Grant for Docherty: yes or no?

[bulldogtragic]

The Age reporting we have offered Jarrad for Docherty, or at least Brisbane exploring it.

Do you agree?

[The Coon Dog]

I have no idea who Sam Docherty is to be honest.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I suspect it would include a pick/swap of picks.

I haven't seen enough of Docherty, but this one's line ball. I think Grant gets a hell of a lot more dangerous with Crameri in the same forward half, he's such a unique player and almost impossible to match up on when his work rate and intensity is at the level it reached late in the year.

[bulldogtragic]

No Boyd. No Patton. Gia on his last legs. Higgins and Williams can not be relied upon to be fit.

Our best forward in the last 1/2 of the year gone in this scenario too.

As good as Crameri is, I don't see him turning our forward line around so much that Jarrad is tradable.

[LostDoggy]

If he doesn't accept the contract offer put forward to him by the Club, yes. If he's keen for a longer contract elsewhere, good luck to him. If Grant wants to stay a Bulldog he needs to repay the faith shown in him over the last 7 seasons. Haven't seen much of Docherty but he by all accounts he sounds like Lindsay Gilbee 2.0

[bulldogtragic]

If he doesn't accept the contract offer put forward to him by the Club, yes. If he's keen for a longer contract elsewhere, good luck to him. If Grant wants to stay a Bulldog he needs to repay the faith shown in him over the last 7 seasons. Haven't seen much of Docherty but he by all accounts he sounds like Lindsay Gilbee 2.0
This could be taken from bomber blitz.

[comrade]

This could be taken from bomber blitz.

Except Crammers has worked hard to drag himself off the rookie list and been a valuable contributor in Essendon's best 22. 3 time leading goal kicker, yet they aren't prepared to offer him a suitable, market value contract hence his desire to move to our club.

I haven't heard any inkling that clubs are throwing themselves at JG with long term deals and why would they? He's played a handful of consistently good games in 2-3 years. We are right to stand our ground for the time being.

[bulldogtragic]

BACKGROUND
• From the relatively untapped AFL recruiting area of Phillip Island in Victoria, Sam Docherty started playing local senior football as a 15 year-old.

• His 2010 pre-season was hampered after he strained the quadratus lumberum muscle in his back, and as a result he missed selection in Gippsland Power's TAC Cup squad as an underage player.

• He went on to represent the Power in 2011, and quickly became a star playing across half-back. He averaged more than 22 disposals per game (at 71.8% efficiency), and ranked second in the entire competition in mark from opposition kicks and rebound 50s.

• His style of play was likened somewhat to Collingwood's Heath Shaw, Carlton's Chris Yarran and even the Lions' own Jed Adcock.

• It therefore came as no surprise that he was selected in the backline of the 2011 TAC Cup Team of the Year. He also received the Gippsland Power's Most Disciplined Player and Trainer's Award.

• Despite being selected in Victoria Country's initial squad, Docherty missed selection in the opening games of the 2011 AFL National Championships. But he earned a late call-up in time for Victoria Country's match against Western Australia, and seized the opportunity with a best-on-ground performance.

• A late-season hip injury forced him to miss the final matches of the TAC Cup season, and meant he could not participate in the majority of fitness tests at the 2011 AFL Draft Combine at Etihad Stadium.

• Yet Sam's supreme skills had him at the forefront of every AFL recruiters' mind, and he was ultimately snapped up by the Lions with their second selection (Pick No.12 overall) at the 2011 AFL National Draft.

[bulldogsman]

Big, big fan of Docherty. I think he's exactly what we need too.

Grant played a few really good games when he came into the side, then didn't do a heap after that. The same could happen next year as it did this year.

I'd certainly do the deal.

[LostDoggy]

This could be taken from bomber blitz.

Because I'm okay with Grant moving on in the right circumstances or I'm vastly overrating Docherty? I simply meant he sounded a similar type to Lindsay, and it'd be a dream come true to have another player of his quality for the next decade.

[LostDoggy]

Does he want to come to us that's the issue for me? I want Grant with us.

[chef]

I would do it.

[LostDoggy]

I like the look of Docherty. But also like the potential of Grant.

Hard one.

[azabob]

I like the look of Docherty. But also like the potential of Grant.

Hard one.

Doesnt that sum it up though... The potential of Grant.

[ratsmac]

I like the look of Docherty. But also like the potential of Grant.

Hard one.

Same for me.

It has taken me 6 year's to finally come to like Grant as a footballer due to his form in the latter part of the season, and now he could be traded. I just hope he's not our x-factor we need and he ends up at another club. Tough call.

[OLD SCRAGGer]

I want us to keep Jarrad Grant

[G-Mo77]

I live in my Western Bulldog fishbowl and really don't know that much about Docherty. From discussions it does seem like fair value. I'd rather have Grant though, he's like a small forward with the height of a KPF and really has an X factor about him. I'd hate to lose that.

[ReLoad]

Games are won accross half back, all the run comes from there and we have suffered dearly post harbrow.

Whilst grant has "come good" to an extent the weaknesses in the back half far outweigh our forward line issues.

if this deal gets done its a huge win for us.

[always right]

I want them both but if forced to choose....I'll go with Docherty as he is clearly the type of player we need. The problem with Grant is he is unique which makes it possible to cover him but not replace him. The question is whether his last six games are indicative of what's to come or was it simply a tease? Risk and reward....but fair to say Grant's currency has never been higher so do we grab what we can now?

[The Doctor]

Games are won accross half back, all the run comes from there and we have suffered dearly post harbrow.

Whilst grant has "come good" to an extent the weaknesses in the back half far outweigh our forward line issues.

if this deal gets done its a huge win for us.

Agree with most of this.

the forward line remains an issue, that the recruiting of Crameri alone will not fix

[Maddog37]

Crameri in Psd. Docherty for pick 22 and keep Grant.

[BulldogBelle]

That would be heaven on a plate.

[Mofra]

I voted yes - run & carry and disposal efficiency are lacking in the team, Docherty provides that.

Grant is good - but he's icing, not the cake.

[always right]

Crameri in Psd. Docherty for pick 22 and keep Grant.

Ideal but won't happen. Bears are looking for something better.

[LongWait]

Savage is going to St.Kilda, so Carlton are likely to turn their attention to a deal with Brisbane for Docherty. We'd need to offer up something more than just Grant to get Docherty in my opinion.

[comrade]

Savage is going to St.Kilda, so Carlton are likely to turn their attention to a deal with Brisbane for Docherty. We'd need to offer up something more than just Grant to get Docherty in my opinion.

Can't see them offering much in terms of players; Lucas, Casboult, Bootsma etc won't get it done. It would take their first rounder. Are they likely to pay that price?

[Hot_Doggies]

Grant and Higgins?

[turtle]

I suspect it would include a pick/swap of picks.

I haven't seen enough of Docherty, but this one's line ball. I think Grant gets a hell of a lot more dangerous with Crameri in the same forward half, he's such a unique player and almost impossible to match up on when his work rate and intensity is at the level it reached late in the year.

My thoughts as well

[LostDoggy]

If this happens and we go with Doc, then does this change our focus in the draft from Scharenberg - assuming he's the best available and previous picks go with Boyd, Kelly/Aish ?

[Bulldog4life]

Very hard decision to make. I happened to see Docherty play in the last game against us in Brisbane. Very impressive, speedy and the type of player we need. I was also impressed like others with Grants end to the season. Problem is when you trade to get a good player sometimes you have to trade a good player.

[bulldogtragic]

During the time we went from dysfunctional forward line to winners this happened:

2013 AFL Statistical Rankings: Jarrad Grant:

Ranked 2nd in Goal Assists Per Game
Ranked 10th in Goals Per Game
Ranked 16th in Marks Inside 50 Per Game


Robbing Peter to pay Paul. And Grant only gets more dangerous with Stu.

[Hotdog60]

Some old highlights of Sam.

vFg78Pq_MmQ

[Happy Days]

During the time we went from dysfunctional forward line to winners this happened:

2013 AFL Statistical Rankings: Jarrad Grant:

Ranked 2nd in Goal Assists Per Game
Ranked 10th in Goals Per Game
Ranked 16th in Marks Inside 50 Per Game


Robbing Peter to pay Paul. And Grant only gets more dangerous with Stu.

Totally agree, I was compiling something similar to post myself.

Plus Docherty picked Carlton. Plus Docherty, as a running defender, has 4 (as in 1-2-3-4) career bounces. So there's that.

[Scorlibo]

Looks a lot like Tutty.

[LongWait]

Can't see them offering much in terms of players; Lucas, Casboult, Bootsma etc won't get it done. It would take their first rounder. Are they likely to pay that price?

I don't know what Carlton will do but they and Essendon have made positive noises in the media about Docherty.

Will a Docherty trade effect how we use pick 4? There may be a number of factors at play that will influence how we and other clubs value Docherty, so I'm only guessing - I have no inside information.

[F'scary]

I'm for keeping Grant.

Forward line needs: he offers a lot.

Running half backs: we got a few options and there's time to develop and recruit.

[bulldogtragic]

Wood, Tutt, Howard, Pearce, Goodes, JJ, Murphy and now Docherty.

How many HBFs do we need or want.

[azabob]

Wood, Tutt, Howard, Pearce, Goodes, JJ, Murphy and now Docherty.

How many HBFs do we need or want.

Since when is Tutt a HBF?

Murphy and Goodes gone in one to two years, question marks over Howard & Pearce Wood ended up forward late 2013.

You must admit our small running defenders are an issue.

[1eyedog]

The icing.

The cake is never complete without it.

[LostDoggy]

The icing.

The cake is never complete without it.

I don't like icing :P

[bulldogtragic]

Then cull some before adding more.

[Mofra]

Wood, Tutt, Howard, Pearce, Goodes, JJ, Murphy and now Docherty.

How many HBFs do we need or want.
JJ is more BP small type. Goodes & Murphy wont be around too much longer. Docherty is a massive upgrade on the others and may transition into the midfield rotation as he develops.

[Scorlibo]

Since when is Tutt a HBF?

Murphy and Goodes gone in one to two years, question marks over Howard & Pearce Wood ended up forward late 2013.

You must admit our small running defenders are an issue.

Johannisen is the guy we're counting on to go on with the form he showed early in the year.

Tutt was drafted as a HBF-Wing type, has only played more forward recently.

[Scorlibo]

JJ is more BP small type. Goodes & Murphy wont be around too much longer. Docherty is a massive upgrade on the others and may transition into the midfield rotation as he develops.

JJ seems to me to be more or less the classic offensive rebounder.

[Dog54]

Crameri in Psd. Docherty for pick 22 and keep Grant.

Possibly it would mean Grant to Brisbane Crameri to us and Docherty to Essendon. Essendon was a club if choice for Docherty ??

[soupman]

I was originally very against trading Grant but having slept on it I think the idea has merit.

Our forwardline in 3 years should look something like below which I think is pretty strong:

Stringer, Campbell, Grant
Crameri, Jones, Dahlhaus

with Higgins, Dickson and Hunter also being in the mix. I think aside from Campbell, Jones, Dickson and Higgins the rest could be very dangerous players, and the remainder should fall in the good category. I think we have the makings of a very good fowardline.

Our defence however looks something like this:

JJ, Talia, Young
Picken, Roughead, Wood

JJ, Talia and Roughead will all be very good defenders, but I think we need to upgrade at the very least one of the others, and also try and bring in some more quality depth in there.

Grant may never be worth this much again, and hasn't shown himself to be a big game player in the past, which is what I believe the club is trying to build the side into. As a result if we can trade him now to upgrade an area that I think we are in the most need of boosting I would be supportive of it.

[Ozza]

IF someone had have said to us - at , say round 12, that we could shop Grant and expect to get the number 12 pick from the 2011 draft who suits our needs perfectly (pace, good skills, half back) we'd have thought Christmas had come early.

Grant having a good finish to the season makes it more complicated....but I guess overall I'm am in favour of it (in a close call). I just hope we don't have to downgrade picks to get it done.

[1eyedog]

JJ seems to me to be more or less the classic offensive rebounder.

Exactly, JJ would be wasted in the back pocket. The only upgrade I see on Docherty when pitted against the current brigade, bearing in mind he has only played 13 games, is that he is younger than Murphy and probably in front of Tutt. I'm not so sure he's in front of Wood at the moment, Wood has his deficiencies but when he plays well he looks the goods. I wouldn't write Wood off yet and we shouldn't move heaven and earth to secure a as yet unproven half back flanker. Happy to keep pick 4 and get Scharenberg if possible. Major upgrade on Docherty for the HBF.

[bulldogsman]

Exactly, JJ would be wasted in the back pocket. The only upgrade I see on Docherty when pitted against the current brigade, bearing in mind he has only played 13 games, is that he is younger than Murphy and probably in front of Tutt. I'm not so sure he's in front of Wood at the moment, Wood has his deficiencies but when he plays well he looks the goods. I wouldn't write Wood off yet and we shouldn't move heaven and earth to secure a as yet unproven half back flanker. Happy to keep pick 4 and get Scharenberg if possible. Major upgrade on Docherty for the HBF.

Which is very rarely if you ask me.

I think Docherty should be able to transition into the midfield in the future anyway. By reports his inside games has improved a great deal.

[Remi Moses]

This is a tough one, but I'd do the trade.
Just not convinced on Jarrad

[1eyedog]

Which is very rarely if you ask me.

I think Docherty should be able to transition into the midfield in the future anyway. By reports his inside games has improved a great deal.

So will Scharenberg.

[GVGjr]

I would do it.

Why so Chef?

[GVGjr]

Isn't Docherty indicating he wants to go to Carlton? If he can't see that we would be a better place to land then his decision making isn't the best.

[chef]

Why so Chef?

I'm not sold on Grant and in all honesty he could just as likely be on the scrap heap this time next year as holding down a spot in the 22, especially if we sign Crameri.

Docherty is younger, IMO will be a much better player once developed fully and plays in a position of need.

I think it would be a very smart move by our club.

[chef]

So will Scharenberg.

What if we swap Grant and pick 4 for Docherty and pick 7?

[GVGjr]

What if we swap Grant and pick 4 for Docherty and pick 7?

I would be asking for that if I was at the Lions.

[bulldogsman]

So will Scharenberg.

What I was trying to say is I don't rate Wood, so at least one of Scharenberg or Docherty would have to play back.


Isn't Docherty indicating he wants to go to Carlton? If he can't see that we would be a better place to land then his decision making isn't the best.

Pretty sure he was a mad Carlton supporter growing up and so is his family.

[GVGjr]

Pretty sure he was a mad Carlton supporter growing up and so is his family.

Needs to think with his head not his heart. They're done.

[Scorlibo]

Needs to think with his head not his heart. They're done.

GVGjr is that Grant depicted in your avatar? Or Murphy? Or someone else?

[HOSE B ROMERO]

Looks to me that Grant has finally found his mojo and we need someone with his attributes in the forward line. If the trade was for a tall marking forward half as good as Franklin, then i would do the deal.

[anfo27]

I think its a bad move by Jared if he leaves the kennel. Macca has shown him the way to redemption & in this point in his career macca is the best coach for him. If he leaves i can see his career going down the toilet.
Hard for me to comment on Docherty as i have never seen him play but by the sounds of his attributes he seems like the type of player we are looking for.

Would pick 22 get the deal done? I can see Crameri getting to us in the PSD.

[anfo27]

What if we swap Grant and pick 4 for Docherty and pick 7?

Why does Docherty have more currency than Grant? Would be very very very annoyed if that scenario happened.

[chef]

Why does Docherty have more currency than Grant? Would be very very very annoyed if that scenario happened.

Because according to some he's a better(or will be a better) player.

[anfo27]

Because according to some he's a better(or will be a better) player.

I know Grant has been disappointing but the last 8 weeks showed he can be a very damaging player. Docherty is a high draft pick but has done nothing in his time at the lions. Grant has runs on the board if anyone has more currency it would have to be Grant.

[anfo27]

Chef what do you know of the Walker Malthouse falling out? BS?

[chef]

Chef what do you know of the Walker Malthouse falling out? BS?

Haven't heard anything(he was in at work on Tuesday). I'll do some digging.

[Scorlibo]

I know Grant has been disappointing but the last 8 weeks showed he can be a very damaging player. Docherty is a high draft pick but has done nothing in his time at the lions. Grant has runs on the board if anyone has more currency it would have to be Grant.

I see them as very evenly placed. Certainly I would be very unhappy if a deal was done involving Grant AND a swap of draft picks in Brisbane's favour.

[chef]

I know Grant has been disappointing but the last 8 weeks showed he can be a very damaging player. Docherty is a high draft pick but has done nothing in his time at the lions. Grant has runs on the board if anyone has more currency it would have to be Grant.

I think Docherty is going to be a very good player and would fit in nicely into our backline(and mid field eventually). With Crameri coming in and if the Lions were interested in Grant I wouldn't mind this trade being done, but then again I don't have as much faith in Jarred making it as others around here.

Depending on who we are focussing on in the draft, the difference between pick 4 and 7 may not be that great.

[ledge]

Compare grants first year and Dockertys I would think Docherty wins

[chef]

Chef what do you know of the Walker Malthouse falling out? BS?

Maybe I don't need to ask..............

Andrew walker ‏@Walkytalky1

1h
My short term memory has never been a strength of mine, can't believe I dont remember having a falling out with mick!! #greatjournalism #


:D

[Scorlibo]

Compare grants first year and Dockertys I would think Docherty wins

He didn't play a game in his first year (2012).

He has played 13 average games in his second year, which would place him on roughly the same pace as Grant in his first couple of seasons, considering Grant is a taller type.

[anfo27]

Maybe I don't need to ask..............

Andrew walker ‏@Walkytalky1

1h
My short term memory has never been a strength of mine, can't believe I dont remember having a falling out with mick!! #greatjournalism #


:D

Thought it was BS. Carlton season ended a while ago & if there was a falling out you would of thought it would have come out a lot earlier.

Disagreed with you a few years back when we chased him but he has clearly proven you right the last couple of years. Would have been a handy pick up for us.

[anfo27]

I think Docherty is going to be a very good player and would fit in nicely into our backline(and mid field eventually). With Crameri coming in and if the Lions were interested in Grant I wouldn't mind this trade being done, but then again I don't have as much faith in Jarred making it as others around here.

Depending on who we are focussing on in the draft, the difference between pick 4 and 7 may not be that great.

I don't disagree with that but don't think Docherty has more currency than Grant.

[AndrewP6]

I'd do it. Everything about Grant has been/still is, about what he could offer, or the mysterious X-factor - IMO, he's had time, he's shown nothing this year until the latter part of the Season. He was a high draft pick and hasn't been able to flick the switch under two coach groups(not for sustained periods anyway). Offer him a year (late 2013 form earned him a reprieve), hold firm to that, and trade him if he doesn't want to accept it.

[boydogs]

We'd need to offer up something more than just Grant to get Docherty in my opinion.


It would take their first rounder. Are they likely to pay that price?

Yeah I don't see anyone saying this will be a straight swap, even in our initial offer. I think we will need to beat Carlton's first rounder, which would take more than Grant. I would do Grant for Docherty but I don't think Brisbane would.

[ratsmac]

Yeah I don't see anyone saying this will be a straight swap, even in our initial offer. I think we will need to beat Carlton's first rounder, which would take more than Grant. I would do Grant for Docherty but I don't think Brisbane would.

IMO if it takes more than a straight swap, forget it. Grant is in the age group we need so that holds more value for us. That probably means nothing to Brisbane though. If they want Grant they pay for him. It's Docherty who wants to leave them and not Grant wanting to leave us. If they can get something better good luck to them.
I voted for a Grant / Docherty swap btw. Only because I think Grant is the type of player who goes missing when the heat is on. My opinion only though.

[ledge]

IMO if it takes more than a straight swap, forget it. Grant is in the age group we need so that holds more value for us. That probably means nothing to Brisbane though. If they want Grant they pay for him. It's Docherty who wants to leave them and not Grant wanting to leave us. If they can get something better good luck to them.
I voted for a Grant / Docherty swap btw. Only because I think Grant is the type of player who goes missing when the heat is on. My opinion only though.

It is Grant that wants to leave us too, we only offered him one year,he went looking around and Brissy have offered him 2 years, just so happens the lions have a player who wants to come to Melbourne in Docherty so it makes sense to look at a swap somehow especially as Docherty seems to be a player we want.

[Topdog]

Why do people keep saying Grant has shown nothing until the last 8 weeks. He showed plenty at the beginning of his career before fading badly. I can understand people believing he won't be a very good player but this changing of history is not the way to display it.

[Greystache]

Why do people keep saying Grant has shown nothing until the last 8 weeks. He showed plenty at the beginning of his career before fading badly. I can understand people believing he won't be a very good player but this changing of history is not the way to display it.

He did?

He played some patchy games at Williamstown in his first season before getting OP and missing the second half of the year. His second season he played one AFL game, didn't get a kick for the match, and finished in the Williamstown reserves. His third season he showed some good signs at AFL level before a very poor 3 finals. His 4th, 5th, and 6th seasons were spent drifting between AFL and VFL with little consistency at either level before a late season run of form in 2013 saved him from being delisted.

Who's re-writing history?

[ledge]

Just read that grant would rather stay at the dogs and the dogs offer was one year deal with second year option , also looks like Docherty will go to Carlton

[bulldogtragic]

Just read that grant would rather stay at the dogs and the dogs offer was one year deal with second year option , also looks like Docherty will go to Carlton
Well that's that then. :)

[Greystache]

Just read that grant would rather stay at the dogs and the dogs offer was one year deal with second year option , also looks like Docherty will go to Carlton

Good result. I think JMac really played this the right way.

[Topdog]

He did?

He played some patchy games at Williamstown in his first season before getting OP and missing the second half of the year. His second season he played one AFL game, didn't get a kick for the match, and finished in the Williamstown reserves. His third season he showed some good signs at AFL level before a very poor 3 finals. His 4th, 5th, and 6th seasons were spent drifting between AFL and VFL with little consistency at either level before a late season run of form in 2013 saved him from being delisted.

Who's re-writing history?

I don't include any players VFL career when talking about their AFL career. It's very different and there are plenty of players who look out of place in a VFL side yet when given a chance in the AFL shine.

He actually got 1 kick in his first game but yeah singling out his first game is a touch on the harsh side.

In his first proper season of AFL he showed some very god signs. Good to see you agree.

His 4th season wasn't drifting through AFL/VFL at all. He played 16 games and had quite a few effective games and again showed something. He was awful for 2 games in a row and correctly given a spell before ending the year strongly.

2012 was very inconsistent and generally a poor year with his courage and workrate being the only consistent part of his game - both were consistently poor.

And then yes in 2013 he again showed something. So in 3 of his 4 years at AFL he has shown that he has what it takes to play AFL at some level. To say he has never shown anything before the last 8 games of the year is re-writing history.

[chef]

Just read that grant would rather stay at the dogs and the dogs offer was one year deal with second year option , also looks like Docherty will go to Carlton

Seems a fair deal.

[Greystache]

I don't include any players VFL career when talking about their AFL career. It's very different and there are plenty of players who look out of place in a VFL side yet when given a chance in the AFL shine.

He actually got 1 kick in his first game but yeah singling out his first game is a touch on the harsh side.

In his first proper season of AFL he showed some very god signs. Good to see you agree.

His 4th season wasn't drifting through AFL/VFL at all. He played 16 games and had quite a few effective games and again showed something. He was awful for 2 games in a row and correctly given a spell before ending the year strongly.

2012 was very inconsistent and generally a poor year with his courage and workrate being the only consistent part of his game - both were consistently poor.

And then yes in 2013 he again showed something. So in 3 of his 4 years at AFL he has shown that he has what it takes to play AFL at some level. To say he has never shown anything before the last 8 games of the year is re-writing history.

If showing something at AFL level means playing a half reasonable game between stints in and out of the side I think you're extremely generous.

2008 & 2009 were a write off

2010 was a good season,

2011 was very poor and the "credits in the bank" system we employed at the time was the only reason he played 16 games.

2012 was poor

2013 he played stints in Williamstown's reserves before a late season form reversal saved his career.

He was 8 games from being delisted. He's played 58 games in 6 seasons for a reason, that is outside of the 2010 season he has produced very little. You can re-write history anyway you like, but showing something isn't just a flash from time to time between extremely poor efforts.

[Scorlibo]

If showing something at AFL level means playing a half reasonable game between stints in and out of the side I think you're extremely generous.

2008 & 2009 were a write off

2010 was a good season,

2011 was very poor and the "credits in the bank" system we employed at the time was the only reason he played 16 games.

2012 was poor

2013 he played stints in Williamstown's reserves before a late season form reversal saved his career.

He was 8 games from being delisted. He's played 58 games in 6 seasons for a reason, that is outside of the 2010 season he has produced very little. You can re-write history anyway you like, but showing something isn't just a flash from time to time between extremely poor efforts.

2011 was 'very poor'? He basically maintained his 2010 form for a large part of the season before having a couple of very poor games and being dropped. Was still going at one goal a game and contributing, otherwise he wouldn't have got a game.

2012 was more of the same and it's fair to say he stagnated but again, gave a goal a game and contributed enough to earn 13 games.

2013 he was put on forced leave from the senior side and came back in the best form of his career, ending the season having averaged the second most goal assists in the league, showing progression on what he produced in a brilliant 2010 when he was, among players eligible for the rising star at the time:

#1 in marks inside 50
#2 in goals
#2 in goal assists
#3 in marks

What I see in Grant is a talented player who, after 3 years of having not progressed from an outstanding entrance to the game, has shown form sustained over 8 games which puts him in the top bracket of forwards in the league in a number of areas. To put so much work into a unique player, to see him finally flourish, only to sell him for another player who has not shown elite performance at the highest level would be very disappointing. To sell him plus draft picks for Docherty would be downright idiotic. Grant is worth more to us than he is to anyone else.

[whythelongface]

Just read that grant would rather stay at the dogs and the dogs offer was one year deal with second year option , also looks like Docherty will go to Carlton

Happy with that if true. Whilst I was in favour of a Grant for Docherty swap, I certainly have no qualms in us retaining Grant, as I believe he will develop into a solid contributor over the next few seasons.

[KT31]

Trade tracker still mentions we are pursuing Docherty quite actively.
Maybe we have put up another player or two ?

[Happy Days]

Trade tracker still mentions we are pursuing Docherty quite actively.
Maybe we have put up another player or two ?

I hope my vitriol earlier didn't dissuade anyone from thinking I don't like Docherty for us, I just don't want to give up Grant. Just because I don't think we should trade Grant for an equally unknown, albeit younger quantity, doesn't mean I'm not excited by what the unknown quantity can bring (THE BOX, THE BOX!!!)

I guess I just want one of those Big Footy trades where we give them Wood, Addison an our third round pick.

[Greystache]

2011 was 'very poor'? He basically maintained his 2010 form for a large part of the season before having a couple of very poor games and being dropped. Was still going at one goal a game and contributing, otherwise he wouldn't have got a game.

10 disposal and 1 goal a game. Yes, that's very poor. Credits in the bank was why he was retained so long.


2012 was more of the same and it's fair to say he stagnated but again, gave a goal a game and contributed enough to earn 13 games.

He was put on forced leave in 2012 due to his level of performance/effort, that's pretty telling.


2013 he was put on forced leave from the senior side and came back in the best form of his career, ending the season having averaged the second most goal assists in the league, showing progression on what he produced in a brilliant 2010 when he was, among players eligible for the rising star at the time:

#1 in marks inside 50
#2 in goals
#2 in goal assists
#3 in marks

What I see in Grant is a talented player who, after 3 years of having not progressed from an outstanding entrance to the game, has shown form sustained over 8 games which puts him in the top bracket of forwards in the league in a number of areas. To put so much work into a unique player, to see him finally flourish, only to sell him for another player who has not shown elite performance at the highest level would be very disappointing. To sell him plus draft picks for Docherty would be downright idiotic. Grant is worth more to us than he is to anyone else.

His forced leave was 2012, he played a mix of Williamstown seniors and reserves based on form for the first half of the season.

His finish to the season was excellent and that's why he's still on the list. I'm hopeful he has turned the corner and will step up further next year, but his career history suggests 2014 will be a very disappointing season, which is why I am fully supportive of the 1+1 contract we have offered him.

[Happy Days]

He was put on forced leave in 2012 due to his level of performance/effort, that's pretty telling.



His forced leave was 2012, he played a mix of Williamstown seniors and reserves based on form for the first half of the season.

Based on my limited understanding of that time period, I view the forced leave as a misstep by McCartney to add muscle to his frame, which we all accepted a long time ago is not anatomically possible.

Or was the leave due to wider reasons? I was away at the time so I might have missed some detail.

[Greystache]

Based on my limited understanding of that time period, I view the forced leave as a misstep by McCartney to add muscle to his frame, which we all accepted a long time ago is not anatomically possible.

Or was the leave due to wider reasons? I was away at the time so I might have missed some detail.

Gym work was was part of it, there were several things he was forced to work on. Overall it was so he would have a month of supervised training and development where he couldn't hide in the middle of the group and coast.

[Scorlibo]

10 disposal and 1 goal a game. Yes, that's very poor. Credits in the bank was why he was retained so long.

His stats from rounds 1 through 8 read exactly the same as in 2010. He then played two howlers, was dropped and his season was derailed. I don't view that season as any different to the 'second year blues' experienced by so many other players. Certainly I don't think he was gifted games because of credits in the bank - have a look at the game log and you'll see pretty clearly that where he didn't perform, he was dropped and when he was on song early in the year, he was earning his games (and when he went back and performed at Williamstown).

We'll never agree on what occurred with Jarrad Grant from 2011-13.


His finish to the season was excellent and that's why he's still on the list. I'm hopeful he has turned the corner and will step up further next year, but his career history suggests 2014 will be a very disappointing season, which is why I am fully supportive of the 1+1 contract we have offered him.

Whilst I think that a one year contract with the option of a second is probably what Jarrad has earned on the basis of form, given the circumstances it's more responsible for the club to simply lock him away for two and be done with the issue. I feel like giving him a one year deal makes him more likely to stuff up next year than the other way around.

Jarrad hasn't shown this kind of sustained form since being drafted so I'm not inclined to read too much into prior inconsistency.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I want them both but if forced to choose....I'll go with Docherty as he is clearly the type of player we need. The problem with Grant is he is unique which makes it possible to cover him but not replace him. The question is whether his last six games are indicative of what's to come or was it simply a tease? Risk and reward....but fair to say Grant's currency has never been higher so do we grab what we can now?

Docherty is expected to become a Blue tomorrow, as indicated to me today by Michael Malthouse.

[chef]

What are they trading for him?

[boydogs]

IMO if it takes more than a straight swap, forget it. Grant is in the age group we need so that holds more value for us. That probably means nothing to Brisbane though. If they want Grant they pay for him. It's Docherty who wants to leave them and not Grant wanting to leave us. If they can get something better good luck to them.
I voted for a Grant / Docherty swap btw. Only because I think Grant is the type of player who goes missing when the heat is on. My opinion only though.

Looks like we were offering Grant to Brisbane in case Carlton weren't prepared to offer their first rounder. Always good to get your best offer in when the player is leaving and their club is forced to get the best offer they can in a fire sale situation, it might just be accepted.

[F'scary]

I'm saying again, I want Grant to stay. That is all.

[Twodogs]

Come on Doc.

[jeemak]

Grant's first year was a write off.

His second year was as I'd expect from a first year player with a terribly under-developed body.

His third year was outstanding.

His fourth year was average, whilst statistically OK in some areas lacked severely in others.

His fifth year was terrible.

His sixth year finished well after starting out poorly.

For a guy that physically started a long way back, his output hasn't been too bad. Especially if you concede his first year was ruined by a sea creature bite and OP, and 2013 had its first half ruined by back issues.

Looking at it, his six years have netted a total of 1.75-2.00 good years of output, with one of them being completely stuffed. I really don't know what the fuss is about considering his physical limitations.

That doesn't mean he should be traded or not. It also doesn't mean he should get an automatic two year deal after an eight game resurgence.

[Reigning Maddogs]

We should offer our Pick 22 for Docherty and keep Grant. Leaves our 3rd round pick for Crameri and maybe a swap of 4th rounders. About right considering Crmeri is damaged goods.

[boydogs]

We should offer our Pick 22 for Docherty and keep Grant. Leaves our 3rd round pick for Crameri and maybe a swap of 4th rounders. About right considering Crmeri is damaged goods.

Rumour on BF that Carlton will get Docherty for pick 28. If pick 22 brings him to us, I would risk losing Crameri to get it done.

[bulldogtragic]

Rumour on BF that Carlton will get Docherty for pick 28. If pick 22 brings him to us, I would risk losing Crameri to get it done.
Now that's a good conversation. In trying to 'do the right thing' for Stu and Essendon do we lose a potential good player. I'd hate to think at the end of the trade period Stu has to go PSD and we missed Docherty.

[Hotdog60]

Now that's a good conversation. In trying to 'do the right thing' for Stu and Essendon do we lose a potential good player. I'd hate to think at the end of the trade period Stu has to go PSD and we missed Docherty.

News Limited is also reporting that the Blues have won the race for Brisbane Lions young gun Sam Docherty, with a trade a possibility to be completed as early as Monday

[GVGjr]

We should offer our Pick 22 for Docherty and keep Grant. Leaves our 3rd round pick for Crameri and maybe a swap of 4th rounders. About right considering Crmeri is damaged goods.

Brisbane want players more than draft picks given the player exodus they are experiencing and it would appear that Docherty doesn't really want to come to us. Based on that we should look past him.

By the way, Crameri isn't damaged goods.

[ratsmac]

Brisbane want players more than draft picks given the player exodus they are experiencing and it would appear that Docherty doesn't really want to come to us. Based on that we should look past him.

By the way, Crameri isn't damaged goods.

Ditto

[KT31]

Rumour on BF that Carlton will get Docherty for pick 28. If pick 22 brings him to us, I would risk losing Crameri to get it done.

At 22 Cramerei is a better pickup than Docherty.

[boydogs]

Brisbane want players more than draft picks given the player exodus they are experiencing

Then we should be in the box seat. Emma Quayle reported we are offering players whilst Carlton are offering picks. Trumping a pick 28 offer with pick 22 is really irrelevant to whether Brisbane would prefer players.


It would appear that Docherty doesn't really want to come to us. Based on that we should look past him.

Crameri seems to have a connection with BMac and Stringer and specifically wants to play for us, Docherty seems to be more about moving interstate.


At 22 Cramerei is a better pickup than Docherty.

Pick 22 for Crameri isn't getting it done. I would hate to hang out for Essendon to accept it only for Crameri to go to the PSD when pick 22 could have gotten Docherty. I thought Carlton would have to offer their first rounder, but if Brisbane are looking to accept pick 28 then that changes everything.

[Reigning Maddogs]

Brisbane want players more than draft picks given the player exodus they are experiencing and it would appear that Docherty doesn't really want to come to us. Based on that we should look past him.

By the way, Crameri isn't damaged goods.

Media reports contradict your assertion above regarding Brisbane wanting players...apparently they are demanding pick 28 from the Blues...As you would appreciate we can easily trump this with Pick 22. Please see link to support my comment...

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/carlton-set-to-secure-brisbane-young-gun-sam-docherty/story-fn69a32t-1226738560266

Time will tell regarding Crameri - ASADA may think otherwise...

[bulldogtragic]

Screw a Essendon. Snooze you lose.

Operation Get Docherty for 22.

[Reigning Maddogs]

Then we should be in the box seat. Emma Quayle reported we are offering players whilst Carlton are offering picks. Trumping a pick 28 offer with pick 22 is really irrelevant to whether Brisbane would prefer players.



Crameri seems to have a connection with BMac and Stringer and specifically wants to play for us, Docherty seems to be more about moving interstate.



Pick 22 for Crameri isn't getting it done. I would hate to hang out for Essendon to accept it only for Crameri to go to the PSD when pick 22 could have gotten Docherty. I thought Carlton would have to offer their first rounder, but if Brisbane are looking to accept pick 28 then that changes everything.

Agree with all your points above.

[chef]

Media reports contradict your assertion above regarding Brisbane wanting players...apparently they are demanding pick 28 from the Blues...As you would appreciate we can easily trump this with Pick 22. Please see link to support my comment...

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/carlton-set-to-secure-brisbane-young-gun-sam-docherty/story-fn69a32t-1226738560266

Time will tell regarding Crameri - ASADA may think otherwise...:rolleyes:

Apparently he's fine. No need for the eye rolleyes around here mate:)

[Reigning Maddogs]

Apparently he's fine. No need for the eye rolleyes around here mate:)

Would you care to provide a reference to where ASADA or anyone outside of Essendon have stated that he will be fine?

And I'd apprediate if you don't tell me how to post or what I can and can't use for my emoticons...mate :rolleyes::confused:

[chef]

Would you care to provide a reference to where ASADA or anyone outside of Essendon have stated that he will be fine?

And I'd apprediate if you don't tell me how to post or what I can and can't use for my emoticons...mate :rolleyes::confused:

Yeah, nah I'm not going to bother. You can work it out for yourself.

[Mofra]

Would you care to provide a reference to where ASADA or anyone outside of Essendon have stated that he will be fine?

And I'd apprediate if you don't tell me how to post or what I can and can't use for my emoticons...mate :rolleyes::confused:
The phrase "the walls have ears" is definitely applicable in the AFL - as an industry, much of what happens is known weeks out (e.g. the Essendon punishment being reported weeks before an announcement).

[Reigning Maddogs]

The phrase "the walls have ears" is definitely applicable in the AFL - as an industry, much of what happens is known weeks out (e.g. the Essendon punishment being reported weeks before an announcement).

The AFL had a range of penalties that could be applied to the EFC for bringing the game into disrepute. Draft picks, fines, suspensions etc. Based on what the AFL has done in the past ie Carlton (salary cap) and Adelaide (draft tampering) and the penalties handed out to those clubs I don't belive it would have been too difficult to deduce for anyone in the media the likely penalties that were to be handed out to Essendon...ie your reference above that the panalties were known weeks before.

[Topdog]

So the media guess every penalty correctly? There are loads of leaks in the AFL.

[Reigning Maddogs]

So the media guess every penalty correctly? There are loads of leaks in the AFL.

Please provide a reference where the media guessed the penalty exactly?

It was discussed in various media outlets regarding $2m fine, no 1st and 2nd draft picks for 2years etc etc These were common elements to the panalties handed out to Carlton and Adelaide. I really don't think a few people talking about likely penalties hardly supports and AFL leak conspiracy.

[jeemak]

Sorry RM, if you can't accept the football industry is rife with leaking then I don't really know what to say.

All major organisations leak, all industries talk. Some of it is scuttlebutt, other parts of it are closer to the mark. The AFL/footy industry is unique, in that those talking are often long term mates that played together, coached together etc over many many years. It's one of the most insular industries I can think of.

I'd be very surprised if we didn't know whether Crameri is clear, or in strife.

[Remi Moses]

I'd be mortified if we didn't know .
The Afl leaks like the proverbial Sieve

[Twodogs]

Settle petals.

[LostDoggy]

Interesting to read that Polec and Yeo are most likely going to be traded for draft picks. Given that Carlton are reportedly offering a pick for Docherty as well, does this make Jarrad a more attractive prospect to the Lions? They have said with the amount of young talent departing the club their wish was to bring in a mix of picks and players.

[Bulldog4life]

Interesting to read that Polec and Yeo are most likely going to be traded for draft picks. Given that Carlton are reportedly offering a pick for Docherty as well, does this make Jarrad a more attractive prospect to the Lions? They have said with the amount of young talent departing the club their wish was to bring in a mix of picks and players.

Yes I read that too. Maybe they prefer a pick in the high 20's to Grant. Apparently the only sticking point with Carlton at the moment is pick 28 or 29.

[Mofra]

Herald Sun chat site stating that the Lions are super-keen on Grant apparently.
Makes the Docherty situation a little more interesting

[ledge]

Just heard we got Docherty but not verified

[LostDoggy]

Just heard we got Docherty but not verified

Wow.

[ledge]

No I sorry I'm hearing a Sam Darley, never heard of him

[LostDoggy]

No I sorry I'm hearing a Sam Darley, never heard of him

GWS midfielder/defender, think he might have been one of their 17 year old selections.

[LostDoggy]

Darley was not too bad (as a rookie pick up in Supercoach lol)

[Mofra]

GWS midfielder/defender, think he might have been one of their 17 year old selections.
Gun junior - won the u18 medal for best player in division 2.
We're really heading into moneyball territory last year and this year

[LostDoggy]

Gun junior - won the u18 medal for best player in division 2.
We're really heading into moneyball territory last year and this year

I like it!

[1eyedog]

Gun junior - won the u18 medal for best player in division 2.
We're really heading into moneyball territory last year and this year

Wasn't that a 2nd Division Tassie league though?

[w3design]

[QUOTE=ledge;351691]No I sorry I'm hearing a Sam Darley, never heard of him[/QUOTE

Where did you hear this Sam Darley news please.

[w3design]

Wasn't that a 2nd Division Tassie league though?

No it was the 2nd division of the state champs including Tassie / NT /NSW/ACT AND QLD.

[Mofra]

If we do get Darley, I'd much prefer to keep Grant and miss out on Docherty.
Docherty is good but it's a marginal call - and Darley looks like he'll play the same role.

[The Underdog]

If we do get Darley, I'd much prefer to keep Grant and miss out on Docherty.
Docherty is good but it's a marginal call - and Darley looks like he'll play the same role.

I think we've already missed out on Docherty. If Carlton and Brisbane are haggling about one spot in the draft, it'll get done.

[GVGjr]

If we do get Darley, I'd much prefer to keep Grant and miss out on Docherty.
Docherty is good but it's a marginal call - and Darley looks like he'll play the same role.

I think our chances of convincing Docherty to come to us is very low. It's best for us to focus on someone like Darley

[Remi Moses]

I think our chances of convincing Docherty to come to us is very low. It's best for us to focus on someone like Darley

Have to be some chance with this Mexican Stand off with Carlton.

[The Doctor]

Have to be some chance with this Mexican Stand off with Carlton.

Yep

Time to get aggressive. if we want him let's get him. We've got the right compensation for the Lions, we just need to work on the player. We all know he wants to come home we just need to convince him we are the better option.

[jeemak]

We've said we're going to be relatively non-aggressive during this trade period, so I can't see us tabling 22-25 for Crameri (whatever it ends up being) and taking it off the table for Docherty.

That says to me we've got draft picks in mind as our priority, again for list fulfillment.

[LostDoggy]

Would keep Spindle now that it seems the penny has dropped that he understands and has bought into Maccas mantra of every player doing there bit for the team at any sacrifice

[chef]

Yep

Time to get aggressive. if we want him let's get him. We've got the right compensation for the Lions, we just need to work on the player. We all know he wants to come home we just need to convince him we are the better option.

Maybe we already are by offering Grant?

[stefoid]

If the coaching staff has no faith in Grant then we will probably end up with a Brisbane 2nd rounder.

[ledge]

I think the most frustrating thing with Grant is we all know he has the X factor but he hasn't been consistant in the basics except for the last 6 weeks, it's got to the stage where the club is in a catch 22 do we trade him while he has some value and he goes on to be an awesome player or disappears into the abiss or do we keep him hoping he becomes the great player we see in him.
It seems to be all in the head with him from what im reading and we aren't sure if his head has finally clicked or ever will.

[Mofra]

If the coaching staff has no faith in Grant then we will probably end up with a Brisbane 2nd rounder.
The plan may be to use that pick on Mitch Thorp - taller, can run, similar age - it would effetively be a straight swap.

We may be demanding 28 ahead of 29 as Carlton may plan to grab Thorpe with 28 if they keep it.

[mighty_west]

I think the most frustrating thing with Grant is we all know he has the X factor but he hasn't been consistant in the basics except for the last 6 weeks, it's got to the stage where the club is in a catch 22 do we trade him while he has some value and he goes on to be an awesome player or disappears into the abiss or do we keep him hoping he becomes the great player we see in him.
It seems to be all in the head with him from what im reading and we aren't sure if his head has finally clicked or ever will.

Whilst I'd prefer to keep Grant given the x-factor about him and being a hard match up, I wonder though if his game or mentally strong enough for the riggers of intense high pressured finals footy? I guess that's what the footy department have to weigh up.

[Remi Moses]

Maybe we already are by offering Grant?

Could be the case .
Gotta wonder what's holding that deal up

[1eyedog]

Whilst I'd prefer to keep Grant given the x-factor about him and being a hard match up, I wonder though if his game or mentally strong enough for the riggers of intense high pressured finals footy? I guess that's what the footy department have to weigh up.

And Docherty does? We know very little about him after only 13 games.

[mighty_west]

And Docherty does? We know very little about him after only 13 games.

I thought Docherty was off to Carlton?

[1eyedog]

I thought Docherty was off to Carlton?

Probably is, but didn't we potentially offer up Grant as a swap at some stage? I guess what I'm trying to say is that for mine Docherty is just as much an unknown as Grant in terms of how he may benefit the club in the future.

[The Underdog]

I thought Docherty was off to Carlton?

According to the Lions list manager, it pretty much is, they're waiting for some other deals to go through before the pick is confirmed.
I get the feeling once the Shaw/Adams deal gets done and the FA compo picks come through then deals will start to be confirmed.