Crameri

[LostDoggy]

Just got some mail from close to the Crameri camp....he is coming to the dogs.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Fantastic, will be very excited when it's finalised.

[LostDoggy]

Preety reliable source so yep Im excited, we will be very potent up Forward and this will Fastrack Jake.

[bornadog]

Just got some mail from close to the Crameri camp....he is coming to the dogs.

Good news to get an established forward, and great he wants to come to us :eek:, I guess that is the Macca influence.

[The Underdog]

Good news to get an established forward, and great he wants to come to us :eek:, I guess that is the Macca influence.

Or y'know $$$$$$

[Topdog]

Or y'know $$$$$$

Or drugs and wanting out.

But great news anyway!!

[bornadog]

Or y'know $$$$$$


Or drugs and wanting out.

But great news anyway!!

still could have gone to another club, but chose us.

[1eyedog]

Saw him at the club yesterday driving out as I was in, must have signed.

[ledge]

Can't sign until the trade week is open can you ?

[Happy Days]

I don't want him but given that he is now our player (presuming this is all true) most likely to kick bags on the regular he is now my favourite player. Welcome aboard Cramma!

[Remi Moses]

Good news. Now the hard bit, negotiating with Syria (sorry Bombers)

[LostDoggy]

I don't want him but given that he is now our player (presuming this is all true) most likely to kick bags on the regular he is now my favourite player. Welcome aboard Cramma!

Not everyday you snatch the bombers leading goal kicker for the last three years away from them. Just that alone is good enough for me....stuff em.

They are delusional they want pick 4 and JJ.....:D

[Bulldog4life]

Confident he will improve our team if that is the case and looking forward to seeing him don....excuse the pun....the red, white & blue.

[LostDoggy]

I say DFA or SFA they can choose.

[anfo27]

Would be great if Vlad gives the green light to any Essendon players wanting out a free pass & we grab Crameri for nothing. We'll find out soon enough on Monday.

[LostDoggy]

Good news. Now the hard bit, negotiating with Syria (sorry Bombers)

That's a totally unfair and ridiculous statement mate, I seriously expected better from a bloke of your calibre.

Syria have never done anything wrong to the Bulldogs.

[Remi Moses]

Way to harsh on the bombers.
They'll want LeBron James, Christiano Ronaldo, and Lionel Messi

[ReLoad]

Way to harsh on the bombers.
They'll want LeBron James, Christiano Ronaldo, and Lionel Messi

Haven't you seen the new Bombers Elite Training Center?

http://www.tellhimhespele.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/scrooge-mcduck-money-bin.jpg

[Twodogs]

Way to harsh on the bombers.
They'll want LeBron James, Christiano Ronaldo, and Lionel Messi


More like Lance Armstrong, Ben Johnson and Keith Richards.

[F'scary]

Good news. Now the hard bit, negotiating with Syria (sorry Bombers)

:D :D :D Is that because they used chemical weapons?

[KT31]

Not everyday you snatch the bombers leading goal kicker for the last three years away from them. Just that alone is good enough for me....stuff em.

They are delusional they want pick 4 and JJ.....:D

Happy with the way looking, but won't get to excited until he has signed on the dotted line and the club announces he will be in our colours.

[LostDoggy]

Happy with the way looking, but won't get to excited until he has signed on the dotted line and the club announces he will be in our colours.

And we can come to an arrangement with Essendon.

[Dry Rot]

There is, and always was, a bit of a problem with this Crameri trade



THE Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority is preparing a slew of infraction notices against Essendon players and club officials that could result in lifetime bans from all sport.

Essendon coach James Hird, people and development manager Danny Corcoran, former high-performance manager Dean Robinson and sports scientist Stephen Dank, as well as players involved in the injecting scene, are all in ASADA's sights....

ASADA officials are preparing the legal paperwork to issue infraction notices to at least seven AFL players and officials but the final numbers of those who may be implicated may be more than a dozen.

The Australian has learned that the first tranche of infringement notices will be issued at the conclusion of the current AFL season, marking the "first step" in several sanctions that will be sought by ASADA. Players and officials face bans of up to two years for taking the supplements, but it is believed ADADA is looking at issuing some of the infraction notices with trafficking infractions, which could bring about a life ban.

- See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/asada-ready-with-lifetime-sport-bans/story-fnca0u4y-1226722374126#sthash.HqWOb37S.dpuf

[Dry Rot]

FWIW, I've heard tonight that NRL is prepared for the Cronulla team being rubbed out. Word I heard is that ASADA is waiting for the season to end, and the NRL will strip the flag from Cronulla should they win it (unlikely to be premiers).

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Interesting DR.

One would assume our club (and others) will be doing their due diligence as best as possible. You would think that Crameri would have an idea as to whether or not he may be guilty.

Having said that, it could get messy and you'd want some clarification as soon as possible. If it isn't done before the commencement of trade week, it's concerning.

I know these kinds of processes take time but the AFL should be encouraging ASADA to get this done before such trade/draft periods.

[Dry Rot]

Interesting DR.

One would assume our club (and others) will be doing their due diligence as best as possible. You would think that Crameri would have an idea as to whether or not he may be guilty.

Having said that, it could get messy and you'd want some clarification as soon as possible. If it isn't done before the commencement of trade week, it's concerning.

I know these kinds of processes take time but the AFL should be encouraging ASADA to get this done before such trade/draft periods.

The Dons are not helped by also having an NRL team and its players in the gun.

Rumours I've heard suggest that some Cronulla folk may have been much naughtier than the Dons folk, inviting serious sanctions.

If that happens, I dunno that ASADA will look good hitting one code with much heavier sanctions than another. Consistency may not be the Dons' friend here.

[Remi Moses]

Surely the governing body would have some plan in place if a club did trade for one of their players.
It should make the trade invalid!!

[Remi Moses]

Interesting DR.

One would assume our club (and others) will be doing their due diligence as best as possible. You would think that Crameri would have an idea as to whether or not he may be guilty.

Having said that, it could get messy and you'd want some clarification as soon as possible. If it isn't done before the commencement of trade week, it's concerning.

I know these kinds of processes take time but the AFL should be encouraging ASADA to get this done before such trade/draft periods.

They don't know who took what ( with no player records)
I'd be mortified that the club didn't have an inkling to what might transpire.

[LostDoggy]

Has to be in his contract that it's void if banned any longer than six months.

[craigsahibee]

:D :D :D Is that because they used chemical weapons?

Or is it a case of the Weapon used Chemicals?

Allegedly, Your Honour. ;)

[LongWait]

The ASADA actions in the future may or may not involve Crameri. If we are considering trading for him, we will no doubt have conducted our due diligence and will have mitigated our risks.

It sounds like the ASADA actions will be known before trade season concludes.

Most non-Essendon football followers thought that infraction notices would be issued against at least some Essendon players - you didn't have to be clairvoyant to see that coming.

The Football Department staff at our club would have a pretty good idea what is likely to come Essendon and Crameri's way - if they continue to pursue a trade there will be good reasons for doing so.

[bulldogtragic]

At a guess, it would make the AFL more likely to offer FA to Essendon players wouldn't it???

[ledge]

I would think Jobe is in a bit of strife as he admitted he took a substance in question.

[Mofra]

I would think Jobe is in a bit of strife as he admitted he took a substance in question.
No he didn't

He thinks he did, he didn't know. Important difference.

[Scraggers]

I would think Jobe is in a bit of strife as he admitted he took a substance in question.

But will he lose his Brownlow ???? :rolleyes:

[Cyberdoggie]

No he didn't

He thinks he did, he didn't know. Important difference.

They also won't get them on AOD, as that is "off the table". The other substances though are a concern.

Not sure why they are talking lifetime bans for players. Since when does a first time offence athlete get banned for life after testing positive? never.

[Bulldog4life]

They also won't get them on AOD, as that is "off the table". The other substances though are a concern.

Not sure why they are talking lifetime bans for players. Since when does a first time offence athlete get banned for life after testing positive? never.

When they are trafficking?

[Cyberdoggie]

When they are trafficking?

Well that is obviously different but i don't believe any players would be involved in that.

The coaching staff is a different story.


Our interests concern Crameri if we trade for him, and at worst i'm assuming he could get a couple of years penalty.

[Twodogs]

They also won't get them on AOD, as that is "off the table". The other substances though are a concern.

Not sure why they are talking lifetime bans for players. Since when does a first time offence athlete get banned for life after testing positive? never.


When they are trafficking?


They were saying that on KB this morning.

[ledge]

The life time ban would be for the staff and for Jobe to say he believes that's what he took still falls back on him that he wasn't sure what he took,so he is still in strife in not knowing exactly what he took which ASADA says ignorance is no excuse

[Topdog]

Yeah Jobe is in big trouble with ASADA. His wording was important because it meant he couldn't be in trouble with the AFL.

The life time bans being talked about are for the staff, hopefully Hird.

[Murphy'sLore]

Still cannot believe that Hird's job is being held open for him. What an absolute joke. Maybe he needs a life ban just to force him to see that he has actually done something wrong.

[bulldogtragic]

Still cannot believe that Hird's job is being held open for him. What an absolute joke. Maybe he needs a life ban just to force him to see that he has actually done something wrong.
They've put the while club 'on hold' for him... And no person is bigger than he club....

[stefoid]

Given that they are thinking only 7 players will be charged, it must be that those 7 took something specifically illegal. So the only question with regard to Crameri is - did he take it? He would know, and if weve talked to him, so would we.

Personally, I think a mature, big-muscled player like him would be unlikely to have been on illegal muscle-building stuff. More likely to be skinnier, younger types on the chopping block.

Just talkin through my hat :)

[Murphy'sLore]

It's seven 'staff and players' isn't it? You'd think the majority, if not all, of those would be the staff responsible for implementing the program, especially as they've been saying how hard it would be to pin specific usage onto the players due to their shoddy record-keeping.

[Scraggers]

Reports are saying ASADA are ready to go with seven now, with more to follow.

[bulldogtragic]

If we get an Essendon player and they cop a suspension after the fact, that's our fault. If we buy into their saga we must accept the consequences. I'd hate to (wouldnt) stake my AFL professional career on Essendon players being exonerated completely.

Funny the thing about risk. Many don't like the idea of an immature kid in Garlett but will happily accept buying an expensive player who may be banned for years for WADA doping offences.

[KT31]

Given that they are thinking only 7 players will be charged, it must be that those 7 took something specifically illegal. So the only question with regard to Crameri is - did he take it? He would know, and if weve talked to him, so would we.

Personally, I think a mature, big-muscled player like him would be unlikely to have been on illegal muscle-building stuff. More likely to be skinnier, younger types on the chopping block.

Just talkin through my hat :)

Not to sure, he may have an idea but if the players are to be believed they have no idea what they were injected.
I do agree though with his build it is unlikely he was a subject.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

If we get an Essendon player and they cop a suspension after the fact, that's our fault. If we buy into their saga we must accept the consequences. I'd hate to (wouldnt) stake my AFL professional career on Essendon players being exonerated completely.

Funny the thing about risk. Many don't like the idea of an immature kid in Garlett but will happily accept buying an expensive player who may be banned for years for WADA doping offences.

It's only a risk if we assume the club will make a trade for Crameri without taking into account any likely ASADA implications. I think it highly unlikely the club would sign off without due diligence.

[always right]

Hope this doesn't end up a right royal cock-up.

[KT31]

It's only a risk if we assume the club will make a trade for Crameri without taking into account any likely ASADA implications. I think it highly unlikely the club would sign off without due diligence.

The issue could be though we draft Crameri, miss out on another trade or overlook his type in the draft and then have him taken away.
Any compensation we would receive would likely to be the next season.
IMO it is still worth the punt.

[whythelongface]

Hope this doesn't end up a right royal cock-up.

The last thing we want to do is contract a player who is under a cloud from these investigations. Whilst I believe Crameri would be a worthwhile signing (if he did not have the ASADA investigation hanging over his head) I am very sceptical in having any dealings with Essendon until the final ASADA outcome is delivered.

One would hope that the club has undertaken its due diligence in regards to this matter.

[Greystache]

It's only a risk if we assume the club will make a trade for Crameri without taking into account any likely ASADA implications. I think it highly unlikely the club would sign off without due diligence.

If today's reports are to be believed the infraction notices will be issued straight after the grand final, long before any trade deals get done.

[LostDoggy]

If we get an Essendon player and they cop a suspension after the fact, that's our fault. If we buy into their saga we must accept the consequences. I'd hate to (wouldnt) stake my AFL professional career on Essendon players being exonerated completely.

Funny the thing about risk. Many don't like the idea of an immature kid in Garlett but will happily accept buying an expensive player who may be banned for years for WADA doping offences.

They rate punctuality ;)

[Cyberdoggie]

If today's reports are to be believed the infraction notices will be issued straight after the grand final, long before any trade deals get done.

Do you think someone from the AFL might leak the information prior?....:D

[Mofra]

Do you think someone from the AFL might leak the information prior?....:D
TBH I expect there to be plenty of leaks on "slow news days" ;)

There are massive public service cuts to come in the next budget, and departmental/agency heads like having media exposure as some sort of case to approach Ministers to spare them the axe. It's all about building profile and anything that gets ASADA's name in the paper will no doubt be looked upon favourably by ASADA themselves.

I'm fairly certain we will know Crameri's status before the trade perido starts

[Greystache]

Do you think someone from the AFL might leak the information prior?....:D

Nah couldn't see that happening ;)

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

The issue could be though we draft Crameri, miss out on another trade or overlook his type in the draft and then have him taken away.
Any compensation we would receive would likely to be the next season.
IMO it is still worth the punt.

Yes but what I'm getting at is I think it extremely unlikely we ( or any other club for that matter) would sign off on a trade until the club has certainty about any possible ASADA action.

[ledge]

ASADA stuff will be done before the trade period, they are saying the Monday after the grand final.

[bulldogtragic]

ASADA stuff will be done before the trade period, they are saying the Monday after the grand final.
I wonder what will happen to players loyalty if they see their mates/brothers suspended or facing long bans. Will either further galvanise the group or fracture a few.

[stefoid]

Not to sure, he may have an idea but if the players are to be believed they have no idea what they were injected.
I do agree though with his build it is unlikely he was a subject.

Ill bet he absolutely, positively, has not even the inlking of what he was injected with ;) None of them will.

It probably went down like this:

club: were going to inject you with some stuff
player: what is it?
club: oh you know, just stuff.
player: cool, jab away!

[F'scary]

I saw a Dr Peter Larkins article in The rAge a while ago. He had looked into the penalties regulations and the facts of the case as reported and opined that players are most likely to receive a 6mth ban if found guilty.

But that is an entire season, although the start date for a ban could begin in the off season depending on the timing of the verdict.

[ledge]

Well the timing of the verdict is pretty much the end if season going by all reports

[1eyedog]

I saw a Dr Peter Larkins article in The rAge a while ago. He had looked into the penalties regulations and the facts of the case as reported and opined that players are most likely to receive a 6mth ban if found guilty.

But that is an entire season, although the start date for a ban could begin in the off season depending on the timing of the verdict.

So they may miss a full preseason and what the first 4 rounds? If you miss a preseason you're stuffed. That's assuming that they can't train.

[ledge]

So they may miss a full preseason and what the first 4 rounds? If you miss a preseason you're stuffed. That's assuming that they can't train.

Nothing to stop the club giving them a training plan and they go and do it alone, even if they miss the physical training they are still fit and ready to go

[Twodogs]

So they may miss a full preseason and what the first 4 rounds? If you miss a preseason you're stuffed. That's assuming that they can't train.



Most of the mature players would have the fitness base of previous work to fall back on. All those pre-seasons building up their bodies would help. I know it wouldn't be an ideal preparation but they'd get back to match fit a lot quicker than a kid with only a couple of pre-seasons under his belt.

[Reigning Maddogs]

Any ban is in season from what I have read

[Murphy'sLore]

If it's not in season, it's pretty meaningless.

[Mofra]

So they may miss a full preseason and what the first 4 rounds? If you miss a preseason you're stuffed. That's assuming that they can't train.
Bans apply in-season only - from round 1.

[bornadog]

Bans apply in-season only - from round 1.

Otherwise the ban is useless.

[bulldogtragic]

Not many players have come back with 12 months out. I can think of Tim Watson and Plugger who were a shadow of themselves and Stew Dew, who was simply fat. Take 5 minutes of a grand final out and the decision to draft him was not worthy of anything more than the very low pick they used. If we used a top pick and a ban occurred, we'd never get our value.

[Mofra]

Not many players have come back with 12 months out. I can think of Tim Watson and Plugger who were a shadow of themselves and Stew Dew, who was simply fat. Take 5 minutes of a grand final out and the decision to draft him was not worthy of anything more than the very low pick they used. If we used a top pick and a ban occurred, we'd never get our value.
It's a bit different to a retirement though - he'll train while not playing. I don't see it as significantly diffrent to a player coming back from injury - Murph came back from a knee, Morris from a compount break, Vossy had a horror break early in his career and still became a champion, then there's Stringer ;)

[Greystache]

It's a bit different to a retirement though - he'll train while not playing. I don't see it as significantly diffrent to a player coming back from injury - Murph came back from a knee, Morris from a compount break, Vossy had a horror break early in his career and still became a champion, then there's Stringer ;)

Those players also had to cope with the physical limitations associated with those injuries, something that wouldn't be an issue here. A 25 year old who can do everything other than play on a Saturday (or Sunday night in our case :rolleyes:) wouldn't be overly impacted by 12 months out of the game. It might take a few games to get his touch back, but physically he'd be primed.

[bulldogtragic]

4 years
1 to 2 seasons suspended possibility
Risk of quality once returning
$1,800,000

Right or wrong, it's a bloody big call.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

4 years
1 to 2 seasons suspended possibility
Risk of quality once returning
$1,800,000

Right or wrong, it's a bloody big call.

It's only a big call if the trade is made prior to knowing ASADA's intentions.
There is no way our club is going to make a trade without knowing what ASADA are doing.

[Mofra]

It's only a big call if the trade is made prior to knowing ASADA's intentions.
There is no way our club is going to make a trade without knowing what ASADA are doing.
Yep - Media are reporting the week after the Grand Final for infraction notices to be served. We'll know at that point, well before trade week.

[bulldogtragic]

Yep - Media are reporting the week after the Grand Final for infraction notices to be served. We'll know at that point, well before trade week.
Just for shits and giggles, what if ASADA clears him but WADA make media comments saying they will seek infraction notices in court if need be.

Then what?

[LostDoggy]

Just for shits and giggles, what if ASADA clears him but WADA make media comments saying they will seek infraction notices in court if need be.

Then what?

Could “if” till the cows come home.

When I think of Crameri missing a year, I think of Ben Cousins. Sure, he wasn't Cousins of old, but that could've been attributed to his lifestyle catching up with him more than anything else. I do remember him coming back looking incredibly muscled.

[bulldogtragic]

Could “if” till the cows come home.

When I think of Crameri missing a year, I think of Ben Cousins. Sure, he wasn't Cousins of old, but that could've been attributed to his lifestyle catching up with him more than anything else. I do remember him coming back looking incredibly muscled.
Cousins was an elite brownlow winning mid with a point to prove. And he was nothing like the player he was, not close. That example doesn't make me feel better. I am happy to go with the captains pick, but if and it is IF, is there's any risk, I don't see such an upside for taking it (risk/reward).

[Eastdog]

Just got some mail from close to the Crameri camp....he is coming to the dogs.

That's good news. Yeah we desperately need some one up forward who is reliable to get our goals. How do you see Macca now getting Crameri he will structure the forward line.

[w3design]

Question is, if ASADA means to give standard 6 month bans out, will the AFL point out to them that due to the seasonal nature of our competition, 6 months during competition equates to a 12 month ban, rather than a 6 month one.
Will this influence ASADA's thinking on penalties? Or will ASADA and the AFL sit down together and agree to allow the AFL to set the penalties subject to ASADA's ok?

I think there is a lot more 'political' water to flow under the bridge before this mess is sorted out.

[Greystache]

Cousins was an elite brownlow winning mid with a point to prove. And he was nothing like the player he was, not close. That example doesn't make me feel better. I am happy to go with the captains pick, but if and it is IF, is there's any risk, I don't see such an upside for taking it (risk/reward).

Again he was also 30 years old when he came back.

[The Underdog]

Cousins was an elite brownlow winning mid with a point to prove. And he was nothing like the player he was, not close. That example doesn't make me feel better. I am happy to go with the captains pick, but if and it is IF, is there's any risk, I don't see such an upside for taking it (risk/reward).

Cousins was also 30 with 200+ games of AFL football behind him. Crameri is younger & has a heap less AFL wear & tear. I'm not saying we should do it but there's not really an apples for apples comparison anywhere I can think of.

[bulldogtragic]

Again he was also 30 years old when he came back.
True, but I look at the comparison with all the previous players named, comparing them to before and after.

Cousins, Watson, Lockett, Dew etc, at best they were 75% of their former performance.

75% of Crameri's best is not worth the risk, hassle or pick 22.

Let's just hope ADADA and WADA clear him and this is a moot point.

[bulldogtragic]

Cousins was also 30 with 200+ games of AFL football behind him. Crameri is younger & has a heap less AFL wear & tear. I'm not saying we should do it but there's not really an apples for apples comparison anywhere I can think of.
True, I'm struggling to find an apples for apples comparison... Not too many doping suspended 25 year old have returned to play in the AFL :)

[The Underdog]

Let's just hope ADADA and WADA clear him and this is a moot point.

Ha, now we want Essendon players cleared :D

[bulldogtragic]

Ha, now we want Essendon players cleared :D
Only if they want to play for us, otherwise stuff them! :)

[always right]

That's good news. Yeah we desperately need some one up forward who is reliable to get our goals. How do you see Macca now getting Crameri he will structure the forward line.

Imagine a forwardline that looks like this;

Grant, Jones, Crameri
Dahlhaus, Campbell, Stringer

Rotating through....Gia, Dickson, Hrovat, Higgins, Hunter, Stevens

That starting line-up would test most sides matching up with the combination of height and pace. Jones, Crameri and Stringer are all tall, mobile with good hands. Campbell is the monster in the square and Dahlhaus and Grant are the crumbers.

[bulldogtragic]

Would like Patton down there too if I'm allowed to be greedy :)

[bornadog]

Would like Patton down there too if I'm allowed to be greedy :)

the land of the Giants:D

[EasternWest]

Imagine a forwardline that looks like this;

Grant, Jones, Crameri
Dahlhaus, Campbell, Stringer

Rotating through....Gia, Dickson, Hrovat, Higgins, Hunter, Stevens

That starting line-up would test most sides matching up with the combination of height and pace. Jones, Crameri and Stringer are all tall, mobile with good hands. Campbell is the monster in the square and Dahlhaus and Grant are the crumbers.

I'm still in shock that Campbell can actually play forward. Good hands, good kick, plenty of nous and crashes packs.

Honestly, I'd heard so much that he was "Minson's replacement" that I'd already pigeonholed him before I saw him. I really hope his development continues.

[Eastdog]

I'm still in shock that Campbell can actually play forward. Good hands, good kick, plenty of nous and crashes packs.

Honestly, I'd heard so much that he was "Minson's replacement" that I'd already pigeonholed him before I saw him. I really hope his development continues.

Who do you see more upside in Roughead or Campbell.

[EasternWest]

Who do you see more upside in Roughead or Campbell.

I think Roughead is miles further along as far as development goes, but that's only to be expected because he's been playing seniors for longer. I think there's plenty of upside for both of them, but because they're playing different roles I don't know if an actual comparison is fair.

Honestly, I'm very happy with Roughead in our backline, and I'm increasingly pleased with what I'm seeing from Campbell.

What do you think?

[Eastdog]

I think Roughead is miles further along as far as development goes, but that's only to be expected because he's been playing seniors for longer. I think there's plenty of upside for both of them, but because they're playing different roles I don't know if an actual comparison is fair.

Honestly, I'm very happy with Roughead in our backline, and I'm increasingly pleased with what I'm seeing from Campbell.

What do you think?

Like what you said there in your post EasternWest.

[bulldogtragic]

Why don't we offer Motlop 5 years on $450,000.

[azabob]

Why don't we offer Motlop 5 years on $450,000.

Because he's worth more than that :D:D:D

[bulldogtragic]

Because he's worth more than that :D:D:D
Ok. Would you believe 5 years on $600,000?

Or a Boy Scout with rabies?

[azabob]

Ok. Would you believe 5 years on $600,000?

Or a Boy Scout with rabies?

I find that hard to believe.

But yeah - out and out gun.

[F'scary]

I'm still in shock that Campbell can actually play forward. Good hands, good kick, plenty of nous and crashes packs.

Honestly, I'd heard so much that he was "Minson's replacement" that I'd already pigeonholed him before I saw him. I really hope his development continues.

True. The monster forward we want to trade in could already be on our list.

[bulldogtragic]

I find that hard to believe.

But yeah - out and out gun.
Freak!

[boydogs]

Just for shits and giggles, what if ASADA clears him but WADA make media comments saying they will seek infraction notices in court if need be.

Then what?

I can see this happening. ASADA infract on Thymosin and WADA say what about AOD?

[Eastdog]

I think it's very important we go to get forwards but I think we also need to keep an eye on our defence. Morris and Murphy have been great servants but won't be around forever. Our midfield has the potential to be one of the best. Imagine if we were able to secure the Reid brothers.

[bulldogtragic]

I think it's very important we go to get forwards but I think we also need to keep an eye on our defence. Morris and Murphy have been great servants but won't be around forever. Our midfield has the potential to be one of the best. Imagine if we were able to secure the Reid brothers.
The AFL didn't want that to happen.

[Eastdog]

The AFL didn't want that to happen.

It was unlucky their father didn't get to the 100 games with us but that's just the way things go.

[bulldogtragic]

It was unlucky their father didn't get to the 100 games with us but that's just the way things go.
He did play more than John Brown's dad though.

Moot point, I know.

[The Underdog]

It was unlucky their father didn't get to the 100 games with us but that's just the way things go.

It's a shame we didn't select Sam Reid in the draft when we had the chance

[Twodogs]

It was unlucky their father didn't get to the 100 games with us but that's just the way things go.


What's unlucky is they changed the rules after the boys had spent 75-90 % of their ives qualified as bulldog F/S candidates.


He did play more than John Brown's dad though.

Moot point, I know.

Mmmmmm.


It's a shame we didn't select Sam Reid in the draft when we had the chance

Agree strongly.

[bulldogtragic]

Hypothetically we get Jon and Stew. We want a second round pick.

To me Grant or Higgins come to mind.

Gun to your head, who do you trade?

[azabob]

Hypothetically we get Jon and Stew. We want a second round pick.

To me Grant or Higgins come to mind.

Gun to your head, who do you trade?

Tough call - I'd go with Higgins even though he offers a lot off the field.

[EasternWest]

Hypothetically we get Jon and Stew. We want a second round pick.

To me Grant or Higgins come to mind.

Gun to your head, who do you trade?

Higgins. Without doubt.

Easily the most overhyped player on our list. Skillful and smart, but defensively lazy and unwilling to chase hard. Fools gold that holds more trade value than Grant anyway.

I've said it before and I stand by it. If I never saw him in the red, white and blue again I'd be fine with that.

[Eastdog]

Higgins. Without doubt.

Easily the most overhyped player on our list. Skillful and smart, but defensively lazy and unwilling to chase hard. Fools gold that holds more trade value than Grant anyway.

I've said it before and I stand by it. If I never saw him in the red, white and blue again I'd be fine with that.

How will he go next year EW? Could it be make or break for him.

[EasternWest]

How will he go next year EW? Could it be make or break for him.

I dunno mate.

I feel pretty strongly about him. It reads like I've got it in for him but I haven't. I just want our team to better every week, and I don't think we are when he plays.

Rightly or wrongly I can't help but feel Shaun's first priority on field is Shaun, and that doesn't sit well with me.

He's been unlucky with injury, I concede, but aside from a bright start to his career, I haven't seen enough from him on the field that I find as encouraging as others do.

I would happily trade him for Crameri, in whatever manifestation said trade might take. I don't see Higgins as an important piece for us, where Crameri could be.

If he came out next year and proved me wrong I'd be happy about it, don't get me wrong, but I fear we'll just tread water with him as we wait for his "potential" to be reached.

Also, my android phone has it in for me tonight. Apologies for any spelling mistakes.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I dunno mate.

I feel pretty strongly about him. It reads like I've got it in for him but I haven't. I just want our team to better every week, and I don't think we are when he plays.

Rightly or wrongly I can't help but feel Shaun's first priority on field is Shaun, and that doesn't sit well with me.

He's been unlucky with injury, I concede, but aside from a bright start to his career, I haven't seen enough from him on the field that I find as encouraging as others do.

I would happily trade him for Crameri, in whatever manifestation said trade might take. I don't see Higgins as an important piece for us, where Crameri could be.

If he came out next year and proved me wrong I'd be happy about it, don't get me wrong, but I fear we'll just tread water with him as we wait for his "potential" to be reached.

Also, my android phone has it in for me tonight. Apologies for any spelling mistakes.

Agreed.

Potentially he's some nice icing on the cake, but after watching the two Preliminary Finals, it's hard to see Higgins having the defensive impact required. Fremantle's pressure was incredible tonight, and it's always been Higgins' weakness, even when he was traveling well.

He's certainly got some class and is very skilled, but I don't think he's a required player.

[Eastdog]

I dunno mate.

I feel pretty strongly about him. It reads like I've got it in for him but I haven't. I just want our team to better every week, and I don't think we are when he plays.

Rightly or wrongly I can't help but feel Shaun's first priority on field is Shaun, and that doesn't sit well with me.

He's been unlucky with injury, I concede, but aside from a bright start to his career, I haven't seen enough from him on the field that I find as encouraging as others do.

I would happily trade him for Crameri, in whatever manifestation said trade might take. I don't see Higgins as an important piece for us, where Crameri could be.

If he came out next year and proved me wrong I'd be happy about it, don't get me wrong, but I fear we'll just tread water with him as we wait for his "potential" to be reached.

Also, my android phone has it in for me tonight. Apologies for any spelling mistakes.

No worries mate that was a very good post. How about Grant who recently signed up with us. He did very well when we came in late season for us but he really needs to keep it up next year. While Crameri is quite good I think we still need one more forward.

[SonofScray]

Higgins. Without doubt.

Easily the most overhyped player on our list. Skillful and smart, but defensively lazy and unwilling to chase hard. Fools gold that holds more trade value than Grant anyway.

I've said it before and I stand by it. If I never saw him in the red, white and blue again I'd be fine with that.

Totally agree. Though a few games this season started to change my view, mostly though I don't think he will give us much in the current set up. I thought we'd delist Gia and in that scenario Higgins is a ready made replacement. Because Gia is still on the list, I'd try Higgo out on the market to see what we could get.

[Twodogs]

Totally agree. Though a few games this season started to change my view, mostly though I don't think he will give us much in the current set up. I thought we'd delist Gia and in that scenario Higgins is a ready made replacement. Because Gia is still on the list, I'd try Higgo out on the market to see what we could get.



Maybe Gia got another year because the club wanted some cover for Higgins?

[LostDoggy]

He's a great unknown for next season is Shaun. Supremely talented, he could be a 35-40 goaler next season if he stayed on the park, but geez - he'd suit GWS as a roaming small forward to compliment their current (and Franklin/Boyd) talls.

Shaun and pick four / Patton and pick nine.

[LostDoggy]

He's a great unknown for next season is Shaun. Supremely talented, he could be a 35-40 goaler next season if he stayed on the park, but geez - he'd suit GWS as a roaming small forward to compliment their current (and Franklin/Boyd) talls.

Shaun and pick four / Patton and pick nine.

Can see the logic ie one 'crock' for another..but overvaluing Higgins still I reckon.

Assuming Patton's medical is ok, Pick 4 seems ok. Depends on the market we may get some change or GWS may.

Both Bombers (maybe due to infractions and window) and GWS (due to AFL pressure to get competitive) want ready made players. But is Higgins 'ready made'? At present all you could say is that he is 'readily injured'. Nearly as unlucky as Williams.

Agree on Higgins, his chasing and defensive pressure seems below average. His pace isn't great, and I don't recall him being a hard ball winner. And frankly his skills have declined if anything since his debut year. I have always believed he is grossly overhyped with commentators often calling him 'silky'. If we can cash in on this and remove a constantly injured player from our list for a good deal then that is awesome.

Just can't see Bombers doing Crameri for Higgins in a straight swap - although Higgins' 'upside' would be greater than Crameri, his 'risk' is far greater too. Guess we will see.

[LostDoggy]

He's a great unknown for next season is Shaun. Supremely talented, he could be a 35-40 goaler next season if he stayed on the park, but geez - he'd suit GWS as a roaming small forward to compliment their current (and Franklin/Boyd) talls.

Shaun and pick four / Patton and pick nine.

Good trade. I'd take it.

[GVGjr]

He's a great unknown for next season is Shaun. Supremely talented, he could be a 35-40 goaler next season if he stayed on the park, but geez - he'd suit GWS as a roaming small forward to compliment their current (and Franklin/Boyd) talls.

Shaun and pick four / Patton and pick nine.

I can't see GWS giving up a pick 1 and a pick 9 for a pick 4 and Higgins. In that instance Higgins is rated as close to a top 10 pick which is way overs.

At best it would be Patton and 21 for pick 4 and Higgins.


Good trade. I'd take it.
You're only looking at that from a Bulldogs perspective.

[LostDoggy]

Pick 1 ? Giving it up for Tom Boyd I assume you mean?

Higgins was pick 11. 100 gamer and 25 with a bit of class. Exactly what they need. They get pick 4 back. We get a lump of KPF who's played five minutes of football and have pick 9 to mitigate some risk.

Pick 1 has nothing to do with this deal. The suggestion that it's heavily weighted in our favour is wrong imo as you stated to BAS. I think most on here are smart enough to look at both sides.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Interesting Stevo on game day says Crameri is now 50-50 and has cooled off from our offer a bit

[azabob]

I can't see GWS giving up a pick 1 and a pick 9 for a pick 4 and Higgins. In that instance Higgins is rated as close to a top 10 pick which is way overs.

At best it would be Patton and 21 for pick 4 and Higgins.


You're only looking at that from a Bulldogs perspective.


Pick 1 ? Giving it up for Tom Boyd I assume you mean?

Higgins was pick 11. 100 gamer and 25 with a bit of class. Exactly what they need. They get pick 4 back. We get a lump of KPF who's played five minutes of football and have pick 9 to mitigate some risk.

Pick 1 has nothing to do with this deal. The suggestion that it's heavily weighted in our favour is wrong imo as you stated to BAS. I think most on here are smart enough to look at both sides.

I can only assume GVGjr missed that you didn't include pick one in your scenario.

I actually think it is a fairly balanced trade. One of the few balanced one's that have been put forward.

GWS get a ready made player (albeit injury prone) another top 5 draft pick which they can then on trade for more experience player (s). We get a highly rated (albeit injury prone) young KF plus most importantly we get back into the draft - which is vital as we are still rebuilding - we must not forget this.

[Go_Dogs]

Pick 1 ? Giving it up for Tom Boyd I assume you mean?

Pick 1 has nothing to do with this deal. The suggestion that it's heavily weighted in our favour is wrong imo as you stated to BAS. I think most on here are smart enough to look at both sides.

Pstton was a pick 1.

[bulldogtragic]

Patton & 19 for Higgins & 4. Plus any unused 3rd or 4th round picks as a sweetener.

Deal.

[azabob]

Pstton was a pick 1.

Ah, now I see where GVGjr was coming from.

Apologies GVGjr - and he is right it is very bulldog favoured.

My bad :o

[Mofra]

I can't see GWS giving up a pick 1 and a pick 9 for a pick 4 and Higgins. In that instance Higgins is rated as close to a top 10 pick which is way overs.

At best it would be Patton and 21 for pick 4 and Higgins.
I agree, a 5 pick downgrade for a genuine Gorilla forward is ludicrous. Higgins' currency must be low considering his injury is similar to that which ended Egan's career - and Egan didn't have a littany of injury-plagued seasons beforehand.

Would anyone here accept Griffen and Pick 4 for pick 1? Heck no.
Some are anti-Gumbleton because he's "too injury prone" yet he's played almost every game this year at either AFL/VFL level.

[Remi Moses]

I agree, a 5 pick downgrade for a genuine Gorilla forward is ludicrous. Higgins' currency must be low considering his injury is similar to that which ended Egan's career - and Egan didn't have a littany of injury-plagued seasons beforehand.

Would anyone here accept Griffen and Pick 4 for pick 1? Heck no.
Some are anti-Gumbleton because he's "too injury prone" yet he's played almost every game this year at either AFL/VFL level.

He might have played seniors and mostly reserves and has showed he isn't good enough at the higher level.

[F'scary]

I agree, a 5 pick downgrade for a genuine Gorilla forward is ludicrous. Higgins' currency must be low considering his injury is similar to that which ended Egan's career - and Egan didn't have a littany of injury-plagued seasons beforehand.

Would anyone here accept Griffen and Pick 4 for pick 1? Heck no.
Some are anti-Gumbleton because he's "too injury prone" yet he's played almost every game this year at either AFL/VFL level.


He might have played seniors and mostly reserves and has showed he isn't good enough at the higher level.

And Patton is almost completely unproven at senior level and has had an ACL. I'd offer them Higgins, Wood, Williams & pick 22.

[Scorlibo]

What is wrong with everyone?

There is nothing I hate more than 'supporters' getting pissed off at guys like Brian Lake and Nathan Brown leaving, then looking to do deals to get rid of players who don't want to leave the club (and in the case of Higgins, someone who is a very well respected club person).

Good player, good guy, good leader - he stays.

[jeemak]

What is wrong with everyone?

There is nothing I hate more than 'supporters' getting pissed off at guys like Brian Lake and Nathan Brown leaving, then looking to do deals to get rid of players who don't want to leave the club (and in the case of Higgins, someone who is a very well respected club person).

Good player, good guy, good leader - he stays.

But but but......he has a deficiency! He doesn't chase as hard as other players, you know........

Higgins suffers from what Gia suffered from as a younger player, and that's unrealistic expectations from some sections of the supporter base. Certain players are allowed to have many areas of weakness in their games, seemingly some players aren't allowed to have one.

He'll always be a target to be shipped out for some supporters.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

But but but......he has a deficiency! He doesn't chase as hard as other players, you know........

Higgins suffers from what Gia suffered from as a younger player, and that's unrealistic expectations from some sections of the supporter base. Certain players are allowed to have many areas of weakness in their games, seemingly some players aren't allowed to have one.

He'll always be a target to be shipped out for some supporters.

I don't think Higgins is a scapegoat at all, at least not on this site. I think it's discrediting the quality of the posters we have to say otherwise.

The question marks hovering over Higgins' game are certainly valid.

[jeemak]

I don't think Higgins is a scapegoat at all, at least not on this site. I think it's discrediting the quality of the posters we have to say otherwise.

The question marks hovering over Higgins' game are certainly valid.

They are of course valid, though he just seems to be judged more harshly because of them than other players are as a result of theirs.

If you think the expectations on Higgins in terms of output are reasonable from all on this site, then fair enough. Over the last three or four years I think I've read enough WOOF posts to form my own opinion on that.

[Remi Moses]

And Patton is almost completely unproven at senior level and has had an ACL. I'd offer them Higgins, Wood, Williams & pick 22.

Gumby failed a medical last season , and looks like a super rules player below his knees.
Plenty of footballers have had ACL's and had long successful careers as well.
The only reason I see Patton being unloaded is a dearth of tall forwards and a need for experience in their line up.

[Remi Moses]

They are of course valid, though he just seems to be judged more harshly because of them than other players are as a result of theirs.

If you think the expectations on Higgins in terms of output are reasonable from all on this site, then fair enough. Over the last three or four years I think I've read enough WOOF posts to form my own opinion on that.

I think most would agree that Shaun's output hasn't been anywhere near the potential we saw early in his career. Mainly injuries have curtailed his career and haven't really given him a decent run at it.

[1eyedog]

Why the heck do we assume that every player has to have high or the same level of intensity / defensive capabilities? Higgins brings many other skills to the table that many other players in our team can't.

[LostDoggy]

Once picked, the number the player was taken at has little relation to their worth. The supposed downgrade of the Patton / Higgins suggestion (taken at pick one) has no relation to his value two years later.

What would Dalhaus be worth, pick-wise, on the open market to us, hypothetically then?

[F'scary]

Gumby failed a medical last season , and looks like a super rules player below his knees.
Plenty of footballers have had ACL's and had long successful careers as well.
The only reason I see Patton being unloaded is a dearth of tall forwards and a need for experience in their line up.

Would you go a straight swap Patton for our pick 4, Remi? I just don't know what we should do but am enjoying reading others thoughts. What seems to be universally agreed is that we need a bit more in our forward line.

[F'scary]

Once picked, the number the player was taken at has little relation to their worth. The supposed downgrade of the Patton deal (taken at pick one) has no relation to hs value two years later.

What would Dalhaus be worth, pick-wise, on the open market to us, hypothetically?
then?

about pick 11 (seeing that the trend seems to be that most clubs won't trade their top 10 pick if they have got one). But I wouldn't trade him for anything, even the number 1, after the season he's just had. Proven quantity vs speculation.

[Mofra]

Higgins suffers from what Gia suffered from as a younger player, and that's unrealistic expectations from some sections of the supporter base. Certain players are allowed to have many areas of weakness in their games, seemingly some players aren't allowed to have one.
Crap.

Higgins' main issue is getting on the paddock - Gia has been durable over the journey.
There will always be a minority who play the scapegoat card - Gia copped it early, Eagle copped it - but to suggest anyone who thinks a player may not have a long term issue at the club due to injury is somehow scapegoating Shaun in the same manner is way off the mark.

[GVGjr]

.

If you think the expectations on Higgins in terms of output are reasonable from all on this site, then fair enough. Over the last three or four years I think I've read enough WOOF posts to form my own opinion on that.

I agree that Higgins gets a lot of negative attention, certainly more than he deserves.

His injuries have stopped most of us from seeing how good he could be.

[Remi Moses]

Would you go a straight swap Patton for our pick 4, Remi? I just don't know what we should do but am enjoying reading others thoughts. What seems to be universally agreed is that we need a bit more in our forward line.

I would

[Remi Moses]

Why the heck do we assume that every player has to have high or the same level of intensity / defensive capabilities? Higgins brings many other skills to the table that many other players in our team can't.

The way the games played you need to have a defensive side of almost manic proportions.
He does bring other skills to the table, but you need a defensive side.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The way the games played you need to have a defensive side of almost manic proportions.
He does bring other skills to the table, but you need a defensive side.

Yep and this has always been a huge weakness of his, even before his injuries.

[EasternWest]

What is wrong with everyone?

There is nothing I hate more than 'supporters' getting pissed off at guys like Brian Lake and Nathan Brown leaving, then looking to do deals to get rid of players who don't want to leave the club (and in the case of Higgins, someone who is a very well respected club person).

Good player, good guy, good leader - he stays.

If you're referring to me, then I challenge you to check my post history to see anywhere I have questioned the decision of Brian Lake to leave the club. I was disappointed, but I understand the rationale behind it from both parties.

I was angry at Brown, and I concede that. Maybe it was the way he did it, maybe it was because I always felt he was a bit of a douchebag, but for some reason it stuck in my craw. I'll wear the criticism for that.

I've made my stance on Higgins clear enough. But my feelings aside, I'm concerned with making my club better, and to be honest, I don't see that he does that. He's a good player, but he's not overly quick and he doesn't chase hard enough.

However, on an open market, I think he is a guy that other clubs will see as offering some trade value. So putting those things together, That's why I consider him tradeable.

He could be a good guy (I've no idea), good player (he is, but not worthy of the esteem many here seem to hold him in IMO) and good leader (though we'll have to agree to disagree on that), but if he offers value to a trade that makes us better, then I would seriously consider it. And I don't limit these thoughts to him. Most players are tradeable, maybe all, if the price is right.


But but but......he has a deficiency! He doesn't chase as hard as other players, you know........

Higgins suffers from what Gia suffered from as a younger player, and that's unrealistic expectations from some sections of the supporter base. Certain players are allowed to have many areas of weakness in their games, seemingly some players aren't allowed to have one.

He'll always be a target to be shipped out for some supporters.

Again, I can only offer my perspective on this, but I never, ever felt that Gia didn't work hard enough. Probably my criticism of Gia when he was younger was that I felt he seemed to miss a lot of goals I thought he should've kicked. Which I think is a fair criticism when it's true, and he has worked hard at this to become a pretty damn reliable goal kicker.

Talent or not, injury or not, I've always felt like Higgins doesn't chase hard enough. I refute totally the notion that "not chasing hard enough" is a weakness in his game. Inability to kick on both feet is a weakness. Being a ruckman and not being able to take any kind of contested mark is a weakness. Not chasing hard enough? That's an option. Unless he's working to 100% of his capacity, then any player can improve in this area through will and desire.

Every year we hear that Higgins is "flying" and "having his best preseason ever", and yet the problem still remains.

I don't argue that he trains hard enough. He might well be flying. But dammit, it's so frustrating to see this guy touted as a leader not doing the little things as well as the flashy things he can do.

Maybe we haven't seen the best of him through injury etc. Maybe I'm being too harsh on him. But he seems to be held in pretty high regard by plenty, so I think it's fair that higher expectations be placed on him.

Noone would be happier than me if he made me eat my words. I'd love to see this guy be a great player for us. But I've got to be honest when I say I don't think it's likely to happen. I just see a good player, but that's all, and the league is full of those.

If he appeals to another club, and if a trade with him in it improves our side, then I say we pull the trigger.

[jeemak]

Crap.

Higgins' main issue is getting on the paddock - Gia has been durable over the journey.
There will always be a minority who play the scapegoat card - Gia copped it early, Eagle copped it - but to suggest anyone who thinks a player may not have a long term issue at the club due to injury is somehow scapegoating Shaun in the same manner is way off the mark.

Not sure if you've understood where I'm coming from.

Agreed Higgins main issue is getting on the paddock, and this site's contributors have a much better track record of acknowledging that than our broader supporter base and those who post on other sites.

Aside from injuries though, the major knock on him is his defensive work and his inability to chase hard out of defence. Looking through the stats, it's clear he tackles though from watching on match day it's visible he either doesn't have the tank or the mindset to chase hard after a first or second effort.

This has also been a knock on Gia, and Eagle copped it for his hardness. It didn't seem to matter what these players did well (as it doesn't with Shaun). I am glad however, that in his final years supporters have realised how hard Gia tries and the value he brings to the team irrespective of some defficiencies that have always been present in his game.

[jeemak]

Again, I can only offer my perspective on this, but I never, ever felt that Gia didn't work hard enough. Probably my criticism of Gia when he was younger was that I felt he seemed to miss a lot of goals I thought he should've kicked. Which I think is a fair criticism when it's true, and he has worked hard at this to become a pretty damn reliable goal kicker.

Talent or not, injury or not, I've always felt like Higgins doesn't chase hard enough. I refute totally the notion that "not chasing hard enough" is a weakness in his game. Inability to kick on both feet is a weakness. Being a ruckman and not being able to take any kind of contested mark is a weakness. Not chasing hard enough? That's an option. Unless he's working to 100% of his capacity, then any player can improve in this area through will and desire.

Every year we hear that Higgins is "flying" and "having his best preseason ever", and yet the problem still remains.

I don't argue that he trains hard enough. He might well be flying. But dammit, it's so frustrating to see this guy touted as a leader not doing the little things as well as the flashy things he can do.

Maybe we haven't seen the best of him through injury etc. Maybe I'm being too harsh on him. But he seems to be held in pretty high regard by plenty, so I think it's fair that higher expectations be placed on him.

Noone would be happier than me if he made me eat my words. I'd love to see this guy be a great player for us. But I've got to be honest when I say I don't think it's likely to happen. I just see a good player, but that's all, and the league is full of those.

If he appeals to another club, and if a trade with him in it improves our side, then I say we pull the trigger.

So beyond not chasing hard enough, which other areas require work from Shaun?

Whether it be physical or mental, is not chasing something that can or can't we worked on?

Do all other attributes become secondary to chasing, for a medium sized forward/midfielder?

[strebla]

Not sure if you've understood where I'm coming from.

Agreed Higgins main issue is getting on the paddock, and this site's contributors have a much better track record of acknowledging that than our broader supporter base and those who post on other sites.

Aside from injuries though, the major knock on him is his defensive work and his inability to chase hard out of defence. Looking through the stats, it's clear he tackles though from watching on match day it's visible he either doesn't have the tank or the mindset to chase hard after a first or second effort.

This has also been a knock on Gia, and Eagle copped it for his hardness. It didn't seem to matter what these players did well (as it doesn't with Shaun). I am glad however, that in his final years supporters have realised how hard Gia tries and the value he brings to the team irrespective of some defficiencies that have always been present in his game.
I was a gia knocker and for that I put my hand up. What I think posters on here are saying is "if" there is a good offer for Higgins it must be looked at and that I agree with.we have Stringer and Hunter that can play his role along with Grant so it would be remiss of us to hold on to him if he had better opportunities at another club.

[jeemak]

I was a gia knocker and for that I put my hand up. What I think posters on here are saying is "if" there is a good offer for Higgins it must be looked at and that I agree with.we have Stringer and Hunter that can play his role along with Grant so it would be remiss of us to hold on to him if he had better opportunities at another club.

That's fair enough.

I suppose we just need to understand that it's unlikely any player we receive as a swap for Higgins will come without issues within their games that need improving and may not have the leadership qualities Higgins reportedly has.

Draft picks might turn out, but with his injury history and current injury issue we're not likely to get much beyond a second rounder for him which is a risk.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

mumblings around are that Crameri will now stay

[always right]

Real slap in the face for the dogs if true. Everything was in our favour.

[strebla]

That's fair enough.

I suppose we just need to understand that it's unlikely any player we receive as a swap for Higgins will come without issues within their games that need improving and may not have the leadership qualities Higgins reportedly has.

Draft picks might turn out, but with his injury history and current injury issue we're not likely to get much beyond a second rounder for him which is a risk.

I would do it for a pick under 30 or a swap of Bulldog type requirement but nothing else.

[The Underdog]

Real slap in the face for the dogs if true. Everything was in our favour.

I think of it as opportunity but only because I prefer Patton , Docherty and cap space to Crameri. I also would have been ok with him but won't be devastated if we miss out.

[Happy Days]

If Crameri stays then this is the 3rd time in 3 years that we've been saved from ourselves in overpaying, monetarily or otherwise, for average/bad players.

[LostDoggy]

If Crameri stays then this is the 3rd time in 3 years that we've been saved from ourselves in overpaying, monetarily or otherwise, for average/bad players.

Not fussed either if this falls through.

[Twodogs]

Yeah. If he comes that's great, if he stays that's great.

Not overly fussed.

[Remi Moses]

I think of it as opportunity but only because I prefer Patton , Docherty and cap space to Crameri. I also would have been ok with him but won't be devastated if we miss out.

Gotta agree. Not going to engage in wrist slashing if we miss out on Crameri.

[always right]

More concerned that we still can't land a player even though;
- He has a strong relationship with the coach
- We are apparently paying over the odds
- His current club has treated its players with contempt
- His current club still doesn't have half its football department in place

We clearly still have a lot of work to do to make our club one that players are keen to come to.

[chef]

Happy to keep taking the kids in the draft.

[comrade]

More concerned that we still can't land a player even though;
- He has a strong relationship with the coach
- We are apparently paying over the odds
- His current club has treated its players with contempt
- His current club still doesn't have half its football department in place

We clearly still have a lot of work to do to make our club one that players are keen to come to.

The fact that it has taken so long for him to make a decision is proof that the perception is changing. If it was 12 months ago, Crameri would have signed with Essendon on the same day as Bellchambers.

[The Underdog]

More concerned that we still can't land a player even though;
- He has a strong relationship with the coach
- We are apparently paying over the odds
- His current club has treated its players with contempt
- His current club still doesn't have half its football department in place

We clearly still have a lot of work to do to make our club one that players are keen to come to.

Maybe he just has Stockholm Syndrome.

[KT31]

mumblings around are that Crameri will now stay

Would love to have him but its his loss if he doesn't come over.

[bulldogtragic]

I think of it as opportunity but only because I prefer Patton , Docherty and cap space to Crameri. I also would have been ok with him but won't be devastated if we miss out.
Yep. Bate and Dawes.

[always right]

My point wasn't that missing out on Crameri is the end of the earth. I would simply be disappointed if he rejects our offer because it appears that our club may not be an attractive proposition for other clubs' players.

[Dry Rot]

I think of it as opportunity but only because I prefer Patton , Docherty and cap space to Crameri. I also would have been ok with him but won't be devastated if we miss out.

Agreed. And I'm not even 100% on Patton.

[EasternWest]

So beyond not chasing hard enough, which other areas require work from Shaun?

Whether it be physical or mental, is not chasing something that can or can't we worked on?

Do all other attributes become secondary to chasing, for a medium sized forward/midfielder?

Of course it can be worked on. The question is why, after a whole heap of "best preseasons ever" is it something he still doesn't do? If he's had such good preseasons, it can't be a fitness issue.

I have stated enough times that he is a good player. A good player. As a medium/forward he's hardly a rare commodity, so why are so many so keen on him when he's a dime a dozen player that doesn't have enough of a defensive mindset?

Do all other attributes become secondary? Yes no maybe. I guess my view is, would I rather Clay Smith, who is a medium paced medium size guy that has shown some nous around the goals and chases and tackles like a madman, or would I rather Higgins, who is a medium paced, medium size guy that is pretty silky but lacks the defensive intensity of Smith. I'd take Smith.

Anyway, I know I'm banging on about it so I'll stop threadjacking. We might just have to agree that our opinions differ (which is fine of course) on Shaun. I'll just finish on this, repeating an earlier point: I would seriously consider a fair trade for Higgins, but I'll also be overjoyed to eat my words if he proves me wrong and makes our team better.

[Mofra]

I would seriously consider a fair trade for Higgins, but I'll also be overjoyed to eat my words if he proves me wrong and makes our team better.
I also would seriously consider it - and it has nothing to do with any perceptions about chasing or not.
He simply can't get on the paddock for us, and we have to plan to play without him. Once that becomes the case, we have to seriously consider whether it is worth having someone on the list, regardless of how much of a good bloke he is around the club.

He will no doubt benefit from a change in environment anyway - a fresh start to try and get his career going again. He may not be worth much, but it may be in the interests of both parties if he was tried elsewhere.

[Mofra]

My point wasn't that missing out on Crameri is the end of the earth. I would simply be disappointed if he rejects our offer because it appears that our club may not be an attractive proposition for other clubs' players.
To me Crameri represents a type we're chasing - Thorp & Kerstan also appear to be mid-size, lead up forwards that we're linked to. Clearly B-Mac wants one to fulfil the 2014 gameplan.

I see Crameri as the best option, but not the only one.

[Cyberdoggie]

To me Crameri represents a type we're chasing - Thorp & Kerstan also appear to be mid-size, lead up forwards that we're linked to. Clearly B-Mac wants one to fulfil the 2014 gameplan.

I see Crameri as the best option, but not the only one.

New article on Thorp on the AFL website.

Pickering is his manager and is certainly talking him up.

Ex-Hawk likely to win second chance (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-09-23/thorps-second-chance)


Isn't this week the D-Day for Crameri making up his mind?
I thought he was having final talks with Essendon, should here more on this in the next few days I would think.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'd be disappointed if Crameri elected to stay at Essendon, but having said that, it perhaps give us an opportunity to go harder for Patton and Docherty, which would still be a fantastic coup.

[Bulldog4life]

I'd be disappointed if Crameri elected to stay at Essendon, but having said that, it perhaps give us an opportunity to go harder for Patton and Docherty, which would still be a fantastic coup.

Yes I would be very happy if we landed two of the said 3 players and even reasonably happy if we got one of them. Wouldn't care which 2.

[bulldogtragic]

Take it with a grain of salt, but twitter chatter is that we are not expecting Crameri to accept.

[GVGjr]

mumblings around are that Crameri will now stay


Real slap in the face for the dogs if true. Everything was in our favour.

I wouldn't be too concerned if we did get a slap in the face. If his heart is with the Dons after the way they conducted themselves this year then we aren't the place for him.

[bulldogtragic]

Cal Twomey reporting Crameri had a "positive" meeting with Essendon today.

[GVGjr]

More concerned that we still can't land a player even though;
- He has a strong relationship with the coach
- We are apparently paying over the odds
- His current club has treated its players with contempt
- His current club still doesn't have half its football department in place

We clearly still have a lot of work to do to make our club one that players are keen to come to.

Some people will never leave a place regardless of how shitty it is. At the moment all his mates are still there so I get that.

We actually should be proud of putting together a superior offer probably the very best off we could and if he can't see that then so be it.

[Hotdog60]

I'd be keen on Thorp, looks like he's settled down and would be a cheap pickup.

[comrade]

Crameri staying could be a blessing.

We can now throw the sink at Patton and still keep our second pick, or focus purely on bringing quality kids in via the draft.

I also like the idea of Thorp who could play a medium type role (forward or back) but at a significantly cheaper price.

[Pickenitup]

Im Glad Crameri looks set to stay at essendon as I don't think He is worth the money and there could still be issues For BombersPlayers, I think we should do everything in Our power to bring Patton to the kennel.

[Eastdog]

Im Glad Crameri looks set to stay at essendon as I don't think He is worth the money and there could still be issues For BombersPlayers, I think we should do everything in Our power to bring Patton to the kennel.

Who would we trade Patton for? Should we still have an eye on Tom Boyd. I heard he played pretty well in the TAC Cup Grand Final yesterday for Eastern Ranges.

[azabob]

Crameri staying could be a blessing.

We can now throw the sink at Patton and still keep our second pick, or focus purely on bringing quality kids in via the draft.

.

It's not the end of the world as you say.

Would have been great to get him.

But we must not lose focus how important draft picks are, and how vital they become in 5 years down the track if we pick and develop the right kids.

[azabob]

Who would be trade Patton for? Should we still have an eye on Tom Boyd. I heard he played pretty well in the TAC Cup Grand Final yesterday for Eastern Ranges.

I think what you will find Eastdog is that GWS are looking to trade Patton (if true) because they are going to select Boyd themselves with pick one in the national draft.

[bulldogtragic]

Im Glad Crameri looks set to stay at essendon as I don't think He is worth the money and there could still be issues For BombersPlayers, I think we should do everything in Our power to bring Patton to the kennel.
I think Patton and Docherty if we can pull it off is better balanced than Crameri and Patton.

[Eastdog]

I think what you will find Eastdog is that GWS are looking to trade Patton (if true) because they are going to select Boyd themselves with pick one in the national draft.

Thanks for clarifying that azabob. Would you say we need two forwards.

[Remi Moses]

I think Patton and Docherty if we can pull it off is better balanced than Crameri and Patton.

Is Docherty a small defender?

[azabob]

Thanks for clarifying that azabob. Would you say we need two forwards.

I think we need skilful, quick running players off half back and through the midfield. Then we should look to bring a key forward in like a Crameri or a Patton.

[bulldogtragic]

Is Docherty a small defender?
1 Sam Docherty
Height 184 cm
DOB 17-10-1993
Weight 84 kg

Debut -
Games
2013 13Career 13
Goals
2013 1Career 1
2013 Dream Team Points
Total 653Avg 50

PLAYER BIOSTATSAWARDS
AT A GLANCE
Junior Clubs: Phillip Island
Clubs: Brisbane Lions
Debut: -
Recruited from: Gippsland Power (VIC)
Brownlow Votes: -

INTRODUCTION
Sam Docherty is a rebounding defender who reads the play extremely well and uses the ball efficiently, especially by foot. Largely recognised for his torpedo-like right boot, he was a late inclusion into the Victorian Country team for the National U18 Championships, but went on to win best-on-ground honours against Western Australia.

BACKGROUND
• From the relatively untapped AFL recruiting area of Phillip Island in Victoria, Sam Docherty started playing local senior football as a 15 year-old.

• His 2010 pre-season was hampered after he strained the quadratus lumberum muscle in his back, and as a result he missed selection in Gippsland Power's TAC Cup squad as an underage player.

• He went on to represent the Power in 2011, and quickly became a star playing across half-back. He averaged more than 22 disposals per game (at 71.8% efficiency), and ranked second in the entire competition in mark from opposition kicks and rebound 50s.

• His style of play was likened somewhat to Collingwood's Heath Shaw, Carlton's Chris Yarran and even the Lions' own Jed Adcock.

• It therefore came as no surprise that he was selected in the backline of the 2011 TAC Cup Team of the Year. He also received the Gippsland Power's Most Disciplined Player and Trainer's Award.

• Despite being selected in Victoria Country's initial squad, Docherty missed selection in the opening games of the 2011 AFL National Championships. But he earned a late call-up in time for Victoria Country's match against Western Australia, and seized the opportunity with a best-on-ground performance.

• A late-season hip injury forced him to miss the final matches of the TAC Cup season, and meant he could not participate in the majority of fitness tests at the 2011 AFL Draft Combine at Etihad Stadium.

• Yet Sam's supreme skills had him at the forefront of every AFL recruiters' mind, and he was ultimately snapped up by the Lions with their second selection (Pick No.12 overall) at the 2011 AFL National Draft.



Brisbane website.

[bulldogsman]

STEWART Crameri met with Essendon on Monday as he weighs up where he will play next year.

The meeting is understood have gone positively, with the half-forward expected to decide by the end of this week if he will remain with the Bombers.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-09-23/crameri-don-meet-over-deal

[Bulldog Joe]

Some people will never leave a place regardless of how shitty it is. At the moment all his mates are still there so I get that.

We actually should be proud of putting together a superior offer probably the very best off we could and if he can't see that then so be it.

We should also be pleased that we have really put pressure on Essendon. If Crameri does stay they will have been forced to pay him more and this limits what they can do with other contract offers.

[Topdog]

Surprised how many people are glad he is staying. We had 7 pages of pretty happy people that he was coming yesterday.

I for 1 will be disappointed.

[LostDoggy]

I find enough to be disappointed about without getting overly emotional about a couldabeen situation.

[Remi Moses]

Surprised how many people are glad he is staying. We had 7 pages of pretty happy people that he was coming yesterday.

I for 1 will be disappointed.

Disappointed, but not heartbroken.
I want us to have a crack at Patton

[The Underdog]

I find enough to be disappointed about without getting overly emotional about a couldabeen situation.

Yeah I don't think Crameri is a guy any of the supporters covet. Sure he's a nice piece & clearly being targeted for a role, but the cost in $ and draft pick is high and saving that mitigates any disappointment somewhat. Plus there's still options out there.

[strebla]

Surprised how many people are glad he is staying. We had 7 pages of pretty happy people that he was coming yesterday.

I for 1 will be disappointed.

He is a rook not a queen nice to keep but you can play without them and win.

[1eyedog]

If Crameri does not want to come then I don't want him. The last thing we need is Jade Rawlings MkII.

[Mofra]

I will still be a little disappointed, I do think we need a hard-working HF to take pressure off Jones playing the lead-up role, and give Jones a chance to spend more gametime closer to goal.

If we get no-one, then I'll be more disappointed. If we manage to get one outside running type (Docherty would be perfect) I'd still say we've done enough during trade period.

[G-Mo77]

Didn't see this news. I wouldn't be disappointed if he chose the Bombres and wouldn't be upset if we signed him. I was never comfortable with the 4th year so it could be a blessing in disguise.

It's also a bonus that we don't have to deal with that scum!

[KT31]

Will be more disappointed if we miss on Patton than if we miss on Crameri.
Still a bit miffed as to why he would not want to break from the scrutiny and allegations but I do understand he has to make a huge decision to move clubs.
One thing Essendon could have over us in the dealings with Crameri is the offer of support if they have an inkling he will be targeted by future investigations.

[always right]

TBH...I think something that is never stated in discussion around players moving clubs is the prospect of not playing in front of big crowds in big games. We really are at a disadvantage when we can't pull more than 25k to a game. This year was depressing seeing so few attend matches even in the last 6 weeks when we turned our season around. I would so love to get back to the days when we used to play in front of big(ger) crowds.

[Eastdog]

TBH...I think something that is never stated in discussion around players moving clubs is the prospect of not playing in front of big crowds in big games. We really are at a disadvantage when we can't pull more than 25k to a game. This year was depressing seeing so few attend matches even in the last 6 weeks when we turned our season around. I would so love to get back to the days when we used to play in front of big(ger) crowds.

We had a great end to season 2013 but I agree AR that our crowds were not great. There are always a few games I can't attend for certain reasons but as I am now a member I try my best to attend all home games and away games when we are playing here. It doesn't help we got lots of 4:40pm Sunday matches which I hope we don't get much of in 2014.

[always right]

Agree that scheduling is important but it doesn't completely explain the low attendances. Imagine taking a prospective recruit along to one of our games and telling them that they too could be playing in front of 18,000 people if they come to us. Meanwhile their current club points to the MCG on Anzac Day. Stark comparison and a factor no-one seems to mention when discussing whether a player should grab the opportunity to come to our club.

[ledge]

It's more than patton is getting at GWS

[Eastdog]

Agree that scheduling is important but it doesn't completely explain the low attendances. Imagine taking a prospective recruit along to one of our games and telling them that they too could be playing in front of 18,000 people if they come to us. Meanwhile their current club points to the MCG on Anzac Day. Stark comparison and a factor no-one seems to mention when discussing whether a player should grab the opportunity to come to our club.

I wish we would be able to play more at the MCG. Its a magnificent ground and is ultimately where all the finals will be played. If we could one day get to 50,000 members then who knows we could make a case to play more often there.

[bulldogtragic]

I wish we would be able to play more at the MCG. Its a magnificent ground and is ultimately where all the finals will be played. If we could one day get to 50,000 members then who knows we could make a case to play more often there.
50,000 is about 50% more members than we had at our peak 08-10.

I love this club, but I don't see 50,000 members anytime soon.

[Eastdog]

50,000 is about 50% more members than we had at our peak 08-10.

I love this club, but I don't see 50,000 members anytime soon.

Im probably dreaming a bit there. How about target 40,000.

[bulldogtragic]

Im probably dreaming a bit there. How about target 40,000.
40,000 would involve a premiership I would think. 3 prelims didn't get us all that close to 40,000 even.

From my understanding of historical movements in membership fluctuations, it's not attracting new members, its retaining new-ish members. Unless the club can think of things it's never thought of before, I'd say a premiership success would be the only thing to rust on some more members.

But then again it did bugger all for North who had Carey and two flags.

It's for another thread, but Tassie is the only way I can see a sharp increase in membership. If that's not wanted then we have expect that our following can't or won't pony up like other clubs.

[Scorlibo]

If you're referring to me, then I challenge you to check my post history to see anywhere I have questioned the decision of Brian Lake to leave the club. I was disappointed, but I understand the rationale behind it from both parties.

I was angry at Brown, and I concede that. Maybe it was the way he did it, maybe it was because I always felt he was a bit of a douchebag, but for some reason it stuck in my craw. I'll wear the criticism for that.

I've made my stance on Higgins clear enough. But my feelings aside, I'm concerned with making my club better, and to be honest, I don't see that he does that. He's a good player, but he's not overly quick and he doesn't chase hard enough.

However, on an open market, I think he is a guy that other clubs will see as offering some trade value. So putting those things together, That's why I consider him tradeable.

He could be a good guy (I've no idea), good player (he is, but not worthy of the esteem many here seem to hold him in IMO) and good leader (though we'll have to agree to disagree on that), but if he offers value to a trade that makes us better, then I would seriously consider it. And I don't limit these thoughts to him. Most players are tradeable, maybe all, if the price is right.


If that's your concern then why would you ever refer to players as commodities. Surely you must realise how detrimental it is to the team ethos.

[Guido]

If it was free agency, I would't mind paying slight overs to convince him to come across, but couple it with a likely loss of Pick 22 and I really haven't liked this move at all.

This club's resources are so finite, and it's path to a premiership so difficult - it can't outspend the bigger clubs, it can't out sell or out-market the bigger clubs, it has a number of competitive disadvantages, but there is NOTHING stopping it being smarter than other clubs. However to do this, it's salary cap and list management has to be more frugal and more efficient - IMO it really is the ONLY pathway to a premiership for the dogs. Yet if anything, it often finds itself on the other end, blowing cash and draft picks like a drunken sailor.

Offering almost $1mil to Djerkurra, $1.3mil to Sherman, $2mil to Dawes and $1.8m to Cameri is not efficient, is not intelligent and in fact hurts the club by limiting opportunities to chase REAL solutions down the track.

And Pick 22? F*** me dead. In the last 5 drafts, that range of pick (+/- 3 selections) has been used on Ward, Hrovat, Isaac Smith, Bastinac, Carlisle, Scott Selwood, Redden, Zaharakis. I've included guys than went a couple of picks earlier because with a bit of luck and depending on how the cards fall, and each club's respective strategies and competencies, it's not inconceivable that on the day you could even have a Ward equivalent slipping from a 19 to 22. You might/will be in a position to get that slider at pick 22 (like Hrovat), but you have no friggen chance at pick 40.

And you're getting them at 17/18, not 25/26 with less than a handful of good years left (Dawes, Bate, Crameri). Would we be able to get pick 22 for a 27 year old Crameri in 2 years? Not a chance in hell. So we know for a fact that we're overpaying, and that he will never be worth as much as he is now - we know we're buying at the top. Is what he offers going forward really worth the price?

In three years you could pick Crameri up trade-cost free as a free agent, so you're effectively swapping pick 22 for the next 3 years of a non A-graders career. Unless you're very confident that it's going to prove the decisive difference between a premiership and no premiership, IMO it's stupid. Just incredibly stupid.

There will be 200 gamers available at that pick - are we good enough to select them is another matter, but history guarantees that they will be there - it's not heresay, it's fact - top 100 in the AFL standard 17/18 year olds who can contribute to the club's premiership tilts for the next 12 years will available at Pick 22. $1.8mil is 3 quarters of the way to an AA standard player contract.

Is 4 years of a non-elite player really, really the best way we can use those resources?

[Happy Days]

If it was free agency, I would't mind paying slight overs to convince him to come across, but couple it with a likely loss of Pick 22 and I really haven't liked this move at all.

This club's resources are so finite, and it's path to a premiership so difficult - it can't outspend the bigger clubs, it can't out sell or out-market the bigger clubs, it has a number of competitive disadvantages, but there is NOTHING stopping it being smarter than other clubs. However to do this, it's salary cap and list management has to be more frugal and more efficient - IMO it really is the ONLY pathway to a premiership for the dogs. Yet if anything, it often finds itself on the other end, blowing cash and draft picks like a drunken sailor.

Offering $1mil to Djerkurra, $1.3mil to Sherman, $2mil to Dawes and $1.8m to Cameri is not efficient, is not intelligent and in fact hurts the club by limiting opportunities to chase REAL solutions down the track.

And Pick 22? F*** me dead. In the last 5 drafts, that range of pick (+/- 3 selections) has been used on Ward, Hrovat, Isaac Smith, Bastinac, Carlisle, Scott Selwood, Redden, Zaharakis. I've included guys than went a couple of picks earlier because with a bit of luck and depending on how the cards fall, and each club's respective strategies and competencies, it's not inconceivable that on the day you could even have a Ward equivalent slipping from a 19 to 22. You might/will be in a position to get that slider at pick 22 (like Hrovat), but you have no friggen chance at pick 40.

And you're getting them at 17/18, not 25/26 with less than a handful of good years left (Dawes, Bate, Crameri). Would we be able to get pick 22 for a 27 year old Crameri in 2 years? Not a chance in hell. So we know for a fact that we're overpaying, and that he will never be worth as much as he is now - we know we're buying at the top. Is what he offers going forward really worth the price?

In three years you could pick Crameri up trade-cost free as a free agent, so you're effectively swapping pick 22 for the next 3 years of a non A-graders career. Unless you're very confident that it's going to prove the decisive difference between a premiership and no premiership, IMO it's stupid. Just incredibly stupid.

There will be 200 gamers available at that pick - are we good enough to select them is another matter, but history guarantees that they will be there - it's not heresay, it's fact - top 100 in the AFL standard 17/18 year olds who can contribute to the club's premiership tilts for the next 12 years will available at Pick 22. $1.8mil is 3 quarters of the way to an AA standard player contract.

Is 4 years of a non-elite player really, really the best way we can use those resources?

*drops mic*

[Mofra]

And Pick 22? F*** me dead. In the last 5 drafts, that range of pick (+/- 3 selections) has been used on Ward, Hrovat, Isaac Smith, Bastinac, Carlisle, Scott Selwood, Redden, Zaharakis. I've included guys than went a couple of picks earlier because with a bit of luck and depending on how the cards fall, and each club's respective strategies and competencies, it's not inconceivable that on the day you could even have a Ward equivalent slipping from a 19 to 22.
The flip side to draft revisionism is who else those picks could be, +/- 3 from pick 22:
Jamie Cripps, Patrick Kernizis, Josh Bootsma, Murray Newman, Seb Ross, Garrick Weedon, Koby Stevens, James Strauss, Tom Swift, Tony Notte, Adam Maric, Tayte Pears, Clayton Hinkley, etc etc

Throw in 2-3 years of development, it is a big investment. The club have identified an area of need and an established player who gives us a guaranteed 100+ games of AFL standard football, the likes of which we wont/didn't get from Christian Howard, Cam Faulkner, Sam Power, a host of picks we've taken in the teens.

Regardless of outcome, we've forced Essendon's hand in increasing their offer to Crameri - that can only be a good thing.

[Ghost Dog]

If it was free agency, I would't mind paying slight overs to convince him to come across, but couple it with a likely loss of Pick 22 and I really haven't liked this move at all.

This club's resources are so finite, and it's path to a premiership so difficult - it can't outspend the bigger clubs, it can't out sell or out-market the bigger clubs, it has a number of competitive disadvantages, but there is NOTHING stopping it being smarter than other clubs. However to do this, it's salary cap and list management has to be more frugal and more efficient - IMO it really is the ONLY pathway to a premiership for the dogs. Yet if anything, it often finds itself on the other end, blowing cash and draft picks like a drunken sailor.

Offering almost $1mil to Djerkurra, $1.3mil to Sherman, $2mil to Dawes and $1.8m to Cameri is not efficient, is not intelligent and in fact hurts the club by limiting opportunities to chase REAL solutions down the track.

And Pick 22? F*** me dead. In the last 5 drafts, that range of pick (+/- 3 selections) has been used on Ward, Hrovat, Isaac Smith, Bastinac, Carlisle, Scott Selwood, Redden, Zaharakis. I've included guys than went a couple of picks earlier because with a bit of luck and depending on how the cards fall, and each club's respective strategies and competencies, it's not inconceivable that on the day you could even have a Ward equivalent slipping from a 19 to 22. You might/will be in a position to get that slider at pick 22 (like Hrovat), but you have no friggen chance at pick 40.

And you're getting them at 17/18, not 25/26 with less than a handful of good years left (Dawes, Bate, Crameri). Would we be able to get pick 22 for a 27 year old Crameri in 2 years? Not a chance in hell. So we know for a fact that we're overpaying, and that he will never be worth as much as he is now - we know we're buying at the top. Is what he offers going forward really worth the price?

In three years you could pick Crameri up trade-cost free as a free agent, so you're effectively swapping pick 22 for the next 3 years of a non A-graders career. Unless you're very confident that it's going to prove the decisive difference between a premiership and no premiership, IMO it's stupid. Just incredibly stupid.

There will be 200 gamers available at that pick - are we good enough to select them is another matter, but history guarantees that they will be there - it's not heresay, it's fact - top 100 in the AFL standard 17/18 year olds who can contribute to the club's premiership tilts for the next 12 years will available at Pick 22. $1.8mil is 3 quarters of the way to an AA standard player contract.

Is 4 years of a non-elite player really, really the best way we can use those resources?


Ding Ding. Post of the day. Thrilled he decided to stay put.

[chef]

Sad thing is if we miss out of Crameri we'll probably turn our attention to Gumbleton.

[Scorlibo]

If it was free agency, I would't mind paying slight overs to convince him to come across, but couple it with a likely loss of Pick 22 and I really haven't liked this move at all.

This club's resources are so finite, and it's path to a premiership so difficult - it can't outspend the bigger clubs, it can't out sell or out-market the bigger clubs, it has a number of competitive disadvantages, but there is NOTHING stopping it being smarter than other clubs. However to do this, it's salary cap and list management has to be more frugal and more efficient - IMO it really is the ONLY pathway to a premiership for the dogs. Yet if anything, it often finds itself on the other end, blowing cash and draft picks like a drunken sailor.

Offering almost $1mil to Djerkurra, $1.3mil to Sherman, $2mil to Dawes and $1.8m to Cameri is not efficient, is not intelligent and in fact hurts the club by limiting opportunities to chase REAL solutions down the track.

And Pick 22? F*** me dead. In the last 5 drafts, that range of pick (+/- 3 selections) has been used on Ward, Hrovat, Isaac Smith, Bastinac, Carlisle, Scott Selwood, Redden, Zaharakis. I've included guys than went a couple of picks earlier because with a bit of luck and depending on how the cards fall, and each club's respective strategies and competencies, it's not inconceivable that on the day you could even have a Ward equivalent slipping from a 19 to 22. You might/will be in a position to get that slider at pick 22 (like Hrovat), but you have no friggen chance at pick 40.

And you're getting them at 17/18, not 25/26 with less than a handful of good years left (Dawes, Bate, Crameri). Would we be able to get pick 22 for a 27 year old Crameri in 2 years? Not a chance in hell. So we know for a fact that we're overpaying, and that he will never be worth as much as he is now - we know we're buying at the top. Is what he offers going forward really worth the price?

In three years you could pick Crameri up trade-cost free as a free agent, so you're effectively swapping pick 22 for the next 3 years of a non A-graders career. Unless you're very confident that it's going to prove the decisive difference between a premiership and no premiership, IMO it's stupid. Just incredibly stupid.

There will be 200 gamers available at that pick - are we good enough to select them is another matter, but history guarantees that they will be there - it's not heresay, it's fact - top 100 in the AFL standard 17/18 year olds who can contribute to the club's premiership tilts for the next 12 years will available at Pick 22. $1.8mil is 3 quarters of the way to an AA standard player contract.

Is 4 years of a non-elite player really, really the best way we can use those resources?

How ridiculous to pick out the handful of players who have been success stories around pick 22 and conveniently ignore the other 70-ish % of players around that age who have had no impact. Draft picks outside of the top 20 are enormously overrated. See here (http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=11853).

Best possible scenario we would get out of a pick 22 would be a kid who takes until they are 21/22 to be a genuine best 22 player and then plays for the next 10 years. That would be fantastic. What we get with Crameri is someone who is that best 22 player, who we haven't had to develop (which is probably quite important given that we already have so many kids who we have an obligation to take care of - they can't all get the right tutelage if there's that many of them), and who despite already having gone through 3 years of good footy still has another 5-7 years left. I'll take that most days of the week. The only 'day of the week' I wouldn't take that is the day when we're fielding a side that is too old or a list which doesn't have enough young talent. That's not the case - as it stands we'll be left with a massive black hole in experience and leadership when Gia, Boydy, Morris and Murph are gone. I feel strongly that getting a guy like Crameri to the Dogs and KEEPING guys around the same age such as Higgins is very important.

The money is not an issue, it has to be spent on the players and so far as I can see it's either we get Crameri or pay all of our other players over their market value.

[bulldogtragic]

Sad thing is if we miss out of Crameri we'll probably turn our attention to Gumbleton.
PSD or nothing. I'm happy with nothing.

All this shows me is we're not afraid to make crazy offers. So if we want a better option, I.e. Patton, then we need to offer more.

[Scorlibo]

We get Patton and we'll have to forfeit pick 4 - no deal, he's not worth it.

[bulldogtragic]

We get Patton and we'll have to forfeit pick 4 - no deal, he's not worth it.
Any particular reason for your opinion?

[ledge]

Apparently just reported on SEN Crameri wants out of the bombers

[Scorlibo]

Any particular reason for your opinion?

Has shown nothing to date, coming off a really bad knee injury. His greatest strength is supposed to be that 'he's big', and almost seems the premise upon which he was drafted at number 1.

Not saying he won't be a good player but I would be really apprehensive about toying with our prized pick in pursuit of Patton.

[GVGjr]

If Crameri does not want to come then I don't want him. The last thing we need is Jade Rawlings MkII.

I think you are being harsh on Rawlings. He did OK for us and in the end he couldn't play the type of role Eade asked of him.

FWIW, I think Crameri is still very tempted to come to us. We should know tomorrow if not sooner ;)

[bulldogtragic]

Has shown nothing to date, coming off a really bad knee injury. His greatest strength is supposed to be that 'he's big', and almost seems the premise upon which he was drafted at number 1.

Not saying he won't be a good player but I would be really apprehensive about toying with our prized pick in pursuit of Patton.
Fair enough. But as a multi-year comparison, Patton showed far more than Stringer, and Stringer is still recovering from his pre-draft leg break 18 months later. Stringer went 5. So Pattons not worth 4?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Mark Stevens has tweeted that Crameri will make a decision in the next 24-48 hours, and despite the positive meeting with Essendon yesterday, beleives the Dogs are clear favourites. Also says it's not just about money, but the uncertainty re: Essendon.

[ledge]

I've heard Ryder wants out too. Would we consider him ?

[Bulldog Revolution]

I hear the guys who are saying keep the pick, its a high price to pay, and at 22 we should be able to find a good player, however, we will never build a premiership contender if we only build via the draft - we have an emerging midfield and we have to find some more options forward of the centre. If we draft a kid, like Spencer White or Tim OBrien for instance last year we might wait years and they may or may not make it.

I think Crameri will offer us a great option for our forward line and help make the whole thing work. He wont kick 80 but he could kick 40 and be a very valuable addition, leads well, tackles, and is very quick.

I hope he makes the good decision to come to us. I dont blame him for taking his time and really deciding what he wants to do.

We give him 4 years and we are paying for his prime senior footy years - I say go for it. Its a calculated risk, but thats life.

[chef]

Jon Ralph ‏@RalphyHeraldSun

2m
Dogs really confident on Stu Crameri. Hasn't officially told them he's coming but might tonight or tomorrow. Can't pass up 4 yrs, $1.8m

[bulldogtragic]

Jon Ralph calling Crameri to dogs on twitter. To which Essendon fans tweet about how shit he is anyways.

[Doggy]

Sandy Roberts on 7 news just reported Crameri will make an announcement in the next 24 hrs and he is likely to be at the Bulldogs next year.

[bulldogtragic]

AFLPA must keep demanding free agency for Essendon players. For the integrity of the competition and rights of players.

[Bulldog4life]

Jon Ralph calling Crameri to dogs on twitter. To which Essendon fans tweet about how shit he is anyways.

Typical.:rolleyes:

[Remi Moses]

Successful teams don't solely use the draft.
Drafting is the key component, but you do have to add components as well.
As stated previously not going to engage in wrist slashing if he doesn't come.
He'd be valuable for us and to pry him out you do have to pay overs.

[Remi Moses]

Successful teams don't solely use the draft.
Drafting is the key component, but you do have to add components as well.
As stated previously not going to engage in wrist slashing if he doesn't come.
He'd be valuable for us and to pry him out you do have to pay overs.

[GVGjr]

I have two messages today saying it's as good as a done deal.

[GVGjr]

I've heard Ryder wants out too. Would we consider him ?

Doubtful, he doesn't fit the right age bracket

[ledge]

I have two messages today saying it's as good as a done deal.

Yes but from who ?

[ledge]

I have two messages today saying it's as good as a done deal.


Doubtful, he doesn't fit the right age bracket

I think he is very good footballer if used in the right way, I don't think
He has reached his full potential at the bombers.
Would he fit maccas plans I don't know.

[chef]

I have two messages today saying it's as good as a done deal.

Good enough for me.

Welcome to the Dogs Crameri:).

[anfo27]

Happy to have Crameri but wonder what it will take to satisfy that scumbag club.

[The Underdog]

Happy to have Crameri but wonder what it will take to satisfy that scumbag club.

I would have thought our 2nd rd pick was a fair price

[jeemak]

Successful teams don't solely use the draft.
Drafting is the key component, but you do have to add components as well.
As stated previously not going to engage in wrist slashing if he doesn't come.
He'd be valuable for us and to pry him out you do have to pay overs.


Successful teams don't solely use the draft.
Drafting is the key component, but you do have to add components as well.
As stated previously not going to engage in wrist slashing if he doesn't come.
He'd be valuable for us and to pry him out you do have to pay overs.

Successful posters don't need to post twice to get a point across.

Get your act together Remi :)

[anfo27]

I would have thought our 2nd rd pick was a fair price

So would i but already have a Essendon mate saying that won't be enough & a player swap involving JJ would be more to their liking. I told him JJ won't be going anywhere thats for damn sure!! These arrogant maggots give me pip!

[jeemak]

Happy to have Crameri but wonder what it will take to satisfy that scumbag club.


I would have thought our 2nd rd pick was a fair price

I think by the time trade period officially starts EFC might be willing to be a bit nicer at the trade table.

The AFL hasn't dared take any of the spotlight away from the finals series, and wouldn't announce any FA conditions for EFC players until next week.

[Eastdog]

Won't get to carried away just yet but good news if confirmed.

[LostDoggy]

http://www.fiddlestix.net.au/img/p/1300-2423.jpg

Don't want to jump the gun, but how sweet would it be :D

[GVGjr]

I would have thought our 2nd rd pick was a fair price

It might be a fair price but do we have to pay it?

[The Underdog]

It might be a fair price but do we have to pay it?

I don't know, I'd love to get him for less, but am also aware of the hypocrisy of criticising Essendon for being traditionally horrendous to trade with while then being unwilling to trade fairly ourselves.

[GVGjr]

I don't know, I'd love to get him for less, but am also aware of the hypocrisy of criticising Essendon for being traditionally horrendous to trade with while then being unwilling to trade fairly ourselves.

I want us to go hard at them because of the way they have conducted themselves for years.

[Remi Moses]

Successful posters don't need to post twice to get a point across.

Get your act together Remi :)

Bloody I phone !
That's my excuse for technology incompetence

[KT31]

Jon Ralph calling Crameri to dogs on twitter. To which Essendon fans tweet about how shit he is anyways.

Just like Lake and Brown were.:D

[Greystache]

I'm happy if we secure Crameri. I've seen plenty of him and we have a role for him to play. He presents well, works hard, and has a physical presence on the field. Basically he's a better version of Williams playing forward.

A 30+ goal kicker will be a welcome addition.

[Eastdog]

If we get Crameri which is getting a bit more likely which other forward out there should we go for.

[bulldogtragic]

2013:

HF: Dahl Jones Grant
F: Gia Campbell Stringer

Emerg: Higgins, Williams, Hunter, Hrovat

Who loses their spot for Crameri??

[anfo27]

A mate sent me messgae telling me that Emma Quayle is saying pick 22 & a sweetener. I bloody hope not!!unless the sweetener is Cordy or Howard.