The fork in the road

[The bulldog tragician]

The "why can't it be us" thread got me thinking. Hawthorn met us in the 61 grand final. Their first, our second. They won it.

We've never been back there on GF day.. They've won 11 flags as well as featuring in at least 4 unsuccessful GFs that I can think of.

A serious question for Woofers...what have we lacked in those 52 years that has meant a club like hawthorn has had such an amazingly different trajectory since that day? Of course there must be many factors but what stands out the most?

[Maddog37]

Money.

[LostDoggy]

John Kennedy (culture)
Luck...
Leigh Matthews, Alan Jeans, Jason Dunstall, Dermott Brereton and David Parkin
A rich demographic

[Eastdog]

Money.

What were North Melbourne's finances like in the 1990s when they were quite successful. They're a club that has struggled financially very much like us.

[LostDoggy]

Mental toughness

[azabob]

What were North Melbourne's finances like in the 1990s when they were quite successful. They're a club that has struggled financially very much like us.

Terrible, but they had Wayne Carey.

[craigsahibee]

Money.

It was only 17 years ago that they almost merged with Melbourne (how I would have hated that organisation)

Their success through the 80's was partly the result of a spending war with Carlton. The quality players they recruited came at a price which nearly sent them to the wall in the 90's. Every 2nd kid was running around schoolyards in Hawthorn jumpers back in the 80's. These kids are now working and are able to contribute to their now healthy financial position.

I guess it all comes down to having sustained success. To be able to win a GF EVERY 5 years on average over the last 50 means that their dans aren't starved of success and the fringe members are likely to hang in there for longer.

Since the aborted merger they have made sound financial and football decisions which certainly helps.

[Eastdog]

Terrible, but they had Wayne Carey.

We had Chris Grant who was a star.

[F'scary]

Sliding Doors.

In a parallel universe, we won in '61 and 11 times after that.

Hawthorn was beaten by her cheating husband, deserted and left working in a diner with her children being looked after by strangers.

[azabob]

We had Chris Grant who was a star.

Wayne Carey is one of the best players to play the game.

[Eastdog]

Wayne Carey is one of the best players to play the game.

He was one of the greatest.

[The bulldog tragician]

I wonder if we won in 61, could we have become a juggernaut in the west? I'm not sure if the Hawks were all that wealthy then. Moving out to Waverley certainly helped them capitalize on all that growth out there, but maybe if we'd been successful all the kids in growth areas like Werribee and Melton would have become fans.

It really is gobsmacking to think how our paths diverged since that day.

[Eastdog]

I wonder if we won in 61, could we have become a juggernaut in the west? I'm not sure if the Hawks were all that wealthy then. Moving out to Waverley certainly helped them capitalize on all that growth out there, but maybe if we'd been successful all the kids in growth areas like Werribee and Melton would have become fans.

It really is gobsmacking to think how our paths diverged since that day.

Quite possibly. A team like Essendon who are based in the north west have support not only in their heartland but all over because of their success. If we were similar we would have support not just in our heartland but all over the city. It would be interesting to see what our support is like in all the local councils in Melbourne.

[mighty_west]

- A win at all costs culture
- Not having to sell their players just to stay alive
- Genuine quality key forwards (Dunstall, Dermie, Buddy, Roughy)

[LostDoggy]

97 was a massive fork in the road. I wonder where we would be now if we just hung on in that prelim.

[LostDoggy]

A serious question for Woofers...what have we lacked in those 52 years that has meant a club like hawthorn has had such an amazingly different trajectory since that day? Of course there must be many factors but what stands out the most?

One word.

Luck.

With that on our side, we win '61, '85, '97, '98, '09, '10 maybe '92 as well.
That's 8 premierships to our name and a pretty successful past few decades.

[Eastdog]

One word.

Luck.

With that on our side, we win '61, '85, '97, '98, '09, '10 maybe '92 as well.
That's 8 premierships to our name and a pretty successful past few decades.

'08 maybe? We were in that prelim against Geelong but we kicked ourselves out of it.

[The bulldog tragician]

One word.

Luck.

With that on our side, we win '61, '85, '97, '98, '09, '10 maybe '92 as well.
That's 8 premierships to our name and a pretty successful past few decades.

I'm not sure..if you're consistently unlucky is something deeper at play?

There are rational reasons we lost all those. Not quite good enough, a super team ahead of us, the crappiest umpiring of all time in one particular year ( mcinerney, you know who I'm talking about), lack of belief, lack of an out and out match winner.. But when you put all those missed opportunities together, maybe something's got right into the club's DNA.

97 was definitely the year that could have been turned around. I think we would have figured in another couple if we hadn't stumbled there.

[LostDoggy]

A good administration. It gets overlooked a LOT, we all like to focus on the players but let's face it, until the fightback the Footscray Football Club was not the most professional organisation in the land.

[LostDoggy]

I'm not sure..if you're consistently unlucky is something deeper at play?

There are rational reasons we lost all those. Not quite good enough, a super team ahead of us, the crappiest umpiring of all time in one particular year ( mcinerney, you know who I'm talking about), lack of belief, lack of an out and out match winner.. But when you put all those missed opportunities together, maybe something's got right into the club's DNA.

97 was definitely the year that could have been turned around. I think we would have figured in another couple if we hadn't stumbled there.

Can't argue with you really. But the original question, what stood out the most? To me you can have a great team, great coach, great game plan and a great organization, but without luck you still don't get there.
'85 Matthews getting a bath and being benched, only to come on an win the game. Yes he's an all time great but with some luck we keep him out and win.
'97 what ever could go wrong, did go wrong in that last qtr.
'98 easily better team than Adelaide but what the hell happened there?
More recently the flu that hit late in the season taking Cooney out for a game then his hamstring goes in the next game back, Morris goes down too, Aker goes back to being Aker, that was a cluster that year.
Other teams too, in the drawn GF StK v Coll, if the ball bounced right instead of left Milne would have iced it for the Saints.
I really rate luck as a big factor to winning flags.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Hawthorn's quality leadership both on and off the field has separated it from the other AFL Clubs. Its strong administration, quality coaching and recruitment has ensured the club's ongoing success. The establishment of Waverley as its home base, decision to use the MCG as its home ground, the successful move to base itself with home games in Tasmania, which has added 10,000 additional members plus an extra $3 million in sponsorship plus a strong emphasis on membership resulting in a sound financial position with 60,000 plus members makes it the envy of other clubs. Hawthorn has stolen a march on other clubs with its clever targeting of players from other League clubs that includes Burgoyne Gunston Hale Gibson and our own Brian Lake. Probably it's greatest success has been the appointment of Alastair Clarkson as coach. The Hawthorn team is superbly coached, highlighted by its uncanny foot and hand skills and placing teamwork clearly ahead of individual pursuits.

[bulldogtragic]

I think the Tassie move was key. Arguably, they were as close to extinction as we were. Half their club was in favour of merging and another AFL club wanted to merge with them. Despite some fans decreeing they would not support their team selling games to Tassie, they did it. They've generated 15,000 extra Tassie members, plus bigger gate returns for the matches and generated tens of millions. Then they reinvested it in their footy department, good recruiters, good skills coaches and plenty of top line assistants. This was not possible without the cash from the Tassie move.

So it's interesting now the Tassie deal and benefits that built this era of success for the Hawks could flow to a new AFL club, many supporters of this club don't want to even look at Tassie. Maybe it's the attitude of the Hawks club and supporters. They did whatever it took for a premiership.

[LostDoggy]

I think the Tassie move was key. Arguably, they were as close to extinction as we were. Half their club was in favour of merging and another AFL club wanted to merge with them. Despite some fans decreeing they would not support their team selling games to Tassie, they did it. They've generated 15,000 extra Tassie members, plus bigger gate returns for the matches and generated tens of millions. Then they reinvested it in their footy department, good recruiters, good skills coaches and plenty of top line assistants. This was not possible without the cash from the Tassie move.

So it's interesting now the Tassie deal and benefits that built this era of success for the Hawks could flow to a new AFL club, many supporters of this club don't want to even look at Tassie. Maybe it's the attitude of the Hawks club and supporters. They did whatever it took for a premiership.

Most supporters wouldn't mind 3-4 tassie games like hawthorn, but it was suggested that we'd be looking at 8 games a year to win a tassie deal, which is just too many games being taken away from Victorian members

[Eastdog]

Most supporters wouldn't mind 3-4 tassie games like hawthorn, but it was suggested that we'd be looking at 8 games a year to win a tassie deal, which is just too many games being taken away from Victorian members

8 games in Tassie is far too many games. If only we could somehow get a better stadium deal at Etihad but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. I would really like us to play a bit more at the MCG next season as 1 game there this season is just not enough but I'm not sure if that's going to happen either. Will at least get one Friday night game next season as we didn't finish in the bottom 4.

[Mofra]

A serious question for Woofers...what have we lacked in those 52 years that has meant a club like hawthorn has had such an amazingly different trajectory since that day? Of course there must be many factors but what stands out the most?
Until the modern era: Zoning
They have also had substantial resources, and have had a few absolute belters (signing Platton after Carlton bought him a new car to cross over from SA - and Platts kept the car!)

[LostDoggy]

I can't accept luck. Too many teams consistently good (hawks, filth, balco) vs poor (ourselves, saints, demons) over decades of time. We sold our quality players because we had too vs teams that bought them and attracted other talent to those players. The Roy Boys didn't go under because of luck it was sustained underwhelming performances. We've had some recent bad luck yes but it doesn't explain the length of time we've been out. I look at at Hawthorns recent trades and they are outstanding at trading good players in and keeping a hand in the draft. Gunston was one; Lake another. They trade late picks out and do swapsies with their early ones - feel like they have blueprinted Scorlibos draft analysis. Good recruiters, good traders, ruthless and strong administrators. That's all the reasons I'm fascinated by last draft and this draft. I'm really hopeful and fairly confident we won't be the team that gets bent over from here on in. I think we have strong recruiters, I know we have a strong president, we clearly have great development coaches in place. Hopefully that means our "luck" will change from herein.

[LostDoggy]

I'm really hopeful and fairly confident we won't be the team that gets bent over from here on in. I think we have strong recruiters, I know we have a strong president, we clearly have great development coaches in place. Hopefully that means our "luck" will change from herein.

We will know in a few weeks. The proverbial will hit the fan around here if our recruiters turn into softc..... this draft period.

[1eyedog]

We've never attracted the best players and if they were somehow zoned to us we'd lose them to other clubs for money that we need to survive.

[1eyedog]

Good leadership on and off the field.

This has always been patchy with us. The only thing I know is that with Freo playing in last weeks Grand Final that WE are the only club I have never seen play in a Grand Final.

[mighty_west]

With the number one draft pick (Tom Boyd) being put on the table we now have to really make a play for him imo and have a whatever it takes mentality going forward after a very strong draft last year, we also should try and secure young Gartlett in the draft too...time for this club to be ruthless and have one goal in mind, PREMIERSHIPS!!!

Oh and Crameri in the PSD, #$#@ Essendon, I'm sick of this club being "nice" and always being bent over and not gaining the onfield respect.

[LostDoggy]

With the number one draft pick (Tom Boyd) being put on the table we now have to really make a play for him imo and have a whatever it takes mentality going forward after a very strong draft last year, we also should try and secure young Gartlett in the draft too...time for this club to be ruthless and have one goal in mind, PREMIERSHIPS!!!

Oh and Crameri in the PSD, #$#@ Essendon, I'm sick of this club being "nice" and always being bent over and not gaining the onfield respect.

Love the passion MW :)

[F'scary]

With the number one draft pick (Tom Boyd) being put on the table we now have to really make a play for him imo and have a whatever it takes mentality going forward after a very strong draft last year, we also should try and secure young Gartlett in the draft too...time for this club to be ruthless and have one goal in mind, PREMIERSHIPS!!!

Oh and Crameri in the PSD, #$#@ Essendon, I'm sick of this club being "nice" and always being bent over and not gaining the onfield respect.

We would have to offer Griffen + decent steak knives (e.g Picken) to get the Boyd pick from GWS. Do we dare?

[Eastdog]

We would have to offer Griffen + decent steak knives (e.g Picken) to get the Boyd pick from GWS. Do we dare?

No way in the world we should trade Griffen. That would be the craziest decision if that happened.

[Mantis]

A good administration. It gets overlooked a LOT, we all like to focus on the players but let's face it, until the fightback the Footscray Football Club was not the most professional organisation in the land.

Post fightback hasn't exactly been smooth sailing either.

[Eastdog]

Post fightback hasn't exactly been smooth sailing either.

It got better once Smorgon came in and without Smorgon we wouldn't have been in the position we are today. St Kilda I'm hearing are struggling really bad financially.

[Mantis]

It got better once Smorgon came in and without Smorgon we wouldn't have been in the position we are today.

Smorgon (and co) was good in some ways, not so good in others.

[Eastdog]

Smorgon (and co) was good in some ways, not so good in others.

In what ways were Smorgon and his administration not very good. Would one be the debt that has built up.

[mighty_west]

Smorgon (and co) was good in some ways, not so good in others.

As far as pouring his own money into the club year in year out he was VERY good.

[mighty_west]

Love the passion MW :)

43 years and counting without seeing our club reach the pinnacle is extremely frustrating, and I'm quite young compared to some fossils on this forum :D

[mighty_west]

We would have to offer Griffen + decent steak knives (e.g Picken) to get the Boyd pick from GWS. Do we dare?

I'd definitely see if they were interested in Minson or maybe Wallis or Smith, question is will Big Will likely have the ultimate success with our club, is he still young enough?

I'm sick of our club playing safe and not daring to succeed without bring completely ridiculous (Rawlings, Street, Morgan (ie: throwing away hig picks on ordinary players)..

Hawthorn, Sydney and Geelong have proven you can trade off decent players to trade well to build Premiership sides....... have we?

[Mantis]

As far as pouring his own money into the club year in year out he was VERY good.

I'll take your word for it. :rolleyes:

[Bulldog4life]

43 years and counting without seeing our club reach the pinnacle is extremely frustrating, and I'm quite young compared to some fossils on this forum :D

Bornadog won't like that mighty west.:D

[SonofScray]

I'll take your word for it. :rolleyes:

Interested to hear what you see as the really weak areas were? For mine a few stand out, even though I wouldn't claim any great knowledge. The appointment of the bloke from Harness Racing Vic and the initial version of SpiritWest was a debacle I think? The name change is an overcooked conversation but I think the processes in place and evaluation of it were really unprofessional. Employees embezzling money etc. Presenting very often in the media with the same old doomsday message didn't sit well with me either.

I don't want to discredit the great work his group did, but it wasn't all just one way traffic and a white knight type of performance in the gig.

[bornadog]

As far as pouring his own money into the club year in year out he was VERY good.

I don't believe that happened at all.

[Happy Days]

I can't speak for pre-2005 because there was no YouTube or Facebook then and thus my generation doesn't know how to communicate apparently, but from then on the Hawks have been successful and we have only been close because their recruitment from 2000-2009 was pretty good and ours was pretty shit.

However, I think Dalrymple has done an outstanding job when players (or player types) haven't been shoved down his throat and can be everything we thought Scott Clayton was.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't believe that happened at all.
Where has this page in history come from. No one expects any president to hand over their families money and yet it seems many think he did.

[F'scary]

Bornadog won't like that mighty west.:D

Speaking of BAD, where is he?

[bornadog]

Speaking of BAD, where is he?

Currently in Northern Cyprus, then on to Taipei and Hong Kong - do you miss me:D, some think I am a fossil :D

[LostDoggy]

The Fiji experiment didnt work BAD. Hopefully the sporting giant countries of HK, Cyprus and Taipei have soem untapped talent ;)