Crameri

[bornadog]

Peter Gordon on 774 now.

Says he hasn't been told that Crameri has been served or not. He would expect to have been told.

[KT31]

Why is that your opinion? All it will take is a Crameri / Gumbleton to come out and tell it like it is in order to reduce their sentence and the rest will follow. Essendon will have confidentially agreements in place on all their players / past players but the Feds will lift those pretty quickly in order to protect the players from potential law suits.

Just a feeling, I hope Crameri does come out and lambast the scum and reduce his potential sentence.
Hopefully this means he will be able to play many more games for the club.
But with the possibility of 30 plus lawyers involved ( unless its a class action) wanting to be paid as long as possible and the amount of time it has dragged on so far, I just feel (hopefully wrong for the players own welfare) we are a far way from the end of it.

[1eyedog]

Fair enough KT.

It's very strange that Gordon has not been informed about Crameri. If he was served surely the club President would know by now or is he keeping his cards close to his chest to protect the player?

[LostDoggy]

I'm thinking back to the drawn out process that we had with Essendon in regards to aquiring Carmeri.

Do you think the reason for the delay was a condition with the contract that held Essendon accountable if it all went pear shaped? Just a thought. But Crameri was an important player for them so didn't suprise me it took awhile to get the deal done.

[Mofra]

ASADA do not have the coin to make this a long play. All their resources went into the information gathering stage. They will feel they are in a very good position to be able to request show cause on 34 players. If ASADA think they should be punished the Federal Court will punish them if it comes to that. It would be highly unlikely that ASADA / the Feds will let this drag out for 4 years regardless of the defence.
Then Essendon just elevate the case to the High Court and Asada, like any Fed agency bar the Tax Office on rare occasions, will roll over.
(Sadly) I have first hand knowledge in this area.

[Ozza]

Peter Gordon on 774 now.

Says he hasn't been told that Crameri has been served or not. He would expect to have been told.

My understanding is that the players served notices are not identified (publically), unless the player chooses to reveal that information.

[Greystache]

My understanding is that the players served notices are not identified (publically), unless the player chooses to reveal that information.

I think the point BAD was making is if a player at an AFL club was given a show cause notice then the President of that club in all likelihood would be made aware of this by the player or football management.

[wimberga]

I think the point BAD was making is if a player at an AFL club was given a show cause notice then the President of that club in all likelihood would be made aware of this by the player or football management.

You are right, but then there is this:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/former-essendon-player-angus-monfries-under-advice-not-to-confirm-or-deny-if-he-has-been-served-show-cause-note-from-asada-in-doping-scandal/story-fni5f9de-1226952767352

"FORMER Essendon-turned-Port Adelaide player Angus Monfries is under advice not to confirm nor deny if he has been served a show cause note from ASADA – even to his current AFL club."

It seems the Legal advice to Essendon players is not to confirm or deny anything with their club, in an attempt to keep the players legal work at arms length from the clubs.

[bornadog]

You are right, but then there is this:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/former-essendon-player-angus-monfries-under-advice-not-to-confirm-or-deny-if-he-has-been-served-show-cause-note-from-asada-in-doping-scandal/story-fni5f9de-1226952767352

"FORMER Essendon-turned-Port Adelaide player Angus Monfries is under advice not to confirm nor deny if he has been served a show cause note from ASADA – even to his current AFL club."

It seems the Legal advice to Essendon players is not to confirm or deny anything with their club, in an attempt to keep the players legal work at arms length from the clubs.

Maybe he hasn't told the club.

[Twodogs]

I'm thinking back to the drawn out process that we had with Essendon in regards to aquiring Carmeri.

Do you think the reason for the delay was a condition with the contract that held Essendon accountable if it all went pear shaped? Just a thought. But Crameri was an important player for them so didn't suprise me it took awhile to get the deal done.

It could have been but I'm guessing it was more to do with Essendon wanting more than they got.

[Remi Moses]

I think the players should co-operate with this
Co-operation and pleading guilty seems the logical conclusion

[LostDoggy]

I think the players should co-operate with this
Co-operation and pleading guilty seems the logical conclusion

If the players do this and cop a 6 month ban, wasn't it said when this first surfaced that the players can actually take the ban during the off season?

[Cyberdoggie]

I think the players should co-operate with this
Co-operation and pleading guilty seems the logical conclusion

If they co-operate they will likely get a reduced sentence,

[Throughandthrough]

Peter Gordon on 774 now.

Says he hasn't been told that Crameri has been served or not. He would expect to have been told.


yeah right.

[F'scary]

...But with the possibility of 30 plus lawyers involved ( unless its a class action) wanting to be paid as long as possible and the amount of time it has dragged on so far, I just feel (hopefully wrong for the players own welfare) we are a far way from the end of it.

Sounds like Slater & Gordon at an ambulance festival.

[Remi Moses]

Yes Slater and Gordon chasing those reputible types like James Hardie:rolleyes:

[Remi Moses]

Nice gesture Slater and Gordon sponsoring disability inclusion game this week.

[F'scary]

Nice gesture Slater and Gordon sponsoring disability inclusion game this week.

Well, Crameri is going to need them now.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/zaharakis-among-essendon-players-off-asadas-hit-list-20140613-3a3g6.html

[GVGjr]

There is a very simple response the players need to give the investigators.

The club assured me there was no illegal or banned substances in the regime. I researched what they told me they were giving me and it all checked out. I have no idea if I actually received anything extra that was banned because what I was told everything was OK. Based on what I was told I'm as clear as day.

Please prove otherwise and tell me what I received and when?

[bulldogtragic]

There is a very simple response the players need to give the investigators.

The club assured me there was no illegal or banned substances in the regime. I researched what they told me they were giving me and it all checked out. I have no idea if I actually received anything extra that was banned because what I was told everything was OK. Based on what I was told I'm as clear as day.

Please prove otherwise and tell me what I received and when?

I'm not sure how well that would fly, Depending on which journo you believe, as they are all trying to out exclusive each other, Essendon may have tried to cover it's backside by getting players to sign waivers and/or permission slip type documents. If those say the WADA banned drug or something similar (which is allegation), and reviews of purchase orders of Essendon indicate that the drugs were in fact not the harmless version, but the WADA banned versions, then that is a significant problem for the players. If ASADA can prove to requisite standard of proof outside admissions, then these young men should be nervous.

[westdog54]

Sam Lane just said on 7 that she has seen one of the show cause notices and from what she read ASADA feels as though they have a strong case against the players.

[bulldogtragic]

Sam Lane just said on 7 that she has seen one of the show cause notices and from what she read ASADA feels as though they have a strong case against the players.

Oh well... Some may dismiss evidence as being 'circumstantial evidence', but if there's enough of it to meet evidentiary thresholds, then it might be best to take 6 months now and commence a pre-pre season training program.

[LostDoggy]

There is a very simple response the players need to give the investigators.

The club assured me there was no illegal or banned substances in the regime. I researched what they told me they were giving me and it all checked out. I have no idea if I actually received anything extra that was banned because what I was told everything was OK. Based on what I was told I'm as clear as day.

Please prove otherwise and tell me what I received and when?
My partner is a barrister. She was telling me that a circumstantial case can be considered proven by excluding other reasonable explanations. She used the example of rain, you walk outside, everything is wet but you didn't actually see it raining. However, it's the only reasonable explanation.

There has been much said of the players not knowing. This doesn't mean a thing, that's the excuse East German swimmers trolled out and that's why it's not accepted. They are professional athletes, there is a website that ASADA provides whereby players can check what they're taking and get a receipt to prove they checked.

Accepting the ban or going for the full not guilty route and not saying a word seems to be their only option from where I see it.

[bulldogtragic]

My partner is a barrister. She was telling me that a circumstantial case can be considered proven by excluding other reasonable explanations. She used the example of rain, you walk outside, everything is wet but you didn't actually see it raining. However, it's the only reasonable explanation.

There has been much said of the players not knowing. This doesn't mean a thing, that's the excuse East German swimmers trolled out and that's why it's not accepted. They are professional athletes, there is a website that ASADA provides whereby players can check what they're taking and get a receipt to prove they checked.

Accepting the ban or going for the full not guilty route and not saying a word seems to be their only option from where I see it.

Precisely. This is where Stew will have to look at AFL players historically in terms of time out of the system. Aker and Hall effectively had about 4-6 months off for 'issues', but seemed to be just ok. On the flip side, Carey had one year out and looked behind the 8 ball from the get go, Stew Dew had 2 years (?) and outside of 10 minutes in a grand final seemed behind it too. Even Tony Lockett couldn't do it.

If it's me, I burn everyone at Essendon, take 6 months from very soon to the pre-season and come back ready to prove a point with another 3 years on good coin.

[Remi Moses]

Not sure if government controlled doping as in East Germany is the same as Essendon .

[bulldogtragic]

Not sure if government controlled doping as in East Germany is the same as Essendon .

The principle is the same. Those in authority gave it to me, it's not my fault, so don't punish me. That's not how anti doping authorities work, it's harsh, but it's the only way it can work.

[Remi Moses]

God knows what consequences you'd face knocking back the East Germans.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

If it's me, I burn everyone at Essendon, take 6 months from very soon to the pre-season and come back ready to prove a point with another 3 years on good coin.

My point here is that I too would do the deal with ASADA, take the 6 months now and be back for next year. Im sure the club will be looking at this also.

We fail to last spot on the ladder get the No1 draft pick and have the bonus of getting a full side for round 1, 2015

Unlike Essendon who will drag it out and have another year stuff at the completion of this rubbish

Does anyone think that you may get some protection if your the first to confess?

If one of the guys why have left rolled over it would but Essendon to the sword.

[KT31]

Oh well... Some may dismiss evidence as being 'circumstantial evidence', but if there's enough of it to meet evidentiary thresholds, then it might be best to take 6 months now and commence a pre-pre season training program.

Is the six months on offer, originally the talk was four years reduced to two if you roll over.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Is the six months on offer, originally the talk was four years reduced to two if you roll over.
Sam Lane said last night, six months to two years and she's looked into it and when she was pressed for a judgement, seriously recommended cooperating and taking the six months for all.
Thank the gods its going to be taken seriously and there is clout there to deal with the cheats and abusers who already had such an advantage. It reeks of greed and corporate style recruitment of people who want to just win without love of the game.

[bulldogtragic]

Is the six months on offer, originally the talk was four years reduced to two if you roll over.

Sam Lane reported it, she said she's seen one of the SC notices. All hypothetical, but six months isn't worst case scenario for us. 2 years could ruin Stew if he can't train and is left out of 2 years of development. With that in mind, I'd take the short ban and let Essendon take the fall.

[Greystache]

Sam Lane reported it, she said she's seen one of the SC notices. All hypothetical, but six months isn't worst case scenario for us. 2 years could ruin Stew if he can't train and is left out of 2 years of development. With that in mind, I'd take the short ban and let Essendon take the fall.

Suspended players are allowed to train, just not compete. That's why the media is reporting that if everyone takes a 6 month ban, they can train all preseason as usual and be ready to go round 1 next year. I can't see WADA allowing that to happen in any fashion personally.

[bulldogtragic]

Suspended players are allowed to train, just not compete. That's why the media is reporting that if everyone takes a 6 month ban, they can train all preseason as usual and be ready to go round 1 next year. I can't see WADA allowing that to happen in any fashion personally.

This is the big question. If WADA see this an opportunity to make an example in the biggest sport in Australia, then the players could be hit no matter what with bigger bans. No winners here... Except for James Hird.

[Twodogs]

What if Stew takes the plea but Essendon wins their High Court action and nobody else gets suspended?

[Greystache]

This is the big question. If WADA see this an opportunity to make an ample in the biggest sport in Australia, then the players could be hit no matter what with bigger bans. No winners here... Except for James Hird.

Unless WADA want to make an example of Hird and charge him with being the main instigator and driver of a systemic drug program and ban him for life. It would be a big step forward for the game.

[bulldogtragic]

Unless WADA want to make an example of Hird and charge him with being the main instigator and driver of a systemic drug program and ban him for life. It would be a big step forward for the game.

I'd like nothing more than that. How the effective head of a doping program, even unwitting, gets millions of dollars to take a year off and get a further contract is offensive to all supporters and lovers of our game. If WADA did that I agree, it would be a great big positive step away from the saga.

[westdog54]

What if Stew takes the plea but Essendon wins their High Court action and nobody else gets suspended?

Then such is life. But of the Bombers want to fight then let them fight. No one else needs to be dragged down with them.

[divvydan]

The idea is to force athletes to miss a period of time of competition. If it's "6mths", then it would probably be a tribunal suspension like Tippett got (11 weeks or so) that combined with preseason etc, ends up close to the 6mths.

[KT31]

Did I hear correctly yesterday that the AFL is in full support of Essendon and will contribute to their legal costs ?
If so, I am disgusted and would hope all other Presidents would protest the decision.
I may be way off ( and I hope so ) as I was off to footy and was having a heavy debate with my youngest Pup on our local teams selection and why, at his age, a game in the under 16's and half a game in the ones is better than a full game under his 'mug coach of a Dad' in the two's.

[Twodogs]

Then such is life. But of the Bombers want to fight then let them fight. No one else needs to be dragged down with them.


It's just the sort of thing I can see happening to us.

[boydogs]

The conspiracy theorist in me is saying ASADA don't want to lose face from lack of evidence or the AOD misinformation and the AFL and Essendon want this to go away, so they've teamed up to kill it on a technicality

[always right]

Surprised that an esteemed journo like Sam Lane didn't suggest they blame the whole thing on the male equivalent of "Rushing woman's syndrome".

[LostDoggy]

What if Stew takes the plea but Essendon wins their High Court action and nobody else gets suspended?

Then he stands as the only bloke to take responsibility for what has happened. Nothing wrong with being a leader, but it has it's risks.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Have to wonder/assume it's having an effect on Crameri. He has been pretty damn terrible for 4 or 5 weeks now.

[LostDoggy]

Have to wonder/assume it's having an effect on Crameri. He has been pretty damn terrible for 4 or 5 weeks now.

Must be having some effect. But Crameri looks injured for mine. A couple of times on the weekend his lateral movement was just non existent. Saw a trainer working pretty hard on what looked like his hip at one stage.

[boydogs]

Must be having some effect. But Crameri looks injured for mine. A couple of times on the weekend his lateral movement was just non existent. Saw a trainer working pretty hard on what looked like his hip at one stage.

He's developed a habit of kicking the ball off the ground instead of bending down to it which may be related

[Throughandthrough]

Oh well... Some may dismiss evidence as being 'circumstantial evidence', but if there's enough of it to meet evidentiary thresholds, then it might be best to take 6 months now and commence a pre-pre season training program.


Good post. And i doubt he would have much compassion for the Powers to be at Essendon.

[bulldogtragic]

Good post. And i doubt he would have much compassion for the Powers to be at Essendon.

If we could put every bit of PR machine the club could master, Stew could be the hero of the saga, that stood up with honour despite being the victim. Every story needs a hero, and if he and we look good, then that's a nice byproduct of avoiding 2 years and having him play dink around for a few seasons at less than 100% emotion. Suing your old club, the AFL, ASADA, anyone else, suing your old mates at the club and suing your old mentors, being tied for years in this isn't going to have him playing optimum footy while he might try to sue. And worse yet it could mean nothing.

The more I think, the more I think Stew should look out for himself and let whatever happen from telling the truth out. This story needs a moral hero and someone to stand-up for the good as light reflecting off the darkness. If he goes soon, he comes back into competitive footy 6 weeks before the NAB circus cup, right on time. He's not probably going to be the difference between finals or not this year, but next year i'm hoping like hell he will be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) It would suck like hell, and hurt like hell don't get me wrong but lawsuits of this magnitude are not fun to be in and are all consuming, so playing through that isn't nearly a good idea and a 2 year ban might still be there anyway. We've just got to support him as best we can as a club and membership base with whatever he decides.

[soupman]

Surely if the players do get hit with a ban it would be a 6 month competition ban, meaning that's effectively 24 rounds and not some weak pre-season suspension which means nothing.

[bulldogtragic]

Surely if the players do get hit with a ban it would be a 6 month competition ban, meaning that's effectively 24 rounds and not some weak pre-season suspension which means nothing.

You'd think so, but if ASADA really wants a smoking gun or final nail in the Essendon coffin, who knows what they could offer to the first player depending on what they might say. I'd get a very persuasive lawyer, like Peter Gordon for example, and try to find a sensible agreement that was 6 months on a calender if he gives them exactly what they want, if not, Stew reconsiders his options.

[LostDoggy]

You'd think so, but if ASADA really wants a smoking gun or final nail in the Essendon coffin, who knows what they could offer to the first player depending on what they might say. I'd get a very persuasive lawyer, like Peter Gordon for example, and try to find a sensible agreement that was 6 months on a calender if he gives them exactly what they want, if not, Stew reconsiders his options.

You don't pick your own punishment. He can deal with ASADA and let it be known he's fully cooperating for a reduced penalty, but I'd be surprised if they'd let a drug cheat pick his own sentence. He'd have to come forward, then see what they offer him and if it's less than 18 months, take it. You can't take the moral high ground and wear the Integrity Hat whilst at the same time demanding you don't get punished for your wrongdoings.

Everybody is raving on about 6 months, but that's if
a) they fully cooperate and make complete, full admissions AND
b) they are considered to have not known what they were being injected with.

He might nab a, I can't see him convincing them of b when his name is on a consent form with Thymosin written on it.

I think a year is more realistic a penalty and at that, I'd still want him to come forward like you said in your earlier post. Yeah, he'd miss a sizeable chunk of 2015, but that's the way the cookie crumbles if you're staring down something of this magnitude.

[bulldogtragic]

You don't pick your own punishment. He can deal with ASADA and let it be known he's fully cooperating for a reduced penalty, but I'd be surprised if they'd let a drug cheat pick his own sentence. He'd have to come forward, then see what they offer him and if it's less than 18 months, take it. You can't take the moral high ground and wear the Integrity Hat whilst at the same time demanding you don't get punished for your wrongdoings.

Everybody is raving on about 6 months, but that's if
a) they fully cooperate and make complete, full admissions AND
b) they are considered to have not known what they were being injected with.

He might nab a, I can't see him convincing them of b when his name is on a consent form with Thymosin written on it.

I think a year is more realistic a penalty and at that, I'd still want him to come forward like you said in your earlier post. Yeah, he'd miss a sizeable chunk of 2015, but that's the way the cookie crumbles if you're staring down something of this magnitude.

Not suggesting he can circumvent the ASADA process, but as with any matters in a judicial or quasi-judicial setting, an advocate who is highly respected and persuasive can have discussions with McDevot (or co) of a general nature to test the water with some hypothetical questions. If the answers were such that any player looking to assist as the first witness might get 6 months calender, and then the next few 6 in competition and then others come what may.... Just testing the water, if you go into most Magistrate Courts all day every day, (good) defence lawyers usually ask what the expected penalty may be before formally pleaing for their clients. Magistrates' are pretty good with it too.

[Twodogs]

ASADA and WADA are more Star Chamber than Magistrate's Court though.

[LostDoggy]

Not suggesting he can circumvent the ASADA process, but as with any matters in a judicial or quasi-judicial setting, an advocate who is highly respected and persuasive can have discussions with McDevot (or co) of a general nature to test the water with some hypothetical questions. If the answers were such that any player looking to assist as the first witness might get 6 months calender, and then the next few 6 in competition and then others come what may.... Just testing the water, if you go into most Magistrate Courts all day every day, (good) defence lawyers usually ask what the expected penalty may be before formally pleaing for their clients. Magistrates' are pretty good with it too.

ASADA won't hand out the penalties, the AFL Tribunal will.

[bulldogtragic]

ASADA won't hand out the penalties, the AFL Tribunal will.

True, but if ASADA tell players that they will appeal every AFLT sentence under 2 years, then it's hard to see why anyone would negotiate to come forward, maybe they say different? But then again, if WADA comes over the top... I think we were all hoping this wouldn't involve him. How much benefit dis Hird really think it was going to get his players???

[boydogs]

He might nab a, I can't see him convincing them of b when his name is on a consent form with Thymosin written on it.

There are two types of Thymosin, one legal one not. I think they've got an invoice for the bad one but that doesn't mean the players consented to that one.

[Reigning Maddogs]

There are two types of Thymosin, one legal one not. I think they've got an invoice for the bad one but that doesn't mean the players consented to that one.

There is a little bit more evidence than that...Born a Scragger is on the money...

[boydogs]

Essendon's submission to the court

http://www.fedcourt.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/25233/Essendon-Orginating-Appliation.pdf
http://www.fedcourt.gov.au/case-management-services/access-to-files-and-transcripts/online-files/essendon-v-asada

[bornadog]

Season 2015 Totals/Averages






GM
K
HB
D
M
G
B
T
HO
FF
FA
CP
CLE


Total
8
51
79
130
24
9
7
21
3
4
12
55
7


Average
8
6.4
9.9
16.2
3.0
1.1
0.9
2.6
0.4
0.5
1.5
6.9
0.9







Crameri has been very poor this season other than a couple of games.

Maybe he hasn't adapted to his role since Tom Boyd has come in.

[Ghost Dog]

Season 2015 Totals/Averages






GM
K
HB
D
M
G
B
T
HO
FF
FA
CP
CLE


Total
8
51
79
130
24
9
7
21
3
4
12
55
7


Average
8
6.4
9.9
16.2
3.0
1.1
0.9
2.6
0.4
0.5
1.5
6.9
0.9







Crameri has been very poor this season other than a couple of games.

Maybe he hasn't adapted to his role since Tom Boyd has come in.

What would be your benchmark for him? 6 kicks and 1 goal a game does seem a bit low.

[jeemak]

Interesting to compare raw numbers:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-western-bulldogs--stewart-crameri

This is I suppose a good reason why qualitative assessment of player output is important.

[bornadog]

Interesting to compare raw numbers:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-western-bulldogs--stewart-crameri

This is I suppose a good reason why qualitative assessment of player output is important.

He is way down in output in the 8 games this season

[jeemak]

I'd love to have an understanding of where he's getting the ball this year compared to last year. My instinct tells me he's not getting it as often in scoring areas, but until I saw the stats I thought he got more of the footy last year!

I thought he was excellent against Sydney, and with a few more goals kicked I wonder if we would be worried about his form.

There were a few games last year where he didn't do a lot however, he managed to have games where he was dominant as a forward and kick 3-4 goals.

[always right]

I haven't been as disappointed in Crameri this as others appear to be. I do however think he struggles to put together four quarters....he seems to fall away after halftime. No idea if the stats support this.

[1eyedog]

I haven't been as disappointed in Crameri this as others appear to be. I do however think he struggles to put together four quarters....he seems to fall away after halftime. No idea if the stats support this.

Agreed. His intent is still there and he is still running the other way. He did chase a fair bit of tail when he went into the midfield against the Demons. He's not the only player having an inconsistent season.

[boydogs]

He's due a big one, but he's only 5 marks and 5 goals in total behind the same point last season

[bornadog]

He's due a big one, but he's only 5 marks and 5 goals in total behind the same point last season

Those 5 goals could have given us wins over Saints and Freo. :)

[1eyedog]

Those 5 goals could have given us wins over Saints and Freo. :)

So would have dropping Cordy after Sydney.

[boydogs]

Those 5 goals could have given us wins over Saints and Freo. :)

Stringer & Boyd are probably attracting some of the ball that was kicked to Crameri last year. Stringer's on 18 goals and Boyd's on 10, last year Stringer was in defense and the VFL for half the year and Jones kicked 12 goals in total

[Twodogs]

Stringer & Boyd are probably attracting some of the ball that was kicked to Crameri last year. Stringer's on 18 goals and Boyd's on 10, last year Stringer was in defense and the VFL for half the year and Jones kicked 12 goals in total

And Dickson has slotted 13 too. Last year he only played four games for 3 goals.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He's been pushing up the ground a little too, which personally I don't think he's suited to. High half forward is fine but Crameri pushing into the defensive half isn't what we want.

His pressure has been OK but he needs to do more than he currently is. I wouldn't say he's been poor, but he should be better.

[Ghost Dog]

TBB - In regards to pushing up the ground, do you reckon he is a bit lacking in tank, or what's the thinking there?
Anyway, a quality player, that will draw a quality defender. That's good in itself, but would like to see him kick one or two more each game. I like him as a person, and really hope he comes on a bit stronger.

[lemmon]

TBB - In regards to pushing up the ground, do you reckon he is a bit lacking in tank, or what's the thinking there?
Anyway, a quality player, that will draw a quality defender. That's good in itself, but would like to see him kick one or two more each game. I like him as a person, and really hope he comes on a bit stronger.

Also been playing as a genuine mid quite a lot. He was one of the guys entrusted to start in the centre square at the first bounce of either the third or last quarter (I can't remember which) against the Dees. I think it's Bevo wanting another big body around the ball which we're lacking at the moment

[The Bulldogs Bite]

TBB - In regards to pushing up the ground, do you reckon he is a bit lacking in tank, or what's the thinking there?
Anyway, a quality player, that will draw a quality defender. That's good in itself, but would like to see him kick one or two more each game. I like him as a person, and really hope he comes on a bit stronger.

Versatility is a big part of the modern game and Crameri is noted for having a big tank, so that's why he's been pushing up the ground a lot more than he has in previous seasons. We also like to have Crameri running back towards goal, as he can use his endurance and pace to burn most opponents off.

However, it works better in theory than practice. His ball handling skills are quite poor, especially below his knees, and he takes longer than most players to make a decision with ball in hand. Thus, he often either gets caught holding the ball or he attempts to do too much (ie. that play v Melbourne when he tried taking on too many and got nailed).

As a high half forward pushing up to the wings who then turns his opponent around and runs back to goal, he's very effective, but I don't like him as a mid - not even for five minutes.

[DragzLS1]

Not sure how many watch Crameri when at the game live, but he does an enormous amount of running off the ball. His tank is big and has good speed for a player his size and weight. He may get a little lost some times in the middle of the ground which may be why some stats are down. This would be normal for a player that usually doesnt spend much time there. I like to see him around the forward 50 arc especially if we are transitioning from defence to attack, he will burn his defender for pace and will get into the right spots closer to goal. He can't do this if hes playing in the middle of the park like he did against Melbourne..

[Mofra]

I haven't been as disappointed in Crameri this as others appear to be. I do however think he struggles to put together four quarters....he seems to fall away after halftime. No idea if the stats support this.
To the naked eye he doesn't have quite such a settled role as last year. He's playing up the ground a little more, sometimes high forward, sometimes in the middle, it's hard to know where he'll be from one quarter to the next.
I'd expect that to have some impact on his numbers.

[Cyberdoggie]

To the naked eye he doesn't have quite such a settled role as last year. He's playing up the ground a little more, sometimes high forward, sometimes in the middle, it's hard to know where he'll be from one quarter to the next.
I'd expect that to have some impact on his numbers.

Hi Goal Tally this year is down I believe. If he's going to be pushing up more he needs to get more of it. Spent some time in the middle last week and didn't have an impact.

[bornadog]

Crameri out with injury

[Hotdog60]

Listed he done an Adductor what ever that means ;)

[comrade]

Crameri dropped

No he isn't.

[bornadog]

No he isn't.
ok, corrected

[Greystache]

Listed he done an Adductor what ever that means ;)

Groin. The injury may or may not have been self :D inflicted

[bulldogtragic]

Where is he at right now?

[comrade]

Where is he at right now?

Some of his defensive efforts were fantastic and showed he has learnt a few things by playing at Footscray.

Didn't hit the scoreboard which is disappointing.

Not as concerned with him as others seem to be.

[Mantis]

Where is he at right now?

I'm not sure what his role is at the minute.. Seems to be playing very 'high'.

As with comrade defensively he was fine, just not much of an attacking option.

[Twodogs]

I like that he has developed a noticible defensive side to his game. Even on a day when couldn't get his hands on the ball much he still made some servicible contributions.

[GVGjr]

Where is he at right now?

He needed the run and will be better for it. Once we get our forward line right we are going to be a handful.

[Remi Moses]

Thought he was reasonable .
Forwards just play such a different role now, and he's more a mid who rolls forward .

[Mantis]

He needed the run and will be better for it. Once we get our forward line right we are going to be a handful.

What's our ideal line-up up forward?

[Rocco Jones]

What's our ideal line-up up forward?

IMO it's clearly the area of our team that needs the most time.

Tom Boyd developing into a consistently dangerous option as a monster forward will make it easier for us to play another tall like Redpath.

Stringer has had his career best year. Getting his tank to anywhere near AFL average would make him an absolute beast there. Boyd and Stringer being around their peak will make life a lot easier for Crameri (if he is still in that zone himself at the time). A bit like Roughead, Bruest, Gunston and Cyril all making life easier for each other.

Then the small forwards who offer pressure. Dickson and a heap of kids who seem suited to the role, namely Daniel, McLean and Honeychurch. Again development is huge with this pack.

[GVGjr]

What's our ideal line-up up forward?

To me it's something like Boyd, Dickson, Crameri, Dahlhaus, Stringer and someone out McLean, Hrovat, Webb and Honeychurch.

[Sedat]

IMO it's clearly the area of our team that needs the most time.

Tom Boyd developing into a consistently dangerous option as a monster forward will make it easier for us to play another tall like Redpath.

Stringer has had his career best year. Getting his tank to anywhere near AFL average would make him an absolute beast there. Boyd and Stringer being around their peak will make life a lot easier for Crameri (if he is still in that zone himself at the time). A bit like Roughead, Bruest, Gunston and Cyril all making life easier for each other.

Then the small forwards who offer pressure. Dickson and a heap of kids who seem suited to the role, namely Daniel, McLean and Honeychurch. Again development is huge with this pack.
Puopolo is the other one in Hawthorn's forward line who is frankly elite at pressuring opposition defensive rebounders and
also contributing to the scoreboard in his own right. Doesn't receive the plaudits that his fantastic form warrants.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

IMO it's clearly the area of our team that needs the most time.

Tom Boyd developing into a consistently dangerous option as a monster forward will make it easier for us to play another tall like Redpath.

Stringer has had his career best year. Getting his tank to anywhere near AFL average would make him an absolute beast there. Boyd and Stringer being around their peak will make life a lot easier for Crameri (if he is still in that zone himself at the time). A bit like Roughead, Bruest, Gunston and Cyril all making life easier for each other.

Then the small forwards who offer pressure. Dickson and a heap of kids who seem suited to the role, namely Daniel, McLean and Honeychurch. Again development is huge with this pack.

Stringer does his best work closer to goal so why not play him as a leading FF with Campbell and Boyd alternating in the ruck and a forward pocket. Campbell has proved that he can take a mark and kick a goal as a forward. Crameri has always played his best football from a half forward flank where he is at his most dangerous. Getting Roberts and Hamling back would enable us to play Roughead at CHF where his overhead marking would be a bonus.
Players like Dickson Dahlhaus and Daniel would then complete a more than capable attack.I am yet to be convinced that neither Redpath or Tom Boyd is our best option as a FF.

[Twodogs]

Stringer does his best work closer to goal so why not play him as a leading FF with Campbell and Boyd alternating in the ruck and a forward pocket. Campbell has proved that he can take a mark and kick a goal as a forward. Crameri has always played his best football from a half forward flank where he is at his most dangerous. Getting Roberts and Hamling back would enable us to play Roughead at CHF where his overhead marking would be a bonus.
Players like Dickson Dahlhaus and Daniel would then complete a more than capable attack.I am yet to be convinced that neither Redpath or Tom Boyd is our best option as a FF.

Like Ablett and Brownless at Geelong in the mid nineties.

[bornadog]

.I am yet to be convinced that neither Redpath or Tom Boyd is our best option as a FF.

I feel Tom Boyd straightens us up a bit. Still only 19 he will only improve.

[Mantis]

To me it's something like Boyd, Dickson, Crameri, Dahlhaus, Stringer and someone out McLean, Hrovat, Webb and Honeychurch.

Dahlhaus is becoming more and more a midfielder now.. It's been pretty obvious over the past couple of weeks that we really miss a quick small who tackles well. For all Daniel is, tackling us not a strength and we really miss the pressure that Dahlhaus and Honeychurch were applying in the early part of the season.

[Ozza]

Back on Crameri....I feel like at AFL level he is sacrificing his own game to help us with our current lack of midfield depth.

Hard for me to be critical of him at the moment with that in mind. He could possibly change with Stringer a bit more - because as much as I am very much in the camp of Jake being a forward long term - I think he seems to help Stringer's game, and our side, when he has a few bursts through the midfield. Crameri getting some time deeper forward might break up the grind of the type of game he is being asked to play at the moment also.

[Mofra]

Dahlhaus is becoming more and more a midfielder now.. It's been pretty obvious over the past couple of weeks that we really miss a quick small who tackles well. For all Daniel is, tackling us not a strength and we really miss the pressure that Dahlhaus and Honeychurch were applying in the early part of the season.
I'd try to fit him back in the side. His energy at the contest is really noticeable and we generally played our best football when he is in the side.

[Mantis]

I'd try to fit him back in the side. His energy at the contest is really noticeable and we generally played our best football when he is in the side.

Agree.. Just needs some continuity at the moment, but his game style and lack of real body strength means he is more prone to contact injuries at this stage.

Really interetsing to see how our forward-line develops over the next 18 months, got some real depth there now (when all players are fit) which should lead to some strong competition for spots.

[LostDoggy]

Puopolo is the other one in Hawthorn's forward line who is frankly elite at pressuring opposition defensive rebounders and
also contributing to the scoreboard in his own right. Doesn't receive the plaudits that his fantastic form warrants.

Kills me to think that he should be running around in our jumper, spoke to his brother and he was not to happy that the deal fell through.

[azabob]

Kills me to think that he should be running around in our jumper, spoke to his brother and he was not to happy that the deal fell through.

Do you mean you spoke to his brother at the time? What deal do you speak of?

[Rocco Jones]

We were set to draft Pupolo and mentioned it in the media.

[bulldogtragic]

We were set to draft Pupolo and mentioned it in the media.

We were due to take him at our next live pick in that draft.

[comrade]

Thought he was very good today, especially early.

Took some nice contested marks which is always a sign he's in good touch. Hopefully after a few runs, he's ready for a big end to the year.

Seemed sore at the end, though. Any word if he copped an injury?

[Greystache]

His best game since the Sydney game. He seemed to play forward more which better suits him.

[Doc26]

Thought he was very good today, especially early.

Took some nice contested marks which is always a sign he's in good touch. Hopefully after a few runs, he's ready for a big end to the year.

Seemed sore at the end, though. Any word if he copped an injury?

There was some word that he hurt his lower leg possibly an ankle in the last but I haven't heard any more of it.

[Rocco Jones]

I really liked his game today. Vital early.

[azabob]

Played a very good game. His mark in the goal square in the first was a strong mark.

The clutch goal at the end of the 3rd was unreal - especially considering his off / on goal kicking.

[LostDoggy]

He was really strong today. Contested marks, shrugged tackles. Only criticism was needed to take the first hanball option more often.

[Smads57]

Was Tom Boyd absence from the forward line helpful in Crameri's game today ie not having to stay out of Tom's way in marking contests?

i also prefer Crammers to play forward vs midfield.

[Twodogs]

Was it Crameri early on that took a mark in defence kicked to the first option and then took off for the forward 50 where he ended up taking the mark (from the play he started) and kicking our first behind?

[merantau]

Crameri played a very assured game today. A very strong player and his goal at a crucial point in the game was a team lifter.

[SonofScray]

I had him in my votes. A really strong game from hiim and a well timed return to form for mine. His bulking work, hard running and ability to win a hot footy were vital early on and hardly wavered as the game wore on. Really pleased with that performance.

[Go_Dogs]

Was it Crameri early on that took a mark in defence kicked to the first option and then took off for the forward 50 where he ended up taking the mark (from the play he started) and kicking our first behind?

It was indeed. He's a good runner and becomes very dangerous when he's working back into the F50 hard.

[Twodogs]

It was indeed. He's a good runner and becomes very dangerous when he's working back into the F50 hard.

Would have been great if he had kicked it. Look good on the highlight reel.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Crameri played a very assured game today. A very strong player and his goal at a crucial point in the game was a team lifter.

Crameri did play very well after a poor season when more was expected from him. Hurley took him to the cleaners last year so it will be interesting to see if he lines up again on Crameri on Sunday.

[JohnGentStand]

Great to see some good form from Crammers & Hunter. It starts to round out a best 22.

[bulldogtragic]

Imagine when Tom Boyd will still have the better opponent despite Stew kicking 6. Good times ahead. Welcome back Stewie.

[Go_Dogs]

Great game from him today, has had a good couple of weeks. Going to be an important player in September if he can keep this form up.

[ledge]

Imagine when Tom Boyd will still have the better opponent despite Stew kicking 6. Good times ahead. Welcome back Stewie.

7;-)

[Remi Moses]

This has been building.
Great to see him punish the old team.
Notice they didn't even bother booing him

[jeemak]

So happy he hit his PB against EFC.

If what I've been told is true, he was treated extremely poorly on his way out of Windy Hill by some of the more senior players at the club, one in particular.

[G-Mo77]

So happy he hit his PB against EFC.

If what I've been told is true, he was treated extremely poorly on his way out of Windy Hill by some of the more senior players at the club, one in particular.

Care to name that one?

I was happy for him, he's struggled against them in previous encounters. Usually when I talk to a Bombres supporter I get to hear how injury prone and overrated he is so I'm looking forward to showing those clowns he beat their whole team off his own boot.

[jeemak]

Care to name that one?

I was happy for him, he's struggled against them in previous encounters. Usually when I talk to a Bombres supporter I get to hear how injury prone and overrated he is so I'm looking forward to showing those clowns he beat their whole team off his own boot.

I think there was a lot of player pressure placed on him to stay at the club and stick together with his mates in the face of the drugs scandal.

Apparently he was belted by one senior player (who didn't play today) once his decision to leave was made.

I won't name the player.

[Eastdog]

He has been great the last 2 weeks. Really great to see him recapture his form.

[LostDoggy]

What a show! Stu beat his old club by himself. His previous games against them have been sub par. We are playing as a team but individuals are turning corners too.

[SonofScray]

I think there was a lot of player pressure placed on him to stay at the club and stick together with his mates in the face of the drugs scandal.

Apparently he was belted by one senior player (who didn't play today) once his decision to leave was made.

I won't name the player.

Perhaps he thought Stu was a taxi driver.

[Twodogs]

I can't think of another time where one of our players has outscored the opposition by himself. Even the day KT kicked 15 St Kida scored 16.

[Rocco Jones]

I can't think of another time where one of our players has outscored the opposition by himself. Even the day KT kicked 15 St Kida scored 16.

Justin Charles, Doug Hawkins and Chris Grant all kicked more goals than Carlton in a game at Whitten Oval in 1991. Might have helped that the Blues only kicked one for the day...

[bornadog]

Justin Charles, Doug Hawkins and Chris Grant all kicked more goals than Carlton in a game at Whitten Oval in 1991. Might have helped that the Blues only kicked one for the day...
Surprised Twodogs forgot that one

[LostDoggy]

What a great day that was. From memory they only kicked that goal deep into the last qtr as well (kicked by Mark Arceri who I knew fairly well as a regular at the old Newport TAB - good bloke for a Carlton player, which doesn't say much admittedly).

[merantau]

Perhaps he thought Stu was a taxi driver.
I see you've got a long memory. If it was him - once a thug, always a thug.

[jeemak]

I see you've got a long memory. If it was him - once a thug, always a thug.

It wasn't.

[LostDoggy]

Whoever it was, it highlights Stewie's courage in standing up to them and demanding a trade. I'm thinking something along the lines of Rudyard Kipling: "If you can keep your head when all about you, are losing theirs and blaming it on you."

[Grantysghost]

For those on Twitter, a guy called the image assassin has mocked up an image of biblical proportions regarding our Stewart's performance yesterday. Not a bad effort! https://twitter.com/ImageAssassin/status/628030706371858432 (Crammers walks on water)

http://twitter.com/ImageAssassin/status/628030706371858432

[Stefcep]

His kicking technique is just sublime. Probably the straightest kick we have when he has his confidence up.

[Grantysghost]

Apologies stuffed the link - it's such a good image thought it worth posting
For those on Twitter, a guy called the image assassin has mocked up an image of biblical proportions regarding our Stewart's performance yesterday. Not a bad effort! https://twitter.com/ImageAssassin/status/628030706371858432 (https://twitter.com/ImageAssassin/status/628030706371858432[/URL])[/QUOTE]

[Mofra]

His kicking technique is just sublime. Probably the straightest kick we have when he has his confidence up.
Dickson say hi

[Mofra]

What a great day that was. From memory they only kicked that goal deep into the last qtr as well (kicked by Mark Arceri who I knew fairly well as a regular at the old Newport TAB - good bloke for a Carlton player, which doesn't say much admittedly).
Was a bullshit free kick with 39 seconds to go in the game. Was spewing we couldn't keep them goalless!

[GVGjr]

Apologies stuffed the link - it's such a good image thought it worth posting "]https://twitter.com/ImageAssassin/status/628030706371858432[/URL][/QUOTE]

All fixed now in the original post.

[Twodogs]

Justin Charles, Doug Hawkins and Chris Grant all kicked more goals than Carlton in a game at Whitten Oval in 1991. Might have helped that the Blues only kicked one for the day...


Surprised Twodogs forgot that one

I was on a bender and missed that game. Didn't even know it was on.

One of the regrets of my life.

[Drunken Bum]

Was a bullshit free kick with 39 seconds to go in the game. Was spewing we couldn't keep them goalless!
I thought it was 27 secs to go or did i think that cause was against super and that was his number?

I was on a bender and missed that game. Didn't even know it was on.

One of the regrets of my life.

day after my 21st b'day party, fair to say i wasn't in the greatest shape either, unbelievably good 21st present, then saw my sister's bf and all his other carlscum supporting mates as i was leaving who had been giving it to me about the game all night at the party, oh happy days :)

[Ozza]

Dickson say hi

Best kick of ALL TIME!!!

[Stefcep]

Dickson say hi

i can't argue with Dickson's run of goals, but there's been at least one shank that still managed to go through. Even so, I still think Crameri's hand to boot action and clean kicking of the ball is better.

[Greystache]

i can't argue with Dickson's run of goals, but there's been at least one shank that still managed to go through. Even so, I still think Crameri's hand to boot action and clean kicking of the ball is better.

Crameri's career record is 152 goals at the pretty ordinary conversion rate of 61%. I would say set shot goal kicking is one area he needs to greatly improve. His past 2 weeks of 9.4 have been better than average for him.

[bornadog]

Rogue real estate agent sent to prison after scamming AFL star (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/rogue-real-estate-agent-sent-to-prison-after-scamming-afl-star-20171221-h08shd.html)

Silver-tongued property spruiker Cameron Deal, 46, has been sentenced to six months in prison after pleading guilty to scamming almost $100,000 from Geelong footballer Stewart Crameri in a hoax real estate venture.

[comrade]

Rogue real estate agent sent to prison after scamming AFL star (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/rogue-real-estate-agent-sent-to-prison-after-scamming-afl-star-20171221-h08shd.html)

Geez, the bloke who scammed Crammers is an absolute train wreck.

[bornadog]

Geez, the bloke who scammed Crammers is an absolute train wreck.

What an arsehole, I wonder how many others that low life scammed.

[comrade]

What an arsehole, I wonder how many others that low life scammed.

After doing a little snooping, the scammer - Cameron Deal - was the founder of a property advisory company called Infolio. He is nowhere to be seen on the website anymore but there is a person of interested listed as a director of the company...Jobe Watson.

Website is here (http://www.infolio.com.au/about-us/)

Wonder who made the intro to Crammers?

[GVGjr]

Good detective work Comrade, Crammers has a tendency to follow the leaders and not check things out for himself.

[bornadog]

Good detective work Comrade, Crammers has a tendency to follow the leaders and not check things out for himself.

Why wouldn't you get a solicitor to check he property details etc before handing over a deposit.

[GVGjr]

Why wouldn't you get a solicitor to check he property details etc before handing over a deposit.

Same reason why you wouldn't challenge an injecting regime. My guess is that he follows the leader. If Jobe put him in contact with the guy at the centre of this then he probably naive enough to think that's all the due diligence needed.

[bornadog]

Same reason why you wouldn't challenge an injecting regime. My guess is that he follows the leader. If Jobe put him in contact with the guy at the centre of this then he probably naive enough to think that's all the due diligence needed.

Hopefully lesson learnt

[Twodogs]

After doing a little snooping, the scammer - Cameron Deal - was the founder of a property advisory company called Infolio. He is nowhere to be seen on the website anymore but there is a person of interested listed as a director of the company...Jobe Watson.

Website is here (http://www.infolio.com.au/about-us/)

Wonder who made the intro to Crammers?

My psyche is s screaming at me that I have read an article or seen a report that tells me that he changed his last name to Deal because he loves to make one.


Good detective work Comrade, Crammers has a tendency to follow the leaders and not check things out for himself.

A bit of a sheep.

[LostDoggy]

A rather expensive lesson!!

[SlimPickens]

After doing a little snooping, the scammer - Cameron Deal - was the founder of a property advisory company called Infolio. He is nowhere to be seen on the website anymore but there is a person of interested listed as a director of the company...Jobe Watson.

Website is here (http://www.infolio.com.au/about-us/)

Wonder who made the intro to Crammers?

Jesse Fortune was on Footscrays list for a couple of years also

[Twodogs]

Never trust anyone who offers to spend your money for you. If they were any good at they would have more than enough money of their own to spend and if they were such fantastic fellows then they would be buying you things with their own money.


People get addicted to money the same way people get addicted to anything else (and I mean that 100%. If I understand anything it is addiction and I can see it etched on the face of almost every economist and capitalist I see) and for an addict no amount of money is enough.

We are like cats. Put a plateful of food in front of a cat and they will just keep eating until they die. We just don't have a thing in our heads that says "enough"

[hujsh]

Good detective work Comrade, Crammers has a tendency to follow the leaders and not check things out for himself.

Too bad he didn't follow our leaders and take the deal from ASADA. Might not be on a rookie list.

[jeemak]

Never trust anyone who offers to spend your money for you. If they were any good at they would have more than enough money of their own to spend and if they were such fantastic fellows then they would be buying you things with their own money.


People get addicted to money the same way people get addicted to anything else (and I mean that 100%. If I understand anything it is addiction and I can see it etched on the face of almost every economist and capitalist I see) and for an addict no amount of money is enough.

We are like cats. Put a plateful of food in front of a cat and they will just keep eating until they die. We just don't have a thing in our heads that says "enough"

I think you misunderstand economists definitely, and possibly capitalists. But, what really annoys me is your ripping on cats.

If anything, cats can be trusted - and I'm no cat lover. It's the puppy with free reign over the dry food that I'm most concerned about - and I love puppies.

[Twodogs]

I think you misunderstand economists definitely, and possibly capitalists. But, what really annoys me is your ripping on cats.

If anything, cats can be trusted - and I'm no cat lover. It's the puppy with free reign over the dry food that I'm most concerned about - and I love puppies.



I never disputed a cats fundamentall lovlieness. Beautiful little things they are. Ver attractive little folks. Theyll still die if you leave too much food out.

[bornadog]

I never disputed a cats fundamentall lovlieness. Beautiful little things they are. Ver attractive little folks. Theyll still die if you leave too much food out.

Cats only eat what they need to, dogs are the greedy ones. I have a cat and there is a bowl full of dry food sitting there and she only nibbles every now and then.

[hujsh]

Cats only eat what they need to, dogs are the greedy ones. I have a cat and there is a bowl full of dry food sitting there and she only nibbles every now and then.

My old dog used to have a pile of dry food sitting out that he didn't eat either. My parents have 2 dogs who often leave their breakfast or dinner unfinished.