Our forward line - changing places

[Ghost Dog]

As written up on AFL.com

WESTERN BULLDOGS
Marcus Bontempelli: The tall rangy midfielder is likely to ply his trade up forward while he builds muscle and fitness. The club won't rush the No.4 pick but an early season debut isn't out of the equation.
Ayce Cordy: Yet to establish himself in six years at the club, the 202cm forward/ruckman has shown glimpses of potential. Injuries have slowed his progress but he needs a big year.
Stewart Crameri: The club's biggest name recruit since Jason Akermanis, Crameri has impressed in his short time at Whitten Oval. Will be a massive inclusion in the forward 50 along with stints in the midfield.
Luke Dahlhaus: After a slow start to last year, the livewire small forward finished like a train kicking 17 goals in the final nine games. Will be looking for more midfield time this season.
Tory Dickson: An ankle injury cost the goalsneak a large chunk of 2013 but he returned to his dangerous best late in the season. An important part of the forward set-up.
Daniel Giansiracusa: The 31-year-old is set to reprise his role as 'super sub' before moving into a coaching role with the club in 2015. The Dogs need more competition from younger players for his spot.
Jarrad Grant: His days at the kennel looked numbered before a late season purple patch earned him a new two-year deal. An ankle injury has hampered his pre-season but 2014 could be the year he finally realises his potential.
Shaun Higgins: The luckless half-forward is yet again returning from injury (foot) and it's seen him undertake a modified pre-season. At 25, another year of frustration may spell the end of his time at Whitten Oval.
Mitch Honeychurch: In the mould of Luke Dahlhaus, the feisty midfielder looks set to start his AFL career as a harassing small forward with a nose for goals. Another cult hero in the making.
Lachie Hunter: The son of Mark Hunter impressed as a creative half-forward late in 2013 and should continue in that role while he builds his tank. Looks set to emulate his father and become a star.
Liam Jones: Coming off the back of another inconsistent year, the 22-year-old has spent the pre-season building the fitness required to play centre half-forward. Crameri's arrival will help his cause.
Robert Murphy: The evergreen veteran should play forward more in 2014 once he recovers from an elbow injury. His creative brilliance and precise kicking will help the Dogs kick more goals.
Fletcher Roberts: The third-year key forward will continue to develop in the VFL but needs to work on his physicality and consistency. Also has the potential to play as a key defender.
Jake Stringer: An impressive debut campaign netted 12 goals in 11 games as a medium sized forward. Has spent the pre-season building the fitness required to play in the midfield but he seems destined to be a star in the mould of Matthew Pavlich.
Tom Williams: The injury-riddled big man was recast as a forward in 2013 before a shoulder dislocation ended his season in round 10. He has the attributes to make an impact in attack if he can stay on the park.

Which changes would you like to see in this lineup?
I'd like to see Easton Wood given a go in the forward line. Believe he could make an impact up there and add some physicality. Campbell is another who has some attributes making him a difficult match up. Cooney could be a very handy forward. Straight kick and a smart player.
Question marks over Higgins and Cordy.

Who will lead the goal kicking?
Dahlhaus

[always right]

Lachie Hunter: The son of Mark Hunter impressed as a creative half-forward late in 2013 and should continue in that role while he builds his tank. Looks set to emulate his father and become a star.

Lachie's father was no star. In the words of the late Jack Dyer...."a good ordinary footballer". I liked Mark Hunter but it's obvious that Lachie has much more natural talent, even at this early stage.

[Remi Moses]

Lachie's father was no star. In the words of the late Jack Dyer...."a good ordinary footballer". I liked Mark Hunter but it's obvious that Lachie has much more natural talent, even at this early stage.

Thinking the same thing. Mark was a real goer ( blighted by soft tissue injuries)but not a star.

[Mofra]

Dahlhaus as the tip to lead the goal kicking is a surprising one, especially as each year he spends slightly more time in the midfield.

I would think Crameri is the favourite with Dickson the dark horse.

[bulldogtragic]

Dahlhaus as the tip to lead the goal kicking is a surprising one, especially as each year he spends slightly more time in the midfield.

I would think Crameri is the favourite with Dickson the dark horse.

I'm trying to 'like' your post. Completely agree with everything.

[bornadog]

The forward line is ever changing and so it should be till we get the right combination. Wasn't long ago we kicked more goals than any other team now we are near the bottom of that ladder as well.

We need a fit and firing midfield to get the ball into the forward line and hit someone on the chest. Agree with Mof, Crameri to lead the goal kicking.

[Ghost Dog]

Crameri is the obvious choice, but things aren't always that predictable. You can imagine Crameri having a huge influence on the number of opportunities for our smaller forwards. Love to see Gia go out on a high and kick a few bags.

[GVGjr]

I'm trying to 'like' your post. Completely agree with everything.

I will switch on this option soon but I need to give some direction on how it is to be used ...not abused. :)

[GVGjr]

Crameri is the obvious choice, but things aren't always that predictable. You can imagine Crameri having a huge influence on the number of opportunities for our smaller forwards. Love to see Gia go out on a high and kick a few bags.

Yeah, I'd like to see Giansiracusa go out with a 30 plus goal season as well but we must give Hrovat, Hunter and maybe even Honeychurch the opportunity to play a lot of games.

[stefoid]

Cooney from the midfield

[bulldogtragic]

If the theory of making a player of talent force a spot in the seniors (ie Grant last year) makes a player come good, then

Stringer and Jones can't be too far off falling into the same argument.

[lemmon]

If the theory of making a player of talent force a spot in the seniors (ie Grant last year) makes a player come good, then

Stringer and Jones can't be too far off falling into the same argument.
I agree Stringer needs an extended run in the twos. His game as a forward looks to be built on tricks and not much else. He flies from behind, he's good below his knees and has a nice array of snaps from the boundary and dribble shots but he doesn't get too many easy kicks. I'd put him in the VFL side and make sure he is a genuine part of the midfield rotation. Let's see how he goes in the centre square and whether we do have a real midfielder on our hands rather than just a third tall.

Jones I thought added something to the structure today. He at least brought the ball to ground when he did fly. He was average but I think his height is needed in the forward line

[Happy Days]

No one leads.

This mid size set up can work, but only if they (Crameri & String in particular) use their pace to create separation. Instead what we're getting is constant attempts to double back into space, and as we've been painfully made aware of there are only 2-3 guys in the team with the penetration on their kicking to be able to get it over the back; if anyone else has it the delivery doesn't work.

We actually had some space to work into but just didn't use it. Does anyone think this is a directive, a lack of faith in teammates to be able to reward a lead, or something else.

Also, anyone else think Crameri looked unfit today? There was a chase on their forward flank in the 3rd quarter that looked particularly pathetic.

[lemmon]

No one leads.

This mid size set up can work, but only if they (Crameri & String in particular) use their pace to create separation. Instead what we're getting is constant attempts to double back into space, and as we've been painfully made aware of there are only 2-3 guys in the team with the penetration on their kicking to be able to get it over the back; if anyone else has it the delivery doesn't work.

We actually had some space to work into but just didn't use it. Does anyone think this is a directive, a lack of faith in teammates to be able to reward a lead, or something else.

Also, anyone else think Crameri looked unfit today? There was a chase on their forward flank in the 3rd quarter that looked particularly pathetic.
Great, great post. It's something I noticed today and mentioned in the match day thread as well. The space was there on the rebound multiple times but Crameri and Stringer were determined to do nothing other than try and receive the ball running back towards goal over the zone. Its an extremely hard kick to make and it's why they looked to be caught behind so many times. I called it laziness, whether it was coaching direction I don't know.

[boydogs]

Stringer has decided he's a crumber - doesn't lead, doesn't even compete in a marking contest when it is kicked to him. He seems to have gotten sick of being outreached or outmuscled early in his career, and taken to getting out the back in the hopes of a cheapie. This bad habit needs to stop if he's going to develop - he has to get stronger and faster and win the ball on his merits.

Jones has gotten really good at crashing a pack and trying to mark the ball with his eyes closed. He's developed concrete hands after having really sticky hands early in his career to the point where he was outmarking Barry Hall. He thinks his role is just to bring the ball to ground, but he has to grow beyond that and start pulling down some marks. He needs to get more ball on the lead and in 1 on 1's.

There wouldn't have been many marks in our forward 50 today, and our key forwards weren't the ones scoring our goals.

[Remi Moses]

Nobody leads, but if you don't quick transition and a decent kick it's hard.
The thing I notice is nobody puts a block on or dummy leads or has any forward smarts .
Probably only Jarryd Grant, lachie and Luke Dahlhaus.
Jones just doesn't have the work rate or work ethic to make it.
Twenty years ago he's style was acceptable, and look at the way Aaron Black worked his arse off.
Gotta admit getting sick of Jones playing from behind and trying to win a car

[Remi Moses]

If the theory of making a player of talent force a spot in the seniors (ie Grant last year) makes a player come good, then

Stringer and Jones can't be too far off falling into the same argument.

Jones has had so many bloody chances ( I've lost faith) and jake seems to think his natural talent will pull him through.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

My patience with Jones is wearing thin, too.

It's time to deliver.

[bornadog]

jake seems to think his natural talent will pull him through.

I can't agree with this. He has played 12 AFL games, he is still learning. The ball was being bombed into the forward line, he had no option but to try and take a contested mark. Wait till he has had a few more pre-seasons before we start bagging him.

[Remi Moses]

I can't agree with this. He has played 12 AFL games, he is still learning. The ball was being bombed into the forward line, he had no option but to try and take a contested mark. Wait till he has had a few more pre-seasons before we start bagging him.

You are right, probably the frustration with the result and in particular the forward half.
He will be a very good player and a handful for a long period of time.

[GVGjr]

Jones has had so many bloody chances ( I've lost faith) and jake seems to think his natural talent will pull him through.

I think we need to give Jones 6 or 7 weeks before looking to drop him. He is so important to our structure I'm prepared to give him that time.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'm surprised at the angst re: Stringer.

He was always going to take longer to develop given he's coming from a fair way back after a horrific injury. Having said that, there are areas of his game he certainly needs to address, such as not playing from behind and having more urgency when the ball hits the deck.

On Jones, I'm happy to give him a 5-6 week block but he simply needs to influence games instead of flying for TV's and ending up lying on the ground.

[Doc26]

I will switch on this option soon but I need to give some direction on how it is to be used ...not abused. :)


Yeah, I'd like to see Giansiracusa go out with a 30 plus goal season as well but we must give Hrovat, Hunter and maybe even Honeychurch the opportunity to play a lot of games.

I like this.

[lemmon]

Just on Stringer, is he really a tall forward though? For me the end goal is as a strong inside midfielder, I'd rather he learns that specific craft at Footscray rather than play as a full time forward in the Firsts averaging 8 touches a game.

[LostDoggy]

Never thought I'd agree with Lloyd. Jones can play VFL as far as I'm concerned this year. When he's kicking bags of 4 or 5 regularly there, we can consider him.

I would give up every draft pick we get this year plus a senior player for a quality tall forward.

It's a joke. I'm utterly over the midfield arguments.

We haven't had a decent tall forward for 20 years except for the grey hairs of Bazza.

Must change, non negociable at the end of this year.

[FrediKanoute]

Well something has to change. If Jones isn't up to it then move him on. I think we are really missing the balance we had in the late part of last year which is Grant. Ask most defenders what they least like defending against in just about any sport and its pace, something which Grant has in abundence. What he brought to the side was that he made opposition defenders worry about where and what he was doing which took the pressure off the others a little. At the moment as an opposition backman the only guy in the forward line you would be concerned about getting the footy is Dahlhaus with Hunter increasing his threat. The rest are one-dimensional and one paced.

[1eyedog]

I don't see the issue with Jones. He plays in one of the worst teams for moving the ball inside F50. He did what he could against North on Sunday by harassing and applying defensive pressure, certainly something tall forwards are not renown for.

He has been the kahuna ever since Hall retired and has clearly struggled since that time. Anyone remember how cleanly he was marking the ball when Hall was in the side? He needs more help both from the midfield and also his fellow forwards. I remember watching a 40 game Jack Riewoldt thinking this guys a dud, now Jack is no superstar but he's a pretty good player - we need to give Jones more time and assistance in his role.

[1eyedog]

Just on Stringer, is he really a tall forward though? For me the end goal is as a strong inside midfielder, I'd rather he learns that specific craft at Footscray rather than play as a full time forward in the Firsts averaging 8 touches a game.

A leading Fevola-type forward.

[Mofra]

I don't see the issue with Jones. He plays in one of the worst teams for moving the ball inside F50. He did what he could against North on Sunday by harassing and applying defensive pressure, certainly something tall forwards are not renown for.
Bingo - we kicked two goals in a half, and so did North who had both Petrie (playing oversized on Morris) and Black (playing oversized on Wood) who are quality forwards, as well as the 202cm Currie who had an inch or two on Roughead - yet Jones who was playing on an AA full back trying to create opportunities with some of the most woeful F50 entries the AFL has seen somehow comes under more scrutiny than any other forward?

We play dumb football that gives our forwards little chance - I'm all for trading in any decent forward we can get this year, but we had many guys on Sunday who performed worse than Liam Jones. Many.

[bornadog]

Bingo - we kicked two goals in a half, and so did North who had both Petrie (playing oversized on Morris) and Black (playing oversized on Wood) who are quality forwards, as well as the 202cm Currie who had an inch or two on Roughead - yet Jones who was playing on an AA full back trying to create opportunities with some of the most woeful F50 entries the AFL has seen somehow comes under more scrutiny than any other forward?

We play dumb football that gives our forwards little chance - I'm all for trading in any decent forward we can get this year, but we had many guys on Sunday who performed worse than Liam Jones. Many.

Could post Mof, spot on.

[LostDoggy]

A chicken and egg thing. The disposal has been woeful but are our forwards getting themselves into best position to take one on one contested marks. Do we lack that initial speed / knowhow / instinct to get the edge to be in front on a lead? Why is Jones trying to take hangers? Are players blocking and creating space for him? Surely being earlier on the lead and commanding the ball would be a better option. And when he commands the ball is he then capable of marking the thing? He sure seems to drop a lot of potential marks. Isn't it about his timing and his hands, not just the terrible disposal coming in?

I thought he wasn't too bad on the weekend, but I do get frustrated at how he drops marks he should take and how he gets himself out of position to take a mark in the first place.

[wimberga]

The problem that I have with Jones is that if he does not mark it, he basically has no chance.

I have never had so little confidence in any player when the ball is in dispute or on the ground. And even when Jones does take a grab, his kicking is anything but reliable.

I'm not saying we have a better alternative right now, but I think that Jones fits into that category of being too good for the VFL but not good enough for the AFL. Unless something dramatically changes, I look forward to the day that Jones isn't our number 1 target inside 50.

[Cyberdoggie]

I'm sure we have done this experiment last year before finding out that a second string ruckman is a better forward than Jones. Our results last year show that.

Didn't someone say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different outcome?

Jones just isn't good enough to be the main man up forward. He needs someone bigger and better to take the spotlight then maybe he may fit into a supporting role.

[Ghost Dog]

I was thinking the same thing myself. How long have our good players been used to shore up our defence? How long have our blokes down back battled on taller opponents? and how long has it been since we had a genuine target in our forward line?
It's a bit depressing, but soldier on. What else can we do?

[lemmon]

A leading Fevola-type forward.

I haven't seen any aptitude towards that whatsoever. Fev was lighting quick on the lead, had wonderful forward's nous, he found space better than almost anyone and was a seriously underrated contested grab. Stringer is on the slow side and is yet to display much knowledge about what spots a 'key' forward should be working in to. Would it be wrong to say he spend 90% of his junior years before the leg break as a midfielder?

[Ghost Dog]

Jones to wear gloves?

[jeemak]

I haven't seen any aptitude towards that whatsoever. Fev was lighting quick on the lead, had wonderful forward's nous, he found space better than almost anyone and was a seriously underrated contested grab. Stringer is on the slow side and is yet to display much knowledge about what spots a 'key' forward should be working in to. Would it be wrong to say he spend 90% of his junior years before the leg break as a midfielder?

Stringer is most definitely not slow. I agree that he's not likely to be a Fevola type though, who was a master of a long and well timed lead from the goal square.

I think we're going to see bits and pieces from Stringer until he gets his fitness to a level where he can spend some time in the midfield. That means he'll be the second or third forward target and play high and low. I can't see him being the main leading target.

[Bulldog4life]

Bingo - we kicked two goals in a half, and so did North who had both Petrie (playing oversized on Morris) and Black (playing oversized on Wood) who are quality forwards, as well as the 202cm Currie who had an inch or two on Roughead - yet Jones who was playing on an AA full back trying to create opportunities with some of the most woeful F50 entries the AFL has seen somehow comes under more scrutiny than any other forward?

We play dumb football that gives our forwards little chance - I'm all for trading in any decent forward we can get this year, but we had many guys on Sunday who performed worse than Liam Jones. Many.


And we had only one tall in the forward line for both our matches. We should have at least two.

[Remi Moses]

I think we need to give Jones 6 or 7 weeks before looking to drop him. He is so important to our structure I'm prepared to give him that time.

Definitely. I've been prepared to give Liam some time , but it's time he delivered.

[SlimPickens]

I can't agree with this. He has played 12 AFL games, he is still learning. The ball was being bombed into the forward line, he had no option but to try and take a contested mark. Wait till he has had a few more pre-seasons before we start bagging him.

Spot on BAD. Stringer is playing the role required, he is providing a good contest and is a danger around goal.

[1eyedog]

I haven't seen any aptitude towards that whatsoever. Fev was lighting quick on the lead, had wonderful forward's nous, he found space better than almost anyone and was a seriously underrated contested grab. Stringer is on the slow side and is yet to display much knowledge about what spots a 'key' forward should be working in to. Would it be wrong to say he spend 90% of his junior years before the leg break as a midfielder?

Stringer isn't slow and no he was a key position player at Bendigo - playing at either end. He's quick, smart and has excellent hands. Was Fevola even at 10% of his peak output after 10 games of football. The assistant coaching staff at Bulldogs see him as a leading forward and that is why he was drafted.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/bendigos-jake-stringer-a-budding-afl-star/story-e6frf9io-1226341933066

[1eyedog]

Stringer is most definitely not slow. I agree that he's not likely to be a Fevola type though, who was a master of a long and well timed lead from the goal square.

I think we're going to see bits and pieces from Stringer until he gets his fitness to a level where he can spend some time in the midfield. That means he'll be the second or third forward target and play high and low. I can't see him being the main leading target.

Not according to Shannon Grant who likened him to a young Fevola when I spoke to him at the Pound.

Sorry for the double post all.

[anfo27]

Walked out of the game Sunday filthy in the result & our forward 50 entries & efforts but after sleeping on it i think i need to be more realistic of where we are at. Its easy to see some improvement & all of a sudden expect too much too quickly. We are still developing & still miles off in some areas of our game.

Looking at our forward line & our most experienced player is Crameri who has only played 60 games & 2 with us. I'm not including Gia as he only seems to be getting a quarter a game. Then there is Hunter, Stringer & Campbell who have played a dozen each, Dahl & Jones with about 50 each,Stevens & Dickson with 30 each as well. Other than the 2 expansion teams i don't know who would have a less experienced forward line than us. Its just simply going to take time & we just have to be patient. I'd like to see Murphy play forward for this reason.

On Jones, i was happy with his second efforts & pressure but he needs to have more of on influence in a game. Second efforts & pressure is great but not touching the pill in a half of football is not good enough.

I also like GVGs post on the sub. I'd be disappointed if Gia played the majority of the year as a sub when someone like a Honeychurch would be perfect fit for that role.

[jeemak]

Not according to Shannon Grant who likened him to a young Fevola when I spoke to him at the Pound.

Sorry for the double post all.

Sorry, I couldn't really elaborate too much on my post as I was at work.

Him not being a lead up forward probably doesn't have much to do with his capacity to perform that role, more so, it's about how I see him developing as a footballer and how our list and game plan will develop.

I don't see us as a side that will be able to control games to the point where we'll be able to make use of open space coming out of defence for a forward like him to be isolated and lead into for a year or two at least. Aside from that, his development is likely from all reports (aside from Grant's, as you mention) to see him developing into a midfielder once his fitness base develops over that time.

Fevola was so good at that role firstly because he was a natural at it and had no other strings to his bow, and secondly because his team and the overall style of football played at the time allowed him to do it. I can't see the game as it develops allowing a Fevola type that sort of space in the short to medium term. I may be wrong of course.

I'd be wrapped if the game developed to allow a player like Stringer to be one out and capable of leading into space. I'd be absolutely stoked if we had the foot skills to service that sort of player in the coming year or two and beyond. It makes the task of scoring goals so much easier if you can do it.

Don't ever double post again by the way. Jeeeez.

[LostDoggy]

I've every confidence that we'll select a key position player/smart medium forward with our first pick this year - likely to be no lower than pick 5.

Roughead and Cordy were the last KP size players taken in early picks way back in 2008. Hugh Goddard and Peter Wright are KP size and likely to go very early. Also at this early stage there's Christian Petracca and Pat McCartin and mid sized forwards who should also be early picks, although possibly not as high as our first.

Problem is that we ideally would have wanted a key target in the forward line coming through after two pre seasons by now.

Such is the Bulldog life.

[boydogs]

Roughead and Cordy were the last KP size players taken in early picks way back in 2008

Jones was the pick after Roughead, we've also taken Stringer pick 5, Grant pick 5, and traded pick 26 for Crameri

[bornadog]

Jones was the pick after Roughead, we've also taken Stringer pick 5, Grant pick 5, and traded pick 26 for Crameri

Stringer, Grant and Cameri are not KPPs

[jeemak]

Stringer, Grant and Cameri are not KPPs

Grant was picked as a KPF for the most part. History tells us he isn't going to be one (no fault of his own) and that Clayton was a better strategist from a list management perspective than he was a talent procurer when he was with us.

[boydogs]

Stringer, Grant and Cameri are not KPPs

I disagree

[bornadog]

Grant was picked as a KPF for the most part. History tells us he isn't going to be one (no fault of his own) and that Clayton was a better strategist from a list management perspective than he was a talent procurer when he was with us.

Orginally he was picked as a KPP, but it turns out he isn't one.


I disagree

Crameri and Stringer are earmarked for midfield roles. I will agree Grant was drafted as a KPP.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Cameri and Stringer are earmarked for midfield roles. I will agree Grant was drafted as a KPP.

This has been blown out of the water.

He'll spend short bursts in the midfield, but it's not going to be a permanent or lengthy role.

[bornadog]

This has been blown out of the water.

He'll spend short bursts in the midfield, but it's not going to be a permanent or lengthy role.

Fine, but he is not a KPF

[Eastdog]

Fine, but he is not a KPF

His a 3rd tall not a FF.

[1eyedog]

Orginally he was picked as a KPP, but it turns out he isn't one.



Crameri and Stringer are earmarked for midfield roles. I will agree Grant was drafted as a KPP.

Maybe, but hardly ever played midfield in his life. He's not a natural midfielder and doesn't have a tank. he broke his leg before he had the chance to move from FF to the midfield at the Pioneers. He's got a big body and he's smart and anyone who has these attributes is touted as midfield material these days - in reality, he's a mile off playing midfield.

[bornadog]

Maybe, but hardly ever played midfield in his life. He's not a natural midfielder and doesn't have a tank. he broke his leg before he had the chance to move from FF to the midfield at the Pioneers. He's got a big body and he's smart and anyone who has these attributes is touted as midfield material these days - in reality, he's a mile off playing midfield.

Didn't say he was a midfielder right now. I said he is earmarked for a midfield role - some time in the future. The point I was making he is not a KPP.

[1eyedog]

Didn't say he was a midfielder right now. I said he is earmarked for a midfield role - some time in the future. The point I was making he is not a KPP.

I know - I'm saying he is a long way of that.

[Scorlibo]

Didn't say he was a midfielder right now. I said he is earmarked for a midfield role - some time in the future. The point I was making he is not a KPP.

From Stringer's first handful of games, it's clear to me that his greatest strength is his overhead marking ability. The best game I've seen him play was for Williamstown when he kicked five goals to break the game open. He did so with gusto and a true feel of dominance. Dare I say that his play was very arrogant, reminiscent of the arrogance one Wayne Carey used to exhibit.

I'd ask the question: if he's not going to be a main target in our forward line, then will he reach even half of his potential?