When to pull the panic lever to the supporter base?

[bulldogtragic]

You can say now, 5 years or never, but I'm interested. What I mean more specifically is a call from the club that things are bad and without an increase in memberships things will end either

A) badly
B) semi relocation
C) in a constant cycle where we exist on to fill an opposition team for clubs with members, and who turn out

From a sponsorship and branding excerise, you can't do this often. From the boy who cried woof perspective, it's a single bullet too.

But for me, I'm getting concerned, really concerned. While we in our woof bubble give freely, from say 1994 onwards we are losing 20% of our base annually. At our peak 5 years ago, we were low 30k for 3 pre-lims (ie we have no members to come out of the woodwork when the cycle turns), and have fallen savagely since. The only time I can recall a spike was fight back.

On top of that equalisation, profit sharing, whatever obviously factors us merely necessitating the need for an opposition team. I heard the NFL owners quote used last week, ie " well we need someone to play". This thinking is like being told as a chicken you will get fame and cash being included in the tiger enclosure at the zoo. I don't believe what the powers that be think equalisation is, is what us die hard doggies people think it is.

From there, we have been so nomadic with the games we have sold there's no firm base in any if the places we've been and now we move to FNQ.

The season has ended, debt still there, another loss and we've got to find another 5,000 members to make up for the ones who won't resign. And my hunch is it will be higher owing to the poor fixture, especially with higher level memberships. Not to mention while we are happy our revenues are up, there is this:

"The Dogs increased revenue by $1.3 million this year to $34 million - a figure dwarfed by the results of competition powerhouses Collingwood ($75 million) and Hawthorn ($64 million)."

I'm not saying anything other than we have one silver bullet in the chamber (the desperate help call) and we get it once at full penetration. Are we near needing to use it, or do things need to get worse?

For me it's now. My logic is if you wait too long in a tail spin to pull out, then it's all the harder to do it. I don't want to voluntarily sell 6 or 7 games to Tassie and maybe a call to the supporter base might stave it off. If they don't come out, then we go. One future includes us simply being an opposition so the big clubs have a spread of opponents to play on Sunday Twilights to fill the TV commitments. Even then how long does that really remain viable??

Please be rational.

[boydogs]

Please be rational.

That would require not panicing when there is nothing to panic about.

[wimberga]

But for me, I'm getting concerned, really concerned. While we in our woof bubble give freely, from say 1994 onwards we are losing 20% of our base annually. At our peak 5 years ago, we were low 30k for 3 pre-lims (ie we have no members to come out of the woodwork when the cycle turns), and have fallen savagely since. The only time I can recall a spike was fight back.



I heard Peter Gordon on Radio this year saying that if every single person who was a bulldogs supporter over the last 3 years signed up for a membership next year, we would have approximately 65,000 members. That's alot of upside it certainly means that the supporters are there. I don't believe that we need to use a "silver bullet" to get them to join up.

[bulldogtragic]

Perhaps my ability to communicate is being impaired by my medicine. I am not saying panic. Not at all.

What I am trying to say, is at some point we might, can, may, possibly consider the option which is in a glass case marked, open on emergency with a little hammer. This option is to hit the bulldogs supporter base with a serious join now in the style of fight back, ie playing for sheep stations. As mentioned, there are more ex-members than members. This contingency, option or 'silver bullet' is just sitting there. But it is an option, if needed and considered necessary. I'm not advocating use right now necessarily.

What I'm asking more over, is that we can only use it successfully once, and from that we need to sling shot upwards in trajectory. It's a one shot strategy. Are circumstances currently or in the near future such we try this on the wider supporter base, or do we leave it in reserve and continue on?

[Ghost Dog]

I heard Peter Gordon on Radio this year saying that if every single person who was a bulldogs supporter over the last 3 years signed up for a membership next year, we would have approximately 65,000 members. That's alot of upside it certainly means that the supporters are there. I don't believe that we need to use a "silver bullet" to get them to join up.

Makes you want to sign up straight away doesn't it!
Is it just me or do I find the process of getting a membership totally ungratifying?
There are just a lot of hiccups with it, just because it's done by an outsourcing company.

[LostDoggy]

Makes you want to sign up straight away doesn't it!
Is it just me or do I find the process of getting a membership totally ungratifying?
There are just a lot of hiccups with it, just because it's done by an outsourcing company.

Just renewed mine online and made changes - added social club and a couple of others areas. HEAPS better than last year. Even got a confirmation email which is a step forward.

I like the option of ringing member services if you need help which I don't think you could do last year either.

BDT - you've alluded to being unwell on a few posts recently. All the best mate - I enjoy your posts and hope you are on the up!! Might need to rewatch some of last years wins - the carlton game might help a little abit anyway:) But seriously - hope all is ok.

[bornadog]

Makes you want to sign up straight away doesn't it!
Is it just me or do I find the process of getting a membership totally ungratifying?
There are just a lot of hiccups with it, just because it's done by an outsourcing company.

Its just you.

I am on auto renewal and don't have to worry about a thing. Every month an amount is deducted from my credit card and the only time there is an issue is when the expirey date on the credit card comes up and then the club calls me.

Membership department is all in house now. (I think from last year)

[Bulldog4life]

Its just you.

I am on auto renewal and don't have to worry about a thing. Every month an amount is deducted from my credit card and the only time there is an issue is when the expirey date on the credit card comes up and then the club calls me.

Membership department is all in house now. (I think from last year)

Ditto. It is so simple this way.

[bulldogtragic]

Just renewed mine online and made changes - added social club and a couple of others areas. HEAPS better than last year. Even got a confirmation email which is a step forward.

I like the option of ringing member services if you need help which I don't think you could do last year either.

BDT - you've alluded to being unwell on a few posts recently. All the best mate - I enjoy your posts and hope you are on the up!! Might need to rewatch some of last years wins - the carlton game might help a little abit anyway:) But seriously - hope all is ok.
Thanks SD, always nice to hear nice things especially when crook. Seems I'm just in a cycle of big operations and now add on issues, but then hopefully I get a few years run again and then repeat. Just the hand I'm dealt, spending enough time around ICU/HDU etc and you quickly realise that things could be worse. But thanks for thoughts, it means a lot.

Now to the thread! I watched that game a few weeks ago, I think that was one of fav's for a while now. I'm not down hearted on the onfield stuff at all, I'm a believer! , I've just reached my threshold of concern on the perplexing nature of bulldogs members not to re-sign. Especially, in my case (which might taint me) where my extended bulldogs supporting family and old man especially will happily take donated 3 game memberships but not renew themselves the following year, despite loving going and telling everyone they're members... I just don't get the disconnect. The North side of my family are fanatical members, my brother doesn't earn much but still does the player sponsor thing for the lesser known players. So I've given up on them and got 18 tickets in for under privileged kids next year, there's more chance of one of them signing up!

So I've been musing for a while, do we keep on keeping on, or mount a fight back or Hawthorn style Dicker/Scott charge like an adrenalin needle to the supporter base. Not sure in my own head, hence I thought if ask pro's and con's, do we need it or would it work? because as far as I see it, you only get one shot at doing it.

[boydogs]

Are circumstances currently or in the near future such we try this on the wider supporter base, or do we leave it in reserve and continue on?

It has to be believable BT. A $150k loss in the midst of setting up Edgewater and our VFL side, in the middle of a rebuild, with a footy department spend over $1m more than the previous year, contrasted with Melbourne and Essendon losing millions, and we go to the public saying sign up or we're folding?

[jeemak]

I just posted in the financial's thread, that we need to be really sure we understand the reasons why supporters don't resign on a yearly basis, before we strategise how we can get them back.

There isn't a magic bullet, and the club as gogriff has said isn't close to being at a stage where panic levers need to be pulled.

The club needs to grind its way through each portion of the membership base (and non-member) and find out exactly what makes them love the Bulldogs, what makes them attend games/buy memberships, not attend games/buy memberships etc, whilst finding out what attracts new members and supporters.

If done properly, a thorough and painstaking exercise in the above will reap long term rewards for the club. Short term thinking will not take us where we need to go when it comes to sustaining a long term membership base.

[Bulldog4life]

I just posted in the financial's thread, that we need to be really sure we understand the reasons why supporters don't resign on a yearly basis, before we strategise how we can get them back.

There isn't a magic bullet, and the club as gogriff has said isn't close to being at a stage where panic levers need to be pulled.

The club needs to grind its way through each portion of the membership base (and non-member) and find out exactly what makes them love the Bulldogs, what makes them attend games/buy memberships, not attend games/buy memberships etc, whilst finding out what attracts new members and supporters.

If done properly, a thorough and painstaking exercise in the above will reap long term rewards for the club. Short term thinking will not take us where we need to go when it comes to sustaining a long term membership base.

Yes agree it would be great if we know.

[LostDoggy]

I'm totally comfortable with where we are at. Turning a mild loss into a small profit is an irrelevant goal for where the club needs to get to.

Sustained success - that's the aim.

Sustained onfield success will lead to sustainable off-field profit.

The AFL have handicaped our ability to run a standard budget. How do you run a business where:

Salaries and wages are largely mandated and capped due to the AFLPA salary agreement
Outgoing fixed rents are mandated and capped due to the crap stadium deal the AFL agrees to and our club has to pay for.
Our ability to showcase new and exciting entertainment options is mandated and capped - no Anzac Day, no prime games, no showcase games
Our ability to attract new audiences and revenue streams is stimied and capped by both the TV rights agreement and minimum free to air coverage and our consistent programming of crappy Sunday twilight games.

$145k loss?? Could have easily been $2.5million. Melbourne have proved that aweful management will deliver that sort of horrid result continuously. Think our board is bloody excellent frankly.

EQUALISATION. Eddie McGuire can bite my rear end
EQUALISATION. So can Collo and his stinking stadium deal
EQUALISATION. Give us a level playing field and watch this team soar.
EQUALISATION. Stuff Tasmania - the west needs representation.

E-Q-U-A-L-I-S-A-T-I-O-N

It's the only way AFL will survive as the premium game in 30 years. Soccer will eat these idiots at AFL house if they don't fix this rubbish.

[bornadog]

Off the field the club is in the strongest position it has ever been.

Just take a look at now compared to 1996 when we almost collapsed:

* State of the art training facilities
* Renovation of buildings with great facilities for administration coaches, a museum, a cafe and theatre for the players etc

* A great sports hall that earns revenue
* Child Care Centre
* Debt the lowest its ever been
* Bigger spend on the football department than previous years
* Our own team in the VFL
* Plans to build a new social club and events venue (Edgetwater)
* Professionally run club with great administration, great President and a top Board of Directors

We now need to have some on field success and then build membership and make the Western Region our own.

[bulldogtragic]

Off the field the club is in the strongest position it has ever been.

Just take a look at now compared to 1996 when we almost collapsed:

* State of the art training facilities
* Renovation of buildings with great facilities for administration coaches, a museum, a cafe and theatre for the players etc

* A great sports hall that earns revenue
* Child Care Centre
* Debt the lowest its ever been
* Bigger spend on the football department than previous years
* Our own team in the VFL
* Plans to build a new social club and events venue (Edgetwater)
* Professionally run club with great administration, great President and a top Board of Directors

We now need to have some on field success and then build membership and make the Western Region our own.
Agree, onfield and most off field things are very exciting. No arguments from me at all. But if this doesn't bring back the flock, something more radical has to be done.

My concern is we are in a infinite loop with members signing and dropping away, year in and year out. Has been for a decade.

[bornadog]

Agree, onfield and most off field things are very exciting. No arguments from me at all. But if this doesn't bring back the flock, something more radical has to be done.

My concern is we are in a infinite loop with members signing and dropping away, year in and year out. Has been for a decade.

As I said in another thread, I believe the only way to bring back the flock is to have onfield success, playing finals footy and getting into a grand final and then winning the big one.

Our fans are fickle, you just have to lkook at attendances. The 2006 elimination final v Collingwood saw our second biggest crowd EVER and it wasn't just Collingwood fans. The ground was full of RWB

[bulldogtragic]

As I said in another thread, I believe the only way to bring back the flock is to have onfield success, playing finals footy and getting into a grand final and then winning the big one.

Our fans are fickle, you just have to lkook at attendances. The 2006 elimination final v Collingwood saw our second biggest crowd EVER and it wasn't just Collingwood fans. The ground was full of RWB
It's a fine theory. My concern is that after 3 pre-lims, and the memberships boosts we got out of Aker and Barry Hall the best we got to was 32k (from memory) 5 years ago.

I think our supporter base is unique. I don't think we have 15,000 waiting to come out of the woodwork.

We are maintaining 30,000 (+\- 10%), but we are losing 5,000 members for every 5,000 members we are signing each year. I don't think any other club has circumstances such as ours. So (whilst I am in the vast minority) I think we need a different approach, maybe it's we need you or we go to Tassie for 6 games, or another type of road block in their thinking to elicit a membership renewal. I'm not saying I have the answers here, but I am enjoying the discussions.

[mighty_west]

Our fans are fickle, you just have to lkook at attendances. The 2006 elimination final v Collingwood saw our second biggest crowd EVER and it wasn't just Collingwood fans. The ground was full of RWB

That's THE most enjoyable day at the footy I've ever experienced, apart from being a final v the biggest club in Australia and winning but sitting amongst over 80,000 at the G and not being a pro Collingwood crowd, our noise from our supporters was incredible.

The fickle bit, it's sad that supporters pretty much hold the club to ransom depending on how we are travelling, seemed like every man and his dog scrambled to become a social club member when pressing in 2008, yet MANY drop off when things get tough, on that reason alone I think is quite weak imo.

[soupman]

The fickle bit, it's sad that supporters pretty much hold the club to ransom depending on how we are travelling, seemed like every man and his dog scrambled to become a social club member when pressing in 2008, yet MANY drop off when things get tough, on that reason alone I think is quite weak imo.

I'm really hoping that those of us who have stayed with the club throughout get rewarded somehow. Would hate to see a scenario where first year members get GF tickets ahead of 15 year members.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm really hoping that those of us who have stayed with the club throughout get rewarded somehow. Would hate to see a scenario where first year members get GF tickets ahead of 15 year members.
Maybe this is a trigger point.

I also really like the Hawthorn scarves which have the numbers of years as a member. My wife treasures hers to bits.

[Webby]

I don't really accept that Dogs fans are fickle. When you're talking in thousands of people, there's a big multiplier effect. I'll be signing up again for next year, but I've got to say that my strong number 1 preference for going to the footy is Saturday afternoon. My second choice is Friday night and my third choice is Saturday night.... I believe that my Dogs membership will buy me a grand total of ONE home game on either of my two preferred slots and ONE for my third choice time..

Before all the diehards jump on me and give me the "I go interstate and you should sacrifice for your club, you're selfish, narcissistic" etc. my point is that over 10, 20, 30 thousand people, value judgements will be made on discretionary expenditure. And like it or not, accessibility, family commitments and simple convenience come into it.... When you're talking thousands of people.

I'm pretty sure my preferred football going times align reasonably closely with the bulk of the broader population. Look at how many Fri night and Saturday slots a Collingwood or Hawthorn membership provides for equivalent money. I'm not suggesting anyone'd switch clubs as a result of this, but it certainly impacts on the ratio of "barracker to member conversions". As we're already a smaller club, the 'graveyard' slots that we're asked to fill (to assist the AFL's TV and stadium deals) exacerbate the issue. Not to mention sponsorship exposure etc!

Sure the AFL give us compensation in the form of equalisation funding, but make no mistake, we damn well earn it and we damn well deserve it!!' That makes it all the more galling when the Eddie McGuires of the world run their mouths about the larger clubs 'propping' smaller clubs up.

Don't be too down on our 'fickle' supporters. I'm tipping that there'd be a large proportion of Dogs fans who are AFL members who nominate WBFC as their club. When we climb the ladder (which we will), we'll get more Fridays and Saturdays and the membership will swell. I don't think it's necessarily all a 'glory hunter' scenario. I think Friday nights and Saturday afternoons are simply more accessible to the broader population - particularly for families and rural supporters.

This is the reason why the smaller clubs like us are perennially up against it. I don't think we should get down on ourselves for this or start labelling ourselves as fickle.

[Greystache]

Don't be too down on our 'fickle' supporters. I'm tipping that there'd be a large proportion of Dogs fans who are AFL members who nominate WBFC as their club. When we climb the ladder (which we will), we'll get more Fridays and Saturdays and the membership will swell. I don't think it's necessarily all a 'glory hunter' scenario. I think Friday nights and Saturday afternoons are simply more accessible to the broader population - particularly for families and rural supporters.

This is the reason why the smaller clubs like us are perennially up against it. I don't think we should get down on ourselves for this or start labelling ourselves as fickle.

The Western Bulldogs have 1,475 AFL members, the lowest number of all Victorian clubs. Collingwood has the most with 14,500. All AFL members get counted in their nominated club's official membership total.

[bulldogtragic]

Statistically, over the last 7 years we have more immediate ex-members than the 2013 membership tally. And (I think) the lowest AFL members.

There should be no defence for this, because if this indifference to membership continues, we get closer to things getting worse. Which is a shame as I'm excited about things as much as I can remember, so if you can't re-sign now, then when will they ever?

[Webby]

I'll wear the AFL Membership stat, but I think my basic point on the value. Take emotion and allegiance out of it and the WBFC membership represents the lowest value of any club. Perhaps equal lowest.

This is not a dig at the club, but a dig at the AFL. Look purely on the paper specification of the product for a moment. A WBFC membership buys one Saturday afternoon game, one Saturday night game and nine graveyard shifts. And all at what is (IMO) the worst stadium in the league.

On those numbers (emotion removed), the actual product offers far less value than virtually any other membership. If you look at our games purely on time, opponent and venue, the most attractive games are Richmond (h), Essendon (a), Melbourne (away Sat arvo MCG), Bris (h), Collingwood (a). That's two genuinely appealing games that the membership buys someone who has family commitments and/or lives a good distance from Melbourne.

Compare that with Collingwood or Hawthorn and your talking both a perceived scarcity of seats, Saturday arvo and Friday night footy, the MCG and most likely finals tickets allocation.

So to say our supporters are any more fickle than other AFL clubs is (imo) a bit misplaced.

[bornadog]

I'll wear the AFL Membership stat, but I think my basic point on the value. Take emotion and allegiance out of it and the WBFC membership represents the lowest value of any club. Perhaps equal lowest.

This is not a dig at the club, but a dig at the AFL. Look purely on the paper specification of the product for a moment. A WBFC membership buys one Saturday afternoon game, one Saturday night game and nine graveyard shifts. And all at what is (IMO) the worst stadium in the league.

On those numbers (emotion removed), the actual product offers far less value than virtually any other membership. If you look at our games purely on time, opponent and venue, the most attractive games are Richmond (h), Essendon (a), Melbourne (away Sat arvo MCG), Bris (h), Collingwood (a). That's two genuinely appealing games that the membership buys someone who has family commitments and/or lives a good distance from Melbourne.

Compare that with Collingwood or Hawthorn and your talking both a perceived scarcity of seats, Saturday arvo and Friday night footy, the MCG and most likely finals tickets allocation.

So to say our supporters are any more fickle than other AFL clubs is (imo) a bit misplaced.

You are assuming (as many fickle supporters do), that membership to our club is purely for going to games. How about thinking of a membership as belonging to a club, being part of a club, not just a ticket to the footy.

I firmly believe this is what we should be aiming to push. If every Collingwood member turned up to games, no one else could get into any ground (other than MCG). I believe their members just want to be part of the club.

[Murphy'sLore]

I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle, as a recent AFL and Bulldogs convert. Our club has had ONE premiership and that was barely within living memory. Frankly I'm amazed that we have any members at all.

[LostDoggy]

As someone who is able to attend 1-3 games a year, I don't hesitate to buy a membership every year (not blowing my own trumpet). As a member who relies on watching games on tv, I'd have to say that our time slots are atrocious also for the tv viewing fan or member. I believe our exposure to potential members is extremely limited due to these piss poor fixtures we're given. I'm lucky and don't have family responsibilities but I could imagine that many people would struggle to get free time to sit down at 4.40pm on a Sunday and watch an entire game of footy.

[LostDoggy]

I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle, as a recent AFL and Bulldogs convert. Our club has had ONE premiership and that was barely within living memory. Frankly I'm amazed that we have any members at all.

That's one of the binding things about our sport. Diehards have a flame that burns inside driven by hope and faith that one day our team will win the ultimate prize. Footy infects you with a virus that many people carry for life.

[Murphy'sLore]

That's one of the binding things about our sport. Diehards have a flame that burns inside driven by hope and faith that one day our team will win the ultimate prize. Footy infects you with a virus that many people carry for life.

I actually think loyalty is one of the strengths of our club, not one of its weaknesses.

[LostDoggy]

I actually think loyalty is one of the strengths of our club, not one of its weaknesses.

Couldn't agree more. Without our loyalty we would have died a long time ago. I love this club and it's a feeling I can't possibly explain with words.

[Webby]

You are assuming (as many fickle supporters do), that membership to our club is purely for going to games. How about thinking of a membership as belonging to a club, being part of a club, not just a ticket to the footy.

I firmly believe this is what we should be aiming to push. If every Collingwood member turned up to games, no one else could get into any ground (other than MCG). I believe their members just want to be part of the club.

This is the response I anticipated. As I said, when one talks broader populations it's more of a human nature question. Sure there are many diehard supporters, but as Paul Keating once said (I think repeating Whitlam) "Always back the horse called Self Interest." By this he didn't mean that everyone is selfish, he simply meant that broader population trends and behaviours are influenced by personal circumstances and preferences. Value is interrogated far more closely by those of a lower disposable income demographic. Which end of upper and lower income demographics do you think the Sogs' supporter base is skewed towards?

I did emphasise in my post the words "removing emotion." Of course there are a large element of people who buy memberships for a feeling of belonging. However amongst tens of thousands of people, there will always be a variety of drivers. So I'm simply raising the point that, purely on paper, with all things being equal, the WBFC membership ticket offers poor time slots, a poor venue, most likely no finals ticket priority, and very little seat supply scarcity.

True to form, however, I receive a barb not too subtly implying that, I myself, am fickle. Particularly from someone I've previously found to be uber-sensitive to even a sniff of 'personal stuff', I find this quite disappointing.

So I'll throw in a new point whilst I'm at it. I'll put it out there that the element of the self-righteous "I'm more Bulldog than you and you and you" and the "Where were you when we weren't any good?" Element that has reared it's head at ES from time to time, (not looking at you, BAD) could be a reason why a number of Dogs supporters might prefer to stay home and watch on television instead. Perhaps our supporters should reflect on our own attitudes and how welcoming or otherwise we are towards new faces at ES? Just a thought.

[bornadog]

I actually think loyalty is one of the strengths of our club, not one of its weaknesses.


Couldn't agree more. Without our loyalty we would have died a long time ago. I love this club and it's a feeling I can't possibly explain with words.

Couldn't agree more, but we have to build the membership or we will end up like Fitzroy who only had a few die-hards left.

The real concern for the club is Melbourne's population is now $4.2 million up from $2.8 in the 80's yet our membership base seemingly has not grown that way. Ok, Membership has grown from 12,000 in 1995 to about 30,000 now, but these are small numbers when you think Melbourne has added $1.5 million people. We are still around .7% of the total Melbourne population, up from 0.6% - in other words we have made no real inroads into growing the membership base.

[bornadog]

This is the response I anticipated. As I said, when one talks broader populations it's more of a human nature question. Sure there are many diehard supporters, but as Paul Keating once said (I think repeating Whitlam) "Always back the horse called Self Interest." By this he didn't mean that everyone is selfish, he simply meant that broader population trends and behaviours are influenced by personal circumstances and preferences. Value is interrogated far more closely by those of a lower disposable income demographic. Which end of upper and lower income demographics do you think the Sogs' supporter base is skewed towards?

I did emphasise in my post the words "removing emotion." Of course there are a large element of people who buy memberships for a feeling of belonging. However amongst tens of thousands of people, there will always be a variety of drivers. So I'm simply raising the point that, purely on paper, with all things being equal, the WBFC membership ticket offers poor time slots, a poor venue, most likely no finals ticket priority, and very little seat supply scarcity.

True to form, however, I receive a barb not too subtly implying that, I myself, am fickle. Particularly from someone I've previously found to be uber-sensitive to even a sniff of 'personal stuff', I find this quite disappointing.

So I'll throw in a new point whilst I'm at it. I'll put it out there that the element of the self-righteous "I'm more Bulldog than you and you and you" and the "Where were you when we weren't any good?" Element that has reared it's head at ES from time to time, (not looking at you, BAD) could be a reason why a number of Dogs supporters might prefer to stay home and watch on television instead. Perhaps our supporters should reflect on our own attitudes and how welcoming or otherwise we are towards new faces at ES? Just a thought.

Webby, don't get me wrong, I agree with you. You have hit the nail on the end on why people prefer to not buy a membership. (BTW - wasn't calling you fickle and no personal stuff intended, just agreeing with your point about fickle supporters).

I was trying to make a point about an alternate reason to buying a membership, after all it costs less than 54 cents per day for a home game membership.

[Greystache]

Statistically, over the last 7 years we have more immediate ex-members than the 2013 membership tally. And (I think) the lowest AFL members.

There should be no defence for this, because if this indifference to membership continues, we get closer to things getting worse. Which is a shame as I'm excited about things as much as I can remember, so if you can't re-sign now, then when will they ever?

I think people could a bit caught up in that statistic, and we see it mentioned regularly, but I don't think it can be relied upon.

The membership database has never been especially well maintained and I have seen many examples where paid up members get contacted about not renewing their memberships. Which no doubt means they'll be captured in the non-renewed member statistic. I can understand the club releases that figure as a way of rousing the troops, but I do not for one second think it's accurate. If I was to guess I would say we have one of the most stable and loyal membership bases in the AFL, we just don't have enough of them.

[bulldogtragic]

I think people could a bit caught up in that statistic, and we see it mentioned regularly, but I don't think it can be relied upon.

The membership database has never been especially well maintained and I have seen many examples where paid up members get contacted about not renewing their memberships. Which no doubt means they'll be captured in the non-renewed member statistic. I can understand the club releases that figure as a way of rousing the troops, but I do not for one second think it's accurate. If I was to guess I would say we have one of the most stable and loyal membership bases in the AFL, we just don't have enough of them.
I recall getting a similar stat at a private function (my dear old mum got me into) with Cam Rose, I think it might have been 2006?

Ie, he said 5,000 to 7,000 fail to renew every year. From recent comments, and on Peter Gordon's comments, I think that's still the case??

[bornadog]

Year Membership Numbers

2013 29,641
2012 30,007
2011 29,710
2010 32,077
2009 28,215
2008 28,306
2007 28,725
2006 26,042
2005 21,974
2004 19,295
2003 21,260
2002 20,838
2001 19,085
2000 18,056
1999 20,491
1998 20,064
1997 15,054
1996 10,650
1995 12,212

[Greystache]

I recall getting a similar stat at a private function (my dear old mum got me into) with Cam Rose, I think it might have been 2006?

Ie, he said 5,000 to 7,000 fail to renew every year. From recent comments, and on Peter Gordon's comments, I think that's still the case??

That stat is based on the membership database. If I have 5 duplicate profiles, and they renew my membership to a different one each year, I as one continuously paid up member can be counted as 4 non-renewed members in a period of 4 years. The statistic is correct, but the data used to create the statistic is wrong.

[Murphy'sLore]

God knows I'm not a numbers person, but those figures look fairly stable to me?

A big spike in 98, another one in 2006, both related to on field success. And those numbers haven't dropped off to any significant degree.

On the face of it, it looks pretty straightforward. Play attractive football, win some games, get into the mix, and the people will jump on board. Surely it can't be that simple?

[LostDoggy]

I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle, as a recent AFL and Bulldogs convert. Our club has had ONE premiership and that was barely within living memory. Frankly I'm amazed that we have any members at all.

Only those aged 60 ish plus will the '54 Cup actually be in living memory. The vast majority of our 30,000 members have never seen one. It's sad, yet astounding and speaks volumes about how resilient our club and membership base actually is.../

[bulldogtragic]

God knows I'm not a numbers person, but those figures look fairly stable to me?

A big spike in 98, another one in 2006, both related to on field success. And those numbers haven't dropped off to any significant degree.

On the face of it, it looks pretty straightforward. Play attractive football, win some games, get into the mix, and the people will jump on board. Surely it can't be that simple?
It's not. At the peak of our powers, pre-lims, Aker, Baz the best we could muster was 32,000, that's half of what say Collingwood was. I don't accept our supporter base is 50% smaller.

[Murphy'sLore]

It's not. At the peak of our powers, pre-lims, Aker, Baz the best we could muster was 32,000, that's half of what say Collingwood was. I don't accept our supporter base is 50% smaller.

Why not? Genuine question.

[bornadog]

It's not. At the peak of our powers, pre-lims, Aker, Baz the best we could muster was 32,000, that's half of what say Collingwood was. I don't accept our supporter base is 50% smaller.

I agree, I think we should have at least 40,000 signed up members.

Come on people, get on board.

[bornadog]

Why not? Genuine question.

Facebook page has 40,000:D

[Murphy'sLore]

Facebook page has 40,000:D

Fair point, still it's a lot easier to click 'like' than put your hand in your pocket.

[bornadog]

Fair point, still it's a lot easier to click 'like' than put your hand in your pocket.

and that is the problem.

Just checked there are over 58,000 likes.

[Greystache]

It's not. At the peak of our powers, pre-lims, Aker, Baz the best we could muster was 32,000, that's half of what say Collingwood was. I don't accept our supporter base is 50% smaller.

I would say our supporter base is about 80% smaller.

Collingwood has an absolutely enormous passive supporter base, you only needed to see how many 20 year old scarves came out of mothballs when they made back-to-back Grand Finals. The amount of people who barrack for Collingwood I met that had never mentioned football until GF week was ridiculous, and none of them had been to a game in the past decade.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I'll wear the AFL Membership stat, but I think my basic point on the value. Take emotion and allegiance out of it and the WBFC membership represents the lowest value of any club. Perhaps equal lowest.

This is not a dig at the club, but a dig at the AFL. Look purely on the paper specification of the product for a moment. A WBFC membership buys one Saturday afternoon game, one Saturday night game and nine graveyard shifts. And all at what is (IMO) the worst stadium in the league.

On those numbers (emotion removed), the actual product offers far less value than virtually any other membership. If you look at our games purely on time, opponent and venue, the most attractive games are Richmond (h), Essendon (a), Melbourne (away Sat arvo MCG), Bris (h), Collingwood (a). That's two genuinely appealing games that the membership buys someone who has family commitments and/or lives a good distance from Melbourne.

Compare that with Collingwood or Hawthorn and your talking both a perceived scarcity of seats, Saturday arvo and Friday night footy, the MCG and most likely finals tickets allocation.

So to say our supporters are any more fickle than other AFL clubs is (imo) a bit misplaced.

Valid points Webby, but to my mind the most critical has been the lack of Premiership success. Stronger membership based clubs in Melbourne, such as Hawthorn Carlton Essendon and Collingwood have all enjoyed considerably more success. Melbourne St Kilda and the Western Bulldogs through lack of success continue to struggle for new members and finances. Our poor draw as you point out is a major issue with families reluctant to commit to so many twilight games. Our future growth is likely to come from the Western region in developing suburbs like Melton Caroline Springs Werribee Hoppers Crossing extending to Sunbury and Gisborne. Hawthorn by playing in 7 consecetive Grand Finals in the 70s and 80s captured the imagination of the wider Eastern Suburbs and our best hope IMO is to see something similar occur out West. It is a huge task but not impossible.

[bulldogtragic]

and that is the problem.

Just checked there are over 58,000 likes.
Amen.

And it's only going to get harder as Sunday Twilight specialists.

The equalisation that's going to happen, is not what I hoped it to be. It will be cash perhaps, but nothing about draws and ability for more exposure which brings in sponsors and members, my fear (irrational or not) is that the AFL needs 18 teams and rich big clubs need to play others than just the other big clubs because if they could it would be boring. So we could just become an 'opposition' to make 9 games happen every week.

Things are so bloody good right now, even the biggest pessimist must be happy with the hope for things. But if supporters don't become members in greater numbers then we are always behind the 8 ball. Hence the thread, how do we break this cycle and ramp our membership.

[Greystache]

and that is the problem.

Just checked there are over 58,000 likes.

Collingwood has 246,000 Likes. Facebook means *!*!*!*! all

[bornadog]

Collingwood has 246,000 Likes. Facebook means *!*!*!*! all

No doubt they are massive.

[bornadog]

how do we break this cycle and ramp our membership.

Premiership after Premiership that will do it.

[bulldogtragic]

Premiership after Premiership that will do it.
And what happens when people forget the premierships like in Brisbane 5 years after. Their membership goes on life support.

That said, premiership after premiership would be nice.

I think we should angle our call for members around the notion of "I was a member when...." Ie lots of sentences etc, "you can look back in pride and say, when Ryan Griffen had a 50 possession 5 goal game in round 1 2014. When Libba Junior won the brownlow in 2015, I was a member. When Bobby Murphy broke Brad Johnson's game record, I was a member. When Brendan McCartney was picked out if obscurity, I was a member. When we won the premiership in 2016, I was a member. So when all these things add up to a premiership, you will know you were an integral party of the journey. So join the journey, be part of the rise, be part of the premiership, and know that the sweetest part of the premiership was taking the journey as a fully fledged western bulldogs member. Join the journey, join the bulldogs, let's together get this premiership."

Or a video of highlights of premierships, great games, iconic events, brownlows, Teddy, Granty etc, cut individually with existing members saying "I was a member when this happened on our journey". Then cut to Dahl and other exciting players and direct to the viewer say "the journey is getting more exciting, become a member - insert exciting video package - so when our destiny is written, you can say, I took the journey member ( or I was a member when...) exciting video to finish, or passion plea??

I know it's too long and sappy, this was off the top of my head. This strategy may have been tried and failed. I don't mind #gatherthepack , but to me I interpret it as existing members who are the 'pack' gathering. I don't see the pitch to get new members. As just stated, I'd pitch joining the journey so when we get the ultimate success you can say you were there all along. It's a bit like the hobbit movies, it's the journey we want to watch no be a part of, if they get the ring or kill whoever or whatever that's a nice ending, but the journey is what gets us involved and believing in the script. The script being we will win a premiership. My alternate thought now is something witty about 'breeds' ie. because we are dogs. Have we done something about that bulldogs come in all sorts of breeds, the best breed of bulldog is a bulldog-member, or stuff about 'best in breed' and stuff.

Well I'm just rambling now, but this strikes a chord with me because for me it's the journey and when we win a premiership and the hangers on come, I can say to myself, I took the journey I was there when..l. , but alas I'm rambling again so I might check out another thread.

[Eastdog]

The Western Bulldogs have 1,475 AFL members, the lowest number of all Victorian clubs. Collingwood has the most with 14,500. All AFL members get counted in their nominated club's official membership total.

I'm currently on the MCC waiting list. I wonder how many MCC members are Western Bulldogs members or fans.

[Eastdog]

Valid points Webby, but to my mind the most critical has been the lack of Premiership success. Stronger membership based clubs in Melbourne, such as Hawthorn Carlton Essendon and Collingwood have all enjoyed considerably more success. Melbourne St Kilda and the Western Bulldogs through lack of success continue to struggle for new members and finances. Our poor draw as you point out is a major issue with families reluctant to commit to so many twilight games. Our future growth is likely to come from the Western region in developing suburbs like Melton Caroline Springs Werribee Hoppers Crossing extending to Sunbury and Gisborne. Hawthorn by playing in 7 consecetive Grand Finals in the 70s and 80s captured the imagination of the wider Eastern Suburbs and our best hope IMO is to see something similar occur out West. It is a huge task but not impossible.

Good post NBP but I think our growth should come from everywhere and not only the outer western corridor alone. When I take the train and tram from the Eastern suburbs I certainly in future years want to see more Bulldogs supporters. Going on the train from the Glen Waverley line to the Essendon match this year there were a lot of Essendon fans and only very few from us and they are a North West suburban club.

[Daughter of the West]

I don't mind #gatherthepack , but to me I interpret it as existing members who are the 'pack' gathering. I don't see the pitch to get new members.

That's quite interesting that you interpret #gatherthepack that way, as I thought of it in the opposite manner. Almost like a call to current members to go out and grab those friends and family who say that they follow the Bulldogs, but haven't actually done anything about it.

I don't think that there is one, big magic bullet that would sustainably lift our member tally, but a number of factors that add up. I think a premiership would help greatly, but then the success needs to be maintained afterwards (consistently making the top eight, ideally top four). Then the TV/prime time game exposure follows, then parents watch us and by default, their little kids do too. Then the kids go to kindergarten and prep after actually getting to see their team play on TV and our proud to tell their friends who they follow. They get to attend games because they're at a far more family friendly time. Imbed it in them early. Little kids love winners. Hell, big kids love winners.

I have a mate who "barracks" for the Bulldogs. Hasn't bought a membership for some time though. He maintains that he won't until we start performing. I can't get it through his thick skull that NOW is the time the club needs it's members the most. Not when all the bandwagoners jump on, but when times are tough. To help get us out of the tough place. But many, many people use football as their escapism, and who wants to spend their escape time being depressed about their football club, and spend money for the privilege?

[Webby]

Valid points Webby, but to my mind the most critical has been the lack of Premiership success. Stronger membership based clubs in Melbourne, such as Hawthorn Carlton Essendon and Collingwood have all enjoyed considerably more success. Melbourne St Kilda and the Western Bulldogs through lack of success continue to struggle for new members and finances. Our poor draw as you point out is a major issue with families reluctant to commit to so many twilight games. Our future growth is likely to come from the Western region in developing suburbs like Melton Caroline Springs Werribee Hoppers Crossing extending to Sunbury and Gisborne. Hawthorn by playing in 7 consecetive Grand Finals in the 70s and 80s captured the imagination of the wider Eastern Suburbs and our best hope IMO is to see something similar occur out West. It is a huge task but not impossible.

Absolutely the lack of success is the major issue. This is my point. The Dogs simply have a small fan base. We shouldn't turn on our own for this misplaced perception that we are a 'fickle' bunch with a massive latent supporter base! We have to build one over decades of success. I'd have thought that simply by following WBFC, one is immune from the 'fickle' tag! I never thought I'd hear it uttered about our own!

North Melbourne made 6 Grand Finals in the 1970s and 3 in the 90's. That earned them support. Even Sht Kilda have made 6 GF appearance since our last one. Then there's the countless Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood and Hawthorn GF appearances. I honestly believe that a lot of Melbourne FC parents lost their kids to Hawthorn in the 70'sand 80's. Success brings support... And we haven't had much if any!

There's nothing like a winning team to hook an average 5-6 year old! North no doubt converted a glut in the 70's and another bunch in the 90's. St Kilda had success upon relocating to Moorabbin in the 60's and nabbed a decent bunch. Hawthorn started a virtual revolution in the 1970's and 80's whilst Collingwood, Essendon and Carlton have just been Old Man Rivers - consistently rolling along successfully for 100 years.

The growth of the western suburbs, although helpful, is not a golden ticket. Kids in Caroline Springs and Point Cook largely follow the team that their mum or dad push onto them. And let's face it, those family decisions were made 70+ years ago! There's far more Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon mums and dads than there are Doggies mums and dads about the place!

So there's a multiplier effect as a result. The thing that bucks that trend and turns kids into converts at 5-8 years of age is on-field success. If the club can get players out to schools in 'our' growing zone, and those kids then see the same players on TV having success, they will scream "Mum, that guy with the dreadlocks kicked the footy with me at school" and you might have a chance to twig that crucial link in his/her mind and convert them as a breakaway.

No parent in Victoria would block their kid from following the Dogs (in the way you would if your kid wanted to follow Collingwood, for example!) However many will shake their heads and quip "You're in for a hard life, kiddo!" It''s a subject of ridicule because of our history and poor performances. Kids are vulnerable to that.

I'm satisfied that the club are running adequate community engagement programs. I'm also satisfied that we've got our sh1t together on the football side of things. If we remain patient and positive, we can make big progress. The one thing we shouldn't do is eat our own. All you can do is buy your membership ticket and stay positive.

Because as it stands, we ARE a small club. Doesn't mean we shouldn't think big, but we need to keep some perspective on where we're coming from. A 60 year drought takes a fair bit of breaking. For me, our big trump card is the Cinderella story that will someday come (I believe within 5 years). The build up to it and the eventual crescendo will convert just about any 6 year old in Victoria! It WILL be huge! With prolonged on field success, converted kids can come home from school, declare themselves Dogs fans and carry it with a spring in their step for many years. That's what I'm waiting for..

Build a flag and they will come!

[Eastdog]

Absolutely the lack of success is the major issue. This is my point. The Dogs simply have a small fan base. We shouldn't turn on our own for this misplaced perception that we are a 'fickle' bunch with a massive latent supporter base! We have to build one over decades of success. I'd have thought that simply by following WBFC, one is immune from the 'fickle' tag! I never thought I'd hear it uttered about our own!

North Melbourne made 6 Grand Finals in the 1970s and 3 in the 90's. That earned them support. Even Sht Kilda have made 6 GF appearance since our last one. Then there's the countless Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood and Hawthorn GF appearances. I honestly believe that a lot of Melbourne FC parents lost their kids to Hawthorn in the 70'sand 80's. Success brings support... And we haven't had much if any!

There's nothing like a winning team to hook an average 5-6 year old! North no doubt converted a glut in the 70's and another bunch in the 90's. St Kilda had success upon relocating to Moorabbin in the 60's and nabbed a decent bunch. Hawthorn started a virtual revolution in the 1970's and 80's whilst Collingwood, Essendon and Carlton have just been Old Man Rivers - consistently rolling along successfully for 100 years.

The growth of the western suburbs, although helpful, is not a golden ticket. Kids in Caroline Springs and Point Cook largely follow the team that their mum or dad push onto them. And let's face it, those family decisions were made 70+ years ago! There's far more Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon mums and dads than there are Doggies mums and dads about the place!

So there's a multiplier effect as a result. The thing that bucks that trend and turns kids into converts at 5-8 years of age is on-field success. If the club can get players out to schools in 'our' growing zone, and those kids then see the same players on TV having success, they will scream "Mum, that guy with the dreadlocks kicked the footy with me at school" and you might have a chance to twig that crucial link in his/her mind and convert them as a breakaway.

No parent in Victoria would block their kid from following the Dogs (in the way you would if your kid wanted to follow Collingwood, for example!) However many will shake their heads and quip "You're in for a hard life, kiddo!" It''s a subject of ridicule because of our history and poor performances. Kids are vulnerable to that.

I'm satisfied that the club are running adequate community engagement programs. I'm also satisfied that we've got our sh1t together on the football side of things. If we remain patient and positive, we can make big progress. The one thing we shouldn't do is eat our own. All you can do is buy your membership ticket and stay positive.

Because as it stands, we ARE a small club. Doesn't mean we shouldn't think big, but we need to keep some perspective on where we're coming from. A 60 year drought takes a fair bit of breaking. For me, our big trump card is the Cinderella story that will someday come (I believe within 5 years). The build up to it and the eventual crescendo will convert just about any 6 year old in Victoria! It WILL be huge! With prolonged on field success, converted kids can come home from school, declare themselves Dogs fans and carry it with a spring in their step for many years. That's what I'm waiting for..

Build a flag and they will come!

A post in this thread I made before do you think we restrict ourselves growing our brand solely in the outer western corridor. I believe we really need to grow it everywhere and with the success hopefully more support will come everywhere. Good to hear your thoughts Webby?

[Webby]

A post in this thread I made before do you think we restrict ourselves growing our brand solely in the outer western corridor. I believe we really need to grow it everywhere and with the success hopefully more support will come everywhere. Good to hear your thoughts Webby?

Collingwood have a pokies venue in Caroline Springs and Hawthorn also have one nearby. They clearly don't restrict themselves, do they? If you look at our 'celebrity' supporters as a quick sample, Wil Anderson is from East Gippy (our old country zone), so he was clearly twigged by a local connection or an encounter with a KT or Jennings or Royal or something..? Mark Seymour was from the NE Vic rural district-cum- southern suburbs - so something twigged his childhood affections and Liam Hemsworth was from the eastern suburbs-cum Phillip Island.

I can't actually think of too many celeb fans from the west (under 70 that is, sorry Ernie!) maybe Dave O'Neill?? So that small sample is evidence that the random kids who might be unaligned aren't just situated in the west. They're everywhere.

A strength of the Dogs is our jumper and colours. Also the 'Bulldog' appeals to kids - if presented in the right way. I remember as a kid Scragger the mascot being a big thrill to see. Also another one called 'Beeza' who got around WO. There's a lot of selling points. A random free baseball cap can buy you a little supporter for life. Even just a 20 second chat with a player is something that can hook a kid for life. They don't forget that sort of stuff. Follow it up with some on field success and you've got a new fan who'll grow up to be a supporter.

And although growing, the west is only a minority portion of greater Melbourne... And as I say, Hawthorn and Collingwood are well and truly encroaching.

[Eastdog]

Collingwood have a pokies venue in Caroline Springs and Hawthorn also have one nearby. They clearly don't restrict themselves, do they? If you look at our 'celebrity' supporters as a quick sample, Wil Anderson is from East Gippy (our old country zone), so he was clearly twigged by a local connection or an encounter with a KT or Jennings or Royal or something..? Mark Seymour was from the NE Vic rural district-cum- southern suburbs - so something twigged his childhood affections and Liam Hemsworth was from the eastern suburbs-cum Phillip Island.

I can't actually think of too many celeb fans from the west (under 70 that is, sorry Ernie!) maybe Dave O'Neill?? So that small sample is evidence that the random kids who might be unaligned aren't just situated in the west. They're everywhere.

A strength of the Dogs is our jumper and colours. Also the 'Bulldog' appeals to kids - if presented in the right way. I remember as a kid Scragger the mascot being a big thrill to see. Also another one called 'Beeza' who got around WO. There's a lot of selling points. A random free baseball cap can buy you a little supporter for life. Even just a 20 second chat with a player is something that can hook a kid for life. They don't forget that sort of stuff. Follow it up with some on field success and you've got a new fan who'll grow up to be a supporter.

And although growing, the west is only a minority portion of greater Melbourne... And as I say, Hawthorn and Collingwood are well and truly encroaching.

If thats the case then there is no reason why we couldn't operate a venue in say the Northern suburbs and Eastern suburbs and with good management they could be very profitable for us along with Edgewater Maribyrnong which looks to be an exciting development. We Operate the Peninsula Club down in Dromana which is a good start.

[Ozza]

I'm currently on the MCC waiting list. I wonder how many MCC members are Western Bulldogs members or fans.

We would be one of the lowest represented clubs in the MCC - but there is a few.
I'm an MCC member, so its a shame for me that we don't get to play there often. I'm happy to have a level 2 seat at Etihad - but 4 or 5 MCG games a year would be nice!

[Eastdog]

We would be one of the lowest represented clubs in the MCC - but there is a few.
I'm an MCC member, so its a shame for me that we don't get to play there often. I'm happy to have a level 2 seat at Etihad - but 4 or 5 MCG games a year would be nice!

I'm hoping in the coming years we play 4 or 5 games at the MCG too. We seemed to play there more like 7-8 years ago when our membership was low than now when our membership is a bit higher. Regardless of how many people we draw to games we should be playing much more than 1 game per season there. It would help us if we are finals bound as well.