Macca's recruitment of only "good people"

[Dry Rot]

Macca's recruitment of only "good people" ranks with other stuff like "cracking in" as often said, and I believe sincerely said, but sometimes I wonder.

In particular, many of us (including me) wanted us to draft Dayle Gaylett and thought it was a bit silly that we didn't if the young lad made a few mistakes like we all have (NB me at his age).

Now this

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-03-01/garlett-at-the-crossroads


Hawk Dayle Garlett won't play as he battles to cope with AFL lifestyle
Michael Rogers and Alex Malcolm March 1, 2014 12:16 AM

DAYLE Garlett's fledgling AFL career is at the crossroads after the Hawthorn recruit told the club he was struggling to cope with the demands of elite-level football.

He will not play AFL or VFL football for Hawthorn's teams in the near future but he will continue to train with the club.

Garlett has not been selected for either of Hawthorn's NAB Challenge matches to date and he will not take part in the Box Hill Hawks' scheduled VFL practice match on Saturday.

Rumours that Garlett had taken time away from the club circulated on social media on Friday evening, before the Hawks released a statement after 11pm to clarify the 20-year-old's position.

Hope Garlett gets over this and makes it, but it's food for thought how draftees are selected.

[boydogs]

Garlett's an extreme case, was overlooked by all 18 clubs in the national, preseason and rookie drafts in 2012 and still lasted until the 2nd round last year. We're not special for overlooking him.

[Remi Moses]

I think everyone else not picking him says something.

[Hotdog60]

Maybe he's just one of those guys that's happy with 3 nights a week training and having a kick on the weekend. Very talented and can play at this level but doesn't have the inside drive to play and live the rigors of AFL footy.
Maybe it will click and he'll go on. But at this early stage he looks like he may settle going back and being a star in the WAFL.
He maybe a good pickup at 27 or 28 when the penny drops.

[1eyedog]

Dayle has had a very difficult upbringing and has witnessed many things that most others of his age have never been exposed to. His life trajectory has been different and challenging to say the least and these things have a profound effect on what you can do and what you simply can't do in life. Coupled with this is the fact that he has been removed from his 'mob' and brought across to Victoria to do something that requires an intensity that he never learnt as junior footballer or as a child.

Dayle has always had people telling him how good he was and never really had to do much to be better than everyone else because he is just so talented. Obviously in order to meet the demands of being an AFL footballer you need to lift your intensity and be disciplined and therein lies the problem, he does not have the tools for this - yet.

Hawthorn will be hoping like crazy that he can settle down in another year or two because he is supremely talented.

[GVGjr]

I get the impression that Macca is genuine with his 'good people' philosphy and I think there is a lot of merit in it but I'm not sure that it really fits with Dayle Garlett because all clubs were highly hesitant in selecting him. His problems were obviously well known.

I think what it proves is only the very strong clubs are willing to risk things. The likes of the Bulldogs can't take risks.

[The Underdog]

How do we judge "good people"? Seems fairly subjective. I get the theory but I'd be interested to see the full set of criteria they make that judgement by.

[bulldogtragic]

How do we judge "good people"? Seems fairly subjective. I get the theory but I'd be interested to see the full set of criteria they make that judgement by.

I tend to agree, was Stevie J a good person when he was kicked out of Geelong for 3 months for his 10th strike or a good person now. It's not a criticism but 'good people' is entirely subjective.

[1eyedog]

How do we judge "good people"? Seems fairly subjective. I get the theory but I'd be interested to see the full set of criteria they make that judgement by.

Great question. Dayle would do anything for his family and is certainly considered by them to be a good person. He has a few beers and likes going out - not the best mix for an AFL footballer but these two things go hand in hand with probably 90% of boys his age who don't play football. The good people mantra to me seems to be all about good principles, morals and values and a strong family (which incidentally Dayle has). I know because I periodically work with many of his family in W.A. In Dayle's case 'good person' seems to be more about discipline and commitment than anything else.

[Hotdog60]

Good people don't get caught..;)

[BornInDroopSt'54]

I tend to agree, was Stevie J a good person when he was kicked out of Geelong for 3 months for his 10th strike or a good person now. It's not a criticism but 'good people' is entirely subjective.

Yep I think as a rule of thumb 'good'people are people who will not rundown your club's culture. So they may not share the culture or be able to add to it but as long as they don't give it cancer, the culture can carry them until they become part of the family. So a Stevie Johnson is still a 'good' person as long as he respects the culture even if he originally can't always abide by it. Hence it may be that Garlett is worth persisting with, given the dynamics that 1eyedog outlined so well.

[bornadog]

How do we judge "good people"? Seems fairly subjective. I get the theory but I'd be interested to see the full set of criteria they make that judgement by.

Agree with this. Lots of people are good people, they make mistakes (Libba says hello), but as long as they learn from those mistakes.

[bulldogtragic]

Yep I think as a rule of thumb 'good'people are people who will not rundown your club's culture. So they may not share the culture or be able to add to it but as long as they don't give it cancer, the culture can carry them until they become part of the family. So a Stevie Johnson is still a 'good' person as long as he respects the culture even if he originally can't always abide by it. Hence it may be that Garlett is worth persisting with, given the dynamics that 1eyedog outlined so well.

Having Macca, JMac, Maple and lots of good people at the coal face is why I advocated to look at Dayle last year. Being immature and allowing yourself to be easily misled doesn't make some not a good a person. I suffered from that as a scally wag teenager. The idiots I considered friends all got held back a year and some teachers had open hostility towards me. But one event and one teacher, very much in the BMac mould of teacher, believed in me and fought for me, and my turnaround was impressive as I look back. I remember hearing about being misled because I was in a 'bad crowd'. So I now live using the same principle, but reversed, emersing myself in a 'good crowd', and you'd be surprised the success that rubs off just as much as the bad stuff apparently rubs off. It might just take more time for Dayle for the good to rub off.

So it's a matter for Dayle that the club thinks they can get the penny to drop and matching him with someone that can coax out the good in him. I just hope for Dayle's sake he doesn't live to regret any missed opportunities.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Yes you know that it can happen. It happened to Henry IV according to Shakespeare. He was a dissolute youth, partying, going to pubs and hanging around loose women. Then in his late twenties knew his country needed him and he would become king and transformed himself into a strong leader. It's a classic story. So perhaps you, me and Dayle to a greater or lesser extent. And as you say this can happen when such individuals are immersed in a better culture such as an AFL club (Essendon excepted).

[LongWait]

I'd find it difficult to be so philosophical about the Garlett discussion if we'd used pick 5 in the 2012 draft to select him.

[jazzadogs]

How do we judge "good people"? Seems fairly subjective. I get the theory but I'd be interested to see the full set of criteria they make that judgement by.

Don't have the full set of criteria, but I remember at a talk Macca gave one night he was talking about their drafting approach. There was some sort of 100-point ranking system which they used, with a mix of personality and footballing categories. Not sure if anyone else has more detail/remembers more about what the categories were?

[always right]

Yes you know that it can happen. It happened to Henry IV according to Shakespeare. He was a dissolute youth, partying, going to pubs and hanging around loose women. Then in his late twenties knew his country needed him and he would become king and transformed himself into a strong leader. It's a classic story. So perhaps you, me and Dayle to a greater or lesser extent. And as you say this can happen when such individuals are immersed in a better culture such as an AFL club (Essendon excepted).

Ah yes...Henry VI....absolute scallywag. If I recall correctly he got done for peptide abuse although I think it had a different name back then.

[SonofScray]

Don't have the full set of criteria, but I remember at a talk Macca gave one night he was talking about their drafting approach. There was some sort of 100-point ranking system which they used, with a mix of personality and footballing categories. Not sure if anyone else has more detail/remembers more about what the categories were?

He does have a matrix where they mark off where an individual rates along certain criteria. So it is still subjective but I suppose it gives some quantitative data to act as tie breaker when there is a conflict of opinion in the footy dept, or a decision has to be made between two similar candidates.

Mostly though I think its Brendan's old fashioned values which drive it. I don't mind, footy Clubs need that clarity and sense of hierarchy IMO and this approach seems a good fit.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Ah yes...Henry VI....absolute scallywag. If I recall correctly he got done for peptide abuse although I think it had a different name back then.
That's right. Human nature repeats itself and don't fool yourself the new world of peptides is outside of that. It's still all about human nature and its husbandry. And Shakespeare was the greatest ever at insight into human nature and dramatising it. Get onto it Brendan.

[mjp]

Great question. Dayle would do anything for his family and is certainly considered by them to be a good person. He has a few beers and likes going out - not the best mix for an AFL footballer but these two things go hand in hand with probably 90% of boys his age who don't play football. The good people mantra to me seems to be all about good principles, morals and values and a strong family (which incidentally Dayle has). I know because I periodically work with many of his family in W.A. In Dayle's case 'good person' seems to be more about discipline and commitment than anything else.

Dayle is a great kid. What everyone doesn't understand is that what was considered 'good behaviour' in his life growing up is 'borderline' behaviour within a footy club. You might think he should just 'figure it out' or 'learn to follow the rules' or whatever it is that you believe, but until you have walked a mile in someones shoes you should probably not be so judgemental.

The games will start. Dayle will start playing footy. The rhythm of the season will take over. He will be fine.

[stefoid]

Sounds like an ideal case for a rookie pick the year previous.

[Twodogs]

Yes you know that it can happen. It happened to Henry IV according to Shakespeare. He was a dissolute youth, partying, going to pubs and hanging around loose women. Then in his late twenties knew his country needed him and he would become king and transformed himself into a strong leader. It's a classic story. So perhaps you, me and Dayle to a greater or lesser extent. And as you say this can happen when such individuals are immersed in a better culture such as an AFL club (Essendon excepted).


It was Henry V who was the 'prince Hal' who hung around with Falstaff drinking at the Boar's Head (great spoonerism). Henry IV took the throne of Richard II and spent the rest of hs life fighting the Welsh and fending off ill health and revolts (some of them from prince Henry). Prince Hal was mainly a literary creation by Shakespeare though. From the age of 16 prince Henry sent a lot of time fighting the Welsh and learning the long bow tactics that served him so well at Agincourt and his French campaigns. It didn't leave him a lot of time for carousing.

[Twodogs]

Ah yes...Henry VI....absolute scallywag. If I recall correctly he got done for peptide abuse although I think it had a different name back then.

Henry VI was insane. Properly insane. He spent nearly half his reign in a catatonic state.

[Twodogs]

Dayle is a great kid. What everyone doesn't understand is that what was considered 'good behaviour' in his life growing up is 'borderline' behaviour within a footy club. You might think he should just 'figure it out' or 'learn to follow the rules' or whatever it is that you believe, but until you have walked a mile in someones shoes you should probably not be so judgemental.

The games will start. Dayle will start playing footy. The rhythm of the season will take over. He will be fine.


What you say about borderline behaviour being normal rings true. Well put.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

It was Henry V who was the 'prince Hal' who hung around with Falstaff drinking at the Boar's Head (great spoonerism). Henry IV took the throne of Richard II and spent the rest of hs life fighting the Welsh and fending off ill health and revolts (some of them from prince Henry). Prince Hal was mainly a literary creation by Shakespeare though. From the age of 16 prince Henry sent a lot of time fighting the Welsh and learning the long bow tactics that served him so well at Agincourt and his French campaigns. It didn't leave him a lot of time for carousing.

Thanks for the the very interesting learned historical note.
The relevance of Shakespeare's Hal to the thread being that Hal, heir apparent, like Dayle Garlett, spends a dissolute,pleasure seeking youth in hedonistic company yet becomes a great leader upon assuming responsibility.
"Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety (or in Dayle's case, talent)." 1Henry IV, Act 2 Scene 3 .
Macca's 'good' people would include Hal and I don't believe it would necessarily exclude Dayle but whatever, the need to create a good culture is much more important than taking an uneducated risk with individuals and I'm proud of Macca's influence on The Bulldogs culture.

[Maddog37]

Surely most of us being Footscray supporters have a soft spot for the underdog. My take on Dayle is that he is just a kid with sublime skill that will need to work hard (maybe harder than most when it is all said and done) but I hope he does and becomes a great afl player. I must however state that I hope it us not with the Hawks. I hate them with a passion! They breed arrogance in player and supporter alike. Almost the antithesis of a bulldog supporter.

[bulldogtragic]

Surely most of us being Footscray supporters have a soft spot for the underdog. My take on Dayle is that he is just a kid with sublime skill that will need to work hard (maybe harder than most when it is all said and done) but I hope he does and becomes a great afl player. I must however state that I hope it us not with the Hawks. I hate them with a passion! They breed arrogance in player and supporter alike. Almost the antithesis of a bulldog supporter.

Imagine 24/7 footy media and social media around Hawthorn drafting Gary Ablett Snr and then trading him away relatively soon after. I have no real point, but Ablett wouldn't played 20 games if any at all.

[bornadog]

Imagine 24/7 footy media and social media around Hawthorn drafting Gary Ablett Snr and then trading him away relatively soon after. I have no real point, but Ablett wouldn't played 20 games if any at all.

Come on BT, they are all robots and have to all be cloned the same way to make it in the AFL.:D

[bulldogtragic]

Come on BT, they are all robots and have to all be cloned the same way to make it in the AFL.:D

:) That's what good coaches and club culture is for, and what makes the journey to a premiership enthralling. Look at us this year compared to Brisbane and their exodus in particular. Trying yo motivate 40 different young men is a massive challenge and that's why Macca looks the goods so far. We have many, many personalities which I love and Macca is harnessing these differences. But I'd back him in with just about any young draftee, some of the most talented kids do have issues, see Stevie Johnson.

I remember Ben Graham talking about a percentage of players in the NFL and NBA being in prison and that coaches have to work around that. I'm not liking Collingwood bringing in an acceptability of the Williams issue, or Saints playing Saad on a technicality. I don't want to see the AFL follow on this.

[Webby]

I think it's a cyclical thing. A question of timing. Like building a house. Don't cut corners with the foundations, but one is permitted to get a bit 'creative' with the finishing touches. McC's remit is that of a foundation builder. Once you have solid foundations, you can 'top up with' or 'absorb' one 'finishing' pieces that compliment the finished article. As North and Brisbane both did with Martin Leslie (and Melbourne didn't..)

I like the cut of my sub-floor builder's jib!

[Remi Moses]

Twenty to thirty years ago borderline behaviour was perceived to be okay in football clubs.
Fast forward twenty years and it's unacceptable behaviour, due to various reasons ( dare I say it brand)
I think it occasionally goes to far, but in this professional sport era the players have to behave accordingly

[LostDoggy]

Defination of Good People:

- Anyone not drafted by the filth or the saints.

"Bada-boom-tish..."

:)

[Pembleton]

As North and Brisbane both did with Martin Leslie (and Melbourne didn't..)



I think you have your Martins confused :)

[Ghost Dog]

At the heart of this thread is where we want to put our core values.

Ghost Dog gets all highbrow and takes an example from the art world.
Picasso, beat his lovers, was a serial womanizer with hundereds if not several hundereds of lovers, two of which he drove to suicide. After a quick sketch, he liked to recite sado-masochistic literature in bed. He would have been a lock-in down at St Kilda.
Most art critics will bypass all this sordid behaviour without a second thought and put him at the top of the ladder of artists. It's painting.

Contrast this with the Northern Song Dynasty and literati painting, where they threw out realism and used art as a vehicle to develop the character of the maker, and further refine his moral development When discussing a work, critics would, and still do discuss the life and personality of the artist equally, along with the symbolism and treatment of the subject. Picasso would have only rated a mention in the infamous sense in those days. In short, paint to raise your total development. That's also painting.

Anyhow, forgive my playful posting, but are we in this to win the silver, or is it part of a whole package? Great to win a flag, and for Bulldogs fans it becomes a source of desparation. Despite that, I'd like all our players to kick on after footy and be in good shape; do well for the community.
Laud Brendan for his approach: total footy.

[Ghost Dog]

At the heart of this thread is where we want to put our core values.

Ghost Dog gets all highbrow and takes an example from the art world.
Picasso, beat his lovers, was a serial womanizer with hundereds if not several hundereds of lovers, two of which he drove to suicide. After a quick sketch, he liked to recite sado-masochistic literature in bed. He would have been a lock-in down at St Kilda.
Most art critics will bypass all this sordid behaviour without a second thought and put him at the top of the ladder of artists. It's painting.

Contrast this with the Northern Song Dynasty and literati painting, where they threw out realism: art used as a vehicle to develop the character of the maker, and further refine his moral development. When discussing a work, critics would, and still do discuss the life and personality of the artist equally, along with the symbolism and treatment of the subject. Picasso would have only rated a mention in the infamous sense in those days. In short, paint to raise your total development. That's also painting.

Anyhow, forgive my playful posting, but are we in this to win the silver, or is it part of a whole package? Must win a flag, and for Bulldogs fans it becomes a source of desparation. Despite that, I'd like all our players to kick on after footy and be in good shape. I'm really proud of the character of our club.
Laud Brendan for his approach: total footy.

PS I just know some poster with a PHD in Fine Art is going to blow me out of the water in the next post.

[bulldogtragic]

At the heart of this thread is where we want to put our core values.

Ghost Dog gets all highbrow and takes an example from the art world.
Picasso, beat his lovers, was a serial womanizer with hundereds if not several hundereds of lovers, two of which he drove to suicide. After a quick sketch, he liked to recite sado-masochistic literature in bed. He would have been a lock-in down at St Kilda.
Most art critics will bypass all this sordid behaviour without a second thought and put him at the top of the ladder of artists. It's painting.

Contrast this with the Northern Song Dynasty and literati painting, where they threw out realism: art used as a vehicle to develop the character of the maker, and further refine his moral development. When discussing a work, critics would, and still do discuss the life and personality of the artist equally, along with the symbolism and treatment of the subject. Picasso would have only rated a mention in the infamous sense in those days. In short, paint to raise your total development. That's also painting.

Anyhow, forgive my playful posting, but are we in this to win the silver, or is it part of a whole package? Must win a flag, and for Bulldogs fans it becomes a source of desparation. Despite that, I'd like all our players to kick on after footy and be in good shape. I'm really proud of the character of our club.
Laud Brendan for his approach: total footy.

PS I just know some poster with a PHD in Fine Art is going to blow me out of the water in the next post.

Exactly. It's the difference between being in The People's Front of Judea, or The Judean People's Front.

[Maddog37]

Only on WOOF would this thread exist. Love the unexpected tangents and differing aspects people offer time and again. The older I get the more I realise the journey to a flag is in many ways more important than the flag itself.

[bulldogtragic]

Only on WOOF would this thread exist. Love the unexpected tangents and differing aspects people offer time and again. The older I get the more I realise the journey to a flag is in many ways more important than the flag itself.

That's where I'm at too. If only we could convey this to the 5,000 non renewing members each year.

[bulldogsman]

Garlett quits

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-03-25/garlett-quits-hawks

[jeemak]

And another layer of cynicism will be added to recruiting processes!

I await the calls from commentators that only Sydney's "Bloods" culture would have been perfect for him etc. and that Hawthorn need to review their culture.

Good luck to the kid. Hope he gets his opportunity to realise his potential once he settles down and matures.

I'm glad we didn't pick him. I couldn't be bothered with the crap on this board and in the media saying how we could have and should have done better with him from commentators who have no idea on what he's all about.

[Remi Moses]

I guess the AFL world isn't cut out for some.
Good luck to the kid.

[Go_Dogs]

Sad to hear, but wish him all the best.

Being a professional footballer isn't for everyone.

[bornadog]

Sad to hear, but wish him all the best.

Being a professional footballer isn't for everyone.
Yeah just ask Schofield

[Twodogs]

I await the calls from commentators that only Sydney's "Bloods" culture would have been perfect for him etc. and that Hawthorn need to review their culture.



Let's see how the Bloods culture survives Buddy first.

[chef]

Yeah just ask Schofield

Yep, being a professional footballer isn't for everyone....I guess there can be more to life.

[LostDoggy]

I guess the Garlett situation just confirms to me that talent MUST be augmented with a good life balance. I do hope the kid gets his life in balance. In a strange way, and without knowing him from Adam, I reckon having the guts to leave the club and head back to WA to achieve that is probably the most mature decision he's ever made.

[bulldogtragic]

I just hope as the story evolves it's about him as a human, not about white noise or irrelevant side stuff.

[Maddog37]

Good on him for trying and good on the hawks for giving him a chance. Hope he can do his talent justice in time.

[bulldogtragic]

Good on him for trying and good on the hawks for giving him a chance. Hope he can do his talent justice in time.
For all the Hawks Thorpes, Boumanns, Garletts etc
There's Buddy, Guerra, Tim O'Brien with Lake as a cherry

Gotta know how to hold em, know how to fold em, know when to walk away, know when to run.

[Hot_Doggies]

Good on him for trying and good on the hawks for giving him a chance. Hope he can do his talent justice in time.

That's one way to look at it. Waste of talent/draft pick is another.

Good to see MJP got something wrong, so that's a bonus! ;)