Is the back line fixed?

[LostDoggy]

On paper we have a very good backline and a bit of depth.

It's lead by Harris who typically gets the oppositions best key forward. He gets beaten occasionally but
Morris is the shut down player and the one that can be given both tall and shorter opponents and normally gets the job done.
Williams is another one who will primarily play on the tall's but can be used on smaller opponents as well. His marking , smothers and tackles add a lot to the defence and while he has a few bad games there is still a lot of upside.
Gilbee is the play-maker who sets up a lot of attacking thrusts for us. I hope we don't continue to use him against clearly taller opponents.
Griffen (back from his injury) will be another attacking and barnstorming defender.
Hargrave often plays out of his weight division and except for giving away some free kicks he gets the job done and provides a fair bit of attack.

Adding a bit of depth we have McDougall who I believe can play as a CHB which could free up Hargrave or Williams plus we have added Callan who is slotted in for a replacement for McMahon even though they have vastly different playing styles. We also have Addison who might sneak in for a few more senior games plus the exciting Everitt who can also be used as a forward or even on a wing.

Given this sort of depth how do you see the back line forming this year?
Which 6 players are likely to form the nucleus of our back line?
What players could we use in other positions?

Getting the defence right will go a long way towards to getting the right team balance and we can then sort out which players we might be able to use elsewhere.

Thoughts?

[westdog54]

On paper we have a very good backline and a bit of depth.

It's lead by Harris who typically gets the oppositions best key forward. He gets beaten occasionally but
Morris is the shut down player and the one that can be given both tall and shorter opponents and normally gets the job done.
Williams is another one who will primarily play on the tall's but can be used on smaller opponents as well. His marking , smothers and tackles add a lot to the defence and while he has a few bad games there is still a lot of upside.
Gilbee is the play-maker who sets up a lot of attacking thrusts for us. I hope we don't continue to use him against clearly taller opponents.
Griffen (back from his injury) will be another attacking and barnstorming defender.
Hargrave often plays out of his weight division and except for giving away some free kicks he gets the job done and provides a fair bit of attack.

Adding a bit of depth we have McDougall who I believe can play as a CHB which could free up Hargrave or Williams plus we have added Callan who is slotted in for a replacement for McMahon even though they have vastly different playing styles. We also have Addison who might sneak in for a few more senior games plus the exciting Everitt who can also be used as a forward or even on a wing.

Given this sort of depth how do you see the back line forming this year?
Which 6 players are likely to form the nucleus of our back line?
What players could we use in other positions?

Getting the defence right will go a long way towards to getting the right team balance and we can then sort out which players we might be able to use elsewhere.

Thoughts?
Hargrave and Everitt are more than capable, both in terms of their skill and physique, to play on the wing, I wouldn't mind seeing that this year. Look for Callan or Addison to get some jobs in the middle moreso than the backline.

Don't forget the developing O'Shea, he might even sneak in a game or two.

[LostDoggy]

Is it fixed? Watch a tape of rnd 21 v Hawathorn. Nothing much has changed since then. Williams might improve next year, if he learns how to read the play/ball

[Bulldog Revolution]

Thats very much the group of players I see in the backline mix, but I also see Wight as another potential component of that mix - I wasn't pleased with his 2007 but I still remain hopeful that he could make it. We really need a Harris, Griffen or Gilbee to emerge as a captain of the backline type player where they marshall the team the way Grant did, and just generally hold it together in times of crisis.

Its a terrific spot for Addison to really cement a spot in the team with his tackling, courage and dash. He has so many of the ideal qualities of a defender, he just needs his decision making and disposal to continue improving - might be a good one to pair with Gilbee preseason.

[LostDoggy]

Hargrave and Everitt are more than capable, both in terms of their skill and physique, to play on the wing, I wouldn't mind seeing that this year. Look for Callan or Addison to get some jobs in the middle moreso than the backline.

Don't forget the developing O'Shea, he might even sneak in a game or two.
I think O'Shea will need another season but you never know.

I'm not sure exactly why but I'd like to see both Hargrave and Gilbee on a wing because their long kicking could give our forward line a great chance to capitalise on their skills.
If that was the case then Callan would more likely play in the back line.


Thats very much the group of players I see in the backline mix, but I also see Wight as another potential component of that mix - I wasn't pleased with his 2007 but I still remain hopeful that he could make it. We really need a Harris, Griffen or Gilbee to emerge as a captain of the backline type player where they marshall the team the way Grant did, and just generally hold it together in times of crisis.

Its a terrific spot for Addison to really cement a spot in the team with his tackling, courage and dash. He has so many of the ideal qualities of a defender, he just needs his decision making and disposal to continue improving - might be a good one to pair with Gilbee preseason.

Addison is one of the sleepers for next season I think. It's very hard to work out exactly if he is genuinely in the mix but there is something about the way that he moves and his attack on the ball that really appeals.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I think O'Shea will need another season but you never know.

I'm not sure exactly why but I'd like to see both Hargrave and Gilbee on a wing because their long kicking could give our forward line a great chance to capitalise on their skills.
If that was the case then Callan would more likely play in the back line.

Addison is one of the sleepers for next season I think. It's very hard to work out exactly if he is genuinely in the mix but there is something about the way that he moves and his attack on the ball that really appeals.

Agreed - OShea for me is still a development player rather than one who is really in the mix for senior AFL footy. He may be blooded in 2008 but it wont be more than that I wouldn't think - I'd love to see him emerge as a solid VFL full back next year. Full back is not an easy position to play; its very unforgiving on the scoreboard and he'll need to be very strong to be ready for an AFL key position. So for me if he emerged as a quality defender in the VFL senior team I'd be wrapt with his progress.

If Addison can get his body right I think he's definitely in the mix, some of his first year VFL footy was as good as I've seen from a first year player. He's a pretty unassuming character and I dont think he realises just how good he could be. I really think the sky is the limit for him.

[LostDoggy]

Has anyone been down to pre season training and seen Addison train yet. I thought he had OP toward the end of last year so hopefully thats better now.

[westdog54]

Agreed - OShea for me is still a development player rather than one who is really in the mix for senior AFL footy. He may be blooded in 2008 but it wont be more than that I wouldn't think - I'd love to see him emerge as a solid VFL full back next year. Full back is not an easy position to play; its very unforgiving on the scoreboard and he'll need to be very strong to be ready for an AFL key position. So for me if he emerged as a quality defender in the VFL senior team I'd be wrapt with his progress.

If Addison can get his body right I think he's definitely in the mix, some of his first year VFL footy was as good as I've seen from a first year player. He's a pretty unassuming character and I dont think he realises just how good he could be. I really think the sky is the limit for him.

Re: O'Shea, I don't think he'll establish his place in the team in 08. But I can see him making his debut next year.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Has anyone been down to pre season training and seen Addison train yet. I thought he had OP toward the end of last year so hopefully thats better now.

I can't remember what he had but I'm almost certain that it wasn't OP.

[LostDoggy]

Has anyone been down to pre season training and seen Addison train yet. I thought he had OP toward the end of last year so hopefully thats better now.

I was told yesterday by someone here that training is not open to the public so we would be lucky to hear any reports in the short term.

[Mantis]

Has anyone been down to pre season training and seen Addison train yet. I thought he had OP toward the end of last year so hopefully thats better now.

No OP, had a pretty bad leg infection which took a while to heal. Probably could have played the last couple of games, but was told to rest. Is back in full training.

[Go_Dogs]

For mine, the best back six will include the names of Harris, Williams, McDougall, Gilbee, Morris and Callan. With Everitt, Wight, Addison and Hargrave all playing there too.

I agree that we can probably get more value from Hargrave somewhere else on the field. Not sure whether it's on ball or forward at this stage.

[LostDoggy]

If Macdougall is in our team next year, it will be a long long year. At best i see him as a 3rd back up CHB. Same goes with Wayde Skipper (CHF)

[Mantis]

If Macdougall is in our team next year, it will be a long long year. At best i see him as a 3rd back up CHB. Same goes with Wayde Skipper (CHF)

Behind who?

At present I would see him as our 3rd best tall defender behind Harris and Williams. I thought along with a few other WOOF contributors that he was one of the few plusses from the last 3 or 4 games. He showed he could play a role in defence and hold his own, a defence that was under siege at the time.

[LostDoggy]

Behind Williams and Wight. Even if Wight hasnt got the strength yet, i would prefer to play him. Macdougal=Bandy

[Sockeye Salmon]

Behind who?

At present I would see him as our 3rd best tall defender behind Harris and Williams. I thought along with a few other WOOF contributors that he was one of the few plusses from the last 3 or 4 games. He showed he could play a role in defence and hold his own, a defence that was under siege at the time.

If Eade intends to play Williams at CHF, Mcdougall suddenly becomes very important.

[LostDoggy]

If Macdougall is in our team next year, it will be a long long year. At best i see him as a 3rd back up CHB. Same goes with Wayde Skipper (CHF)

I don't want to sound negative with you Jerry but you seem to take the easy option of just canning everyone at the club. Now that's very easy to do seeing the way we finished the season off because it gives you the ammunition but we have to look at the players we have and see how to best utilise them. Like Mantis mentioned, I thought the way that McDougall finished off the season was encouraging and I certainly have him in the mix as a CHB option for us.

You can just keep shooting everyone down or occasionally offer up some better alternatives within the group that we have so we can challenge some of your observations.

[LostDoggy]

B) Morris Harris Hargrave
HB) Gilbee Willams Griffen*
(*Everitt, Addison, etc)
I have been watching Mcdougall since he was 17yrs old. Dont think he will make it. Not quick enough in the body or mind.

[LostDoggy]

B) Morris Harris Hargrave
HB) Gilbee Willams Griffen*
(*Everitt, Addison, etc)
I have been watching Mcdougall since he was 17yrs old. Dont think he will make it. Not quick enough in the body or mind.

I don't think you have seen a lot of him as a defender and from my perspective he could be a good one for us.

[LostDoggy]

I have seen him move and play. Maybe he will surprise me, I doubt it very much. I like the way Cameron Wight moves, I have a lot more faith in him

[mjp]

I have been watching Mcdougall since he was 17yrs old. Dont think he will make it. Not quick enough in the body or mind.

Me too. He is quick enough in the body though - he is even quick enough in the mind. But in previous seasons - and early in 2007 - he really did seem to just wait for the game to come to him.

His efforts as a tall defender towards the end of 2007 were a good sign - I remain unconvinced he could do that for 22 weeks - but they were a good sign.

I would actually take a somewhat different view of a long year - playing Williams at CHF. Does anyone really think he has the footy smarts to play as a leading forward?

[Raw Toast]

His efforts as a tall defender towards the end of 2007 were a good sign - I remain unconvinced he could do that for 22 weeks - but they were a good sign.

Agree that McDougall seemed much more promising as a defender. I'm pretty hopeful that he turned the corner a bit, seemed more like a natural defender to me - he'll be taken to the ball rather than having to create the play from scratch. You've seen more of him than anyone else though.

I think we've got the makings of an excellent back half. It's sort of crept under the radar a bit because it's young and we're yet to shut down opposition teams (for a variety of reasons much discussed elsewhere). Hopefully this year we can give our defence a fair go and they start to deliver.


I would actually take a somewhat different view of a long year - playing Williams at CHF. Does anyone really think he has the footy smarts to play as a leading forward?

I don't know about Williams at CHF. At times he showed the ability to read the play well as a defender, but I doubt he's currently got the smarts to create play as a leading forward (maybe he can develop them).

Both Shaggy and Everitt seem pretty footy-smart, but I like them best running forward from defence, or perhaps sometimes from a wing. A lot depends I think, on whether Minson can develop as a deep-ish forward. If he can at least break even in contests and help bring the ball to crumbers while taking a few marks (a bit like Morgan, though hopefully better), then there's opportunities for players like Hargrave and Everitt to play like Murphy with long searching leads. Tiller could do this as well.

If Minson fails then the search is on for someone who can take a few contested marks and create a decent contest. Williams and Wight might both get a chance, while Skipper will be in the frame as well.

In terms of our backline, I reckon Ackermanis and Harbrow will both spend a bit more time down back to compensate for the loss of McMahon. Both are a fair bit shorter than Jordy but might be able to use their stockier frames to greater effect in one-on-one contests. If Higgins can lock down a FP/HFF type-role then that'll free these two up a bit (Lynch might come in for some more cameos as well). We might even play a bit like Adelaide at times, with our wings dropping back into defence to clog things up and create space for our forwards to lead into (this all presumes the game plan is tweaked so that some forwards at least are encouraged to lead).

[Sockeye Salmon]

I am a huge believer that CHF's start their development when they're 7 years old. They're footy fanatics as kids and study the game closely. They learn to read what's going to happen and start to move before others do.

Williams is from a rugby background and I can't see him ever developing that instinct of knowing exactly where and when to run.

Wight had a VFL player for a father and lots of kids born into football families become good forwards (Brown, Richardson, Whitnall before his body gave up). In the very brief time Wight spent at CHF this year he ran to the right spots. It's such a shame he's so poor overhead.

[FrediKanoute]

I would actually take a somewhat different view of a long year - playing Williams at CHF. Does anyone really think he has the footy smarts to play as a leading forward?

Has the physical build, is qquick and has good hands. That said the one thing he lacks that Brown, Pavlich, Reidwolt have is a footy brain. he just doesn't have the smarts to know where to run and I'd query whether its something that can be taught in the short term. One incident that stands out is against WCE when we got thumped, early in the game his judgement was poor, leaving his man and running towards the ball carrier rather than staying with his man and forcing the shot from outside 50. Williams for me will be a CHB, a tough uncompromising CHB, but I think he will struggle as a forward.

[mjp]

For anyone running a 'I told you so' list for Williams at CHF, I think that you can start with:

Me
Sockeye
FrediK

Raw Toast has sat on the fence a bit so I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Mantis]

For anyone running a 'I told you so' list for Williams at CHF, I think that you can start with:

Me
Sockeye
FrediK

Raw Toast has sat on the fence a bit so I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

I'm in..

[westdog54]

For anyone running a 'I told you so' list for Williams at CHF, I think that you can start with:

Me
Sockeye
FrediK

Raw Toast has sat on the fence a bit so I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Add me too.

He has the skill but not the smarts.

[Raw Toast]

For anyone running a 'I told you so' list for Williams at CHF, I think that you can start with:

Me
Sockeye
FrediK

Raw Toast has sat on the fence a bit so I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

I'll hop in off the fence for the CHF list - if need be (and hopefully the need won't be) I wouldn't mind giving him a go from 2010 onwards, but I'd be surprised if he developed the nous to be a leading forward. (He can read the ball off the pack as a defender, so he's not useless in terms of footy smarts and reading the play.)

If Minson fails as a deep forward I reckon Williams might be tried there rather than as CHF - ie not really in a leading role, more of a contested (sometimes marking), get out of jail type option. You need to be able to read the play a bit for this position, but not as much. More need to be where you're team-mates expect you to be.

I still think this would be a tough gig for him, but give him more chance of succeeding it than as a CHF.

[LostDoggy]

Same thoughts maybe? But to name a thread 'is the back line fixed?" after the last couple of seasons we have had is asking for trouble and different opinions

[GVGjr]

Same thoughts maybe? But to name a thread 'is the back line fixed?" after the last couple of seasons we have had is asking for trouble and different opinions

It's simply a question and not something is supposed to cause trouble. Difference of opinions is OK. You might want to keep that in mind.

[LostDoggy]

Personally, I think the issue is further up the ground.

The amount the ball came in to our defensive area was too frequent and difficult for any backline to stop.

We did have sub par years from Jordy, and having Gilbee injured didnt help, but the crux of the problem is up the ground.

Hopefully, Callan or someone similar can play a lockdown role and we can be more accountable which will mean that defence isnt under as much pressure.

If we continue to play the run & gun style, the defence will come under pressure due to our midfielders running in front of the ball.

Eade knows this, that is why we attempted to get a Key Forward in the trade period.

If we structure up more traditionally, our game style will change and less pressure should come onto the defence.

If this happens, I think our defence will be well regarded, because we have the players to make a good defensive unit, the game style just has to change.

[LostDoggy]

I agree with Bulldog Banana, our real problem is the defensive accountability in the midfield including our half forward line and this is what puts the pressure on the defense.

For example the round 21 clash against the Hawks where we got pumped really wasn't solely a problem with the backline rather it was the clear runs through the middle by the Hawks midfield and the quality of delivery to the forwards that caused the rout.
The Hawks midfield is no quicker but it worked bloody hard when it did and didn't have the ball.

I think we have the player in the backline to do the job most weeks but we must get a better midfield structure if we are to make and improvements in 2008.

[bornadog]

I agree with Bulldog Banana, our real problem is the defensive accountability in the midfield including our half forward line and this is what puts the pressure on the defense.

For example the round 21 clash against the Hawks where we got pumped really wasn't solely a problem with the backline rather it was the clear runs through the middle by the Hawks midfield and the quality of delivery to the forwards that caused the rout.
The Hawks midfield is no quicker but it worked bloody hard when it did and didn't have the ball.

I think we have the player in the backline to do the job most weeks but we must get a better midfield structure if we are to make and improvements in 2008.

Yes I agree, the midfield must work a lot harder. The game against West Coast at the Dome, really showed how hard the WC midfield works. The amount of runing Kerr did on the night was unbelievable.

[LostDoggy]

Yes I agree, the midfield must work a lot harder. The game against West Coast at the Dome, really showed how hard the WC midfield works. The amount of runing Kerr did on the night was unbelievable.

In fairness to our midfield players I don't think any of them have the capacity to push themselves at pace like Kerr does over 4 quarters but thats a physcial limitation that they cannot necessarily control. What I am wanting to see is our players run as hard when they have or don't have the ball. Cooney for example is brilliant when he has the ball but rarely runs down players when he is chasing them. This was major gripe with Jordan McMahon and a flaw that a few of our fleet of foot players have.

[dog town]

Does anyone really think he has the footy smarts to play as a leading forward?
Certainly not at this stage. Most of our talls are natural defenders to be honest.

I have seen Harris look like he has half an idea as a forward very early on in his time with us but we cant afford to move him from the backline at this stage. Certainly not a CHF anyway more of an old style FF. I remember him kicking 3 or 4 against Freo in a game where we got smashed. Rohde was coach and it was before Harris went down back as a permanent fixture.

As Scooter highlighted earlier in the year Wight played as a CHF late in the game against West Coast. He looked to be surprisingly capable of getting to the right spots but its a big reach to imagine him having the pure footy talent to really grab hold of the position.

McDougall looked like he reads the game better from behind the ball during his stints down back. That is generally the case with most players.

Everitt looks a natural winger or defender and not a forward for mine. I said that about Rob Murphy though so who knows?

Williams really reminds me of Trent Croad in alot of ways. Loves running in straight lines and carrying the ball then pumping the christ out of the ball with a long kick. It is all just pure instinct with him. Like Croad he may trouble teams up forward due to his pure athletic ability but I think he will be pushing it to ever really be a gun key forward. Teams tried to make Croad a forward with varying success but he always ends up back in his natural position which is CHB. If Williams plays forward then his best chance of nailing the role would probably be from the goal square.

[dog town]

Cooney for example is brilliant when he has the ball but rarely runs down players when he is chasing them. .
I will have to disagree with this one. I have no doubt he could still improve this area of his game (as all of our guys could) but he has been very good in this area for a young guy IMO. He was second at our club for tackles last season and in the top 50 in the competition so I think other players would be more worthy of criticism in this area. I have always found his defensive efforts to be pretty good.

Cooney has a few issues with his game at the moment but for mine his major problem is that he isn't getting enough uncontested footy. He needs to get outside the contest a bit more to build up his stats and get more involved in the play.

At the moment his possessions are all either clearances, hard ball gets, front and squares or leading marks from the goal square. He needs more handball recieves and more running into space. For alot of guys this can be the hardest thing in the world. When the ball is right in front of you some guys find it easy to just go and get it but not so easy to take it upon themselves and bust their gut to get out into space when they might not even get the ball. I dont think Cooney is as confident as he comes across and when he isn't finding the ball in close he rarely takes it upon himself to get outside and get an easy kick particularly when tagged. Certainly dont see his tackling as an issue. Could be more accountable but thats a seperate issue to tackling.

[bornadog]

I dont think Cooney is as confident as he comes across and when he isn't finding the ball in close he rarely takes it upon himself to get outside and get an easy kick particularly when tagged. Certainly dont see his tackling as an issue. Could be more accountable but thats a seperate issue to tackling.

This where Daniel Kerr, is brilliant. He gets the hard ball, but when he doesn't get it he runs to space and creates the play.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Williams really reminds me of Trent Croad in alot of ways. Loves running in straight lines and carrying the ball then pumping the christ out of the ball with a long kick. It is all just pure instinct with him. Like Croad he may trouble teams up forward due to his pure athletic ability but I think he will be pushing it to ever really be a gun key forward. Teams tried to make Croad a forward with varying success but he always ends up back in his natural position which is CHB. If Williams plays forward then his best chance of nailing the role would probably be from the goal square.

Backs up my theory that natural forwards are weaned on the sport. Croad grew up in New Zealand and doesn't have insight of what's going to happen.