Any trading OUT of our players this trade period? (2013)

[bulldogtragic]

We've discussed trading IN, but Is there anybody we should consider trading OUT, for long term gain: I.e. someone who has a decent value? (That is assuming we have any tradable commodities all...)

Or, are their other players you would entertain decent/favourable deals for, that you would not ordinarily be thinking of trading?

Thoughts.

[LostDoggy]

Trading out and percieved value is likely reliant on a tap on the shoulder during trade week from a rival club.

Do any of our fringe players have better than a third round value imo? No.

[LostDoggy]

Does Cross just go or can we trade him? And does this depend on what Crossy wants?

[always right]

He's uncontracted. He can basically go wherever he wants and we won't get anything in return....nor should we.

[G-Mo77]

He's uncontracted. He can basically go wherever he wants and we won't get anything in return....nor should we.

We can still trade him if we want, I mean he's free to go to anyone of his choosing but we can work out a deal much like Essendon did with port Adelaide last year for Monfries.

[Greystache]

We can still trade him if we want, I mean he's free to go to anyone of his choosing but we can work out a deal much like Essendon did with port Adelaide last year for Monfries.

Yeah I would expect us to trade him to make the process as simple as possible for him and his new club. Something like swapping pick 93 for pick 90.

[bulldogtragic]

Yeah I would expect us to trade him to make the process as simple as possible for him and his new club. Something like swapping pick 93 for pick 90.
If we trade him (and a pick) for a pick, are we obligated to use that pick (rookie upgrade or not)?

[Mofra]

If we trade him (and a pick) for a pick, are we obligated to use that pick (rookie upgrade or not)?
No, but another club can just sign him the way we signed Nick Lower.

We are still a bottom four side - our fringe players wouldn't hold much value I'd imagine.

[bulldogtragic]

No, but another club can just sign him the way we signed Nick Lower.

We are still a bottom four side - our fringe players wouldn't hold much value I'd imagine.
That's what I thought, Cross can point and choose.

I agree our fringe players hold no value. If Freo got close to the cup and (hypothetically) decided they needed the top contested marker in the AFL, and made a play for Jones, say pick 14 and Silvagni (or other fringe type), would we consider offers?

That is, are we entertaining offers this trade week or does BMac think everyone is untouchable and we are having a quiet trade period?

[Sedat]

Yeah I would expect us to trade him to make the process as simple as possible for him and his new club. Something like swapping pick 93 for pick 90.
Only chance of securing anything remotely of value would be if GWS was the club that he wanted to go to. They don't even use their later round picks and would be happy enough to give a late pick back to us so that he could get to his new club as early as possible.

[bulldogtragic]

Only chance of securing anything remotely of value would be if GWS was the club that he wanted to go to. They don't even use their later round picks and would be happy enough to give a late pick back to us so that he could get to his new club as early as possible.
Pick 60 would be a massive bonus in this scenario.

[Greystache]

Only chance of securing anything remotely of value would be if GWS was the club that he wanted to go to. They don't even use their later round picks and would be happy enough to give a late pick back to us so that he could get to his new club as early as possible.

That trade would make sense in the normal world, but I get the feeling that GWS are full of such arrogant pricks that they wouldn't do a trade unless they get the better end of the deal, even if it costs them nothing.

[LostDoggy]

Pick 60 would be a massive bonus in this scenario.

Anything is a bonus. Pick 453 is a bonus.

[G-Mo77]

Only chance of securing anything remotely of value would be if GWS was the club that he wanted to go to. They don't even use their later round picks and would be happy enough to give a late pick back to us so that he could get to his new club as early as possible.

And Crossy going to GWS is pretty slim from what I heard yesterday. I'm not going to go into details but was talking to a guy yesterday and said it would be extremely doubtful that he'd go interstate.

[The Underdog]

And Crossy going to GWS is pretty slim from what I heard yesterday. I'm not going to go into details but was talking to a guy yesterday and said it would be extremely doubtful that he'd go interstate.

That's one of the reasons Melbourne are where I think he'll end up

[LostDoggy]

That's one of the reasons Melbourne are where I think he'll end up

What about a team like Carlton?

[ReLoad]

Ok, ill bite.

Pick 4 and Wil Minson to GWS for pick 1 and a swap of our second rounders.

Not only is Tom Boyd worth it, but the press about having a Pick 1 at the club (aka Cooney) is worth at least a few thousand memberships in the short term alone.

We need to get the deal done and move on.

[Pickenitup]

If we trade Will it would be a HUGE Mistake one of the reasons Libba had a Great year was due to Will and ditto Griff.

[Ghost Dog]

We can still trade him if we want, I mean he's free to go to anyone of his choosing but we can work out a deal much like Essendon did with port Adelaide last year for Monfries.

Much like? Monfries was offered a three or four year deal IIRC. Not sure Crossy would be able to go that mile.

I just couldn't imagine the bloke in any other colors.

[G-Mo77]

Much like? Monfries was offered a three or four year deal IIRC. Not sure Crossy would be able to go that mile.

The years of contract are irrelevant. Compensation would have been effected for both clubs if he just signed as a free agent. My point was if we're in a situation like that we can do it.

[chef]

Ok, ill bite.

Pick 4 and Wil Minson to GWS for pick 1 and a swap of our second rounders.

Not only is Tom Boyd worth it, but the press about having a Pick 1 at the club (aka Cooney) is worth at least a few thousand memberships in the short term alone.

We need to get the deal done and move on.

Rather keep Will and pick 4.

[Greystache]

Ok, ill bite.

Pick 4 and Wil Minson to GWS for pick 1 and a swap of our second rounders.

Not only is Tom Boyd worth it, but the press about having a Pick 1 at the club (aka Cooney) is worth at least a few thousand memberships in the short term alone.

We need to get the deal done and move on.

I'd have been interested in this deal 2 months ago as I've always felt Campbell is a very capable player who just needs to be developed, but given what he's added to the team playing forward/2nd ruck I'd be reluctant to throw him into the number 1 ruck position to replace Will.

Cordy isn't up to it, so unless we also have a mature ruckman in mind as a target, I feel trading Minson will leave us short.

[Ghost Dog]

Not worth it. Takes so long to develop guys like Will. No shoe-in a pick 1 will make the grade.

[Bulldog Joe]

While plenty don't rate ruckmen too highly and Will looked like he was struggling around the Hawthorn game, he has actually finished the season very well.

Twice in the last 6 games he has exceeded 20 possessions and his determination to chase when he needed to on Sunday was terrific.

We would all love him to be better as a contested mark but he has clearly been the No. 1 ruck in the comp in 2013.

[LostDoggy]

Will looked like he was struggling around the Hawthorn game, he has actually finished the season very well.

No surprise he was struggling by then, took on 95% of the ruck duties by himself this year.

This comes from an AFL website article 'What the non-finalists have to look forward to in 2014'

Draft picks Despite the Bulldogs' impressive run of wins late in the season, they are still going to get their hands on a top five draft pick. That is invaluable, given the compromised drafts of recent years that have starved sides like them of new talent. They're on the hunt for a forward, and if they can snare one, either in the draft or by trading, only good things can come of it.

Ok so we're on the hunt for a forward, as written every single year? :rolleyes:

Who else is out there we could trade for that isn't White or Crameri? :confused:

[bornadog]

Ok, ill bite.

Pick 4 and Wil Minson to GWS for pick 1 and a swap of our second rounders.

Not only is Tom Boyd worth it, but the press about having a Pick 1 at the club (aka Cooney) is worth at least a few thousand memberships in the short term alone.

We need to get the deal done and move on.

Why would you want to get rid of an AA ruckman. The suggestion of this is just farcical.

[dadsgirl16]

Agree..no way would I be happy with Big Will going..Tom Boyd or no Tom Boyd

[ReLoad]

We do not have a marquee player, we need one, there is one right now ready and waiting to be picked, are you going to get him for free?

Or would you rather the infinitely more risky situation of saying "oh no we'll be right we can snag one with later picks"

You have to take the long term view on a trade such as this.

We are not going to get another shot at a top 5 pick for years, this is the only opportunity, we need to seize the day and do it.

Think Croad leaving the hawks and them getting Hodge? upsetting at the time? hell yes! did it work out ok? hell yes!

[ReLoad]

Why would you want to get rid of an AA ruckman. The suggestion of this is just farcical.

For a AA fullforward with 10+ years ahead of him?

Farcical not to.

[Mofra]

Who else is out there we could trade for that isn't White or Crameri? :confused:
Apprently more than one club has asked about Shane Kerstan from Geelong. He seems to be that mid sized lead up forward in the Crameri mold who can "do it all" in the words of B-Mac, so I assume we are one of them.

[chef]

For a AA fullforward with 10+ years ahead of him?

Farcical not to.

Like essendon thought when they picked Gumbleton at 2.

[Remi Moses]

We do not have a marquee player, we need one, there is one right now ready and waiting to be picked, are you going to get him for free?

Or would you rather the infinitely more risky situation of saying "oh no we'll be right we can snag one with later picks"

You have to take the long term view on a trade such as this.

We are not going to get another shot at a top 5 pick for years, this is the only opportunity, we need to seize the day and do it.

Think Croad leaving the hawks and them getting Hodge? upsetting at the time? hell yes! did it work out ok? hell yes!

Exactly right.I'm going to be interested in two years time reading some posts on here.
The club is on record at playing the long game, and should still be playing it.

[chef]

But GWS aren't going to be interested in a 29 year old ruck man.

This is a non event IMO.

[bornadog]

For a AA fullforward with 10+ years ahead of him?

Farcical not to.

AA fullforward - I didn't know you had a crystal ball?:rolleyes:

[chef]

AA fullforward - I didn't know you had a crystal ball?:rolleyes:

Seems a bit like selling the cow for some magic beans.

[SlimPickens]

AA fullforward - I didn't know you had a crystal ball?:rolleyes:

Must be using yours....Minson AA? ;)

[Happy Days]

Exactly right.I'm going to be interested in two years time reading some posts on here.
The club is on record at playing the long game, and should still be playing it.

This isn't a video game, we can't just trade players with no regard for team chemistry.

Trading Will would piss a lot of his mates off, and make everyone question their job security if players can be traded after performing to their absolute peak. Would you want to be loyal to a workplace that would treat you as so dispensable after a decade of service (and at least a few years of it being excellent)?

[stefoid]

Argh, I agree with everyone!

[Bulldog Joe]

Must be using yours....Minson AA? ;)

Not much Crystal Balling required to have Minson as AA ruckman for 2013.

Hard to find anyone who thinks that someone deserves the spot ahead of Will this year.

[bornadog]

Must be using yours....Minson AA? ;)

Lot closer than Boyd

PS: Minson named in AA squad of 40

[bulldogtragic]

Lot closer than Boyd
Boyd is the AA FF this year.



(Under 18's)

[Bulldog4life]

This isn't a video game, we can't just trade players with no regard for team chemistry.

Trading Will would piss a lot of his mates off, and make everyone question their job security if players can be traded after performing to their absolute peak. Would you want to be loyal to a workplace that would treat you as so dispensable after a decade of service (and at least a few years of it being excellent)?

Well put Happy Days. I wouldn't like to see Will go. He is in peak form, is very popular with his team mates and loves the Club.

[bornadog]

Boyd is the AA FF this year.



(Under 18's)

Very funny.

Griffen and Minson named in AA squad of 40, no Libba:mad:

[bulldogtragic]

Very funny.

Griffen and Minson named in AA squad of 40, no Libba:mad:
No Libba. BS!

#1 clearance player in the league FFS.

[bornadog]

No Libba. BS!

#1 clearance player in the league FFS.

AFL = joke

[LostDoggy]

Trading out and percieved value is likely reliant on a tap on the shoulder during trade week from a rival club.

Do any of our fringe players have better than a third round value imo? No.

depends, I thought jordie McMahon was worth a 4th rounder and we got a second rounder for him, you never know how other clubs perceptions are.

Maybe we can trade Higgins to Collingwood for a first rounder, Eade was always a fan like Wallace with McMahon

[ledge]

Higgins to Essendon straight swap for Crameri I heard

[bornadog]

Higgins to Essendon straight swap for Crameri I heard

Pub talk or reliable source?

[Ghost Dog]

Very funny.

Griffen and Minson named in AA squad of 40, no Libba:mad:

Who decides it anyway?

[LostDoggy]

No Libba. BS!

#1 clearance player in the league FFS.

If I thought Libba's season was a once-off, I'd be pissed, but I've got every confidence in him backing it next year, and the year after that, and the year after that…

So yeah, it's a bit of a joke, but realistically, half the squad came from the top four teams because it's about more than individual players. If we were sitting sixth right now, he'd be a lock. Minson and Griff you can't ignore.

It won't matter in the end. His honours list will read Brownlow before it tells how many AA he got.


Pub talk or reliable source?

Pub talk is a reliable source… isn't it?

[stefoid]

Higgins to Essendon straight swap for Crameri I heard

That would be, uh, extremely surprising, shall we say?

[bornadog]

That would be, uh, extremely surprising, shall we say?

Maybe Higgins thinks they have the solution to his injuries:D

[LostDoggy]

Higgins to Essendon straight swap for Crameri I heard

If only that was true

[ledge]

One of the golden rumours guys but seriously if Higgins got over his injuries how damaging would he be in a forward line

[ledge]

Hey give me done credit I did post the Ward rumour to GWS about 6 months before it happened, so some of my sources are good .

[mighty_west]

One of the golden rumours guys but seriously if Higgins got over his injuries how damaging would he be in a forward line

Without the horrendous injuries Higgins would be an A grader without a shadow of a doubt imo.

[always right]

I'd be happy wiht that swap...sounds like a win/win.

[w3design]

Minno + pick 4 for an unproven teenager ??? Surely you jest ?

I showed this proposal to a mate who is tight with one of the 'in contention' teams, just to get an unbiased opinion of the idea.
When he finally stopped laughing, his reaction was... why would you strengthen ?? one area of the ground, by seriously weakening another. Makes no sense at all.

We were both of the opinion that in reality there was more likelihood of trading B MAC to Hawthorn as a player, than trading Minno for a kid.

[bulldogtragic]

Minno + pick 4 for an unproven teenager ??? Surely you jest ?

I showed this proposal to a mate who is tight with one of the 'in contention' teams, just to get an unbiased opinion of the idea.
When he finally stopped laughing, his reaction was... why would you strengthen ?? one area of the ground, by seriously weakening another. Makes no sense at all.

We were both of the opinion that in reality there was more likelihood of trading B MAC to Hawthorn as a player, than trading Minno for a kid.
So GWS would take the offer then?

[1eyedog]

One of the golden rumours guys but seriously if Higgins got over his injuries how damaging would he be in a forward line

I think more to the point is would he be able to chase guys out of the F50. If he could do this and live up to half of his talent he would hold more value than Crameri IMO.

[LostDoggy]

I think more to the point is would he be able to chase guys out of the F50. If he could do this and live up to half of his talent he would hold more value than Crameri IMO.

Absolutely agree. Note the key word in any conversation about Higgins - IF!

[w3design]

So GWS would take the offer then?

They desperately need a mature ruckman. So it depends who else they got as an option. Clearly their preference might be for someone a couple of years younger, but if no one is offered who meets their specifications better.

But I have said repeatedly, I do not believe Boyd is the player they have their eye on. So if they could get a ruck for P1 [ especially an AA], and still get the guy they really want, why not.

[Webby]

Obviously everyone who posts on this site follows the Dogs pretty closely. They come to love the players - which is only natural and absolutely fair enough.

However I think that when a thread is posted with the sole intention of discussing potential trade outs, people have to force themselves to remove at least some emotion from the equation. The excuse of team chemistry could be used like a 'red button' to close down any constructive discussion on the topic. I find it frustrating as a reader.

It feels like the forum equivalent of bouncers entering a dance hall and leering at anyone who tries to dance! It's kind of the purpose of the thread..... actually, strike that, it IS the purpose of the thread! If you don't like dancing, then the dancehall's not the place for you..

Forget the players for 5 minutes. We've been patting them on the back for years. It's about US! The supporters. We need a flag! We should be demanding a flag and ruthlessly pursuing one.

I could give three fifths of FA about Will Minson's feelings if the price is right. A lot of Hawthorn people felt very sorry for Trent Croad in 2001. However, I bet they felt okay about the BOG performance of Luke Hodge in their 2008 premiership! Not to mention Sam Mitchell - who they got with the other pick.

At the time, on Hawthorn forums, I bet the red buttons of "Croad's a top bloke", "what about chemistry?" And "who are these unproven teenagers, anyway?" were being pushed. Don't rule out any avenue to a premiership, I say (peptides aside!).

Everyone and anyone's on the table if the price is right!

[chef]

Obviously everyone who posts on this site follows the Dogs pretty closely. They come to love the players - which is only natural and absolutely fair enough.

However I think that when a thread is posted with the sole intention of discussing potential trade outs, people have to force themselves to remove at least some emotion from the equation. The excuse of team chemistry could be used like a 'red button' to close down any constructive discussion on the topic. I find it frustrating as a reader.

It feels like the forum equivalent of bouncers entering a dance hall and leering at anyone who tries to dance! It's kind of the purpose of the thread..... actually, strike that, it IS the purpose of the thread! If you don't like dancing, then the dancehall's not the place for you..

Forget the players for 5 minutes. We've been patting them on the back for years. It's about US! The supporters. We need a flag! We should be demanding a flag and ruthlessly pursuing one.

I could give three fifths of FA about Will Minson's feelings if the price is right. A lot of Hawthorn people felt very sorry for Trent Croad in 2001. However, I bet they felt okay about the BOG performance of Luke Hodge in their 2008 premiership! Not to mention Sam Mitchell - who they got with the other pick.

At the time, on Hawthorn forums, I bet the red buttons of "Croad's a top bloke", "what about chemistry?" And "who are these unproven teenagers, anyway?" were being pushed. Don't rule out any avenue to a premiership, I say (peptides aside!).

Everyone and anyone's on the table if the price is right!

Don't agree. IMO you don't trade out required players who don't want to leave.

Two big flaws in the Minson trade IMO. 1, GWS aren't going to want someone that age at that price and 2, If Minson was convinced to be traded he would only want to go to a team in their window not a team still 5 years away.

Oh and who's going to be our ruckman next year?

[Webby]

Don't agree. IMO you don't trade out required players who don't want to leave.

Two big flaws in the Minson trade IMO. 1, GWS aren't going to want someone that age at that price and 2, If Minson was convinced to be traded it would only be to a team in their window not a team still 5 years away.

Not so sure about that. Minson's value has risen this season. The only issue for him is that he locked away a three-year deal prior to the start of the year. So if we were to say, "You can stay with us for $X on your current 2 year deal, but another club wants to offer you X + $200k p.a. over 3 years, you don't think he'd be interested?

Particularly if said club were about to sign Lance Franklin and you knew they were on the improve. This notion that anyone is reluctant to leave us and is a 'poor bloke' if they do, is wide of the mark. Ward, Brown, McGuinness, Hardie, Dempsey etc etc, are proof that its a two way street..... and money talks!

[chef]

Not so sure about that. Minson's value has risen this season. The only issue for him is that he locked away a three-year deal prior to the start of the year. So if we were to say, "You can stay with us for $X on your current 2 year deal, but another club wants to offer you X + $200k p.a. over 3 years, you don't think he'd be interested?

Particularly if said club were about to sign Lance Franklin and you knew they were on the improve. This notion that anyone is reluctant to leave us and is a 'poor bloke' if they do, is wide of the mark. Ward, Brown, McGuinness, Hardie, Dempsey etc etc, are proof that its a two way street..... and money talks!

I really don't think he'd be interested(I'm not saying anyone's a 'poor bloke'), this is a guy who'll quite probably be our Captain or Vice Captain next season.

Minson(and the club) has been building up to this moment(leading the ruck at the Dogs) for the nearly 10 years, and when we finally get there we're going to hock him for some magic beans(that's how this feels to me). Just can't see it, especially with Macca steering the ship.

Plus who's going to be first ruck next season?

Would you trade Libba or Griffen? as Melbourne are willing to put their number 2 pick on the table for midfielders.

[Webby]

I really don't think he'd be interested(I'm not saying anyone's a 'poor bloke'), this is a guy who'll quite probably be our Captain or Vice Captain next season.

Minson(and the club) has been building up to this moment(leading the ruck at the Dogs) for the nearly 10 years, and when we finally get there we're going to hock him for some magic beans(that's how this feels to me). Just can't see it, especially with Macca steering the ship.

Plus who's going to be first ruck next season?

Would you trade Libba or Griffen? as Melbourne are willing to put their number 2 pick on the table for midfielders.

Okay,on your first point, I don't think Minson will be captain. His reputation in the media (fairly or unfairly) isn't great. Wrong front man.

On your second point, the time it took Will to develop is rear view mirror stuff. Irrelevant, IMO. It the value of the player today and going forward. Not what he used to cost.

On your third point, there are other free agent ruckmen around who could fill the role. Campbell is ready to switch duties with someone. It would actually help his development and although Will is a good ruckman, he's not a great forward line resting ruckman. I actually think Bellchambers would be get able as a FA. (And I know he's under a ban threat, but I foresee court injunctions and years of haggling over that). Also, I'm pretty certain I hate Essendon more than any other person on the planet... But I'm removing emotion from the exercise. Bellchambers is a good player and his upside's better than Will's. Another point is that Ayce Cordy is a ruckman - not a forward. If he is to make it, he needs to be backed there or ditched.

And would I trade Libba or Griffen? IF THE PRICE WAS RIGHT. As Libba bleeds R,W & B, is of WB Premiership window age and an excellent player, I'd lean towards keeping him. However, were GWS to offer Cameron in a straight swap, I'd have a good look at it! Griffen, like Minson, is not in a WB premiership window age group. I love him as a player, but, REMOVING EMOTION, if GCS were to offer Jaeger O'Meara for him, I'd take it (And, of course, that's highly unlikely. I'm just illustrating a point.)

I'm not advocating trading like mad men. I'm just saying all options should always at least be considered.

[chef]

Okay,on your first point, I don't think Minson will be captain. His reputation in the media (fairly or unfairly) isn't great. Wrong front man.

On your second point, the time it took Will to develop is rear view mirror stuff. Irrelevant, IMO. It the value of the player today and going forward. Not what he used to cost.

On your third point, there are other free agent ruckmen around who could fill the role. Campbell is ready to switch duties with someone. It would actually help his development and although Will is a good ruckman, he's not a great forward line resting ruckman. I actually think Bellchambers would be get able as a FA. (And I know he's under a ban threat, but I foresee court injunctions and years of haggling over that). Also, I'm pretty certain I hate Essendon more than any other person on the planet... But I'm removing emotion from the exercise. Bellchambers is a good player and his upside's better than Will's. Another point is that Ayce Cordy is a ruckman - not a forward. If he is to make it, he needs to be backed there or ditched.

And would I trade Libba or Griffen? IF THE PRICE WAS RIGHT. As Libba bleeds R,W & B, is of WB Premiership window age and an excellent player, I'd lean towards keeping him. However, were GWS to offer Cameron in a straight swap, I'd have a good look at it! Griffen, like Minson, is not in a WB premiership window age group. I love him as a player, but, REMOVING EMOTION, if GCS were to offer Jaeger O'Meara for him, I'd take it (And, of course, that's highly unlikely. I'm just illustrating a point.)

I'm not advocating trading like mad men. I'm just saying all options should always at least be considered.

Fair enough mate, respect your opinion. We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

[LostDoggy]

FWIW its worth I agree with Webby on the principle about trading anyone if the price is right. Eg Libba for Jack Martin and Garry Ablett. I get really annoyed on the 'team chemistry' thing. The players are not babies, they are paid professionals who will play with whom they are paid to play with, free agency underlines this. I would say chemistry should be a consideration but not, as some seem to suggest, an overriding factor.

But in this instance, I don't see the point of trading proven top line players for the chance of a top line player, or in this instance Boyd. In fact we are trading the slightly lower chance of a top liner (Pick 4) and a proven AA top liner for an unproven oversized kid. The maths don't add up for us, GWS on the other hand, would be licking their chops.

[Hotdog60]

As Sockeye says "Trading is the work of the devil". I think one has to tread a line with trading and be very careful as to not rip the soul out of the club.
If a player is a well respected player and is fulfilling his role in the team it could have a detrimental effect on how a player may perceive his worth to the club is his mates are move out just because the next best thing is available.
Player management is as much managerial as physiological. If you move players on you would have to be mindful of the flow on effect.
Look at Melbourne for example.

[chef]

As Sockeye says "Trading is the work of the devil". I think one has to tread a line with trading and be very careful as to not rip the soul out of the club.
If a player is a well respected player and is fulfilling his role in the team it could have a detrimental effect on how a player may perceive his worth to the club is his mates are move out just because the next best thing is available.
Player management is as much managerial as physiological. If you move players on you would have to be mindful of the flow on effect.
Look at Melbourne for example.

Yep, it's not a computer game.

[bulldogtragic]

There has to be some understanding with all players. You can't demand free agency while expecting their clubs to not look at trades that involve them. It's a business. AFL want TV rights, we want fair gate receipts and equalisation, players want even more money and even more flexibility, so be it. Businesses must look after itself.

[Hotdog60]

There has to be some understanding with all players. You can't demand free agency while expecting their clubs to not look at trades that involve them. It's a business. AFL want TV rights, we want fair gate receipts and equalisation, players want even more money and even more flexibility, so be it. Businesses must look after itself.

AFLPA was chasing free agency for players that wanted to move from their clubs for what ever reason (chasing a flag, money, back to their home state). AFLPA agenda was to help these types move with less resistance from their clubs.
Their plan would not include players that are happy with their clubs and want to stay. Enter Bob Murphy who talks of the tribal things and the clan who bleeds RWB.
I've been in 3 jobs in my 35 years in the work place my current position I've been here 18 years. I'm happy and content and will stay in my current position until they sack me or I retire. I would be gutted if my employer move out even if I was offered more money.
A happy work place will achieve more than a unhappy one.

[Greystache]

As Sockeye says "Trading is the work of the devil". I think one has to tread a line with trading and be very careful as to not rip the soul out of the club.
If a player is a well respected player and is fulfilling his role in the team it could have a detrimental effect on how a player may perceive his worth to the club is his mates are move out just because the next best thing is available.
Player management is as much managerial as physiological. If you move players on you would have to be mindful of the flow on effect.
Look at Melbourne for example.

That's a pretty limited view IMO. Most premiership teams have traded and traded very successfully, often given up a lot to get what they need. As a club we've always been risk adverse, willing to trade but only for fringe or damaged players with late picks. It's a half pregnant approach and never likely to bring success, if you have a need then you do what it takes to fill it, not play safe and hope you get lucky.

[boydogs]

If you have a need then you do what it takes to fill it, not play safe and hope you get lucky.

Spot on. We've got paid professionals to make these decisions, they need to back themselves in.

[bornadog]

If you want a good you have to give up a good player, but you don't give up a player you have limited of or need eg in our case a ruckman. If we had two Minsons, then fair enough.



As Sockeye says "Trading is the work of the devil".

PS: I miss SS

[Webby]

We've got paid professionals to make these decisions, they need to back themselves in.

List management, player development, drafting, trading and rookie listing. For me, they're the 5 boxes the club needs to tick.

I'm pretty happy with list management.. My opinion is that we are entering a period in which our core of kids are beginning to stand on their own two feet.

We should manage the list to charge ourselves for four years time. When Wallis, Libba, Dahlhaus, Stringer, Campbell, Roughead, Hunter, Hrovat, Macrae, Johanniesen, Talia etc. are all 22 to 26, I'd like to see them surrounded by as many quality 21-25 year olds as possible. That's what flags are built on.

I'm satisfied that the club are doing that. As of today, we've only got 10 players above 26 on our list. That's after Cross, Lower and Markovic's delistings. The only two players with real currency in that 26+ age group are Minson and Griffen... Thus the discussion about potentially trading one of them. Nothing personal against them. It's just to provoke some thoughts.

Then there's player development. For me, I think we've landed one of the best in the business in McCartney. So that's a tick.

With drafting, I think we did incredibly well last year. With pick 4 and 23 or so, we should do quite well again. In 2019, it'll be interesting to see how our 2013 pick 4 and a 34 year old Minson compare to Tom Boyd.... I fear Boyd will be a superstar. Nonetheless, we seem to have been drafting well.

We've always been quite good with the Rookie List. That's a tick. With our own VFL team, that should only get better. For me, that's the biggest tick.

Our weakest point has always been our trading. I think we've always been a bit timid and let other clubs make the running. It's an area we should look to improve by getting on the front foot a bit more.

[w3design]

Obviously everyone who posts on this site follows the Dogs pretty closely. They come to love the players - which is only natural and absolutely fair enough.

However I think that when a thread is posted with the sole intention of discussing potential trade outs, people have to force themselves to remove at least some emotion from the equation. The excuse of team chemistry could be used like a 'red button' to close down any constructive discussion on the topic. I find it frustrating as a reader.

It feels like the forum equivalent of bouncers entering a dance hall and leering at anyone who tries to dance! It's kind of the purpose of the thread..... actually, strike that, it IS the purpose of the thread! If you don't like dancing, then the dancehall's not the place for you..

Forget the players for 5 minutes. We've been patting them on the back for years. It's about US! The supporters. We need a flag! We should be demanding a flag and ruthlessly pursuing one.

I could give three fifths of FA about Will Minson's feelings if the price is right. A lot of Hawthorn people felt very sorry for Trent Croad in 2001. However, I bet they felt okay about the BOG performance of Luke Hodge in their 2008 premiership! Not to mention Sam Mitchell - who they got with the other pick.

At the time, on Hawthorn forums, I bet the red buttons of "Croad's a top bloke", "what about chemistry?" And "who are these unproven teenagers, anyway?" were being pushed. Don't rule out any avenue to a premiership, I say (peptides aside!).

Everyone and anyone's on the table if the price is right!

Yes Webby modern football is a business. But does it need to become a soulless business. Do we need to reduce our code to a mercenary situation akin to Rugby League or EPL ?
I for one hope not, as despite having loved the game for decades, I am certain I would lose interest completely if we finally lowered ourselves to that sort of level.

For the fans I am pretty sure it is not about the business of running a team, or a competition, but purely about the emotion. And the game surely is only there for the fans. There are easier ways for investors and others to make money.

Your point about all the good players who we have traded/lost in the past misses a couple of points. First, it was often about 'business' at the time, as we needed money to survive, and could not equal or outbid offers from wealthier clubs.
Secondly, did doing it help us win a premiership? Clearly not ! So it is hardly supportive of the notion that shifting players out is a route to success.
In fact, had we been able to retain a bunch of the champions we lost at one stage [ the Dempsey etc. era], we may well have had a pretty good shot at one or more flags ourselves.
Yes this is an era where the AFLPA, and to an extent the business men who run the League are trying to whittle away the traditional basis of the game, but that does not mean we have to encourage it.

If the players and clubs are to behave in a totally mercenary manner with no concession to loyalty, why should the fans? This applies equally to the code, and to individual clubs.

Players will continue to be traded, but for mine that should be influenced strongly by whether or not that is their preference or not, rather than them being viewed not as people, but simply as game chips.

[bulldogtragic]

Yes Webby modern football is a business. But does it need to become a soulless business. Do we need to reduce our code to a mercenary situation akin to Rugby League or EPL ?
I for one hope not, as despite having loved the game for decades, I am certain I would lose interest completely if we finally lowered ourselves to that sort of level.

For the fans I am pretty sure it is not about the business of running a team, or a competition, but purely about the emotion. And the game surely is only there for the fans. There are easier ways for investors and others to make money.

Your point about all the good players who we have traded/lost in the past misses a couple of points. First, it was often about 'business' at the time, as we needed money to survive, and could not equal or outbid offers from wealthier clubs.
Secondly, did doing it help us win a premiership? Clearly not ! So it is hardly supportive of the notion that shifting players out is a route to success.
In fact, had we been able to retain a bunch of the champions we lost at one stage [ the Dempsey etc. era], we may well have had a pretty good shot at one or more flags ourselves.
Yes this is an era where the AFLPA, and to an extent the business men who run the League are trying to whittle away the traditional basis of the game, but that does not mean we have to encourage it.

If the players and clubs are to behave in a totally mercenary manner with no concession to loyalty, why should the fans? This applies equally to the code, and to individual clubs.

Players will continue to be traded, but for mine that should be influenced strongly by whether or not that is their preference or not, rather than them being viewed not as people, but simply as game chips.
I would prefer a premiership than the solace of having 42 top blokes on a list who can't win one. Emotion is nice, premierships (I assume) are freakin brilliant.

[The bulldog tragician]

I heard Brendan McCartney speaking about the Moloney Ottens trade at Geelong. Intriguingly he said it delivered the Cats a flag while saying he would never be part of something like that again ie trading out a popular player who really didn't want to leave. Said he would prefer to grow our own. Rather contradictory and I'd have loved to hear him expand on that thinking.

[AndrewP6]

I heard Brendan McCartney speaking about the Moloney Ottens trade at Geelong. Intriguingly he said it delivered the Cats a flag while saying he would never be part of something like that again ie trading out a popular player who really didn't want to leave. Said he would prefer to grow our own. Rather contradictory and I'd have loved to hear him expand on that thinking.

Sounds like he either didn't agree with it at the time, or he did and he changed his mind.

[chef]

I heard Brendan McCartney speaking about the Moloney Ottens trade at Geelong. Intriguingly he said it delivered the Cats a flag while saying he would never be part of something like that again ie trading out a popular player who really didn't want to leave. Said he would prefer to grow our own. Rather contradictory and I'd have loved to hear him expand on that thinking.

Great news.

[bulldogtragic]

Great news.
Subjective. :)

[chef]

Subjective. :)

Certainly is.

[Webby]

Your point about all the good players who we have traded/lost in the past misses a couple of points. First, it was often about 'business' at the time, as we needed money to survive, and could not equal or outbid offers from wealthier clubs.
Secondly, did doing it help us win a premiership? Clearly not !.

I think you may have missed the crux of what I was saying, which was that players have often left FFC by choice. David Thorpe, Robbie McGhee, Laurie Sandilands, George Bissett, Bernie Quinlan, Garry Dempsey, Ian Dunstan, Alan Stoneham, Kelvin Templeton, Jim Edmond, Brad Hardie, Tony McGuinness, Kim Koster etc etc. Whether via good trades, bad trades or something in the middle, they wanted to leave. That's the point - that its a two way street.

The other thing is that in the 1970's there was no salary cap nor was there a draft. We were poor, so we benefitted from trading players for cash. (aka selling them!) So it's ALWAYS been a business! The only difference was that the mission in the late 70's to early 80's was survival. The Templeton sale bankrolled the club for some years. There's a fair argument to say that, had we held onto KT, 1989 would've arrived 5 years early!

Nowadays, with a draft, a cap and free agency, it's a different scenario. Rather than trading to stay afloat, we're trading to pursue a flag. As much as we p1ss and moan about the AFL (and I'm one of the worst!), the AFL's equalisation fund, draft and salary cap are the best thing to happen to the FFC/WBFC.... Ever. We now have a reasonable shot at a flag. I'm not at all nostalgic for the 1970's! Those were tough times! I like today's scenario where I genuinely feel we could be within 5 years of a flag at any moment... If we play our cards right.. And the sooner we start exhausting every angle, the better. IMO.

[bulldogtragic]

I think you may have missed the crux of what I was saying, which was that players have often left FFC by choice. David Thorpe, Robbie McGhee, Laurie Sandilands, George Bissett, Bernie Quinlan, Garry Dempsey, Ian Dunstan, Alan Stoneham, Kelvin Templeton, Jim Edmond, Brad Hardie, Tony McGuinness, Kim Koster etc etc. Whether via good trades, bad trades or something in the middle, they wanted to leave. That's the point - that its a two way street.

The other thing is that in the 1970's there was no salary cap nor was there a draft. We were poor, so we benefitted from trading players for cash. (aka selling them!) So it's ALWAYS been a business! The only difference was that the mission in the late 70's to early 80's was survival. The Templeton sale bankrolled the club for some years. There's a fair argument to say that, had we held onto KT, 1989 would've arrived 5 years early!

Nowadays, with a draft, a cap and free agency, it's a different scenario. Rather than trading to stay afloat, we're trading to pursue a flag. As much as we p1ss and moan about the AFL (and I'm one of the worst!), the AFL's equalisation fund, draft and salary cap are the best thing to happen to the FFC/WBFC.... Ever. We now have a reasonable shot at a flag. I'm not at all nostalgic for the 1970's! Those were tough times! I like today's scenario where I genuinely feel we could be within 5 years of a flag at any moment... If we play our cards right.. And the sooner we start exhausting every angle, the better. IMO.
*Cough* Nathan Brown *cough*

[The Doctor]

David Thorpe, Robbie McGhee, Laurie Sandilands, George Bissett, Bernie Quinlan, Garry Dempsey, Ian Dunstan, Alan Stoneham, Kelvin Templeton,

not to mention a couple of brownlow medallists in Barry Round and Brian Wilson or stars like Peter Featherby and Ray Huppatz.

[LostDoggy]

interesting discussion. I actually think this trade and draft period is one of the most crucial in setting the team up for a premiership. It will be really interesting to see what happens. I think the club is in a position where other clubs' players will want to come to us, they see the development path we are on, and they see McCartney who it seems has a great reputation for developing not just players but people - something that is very important now post-Essendon.

[F'scary]

One of the golden rumours guys but seriously if Higgins got over his injuries how damaging would he be in a forward line


Without the horrendous injuries Higgins would be an A grader without a shadow of a doubt imo.

Yes, his forward of the ball work when we are 10 goals ahead always impresses.

[LostDoggy]

Yes, his forward of the ball work when we are 10 goals ahead always impresses.

Crameri is supposed to be poor defensively considering his speed.
Higgins is one of our most creative ball users going inside 50 - not that he always hits the target but he makes things happen.

[LostDoggy]

As far as I'm concerned we must keep pick 4. I want to build up the team with a high first round draft pick because that is where we have the best chance of getting quality that suits our specific needs.

My first preference is for an inside - outside mid who can play half back because he is an elite user of the ball.

What we need are players of good character who can will themselves to win and who can sacrifice their game for the team. For me, structure, game plan, systems are vitally important; getting players into the team who can learn to adhere to these in different situations is the name of the game.

I do not want Boyd - he will be just too expensive. I don't care how good he is. We can't get him and selling the farm to try is just ridiculous.

It is also ludicrous to suggest we trade out Minson. We don't have the ruck stocks now to operate without him. I know how hard it was for us re clearances when Peter Street was our ruckman.

I will be devastated if we trade out players like Minson for some magic bean solution.

[LostDoggy]

Forget the players for 5 minutes. We've been patting them on the back for years. It's about US! The supporters. We need a flag! We should be demanding a flag and ruthlessly pursuing one.


Supporters aren't there to demand anything. You're there to support. If you want to demand, get on the board. The idea that 40-odd blokes who put their bodies on the line each week owe me, as a fan, anything at all is offensive and just plain narcissistic.



I could give three fifths of FA about Will Minson's feelings if the price is right. A lot of Hawthorn people felt very sorry for Trent Croad in 2001. However, I bet they felt okay about the BOG performance of Luke Hodge in their 2008 premiership! Not to mention Sam Mitchell - who they got with the other pick.


Ok, so how did Freo feel? Two sides to every trade, mate, and no guarantee yours is the side that floats. Hawks made a killing, good on em, don't let that start you on trading out every bloke on the list.


I really don't think he'd be interested(I'm not saying anyone's a 'poor bloke'), this is a guy who'll quite probably be our Captain or Vice Captain next season.

Minson(and the club) has been building up to this moment(leading the ruck at the Dogs) for the nearly 10 years, and when we finally get there we're going to hock him for some magic beans(that's how this feels to me). Just can't see it, especially with Macca steering the ship.

Plus who's going to be first ruck next season?

Would you trade Libba or Griffen? as Melbourne are willing to put their number 2 pick on the table for midfielders.

Yep. It's rubbish, really. Desperation coming before rationality. I'd need to see some solid arguments for how Boyd is going to offer more than both Minson and whomever we have yes on for pick 4 together. Solid means something better than “he's the messiah!”


List management, player development, drafting, trading and rookie listing. For me, they're the 5 boxes the club needs to tick.

I'm pretty happy with list management.. My opinion is that we are entering a period in which our core of kids are beginning to stand on their own two feet.

We should manage the list to charge ourselves for four years time. When Wallis, Libba, Dahlhaus, Stringer, Campbell, Roughead, Hunter, Hrovat, Macrae, Johanniesen, Talia etc. are all 22 to 26, I'd like to see them surrounded by as many quality 21-25 year olds as possible. That's what flags are built on.

I'm satisfied that the club are doing that. As of today, we've only got 10 players above 26 on our list. That's after Cross, Lower and Markovic's delistings. The only two players with real currency in that 26+ age group are Minson and Griffen... Thus the discussion about potentially trading one of them. Nothing personal against them. It's just to provoke some thoughts.

Then there's player development. For me, I think we've landed one of the best in the business in McCartney. So that's a tick.

With drafting, I think we did incredibly well last year. With pick 4 and 23 or so, we should do quite well again. In 2019, it'll be interesting to see how our 2013 pick 4 and a 34 year old Minson compare to Tom Boyd.... I fear Boyd will be a superstar. Nonetheless, we seem to have been drafting well.

We've always been quite good with the Rookie List. That's a tick. With our own VFL team, that should only get better. For me, that's the biggest tick.

Our weakest point has always been our trading. I think we've always been a bit timid and let other clubs make the running. It's an area we should look to improve by getting on the front foot a bit more.

Wait, you lost me. So, we've only two players over 26 that are any good (ie currency)? And you want to trade both of them!?

Fans and list management go together like Carey and Archer.

[bornadog]

One player we may be using to trade out is Wood.

[LostDoggy]

*Cough* Nathan Brown *cough*

*cough* hate the tosser, karma always gets ya *cough/snigger*

[LostDoggy]

One player we may be using to trade out is Wood.

Something you've heard from the credible or something you personally feel should be on the table BAD?

[bornadog]

Something you've heard from the credible or something you personally feel should be on the table BAD?

Let's say a little birdy told me.

[Webby]

Supporters aren't there to demand anything. You're there to support. If you want to demand, get on the board. The idea that 40-odd blokes who put their bodies on the line each week owe me, as a fan, anything at all is offensive and just plain narcissistic.

On the first bit 'we' referred to the club as a whole. On the second point, about players putting their bodies on the line for me (for $300k per year of our supporters' money) and somehow being beyond reproach is mind boggling! To describe the suggestion that the fans wearing R, W & B are narcissistic or offensive for expecting the players & officials wearing R, W & B to pursue a flag is simply mind boggling!!! As Plough Wallace once said, "If I see one more bloke in here, patting you blokes on the back, saying well done, you tried hard, I'LL SPEW UP!" My whole point is that the club as a whole needs to keep pushing up the bar to become more aggressive and ruthless and NOT the cuddly, lovable losers that we've been for nearly 60 years!

So, no, I won't cop that I'm a narcissist nor will I cop that I'm being offensive. Telstra should hire you to address their shareholders at their next annual meeting. You can tell them that they're being narcissistic or offensive for demanding that the company meet its Objective.. Particularly if they haven't done so for 60 years!!

Ok, so how did Freo feel? Two sides to every trade, mate, and no guarantee yours is the side that floats. Hawks made a killing, good on em, don't let that start you on trading out every bloke on the list.[/QUOTE]

That's a timid "Might lose, so don't play" mantra! If you want to make 100 runs, you have to play some shots! Of course there's a balance between playing at the right delivery and the wrong one. If you're stupid enough to play at rubbish and get out like Freo did, them's the breaks! The point is batting well - but you've got to ne at the crease to do so! And you can always let the ball go through to the keeper!


Yep. It's rubbish, really. Desperation coming before rationality. I'd need to see some solid arguments for how Boyd is going to offer more than both Minson and whomever we have yes on for pick 4 together. Solid means something better than “he's the messiah!”

That's fair enough. I see it as a close run thing. Just pointing out that it's a subject worth discussing - not simply shut down by a vocal, parochial few.


Wait, you lost me. So, we've only two players over 26 that are any good (ie currency)? And you want to trade both of them!?

No, you're taking liberties with my words there by combining "any good" with "worth currency". I think Gia and Murphy are champions, but at 30+ they have little if any trade currency. I think Minson has 5 years left in him and Griffen perhaps 4. As I don't expect us to enter a premiership window for 4 years, I raise the question (just the question) about potentially trading. I'm under no illusions that I'm a decision maker - I'm just another average Joe member.


Fans and list management go together like Carey and Archer.

You could say that about 60% of the subjects discussed on this forum. I don't think any of us are under any illusions that we're managing the list.. Just discussion, which is kind of the point of WOOF, isn't it?

[Greystache]

Ok, so how did Freo feel? Two sides to every trade, mate, and no guarantee yours is the side that floats. Hawks made a killing, good on em, don't let that start you on trading out every bloke on the list.

Fremantle got Trent Croad (who they later traded back to Hawthorn for a first round pick) and Luke McPharlin who has played 200 games and will be the FB in their next team of the century.

Many argue Fremantle got the better end of the deal but Hawthorn got what they needed.

[G-Mo77]

Let's say a little birdy told me.

The voices in your head aren't a little birdy. ;)

Seriously I do like him and think he was missed badly for most of the season. JJ's improvement and Goodes coming on board have eaten into his role but I'd like to think a healthy Wood would hold out Goodes long term. I think he'd have good value in the open market so we should be listening if there is interest.

[1eyedog]

[QUOTE=BornAScragger;345739]Supporters aren't there to demand anything. You're there to support. If you want to demand, get on the board. The idea that 40-odd blokes who put their bodies on the line each week owe me, as a fan, anything at all is offensive and just plain narcissistic


Call me narcissistic but those players are on 400k (I know for a reason) so it's not like they're putting their bodies on the line for nothing, If I had the talent I would do it for half as much. A large amount (nearly 2 million) of money comes from members each year, surely we must expect something in return? Some members from other clubs that I work with see their membership payment as tax and demand good policy from the club, (and good performances from the players) in return.

It's not uncommon.

[G-Mo77]

Call me narcissistic but those players are on 400k (I know for a reason) so it's not like they're putting their bodies on the line for nothing, If I had the talent I would do it for half as much. A large amount (nearly 2 million) of money comes from members each year, surely we must expect something in return? Some members I know almost see their membership payment as tax and demand good policy from the club in return.

I'd do it for free. I miss playing every week I watch football. Would love to have my time all over again.

[1eyedog]

One player we may be using to trade out is Wood.

He is the one replaceable player we have who has the highest currency IMO. My problem is if he didn't have dodgy legs he would be one of the first picked.

[1eyedog]

I'd do it for free. I miss playing every week I watch football. Would love to have my time all over again.

Yes indeed me too.

[1eyedog]

[QUOTE=Webby;345780]That's a timid "Might lose, so don't play" mantra! If you want to make 100 runs, you have to play some shots!

Unless you're Bill Lawry (sorry first thing I thought when I read this). I'll stop triple posting now...

[chef]

The voices in your head aren't a little birdy. ;)
.

Bit harsh.

[bornadog]

The voices in your head aren't a little birdy. ;).

That is fine believe it or not.

[G-Mo77]

Bit harsh.


That is fine believe it or not.

Clearly I was joking.

[chef]

Clearly I was joking.

:D I knew that.

[Webby]

He is the one replaceable player we have who has the highest currency IMO. My problem is if he didn't have dodgy legs he would be one of the first picked.

I know we've been very stiff with Williams and Higgins, but I'm always reluctant to trade out young (or younger) players with clear talent who've struggled a bit with injury. It used to kill me watching Magic McLean win two B&f's with Brisbane after we ditched him as a 24yo.. We were in a premiership window in 1992 and McLean won Bears B&f's in 1991 & 1993. He'd have been very, very handy.

If Wood were 2 years older, I'd say absolutely look at it.. However as he's 24, my instinct says to proceed with caution.... Unless someone makes us an offer we can't refuse.

[1eyedog]

I know we've been very stiff with Williams and Higgins, but I'm always reluctant to trade out young (or younger) players with clear talent who've struggled a bit with injury. It used to kill me watching Magic McLean win two B&f's with Brisbane after we ditched him as a 24yo.. We were in a premiership window in 1992 and McLean won Bears B&f's in 1991 & 1993. He'd have been very, very handy.

If Wood were 2 years older, I'd say absolutely look at it.. However as he's 24, my instinct says to proceed with caution.... Unless someone makes us an offer we can't refuse.

One of the first picked in terms of age bracket required at the club and potential upside (i.e. taking the game on). This was evident in how quick he came back into the side after doing his hammy and not really finding any form at Willi. Given the improvement in JJ and the promise of Hrovat and MaCrae we may have identified other players who can provide the drive we have always wanted from Wood.

Wood is absolutely not expendable, aside from his injury problems he has disposal issues and appears to be completely blind-sided when setting off on a run. He runs into trouble as much as he runs out of it. JJ's improvement means that Wood should be considered in any potential trade that nets us a desired player.

[GVGjr]

One player we may be using to trade out is Wood.

I think it's a good move. We can cover him

[KT31]

One player we may be using to trade out is Wood.

Do you think this is based on another club wanting Wood or us just putting him out there ?

[F'scary]

good thread

[jeemak]

I think it's a good move. We can cover him

I'm not so sure.

With some continuity Wood will provide us with improved defensive output, and run from the half back line after Murphy retires. He is a player able to play on taller opponents than he is, and expose them for a lack of pace. Hopefully with more experience he'll be able to tighten up on clever players of his height, and those smaller than him.

He has suffered from missing a lot of football, and this is demonstrated by a lack of awareness in some situations when defending and carrying the ball, though I think 1eyedog hits the nail when he talks about his potential upside. His ball usage does require work, though we've seen that can be improved through hard work and concentration.

With Wood fit, and JJ fit I'm pretty confident Goodes will find himself with limited opportunities next year, of course only if BAD's mail isn't on the money.

[Mantis]

I'm not so sure.

With some continuity Wood will provide us with improved defensive output, and run from the half back line after Murphy retires. He is a player able to play on taller opponents than he is, and expose them for a lack of pace. Hopefully with more experience he'll be able to tighten up on clever players of his height, and those smaller than him.

He has suffered from missing a lot of football, and this is demonstrated by a lack of awareness in some situations when defending and carrying the ball, though I think 1eyedog hits the nail when he talks about his potential upside. His ball usage does require work, though we've seen that can be improved through hard work and concentration.

With Wood fit, and JJ fit I'm pretty confident Goodes will find himself with limited opportunities next year, of course only if BAD's mail isn't on the money.

Does Wood lack of ball winning abilities counter these claims?

He struggles to get the thing 10-15 times a game and with his obvious skill deficiencies he really doesn't hurt the opposition does he.

[GVGjr]

Does Wood lack of ball winning abilities counter these claims?

He struggles to get the thing 10-15 times a game and with his obvious skill deficiencies he really doesn't hurt the opposition does he.

I compared his stats to Howard's a while back and I think Howard was getting more of the ball than Wood.

It's okay to have low stats but Wood should be a better defensive stopper than what he is and as you rightly point out his skill level isn't great.

He's a decent player but I question how much we really need him.

[Mofra]

Wood is absolutely not expendable, aside from his injury problems he has disposal issues and appears to be completely blind-sided when setting off on a run. He runs into trouble as much as he runs out of it. JJ's improvement means that Wood should be considered in any potential trade that nets us a desired player.
If we get Docherty than Wood is surplus to requirements.
He has enourmous potential and is an amazing athlete as was as the ability to play taller than his height - but he's a "straight line" rebounder who doesn't regularly find enough of the ball.

Quite possibly our only tradeable player with currency - you have to give up quality to get quality

[always right]

I like Wood because he has unique attributes and that horrible word "potential". Having said that he is not one of our untouchables and for the right trade I'm comfortable for him to be on the table. The obvious question for the club is not just whether his best is going to be better than the option being offered....but how likely we are to see it. It concerns me that Wood is one of those players (and we have several) who is perrennially injured.

[1eyedog]

If we get Docherty than Wood is surplus to requirements.
He has enourmous potential and is an amazing athlete as was as the ability to play taller than his height - but he's a "straight line" rebounder who doesn't regularly find enough of the ball.

Quite possibly our only tradeable player with currency - you have to give up quality to get quality

Yes, I agree. There is one of those intangibles about Wood though isn't there, that when he plays super well the team plays well and we look a much better outfit. Goes to show the value of a good rebounding defender and again you're absolutely right re. Docherty.

[Mofra]

Yes, I agree. There is one of those intangibles about Wood though isn't there, that when he plays super well the team plays well and we look a much better outfit. Goes to show the value of a good rebounding defender and again you're absolutely right re. Docherty.
Wood had a blinder against Stevie J last year or the year before, really took him out of the game despite a height and weight advantage - although 190cm or so, Stevie doesn't really play tall though.

Wood will develop into a "good" player, but many senior footballers say that the HBF is the easiest position to play. I wanta rebounder that gets it 20+ times a match and uses it, not 12-15.

I'm a big fan of Wood but he is "athlete first, footballer second" category and B-Mac seems to be bulding a team of "footballer first, athlete second" types.

[Cyberdoggie]

Does Wood lack of ball winning abilities counter these claims?

He struggles to get the thing 10-15 times a game and with his obvious skill deficiencies he really doesn't hurt the opposition does he.

I've seen VFL games we he has absolutely dominated, i think when he had to play some more defensive roles a couple of years back he stopped being as aggressive on the rebound.

Perhaps as you mentioned his kicking accuracy may of also had an impact in his confidence to run the ball, and now like Addison and Wallis he just takes the safe option.

I still think he's a valuable player for us and perhaps with an injury free pre-season we will see that.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I thought Wood showed some encouraging signs upon returning to the side this year.

Showed more composure and used the ball better. Also broke the lines a few times at the right time.

[AndrewP6]

JJ mentioned as a possible trade...

http://m.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/essendon-is-keen-on-western-bulldog-jason-johannisen/story-fni5f6kv-1226717988663

[SlimPickens]

JJ mentioned as a possible trade...

http://m.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/essendon-is-keen-on-western-bulldog-jason-johannisen/story-fni5f6kv-1226717988663

No way...tell em they're dreaming!

[bulldogtragic]

JJ mentioned as a possible trade...

http://m.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/essendon-is-keen-on-western-bulldog-jason-johannisen/story-fni5f6kv-1226717988663
*!*!*!*! I hate Essendon.

Gumby will get delisted, yet we will give up a future gun while they refuse to consider this in part of them losing Crameri.

Any wonder everyone hates them, especially at trade time. FFS.

No one will match the offer in the PSD... Go make relations to yourself Essendon, well have Crameri and JJ while you have your first 2 round picks.. Oh that's right, you don't have them because you put untested drugs into your players.

[bulldogtragic]

Oh and I'm sure JJ is just begging to go there...

[ledge]

From what I read Essendon says they want him but we are going to offer him another contract it's a bit like saying we want Gary Ablett but we aren't going to get him.

[GVGjr]

From what I read Essendon says they want him but we are going to offer him another contract it's a bit like saying we want Gary Ablett but we aren't going to get him.

Essendon have identified JJ as a talented player and want it to be known they are interested in him. That's about it though.
We don't have to let him go

[Remi Moses]

*!*!*!*! I hate Essendon.

Gumby will get delisted, yet we will give up a future gun while they refuse to consider this in part of them losing Crameri.

Any wonder everyone hates them, especially at trade time. FFS.

No one will match the offer in the PSD... Go make relations to yourself Essendon, well have Crameri and JJ while you have your first 2 round picks.. Oh that's right, you don't have them because you put untested drugs into your players.

This is the club who wanted Scott West, and were willing to trade... Wait for it
Some Patsy called Darren Walsh ( whom they delisted)
:eek:
This club is like negeoiating with North Korea!
Just pick up Crameri in the pre- season draft

[chef]

JJ mentioned as a possible trade...

http://m.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/essendon-is-keen-on-western-bulldog-jason-johannisen/story-fni5f6kv-1226717988663

Like this bit.......

'It is understood the Dogs have no plans to trade the South-African born utility and had earmarked another contract extension for the 21-year-old early next season.'

[jeemak]

Like this bit.......

'It is understood the Dogs have no plans to trade the South-African born utility and had earmarked another contract extension for the 21-year-old early next season.'

I like how people get outraged at the whole situation and start getting upset and cussing as if Emmanuel Goldstein has appeared on their monitors!

[Mofra]

I like how people get outraged at the whole situation and start getting upset and cussing as if Emmanuel Goldstein has appeared on their monitors!
They have asked, we've said no, an article is born.
I'm not sure I could name 10 players on our list I'd want more than JJ, I rate him that highly.

[azabob]

They have asked, we've said no, an article is born.
I'm not sure I could name 10 players on our list I'd want more than JJ, I rate him that highly.

Totally agree Mofra. Reality was JJ was almost the one and only highlight of our season before he got injured.

He is one player we must not let go.

[ReLoad]

They have asked, we've said no, an article is born.
I'm not sure I could name 10 players on our list I'd want more than JJ, I rate him that highly.

I too really rate JJ.

That being said, if the right trade came up it would be worth investigating, but Gumby the nuff nuff is hardly the right trade.

I think its time to seriously unload on the bumbers and unleash a bit of havoc on their list.


In some good but also bad news our twins were accepted into Essendon Primary School next year, We refer to prep as "Preptides" I would expect that by the end of grade 6 they will look like former East German swimmers.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Its posturing from Essendon as they are increasingly appearing resigned to losing Crameri

[bulldogtragic]

If Sam Reid is worth 3rd round compo, DFA will land us pick 5!

But seriously, if moves to a team who can use him better next year (I don't see him playing 10 games with us), and we get pick 40 or 44. It could be a win all round for him and both clubs.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Its posturing from Essendon as they are increasingly appearing resigned to losing Crameri

That's how I read it too.

I really like the idea of getting Crameri, but I would like to see us play hard (read: screw Essendon) and get him through the PSD.

[comrade]

That's how I read it too.

I really like the idea of getting Crameri, but I would like to see us play hard (read: screw Essendon) and get him through the PSD.

I can't see that happening given BMac's links to the Bombers.

[bulldogtragic]

I can't see that happening given BMac's links to the Bombers.
Crameri seems a little more loyal than Crameri in the face of a big offer.

[EasternWest]

*!*!*!*! I hate Essendon.

Gumby will get delisted, yet we will give up a future gun while they refuse to consider this in part of them losing Crameri.

Any wonder everyone hates them, especially at trade time. FFS.

I don't care for Essendon either, but I don't really agree with your outrage.

They're trying to look after their interests, and talking up a stupid trade is sometimes enough to get people thiking about it.

FWIW I'm with you in relation to the actual trade. I'm not particularly keen on Gumbleton anyway, and I reckon our club is keen enough on JJ that we'll lock him away anyhow so it's a moot point.


This is the club who wanted Scott West, and were willing to trade... Wait for it
Some Patsy called Darren Walsh ( whom they delisted)
:eek:
This club is like negeoiating with North Korea!
Just pick up Crameri in the pre- season draft

I'd say our trading track record has been equally stupid at times. We had two opportunities to offload Josh Hill for reasonable picks and our insistence on playing hardball over him cost us in the end when we got pick 49 for him (Pearce, who's still an unknown) when IIRC we could have got a 2nd rounder?

[Remi Moses]

It's not so much the "stupid" part ( we've had some shockers) it's more how disengenous they are .
The whole article is just another poor one , which becomes a moot point when the club says they have no intention of trading JJ.

[bulldogtragic]

My stupid trade suggestion... Picks 40 and 41 (DFA compo) for Crameri to go with their pick 45.

[SlimPickens]

My stupid trade suggestion... Picks 40 and 41 (DFA compo) for Crameri to go with their pick 45.

Do you think we will actually get compensated for DFA? I'd be surprised if we actually get anything.

[Bulldog Revolution]

That's how I read it too.

I really like the idea of getting Crameri, but I would like to see us play hard (read: screw Essendon) and get him through the PSD.

Wouldnt it be terrificly handy timing if Essendon players were allowed to leave because of the sports science governance issues?

[bulldogtragic]

Do you think we will actually get compensated for DFA? I'd be surprised if we actually get anything.
I'm purely guessing. Sam Reid was 3rd round compo, but different circumstances I know. Of Last years FA, I mark him closely to Moloney, that's the closest type IMO (on data, not style etc).

Moloney is 3 years older and had played about 140 games - DFA is younger and has played about 90.
Moloney was a PSD pick - DFA was a second rounder
Both played about the same amount of games in the last year
Both were/could get 2 year deals on limited cash

Assuming those things were right, especially at least 2 years and better than minimum wage, then Moloney was compensated with a 3rd rounder. This is the obvious point of the system.

If it doesn't eventuate his way, then yes, we just get a spot opened up.

[bulldogtragic]

Just occurred to me,

Grant, Dahl, Campbell, Jones, Gia, Stringer and Crameri have contracts offered. Patton maybe considered. If so, that's 8 decent forwards. Plus Hrovat, Hunter and Cordy (11 possible forwards). I can't see Higgins AND Williams being needed in such circumstances to have 13 forwards (assuming we don't draft any forwards either).

Should either be nervous?

[Ghost Dog]

That article was just to stir up Bulldogs supporters. Media bait. So what's news? Every club would love JJ, if they could have him.
But JJ is going nowhere and looks forward to hooning about in the RW and B next season.

[Twodogs]

Essendon just have to get used to the idea that they are in a really bad spot trade wise. With the sanctions imposed on them they aren't in a position to be dictating terms when it comes to trading in players or Draft Picks. They are under the pump before negotiations even start and will just have to suck hard and long on the rough end of any pineapple that is pointed their way.

The AFL didn't punish them just so they could waltz back and do a bunch of deals that would see them restock their playing list with quality players for their cast offs. They will have to assume the position and take their medicine at the trade table.

Either that or they keep the Gumbletons and other Gumbys on their list and take the infield thrashing s that will come their way. They dragged the AFL's name through the mud with their actions over the last 2 years and now it's time for them to pay.

[GVGjr]

Just occurred to me,

Grant, Dahl, Campbell, Jones, Gia, Stringer and Crameri have contracts offered. Patton maybe considered. If so, that's 8 decent forwards. Plus Hrovat, Hunter and Cordy (11 possible forwards). I can't see Higgins AND Williams being needed in such circumstances to have 13 forwards (assuming we don't draft any forwards either).

Should either be nervous?

I don't believe there is a problem with either player. Williams is supposed to be very much in the plans for next season and I think the coach would rate Higgins.

Things can change but if I was going to speculate, there might be a couple of clubs interested in Higgins

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I don't believe there is a problem with either player. Williams is supposed to be very much in the plans for next season and I think the coach would rate Higgins.

Things can change but if I was going to speculate, there might be a couple of clubs interested in Higgins

I don't know why, because Williams' body breaks down with such tremendous regularity that he's lucky to still be on a list.

If Williams/Higgins come good, great, but I wouldn't be factoring them into any sort of genuine planning, particularly in terms of addressing our other needs at the trade/draft tables.

[KT31]

I don't know why, because Williams' body breaks down with such tremendous regularity that he's lucky to still be on a list.

If Williams/Higgins come good, great, but I wouldn't be factoring them into any sort of genuine planning, particularly in terms of addressing our other needs at the trade/draft tables.

I'm with this . how can any player be in any sort of plans if he is never on the field.
Smart management would be to cut losses where losses are.

[Remi Moses]

I don't know why, because Williams' body breaks down with such tremendous regularity that he's lucky to still be on a list.

If Williams/Higgins come good, great, but I wouldn't be factoring them into any sort of genuine planning, particularly in terms of addressing our other needs at the trade/draft tables.

Unfortunately I agree, and if they both stay on the park it should be looked upon as a bonus.

[1eyedog]

Unfortunately I agree, and if they both stay on the park it should be looked upon as a bonus.

I just can't see Williams making it. Anyone who puts out his shoulder trying to take an overhead mark is very much on the back foot in my opinion. It was one of the most innocuous things that I have seen lead to an injury on the football field.

[Twodogs]

I just can't see Williams making it. Anyone who puts out his shoulder trying to take an overhead mark is very much on the back foot in my opinion. It was one of the most innocuous things that I have seen lead to an injury on the football field.



He hurt his knee bouncing on the bouncy castle at the family day and missed a chunk of preseason the year he was drafted. Now that's innocuous.

[1eyedog]

He hurt his knee bouncing on the bouncy castle at the family day and missed a chunk of preseason the year he was drafted. Now that's innocuous.

I can understand landing the wrong way on a jumping castle, well sort of...but putting your shoulder out marking a football?

[FrediKanoute]

Just occurred to me,

Grant, Dahl, Campbell, Jones, Gia, Stringer and Crameri have contracts offered. Patton maybe considered. If so, that's 8 decent forwards. Plus Hrovat, Hunter and Cordy (11 possible forwards). I can't see Higgins AND Williams being needed in such circumstances to have 13 forwards (assuming we don't draft any forwards either).

Should either be nervous?

Williams I think will go back to CHB. Its where he is best suited and provides another cool head. He has talent to burn and we are a better side with him down back

Higgins......I think he will end up as a half forward, but he needs a break with injuries.

[Twodogs]

I can understand landing the wrong way on a jumping castle, well sort of...but putting your shoulder out marking a football?


I dislocated my shoulder turning over in bed at 3 in the morning once. To be fair I have had shoulder problems most of my life.

[mighty_west]

I dislocated my shoulder turning over in bed at 3 in the morning once. To be fair I have had shoulder problems most of my life.

It's not hard to do if you have shoulder issues, mine popped out numerous times by simply throwing s cricket ball, you'd have 3 or 4 throws and it would be fine, next throw and that feeling of feeling like you'd been shot in the shoulder, extreme pain.

[soupman]

Does anyone know where Patrick McCarthy, recent delistee of Carlton went wrong?

pick 34 in 2010 draft, and had some on here that rated him.

MJP had him going 10th:



10. GC
Need: Everything.
Selection: Pat McCarthy
Reason: Can play straight away in a Frawley style (half back/wing) with the potential to play as a key back in 3-4 years. Good runner, kicks it well – nice player.


GVGjr had him 18, Griffen#16 at 12

Rated on the AFL site in the top 25 with this description:

Patrick McCarthy (11 March 1992, 194cm, 79kg, South Australia): Tall, spindly defender who plays more as a flanker than a key-position player despite his height. Good leadership material. Loves to run downfield.

Was also apparently almost one of the players Gold Coast pre-selected.

Also had an Article (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/mccarthy-puts-his-best-foot-forward/story-e6freckc-1225949660392) talk him up.

Not sure he fits our needs but curious as to what happened.

[1eyedog]

I dislocated my shoulder turning over in bed at 3 in the morning once. To be fair I have had shoulder problems most of my life.

Ok I've never had shoulder issues as such, I've had some socket issues from fast bowling but they've never dislocated. I've heard that as soon as they go once they never feel the same again.

[F'scary]

Does anyone know where Patrick McCarthy, recent delistee of Carlton went wrong?

pick 34 in 2010 draft, and had some on here that rated him.

MJP had him going 10th:


GVGjr had him 18, Griffen#16 at 12

Rated on the AFL site in the top 25 with this description:


Was also apparently almost one of the players Gold Coast pre-selected.

Also had an Article (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/mccarthy-puts-his-best-foot-forward/story-e6freckc-1225949660392) talk him up.

Not sure he fits our needs but curious as to what happened.

This is what I like. Money Ball! Cool spot, Soup. :cool: Footywire lists him as 93kg and 1.96m. Played but 1 game - in 2012. Only 21 yrs 6 mths. Any intelligence woofers? I keep thinking of Tom Young, a steal at a swap for pick 71 and Mark Austin, delisted, rookied, earned some games, played a few decent ones.

[Go_Dogs]

Does anyone know where Patrick McCarthy, recent delistee of Carlton went wrong?

pick 34 in 2010 draft, and had some on here that rated him.

MJP had him going 10th:


GVGjr had him 18, Griffen#16 at 12

Rated on the AFL site in the top 25 with this description:


Was also apparently almost one of the players Gold Coast pre-selected.

Also had an Article (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/mccarthy-puts-his-best-foot-forward/story-e6freckc-1225949660392) talk him up.

Not sure he fits our needs but curious as to what happened.

I'm a little surprised as given his body shape he was always going to be a development player who'd take a few years to be AFL ready in a KP role. I haven't seen much of him since his drafting but in my eyes he'd be worth taking a closer look at.

[Twodogs]

It's not hard to do if you have shoulder issues, mine popped out numerous times by simply throwing s cricket ball, you'd have 3 or 4 throws and it would be fine, next throw and that feeling of feeling like you'd been shot in the shoulder, extreme pain.


Ok I've never had shoulder issues as such, I've had some socket issues from fast bowling but they've never dislocated. I've heard that as soon as they go once they never feel the same again.


Yep. Throwing cricket balls is how I hurt my shoulder in the first place.