Crameri

[bulldogtragic]

A mate sent me messgae telling me that Emma Quayle is saying pick 22 & a sweetener. I bloody hope not!!unless the sweetener is Cordy or Howard.
So you're saying a second round pick and first round pick player :)

[GVGjr]

A mate sent me messgae telling me that Emma Quayle is saying pick 22 & a sweetener. I bloody hope not!!unless the sweetener is Cordy or Howard.

She just tweeted that. I've responded with a mention of the PSD.

[bulldogtragic]

Robbo asked about Crameri, his response "gone".

[anfo27]

She just tweeted that. I've responded with a mention of the PSD.

We better not get bent over again!! I'm all for getting him in the PSD.

[GVGjr]

We better not get bent over again!! I'm all for getting him in the PSD.


Won't happen.

[always right]

I'd have thought pick 22 is fair. Please don't let the sweetener be Grant.

[GVGjr]

I'd have thought pick 22 is fair. Please don't let the sweetener be Grant.

The only sweetener that should get is a kg of Stevia. Given what they subjected their players to the effects of Stevia would be pretty mild in comparison.

[Bulldog4life]

I would have thought our 2nd rd pick was a fair price

Yep.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Pick 22 is absolutely a steep enough price to pay for Crameri - after all, if they wanted him or valued him so highly they could have just re-signed him

[bulldogtragic]

Pick 22 should get them Jon Marsh, so it's not a bad pick to get.

Wait for the screaming to start.

[The Pie Man]

Won't happen.

While we'd all obviously rather negotiate the best possible deal, I'd prefer it not drag close to the death either.

On the merits of this, I think he'll be good for us - talk of hoping to nab him via the PSD is fanciful in the extreme. I believe our forward line will develop into a multi option threat, and Liam Jones will benefit from this enormously.

If all as positive as Stevo et al are proclaiming, well done Dogs.

[Topdog]

I'd hope the sweetener is in our direction. Pick 22 is too much

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Wow these essendon fans love the smell of their own sh!t. Supposed unbiased journos reckon more than pick 22 is required. We better not pay overs

[always right]

I'd hope the sweetener is in our direction. Pick 22 is too much

Seriously? Pick 22 is fair for a bloke in his prime who McCartney obviously thinks can make a meaningful difference to our side.

[bulldogtragic]

22 is possibly Dayle Garlett, definantly Jon Marsh.

Fair trade.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'm with GVG. I'd look at alternative ways to get Crameri, but given McCartneys good relationship with Essendon I doubt we'll do that.

I can live with pick 22 but a sweetner? Again as GVG said, sure, a kg of Stevia.

[The Pie Man]

We'll need to give a little more than 22 to get this done. Not much, but would be very surprised to see 22 alone resolve this.

Be realistic guys

[always right]

Perhaps 22 and a trade of draft picks.

[bulldogtragic]

Perhaps 22 and a trade of draft picks.
22 and 40, for 46 and Crameri?

[jeemak]

My preference for the club would be for it to sustain a set strategy for acquiring players on what they believe is fair compensation, nothing more and nothing less.

If we have valued Crameri at 22 as part of an overall recruiting strategy then I think that's what we should focus on securing him for.

However, if an easy option of picking him up for a steal present itself aside from the strategy then the club should take it.

I just don't want to get caught out reaching for an outcome that is too risky and acting as a diversion to our overall objective.

[GVGjr]

Emma Q is pushing hard on Twitter that for pick 22 the Bombers are getting the worst of it especially given how much we are willing to pay him as a salary.

My view is if we base her logic on the salary paid and the output of the player then compensation for Goddard should have been pick one.

[bulldogtragic]

Twitter going nuts, Crameri to Dogs, 4 years, 2 million. Journos in on the discussion.

[F'scary]

The only sweetener that should get is a kg of Stevia.

What about a kg of Sativa?

[bulldogtragic]

Emma Q is pushing hard on Twitter that for pick 22 the Bombers are getting the worst of it especially given how much we are willing to pay him as a salary.

My view is if we base her logic on the salary paid and the output of the player then compensation for Goddard should have been pick one.
Saw that, I'll take it with a grain of salt.

[always right]

22 and 40, for 46 and Crameri?

Sounds reasonable

[bulldogtragic]

Jon Ralph tweeting Crameri wants out, and Essendon refusing to trade.

Strap yourself in!

[A Ford]

The sweetener giving them a pick for player that could still be suspended for two years.
Don't do it.

[anfo27]

Emma Q is pushing hard on Twitter that for pick 22 the Bombers are getting the worst of it especially given how much we are willing to pay him as a salary.

My view is if we base her logic on the salary paid and the output of the player then compensation for Goddard should have been pick one.

Why can't we just tell Crameri to go in the draft & we'll take him with pick 22 like Collingwood did with Ball?

[bulldogtragic]

Footy classified, ch9, saying Crameri has walked out.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Lloyd says Crameri a 2nd or 3rd forward. Pick 22 or PSD. Bring it on!

[GVGjr]

Jon Ralph tweeting Crameri wants out, and Essendon refusing to trade.

Strap yourself in!

My view is that we do to Essendon what they have done to every other club.
- All the way through the trade period we keep making the offer of #22, they will want more.
- We promise to sweeten the offer which peaks their interest but never quite get it done.
- We leave them high and dry at the deadline. Take #22 or there is no deal

If they don't deal
- We tell Crameri to go into the PSD because they were unreasonable and are messing with his livelihood.
- We use pick 22 on a quality youngster.

If they deal then Okay they get pick #22

We shouldn't let these guys dictate more than what we should pay at the trade table.

Happy to pay market rates but lets face it, no team would pick him in the first round of the draft.

[bulldogtragic]

My view is that we do to Essendon what they have done to every other club.
- All the way through the trade period we keep making the offer of #22, they will want more.
- We promise to sweeten the offer which peaks their interest but never quite get it done.
- We leave them high and dry at the deadline. Take #22 or there is no deal

If they don't deal
- We tell Crameri to go into the PSD because they were unreasonable and are messing with his livelihood.
- We use pick 22 on a quality youngster.

If they deal then Okay they get pick #22

We shouldn't let these guys dictate more than what we should pay at the trade table.

Happy to pay market rates but lets face it, no team would pick him in the first round of the draft.
Does Macca having personal relationships at Essendon help or hinder us?

To rephrase, does Macca have enough 'bastard' in him to say "yes, I know we go way back, but take 22 or take nothing. Call me when you've made your mind up".

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Does Macca having personal relationships at Essendon help or hinder us?

To rephrase, does Macca have enough 'bastard' in him to say "yes, I know we go way back, but take 22 or take nothing. Call me when you've made your mind up".

Don't think he is the type to get done over. But anyway won't it be Jason Mc doing the deal?

[whythelongface]

Does Macca having personal relationships at Essendon help or hinder us?

To rephrase, does Macca have enough 'bastard' in him to say "yes, I know we go way back, but take 22 or take nothing. Call me when you've made your mind up".

Isn't it up to the Jason McCartney to make these calls and do the wheeling and dealing.

[bulldogtragic]

Twitter from a loyal Essendon FC follower:

F*** OFF CRAMERI YOU WEAK C**T. GOO ROT AT FOOTSCRAY ENJOY THE WOODEN SPOON U PEZANT C**T


Really???? And it has favourites???

[GVGjr]

Does Macca having personal relationships at Essendon help or hinder us?

To rephrase, does Macca have enough 'bastard' in him to say "yes, I know we go way back, but take 22 or take nothing. Call me when you've made your mind up".

There is a Macca at the club who does. He will be the one pulling the strings now that B-Mac has said he wants Crameri. Leave it to J-Mac

[kruder]

Have real confidence in this club ATM, more so than ever. Crameri +Bontempelli+ 2012 draft+ father and sons+Griffin captain+ new president+Scarlo/Mooney+cracking in+ performance back end of 2012= Endless Possibilities.


Long way to go I know but it's nice to have some positive news on this blog.

[Bulldog4life]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/stewie-crameri-has-told-essendon-he-wants-to-be-traded-to-the-western-bulldogs/story-e6frf33l-1226726494640#.UkGDdH9v6IA



ESSENDON forward Stewart Crameri has told the Bombers he wants to be traded to the Western Bulldogs on a four-year deal.

But the Dons are determined to hang onto Crameri and have told him they are not prepared to trade him under any circumstances.

It will set up weeks of intense haggling between the clubs, which could see Crameri forced into the pre-season draft to get to the Dogs.

The Dogs have an early pick and ample salary cap room, but might have to give up a late first-round or early second-round pick to get their man.

Crameri had met with Essendon on Monday to discuss his prospects, but told the Dons he would accept a Dogs offer believed to be $1,8 million over four seasons tonight.

He is in hospital after having ankle surgery, but is determined to move to a new club.

The 25-year-old is Essendon’s leading forward when injury-free despite the inclusion of Joe Daniher this year and the lofty reputation of Michael Hurley.

[Cyberdoggie]

I guess the angrier the EFC fans are about it the more value he has to them.

Kind of like Callan Ward leaving us, remember the pain?


From what i've seen of J-Mac, he's pretty astute and doesn't look the type to 'bend over' to just get the deal done.

That is my impression anyway. I'll guess we'll see.

[comrade]

Love Essendon fans.

"Good riddance, he's just a bit part role player."

"So, pick 22 for a role player is fair value?"

"Absolutely not!"

[bulldogtragic]

If AFLPA get their way with FA for Essendon players. I wonder if AFL will give them Compo? If so, they'd get pick 19 for sure based on Goddard FA model.

[anfo27]

If AFLPA get their way with FA for Essendon players. I wonder if AFL will give them Compo? If so, they'd get pick 19 for sure based on Goddard FA model.

If that happens there will be no comp from what i understand.

[LostDoggy]

We're a conservative club. We're not going to go in six-shooters blazing. I'm hoping we don't get bent over, but they are making all the noises of “Give us a gun back” and I think we'll pick the safe option in the end.

[GVGjr]

2013:

HF: Dahl Jones Grant
F: Gia Campbell Stringer

Emerg: Higgins, Williams, Hunter, Hrovat

Who loses their spot for Crameri??

And your missing Dickson

[Reigning Maddogs]

With all the promising signs from the team in the final 8 weeks of the season there seems to be confidence we are on the right track.

In regards to our drafting we have no doubt had an excellent 2011/12 drafts. However on the other hand we have also been linked with some pretty dubious trades over these years ie Bate & Dawes.

With all the postive signs to date our trading strategy is questionable. Yes we got Koby for nothing, however Bate and or Dawes would have been a disaster.

Not convinced on Crameri, his stats aren't too impressive and very similar to Dickson. The ASADA investigation still looming with the potential for rubbing a player out for 2 years is of great concern for me.

Happy to get him in the PSD, however don't want to give anything more than 3rd rounder due to ASADA investigation - he is damaged goods in that respect.

Without the ASADA investigation would think pick 22 is about right.

[LostDoggy]

Kind of hoping our offer is our second round pick as opposed to P22. Leaves the option of trading Brisbane's pick if some sort of deal could be done for Docherty?

Thought we went early last yr with Lake maybe could have pushed harder.

Got to wonder if Jarrad Grant could be a sweetener, I'd hope not.

Seriously Bombers don't have a lot of hand:

1 - ASADA suspension hanging over Cramieri
2 - DFA being raised by AFLPA for Bombers players on safety ground (and Connors apparently willing to use it)
3 - PSD threat even if DFA doesnt' occur

I know its Essendon but surely even they would see a straight swap of Higgins and Cramieri (and a pick swap?) or P22 for Cramieri is a very good outcome for them. Just them posturing, they are swimming upstream in a river of poo with their mouth wide open.

[stefoid]

The club that offered a 2nd rounder for Scott West in his prime?

[comrade]

How's this for a deal?

Patton + the first pick in the PSD for pick 4 and 22.

Tell Stewie to walk, we get both players and Essendon gets nothing. :D

[LostDoggy]

The club that offered a 2nd rounder for Scott West in his prime?

They are absolute cocks at trade time, thought Bomber T was going to change this, but seems like he is sidelined so they revert to type.

[Doc26]

How's this for a deal?

Patton + the first pick in the PSD for pick 4 and 22.

Tell Stewie to walk, we get both players and Essendon gets nothing. :D

Like the idea but unless rules have recently changed I don't believe PSD picks can be traded

[comrade]

Like the idea but unles rules have changed I don't believe PSD picks can be traded

Yes, you're right.


Via Wiki:

Clubs receive selections in the draft based on where they finished on the AFL ladder during the year, for example, Melbourne finished last in the 2008 AFL season, therefore receiving the first pick in each of the three drafts (National, pre-season and rookie). Teams have the choice of whether to participate in the pre-season draft; many clubs fill their playing roster at the National Draft, and hence do not participate in the pre-season draft. Also, unlike the national draft, picks in the pre-season drafts cannot be traded between clubs.

We'll just need to come up with another way to screw Essendon over.

[Remi Moses]

The club that offered a 2nd rounder for Scott West in his prime?

They offered up someone named Darren Walsh ( whom they delisted. ):eek:
Essendon are pushing hard ( honestly there's more chance of Middle East Peace than Essendon being reasonable at the trade table)

[comrade]

They offered up someone named Darren Walsh ( whom they delisted. ):eek:
Essendon are pushing hard ( honestly there's more chance of Middle East Peace than Essendon being reasonable at the trade table)

They postured throughout the ASADA saga and vehemently claimed they would fight the AFL all the way to the Supreme Court to ensure no penalties were handed down.

When push came to shove, they folded like a cheap suit. I believe the same thing will happen at the trade table, especially given their lack of draft picks.

[Dry Rot]

I must admit I've never really understood the Crameri trade.

I haven't seen much of the Dons this season, but when I did he didn't impress me. But let's put that to one side....

Apparently we want him and have offered him a BIG deal.

Playing devil's advocate, he is their best almost tall forward who was also his side's highest goal scorer for two or three years. Now he allegedly wants out, so what's a reasonable trade?

Personally, I hope we screw them and get him in the PSD, or we don't get him at all. But playing devil's advocate, I can see why the Dons reckon that pick 22 is no where enough.

[Scorlibo]

To be honest the leading goalkicker accolade three years running doesn't mean as much considering he kicked under 35 goals in each of those years. You'd have to be pretty lucky to take out the goal kicking with a tally of 35 in one year, let alone 3 years straight.

[Sedat]

He's a key forward - GWS has more of those than hot breakfasts, as do Melbourne. And St Kilda has a pressing need for key defenders over key forwards (and they addressed their key forward situation last year by trading for Tom Lee in any event), and they don't have the available cap space that we do. Let Crameri go through to the PSD and we'll get him regardless.

Screw the Balco Bombers. This is the club that offered peanuts for Scott West, and repeatedly tried to flog Mark Bolton to us every trade week as a quality KPP who was worth our first round pick.

[ratsmac]

He's a key forward - GWS has more of those than hot breakfasts, as do Melbourne. And St Kilda has a pressing need for key defenders over key forwards (and they addressed their key forward situation last year by trading for Tom Lee in any event), and they don't have the available cap space that we do. Let Crameri go through to the PSD and we'll get him regardless.

Screw the Balco Bombers. This is the club that offered peanuts for Scott West, and repeatedly tried to flog Mark Bolton to us every trade week as a quality KPP who was worth our first round pick.

Totally agree Sedat. Essendon would screw us over if the shoe was on the other foot. I hope we get him for free and they get no compensation what so ever. They are a scumbag football club that has cheated more than once so I don't feel bad or sorry for them if we end up getting Crameri in the PSD

[Larunda]

To be honest the leading goalkicker accolade three years running doesn't mean as much considering he kicked under 35 goals in each of those years. You'd have to be pretty lucky to take out the goal kicking with a tally of 35 in one year, let alone 3 years straight.

Yes but he has done that with two defenders on him.

Essendon game plan, look more closely.

[Bulldog Revolution]

My view is that we do to Essendon what they have done to every other club.
- All the way through the trade period we keep making the offer of #22, they will want more.
- We promise to sweeten the offer which peaks their interest but never quite get it done.
- We leave them high and dry at the deadline. Take #22 or there is no deal

If they don't deal
- We tell Crameri to go into the PSD because they were unreasonable and are messing with his livelihood.
- We use pick 22 on a quality youngster.

If they deal then Okay they get pick #22

We shouldn't let these guys dictate more than what we should pay at the trade table.

Happy to pay market rates but lets face it, no team would pick him in the first round of the draft.

Great post GVG

And pick 22 has more value to them because they are locked out of upcoming drafts, they wont find a first rounder, so its basically as good a pick as will be out there, its an early second

I cant see GWS, Gold Coast or St Kilda selecting him in the PSD with that price on his head, so it may be the only way, particularly if Essendon are determined early in the week not to trade him

And now they are scrambling and Bomber may coach next season - to suggest they are not in disarray would be foolish

[Happy Days]

What does this mean for Patton (AKA The actually good trade that we should chase hard and not forget about unlike this one)?

[ledge]

What does this mean for Patton (AKA The actually good trade that we should chase hard and not forget about unlike this one)?

I means nothing to getting Patton, we still will chase him as well

[bulldogtragic]

What does this mean for Patton (AKA The actually good trade that we should chase hard and not forget about unlike this one)?
Good selling point, I.e. Look even the top goal kicker at a top four team has picked the dogs this year. Imagine playing in this forward line, we will beat all comers...

[azabob]

Good selling point, I.e. Look even the top goal kicker at a top four team has picked the dogs this year. Imagine playing in this forward line, we will beat all comers...

Except our delivery can be woeful.

The bigger priority for me is to continue to add to our midfiled speed and polish.

[ledge]

Except our delivery can be woeful.

The bigger priority for me is to continue to add to our midfiled speed and polish.

That has started to come with experience and I'm thinking next year will be a huge improvement on that

[bulldogtragic]

We were ranked #1 for disposal efficiency in the last 7 rounds.

There's spin, and then there's spin! We just need to spin it right! :)

[Maddog37]

I like Crameri. He is fast , strong and athletic. Macca likes him too which gives me confidence.

I will believe we are a chance for Patton when I see it happen. Seems too good to be true at present but if he is unhappy and has requested to be traded then I guess it is possible.

I would like jones to be given a run at CHB if we get them both.

[Mofra]

Yes but he has done that with two defenders on him.

Essendon game plan, look more closely.
He's also plays the high lead up role at times, which I assume will be the role we want him to play.

We had the worst forwardline in the competition last year - Crameri, or another fast leading type, would help us significantly.

[Greystache]

I'd be curious what those that think pick #22 and $1.8mil/4 years is too much for Crameri would pay if it were Michael Hurley we were chasing instead?

[always right]

I like Crameri. He is fast , strong and athletic. Macca likes him too which gives me confidence.

I will believe we are a chance for Patton when I see it happen. Seems too good to be true at present but if he is unhappy and has requested to be traded then I guess it is possible.

I would like jones to be given a run at CHB if we get them both.

First I'd like to see how Jones performs in a re-structured forwardline where he isn't the focus of opposition coaches. If he doesn't improve by all means throw him back to see how he goes. Although apart from his ability to chase I don't see a lot of defender characteristics in his play...he strikes me as a potential ball-watcher if played back.

I've said it before but imagine trying to match up on a forwardline that has Crameri, Jones, Grant and Stringer lining up. All tall(ish) and all mobile with big Tom coming out of the goalsquare. All we need is Dahl, Hunter et al getting at the feet of these guys.

[Maddog37]

Stache, I am not sold on Hurley yet. At best 22 and a player.

[Maddog37]

First I'd like to see how Jones performs in a re-structured forwardline where he isn't the focus of opposition coaches. If he doesn't improve by all means throw him back to see how he goes. Although apart from his ability to chase I don't see a lot of defender characteristics in his play...he strikes me as a potential ball-watcher if played back.

I've said it before but imagine trying to match up on a forwardline that has Crameri, Jones, Grant and Stringer lining up. All tall(ish) and all mobile with big Tom coming out of the goalsquare. All we need is Dahl, Hunter et al getting at the feet of these guys.

Jones looked ok playing back in his junior draft year if I recall.

[bulldogtragic]

I guess DFA is seriously looking for a new home then. He's not in my 10 best forwards for next year, or mids or defenders.

[always right]

I'd be curious what those that think pick #22 and $1.8mil/4 years is too much for Crameri would pay if it were Michael Hurley we were chasing instead?

For Hurley the forward I'd give up 22 plus Higgins.
For Hurley the defender I'd give up 22 and Grant.

[always right]

I guess DFA is seriously looking for a new home then. He's not in my 10 best forwards for next year, or mids or defenders.

My eldest daughter won't be happy. She has 22 on her back. The last number she had was Jordan McMahon's....whichever player she chooses in future should be concerned.

[bulldogtragic]

I'd be curious what those that think pick #22 and $1.8mil/4 years is too much for Crameri would pay if it were Michael Hurley we were chasing instead?
If we needed him to bash taxi drivers, sure.

For a player, overhyped like none else. He's talented for sure, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't seek him out trade week. Thus, I wouldn't offer anything.

[bulldogtragic]

My eldest daughter won't be happy. She has 22 on her back. The last number she had was Jordan McMahon's....whichever player she chooses in future should be concerned.
If she puts Stringer's number on, we all will find you!!! :)

[Topdog]

I'd be curious what those that think pick #22 and $1.8mil/4 years is too much for Crameri would pay if it were Michael Hurley we were chasing instead?

As a key forward, pick 40 and 1.2m over 4 years. Most over rated forward in the comp.

[Topdog]

oh and we should push for the PSD for Crameri.

[always right]

As a key forward, pick 40 and 1.2m over 4 years. Most over rated forward in the comp.

Agree...but could be the best key defender in the comp.

[1eyedog]

Except our delivery can be woeful.

The bigger priority for me is to continue to add to our midfiled speed and polish.

Do you think this will improve with a quality target? For mine, it was no coincidence that when Grant improved our score and efficiency inside F50 improved. I don't necessarily think its all our mids fault.


I'd be curious what those that think pick #22 and $1.8mil/4 years is too much for Crameri would pay if it were Michael Hurley we were chasing instead?

I would pay that for Hurley either as a forward or a back. Could be a great player and I rate him over Crameri.

[1eyedog]

First I'd like to see how Jones performs in a re-structured forwardline where he isn't the focus of opposition coaches. If he doesn't improve by all means throw him back to see how he goes. Although apart from his ability to chase I don't see a lot of defender characteristics in his play...he strikes me as a potential ball-watcher if played back.

I've said it before but imagine trying to match up on a forwardline that has Crameri, Jones, Grant and Stringer lining up. All tall(ish) and all mobile with big Tom coming out of the goalsquare. All we need is Dahl, Hunter et al getting at the feet of these guys.

:eek:

My feeling is that his major problem is an apparent lack of spatial awareness and an inability to position his body both at the drop of the ball and on the lead.

I would be super concerned having him at CHB on even a reasonable opposition forward. He would just get worked over. It's worth a try but be prepared for some pain watching him and I don't see the benefit of this with Talia, Morris, Roughead and even Austin ahead of him.

[SlimPickens]

Don't be surprised if Crameri ends up in the PSD. Don't think he left the dons on the greatest terms.

[always right]

Don't be surprised if Crameri ends up in the PSD. Don't think he left the dons on the greatest terms.

What do you base this on?

[Twodogs]

I'd be curious what those that think pick #22 and $1.8mil/4 years is too much for Crameri would pay if it were Michael Hurley we were chasing instead?


I'd prefer Crameri. He doesnt punch taxi drivers.

[LostDoggy]

The medical department would be licking their lips regarding Crameri and Hurley.

Hurley gets injured avoiding the banner.

[always right]

The medical department would be licking their lips regarding Crameri and Hurley.

Hurley gets injured avoiding the banner.

I believe we are pushing more resources into our medical department to accommodate the increased workload managing Williams, Higgins and Crameri.

[Greystache]

Just curious about Hurley. I've seen both play a lot and Crameri is the better player, I'm surprised some who are aggrieved at what we're offering Crameri would give up more to get Hurley. Perhaps Crameri just doesn't have the right publicist.

Agree with calls on Hurley as a defender BTW, has no impact at all as a forward.

[Bulldog4life]

I believe we are pushing more resources into our medical department to accommodate the increased workload managing Williams, Higgins and Crameri.

Haven't got any figures in front of me but I don't see him as an injured player all the time. Played the last half of this year with an ankle injury which he is having a minor op on soon.

[Bulldog4life]

Just curious about Hurley. I've seen both play a lot and Crameri is the better player, I'm surprised some who are aggrieved at what we're offering Crameri would give up more to get Hurley. Perhaps Crameri just doesn't have the right publicist.

Agree with calls on Hurley as a defender BTW, has no impact at all as a forward.

I am happy with Crameri. Would have him over Hurley all day long.

[always right]

My perception is that he picks up a lot of niggling injuries through the season....nothing major.

[Guido]

The flip side to draft revisionism
It's not revisionism, it's fact. I think it was quite clear that I was only including players that I think will be A-graders in the long term - IMO at least a quarter (and probably a third) of the players taken in this range in the last 5 drafts will be between excellent to elite. Quite a few others in neither your or my list will be good solid players who will be more than capable of playing in a premiership.

I'm not pretending that there's no other rubbish players taken in this range, I'm not saying there's any sort of guarantee that if we keep the pick we will walk away with a really good player, I am saying that 99.9% there will be elite long term players available at that pick, and that the opportunity cost should be factored in to these kind of judgments on trades.

Yes Crameri's a pretty good player, most certainly wouldn't be out of place in a premiership team, but my call is that in 2018 when we'll just have hit the top 4 again and be on the cusp of a few premiership tilts, Crameri will be on his last legs or have just been retired/delisted, and there will be a gun who we could've picked with this selection and we'll look back and regret the trade. It's an opinion, has every chance of being wrong, but what's the internet for if not to make stupid calls.

Of course if this happens, people will come back with "ah well, everyone's an expert in hindsight, club wasn't to know". Which is bullshit. Because there are AFL footy departments out there who would not trade pick 22 and offer $1.8 mil for Dawes or Crameri, footy departments who don't need "hindsight" to avoid trading top 25 picks for mid-aged, non-elite talent.


is who else those picks could be, +/- 3 from pick 22:
Jamie Cripps, Patrick Kernizis, Josh Bootsma, Murray Newman, Seb Ross, Garrick Weedon, Koby Stevens, James Strauss, Tom Swift, Tony Notte, Adam Maric, Tayte Pears, Clayton Hinkley, etc etc
Remember, almost all of the above are between 18-22 - in 5 years, IMO a few of them will get to at least 100 games and a couple of them might actually turn out to be very good. I'll bookmark and bump this thread when the Doggies offer $3mil/4 years for one of them when they turn 26.

[always right]

Yes Crameri's a pretty good player, most certainly wouldn't be out of place in a premiership team, but my call is that in 2018 when we'll just have hit the top 4 again and be on the cusp of a few premiership tilts, Crameri will be on his last legs or have just been retired/delisted, and there will be a gun who we could've picked with this selection and we'll look back and regret the trade. It's an opinion, has every chance of being wrong, but what's the internet for if not to make stupid calls.

Of course if this happens, people will come back with "ah well, everyone's an expert in hindsight, club wasn't to know". Which is bullshit. Because there are AFL footy departments out there who would not trade pick 22 and offer $1.8 mil for Dawes or Crameri, footy departments who don't need "hindsight" to avoid trading top 25 picks for mid-aged, non-elite talent.

Remember, almost all of the above are between 18-22 - in 5 years, IMO quite a number of them will get to at least 100 games and a couple of them will actually be very good. I'll bookmark and bump this thread when the Doggies offer $3mil/4 years for one of them when they turn 26.

So you don't believe there is any value in taking a bloke now who is in the prime of his career and will help our younger forwards (current and future) develop? I might bookmark and bump this thread in 5 years time and have great joy in talking about how critical the decision was to bring blokes like Crameri into our side and his contribution to making our team a genuine premiership contender.

[stefoid]

We have to pay a certain percentage of the cap. Crossy would have been on some coin. We will front load Crameris contract for the first two years and underpay him for his last two when our young guns are coming out of contract.

If Essendon doesnt want to trade then great. Crameri goes into the PSD with an inflated price on his head that scares off the saints.

[Guido]

How ridiculous to pick out the handful of players who have been success stories around pick 22 and conveniently ignore the other 70-ish % of players around that age who have had no impact. Draft picks outside of the top 20 are enormously overrated. See here (http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=11853).
As my post above, I don't think providing a factual list of excellent players that have been available in that range in the last 5 years is ridiculous.

By the way, I completely forgot to include Nate Fyfe, so IMO 9 of the 30 players players taken in that range are outstanding talents who most would be very disappointed to have lost access to in trades for players like Dawes or Crameri.

Odds are that 1 or 2 more players from those drafts will step up in the next year and stamp their authority on the game once they get fully developed, so pretty much a 1 in 3 chance of netting a 200 gamer.

Things sometimes change - an analysis for 2008 to 2012 rather than 2004 to 2008 might paint a slightly different picture.


What we get with Crameri is someone who is that best 22 player, who we haven't had to develop (which is probably quite important given that we already have so many kids who we have an obligation to take care of - they can't all get the right tutelage if there's that many of them),
If forced to, I'm sure the club will find a way to cope with developing 13/14 excellent kids rather than only 12. :)


still has another 5-7 years left.
In the clear, clear majority of cases, your typical, mid-range 25 year old playing today will be retired/delisted by the time he's 29/30.

Bar a few notable exceptions, only the really elite of the elite (All-Australian standard) players go on into their 30s, and it's usually nowhere near their full output.

I will be stoked if he makes it to 80 games with us. Stoked. Odds are that he won't.


as it stands we'll be left with a massive black hole in experience and leadership when Gia, Boydy, Morris and Murph are gone. I feel strongly that getting a guy like Crameri to the Dogs and KEEPING guys around the same age such as Higgins is very important.
It's all open to opinion, but my gut instinct says that by the time we're really challenging, Crameri will be 29/30, and personally I'd much prefer either: a) a 22 year old 2013 draftee ready to explode into his 5/6 peak years, b) hoard the $450k p.a. salary cap space and put it towards a big $700K/$800K p.a. offer for an A grader free-agent in the next 2/3 years. Actually, come to think of it, the two do not have to be mutually exclusive. So I'd prefer both a and b.


The money is not an issue, it has to be spent on the players and so far as I can see it's either we get Crameri or pay all of our other players over their market value.
Gee, paying our existing/loyal players 5%/6% overs would be terrible, wouldn't it? Paying outsiders/mercenaries >30% overs is fine though and a clear sign of outstanding financial and list management, of course.

It doesn't have to be spent, and if we did decide to go in paying 100% without Crameri, the spare funds can easily be put towards setting up a program of heavily frontloading (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/salary-cap-management-frontloading-contracts.883140/) contracts. Or we could otherwise go in with 92.5% of the salary cap and use the monies that had been allocated to the salary cap to pay down half a mill off the club's debt.

[1eyedog]

I should clarify my position on Hurley. Hurley has the potential to be a much better player than Crameri. Crameri is not going to get any better - he is a very good lead up forward with some additional attributes that make him hard to match up on. Hurley has a touch of class that Crameri lacks.

If Hurley had of kicked straight when the Bombers beat the Blues in the second last game of the year they would have won by 3-4 goals. Hurley kicked three goals for the match but also two points and two out on the fulls in the space of 15 minutes in the last quarter - all gettable bar perhaps one that was from 48m on the boundary. If he had of kicked 3 of those last quarter goals Essendon would have won by 4 goals rather than by one and Hurley would have 6 for the match including 10 marks. That's what he brings.

Watched him a lot and it's only a matter of time for him...that's my opinion.

[stefoid]

As my post above, I don't think providing a factual list of excellent players that have been available in that range in the last 5 years is ridiculous.

By the way, I completely forgot to include Nate Fyfe, so IMO 9 of the 30 players players taken in that range are outstanding talents who most would be very disappointed to have lost access to in trades for players like Dawes or Crameri.

Odds are that 1 or 2 more players from those drafts will step up in the next year and stamp their authority on the game once they get fully developed, so pretty much a 1 in 3 chance of netting a 200 gamer.

Things sometimes change - an analysis for 2008 to 2012 rather than 2004 to 2008 might paint a slightly different picture.

If forced to, I'm sure the club will find a way to cope with developing 13/14 excellent kids rather than only 12. :)

In the clear, clear majority of cases, your typical, mid-range 25 year old playing today will be retired/delisted by the time he's 29/30.

Bar a few notable exceptions, only the really elite of the elite (All-Australian standard) players go on into their 30s, and it's usually nowhere near their full output.

I will be stoked if he makes it to 80 games with us. Stoked. Odds are that he won't.

It's all open to opinion, but my gut instinct says that by the time we're really challenging, Crameri will be 29/30, and personally I'd much prefer either: a) a 22 year old 2013 draftee ready to explode into his 5/6 peak years, b) hoard the $450k p.a. salary cap space and put it towards a big $700K/$800K p.a. offer for an A grader free-agent in the next 2/3 years. Actually, come to think of it, the two do not have to be mutually exclusive. So I'd prefer both a and b.

Gee, paying our existing/loyal players 5%/6% overs would be terrible, wouldn't it? Paying outsiders/mercenaries >30% overs is fine though and a clear sign of outstanding financial and list management, of course.

It doesn't have to be spent, and if we did decide to go in paying 100% without Crameri, the spare funds can easily be put towards setting up a program of heavily frontloading (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/salary-cap-management-frontloading-contracts.883140/) contracts. Or we could otherwise go in with 92.5% of the salary cap and use the monies that had been allocated to the salary cap to pay down half a mill off the club's debt.

But we have to start winning some games next year. We cant continue to rot around the bottom of the ladder, relegated to late sunday arvo games on foxtel.

Winning games will do more for the bottom line than worrying about how much we are paying some guy.

You assume we are challenging for a premiership in 4 years time, but we have to get there first and that means developing a winning team and culture and that needs to happen ASAP.

[KT31]

I should clarify my position on Hurley. Hurley has the potential to be a much better player than Crameri. Crameri is not going to get any better - he is a very good lead up forward with some additional attributes that make him hard to match up on. Hurley has a touch of class that Crameri lacks.

If Hurley had of kicked straight when the Bombers beat the Blues in the second last game of the year they would have won by 3-4 goals. Hurley kicked three goals for the match but also two points and two out on the fulls in the space of 15 minutes in the last quarter - all gettable bar perhaps one that was from 48m on the boundary. If he had of kicked 3 of those last quarter goals Essendon would have won by 4 goals rather than by one and Hurley would have 6 for the match including 10 marks. That's what he brings.

Watched him a lot and it's only a matter of time for him...that's my opinion.

Would prefer Hurley over Crameri but not sure it is an option.
My Signature a couple of years back was " Get Hurley" and I haven't changed my opinion.
If the two Macs decide Crameri is the better option so be it, they know more than me.
The amount we pay is irrelevant, we have to pay the same amount whoever is on our list and if we structure the contract right it will not be an issue.
I am concerned about the four instead of three year period (I am sure we will have some insurance) but whatever gets the job done.

[always right]

But we have to start winning some games next year. We cant continue to rot around the bottom of the ladder, relegated to late sunday arvo games on foxtel.

Winning games will do more for the bottom line than worrying about how much we are paying some guy.

You assume we are challenging for a premiership in 4 years time, but we have to get there first and that means developing a winning team and culture and that needs to happen ASAP.

Bingo

[Guido]

we will never build a premiership contender if we only build via the draft
Geelong drafted, what, 13/14 of their All-Australians in their 2007-2013 tilt? How many of those picks used on those future AAs could of been easily traded away for 3/4/5 years from Dawes/Crameri level players? Heaps of them. But they stayed the course. Same with their current crop that they're rebuilding with - picks used on Menzel, Duncan, Smedts, Motlop could have been traded away on 25 year old non-elites offering 3/4 years of reasonable footy.

Between 2002 and 2011, they brought in a total of 3 recycled players? If they had have had our attitude of throwing picks and massive salaries on almost any bloody available recycled player out there and picked up over 20 recycled players (like we did in that time frame), how many of those All-Australians would they have lost?

I'm not against trading when the right opportunity presents itself at the right time - and I am also under no illusions that there are guarantees that going to the draft with any given pick will be successful - it could very well be a mistake, but the percentages say that if you have a solid recruiting department and invest in youth/keep your picks often enough, that about a third of those picks will turn out to be good/very good players. This is across the board - some outstanding recruiters have higher strike rates (40%), some lower (25%), some years will be better/worse than others, but continually invest in the draft, you should be continually be bringing in quality players.

Geelong in drafting those 13/14 All Australians across those years, and in rebuilding whilst remaining a premiership threat, made plenty of draft blunders. Dozens of them, but I think you'd agree that the overall strategy has served them reasonably well.

[whythelongface]

But we have to start winning some games next year. We cant continue to rot around the bottom of the ladder, relegated to late sunday arvo games on foxtel.

Winning games will do more for the bottom line than worrying about how much we are paying some guy.

You assume we are challenging for a premiership in 4 years time, but we have to get there first and that means developing a winning team and culture and that needs to happen ASAP.

Not only that but who's to say we won't be challenging again in 2 to 3 years time when Crameri will still be in his prime. We have seen how playing groups can develop quickly and there is no reason, based on our end of season form, that our group may reach that level quicker than we expect.

The coaching department have identified weaknesses within our structure and are trying to fast track development by bringing in an experienced player who will potentially play a critical role within our development.

[Mofra]

It's not revisionism, it's fact. I think it was quite clear that I was only including players that I think will be A-graders in the long term - IMO at least a quarter (and probably a third) of the players taken in this range in the last 5 drafts will be between excellent to elite. Quite a few others in neither your or my list will be good solid players who will be more than capable of playing in a premiership.

I'm not pretending that there's no other rubbish players taken in this range, I'm not saying there's any sort of guarantee that if we keep the pick we will walk away with a really good player, I am saying that 99.9% there will be elite long term players available at that pick, and that the opportunity cost should be factored in to these kind of judgments on trades.
No, you were presenting one side of the story and assuming that the people here/the club would just take these decisison lightly.


It's all open to opinion, but my gut instinct says that by the time we're really challenging, Crameri will be 29/30, and personally I'd much prefer either: a) a 22 year old 2013 draftee ready to explode into his 5/6 peak years, b) hoard the $450k p.a. salary cap space and put it towards a big $700K/$800K p.a. offer for an A grader free-agent in the next 2/3 years. Actually, come to think of it, the two do not have to be mutually exclusive. So I'd prefer both a and b.
You want us to factor in opportunity cost but wont factor in the fact that your scenario here only has a ~30% likelihood of success? That is selective editing.

We're hit the draft hard since B-Mac's arrival, and the most we've given up if pick 44 for a 21 year old.
This is one pick in one draft for a type we desperately need given we had the worst forwardline in the competition this year.

Geelong traded hard for Ottens and got lucky under the old F/S rules - again, if you want to compare our strategy to other sides (and I haven't even mentioned the Sydney strategy yet, nor Hawthorns) it's worth noting all of the major factors, not just cherry-picking a couple.

[Topdog]

Between 2002 and 2011, they brought in a total of 3 recycled players? If they had have had our attitude of throwing picks and massive salaries on almost any bloody available recycled player out there and picked up over 20 recycled players (like we did in that time frame), how many of those All-Australians would they have lost?.

Holy crap that is a staggering amount - thats 2 a season! Drafting well is the best way to move forward and I believe we had a good enough forward line at the end of the season. It was much more about the way that we move the ball than the players themselves.

I think Crameri will improve us and am not bothered about offering him a bigger contract that is front loaded but I believe pick 22 for an un-contracted player when you have PSD pick 4 is over paying.

[1eyedog]

Would prefer Hurley over Crameri but not sure it is an option.
My Signature a couple of years back was " Get Hurley" and I haven't changed my opinion.
If the two Macs decide Crameri is the better option so be it, they know more than me.
The amount we pay is irrelevant, we have to pay the same amount whoever is on our list and if we structure the contract right it will not be an issue.
I am concerned about the four instead of three year period (I am sure we will have some insurance) but whatever gets the job done.

Happy with Crameri - as stated we know what we are getting. Hurley has potentially more upside but we don't know what we are getting with him...if that makes sense.

[Cyberdoggie]

Jones looked ok playing back in his junior draft year if I recall.

I can't see it happening, he's a terrible body player, and his disposal is poor to average.
Makes Talia look like Sam Mitchell, i wouldn't want him with the ball across half back.

Jones is a good lead up player and has great athletic ability. He has struggled as the sole focus deep forward because he doesn't have the smarts, strength or confidence to beat the best 1 on 1 or 2 on 1.

Jones was at his best playing the lead up chf role when Barry was the main focus.

If he can get fitter he will benefit from Campbell, Crameri and Stringer being other options.

[Topdog]

Geelong traded hard for Ottens and got lucky under the old F/S rules - again, if you want to compare our strategy to other sides (and I haven't even mentioned the Sydney strategy yet, nor Hawthorns) it's worth noting all of the major factors, not just cherry-picking a couple.

Sydney were never down the bottom so its hard to compare the style with them, we also dont have extra room in the cap to take good players when we are already a good team.

The Hawks built by drafting well and then added polish (Burgoyne).

[Scraggers]

eUt4DRv2JAY

I think he is worth it !!

[always right]

TBH...I think something that is never stated in discussion around players moving clubs is the prospect of not playing in front of big crowds in big games. We really are at a disadvantage when we can't pull more than 25k to a game. This year was depressing seeing so few attend matches even in the last 6 weeks when we turned our season around. I would so love to get back to the days when we used to play in front of big(ger) crowds

Here's what I said in an earlier post. IF we manage to get Crameri across the line it will be a great achievement by the club considering we can't offer players the opportunity to play in big games in front of big crowds.

[Guido]

But we have to start winning some games next year. We cant continue to rot around the bottom of the ladder, relegated to late sunday arvo games on foxtel.

Winning games will do more for the bottom line than worrying about how much we are paying some guy.

You assume we are challenging for a premiership in 4 years time, but we have to get there first and that means developing a winning team and culture and that needs to happen ASAP.
It's almost uncanny - it's almost verbatim, the exact same argument was being put forward on Bigfooty in 2003/2004 about how necessary getting Rawlings was.

There's very real opportunity costs - you recruit for a few wins in the "now", there's likely going to be a cost in the future. And the impact of possibly costing yourself an elite long term player is going to be far greater down the track, because two/three wins in 2014/2015 will most likely count for **** all, but the two/three wins in 2018 and seasons onwards might cost the club a premiership.

IMO Crameri will improve us a fair bit, we'll be more competitive, but with the imminent retirements of Gia, Murph, Boyd and Morris, we're not near a point where we can have a realistic shot at a flag in the next few years. I genuinely think our only hope of taking on the Gold Coast and GWS superlists after that point is striking it lucky in the draft with every pick we can get on (unless quality opportunities arise) and then target two out and out superstars for our premiership run. 1 trade. 1 Free Agent. Screw Patton - frontload the hell out of the cap and build a multi-million dollar war chest for a play at Cameron in a year or two or otherwise when he becomes a free agent.

But it would take ridiculously meticulous discipline (say that 3 times fast) with the salary cap, and I don't think moves like this allow for that kind of bigger picture strategy.

[1eyedog]

eUt4DRv2JAY

I think he is worth it !!

Good highlights package isn't it - strong, courageous, a beautiful long kick, solid at ground level and fast enough. Should show Essendon supporters that and get their opinion on him again.

Two highlights I loved was the courage showed taking the first mark and the cheeky right side bounce he took running away from McPharlin. Touch of arrogance their too, will compliment Stringer beautifully.

[craigsahibee]

He certainly has ability but I'm still not sold on paying $450 - $500k a year for a guy that requires other talls in the fwd line which allows him to get the 3rd defender.

Watching those highlights he does seem to play deep fwd which would suit the likes of Grant and Jones who both like to get on their bike and push up the ground. While Grant and Jones have their issues in front of goal, their field kicking is pretty good and from what I've seen of Crameri, his set shots are good.

He would certainly be valuable but at what cost? I'll just have to defer to the club and trust that they have read the market correctly. I just hope we can also strike a deal for Patton with GWS, and as others have suggested, Crameri sneaks through to the PSD and we can snare him that way.

[Mofra]

I genuinely think our only hope of taking on the Gold Coast and GWS superlists after that point is striking it lucky in the draft with every pick we can get on (unless quality opportunities arise) and then target two out and out superstars for our premiership run. 1 trade. 1 Free Agent. Screw Patton - frontload the hell out of the cap and build a multi-million dollar war chest for a play at Cameron in a year or two or otherwise when he becomes a free agent.
So the strategy is to copy Gold Coast & GWS with lower draft picks and a smaller cap & marketing allowance?

I disagree - I think we need to take every advantage that presents itself to us, and if that means an ability to trade with a club that is desperate to rejoin one of the first two rounds of this trade period for a player who has a connection to our coach, one that will make us demonstrably better, then absolutely yes. This is not some whim - B-Mac has been saying for the better part of two years he wants to target a mid-sized forward who can do everything.

I don't think we're a realistic shot at Cameron - and why a year or two when we don't have the list space now? They've extended his contract mid-contract before, they'll aim to do that gain.
If we want to sell the farm on a forward that has no connection to us, Patton is our only realistic chance - and that's only due to their abundance of forwards.

[soupman]

IMO Crameri will improve us a fair bit, we'll be more competitive, but with the imminent retirements of Gia, Murph, Boyd and Morris, we're not near a point where we can have a realistic shot at a flag in the next few years.

Could this be another argument for getting Crameri then? To get a more experienced member of our forward half that won't retire in the next couple of years? I think Crameri coming in could help off set the loss of experience that these guys retirements will bring.



I genuinely think our only hope of taking on the Gold Coast and GWS superlists after that point is striking it lucky in the draft with every pick we can get on (unless quality opportunities arise) and then target two out and out superstars for our premiership run.


While i agree in part with the need to draft well, I think what we have to do to beat these superteams is to not try and beat them at their own game.

There is no way we are going to be able to outdraft either of them (or Melbourne for that matter). Just look at the kpps on their lists alone: Cameron, Patton, Boyd, Dixon, May, Day, Thompson, Smith, Gorringe, Nicholls. If these expansion sides weren't in the AFL at the very least one of these young players would be on our list and he would no doubt have been anointed the saviour by now. Instead they are shared between just two franchise teams.

We cannot outdraft these teams on talent alone, they will always have silkier, quicker and more complete players.

We need to focus on being entirely different to them, and I believe that is what we are doing. They are making awesome sides. We are making an awesome finals side. I think we will be the club that finishes 3rd or 4th in our prime, but with our contested and relentless gameplan we will win finals. This is where the likes of Clay Smith will really show why they were picked up by us.

Is pick 22 too high a price to pay for Crameri? That remains to be seen. But unlike the 20 odd players we have recruited in the time period you quoted, Crameri isn't a dickhead (Sherman), at the end of his career (Hall) or a prospective delistee (Djerrkurra). He is a player who fills a pressing need, has the majority of his career ahead of him, is very highly valued at his original club and most of all is already proven to be a good-very good AFL player. I'll take the guaranteed 6+ years of AFL quality that Crameri will provide over the 1/10 chance we will get someone better. Ben Hudson may be the best example of the last time we poached a required player from a club.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It's almost uncanny - it's almost verbatim, the exact same argument was being put forward on Bigfooty in 2003/2004 about how necessary getting Rawlings was.

There's very real opportunity costs - you recruit for a few wins in the "now", there's likely going to be a cost in the future. And the impact of possibly costing yourself an elite long term player is going to be far greater down the track, because two/three wins in 2014/2015 will most likely count for **** all, but the two/three wins in 2018 and seasons onwards might cost the club a premiership.

IMO Crameri will improve us a fair bit, we'll be more competitive, but with the imminent retirements of Gia, Murph, Boyd and Morris, we're not near a point where we can have a realistic shot at a flag in the next few years. I genuinely think our only hope of taking on the Gold Coast and GWS superlists after that point is striking it lucky in the draft with every pick we can get on (unless quality opportunities arise) and then target two out and out superstars for our premiership run. 1 trade. 1 Free Agent. Screw Patton - frontload the hell out of the cap and build a multi-million dollar war chest for a play at Cameron in a year or two or otherwise when he becomes a free agent.

But it would take ridiculously meticulous discipline (say that 3 times fast) with the salary cap, and I don't think moves like this allow for that kind of bigger picture strategy.

Good posts Guido, interesting read and take on the scenario. The discussion has been fantastic, kudos to you, Mofra and others who have weighed in.

From my perspective, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Geelong's method worked for them, but they weren't contending with expansion sides and an abundance of early draft picks. In any case, Hawthorn have recruited very well from opposition clubs (Gibson, Hale, Lake, Burgoyne, Gunston and in the past Dew/Croad) as have Sydney (Kennedy, McGlynn, Mattner, Shaw, Mumford, Richards and now Tippett). Basically - there's no one proven method. Both can and do work.

I think that even though you are acknowledging that drafting is no guarantee, you're placing far too much emphasis on picking up an elite talent at 22. It's possible, but it's not likely, particularly on the upcoming reports of this year's draft. There are always exceptions (Geelong's 99 class, our 99 class) but the overwhelming evidence of history suggests it's extremely difficult and unlikely.

The fact that Gia, Morris, Murph and co. will be retiring in 1-2 years is more of a reason to trade for Crameri IMO. By this stage, we'll really only have Minson, Griffen and maybe Cooney as our 28-31 year old leaders. We really lack experience in this age group, so Stew will hep out in that regard. Moreover, he provides serious value in the next 2 years when Gia is cooked/retired. Gia's booted 30+ in each of the last two seasons, it's very unlikely he'll do that in 2014 and he'll be gone in 2015. Crameri is a perfect replacement for Gia.

I would love to see us target a player like Cameron, but as Mofra said, it isn't realistic. Patton is, though, and I hope (like most) we push hard for him.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

While i agree in part with the need to draft well, I think what we have to do to beat these superteams is to not try and beat them at their own game.

There is no way we are going to be able to outdraft either of them (or Melbourne for that matter). Just look at the kpps on their lists alone: Cameron, Patton, Boyd, Dixon, May, Day, Thompson, Smith, Gorringe, Nicholls. If these expansion sides weren't in the AFL at the very least one of these young players would be on our list and he would no doubt have been anointed the saviour by now. Instead they are shared between just two franchise teams.

We cannot outdraft these teams on talent alone, they will always have silkier, quicker and more complete players.

We need to focus on being entirely different to them, and I believe that is what we are doing.

Some great points made here.

I couldn't agree more and I am very encouraged by the approach we are taking. I think we'll be a Fremantle/Sydney hybrid, and GWS/GC will be a Geelong/Hawthorn-esque.

[Mofra]

I couldn't agree more and I am very encouraged by the approach we are taking. I think we'll be a Fremantle/Sydney hybrid, and GWS/GC will be a Geelong/Hawthorn-esque.
Fremantle - drafted the core of their team, happy to trade to fill a need (ie key Defender), happy to pick up mature talent, built their gameplan around contested football and desiciplined defence.

Sounds probably the closest to the way we're developing - they have a significant home ground advantage, we've had a F/S leg up.

[always right]

They are making awesome sides. We are making an awesome finals side.

I love this statement. Great post Soupaman.

[bornadog]

If we can strike a deal, happy for Crameri to come to us. I really don't care about what salary he is on and I am sure the salary cap strategy which we know nothing about, is under control.

Really don't get the arguments from Guido, he is one player, he knows how to kick a goal and at 25 years of age, he will bring experience to the forward line. Its not as if he is a hasbeen fullforward like we have had in the past.


Crameri - Come on Down :D

PS: Scraggers, great highlights, I haven't seen much of him, but boy he can play. Reminds me a bit of our Stringer and what he can become.

[Guido]

While i agree in part with the need to draft well, I think what we have to do to beat these superteams is to not try and beat them at their own game.

There is no way we are going to be able to outdraft either of them (or Melbourne for that matter). Just look at the kpps on their lists alone: Cameron, Patton, Boyd, Dixon, May, Day, Thompson, Smith, Gorringe, Nicholls. If these expansion sides weren't in the AFL at the very least one of these young players would be on our list and he would no doubt have been anointed the saviour by now. Instead they are shared between just two franchise teams.
Well, by my reckoning, we are very close, but we're currently 2 superstars and another three/four elite players short of competing with GWS and Gold Coast in 4/5 years.

IMO trading away top 30 picks for 25 year olds is not the way to breach the gap, and significantly detracts from the bigger plan, but it's been well covered.

To get those 2 superstars and 3/4 more elites? My strategy would be:

Unless elite talent is available via trade, keep picks where most elite talent finds itself on an AFL list (first 2 rounds of the draft).

Rounds 3-6: Unless good players with excellent scope become available at a reasonable price via trade (like Stevens), have a crack at the draft with all these later round picks rather than going with delisted types (particularly targeting outstanding younger players in lower leagues).

And lastly, invest heavily in the rookie list. We've selected over half a dozen excellent players (including All Australians) from the rookie list, so continue with giving youngsters a shot instead of picking up 29 year olds or other teams discards (Barlow, Austin, Moles).

And across the next 6 years, go with maybe 4/5 targeted trades/FA pick-up that address needs, 2 of those being massive plays for superstars either via trade or free agency.

If Dalrymple continues his form, it's almost a guarantee to deliver those 6/7 additional gun players we need to get onto the club's list across the next 5 years.

But it needs discipline, not trying to offload quality draft picks and precious cap space on magic beans and consistently bringing 2/3 recycled pickups every year.



I'll take the guaranteed 6+ years of AFL quality that Crameri will provide over the 1/10 chance we will get someone better. Ben Hudson may be the best example of the last time we poached a required player from a club.
Guaranteed 6 years? 1/10?

I don't think you've read through most of the thread. It would be stretch to suggest that even 10% of current 25 year olds will still be on a list at the age of 30. And if this draft is anything like history those before it, there's a 1/3 in chance we're giving up a Fyfe, Carlisle, Zaharakis, Ward standard player, and 200 games from them rather than 100 that Crameri offers.

[Mofra]

And if this draft is anything like history those before it, there's a 1/3 in chance we're giving up a Fyfe, Carlisle, Zaharakis, Ward standard player.
This draft is regarded as a bit weaker - then of course we have to take into account that arguably the two best players are gone (2012 mini draft) and pick 22 will possibly be pick 24 come draft day if Daisy & Buddy walk.

[Guido]

I'm not going to reply to 10 posts, simply don't have the time and quite frankly can't be arsed arguing putting forward the same argument in another 100 different ways.

Opinion on record, we'll see in 5/6/7 years which way would have been the best way to go. I'm sure (and hope) this thread is bumped after every 7 goal game he has to show me the error of my ways.

[stefoid]

It's almost uncanny - it's almost verbatim, the exact same argument was being put forward on Bigfooty in 2003/2004 about how necessary getting Rawlings was.

There's very real opportunity costs - you recruit for a few wins in the "now", there's likely going to be a cost in the future. And the impact of possibly costing yourself an elite long term player is going to be far greater down the track, because two/three wins in 2014/2015 will most likely count for **** all, but the two/three wins in 2018 and seasons onwards might cost the club a premiership.

IMO Crameri will improve us a fair bit, we'll be more competitive, but with the imminent retirements of Gia, Murph, Boyd and Morris, we're not near a point where we can have a realistic shot at a flag in the next few years. I genuinely think our only hope of taking on the Gold Coast and GWS superlists after that point is striking it lucky in the draft with every pick we can get on (unless quality opportunities arise) and then target two out and out superstars for our premiership run. 1 trade. 1 Free Agent. Screw Patton - frontload the hell out of the cap and build a multi-million dollar war chest for a play at Cameron in a year or two or otherwise when he becomes a free agent.

But it would take ridiculously meticulous discipline (say that 3 times fast) with the salary cap, and I don't think moves like this allow for that kind of bigger picture strategy.

Rawlings knees were shot. He could hardly train, apparently. The fact that we picked him up despite being physically stuffed was the mistake. There was nothing wrong with concept of trading a high pick for a good player, its just that Rawlings wasnt that player.

You can point at Geelong and say 'draft, draft, draft' but you can also point at the Swans and say 'trade, trade, trade'. Neither is a convincing argument. If you get the execution right with either strategy, youre a winner and if you dont, your an idiot.

[Guido]

This draft is regarded as a bit weaker - then of course we have to take into account that arguably the two best players are gone (2012 mini draft) and pick 22 will possibly be pick 24 come draft day if Daisy & Buddy walk.
And most of the last few drafts were compromised with GC and GWS pre-selections. Not sure how many were pre-selected, but I know blokes like Jeremy Cameron never even made it to the draft - if totally uncompromised, it's conceivable that some of those players would have went mid-20s-early 30s.

[mighty_west]

PS: Scraggers, great highlights, I haven't seen much of him, but boy he can play. Reminds me a bit of our Stringer and what he can become.

In a few years time we'll be wishing we had to Stringers, one bursting packs in the midfield and one up forward, now we will...:D

[always right]

I'm not going to reply to 10 posts, simply don't have the time and quite frankly can't be arsed arguing putting forward the same argument in another 100 different ways.


Nobody was twisting your arm.

[Guido]

Rawlings knees were shot. He could hardly train, apparently. The fact that we picked him up despite being physically stuffed was the mistake. There was nothing wrong with concept of trading a high pick for a good player, its just that Rawlings wasnt that player.
Even if his knees weren't shot, he was 26 would have had 3-4 seasons in him, retiring when we entering the premiership window in 2008. The bloke wasn't even in the top 10 key forwards in the comp, and we offered him 4 years/$1.6mil only a month after telling Nathan Brown (one of the top 20 players in the comp) that 3 years/$1mil was the best we could do.

Stupid trade. Dark chapter.

[KT31]

Rawlings knees were shot. He could hardly train, apparently. The fact that we picked him up despite being physically stuffed was the mistake. There was nothing wrong with concept of trading a high pick for a good player, its just that Rawlings wasnt that player.

You can point at Geelong and say 'draft, draft, draft' but you can also point at the Swans and say 'trade, trade, trade'. Neither is a convincing argument. If you get the execution right with either strategy, youre a winner and if you dont, your an idiot.

I believe the biggest mistake we made wit Rawlings was that we forced him to play for us when he didn't want to.
At least Crameri has chosen to come to us.

[Guido]

Nobody was twisting your arm.
Well, if someone goes to the effort to put forward a detailed, well thought out reply, the least I can do is acknowledge it as a courtesy .. but with 10 of them .. I'm tired of talking about him. :)

[Guido]

Sorry, had this in another tab sitting there from like an hour ago and completely forgot about it.

Last post, I swear.


So the strategy is to copy Gold Coast & GWS with lower draft picks and a smaller cap & marketing allowance?
Yes?

I'd say it stacks up well against the club's strategy of offering millions and quality picks on the likes of Sherman, Bate, Dawes?

There are ways of getting even on the salary cap ledger, and it's not by paying overs.


I disagree - I think we need to take every advantage that presents itself to us, and if that means an ability to trade with a club that is desperate to rejoin one of the first two rounds of this trade period for a player who has a connection to our coach, one that will make us demonstrably better, then absolutely yes.

This is not some whim - B-Mac has been saying for the better part of two years he wants to target a mid-sized forward who can do everything.
We'll agree to disagree.



I don't think we're a realistic shot at Cameron -
Put an $8million offer in front of him and his manager before GWS attempts to re-sign him mid-contract, and see if we're a realistic shot in a year or two. Either get a 10 year, top 5 in the comp player, or otherwise force one of your direct competitors to come close to the offer.


and why a year or two when we don't have the list space now?
Because he's currently under contract?

The list space? Mean cap space? As I said, manage things correctly with heavy frontloading and the like, and I reckon it can be done. But it definitely won't be possible if you're continually bringing in and overpaying non-elite players.

[stefoid]

Even if his knees weren't shot, he was 26 would have had 3-4 seasons in him, retiring when we entering the premiership window in 2008. The bloke wasn't even in the top 10 key forwards in the comp, and we offered him 4 years/$1.6mil only a month after telling Nathan Brown (one of the top 20 players in the comp) that 3 years/$1mil was the best we could do.

Stupid trade. Dark chapter.

That specific trade was a loser, but you can't point at, say, Walsh or Howard and say 'poor drafting, therefore drafting is a bad strategy.'

Crameri is uncontracted and wants to come to us - we should be able to get him for unders. Time for JMac to earn his salary.

[Ozza]

In the context of Dawes getting more than half a million, Mitch Clark getting 700K+, Buddy possibly going for $2mil sort of territory all included....$450K for Crameri is ok.

You always pay more to get something you need from elsewhere. And the forward command the big(ger) bucks. We don't have any extremely highly paid players - so the money is not a big deal.

[LostDoggy]

Guido, I agree with your arguments. I prefer the national draft and the rookie list for all the reasons you mention. But I think there is a time to take a gamble on a more seasoned player. Given what Crameri brings to the table (ie strength, pace and football nous), I would contend that next year he could make the difference to us making the 8.

We have to grow the club outside as well as inside. Crowd numbers and sponsors have to be elevated. We've got to start appealing to people. Whilst it would be nice to get 4 years of no 1 picks, I'm not sure the club can survive with continued declining numbers in the mean time.

We are possibly further advanced than you think, but a couple of key injuries away from a poor year.

[Mofra]

I'd say it stacks up well against the club's strategy of offering millions and quality picks on the likes of Sherman, Bate, Dawes?
I think Crameri is a fair way ahead of those three - and cheaper than Dawes who is the only legitimate AFL footballer among the trio.


There are ways of getting even on the salary cap ledger, and it's not by paying overs.

We'll agree to disagree.
I don't think we're paying overs at all, so we can disagree there. Essendon seem to think pick 22 is unders, and we're not paying the full cap as it is.


Put an $8million offer in front of him and his manager before GWS attempts to re-sign him mid-contract, and see if we're a realistic shot in a year or two. Either get a 10 year, top 5 in the comp player, or otherwise force one of your direct competitors to come close to the offer.
$8 million over how long? We simply can't compete with GWS on $$$ terms and paying over a million a year for anyone is far closer to paying overs than paying $120k or $150k above average AFL salary for an above average AFL player.

That's before we even consider the fact we'd have to trade out significant talent just to get the picks &/or player to get GWS to deal with us.

We pick up players who are interested in coming to us, and draft the rest.

[1eyedog]

We have to pay a certain percentage of the cap. Crossy would have been on some coin. We will front load Crameris contract for the first two years and underpay him for his last two when our young guns are coming out of contract.

If Essendon doesnt want to trade then great. Crameri goes into the PSD with an inflated price on his head that scares off the saints.

Can Crameri enter the PSD and say he wants 700k per year to the Saints and then come to us at 450k a year? Seems like rotten business to me...

[Greystache]

Can Crameri enter the PSD and say he wants 700k per year to the Saints and then come to us at 450k a year? Seems like rotten business to me...

No, but he can put a heavily loaded first year price on his head. Eg of his $1.8mil over 4 years he could easily say I want $800K in 2014, we would pay it safe in the knowledge that he's signed on for the following 3 years at $333K. St Kilda etc would have to pay the $800K he's requesting but then with no guarantee he wouldn't demand the same in 2015 to stay with them.

Too big a risk for them.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

No, but he can put a heavily loaded first year price on his head. Eg of his $1.8mil over 4 years he could easily say I want $800K in 2014, we would pay it safe in the knowledge that he's signed on for the following 3 years at $333K. St Kilda etc would have to pay the $800K he's requesting but then with no guarantee he wouldn't demand the same in 2015 to stay with them.

Too big a risk for them.
There is also an element of risk for the Western Bulldogs with such a generous offer over 4 years. Brian Lake after two All Australian awards and a Bulldogs B&F, is on the same annual salary at Hawthorn as Crameri, who did have an ordinary season in 2013, will be on at the WB.
It shows how desperate we are for a big forward.

[Greystache]

There is also an element of risk for the Western Bulldogs with such a generous offer over 4 years. Brian Lake after two All Australian awards and a Bulldogs B&F, is on the same annual salary at Hawthorn as Crameri, who did have an ordinary season in 2013, will be on at the WB.
It shows how desperate we are for a big forward.

He will be, but Lake was coming off 2 pretty poor seasons himself, and at 31 had limited leverage to demand a large salary at a new club. Even in 4 years time Crameri will only be 29.

$450K per season is not that much in the scheme of things, I think people get a bit overwhelmed by seeing it written as $1.8 million.

[soupman]

Firstly thanks Guido for the long and detailed responses to a variety of posts.


Well, by my reckoning, we are very close, but we're currently 2 superstars and another three/four elite players short of competing with GWS and Gold Coast in 4/5 years.

So in other words we are stuffed if we try and play the our talent vs their talent game in 4/5 years, because that's a lot more elite players, and they'll get similar draft picks to us from here on to get more.



To get those 2 superstars and 3/4 more elites? My strategy would be:

Unless elite talent is available via trade, keep picks where most elite talent finds itself on an AFL list (first 2 rounds of the draft).

Rounds 3-6: Unless good players with excellent scope become available at a reasonable price via trade (like Stevens), have a crack at the draft with all these later round picks rather than going with delisted types (particularly targeting outstanding younger players in lower leagues).

And lastly, invest heavily in the rookie list. We've selected over half a dozen excellent players (including All Australians) from the rookie list, so continue with giving youngsters a shot instead of picking up 29 year olds or other teams discards (Barlow, Austin, Moles).


I fail to see how this differs greatly from what the demonstrated club plan is, especially the bolded bit, which surely goes without saying. The only difference seems to be that the club is open to trading early picks if a deal that the club sees as being massive value comes along, and the club sees value in using a rookie spot on a player like Austin who can provide depth to a developing side.

TBH we aren't going to get the 5 or so elite players through this drafting strategy, and even if we do get all five GC and GWS will also have added at least half as many as us again.



And across the next 6 years, go with maybe 4/5 targeted trades/FA pick-up that address needs, 2 of those being massive plays for superstars either via trade or free agency.


This is what we are doing isn't it? It's just Crameri doesn't meet your idea of what our targeted player should be.


Guaranteed 6 years? 1/10?

I don't think you've read through most of the thread. It would be stretch to suggest that even 10% of current 25 year olds will still be on a list at the age of 30. And if this draft is anything like history those before it, there's a 1/3 in chance we're giving up a Fyfe, Carlisle, Zaharakis, Ward standard player, and 200 games from them rather than 100 that Crameri offers.

Yep, but if you rate Crameri then it's really more like 1/3 chance of getting a player as good or better than Crameri, therefore;
Ignore Crameri, use pick 22, upside:
1/3 chance of getting a player as good as Crameri or better
1/3 chance of 100+ more games from a player as good as Crameri
Don't pay Crameri
Potentially a worse side, therefore better draft picks next year

Get Crameri for pick 22, upside:
2/3 chance he's going to be better than the bloke we would have picked
Instant impact, helping the side and the other forwards improve
Don't have to wait 50 games for him to be good

Don't forget that whoever we draft won't have Crameri's output for at least his first 50 games, which means that even if he plays 200 to Crameri's 100 its 50 games more we get out of him, not the 100.



Guaranteed 6 years? 1/10?

I don't think you've read through most of the thread. It would be stretch to suggest that even 10% of current 25 year olds will still be on a list at the age of 30. And if this draft is anything like history those before it, there's a 1/3 in chance we're giving up a Fyfe, Carlisle, Zaharakis, Ward standard player, and 200 games from them rather than 100 that Crameri offers.

Disagree with the bolded. Just went through half of the 2008 lists and of the 25 year olds (there are surprisingly few, about 25 from my sample) over half (thirteen) were on an AFL list this year. And then, assuming we can count Crameri as being in the top 50% of 25 year olds in the competition, based on my stats he has a 13/15 chance of still playing when he is 30, assuming that atm he is not rated in the same group as Henry Playfair, Edward Sainsbury, Ryan Lonie or Wayde Skipper was in.

I appreciate where you are coming from, and I too do not enjoy seeing picks thrown away at other clubs unwanted players. But I think in this scenario you are applying a best case scenario to the draft option, and a worst case scenario to Crameri, and Crameri is not the damaged goods that we have traded decent picks for in the past.

[always right]

Firstly thanks Guido for the long and detailed responses to a variety of posts.



So in other words we are stuffed if we try and play the our talent vs their talent game in 4/5 years, because that's a lot more elite players, and they'll get similar draft picks to us from here on to get more.



I fail to see how this differs greatly from what the demonstrated club plan is, especially the bolded bit, which surely goes without saying. The only difference seems to be that the club is open to trading early picks if a deal that the club sees as being massive value comes along, and the club sees value in using a rookie spot on a player like Austin who can provide depth to a developing side.

TBH we aren't going to get the 5 or so elite players through this drafting strategy, and even if we do get all five GC and GWS will also have added at least half as many as us again.



This is what we are doing isn't it? It's just Crameri doesn't meet your idea of what our targeted player should be.


Yep, but if you rate Crameri then it's really more like 1/3 chance of getting a player as good or better than Crameri, therefore;
Ignore Crameri, use pick 22, upside:
1/3 chance of getting a player as good as Crameri or better
1/3 chance of 100+ more games from a player as good as Crameri
Don't pay Crameri
Potentially a worse side, therefore better draft picks next year

Get Crameri for pick 22, upside:
2/3 chance he's going to be better than the bloke we would have picked
Instant impact, helping the side and the other forwards improve
Don't have to wait 50 games for him to be good

Don't forget that whoever we draft won't have Crameri's output for at least his first 50 games, which means that even if he plays 200 to Crameri's 100 its 50 games more we get out of him, not the 100.



Disagree with the bolded. Just went through half of the 2008 lists and of the 25 year olds (there are surprisingly few, about 25 from my sample) over half (thirteen) were on an AFL list this year. And then, assuming we can count Crameri as being in the top 50% of 25 year olds in the competition, based on my stats he has a 13/15 chance of still playing when he is 30, assuming that atm he is not rated in the same group as Henry Playfair, Edward Sainsbury, Ryan Lonie or Wayde Skipper was in.

I appreciate where you are coming from, and I too do not enjoy seeing picks thrown away at other clubs unwanted players. But I think in this scenario you are applying a best case scenario to the draft option, and a worst case scenario to Crameri, and Crameri is not the damaged goods that we have traded decent picks for in the past.

Impressive. Where do you find the time?:confused:

[LostDoggy]

Agree with Mofra - worst fwd line in league and he makes us instantly better. Getting this right helps all of our team and players improve

Don't forget age profile of list - gives us someone on the park in 25-26 yr old black hole.

Frankly open to trading all of picks this year if we get strong players in return.

And Crameri is no Rawlins:

A - and above all else he wants to play with us
B - He isn't physically shot
C - We aren't paying Pick 6

[mighty_west]

Agree with Mofra - worst fwd line in league and he makes us instantly better. Getting this right helps all of our team and players improve

Don't forget age profile of list - gives us someone on the park in 25-26 yr old black hole.

Frankly open to trading all of picks this year if we get strong players in return.

And Crameri is no Rawlins:

A - and above all else he wants to play with us
B - He isn't physically shot
C - We aren't paying Pick 6

Crameri is also a very good kick for goal where's Rawlings, well...shocker! Half the time you could literally see Jade wanting to dish it off and not take the responsibility.

[Topdog]

Surely Melbourne, St Kilda and GWS have a worse forward line than us. Just dreadful.

Anyway I've spoken with Guido about this in person and it is something that he is passionate about and historically he is very much spot on with it.

[always right]

Crameri is also a very good kick for goal where's Rawlings, well...shocker! Half the time you could literally see Jade wanting to dish it off and not take the responsibility.

Funny....on the Essendon board they reckon his set goal kicking is very ordinary. Has a decent leg on him though.

[Topdog]

In any case, Hawthorn have recruited very well from opposition clubs (Gibson, Hale, Lake, Burgoyne, Gunston and in the past Dew/Croad) as have Sydney (Kennedy, McGlynn, Mattner, Shaw, Mumford, Richards and now Tippett). Basically - there's no one proven method. Both can and do work.

The key to anything is doing it the right way. If you look at the Hawks they only paid overs really for Gibson but they were in the middle of their premiership window.

Sydney again overpaid for Mumford and Tippett but they have an extra $1m in the cap and are in a premiership window. The other good thing about what these teams do is mainly get young guys when they overpay. Crameri fits into that aspect but I'd hate for us to give pick 22 away when we ave PSD pick 4.

The Saints are 2 years behind us in their rebuild and if they want to get Crameri for a shedload of money and still be crap then that is their prerogative. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be scared of missing out on this guy.

[Topdog]

Funny....on the Essendon board they reckon his set goal kicking is very ordinary. Has a decent leg on him though.

30 goals 13 would suggest otherwise. He improved dramatically this season.

[Rocco Jones]

Anyway I've spoken with Guido about this in person and it is something that he is passionate about and historically he is very much spot on with it.

Me too (weekly!).

Great to have Guido posting. I think I sit somewhere between most here and his views however it is great to see some robust discussion with posters making strong efforts to back up their opinions.

[Rocco Jones]

Funny....on the Essendon board they reckon his set goal kicking is very ordinary. Has a decent leg on him though.


30 goals 13 would suggest otherwise. He improved dramatically this season.

Funny how fans of teams suddenly rate a player less when he decides he is leaving them.

[1eyedog]

Agree with Mofra - worst fwd line in league and he makes us instantly better. Getting this right helps all of our team and players improve

Don't forget age profile of list - gives us someone on the park in 25-26 yr old black hole.

Frankly open to trading all of picks this year if we get strong players in return.

And Crameri is no Rawlins:

A - and above all else he wants to play with us
B - He isn't physically shot
C - We aren't paying Pick 6

Was our forward line the worse in the league across the last 8 games?

[LostDoggy]

Was our forward line the worse in the league across the last 8 games?

Did Jones play much in the last eight weeks? Is Campbell really an AFL standard player yet? Should Gia have retired, can he get any slower? Has Dickson proven himself to be more than a bit player? Can Grant carry a few games form into a career? Will Dahlhaus play in the midfield more? Will Stringer be fit....Honestly our fwd line would benefit massively from Crameri, I don't see how you could argue otherwise.

And while Guido is passionate about building from the draft, it is not the only way to build as others have pointed out, and I would be inclined to be more supportive of closer to full on drafting if we have Geelong or even Collingwood's recruitment and development team but we don't. And even Geelong have picked up players to address gaps from other clubs (with mixed results - Hamish McIntosh, Brad Ottens, Rivers, Harley, Mooney to name a few)

If you can nail a draft its wonderful but in reality its a game of probabilities and a bit of a crap shoot really.

At a loose end once and looked at Geelong's recruiting record (excluding father sons) to ours in the last 10 or so years and Geelong had nearly double the strike rate of good to great players compared to us. Some of our recruiting over the years has been unlucky, some just plain dumb.

Yes it looks like Dalrymple nailed last year, but remember this is the guy who went against most experts' view and blew our first two picks on Howard and Tutt. And sorry odds are, even if you are just a good recruiter, most Pick 22's will bust rather than boom.

Do the Crameri deal. Pay the price. Yeah PSD might be okay, but I don't like doing it as what comes around goes around.

[SonofScray]

Enjoyed reading Guido's contributions to this thread! Presented a strong argument, and long term strategy which I tend to agree with. I'd probably make the exception with a guy like Crameri though on the grounds he is a goal kicker and we just don't have a heap of guys who can hit the scoreboard as easily and often as we'd like. Grant / D'haus might be the only young blokes who have it in them on form this year.

Would be ideal to get him in the PSD. But if we had to cough up #22, I'd not be too fussed as I feel we've drafted and traded exceptionally well under Mac and might have space to take this risk. Its not Aaron James, Saunders, MacDougall, Basset, Morgan etc, or doesn't feel like that sort of debacle anyway.

Generally though, I'd be more comfortable with Guido's strategy.

[ledge]

Macca knows this guy from his season at Essendon, I would back he has great work ethic and hates losing, is constantly looking to improve and will stop at nothing to be successful, take him for 22 I say

[1eyedog]

Did Jones play much in the last eight weeks? Is Campbell really an AFL standard player yet? Should Gia have retired, can he get any slower? Has Dickson proven himself to be more than a bit player? Can Grant carry a few games form into a career? Will Dahlhaus play in the midfield more? Will Stringer be fit....Honestly our fwd line would benefit massively from Crameri, I don't see how you could argue otherwise.

And while Guido is passionate about building from the draft, it is not the only way to build as others have pointed out, and I would be inclined to be more supportive of closer to full on drafting if we have Geelong or even Collingwood's recruitment and development team but we don't. And even Geelong have picked up players to address gaps from other clubs (with mixed results - Hamish McIntosh, Brad Ottens, Rivers, Harley, Mooney to name a few)

If you can nail a draft its wonderful but in reality its a game of probabilities and a bit of a crap shoot really.

At a loose end once and looked at Geelong's recruiting record (excluding father sons) to ours in the last 10 or so years and Geelong had nearly double the strike rate of good to great players compared to us. Some of our recruiting over the years has been unlucky, some just plain dumb.

Yes it looks like Dalrymple nailed last year, but remember this is the guy who went against most experts' view and blew our first two picks on Howard and Tutt. And sorry odds are, even if you are just a good recruiter, most Pick 22's will bust rather than boom.

Do the Crameri deal. Pay the price. Yeah PSD might be okay, but I don't like doing it as what comes around goes around.

Agree with the above. I like the idea of having Crameri on board for what he offers and I have never been adverse to trading in an established player if he fills a need or is simply a good player. I in no way believe he will be overpaid for what you get and I think we have drafted well and had some luck with Father Sons to now look at 24-25 year olds who will be very experienced footballers when our young guns are 24-25 and we are in our Premiership window.

Given the mass exodus of our stars over the next two years the Crameri's, Higgins', Williams' (who many on this forum have put up for trade) will be our next batch of experienced 29-30 year olds who are critical to have on board as part of any Premiership tilt. I expect we'd trade in plus 28 years olds as well as most teams do in a Premiership window.

The big issues of going with the draft and rookie lists is the wait. Fans are impatient and need some level of success, membership numbers need to be sustainable and the football club needs to be operating as a sustainable business. If we draft and wait and do not perform we lose members and potential sponsors. We are not in a GCS / GWS position and we cannot afford to wait and see whether our drafting has been successful or not. If we solely take the draft road and it doesn't work we're screwed. It's fine to throw kitchen sinks at elite young talent but there needs to be scope to develop a team around them and have enough experienced heads on board to support them.

[bulldogtragic]

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PERTH, AUSTRALIA - JUNE 27: Stewart Crameri of the Bombers runs down the wing during the round 14 AFL match between the West Coast Eagles and the Essendon Bombers at Patersons Stadium on June 27, 2013 in Perth, Australia.

ESSENDON forward Stewart Crameri has told the Bombers he wants to be traded to the Western Bulldogs on a four-year deal.

But the Dons are determined to hang onto Crameri and have told him they are not prepared to trade him under any circumstances.

It will set up weeks of intense haggling between the clubs, which could see Crameri forced into the pre-season draft to get to the Dogs.

The Dogs have an early pick and ample salary cap room, but might have to give up a late first-round or early second-round pick to get their man.

Crameri had met with Essendon on Monday to discuss his prospects, but told the Dons he would accept a Dogs offer believed to be $1,8 million over four seasons tonight.

He is in hospital after having ankle surgery, but is determined to move to a new club.

The 25-year-old is Essendon’s leading forward when injury-free despite the inclusion of Joe Daniher this year and the lofty reputation of Michael Hurley.

[westdog54]

Petulance of the highest order from Essendon.

Rather than try and extract some sort of value for his departure, they would rather force him into the PSD, where he risks ending up where he doesn't want to be.

[1eyedog]

Petulance of the highest order from Essendon.

Rather than try and extract some sort of value for his departure, they would rather force him into the PSD, where he risks ending up where he doesn't want to be.

They've always hated us and the feeling has been reciprocated.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Interesting that Monday reports were crameri meet with bombers and all went well then Tuesday he tells them he is leaving and they wont trade him at all. Something doesn't add up

[LostDoggy]

Petulance of the highest order from Essendon.

Rather than try and extract some sort of value for his departure, they would rather force him into the PSD, where he risks ending up where he doesn't want to be.

Wouldn't get to hung up on it, it reinforces to Crameri that he has done the right thing should solidify his determination to get to us.

And really Ess are over a barrel, infractions hanging over them they'll deal, they don't have much of a choice. But if they lose a few players to suspension well they just might prefer some players, going to be an interesting trade period!

[bulldogtragic]

Maybe it's a value judgement on Crameri. Maybe they think he was so close to shining he still loves the club and won't let them get nothing for him.

Or they're dicks of the highest order!

[jeemak]

Treat this with a grain of salt (due to the ketchup), I have been told the news of Crameri's potential departure hadn't gone down well with a few of his teammates to the point where things became physical. Though, this was told to me as being an issue that flared up a week or two ago.

Footy clubs are strange places, full of strange people. I don't completely discount the above nor do I actually believe it. The inference was however, that this has been closer to a done deal for a bit longer than the media has reported.

As I said, treat this with a grain of salt.

[stefoid]

There is also an element of risk for the Western Bulldogs with such a generous offer over 4 years. Brian Lake after two All Australian awards and a Bulldogs B&F, is on the same annual salary at Hawthorn as Crameri, who did have an ordinary season in 2013, will be on at the WB.
It shows how desperate we are for a big forward.

Actually hes only 186cm, so hardly big. I havent seen him play, but the idea he is more like a RoK type from Sydney who covers a lot of ground at high speed?

(actually another site has him at 190cm, so I dont know which is right...)

But I think thats the way the PSD scam works - Crameri puts a big price on his head and we pay it: for the first 2 years. Next two years he is on 250K.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Actually hes only 186cm, so hardly big. I havent seen him play, but the idea he is more like a RoK type from Sydney who covers a lot of ground at high speed?

(actually another site has him at 190cm, so I dont know which is right...)

But I think thats the way the PSD scam works - Crameri puts a big price on his head and we pay it: for the first 2 years. Next two years he is on 250K.

Its interesting they have his size wrong

My view is hes 190 and certainly not 186

[SonofScray]

They've always hated us and the feeling has been reciprocated.

We wouldn't have a very long list of players leaving Essendon for Footscray would we? They'd be filthy I think. Come to think of it, maybe even going the other way there wouldn't be too many on the list.

Mark Alvey.

[Remi Moses]

It's incredible to think that in the amount of time we've had the Trade period the Bombers still don't get it!
The more they dig their heels in, the more the PSD is a viable option .
Ever since they bent Freo over in 94 for the number one pickThey've had an attitude that they can screw over every club.

[1eyedog]

We wouldn't have a very long list of players leaving Essendon for Footscray would we? They'd be filthy I think. Come to think of it, maybe even going the other way there wouldn't be too many on the list.

Mark Alvey.

Buhagier(sp?)

That's about it.

[1eyedog]

No, but he can put a heavily loaded first year price on his head. Eg of his $1.8mil over 4 years he could easily say I want $800K in 2014, we would pay it safe in the knowledge that he's signed on for the following 3 years at $333K. St Kilda etc would have to pay the $800K he's requesting but then with no guarantee he wouldn't demand the same in 2015 to stay with them.

Too big a risk for them.


It's incredible to think that in the amount of time we've had the Trade period the Bombers still don't get it!
The more they dig their heels in, the more the PSD is a viable option .
Ever since they bent Freo over in 94 for the number one pickThey've had an attitude that they can screw over every club.

Could / would the Saints agree to this and feel that they are in a position to renegotiate his salary for the remainder of a new contract? Being embedded in a club for a year you'd think that he wouldn't screw them over and may well accept that if he was front loaded with the 800k it would now be reasonable to be paid 300k for an additional 3 years.

How much does he want to come to us? At St. Kilda he would be up to his eyeballs in a crap culture but he would be getting the coin he was after, be in Victoria at a Victorian club and, most importantly it seems, away from Essendon.

If he goes to the PSD I reckon he will need to be prepared to go to St. Kilda and I think Essendon will leverage that and push us.

He's too big a fish for the PSD and I'm a bit nervous about it so I'd like to see 22 get the job done and move on.

[Mofra]

Surely Melbourne, St Kilda and GWS have a worse forward line than us. Just dreadful.
GWS & Melbourne are definately better than ours - with the decline of Milne and their other three amigos having fair to poor seasons, alot rests on Tom Lee so you can mount a solid argument for St Kilda being below us.

[Mofra]

Actually hes only 186cm, so hardly big. I havent seen him play, but the idea he is more like a RoK type from Sydney who covers a lot of ground at high speed?

(actually another site has him at 190cm, so I dont know which is right...)

But I think thats the way the PSD scam works - Crameri puts a big price on his head and we pay it: for the first 2 years. Next two years he is on 250K.
MOst sites have him at 190cm - he can certainly play tall at times, quite good at ground level (strong frame).

From memory in the ND Luke Ball had a $500k price on his head to slip through to Collingwood at around pick 30 - the next year he was on AFL base salary.

[ledge]

Bombers have the shits with us due to Macca pinching Dickson Campbell and Stringer from them in the draft.

[bulldogtragic]

ESSENDON will refuse to accept pick 22 from the Bulldogs for Stewart Crameri, setting the scene for a month of acrimonious negotiations.

Crameri has told Essendon officials and teammates he will accept a four-year $1.8 million deal, confirming the Herald Sun’s report yesterday.

But while the Dogs pitch to Crameri was that they did not expect him to kick 60 goals a year as the club’s saviour, he is not at Whitten Oval yet.

The Bombers are point blank refusing to trade Crameri, despite offered him only a two-year deal until finally relenting recently for a third season.

The clubs have until the trade deadline on October 25 to thrash out a deal, with the preseason draft a potential solution should the Dons play hard ball.

Essendon will almost certainly lose Scott Gumbleton as a forward line target, meaning Michael Hurley, Paddy Ryder and Joe Daniher are the club’s key forwards alongside ruckman Tom Bellchambers.

The Western Bulldogs are prepared to trade for 25-year-old Crameri despite the potential for future ASADA infraction notices.

But they are unprepared to give up anything bigger than pick 22 given there is still uncertainty about the future of Essendon players.

Crameri will not go to any other club or stay at the Dons and will use any trade manoeuvre possible to get there.

AFL boss Andrew Demetriou had said the AFL Commission would on Monday rule on the prospect of players leaving Essendon as unrestricted free agents but it was not discussed.

It will be a shattering blow for Essendon’s suspended coach James Hird, who was a huge admirer of Crameri but cannot take part in any coaching or list management duties until August 25 next year.

The 25-year-old is Essendon’s leading forward when injury-free despite the inclusion of Joe Daniher this year and the lofty reputation of Michael Hurley.

The Dogs’ second round pick could eventually drop several spots with compensation picks are allocated but will still be an early second-round selection.

Essendon could eventually need a pick to lure St Kilda onballer Nick Dal Santo if the Bombers continue their interest in him.

But with a tight cap they will not be able to satisfy his hefty wage unless players like Crameri leave.

The Bombers are unhappy that Western Bulldogs coach Brendan McCartney continues to target their players, with Gumbleton also linked to the Dogs.

The former Essendon forward line coach worked closely with Crameri in 2011, with the Dogs also luring Essendon VFL players Tom Campbell and Tory Dickson in recent years.

But the Bulldogs are unapologetic, determined to improve their forward line and not yet finished with their potential acquisitions.

-with Grant Baker (from link from twitter, @essendonfcnews )

[bulldogtragic]

From above article, pick 22 gets you Del Santo, nothing gets you nothing. Your call cheats!

[Topdog]

GWS & Melbourne are definately better than ours - with the decline of Milne and their other three amigos having fair to poor seasons, alot rests on Tom Lee so you can mount a solid argument for St Kilda being below us.

Not talking about the future talking about now.

GWS have Cameron and thats it. Melbourne have no one worthwhile. Dawes is rubbish and Clarke has been injured since forever.

[Scorlibo]

It's not revisionism, it's fact. I think it was quite clear that I was only including players that I think will be A-graders in the long term - IMO at least a quarter (and probably a third) of the players taken in this range in the last 5 drafts will be between excellent to elite. Quite a few others in neither your or my list will be good solid players who will be more than capable of playing in a premiership.

I'm not pretending that there's no other rubbish players taken in this range, I'm not saying there's any sort of guarantee that if we keep the pick we will walk away with a really good player, I am saying that 99.9% there will be elite long term players available at that pick, and that the opportunity cost should be factored in to these kind of judgments on trades.

Of course, there's always opportunities to snare a great player. That's true even in the rookie draft. What is shown by my analysis of the draft in the thread I linked to you is that after the first round there is an extremely pronounced drop off in quality and that picks 21-50 are near indistinguishable from each other for average games played and number of A-graders.



Remember, almost all of the above are between 18-22 - in 5 years, IMO a few of them will get to at least 100 games and a couple of them might actually turn out to be very good. I'll bookmark and bump this thread when the Doggies offer $3mil/4 years for one of them when they turn 26.

Sure, but the majority will be delisted.


As my post above, I don't think providing a factual list of excellent players that have been available in that range in the last 5 years is ridiculous.

By the way, I completely forgot to include Nate Fyfe, so IMO 9 of the 30 players players taken in that range are outstanding talents who most would be very disappointed to have lost access to in trades for players like Dawes or Crameri.

Odds are that 1 or 2 more players from those drafts will step up in the next year and stamp their authority on the game once they get fully developed, so pretty much a 1 in 3 chance of netting a 200 gamer.

Things sometimes change - an analysis for 2008 to 2012 rather than 2004 to 2008 might paint a slightly different picture.


Perhaps, but it's very difficult to assess the 2007 draft now let alone the 2012 draft. If you're reviewing recent drafts then the star/superstar count is always going to be higher. Plenty of players will drop off or be delisted who are at the moment being hailed as the next big thing or 200 gamers. I'll keep adding to the data each year but at this stage your argument is not supported by any 'factual' measure.

The numbers suggest that pick 22 isn't worth as much as you're intimating, especially given it's more like pick 24 with Jack Martin and Jesse Hogan taken away from the crop.


If forced to, I'm sure the club will find a way to cope with developing 13/14 excellent kids rather than only 12. :)

But will the 'excellent kids' cope with having their slice of the coaches' time reduced? Not suggesting that one player will make a big difference, just that when there is so much youth at a club obviously there is a tendency for some talented players to do worse than they would at a club which could afford them due resources. Case in point is the Gold Coast or GWS where there will be quite a few talented kids who wither because they don't have sufficient guidance from experienced players or coaches. Jack Trengove at Melbourne should be one of the best mids going around right now but instead is really struggling because he was forced to take on the captaincy of an absurdly young side instead of continuing to work on his own game with the appropriate support mechanisms around him.


In the clear, clear majority of cases, your typical, mid-range 25 year old playing today will be retired/delisted by the time he's 29/30.

That's clearly incorrect. Again, why would you go making these outlandish claims? Do the research, find the truth. As soupaman highlighted, it's more like a 50-50 split on those that play on until 30 and for players of Crameri's quality it's more than likely that they will make it that far.



It's all open to opinion, but my gut instinct says that by the time we're really challenging, Crameri will be 29/30, and personally I'd much prefer either: a) a 22 year old 2013 draftee ready to explode into his 5/6 peak years, b) hoard the $450k p.a. salary cap space and put it towards a big $700K/$800K p.a. offer for an A grader free-agent in the next 2/3 years. Actually, come to think of it, the two do not have to be mutually exclusive. So I'd prefer both a and b.

Under free agency don't players have to have played 8 or so years at their club to be eligible?

I suppose it's probably about more than just who's going to be peaking in our premiership window. You need the experience also, you need to make sure that in our rise that not too much pressure is placed on the youth to perform.


Gee, paying our existing/loyal players 5%/6% overs would be terrible, wouldn't it? Paying outsiders/mercenaries >30% overs is fine though and a clear sign of outstanding financial and list management, of course.

You're looking at this the wrong way. You're saying that you'd rather pay all of our current players more than they're worth so that we can no longer afford an outsider who would improve our side. There's no logic in that.


It doesn't have to be spent, and if we did decide to go in paying 100% without Crameri, the spare funds can easily be put towards setting up a program of heavily frontloading (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/salary-cap-management-frontloading-contracts.883140/) contracts. Or we could otherwise go in with 92.5% of the salary cap and use the monies that had been allocated to the salary cap to pay down half a mill off the club's debt.

Why do you presume that by getting Crameri we're spending beyond the 92.5% of the salary cap? We have a lot of kids (a lot) and a further bunch of players who wouldn't demand hefty contracts. The way I see it, it's likely that by getting Crameri we're sticking our heads just above the minimum salary cap spend and that's not part of a 'Crameri over the debt' kind of mantra but a 'give more resources to the football department' kind of one, whereby we'd be spending that money on football anyway.

[Go_Dogs]

The Bombers are unhappy that Western Bulldogs coach Brendan McCartney continues to target their players, with Gumbleton also linked to the Dogs.

The former Essendon forward line coach worked closely with Crameri in 2011, with the Dogs also luring Essendon VFL players Tom Campbell and Tory Dickson in recent years.

This is great. We're being ruthless off field and Essendon, one of the biggest and proudest clubs is being done over by us and are upset about it.

At the end of the day, if Essendon want to make a play for Dal Santo, they are going to need our second round pick to get that deal done. They're going to potentially do themselves out of that opportunity if they hold up the trade for too long.

I'm not sure if it's just more bluster from Essendon who continue to fight the good fight in the media for their supporters sake or if they're genuinely going to be difficult in getting the deal done.

It's a fair trade and it should be done promptly. If it can't be I think we should just walk away from the table and tell them we're confident we'll get our man in the PSD and they can walk away with nothing. St Kilda are a potential risk and will have cap space but I think it's unlikely they'd go for him considering his clear wish to end up a Dog. We also don't know who else may be available in the PSD market at this point in time who they may prefer.

Potentially I could see the rationale in swapping our 4th round pick for theirs to get the deal done but anything more than that is unnecessary on our behalf.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

This is great. We're being ruthless off field and Essendon, one of the biggest and proudest clubs is being done over by us and are upset about it.

At the end of the day, if Essendon want to make a play for Dal Santo, they are going to need our second round pick to get that deal done. They're going to potentially do themselves out of that opportunity if they hold up the trade for too long.

I'm not sure if it's just more bluster from Essendon who continue to fight the good fight in the media for their supporters sake or if they're genuinely going to be difficult in getting the deal done.

It's a fair trade and it should be done promptly. If it can't be I think we should just walk away from the table and tell them we're confident we'll get our man in the PSD and they can walk away with nothing. St Kilda are a potential risk and will have cap space but I think it's unlikely they'd go for him considering his clear wish to end up a Dog. We also don't know who else may be available in the PSD market at this point in time who they may prefer.

Potentially I could see the rationale in swapping our 4th round pick for theirs to get the deal done but anything more than that is unnecessary on our behalf.

I seriously hope the AFL allows essendon players to walk for nothing and that scum club folds and is relocated. They are so arrogant and delusional that they live in their own world. The drug saga is proof of that. Banish the club for good!

[1eyedog]

This is great. We're being ruthless off field and Essendon, one of the biggest and proudest clubs is being done over by us and are upset about it.

At the end of the day, if Essendon want to make a play for Dal Santo, they are going to need our second round pick to get that deal done. They're going to potentially do themselves out of that opportunity if they hold up the trade for too long.

I'm not sure if it's just more bluster from Essendon who continue to fight the good fight in the media for their supporters sake or if they're genuinely going to be difficult in getting the deal done.

It's a fair trade and it should be done promptly. If it can't be I think we should just walk away from the table and tell them we're confident we'll get our man in the PSD and they can walk away with nothing. St Kilda are a potential risk and will have cap space but I think it's unlikely they'd go for him considering his clear wish to end up a Dog. We also don't know who else may be available in the PSD market at this point in time who they may prefer.

Potentially I could see the rationale in swapping our 4th round pick for theirs to get the deal done but anything more than that is unnecessary on our behalf.

Yep and they know it. They desperately need an experienced polished midfielder and I believe they will take pick 22 before too long. We are very well positioned on this one.

[bulldogtragic]

I seriously hope the AFL allows essendon players to walk for nothing and that scum club folds and is relocated. They are so arrogant and delusional that they live in their own world. The drug saga is proof of that. Banish the club for good!
It's just the club doing what their supporters expect.

In my past life I regularly worked the MCG among the other grounds, maybe 30 or more games. So I got exposed to a lot of different supporters. By far the worst, and I mean by FAR... The worst supporters were Essendon. In one words:

Arrogant,
aggressive,
(more propensity for) violence (never had a scuffle not involving Essendon supporters),
disrespectful (to everyone else at the ground),
rude, abusive,
disingenuous,

That's not all of them, sure, but that's my experience fwiw.

[Scorlibo]

It's just the club doing what their supporters expect.

In my past life I regularly worked the MCG among the other grounds, maybe 30 or more games. So I got exposed to a lot of different supporters. By far the worst, and I mean by FAR... The worst supporters were Essendon. In one words:

Arrogant,
aggressive,
(more propensity for) violence (never had a scuffle not involving Essendon supporters),
disrespectful (to everyone else at the ground),
rude, abusive,
disingenuous,

That's not all of them, sure, but that's my experience fwiw.

Interesting. I always thought their booing/bronx-cheering of Brent Stanton was awful and recently watched the Paul Salmon 'Open Mike' interview where it's shown that they did the same to him. Awful.

[Remi Moses]

Interesting. I always thought their booing/bronx-cheering of Brent Stanton was awful and recently watched the Paul Salmon 'Open Mike' interview where it's shown that they did the same to him. Awful.

They hounded Salmon out of the joint.
Let's be brutally honest they'd boo Santa Claus

[bulldogsthru&thru]

They hounded Salmon out of the joint.
Let's be brutally honest they'd boo Santa Claus

as bad as fans for the Philadelphia Eagles (who actually booed santa)?

[SlimPickens]

It's just the club doing what their supporters expect.

In my past life I regularly worked the MCG among the other grounds, maybe 30 or more games. So I got exposed to a lot of different supporters. By far the worst, and I mean by FAR... The worst supporters were Essendon. In one words:

Arrogant,
aggressive,
(more propensity for) violence (never had a scuffle not involving Essendon supporters),
disrespectful (to everyone else at the ground),
rude, abusive,
disingenuous,

That's not all of them, sure, but that's my experience fwiw.

Agree 100%, clearly the worst supporters to deal with especially this year.

[Cyberdoggie]

Agree 100%, clearly the worst supporters to deal with especially this year.

I doubt that. Can't be as bad as Carlton.

[Greystache]

I doubt that. Can't be as bad as Carlton.

It wasn't a guess, Slim holds an official position at Essendon's home ground.

[bulldogtragic]

Let's talk strategy now. Trade week could go many different ways, and Essendon might hope this holds up other trades thinking it will pressure us, the opportunity cost of holding out etc...

So, I think we follow Collingwood and Luke Ball and commit our second round pick to him. Certainty breeds confidence, and the PSD seems unnecessary. If that's our basis we know we have that and pick 4 as certainties.

So we keep 4.
we can go after Patton for 4 and Wood.
Or if no Patton, maybe pick 4 and 22 for 9 and 27 for Docherty. = A Sheed or Bontempelli possibly, Docherty and a lower pick for Crameri. If this is a strong chance we should tell them were doing it. Today it's pick 22, next week it could be 30...

I think we should take the PSD risk card off Essendon. We just tell them well identify the pick certain to recruit him (bw 22 and 30) and we seek a bonus player if we trade down the second round pick, so them holding out actually benefits us. Ball back in their court...

[always right]

Buhagier(sp?)

That's about it.

By memory...

Bulldogs to Bombers: Mark Alvey, Alan Stoneham
Bombers to Bulldogs: Wayne Foreman, Bill Berry, Tony Buhagier, Max Crow

[azabob]

By memory...

Bulldogs to Bombers: Mark Alvey, Alan Stoneham
Bombers to Bulldogs: Wayne Foreman, Bill Berry, Tony Buhagier, Max Crow

Did big Iija Grigic end up at Essendon in a round about way?

[AndrewP6]

Did big Iija Grigic end up at Essendon in a round about way?


picked up by them in the Draft after the Weagles let him go.

[1eyedog]

By memory...

Bulldogs to Bombers: Mark Alvey, Alan Stoneham
Bombers to Bulldogs: Wayne Foreman, Bill Berry, Tony Buhagier, Max Crow

Ok more than I thought but no players for some time.

[craigsahibee]

By memory...

Bulldogs to Bombers: Mark Alvey, Alan Stoneham
Bombers to Bulldogs: Wayne Foreman, Bill Berry, Tony Buhagier, Max Crow

I thought both Wayne Foreman and Bill Berry went to Essendon after the Bulldogs. Max Crow came to us from the Bombers via St Kilda.

[KT31]

I thought both Wayne Foreman and Bill Berry went to Essendon after the Bulldogs. Max Crow came to us from the Bombers via St Kilda.

Alan Stoneham was another who left us for the Don's.

[always right]

I thought both Wayne Foreman and Bill Berry went to Essendon after the Bulldogs. Max Crow came to us from the Bombers via St Kilda.

You might be right about Foreman but Berry definitely came from the bombers to us.

[Bulldog4life]

Keenan Reynolds came from Essendon under 19's to us. Does this count?:)

[Remi Moses]

Peter Hickmott came over in the hugely forgettable Hart Era.

[w3design]

I am not sure why folks seem concerned about the possibility of StKiljoy in regards the PSD. There is no guarantee they will even participate. Most seasons very few teams still have list vacancies post main draft that they use there anyway.
Even if they do, why would they choose to take a player who does not wish to go to them?
In a way Essendon are in much the same position, if Crameri states he wants to play elsewhere [Doggies], and is out of contract, why would they risk losing him for nothing, be it to us or anyone else, especially given their position re draft picks.

I know they are the most difficult team by far to deal with, but for mine they are merely playing poker...bluff and bluster, and know that if Crameri is serious about leaving, eventually it is inevitable that they must deal.
Being Essendon, they will always try to be totally unreasonable, but given our 'insider' knowledge of them, and how they operate, I would be both surprised and disappointed if we buy into overpaying for this deal.

[Maddog37]

The more I think about it, the more I even wonder why we are offering anything at all. Surely his manager could sound out the other 3 clubs in front of us and see what their intentions are.

[ReLoad]

Im hoping the AFLPA works it out so they are unrestricted free agents and can go to whoever they want to.

Personally i think pick 22 is overs given our ladder position and whats available to us.

I'm thinking that picks 4 and 22 can be used in a way to get Boyd or Patton.

Crameri, we wither get him as a FA or through the PSD.

[GVGjr]

I'm up for the fight. The Dons have to be realistic and a pick earlier than 22 isn't fair.

Hold your ground J-Mac. Give them nothing more

[Dry Rot]

If we can't/don't get Patton, then how about this?

WB pick #4 and Wood -> GWS, Jaksch and pick 10 -> WB.

Then...

WB pick #10 -> Lions for Docherty and Lions pick # 25

Then WB pick #25 -> Bombers for Crameri, take it or leave it.

So at the end of the day, we lose pick #4 for Jaksch, Docherty and Crameri.

[bulldogtragic]

If we can't/don't get Patton, then how about this?

WB pick #4 and Wood -> GWS, Jaksch and pick 10 -> WB.

Then...

WB pick #10 -> Lions for Docherty and Lions pick # 25

Then WB pick #25 -> Bombers for Crameri, take it or leave it.

So at the end of the day, we lose pick #4 for Jaksch, Docherty and Crameri.
Nice effort. Not sure Brisbane would give up 25 easily though, Docherty was a pick 13 I think and has shown form, so not sure pick 25 comes without us sweetening the deal a little more. But the principle is good.

[1eyedog]

If we can't/don't get Patton, then how about this?

WB pick #4 and Wood -> GWS, Jaksch and pick 10 -> WB.

Then...

WB pick #10 -> Lions for Docherty and Lions pick # 25

Then WB pick #25 -> Bombers for Crameri, take it or leave it.

So at the end of the day, we lose pick #4 for Jaksch, Docherty and Crameri.

If it ends up like this then you're the next list manager.

Seriously though, I can't see how this can't work, it's brilliant, you've absolutely nailed it.

If only we'd kept Justin Sherman we could have thrown him in as sweetener for Docherty.

[Scorlibo]

If we can't/don't get Patton, then how about this?

WB pick #4 and Wood -> GWS, Jaksch and pick 10 -> WB.

Then...

WB pick #10 -> Lions for Docherty and Lions pick # 25

Then WB pick #25 -> Bombers for Crameri, take it or leave it.

So at the end of the day, we lose pick #4 for Jaksch, Docherty and Crameri.

Pick 4 and Easton Wood! I'd take Wood over Jaksch or Docherty so it's more like #4 for one of those two and Crameri - no deal for mine.

[Bulldog Revolution]

If we can't/don't get Patton, then how about this?

WB pick #4 and Wood -> GWS, Jaksch and pick 10 -> WB.

Then...

WB pick #10 -> Lions for Docherty and Lions pick # 25

Then WB pick #25 -> Bombers for Crameri, take it or leave it.

So at the end of the day, we lose pick #4 for Jaksch, Docherty and Crameri.

Delightful thinking DR - if JMac and Co could pull that off it would be a terrific summer indeed

[bulldogtragic]

How big of dicks are Essendon supporters. Tweeting pictures of the Western Oval talking about how shit our facilities are and that Crameri is giving up rolled gold dumbells for what we have. They have no FN idea. So far up their own arse. They have no idea about us and what we have, but because it's theirs it's better. Elitist ignorant brainwashed arrogant deluded f**ksticks with a sense of entitlement.

Makes me sick!!!!

[Rocco Jones]

How big of dicks are Essendon supporters. Tweeting pictures of the Western Oval talking about how shit our facilities are and that Crameri is giving up rolled gold dumbells for what we have. They have no FN idea. So far up their own arse. They have no idea about us and what we have, but because it's theirs it's better. Elitist ignorant brainwashed arrogant deluded f**ksticks with a sense of entitlement.

Makes me sick!!!!

I'd imagine Essendon's facilities would be a lot like Ivan Drago's.

[azabob]

I'd imagine Essendon's facilities would be a lot like Ivan Drago's.

Do they even have facilities yet? Or has all that "supporter" funded money had to be used to keep Hirdy and the like on the pay role and look for a new coach in the mean time?

I bet the players love moving from cosmopolton Essendon to Tullamarine?

This could turn into a sour situation, just like when the St.Kilda players sooked from moving to Seaford from Moorabbin.

[azabob]

How big of dicks are Essendon supporters. Tweeting pictures of the Western Oval talking about how shit our facilities are and that Crameri is giving up rolled gold dumbells for what we have. They have no FN idea. So far up their own arse. They have no idea about us and what we have, but because it's theirs it's better. Elitist ignorant brainwashed arrogant deluded f**ksticks with a sense of entitlement.

Makes me sick!!!!

Dude, how do you find this stuff? Why are you following essendon supporting nobodies on twitter?

[craigsahibee]

Keenan Reynolds came from Essendon under 19's to us. Does this count?:)

I reckon we might have snared Monty from their supplementary list also.

[bulldogtragic]

Dude, how do you find this stuff? Why are you following essendon supporting nobodies on twitter?
No, I just search "Crameri" in twitter, for updates, and get all this garbage that comes with twitter.

[1eyedog]

How big of dicks are Essendon supporters. Tweeting pictures of the Western Oval talking about how shit our facilities are and that Crameri is giving up rolled gold dumbells for what we have. They have no FN idea. So far up their own arse. They have no idea about us and what we have, but because it's theirs it's better. Elitist ignorant brainwashed arrogant deluded f**ksticks with a sense of entitlement.

Makes me sick!!!!

It all really tells me how much Crameri leaving hurts them.

He is a massive loss to them and a massive coup for us.

[azabob]

No, I just search "Crameri" in twitter, for updates, and get all this garbage that comes with twitter.

Ah the good old search tool! Too funny.

[Greystache]

I'd imagine Essendon's facilities would be a lot like Ivan Drago's.

I've seen their facilities on the way to the airport quite a few times, it's a big windy paddock with a shed at one end. They can crap on all they like about having two custom built fields that mirror the MCG and Etihad all they like, but when it's just white lines painted on a big open field it's nothing to get excited about.

Training at that place would be like trying to do precision skill work at Williamstown.

[Eastdog]

How big of dicks are Essendon supporters. Tweeting pictures of the Western Oval talking about how shit our facilities are and that Crameri is giving up rolled gold dumbells for what we have. They have no FN idea. So far up their own arse. They have no idea about us and what we have, but because it's theirs it's better. Elitist ignorant brainwashed arrogant deluded f**ksticks with a sense of entitlement.

Makes me sick!!!!

We had that $20 million redevelopment of our facilities at the Whitten Oval for peats sake which former PM John Howard helped with so we have come a long way in that department. Geographically we are rivals with Essendon and North Melbourne.

[Twodogs]

Robert Amos came from Essendon to Footscray back in the late 70's/early '80s.

[Mofra]

I've seen their facilities on the way to the airport quite a few times, it's a big windy paddock with a shed at one end. They can crap on all they like about having two custom built fields that mirror the MCG and Etihad all they like, but when it's just white lines painted on a big open field it's nothing to get excited about.
It's also (apologies in advance to people who live out that way) a shithole.
The Seaford of the North.

From memory Essendon paid us to train at WO for a few session the year before last?

When we get kicked out of Whitten Oval by a bowls club, then they have permission to throw shit about our facilities. Not a moment before.

[westdog54]

It's also (apologies in advance to people who live out that way) a shithole.
The Seaford of the North.

From memory Essendon paid us to train at WO for a few session the year before last?

When we get kicked out of Whitten Oval by a bowls club, then they have permission to throw shit about our facilities. Not a moment before.

They've also had to take out a $5million loan because the money they could have used to bankroll the facilities has gone on legal/PR fees this year.

Funny that...:rolleyes:

[Twodogs]

It's also (apologies in advance to people who live out that way) a shithole.
The Seaford of the North.

From memory Essendon paid us to train at WO for a few session the year before last?

When we get kicked out of Whitten Oval by a bowls club, then they have permission to throw shit about our facilities. Not a moment before.



Heh! Bowls club...


It's funny because it's true!

[Doc26]

It all really tells me how much Crameri leaving hurts them.

He is a massive loss to them and a massive coup for us.

Completely off thread 1eyedog but god that Patton avatar of yours keeps reminding me of Jerry Lewis in a Bulldogs jumper. Makes me laugh each time I look at it.

[1eyedog]

Yep it's pretty cool I reckon.

Jerry Lewis look a likes aside, every time I look at it it makes me realise just how good our football jumper is and how crap the GWS jumper is.

[Sedat]

How big of dicks are Essendon supporters. Tweeting pictures of the Western Oval talking about how shit our facilities are and that Crameri is giving up rolled gold dumbells for what we have. They have no FN idea. So far up their own arse. They have no idea about us and what we have, but because it's theirs it's better. Elitist ignorant brainwashed arrogant deluded f**ksticks with a sense of entitlement.

Makes me sick!!!!
The beauty of our awesome training facilities are that Essendon supporting taxpayers contributed to funding it ;)

By contrast, they currently have little more than unfinished dregs on the arse-end of Melbourne Airport and nothing but a massive debt to show for it. And they got kicked out of their long-term home by a bowling club. Bunch of pussies.

[Doggy]

It's also (apologies in advance to people who live out that way) a shithole.
The Seaford of the North.

From memory Essendon paid us to train at WO for a few session the year before last?

When we get kicked out of Whitten Oval by a bowls club, then they have permission to throw shit about our facilities. Not a moment before.

Grew up in Tulla / Gladstone Park and still live "out that way".

Have you lived there before. Just wondering why you would call it is a shit hole.

I've never been to Seaford, so I can't compare.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

[B]

Grew up in Tulla / Gladstone Park and still live "out that way".

Have you lived there before. Just wondering why you would call it is a shit hole.

I've never been to Seaford, so I can't compare.

Yeh Mofra, I live in Frankston/Seaford after having lived in Footscray and the leafy little boxes on square grids of the eastern suburbs, so watch who you're calling a shithole or I'll have you taken out under contract.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Hey Mofra, where are you from, Maffra?

[Mofra]

Hey Mofra, where are you from, Maffra?
Lived in quite a number of places in SE Australia. Currently inner-North West

[Mofra]

[B]

Grew up in Tulla / Gladstone Park and still live "out that way".

Have you lived there before. Just wondering why you would call it is a shit hole.
Lived in Pascoe Vale and spent a bit of time up that way with friends who lived nearby. Certainly not my cup of tea.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Lived in Pascoe Vale and spent a bit of time up that way with friends who lived nearby. Certainly not my cup of tea.

I do enjoy the idea that Essendon's new facilities are exposed, windswept and in an area about which they have no reason to be elitist.

[Eastdog]

The inner west, north west and north are definitely becoming more affluent these days and are becoming more affordable options for people who can't afford to buy in the nice leafy Eastern suburbs.

[Doggy]

I do enjoy the idea that Essendon's new facilities are exposed, windswept and in an area about which they have no reason to be elitist.

I've been telling my Essendon mates, that they should have just merged with Tulla who play in the EDFL.

Tullamarine already have a good size ground and their clubrooms were big enough to hold my 18th birthday.

[LostDoggy]

Guys, take it to the "Places Bulldogtragic owns property" thread. GVG will have a fit if he sees this
4x4'ing of the thread.

[Eastdog]

Guys, take it to the "Places Bulldogtragic owns property" thread. GVG will have a fit if he sees this
4x4'ing of the thread.

I believe the how close to Whitten Oval thread that was your referring to M.R.M. Agree we better get back to the topic of this thread.

[bulldogtragic]

Guys, take it to the "Places Bulldogtragic owns property" thread. GVG will have a fit if he sees this
4x4'ing of the thread.
What???

[Dry Rot]

How big of dicks are Essendon supporters. Tweeting pictures of the Western Oval talking about how shit our facilities are and that Crameri is giving up rolled gold dumbells for what we have. They have no FN idea. So far up their own arse. They have no idea about us and what we have, but because it's theirs it's better. Elitist ignorant brainwashed arrogant deluded f**ksticks with a sense of entitlement.

Makes me sick!!!!

Isn't this what the Bomber's facilities look like?

http://images.smh.com.au/2011/05/26/2387142/art_heroin-420x0.jpg

[Mofra]

Now if someone could photoshop in some consent forms....

[Remi Moses]

The inner west, north west and north are definitely becoming more affluent these days and are becoming more affordable options for people who can't afford to buy in the nice leafy Eastern suburbs.

Some of us could own a street in "Leafy" Doncaster or Chaddy:rolleyes:

[SlimPickens]

So yeah I hope we get Crameri.

[Eastdog]

So yeah I hope we get Crameri.

Me too SP. He seems very keen to come to us.

[Greystache]

So yeah I hope we get Crameri.

Agreed. Let's get back on topic and stay there.

[azabob]

So yeah I hope we get Crameri.


Agreed. Let's get back on topic and stay there.

Do you both think Crameri is worth pick 22 and should we be chasing him?

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Yep it's pretty cool I reckon.

Jerry Lewis look a likes aside, every time I look at it it makes me realise just how good our football jumper is and how crap the GWS jumper is.

I think I'm beginning to fall victim to it's charms. I must protect myself.

[SlimPickens]

Do you both think Crameri is worth pick 22 and should we be chasing him?

Personally I do, but will be interested too see if he gets either unrestricted free agent status or through to the preseason draft. Like others I think we offer pick 22 and hold our ground. I think that is a fair and equatable trade.

[GVGjr]

What do you believe should be our best offer for Crameri?
Is pick 22 the best we should offer? Is that a fair and reasonable offer?

I know there would be a great benefit for the club if Crameri went to the PSD rather than doing the trade with the Bombers but given we are prepared to pay the kind of money to him then I think we owe it to him to try as hard as we can to get a reasonable deal done.

That being said, the current public position of the Bombers of wanting a first round pick for Crameri isn't something we should consider.

To be honest I think pick 22 is slightly overs however, if there are some FA compensations then that might slip to pick 25 which is right around the mark.

Overall I think we have to continue to rebuild our list through the draft but given we have chased Crameri so hard I don't have a problem using a 2nd round pick on him.

Essendon are desperate so I understand why they are posturing for a far better outcome but I wouldn't be prepared to accommodate them.

[chef]

I think pick 22 and an exchange of third round picks would be fair.

[GVGjr]

I think pick 22 and an exchange of third round picks would be fair.

Is there any reason why you think we need to sweeten the offer?

[Hotdog60]

I think pick 22 is fair enough and we hold most of the cards. The Dons are just trying to save face for their supports as any club would do in the same position.
They may well be prepare to get nothing and let him go to the PSD in the hope he get taken by another club and it looks better to their supporters that they stand tough.
The only thing that will suit all parties will be if the AFL give the FA. Essendon will get some sort of compo, looks like it was out of their hands for their supporters and the Dogs get their man.

[bulldogtragic]

What do you believe should be our best offer for Crameri?
Is pick 22 the best we should offer? Is that a fair and reasonable offer?

I know there would be a great benefit for the club if Crameri went to the PSD rather than doing the trade with the Bombers but given we are prepared to pay the kind of money to him then I think we owe it to him to try as hard as we can to get a reasonable deal done.

That being said, the current public position of the Bombers of wanting a first round pick for Crameri isn't something we should consider.

To be honest I think pick 22 is slightly overs however, if there are some FA compensations then that might slip to pick 25 which is right around the mark.

Overall I think we have to continue to rebuild our list through the draft but given we have chased Crameri so hard I don't have a problem using a 2nd round pick on him.

Essendon are desperate so I understand why they are posturing for a far better outcome but I wouldn't be prepared to accommodate them.
22 gets a very decent draft prospect. I don't think it needs sweetening, at all.

I do think we need to be aggressive. If the offer isn't accepted in the first week, we tell them well consider down trading the pick for a player from another club, say around pick 30.

Pick 30 will get the job done in the ND for us. Put the pressure on them, as 30 won't get DelSanto in a trade. I'm not afraid to use pick 30 in the ND essentially on Crameri and another player.

[chef]

Is there any reason why you think we need to sweeten the offer?

I just think he's worth a bit more than just pick 22-25.

I'm very excited about us getting him as he's a very good player. It's quite a coup for us:).

[ratsmac]

I think pick 22 is fair enough and we hold most of the cards. The Dons are just trying to save face for their supports as any club would do in the same position.
They may well be prepare to get nothing and let him go to the PSD in the hope he get taken by another club and it looks better to their supporters that they stand tough.
The only thing that will suit all parties will be if the AFL give the FA. Essendon will get some sort of compo, looks like it was out of their hands for their supporters and the Dogs get their man.

From what I'm led to believe that if the AFL decide on free agency for the Essendon players, there will be no compensation picks for them either. And rightly IMO.

[Maddog37]

I don't really think fair comes into it. Each trade is judged on its own merits and it just so happens we hold a little more sway this time as the pick is more valuable to Edon than it normally would be and we may even have thePSD as an option. Not to mention the possible ruling from the AFL, unlikely as it might be.

You can be sure of one thing and that is if the shoe was on the other foot, Essendon would take us for all we are worth.

[stefoid]

Isn't this what the Bomber's facilities look like?

http://images.smh.com.au/2011/05/26/2387142/art_heroin-420x0.jpg

Stefoid likes this

[GVGjr]

I just think he's worth a bit more than just pick 22-25.

I'm very excited about us getting him as he's a very good player. It's quite a coup for us:).


I don't think there is a need to do any more than pick 22. If they want more than that then I think it probably works for us. If they look unreasonable then they might ultimately force him into the PSD

[GVGjr]

Stefoid likes this

Lets stay on topic please

[Bulldog4life]

I don't think there is a need to do any more than pick 22. If they want more than that then I think it probably works for us. If they look unreasonable then they might ultimately force him into the PSD

I agree with this. You leave pick 22 on the table and don't budge. If they end up not taking the offer let's go to the PSD and have Crameri put a high price on himself.

[GVGjr]

I agree with this. You leave pick 22 on the table and don't budge. If they end up not taking the offer let's go to the PSD and have Crameri put a high price on himself.

I think Essendon have to look back to the standoff between Port and North for Ben Jacobs. In the end Port lost out because they refused the deal that North offered.