Oh lighten up...The thread went 3 pages coz what else have you got to yak about till 3 in the morning. I definately helped it along and guess what? Its still going :D and it was started with a bit of tounge in cheek. It raised a few things I suppose can be interesting for that time of night. Im sure theres worse threads out there?

If not Happy Days Ill gladly take the trophy off ya!

Just threw a couple of rods out and wanted to see if anyone else thought it was strange we were flat, we looked tired, Cooney got crook real late and tutty was on the pine to long? Missed their run bigtime, and cost us the game in the end.

No harm no foul! Happy Days.

In no way was I throwing accusations at Macca or anyone else.....just had a little poke.

I bleed Red White and Blue and in noway would ever like to see us hand up a game. It effects my week to much.

By the way I msgd my entire contacts list on my phone #BulldogsWildCard I love it.

End of the day relax and have some fun :)

[LostDoggy]

It’s burned in the minds of many of us who follow this draft stuff, that pick 6 is the notorious graveyard pick. As someone said they suspected I pull this stuff out of my proverbial, I thought I’d stump up:
*!
Since 1994, the average career games tally for players selected at pick 6 is a miserly 55… Steven Salopek is probably the poster boy of all players picked at number 6…!
For some context, pick 1’s have averaged 200 games, pick 2’s have averaged 185 games and pick 3’s, 175 game careers. Pick 4 and pick 5 generally see players nudge 150 games on average. Things do fall away! Most dramatically at 6.
Obviously I’m hopeful that Jackson Macrae breaks the hoodoo, but generally speaking, pick 6 is a stinker!
*!
I’ve heard people going on about Tambling as a poor pick 4… For some context, if he was taken at pick 6, he’d probably trump Salopek as the best pick 6 in AFL Draft history… That’s not a joke! That’s how bad pick 6 has been. It does fall away quite dramatically.
People also say “Oh, there’s still talent in the draft beyond the top few picks” and they’re correct… But it’s equally true to make the statement “someone wins the chook raffle every single night it’s held!”… it doesn’t necessarily mean the odds are any good for the 70 odd participants! It’s statistically demonstrated that the most successful picks in the draft are the higher ones. Particularly the top 5.
*!
I didn’t set out wanting to lose. I wanted to win the game. However, in the aftermath, I can sit back and objectively say to myself “Oh well, at least we’ll avoid pick 6 and probably hold onto pick 4.… and we played okay..”

And as for Dahlhaus being a better player than Griffen in the mind of a kid, I think we'll have to put that down to the impressionable nature of youth...

Get up em Webby! Get it to 4! :D

[Greystache]

It’s burned in the minds of many of us who follow this draft stuff, that pick 6 is the notorious graveyard pick. As someone said they suspected I pull this stuff out of my proverbial, I thought I’d stump up:
*!
Since 1994, the average career games tally for players selected at pick 6 is a miserly 55… Steven Salopek is probably the poster boy of all players picked at number 6…!
For some context, pick 1’s have averaged 200 games, pick 2’s have averaged 185 games and pick 3’s, 175 game careers. Pick 4 and pick 5 generally see players nudge 150 games on average. Things do fall away! Most dramatically at 6.
Obviously I’m hopeful that Jackson Macrae breaks the hoodoo, but generally speaking, pick 6 is a stinker!
*!
I’ve heard people going on about Tambling as a poor pick 4… For some context, if he was taken at pick 6, he’d probably trump Salopek as the best pick 6 in AFL Draft history… That’s not a joke! That’s how bad pick 6 has been. It does fall away quite dramatically.
People also say “Oh, there’s still talent in the draft beyond the top few picks” and they’re correct… But it’s equally true to make the statement “someone wins the chook raffle every single night it’s held!”… it doesn’t necessarily mean the odds are any good for the 70 odd participants! It’s statistically demonstrated that the most successful picks in the draft are the higher ones. Particularly the top 5.
*!
I didn’t set out wanting to lose. I wanted to win the game. However, in the aftermath, I can sit back and objectively say to myself “Oh well, at least we’ll avoid pick 6 and probably hold onto pick 4.… and we played okay..”

And as for Dahlhaus being a better player than Griffen in the mind of a kid, I think we'll have to put that down to the impressionable nature of youth...

You could just as easily highlight pick 7 and make a case using the same criteria that later picks are more likely to be successful than earlier picks. Since 1994 pick #7 is averaging 90 games and of the last 13 players picked only one is not still on an AFL list (Kane Tenace from the disastrous class of 2003).

So on that basis you should be gutted we didn't win on the weekend and hope a few things fell our way so we could drop down the order in the draft to get to where all the good kids are.

[Greystache]

Our two best inside mids of the past decade were pick 56 and a rookie pick (although Libba is closing fast).
Our two best defenders? pick 72 and a rookie pick.

It's a good point but on the flip side the players we have that possess pace and good kicking skills are Griffen and Cooney who were the first couple of players picked in their years (you could make a case for Murphy too). So while you can certainly fill out a list with quality players selected late, to acquire genuine pace and skill you really need to get in early and get your selections right.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It's a good point but on the flip side the players we have that possess pace and good kicking skills are Griffen and Cooney who were the first couple of players picked in their years (you could make a case for Murphy too). So while you can certainly fill out a list with quality players selected late, to acquire genuine pace and skill you really need to get in early and get your selections right.

Another factor is that over the last 5 or so years, recruiting has had much larger investment by clubs. Whereas in the days of old a decision on who to draft was made on watching a few games and a day of testing we now have departments whose job it is to watch these kids play for 2 or so years, speak with them and even their families etc. So i think the chances of getting a low pick wrong is much less today than it was say 5 years ago.

[Webby]

Another factor is that over the last 5 or so years, recruiting has had much larger investment by clubs. Whereas in the days of old a decision on who to draft was made on watching a few games and a day of testing we now have departments whose job it is to watch these kids play for 2 or so years, speak with them and even their families etc. So i think the chances of getting a low pick wrong is much less today than it was say 5 years ago.

That's true. We now have a very transparent TAC Cup, WA & SA competitions as well as Teal Cup and a draft combine. It's pretty unanimous who the top 3 kids in the country are most years.. I'd contend that each club has a very, very similar set of names in their top ten. The ordering will differ slightly. Generally all have the exact same order of top 3. Then numbers 4 & 5 might flip, whilst numbers 6 to 10 will vary quite a bit... And, for whatever reason, EVERYBODY seems to butcher pick 6.

As it gets deeper, clubs dive into their research, interviews etc. Depending on who's still available, they'll perhaps take a player with an injury cloud (who could be value) or try the kid who they think has upside. It starts to get subjective. The later picks are where the real art is.. Big clubs with big recruiting budgets (ie Collingwood) seem to do well. I'd hazard a guess on what end of the scale our budget is..!

However, for the top 4 or 5, pretty much the same names are at the top of every club's list. Thus the interest in holding a top 5 pick.

[Remi Moses]

This thread's got nothing on Pack your bags McCartney.
You could go around in circles with this pick and that pick.
I think the recruiting is made easier( obviously) with a lower pick, and for mine for the club to finish 15th and to be on the up is a real bonus.

[Mofra]

I think we put the pick 6 myth to bed in 2012 ;)

[The Underdog]

:D Oh lighten up...The thread went 3 pages coz what else have you got to yak about till 3 in the morning. I definately helped it along and guess what? Its still going :D and it was started with a bit of tounge in cheek. It raised a few things I suppose can be interesting for that time of night. Im sure theres worse threads out there?

If not Happy Days Ill gladly take the trophy off ya!

Just threw a couple of rods out and wanted to see if anyone else thought it was strange we were flat, we looked tired, Cooney got crook real late and tutty was on the pine to long? Missed their run bigtime, and cost us the game in the end.

No harm no foul! Happy Days.

In no way was I throwing accusations at Macca or anyone else.....just had a little poke.

I bleed Red White and Blue and in noway would ever like to see us hand up a game. It effects my week to much.

By the way I msgd my entire contacts list on my phone #BulldogsWildCard I love it.

End of the day relax and have some fun :)

I was less perplexed about it being lighthearted than the fact that anyone read the OP and took it seriously or understood it at all.
To suggest that we could influence the quality of the umpiring or ground conditions in Brisbane
as part of a tanking regime in amongst some wierd Bulldog fan fiction had me bemused to start.
Any allegations of tanking were the least of my concerns considering how we've been playing (plus we already did that 10 years ago).

[LostDoggy]

I have to say that I'm not unhappy we lost a close one. The first half suggested that we had read all the hype about how good we were or how good we thought we were. Well, we're not that good yet and there is so much to learn in the off season before we reach an elite level. Losses spell that out more harshly for us.

Based on how good our recruiting was last year with our selections, I am all for giving us the best possible chance to choose who we really need for our team structure. I wanted pick 4, not pick 6 because I have confidence that our recruiting team know what they are looking for. What I don't know is whether 4 or 6 will make any difference in this years draft for getting who we really want. That would depend on who other teams choose and on whether we are much fussed about it having to be this player or that.

[Eastdog]

What other picks in the draft are we getting along with pick 4?

[Maddog37]

Macca will get alot of mileage out of that loss IMHO. A lovely little reminder that we are miles off it and we need to continue to work hard and improve.

Pick 4 is better than pick 6 if we are considering trading it.

[Topdog]

You could just as easily highlight pick 7 and make a case using the same criteria that later picks are more likely to be successful than earlier picks. Since 1994 pick #7 is averaging 90 games and of the last 13 players picked only one is not still on an AFL list (Kane Tenace from the disastrous class of 2003).

So on that basis you should be gutted we didn't win on the weekend and hope a few things fell our way so we could drop down the order in the draft to get to where all the good kids are.

pick 4 averages 150 games, pick 7 90. Why would we want pick 7 instead of pick 4??

[LostDoggy]

Never happy to lose a game but would take an injury free loss over a win with injuries to players eg Sauce) in a dead rubber. As Macca said it wasn't about the scoreboard it was about how we played and in the second half we played some good footy, but we still have a lot to work on. So would rather the lower pick to give us more control in who we take and have faith the club will make a good decision.

[LostDoggy]

Macca will get alot of mileage out of that loss IMHO. A lovely little reminder that we are miles off it and we need to continue to work hard and improve.

Pick 4 is better than pick 6 if we are considering trading it.

If we must find a positive in losing, I'd accept this one.

[F'scary]

It might, but at the end of the day a lottery system where lower teams recieve a greater chance of landing a high pick will see some teams throw in the towell towards the end of the season to give themselves a better shot at landing the best talent.

I think the AFL and all of us just need to accept that equalisation through the draft can't be balanced with absolute integrity from participants. It's a matter of minimising the downside of a system, and maximising its benefits.

The accountability for these decisions is derived from the cost a club is willing to pay through compromising its culture. I think Melbourne, who have been rebuilding since 2007 have clearly demonstrated how stupid it is to give up a winning culture to land beneficial draft position.

Well said. The issue in a nut shell.

[LostDoggy]

Well said. The issue in a nut shell.

Hear, hear! Win at all costs.

[SonofScray]

Hear, hear! Win at all costs.

Just as Melbourne are an example the other way, this statement no longer sits comfortably on the back of Essendon's behaviour.;)

If you get a performance where the quality of effort and skill is tangible, where the Club plays to its identity the W - L shouldn't weigh too heavily. Like Macca says, it will take care of itself if we look after the contest and work moment by moment.

No tricks, no ploys to exploit admin based rules, just go to work every contest.

[LostDoggy]

Just as Melbourne are an example the other way, this statement no longer sits comfortably on the back of Essendon's behaviour.;)

If you get a performance where the quality of effort and skill is tangible, where the Club plays to its identity the W - L shouldn't weigh too heavily. Like Macca says, it will take care of itself if we look after the contest and work moment by moment.

No tricks, no ploys to exploit admin based rules, just go to work every contest.

I've really enjoyed your thoughts on this kind of stuff, SoS, you make some great points. We aren't playing to a coach's KPI, we're playing to a player's KPI, and to me that shows some incredible promise.

[w3design]

Are we confusing in some of these discussions, the difference between the player selected at any given pick number, and the equivalent best player.
IE, just because a player is selected at pick [ what ever] does not necessarily make him the equivalent best player at that choice.

Lets take 2 examples : Dal. and Chris Grant. Were they worse players/options than 100 odd etc. players than many selected before them? Clearly not. So, you should not judge the value of any draft position by the performance of individuals selected at those given draft picks.

The advantage of any position lies in the options still available to select between. IE, at pick 4 you have 2 more options available to select from than you have at choice 6. If that in turn is an advantage or not depends more on the ability of the recruiting staff, and pure luck, than on the numeric difference.

My quire on this draft is less what is our selection position, but more on just what will be our selection criterion. I just want 'natural footballers' rather than athletes, or particular position players.
With the way the game is evolving, yes you need guys with both pace and endurance, but of themselves these characteristics count for little compared with the natural sense of how to play the game.

Lastly for this rant, to b#ggery with a lottery for draft positions. For mine that completely negates the very reason for having a draft in the first place. The purpose surely is to even up the competition, and prevent the strong or rich clubs from continuously dominating, and giving the lesser clubs a fair chance.

The outcome of any given season should depend on the skill of the players/coaches /clubs, not on chance. There is already in my opinion far to much gambling in sport. Let's not reduce outcomes to the toss of a coin.
What is the point of holding a draft in the first place if the strong teams have an equal opportunity to get the best available players, while the struggling teams get what is left.
Now I understand that will not happen all the time, but odds say it will 50% of the time. A simple look at the ladder will tell you that even with the current system, there are more of the powerful [rich] clubs at the top of the ladder, and more of the poorer ones in the bottom half now.
Let's not exacerbate the problem by turning the draft into a lottery.

[soupman]

Absolutely. The lottery is a terrible idea that unfairly rewards the good teams as much as it discourages tanking. There is no way known Carlton deserve to chance upon pick 1 this year ahead of Melbourne, StKilda and us, and yet it could very well happen under that system at no cost to the Blues. That shows that there is something very wrong with that system.

[LostDoggy]

Just as Melbourne are an example the other way, this statement no longer sits comfortably on the back of Essendon's behaviour.;)

If you get a performance where the quality of effort and skill is tangible, where the Club plays to its identity the W - L shouldn't weigh too heavily. Like Macca says, it will take care of itself if we look after the contest and work moment by moment.

No tricks, no ploys to exploit admin based rules, just go to work every contest.

Spot on. That articulates my intention much better, SoS. My bad... amazing how thoroughly the Essendon saga has tainted everything.

[Mofra]

Well, our picks after round 1 have all just moved up one place (two after the second round) :)

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Well, our picks after round 1 have all just moved up one place (two after the second round) :)

Are Adelaide out of this draft too?

[Mofra]

Are Adelaide out of this draft too?
Yep, Essendon & Port both out, offset by GWS Compo pick (10) and another at the end of the first round

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Hope Gold Coast don't tank this week.

[bornadog]

Hope Gold Coast don't tank this week.

they had ten senior players out last week, so may be a close contest.

[LostDoggy]

So our first 3 picks at this stage would be 4, 21 and 37 i think.

I'm thinking we will trade 21 for Crameri.

[ledge]

Hopefully the drugs saga is ironed out before the draft don't want to recruit players who are banned for 2 years

[chef]

So our first 3 picks at this stage would be 4, 21 and 37 i think.

I'm thinking we will trade 21 for Crameri.

I think we will too.

[Maddog37]

Only if the ASADA investigation is done........

[Topdog]

So our first 3 picks at this stage would be 4, 21 and 37 i think.

I'm thinking we will trade 21 for Crameri.

Im sure we would love to. I doubt Essendon will be accepting of that though.

[LostDoggy]

Im sure we would love to. I doubt Essendon will be accepting of that though.

Pay for his employment lawyers fees

[LostDoggy]

That's his fair worth imo. Straight swap!

[1eyedog]

So our first 3 picks at this stage would be 4, 21 and 37 i think.

I'm thinking we will trade 21 for Crameri.

I'm thinking Crameri will not even be able to play football for 2 years.


Only if the ASADA investigation is done........

This will cut the hind quarters off most of the playing list IMO. I just can't see the players playing dumb and getting off without a sanction. WADA have zero tolerance for this and if ASADA come up short WADA will undertake a full review of the decision. They very likely will do this anyway so the heat is on ASADA to get it right.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Im sure we would love to. I doubt Essendon will be accepting of that though.

How much bargaining power do essendon have now though? They will be desperate to get into the draft. Although Brisbane showing interest in Crameri wont help us when negotiating

[SlimPickens]

Although Brisbane showing interest in Crameri wont help us when negotiating

Why? All their picks are below ours. If Brisbane want to use at top 10 pick on him then they can have him.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Why? All their picks are below ours. If Brisbane want to use at top 10 pick on him then they can have him.

I was of the thinking perhaps we could have used our 3rd rounder but if Brisbane put forward their 2nd we would then have to use our 2nd too. But Crameri would be able to influence this too if he tells Essendon he wants to play for us in which case essendon should do right by him or otherwise we could get him in the PSD for nothing

[GVGjr]

Why? All their picks are below ours. If Brisbane want to use at top 10 pick on him then they can have him.

What makes it harder for Essendon (and any other club) is that the player has to agree to go.
It's not just a case of the best return or deal for Essendon being accepted. If Crameri wants to go to the Dogs then they take the best deal they can get for him. He might even decide to go into the PSD where we will have an early pick.