Match Committee - Round 6 vs Adelaide

[Eastdog]

If you were on the Bulldogs match committee what changes would you make for our round 6 game against Adelaide at Etihad?

As always a brief explanation for your changes would add a lot of value to the discussion.

[GVGjr]

There should be a few considerations for next weeks game

[azabob]

Out : Stringer, Williams, Gia

In: Dickson, morris, hunter

If Morris isn't fit, Williams stays.

Gia sadly is now way too slow.

[bulldogtragic]

Ins: Dickson, Morris, Hunter, Campbell (If Jones susp)

Out: Stringer, Jong, Gia, Jones (if susp)

Stevens to be ok from report.
Young seems to make some basic errors, but he's tallish, so he's got that going for him.
I don't know enought about Wallis, but he's not been trending well this season,
Williams seems un droppable when not injured, and Roughie is still out.
Minson given a rocket.
Higgins given one too.
In fact most given a rocket, this is the quintessential example of a scoreboard flattering a team.

[Go_Dogs]

I think Jones will be ok, not a lot in it - got low enough.

Out: Stringer, Williams
In: Cordy, Morris

Stringer needs a break. Young/Williams both very average today but we need to continue to persist with Young.

Cordy to replace String and chop out in the ruck, and Moz an automatic in.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Out: Stringer, Williams
In: Cordy, Morris



Cordy was woeful in the 2's.

For mine:

OUT: Stringer, Jong, Williams, Gia
IN: Dickson, Tutt, Morris, Honeychurch

[Greystache]

Cordy was woeful in the 2's.

For mine:

OUT: Stringer, Jong, Williams, Gia
IN: Dickson, Tutt, Morris, Honeychurch

Yep I like those changes. Although I'd be tempted to leave in Gia and drop Minson for Campbell.

[Hotdog60]

I don't think it matters who we pick, the Crows seem to be getting their form back as our form has tilted a little backwards.
It may get ugly if the team doesn't get back to some tough football. It's no good being better in the spread if you can't win it at the contest.
In: Dickson, Morris, Honeychurch, Hunter
Out: Stringer, Williams, Gia, Jong

[azabob]

Yep I like those changes. Although I'd be tempted to leave in Gia and drop Minson for Campbell.

Did you go tonight? Gia is so far off the pace in the open and in play we are a player down.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Yep I like those changes. Although I'd be tempted to leave in Gia and drop Minson for Campbell.

Yep, would be fine with that also.

I probably forgot Hunter - I assume he'll come straight back.

[always right]

Gia had chances to kick three today. Unusually for him he made a poor decision for his second opportunity and fumbled the last one.

In: Honeychurch (lock it in), Campbell, Morris, Tutt or Hunter
Out: Jong, Stringer, Jones (yes he went low but he chose to bump and caught Murphy high), Williams

[G-Mo77]

Dickson would be a lock one would think, Stringer would likely part way.

Hopefully Morris is right to go.

[Remi Moses]

Cordy was woeful in the 2's.

For mine:

OUT: Stringer, Jong, Williams, Gia
IN: Dickson, Tutt, Morris, Honeychurch
I'm in agreeance with this.

[Sedat]

Cordy was woeful in the 2's.

For mine:

OUT: Stringer, Jong, Williams, Gia
IN: Dickson, Tutt, Morris, Honeychurch
I'd keep Jong in and drop Wallis instead. Jong has more flexibility and can perform a role down back and even up forward if his midfield match-up isn't working. Plus he is far quicker than Wallis and no worse with his disposal.

I'm worried about Wallis. Thought the tagging role was going to be the making of him late last season but his complete and utter lack of hurt factor with ball in hand, and his plodding pace, means that he has to keep his opponent to single-figure possessions just to break even. He completely failed to control an out of form midget like Murphy tonight so what hope does he have against faster and bigger opposition mids?

Stringer was terrible in the first half but he really shone in the 2nd half with incisive passages of play and smart running to position and distribution. If he is dropped I'm ok with it, but I feel like he turned something of a corner in the 2nd half tonight and started to give us what we need and what he is capable of.

[F'scary]

Out: Jong (showed his inexperience too often); Stringer (last quarter effort was ok but first three were woeful); Gia (too slow); Wallis (awful game); Minson (simply awful); Higgins (took it too easy - not acceptable); Cooney (same as Higgins); Williams (embarrassing display).


In: Morris, Dickson, Tutt, Honeychurch, Roberts, Campbell, Hunter, Johannisen

[The bulldog tragician]

I'd keep Jong in and drop Wallis instead. Jong has more flexibility and can perform a role down back and even up forward if his midfield match-up isn't working. Plus he is far quicker than Wallis and no worse with his disposal.

I'm worried about Wallis. Thought the tagging role was going to be the making of him late last season but his complete and utter lack of hurt factor with ball in hand, and his plodding pace, means that he has to keep his opponent to single-figure possessions just to break even. He completely failed to control an out of form midget like Murphy tonight so what hope does he have against faster and bigger opposition mids?

Stringer was terrible in the first half but he really shone in the 2nd half with incisive passages of play and smart running to position and distribution. If he is dropped I'm ok with it, but I feel like he turned something of a corner in the 2nd half tonight and started to give us what we need and what he is capable of.
I'm glad you made that comment on Stringer, I thought I was the only one who saw some very heartening signs from him, I'm particularly surprised at his quick hands. I would keep him in, i think. He gets marked harshly by some but learning to be a forward with our haphazard delivery will take a while.

[G-Mo77]

I'm glad you made that comment on Stringer, I thought I was the only one who saw some very heartening signs from him, I'm particularly surprised at his quick hands. I would keep him in, i think. He gets marked harshly by some but learning to be a forward with our haphazard delivery will take a while.

Fair points by both of you but is he doing enough to hold Dickson out? He's not just knocking at the door, he's ready to break it down.

I can't see Dickson coming in and keep our current forward structure. Does Dickson just wait longer?

[comrade]

Cordy was woeful in the 2's.

For mine:

OUT: Stringer, Jong, Williams, Gia
IN: Dickson, Tutt, Morris, Honeychurch

Happy with these changes. Williams and Stringer are definite, IMO.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Yep I like those changes. Although I'd be tempted to leave in Gia and drop Minson for Campbell.

I would bring Campbell in for Stringer to give us a target up forward . Honeychurch was a standout for Footscray today and an obvious replacement for Jong. On what we saw from both Williams and Talia today I would think that Austin is a better option. Apart from Crameri and Dahlhaus the forward line lacked penetration which may see both Dickson and Hunter return. I thought we had at least 8 players that were not up to speed in the senior line up. The loss of Roughead and Morris left our defence in complete disarray.

[boydogs]

Out: Young, Giansiracusa, Stringer
In: Morris, Hunter, Dickson

[LostDoggy]

Out: Young, Jong, Wilbur, Williams, Gia
In: Roberts, Hunter, Campbell, Morris, Dickson

I may be going to extremes with Wilbur but I'm still fuming and he was just horrid today. Maybe a weeks rest will do him good. Campbell was ok in the 2's - couldn't go much worse and at least adds value up front. Then we can throw jones-boy in the ruck again boyoboywowweeeeeeee.....

[MrMahatma]

We aren't gonna drop the AA ruck from last year due to one bad game.

Personally I didn't notice he was horrendous. He had some mate though either way.

[jeemak]

Yep I like those changes. Although I'd be tempted to leave in Gia and drop Minson for Campbell.

Has Campbell done anything these past weeks that suggests he's ready to take the number one ruck spot, irrespective of Will's poor performances?

I'm not too phased with Bringing one of Campbell and Cordy in, I don't think we're being served well by having only Will as a ruck.

Out - Stringer, Jong, Talia
In - Campbell, Tutt, Morris

I don't like bringing a young player in for one game only, though it's clear to me Talia was only brought in out of necessity. Williams played a good game last week after coming in under done. He gets one more week. Irrespective of the poor assistance from the midfield he let himself down on too many occasions. I'd be tempted to give him a half forward next week as well depending on how the game is playing out.

Tutt shouldn't have been dropped last week. Don't know how he went this week in the two's though. If not very well I'd be OK with Dickson coming in for him. Jong has been OK but at this point I don't think he has developed beyond being an effort player, and I saw him tire at times last week and think he'll do well from going back to Footscray to pick up more ball under less pressure.

Stringer improved as the game progressed, but he still doesn't do enough of the basics properly to justify receiving games each week. He also doesn't get enough of the ball or score when he does get it.

[always right]

Roberts was excellent for Footscray and can't be far away from a senior opportunity.

[jeemak]

I'm glad you made that comment on Stringer, I thought I was the only one who saw some very heartening signs from him, I'm particularly surprised at his quick hands. I would keep him in, i think. He gets marked harshly by some but learning to be a forward with our haphazard delivery will take a while.

He's very very good at gaining the ball and navigating with hands through tight spots. He's also very quick on his feet in close.

[soupman]

As much as it's tempting I don't think there will be large quantity of changes this week, McCartney just isn't that sort of guy. My changes are as follows.

Williams for Morris (otherwise Roberts)
Williams is not good enough to be a key defender with us, he is too easily beaten in the contest and this has been a hallmark of his game forever and ever. For an ex rugby player it's bizarre that the thing he lacks most is strength and an ability to hold his ground. Morris comes back in, but if not Roberts does. It's time we tell Williams he is a depth key defender only. This means no more being rushed back no more blind faith, and if either or both of Talia and Roberts are available their development gets prioritised. Williams has the rest of the season to convince us he is a key forward.

Jong for Honeychurch.
Jong has struggled these last two weeks, he was barely sighted in the second half tonight. Send him back to the reserves where he can run games out better and hopefully work on getting the ball under pressure and working his way out of those situations. Honeychurch was very impressive in the VFL today and has earnt his debut.

Jones (if suspended) for Campbell.
Campbell was average in the VFL but Cordy was worse and we need someone who can pretend to be a keyforward/ruckman if Jones isn't available.

Giansiracusa for Hunter (otherwise Dickson)
This depends on why Hunter was dropped. If it was just for a rest then I think he will be brought straight back in, if it was for form I think he will play VFL and Dickson gets his reward. I wanted to get Tutt back in as I think he deserves it but I can't see the MC overlooking any of the other three mentioned in this equation.

I would like to drop Stringer, but having wanted his nonselection for two weeks now I've realised the MC are clearly assessing him on some other model to me, and that after a match where he actually did something (not a lot, very little really, but more than the last two weeks) that they won't drop him.

[Greystache]

Has Campbell done anything these past weeks that suggests he's ready to take the number one ruck spot, irrespective of Will's poor performances?

I'm not too phased with Bringing one of Campbell and Cordy in, I don't think we're being served well by having only Will as a ruck.


Campbell's form has been solid rather than spectacular, but he's shown plenty at AFL level and has big upside. Minson's just getting beaten week in week out (including throughout the preseason). Change is needed.

I've wanted Campbell in the side all season, if he was playing the 2nd ruck/forward role today then chances are Henderson would've had to play in defence and not be able to exploit our poor key defensive options.

[jeemak]

Campbell's form has been solid rather than spectacular, but he's shown plenty at AFL level and has big upside. Minson's just getting beaten week in week out (including throughout the preseason). Change is needed.

I've wanted Campbell in the side all season, if he was playing the 2nd ruck/forward role today then chances are Henderson would've had to play in defence and not be able to exploit our poor key defensive options.

That's fair enough. Though, don't you think we'd be better served with Will having another ruck in the side? He's been getting beaten down week in week out for a while now, and might benefit from some time on the ground up forward to gain an opportunity to contribute in ways other than at ruck and stoppages.

Irrespective of whether Campbell is up to rucking at senior level for a substantial period of time, I don't think running with one ruck and a back up of Jones is going to cut it. If Roughead was in the side, and we were playing Williams forward we could put the latter back and the former in the ruck to relieve throughout different periods of the game to give our main ruck a rest.

Campbell alone at senior level would be found out. That's not a slight on him, I just don't think his development as a player is there yet.

[LostDoggy]

Out: Jong (showed his inexperience too often); Stringer (last quarter effort was ok but first three were woeful); Gia (too slow); Wallis (awful game); Minson (simply awful); Higgins (took it too easy - not acceptable); Cooney (same as Higgins); Williams (embarrassing display).


In: Morris, Dickson, Tutt, Honeychurch, Roberts, Campbell, Hunter, Johannisen

So Jong's main failing is inexperience, but the best option is dropping him?


Fair points by both of you but is he doing enough to hold Dickson out? He's not just knocking at the door, he's ready to break it down.

I can't see Dickson coming in and keep our current forward structure. Does Dickson just wait longer?

Can you see Dickson playing when we make finals in years to come?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

So Jong's main failing is inexperience, but the best option is dropping him?

Can't speak for the other poster, but Jong has many failings, least of all inexperience.

- Cannot find the ball
- Cannot dispose of the ball well by hand/foot
- Extremely poor positioning = second to every contest, which sometimes makes him look as though he's going half hearted
- Has a bad, bad habit of getting tackled and letting the ball spill out
- Not fit enough

At times when it's a clear objective he can be tough (ie. spoiling the ball in a big pack) but his lack of footy nous has him second guessing a lot. He's not without hope of making it, but we have a LOT better players on our list that should be getting games long before him.

[The Pie Man]

We aren't gonna drop the AA ruck from last year due to one bad game.

Personally I didn't notice he was horrendous. He had some mate though either way.

Yesterday isn't an isolated occurrence, he's been poor all year. I doubt we'll make that change, but would be supportive if we did.

[Ozza]

Unfortunately with Roughead out- we are forced to play Williams and/or Talia.
Can't wait til Morris replaces either.

Jong out for Hunter
Stringer for Dickson

Would be happy to see Tutt in the side for his run and spread.

[Pickenitup]

In Campbell Dickson Hunter Morris
Out Williams Stringer Jong Gia

Dickson and Campbell kicked 10 goals between them last year against Crows they Must play Will Needs More help and Tommy can do that a forward line of LJ Crammers And TC can really stretch there defence especially if Rutten misses.Gia needs a spell for a week or two just looks spent atm.

[always right]

In Campbell Dickson Hunter Morris
Out Williams Stringer Jong Gia

Dickson and Campbell kicked 10 goals between them last year against Crows they Must play Will Needs More help and Tommy can do that a forward line of LJ Crammers And TC can really stretch there defence especially if Rutten misses.Gia needs a spell for a week or two just looks spent atm.

Surprised at your Gia comment. He played approx one and a half quarters yesterday and could/should have kicked three goals.

[Go_Dogs]

Cordy was woeful in the 2's.

Fair enough. Perhaps we go with Campbell then - we need to do something both to help Minson and hopefully create some headaches for the Crows in our forward line. Going to be a difficult week at the selection table, I really wish we had Smith and Hrovat ready to come in.

I'd be pretty tempted to give Jong the gig on Dangerfield this week, and just scrag him, put plenty of body work on him. Jong has the size and pace to match him, not the nous - but it would be a great test for the young man. Wallis to Sloane or Thompson.

I'd really like to bring either Honeychurch or Tutt in too - Honey may allow Dahl more midfield opportunity and Tutt was OK the previous week and the Crows aren't an overly quick side - if we can find some more leg speed on the outside we could trouble them.

[azabob]

Surprised at your Gia comment. He played approx one and a half quarters yesterday and could/should have kicked three goals.

My concern with Gia is I think the reason he didn't kick 3 is because his body was a few yards too slow and he is starting to be exposed further up the ground. He is struggling with players spreading from the contest and when its a one on one or a two on two he is limited in how much he can influence it.

[Scorlibo]

Can't speak for the other poster, but Jong has many failings, least of all inexperience.

- Cannot find the ball
- Cannot dispose of the ball well by hand/foot
- Extremely poor positioning = second to every contest, which sometimes makes him look as though he's going half hearted
- Has a bad, bad habit of getting tackled and letting the ball spill out
- Not fit enough

At times when it's a clear objective he can be tough (ie. spoiling the ball in a big pack) but his lack of footy nous has him second guessing a lot. He's not without hope of making it, but we have a LOT better players on our list that should be getting games long before him.

You've summed it up well. I was surprised we didn't delist him last year, and even more surprised (pleasantly) when he was able to come into the side and contribute for a couple of matches. But like you say, some of his play in close is very costly and negates the tenacious play he produces at other times.


Yesterday isn't an isolated occurrence, he's been poor all year. I doubt we'll make that change, but would be supportive if we did.

This is a bad idea. Will might not be in form, but he at least gives us a contest at every stoppage. If we played Campbell, he wouldn't be able to ruck all game and wouldn't be nearly as competitive for the portion he did ruck for. We'd have to bring in both Ayce and Campbell to make it even a little bit feasible.



Williams for Morris (otherwise Roberts)
Williams is not good enough to be a key defender with us, he is too easily beaten in the contest and this has been a hallmark of his game forever and ever. For an ex rugby player it's bizarre that the thing he lacks most is strength and an ability to hold his ground. Morris comes back in, but if not Roberts does. It's time we tell Williams he is a depth key defender only. This means no more being rushed back no more blind faith, and if either or both of Talia and Roberts are available their development gets prioritised. Williams has the rest of the season to convince us he is a key forward.


Must admit I'm a little surprised at the heat Tom Williams is getting given last week he was one of our best. Certainly he had a stinker and looks to be lacking a bit of strength at the moment, but sheesh what you've said here is harsh, soup! Still offers more than Talia at this stage imo.

[GVGjr]

I can't see us making too many changes but I'm going with 4.

Ins Morris, Hunter, Campbell, Tutt
Out Talia, Jong, Stringer, Giansiracusa

The return of our best defender is a no brainer. Talia just needs a bit more time at Williamstown
Hunter replacing Jong is mainly down to skill level. Hunter has some lessons to learn but maybe they can be done at the senior level
Stringer had some encouraging signs but with Minson needing assistance Campbell can provide a forward target and 5 minutes in the ruck here and there.
Tutt will give us more run and spread than Gia against a team choc full of running players.

I could make the argument to keep a few of the outs.

Perhaps the MC might look at a good news story in a debut of Honeychurch.

[lemmon]

Out- Stringer, Jong, Young

In- Campbell, Hunter, Morris

Stringer simply needs to go down, he's getting nothing out of this spell in the firsts, Campbell provides the extra tall and gives Will a chop out.

Jong adds more of the same and I thought his job on Kade Simpson was poor yesterday, made a lot of mistakes.

Young wasn't our backlines worst but he isn't a tall, so shouldn't be played there. He is competing with Wood, Murphy, Higgins and the other running backs so that's where he should be played. Williams and Talia simply play because of the dearth of options

[Remi Moses]

One issue with the sub rule is the lack of warm up for a player coming on.
I just wonder why the sub isn't in the rooms getting some touch and warming up.

[Hotdog60]

I can't see us making too many changes but I'm going with 4.

Ins Morris, Hunter, Campbell, Tutt
Out Talia, Jong, Stringer, Giansiracusa

The return of our best defender is a no brainer. Talia just needs a bit more time at Williamstown
Hunter replacing Jong is mainly down to skill level. Hunter has some lessons to learn but maybe they can be done at the senior level
Stringer had some encouraging signs but with Minson needing assistance Campbell can provide a forward target and 5 minutes in the ruck here and there.
Tutt will give us more run and spread than Gia against a team choc full of running players.

I could make the argument to keep a few of the outs.

Perhaps the MC might look at a good news story in a debut of Honeychurch.

That's a bit tough GVGjr. Not only drop him to the VFL but out of our team as well.;)

[1eyedog]

I'm concerned that Gia has gone on one year too long, not because of his performance yesterday but because he seems to be limited to one trick where he makes contact with the defender and then doubles back goal side. Problem is he cannot get any separation from the opposition due to a lack of pace so it rarely works. I've also noticed that defenders are on to it and close it down and once again the ball goes shooting out of the back half. I know Gia sucked Ellis in the week before but I'm concerned when Gia is one on one in any situation these days.

Ins: Jabba the Tutt, Hunter and Morris
Outs: Williams, Wallis and Gia

Tutt comes in for Wally to provide some run, Morris is Williams' replacement and Hunter comes in for Gia.

[F'scary]

So Jong's main failing is inexperience, but the best option is dropping him?


Yep, get some more of the basics into him in the VFL.

[LostDoggy]

Question: Danger has just hit form, can't see Wallis going with him pace wise is Picken the answer? OR could Tutt play a run with role on Danger? He has the pace? Anyway I feel the need for speed.

Ins: Tutt, Honeychurch, Hunter, Morris
Out: Wallis, Gia (give him a rest), Jong, Williams

[GVGjr]

That's a bit tough GVGjr. Not only drop him to the VFL but out of our team as well.;)

Old habits die hard

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Question: Danger has just hit form, can't see Wallis going with him pace wise is Picken the answer? OR could Tutt play a run with role on Danger? He has the pace? Anyway I feel the need for speed.

Ins: Tutt, Honeychurch, Hunter, Morris
Out: Wallis, Gia (give him a rest), Jong, Williams

Picken looks better suited in defence and with the likes of Murphy and Morris provides steadiness and experience. Wallis lack of leg speed and class makes his task difficult against quality players such as Murphy and Dangerfield. I wonder whether Wood could be suited with his pace and size in this role.

[LostDoggy]

Picken looks better suited in defence and with the likes of Murphy and Morris provides steadiness and experience. Wallis lack of leg speed and class makes his task difficult against quality players such as Murphy and Dangerfield. I wonder whether Wood could be suited with his pace and size in this role.

Wood on Danger is an interesting match up. Something we should try. Wallis definitely doesn't have the leg speed. As much as I love Mitch, he struggled against Murphy yesterday and was tagging Cotchin a few weeks back when he was BOG.

Ins: Hunter, Morris, Tutt
Outs: Young, Jong, Stevens

I hope Bontempelli stays in the side.

[soupman]

Must admit I'm a little surprised at the heat Tom Williams is getting given last week he was one of our best. Certainly he had a stinker and looks to be lacking a bit of strength at the moment, but sheesh what you've said here is harsh, soup! Still offers more than Talia at this stage imo.

I think the only area where he offers more than Talia at this stage is disposal. He has never lacked strength, but has always been very easily worked out of marking contests. Any marking contest which requires him to stand his ground is dangerous as he too often gets nudged out of the way as if he isn't expecting body contact.

I think, despite his lack of continuity, he has shown that he is not a good key defender, but rather a poor one that occasionally plays decent games. His skillset is better suited to playing as a leading forward where he can dictate how he approaches contests. After 10 years in the system he still concedes too many soft contests and I'd rather we put games into developing guys like Roberts and Talia to see if they are the future instead of postponing the realisation that Williams is not.

[Hotdog60]

Tom looks more of a forward than a defender. When he has gone forward he is at least on the move which is a lot better than trying to body the defender. The question is can we fit him in.

[Doc26]

MRP findings recently posted up on AFL.com

Liam free to play thanks in part to OUR medical team providing the all clear on Marc Murphy's injury :)


Contact between the Western Bulldogs' Liam Jones and Carlton's Marc Murphy from the fourth quarter of Sunday's match was assessed. Murphy is running to the contest when Jones runs to shepherd for his team-mate, Liam Picken. Jones bumps Murphy within five metres of the football and makes significant body contact and high contact. After viewing all the available footage and receiving a medical report from the Western Bulldogs Football Club, it was the view of the panel that the force used by Jones was below that required to constitute a reportable offence. No further action was taken.

[always right]

MRP findings recently posted up on AFL.com

Liam free to play thanks in part to OUR medical team providing the all clear on Marc Murphy's injury :)

I'm surprised. Must be a typo......why would we be providing a report on Murphy?

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

In. Campbell Hunter Morris
Out. Stringer Gia Williams
We need big Tom in the team as a target up forward and to support Will in the ruck. Will was taken apart by Warnock and the time was right for Campbell to try another tact.
Stringer needs more time with our Footscray VFL team to really show that he is good enough. I like Hunter's smartness on the forward line and is preferred to Gia and the temptation to bring back Dickson. I would rather see Bontempelli become an established player before we introduce Honeychurch as another first year player. Morris if fit is an automatic selection whilst Williams misses. I think Talia has more upside and retains his position in defence. Wallis stays as the tag for Sloane and I would like to see Wood take the explosive Dangerfield. Picken needs to play in defence which together with the likes of Murphy and Morris provides steadiness and experience.
This is a winnable game providing we get our match ups right.

[MrMahatma]

MRP findings recently posted up on AFL.com

Liam free to play thanks in part to OUR medical team providing the all clear on Marc Murphy's injury :)

That's good.

Also, is that the first bump to get off at the MRP in the past couple of years? It was a good hit.

[Scorlibo]

I think the only area where he offers more than Talia at this stage is disposal. He has never lacked strength, but has always been very easily worked out of marking contests. Any marking contest which requires him to stand his ground is dangerous as he too often gets nudged out of the way as if he isn't expecting body contact.

I think, despite his lack of continuity, he has shown that he is not a good key defender, but rather a poor one that occasionally plays decent games. His skillset is better suited to playing as a leading forward where he can dictate how he approaches contests. After 10 years in the system he still concedes too many soft contests and I'd rather we put games into developing guys like Roberts and Talia to see if they are the future instead of postponing the realisation that Williams is not.

I guess I'm willing to postpone the realisation a little longer then. He deserves a decent run at it this season to convince us and the coaching staff one way or the other.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Williams go forward next week and act as support for Minno in the ruck.

In: Hunter, Morris.
Out: Jong, Cooney (rest).

Willing to give Stringer another go this week after an improved showing, even though I thought he should have been dropped last week.

[Ozza]

I'll preface this by saying that I can understand that, in theory, Wallis doesn't have the pace for Dangerfield....but has everyone forgotten that he tagged, and beat him just last year?!

He was also praised, broadly across WOOF for his sterling job on Ward just a week ago.

[bornadog]

In: Morris, Dickson (deserves a go after three weeks of kicking plenty goals and improving his tackling and pressure)

Out: Young, Gia (The coach said he may not play some weeks)

[Scorlibo]

I'll preface this by saying that I can understand that, in theory, Wallis doesn't have the pace for Dangerfield....but has everyone forgotten that he tagged, and beat him just last year?!

He was also praised, broadly across WOOF for his sterling job on Ward just a week ago.

As was Williams. People have short memories Ozza.

IIRC Wallis also towelled up Murphy last year, so last year's tagging jobs might not be the best indication of his ability to go with the best this year. Nevertheless, I'd be sticking with him too.

[LostDoggy]

In: Hunter, Morris.
Out: Jong, Williams

Williams should stay on the list at the end of the year as long as we understand he is not best 22 but a flexible, depth KP player.

[bornadog]

I think Honeychurch will come in this week.

[always right]

I think Honeychurch will come in this week.

I'd like to be as sure of winning tatts. Lock him in.

[bornadog]

I'd like to be as sure of winning tatts. Lock him in.

for Jong?

[Mofra]

A side note - many have Hunter coming straight back in, after not playing last weekend.

Do we know for sure if he was just rested or is there a niggle he is dealing with?

His vision and smarts in the F50 are always welcome, but I'm hesitant to have developing 2nd year players playing under duress.

[MrMahatma]

How's Honeychurch's skills? Pace?

[soupman]

How's Honeychurch's skills? Pace?

He's been compared to Dahlhaus but I think he is more like Boyd.

Probably quicker than Boyd but based on his match on sunday (Honeychurch's) has a similar work rate and ability to get from stoppage to stoppage as well as perform as a good link up player, and a decent kick which isn't particularly damaging. He probably has Dahlhaus intensity but I can't see him being as exciting, but with his tenacity he could be someone capable of halving contests against the odds like Dahl does.

[always right]

He's been compared to Dahlhaus but I think he is more like Boyd.

Probably quicker than Boyd but based on his match on sunday (Honeychurch's) has a similar work rate and ability to get from stoppage to stoppage as well as perform as a good link up player, and a decent kick which isn't particularly damaging. He probably has Dahlhaus intensity but I can't see him being as exciting, but with his tenacity he could be someone capable of halving contests against the odds like Dahl does.

Agree with this. In some respects he's also like Smith in that he loves a contest but doesn't really hurt teams with his disposal. He'll become a fan favourite but has limitations he needs to work on.

[always right]

for Jong?

Most likely.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

He's been compared to Dahlhaus but I think he is more like Boyd.

Probably quicker than Boyd but based on his match on sunday (Honeychurch's) has a similar work rate and ability to get from stoppage to stoppage as well as perform as a good link up player, and a decent kick which isn't particularly damaging. He probably has Dahlhaus intensity but I can't see him being as exciting, but with his tenacity he could be someone capable of halving contests against the odds like Dahl does.
There was big wraps on Honeychurch when he was with the Eastern Ranges and they were surprised that he lasted until 60 in the draft. He was outstanding on Saturday against the Northern Blues. Very courageous and a prolific ball winner.

[Ozza]

I like to see us 'up' our experience factor this week vs Adelaide.

If Honeychurch were to come in - you run the risk of having too many inexperienced players. I don't think we should be playing ALL of Bontempelli, Jong, Honeychurch, Talia, Stringer and Hunter for instance. Definitely not all of the first 3.

My preference is Dickson for Stringer.
Morris to replace either one of Young, Talia or Williams (Adelaide have 2 talls - so its whether we choose to play Morris tall or medium/small).
If Hunter is good to go - then I would have him replace Jong, and therefore the likes of Cooney and Stevens spend less time fwd, more time in the middle.

[anfo27]

Ins: Morris, Dickson & Hunter or Honeychurch
Outs:
Williams- If there is a worst defender in the league i have yet to see him. Hoping he is out of contact at seasons end cause i'm sick to death of seeing him beaten so easily & consistently. Apparently he did well against GWS but i have not seen that game yet.
Gia- Would like to see him given some time in the VFL so someone like Honeychurch can get a game. Would be disappointed if Gia played more than 15 games in the seniors.
Stringer- Needs a spell & Dickson has some form under his belt.

[DISHLICKERS]

The fact we go into games with 1 ruck is totally unacceptable.

In - One of Campbell/Cordy.

Out - Gia

At Whitten Oval we do not recongnize the value of playing big bodies.

[bornadog]

At Whitten Oval we do not recognize the value of playing big bodies.

I think that is changing as we recruit the big (future) bodies in the midfield like Macrae, Stringer, Bonts as well as Crameri to bolster the strength in the forward line.

[Hot_Doggies]

He's been compared to Dahlhaus but I think he is more like Boyd.

Probably quicker than Boyd but based on his match on sunday (Honeychurch's) has a similar work rate and ability to get from stoppage to stoppage as well as perform as a good link up player, and a decent kick which isn't particularly damaging. He probably has Dahlhaus intensity but I can't see him being as exciting, but with his tenacity he could be someone capable of halving contests against the odds like Dahl does.

Honeychurch is a better kick than both Boyd and Dahlhaus.

[Go_Dogs]

Honeychurch is a better kick than both Boyd and Dahlhaus.

Dahl's kicking has improved, whilst it was seen as a bit of a weakness as a junior, I think his field kicking has become fairly reliable and when combined with his good decision making, he goes OK.

If Honeychurch can develop into a strong, courageous inside player with good foot skills that would be a great result for the club. Looking forward to seeing him get a senior game soon.

[Hotdog60]

How long is Goodes suspended for? If it was a week could he become a inclusion this week.

[Greystache]

How long is Goodes suspended for? If it was a week could he become a inclusion this week.

1 week

[chef]

Shouldn't be anywhere now this team unless we have a heap of injuries.

[always right]

Honeychurch is a better kick than both Boyd and Dahlhaus.

Let's see how his kicking stands up under AFL pressure before making such statements.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Id like to see Morris and Dickson come in

Out of Talia, Young and Williams I'd probably take Talia out.

If Honeychurch debuts then thats fine with me - the guy seems a massive winner and much like Dahlhaus before him seems to have made every post a winner in year 1. The perfect rookie - a guy who would have been drafted higher if not for his height.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Honeychurch reminds me of Picken more than anyone else. He has that same drive and determination at every single contest, on Sunday he simply willed himself to contests and just kept working so impressively hard. I wouldn't say his disposal is great, but it's solid/adequate and should improve as he gets fitter/stronger in coming years.

If he does come in, I suspect we will play him predominately forward, but he certainly looks a natural ruck rover to me.

[ledge]

http://m.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2014-04-22/club-optimistic-on-morris-return

[LostDoggy]

Let's see how his kicking stands up under AFL pressure before making such statements.

^^
AFL football is a different game to under 18s or the league below.. Some players can step up and perform even better, some players can go between various levels seamlessly, and some can't hack it.
I like the sound of Honeychurch's competitive spirit though, sounds like he can make it.

[soupman]

Honeychurch is a better kick than both Boyd and Dahlhaus.

Boyds kick is actually decent, it's his decision making that's crap. And Dahlhaus is the opposite, although his kicking isn't terrible. I'm hoping Honeychurch has a bit of each. His kicking certainly doesn't look like it's going to cut opposition defences apart, but it looks reliable enough that with good decisions could be used well.

I certainly don't think based on what I've seen though that it will be substantially better than either of the two above mentioned players.

[LostDoggy]

Hunter for Jong
Morris for Williams
Campbell for Stringer
Honeychurch (sub) for Gia

[Hot_Doggies]

Boyds kick is actually decent, it's his decision making that's crap. And Dahlhaus is the opposite, although his kicking isn't terrible. I'm hoping Honeychurch has a bit of each. His kicking certainly doesn't look like it's going to cut opposition defences apart, but it looks reliable enough that with good decisions could be used well.

I certainly don't think based on what I've seen though that it will be substantially better than either of the two above mentioned players.

Disagree. Boyds kicking is poor. His short kicks constantly fall short of the target.

[Ozza]

Gee Boyd gets a hell of a lot of whacks on here, for a bloke who has been an enormous contributor for the club for a long time, and arguably our best performed player so far this season.

Perhaps we could change the record.

[1eyedog]

Boyd's a great accumulator, wins a heap of contested ball, is as tough as nails and is usually in the right spot but he is a poor kick on the run, simple as that.

[DISHLICKERS]

I think that is changing as we recruit the big (future) bodies in the midfield like Macrae, Stringer, Bonts as well as Crameri to bolster the strength in the forward line.

I agree with you that there is some change but I was referring more to players such as

- White at Collingwood (big body who impacts a contest)
- Currie at North
- Hale at Hawthorn
- Cats have McIntosh Blivacs and Simpson one of them at least will play that role of impacting a contest.



I would say that none of these are gun players but they play their role to perfection.

I was thinking more of a crash and bash key position, these type of players we dont value IMO.

I would say if any of these players were on our list we would not be playing them.

[bornadog]

I agree with you that there is some change but I was referring more to players such as

- White at Collingwood (big body who impacts a contest)
- Currie at North
- Hale at Hawthorn
- Cats have McIntosh Blivacs and Simpson one of them at least will play that role of impacting a contest.



I would say that none of these are gun players but they play their role to perfection.

I was thinking more of a crash and bash key position, these type of players we dont value IMO.

I would say if any of these players were on our list we would not be playing them.

Jones is starting to play like that.

[1eyedog]

I agree with you that there is some change but I was referring more to players such as

- White at Collingwood (big body who impacts a contest)
- Currie at North
- Hale at Hawthorn
- Cats have McIntosh Blivacs and Simpson one of them at least will play that role of impacting a contest.



I would say that none of these are gun players but they play their role to perfection.

I was thinking more of a crash and bash key position, these type of players we dont value IMO.

I would say if any of these players were on our list we would not be playing them.

I would not call Currie (Who has only played 3 games), Hale or any of McIntosh Blivacs and Simpson crash and bash players. They're ruckman with relatively thin physiques. Hale is a great contested marking player. When I think crash and bash I think Mitch Hahn, Leigh Brown, players like Michael Hurley.

I'd wager we'd be playing Hale or White if they were on our list probably McIntosh too.

[DISHLICKERS]

I would not call Currie (Who has only played 3 games), Hale or any of McIntosh Blivacs and Simpson crash and bash players. They're ruckman with relatively thin physiques. Hale is a great contested marking player. When I think crash and bash I think Mitch Hahn, Leigh Brown, players like Michael Hurley.

I'd wager we'd be playing Hale or White if they were on our list probably McIntosh too.

I beg to differ I dont think we would be playing them.

Hale, White, Currie and McIntosh all came from other clubs and we had the chance to look at them but again we dont value that type of player.

[always right]

I beg to differ I dont think we would be playing them.

Hale, White, Currie and McIntosh all came from other clubs and we had the chance to look at them but again we dont value that type of player.

We would play Hale in a heartbeat. Campbell is superior to Currie IMO.

[soupman]

I beg to differ I dont think we would be playing them.

Hale, White, Currie and McIntosh all came from other clubs and we had the chance to look at them but again we dont value that type of player.

Hale was traded at a time when we had both Hudson and Minson on the list and didn't need another ruckman that would be surplus to requirements. He would absolutely play seniors for us atm though.

White was someone I'm sure I remember us looking at but I believe we weren't either as interested or as happy to pay for him as clubs like Collingwood were. Besides Dawes is similar (big key forward that has a go in the ruck) and we definitely had a look at him.

Currie is not any better than Campbell.

And McIntosh was an injury prone ruckman who is as bash and crash as Cordy.

[1eyedog]

I beg to differ I dont think we would be playing them.

Hale, White, Currie and McIntosh all came from other clubs and we had the chance to look at them but again we dont value that type of player.

Fair enough.
You've listed three ruckman though all with fairly narrow frames that are not ideal for the crash and bash approach you're advocating (perhaps the exception is Currie who is a mature age but is untested at AFL level).

Just for arguments sake we've picked up Roughie, Jones, Mulligan, Cordy, Wight and Williams over the years all very similar in size to the type of players you've listed above. IMHO we've given this type of player heaps of opportunities to deliver which continues to this day (Roughie, Jones, Williams and Cordy). You can only have so many 200 cm guys on the list.

[bulldogtragic]

Fair enough.
You've listed three ruckman though all with fairly narrow frames that are not ideal for the crash and bash approach you're advocating (perhaps the exception is Currie who is a mature age but is untested at AFL level).

Just for arguments sake we've picked up Roughie, Jones, Mulligan, Cordy, Wight and Williams over the years all very similar in size to the type of players you've listed above. IMHO we've given this type of player heaps of opportunities to deliver which continues to this day (Roughie, Jones, Williams and Cordy). You can only have so many 200 cm guys on the list.

Dead right on the last comment. The problem is we've been trying to get 200cm + players who are not actually ruckmen, but rather athletic KPP's, which has been as a successful venture as Fiji recruiting from the names you mention. Im happy to say unless it's a Tom Boyd type gun KPP, we should look to 200cm + players as ruckmen only.

[1eyedog]

Dead right on the last comment. The problem is we've been trying to get 200cm + players who are not actually ruckmen, but rather athletic KPP's, which has been as a successful venture as Fiji recruiting from the names you mention. Im happy to say unless it's a Tom Boyd type gun KPP, we should look to 200cm + players as ruckmen only.

I wish we had two Roughies.

[bulldogtragic]

I wish we had two Roughies.

If we finished one spot lower a decade back, we could have. Interesting to ask, if we could change the pick 3 to pick 2 that Hawks Roughie, would you trade Griff for the hawks Roughie?

[bornadog]

If we finished one spot lower a decade back, we could have. Interesting to ask, if we could change the pick 3 to pick 2 that Hawks Roughie, would you trade Griff for the hawks Roughie?

Never

[1eyedog]

If we finished one spot lower a decade back, we could have. Interesting to ask, if we could change the pick 3 to pick 2 that Hawks Roughie, would you trade Griff for the hawks Roughie?

Not a chance in hell. You?

[KT31]

If we finished one spot lower a decade back, we could have. Interesting to ask, if we could change the pick 3 to pick 2 that Hawks Roughie, would you trade Griff for the hawks Roughie?

Not a hope in Hell, but would certainly have taken Franklin over Williams.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm just doing this for conversation sake guys... Why?

[chef]

I couldn't swap Grif now after all he's done for us, but if it was this years draft and a choice between a future Grif type and a future Roughy I'd take the Roughy.

[azabob]

Not a hope in Hell, but would certainly have taken Franklin over Williams.

Ha! KT, somethings don't need to be said!!!

[KT31]

I couldn't swap Grif now after all he's done for us, but if it was this years draft and a choice between a future Grif type and a future Roughy I'd take the Roughy.

Hopefully in name and ability we already have the future Roughy.;)

[1eyedog]

Not a hope in Hell, but would certainly have taken Franklin over Williams.

:eek: you just mentioned the unmentionable i.e Williams at 6. I always console myself with the fact that Richmond took Tambling at 4.

[josie]

Hi Guys,

Bit off topic wrt match committee...

I know #6 draft spot is hard to stomach...but give Williams (another) chance!! I know he seems a bit soft since his comeback bur his been out of footy a long time - hopefully he will harden up in backline including keeping not getting knocked about so easily or perhaps become a swingman.

Personally I liked him as a forward in what little time we've actually seen him play. I have more hope in Williams as long as he is not injured again than Cordy and I'm still praying Cordy comes good too.

Back onto topic:


I really hope they keep Bontempelli in. Also hope Hunter or Dickson get's nod at expense of Stringer or Gia.

Would also love to see Tutt and Honeychurch get a go - perhaps at expense of Wallis and Jong (although I still think Jong is a rough diamond and will come good because of his work ethic just like Crossy did).

And Morris a shoe in for Talia or Williams. Would love to see Fletcher given a go but perhaps that's too many changes.

[Rocco Jones]

As much as I don't want to add to the derailing of this thread but always thought people are too harsh on pick 6 for Williams. Lids, Roughy, Griff and Buddy going before him and being stars really taints the argument. Yeah they have much better careers but they were gone come pick 6!

We need to look at the picks after him. Correct me if I am wrong but only 3 remain at their original clubs- Jordan Lewis, Nathan van Berlo and Mark Lecras. That's one pick vs a field of 80 or so. I really don't think Williams stacks up too badly and that's coming from someone who thinks he is just about cooked as an AFL player (due to injuries).

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Never

Interesting to note that both Father's of the two Rougheads played for our Reserves team with Jordan's 16 games and the Hawks Dad just one appearance before going back to farm life at Leongatha.

[boydogs]

And Morris a shoe in for Talia or Williams. Would love to see Fletcher given a go but perhaps that's too many changes.

I thought Talia was better than both Young & Williams last week

[JohnGentStand]

In : Morris, Hunter and maybe Tutt
Out : Talia, Gia and maybe Bont

[Maddog37]

I would prefer to keep the back line as settled as possible.

I am happy to make Honeychurch wait a touch longer and Tutt brings less to the table than Hunter.

So basically I want Hunter, Morris and Campbell in but have no idea who to drop.

[1eyedog]

As much as I don't want to add to the derailing of this thread but always thought people are too harsh on pick 6 for Williams. Lids, Roughy, Griff and Buddy going before him and being stars really taints the argument. Yeah they have much better careers but they were gone come pick 6!

We need to look at the picks after him. Correct me if I am wrong but only 3 remain at their original clubs- Jordan Lewis, Nathan van Berlo and Mark Lecras. That's one pick vs a field of 80 or so. I really don't think Williams stacks up too badly and that's coming from someone who thinks he is just about cooked as an AFL player (due to injuries).

The reason that Williams is still on our list is that we have had no one better to replace him since 2004 and because he looked promising at the start of his career. Injuries have robbed him of opportunity to justify his high draft position. I thought it was all over for him when he attempted that mark in Brisbane and his shoulder popped out. I thought the same again when he tried to spoil in the goal square on Sunday and he slice punched the ball straight into the hands of a waiting Carlton player in the goal square.
I don't want to hang too much shite on Williams because our backs had a horrible time of it on Sunday but his reading of the ball through the air has always been a HUGE problem.

Players still at their clubs from the 2004 draft include Lynden Dunn, Matt Rosa and James Gwilt. Quite a few have been picked up by other clubs.

Finally getting back on track I think Williams has to stay in the side until Roughie returns. The next few months will make or break him.


Interesting to note that both Father's of the two Rougheads played for our Reserves team with Jordan's 16 games and the Hawks Dad just one appearance before going back to farm life at Leongatha.

I was very surprised to hear that Jordan grew up barracking for the Bulldogs.

[bornadog]

Can't see why people are asking for Talia to be dropped. Talia is our future and needs to be in the seniors to develop.

[bornadog]

I was very surprised to hear that Jordan grew up barracking for the Bulldogs.

Whole family of Doggies supporters

[stefoid]

As much as I don't want to add to the derailing of this thread but always thought people are too harsh on pick 6 for Williams. Lids, Roughy, Griff and Buddy going before him and being stars really taints the argument. Yeah they have much better careers but they were gone come pick 6!

We need to look at the picks after him. Correct me if I am wrong but only 3 remain at their original clubs- Jordan Lewis, Nathan van Berlo and Mark Lecras. That's one pick vs a field of 80 or so. I really don't think Williams stacks up too badly and that's coming from someone who thinks he is just about cooked as an AFL player (due to injuries).

Hopefully it wasnt the cnstant injuries that just prolonged his career

[LostDoggy]

Can anyone tell me who has had a better career than Tom Williams out of all the talls we have ever picked with a 1st round draft selection......Everitt, Grant, Tim Walsh spring to mind, so relatively speaking he is being unfairly maligned and people are way harsh :eek: Thanks Scott Clayton

Williams was terrible against Carlton that missed spoil gee....I really think he needs to go if Morris is fit, if not well he probably stays

[Remi Moses]

Can't believe Daniel Currie's Beeing pumped up .
He couldn't mark a beach ball!
Injuries have hurt Williams, but he has to be more than just athletic .

[Remi Moses]

Can't see why people are asking for Talia to be dropped. Talia is our future and needs to be in the seniors to develop.

Couldn't agree more

[Remi Moses]

I would prefer to keep the back line as settled as possible.

I am happy to make Honeychurch wait a touch longer and Tutt brings less to the table than Hunter.

So basically I want Hunter, Morris and Campbell in but have no idea who to drop.
I'd bring the kid in, no matter how many we have.

[jeemak]

I think we need to understand that Williams and most of our defenders are only as good as our midfielders, who should be keeping the ball from zinging into the defensive area as quickly and easily as it did on Sunday evening.

Sure there are some technique issues Williams displayed (and will always display) on Sunday that aren't going to be rectified and will need to be hidden by playing him on the third best forward, but how many teams in the competition have defenders that can cope with playing first and second when they should be playing third and fourth?

I think Bmac's message vid this week pointed out the level of disappointment the MC had with the team performance last week. Sure players like Williams were exposed but we have only one player on our defensive team, maybe two (Morris and Murph) that are any where near faultless defensively. The rest are exposed when opposition teams are allowed to get goal side of opponents at stoppages and in general play which was the case on Sunday.

[Remi Moses]

What worried me was when Henderson turned him and snapped a goal without Beeing touched.
He's not exactly Ussain Bolt( neither player) but that just lacked intensity of any kind.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Hi Guys,

Bit off topic wrt match committee...

I know #6 draft spot is hard to stomach...but give Williams (another) chance!! I know he seems a bit soft since his comeback bur his been out of footy a long time - hopefully he will harden up in backline including keeping not getting knocked about so easily or perhaps become a swingman.

Personally I liked him as a forward in what little time we've actually seen him play. I have more hope in Williams as long as he is not injured again than Cordy and I'm still praying Cordy comes good too.

Back onto topic:


I really hope they keep Bontempelli in. Also hope Hunter or Dickson get's nod at expense of Stringer or Gia.

Would also love to see Tutt and Honeychurch get a go - perhaps at expense of Wallis and Jong (although I still think Jong is a rough diamond and will come good because of his work ethic just like Crossy did).

And Morris a shoe in for Talia or Williams. Would love to see Fletcher given a go but perhaps that's too many changes.


^^^
Like.

[LostDoggy]

I still maintain that Williams looks instantly more comfortable and confident when playing forward. I think he really gets nervous when he has to worry about where his opponent is and seems to get caught in two minds as to whether he should focus on his opponent or the ball during contests. Problem is though, when he focuses on the ball he loses his opponent too easily or is easily knocked out of position by his opponent. I think he could actually be a descent CHF in all honesty.

[1eyedog]

Can anyone tell me who has had a better career than Tom Williams out of all the talls we have ever picked with a 1st round draft selection......Everitt, Grant, Tim Walsh spring to mind, so relatively speaking he is being unfairly maligned and people are way harsh :eek: Thanks Scott Clayton

Williams was terrible against Carlton that missed spoil gee....I really think he needs to go if Morris is fit, if not well he probably stays

I think supporters now have low expectations of our KPP which is where I think the problem lies. We have had no luck with KPP outside Lake for so long that people start accepting mediocrity. But I guess 78 games in 8 years from a bloke approaching 28 is better than what we got from Walsh and Everitt.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Williams is a better forward than he is defender, but we need(ed) him to stand up with the loss of Morris and Roughead and he was poor v Carlton.

I can't see Williams being played forward so long as we have Morris/Roughy injured and a preference for Stringer (and to a lesser degree Campbell) as forwards.

[LostDoggy]

We are all being way too hard on Williams and Young to some extent, look at how much space and time Henderson and Waite had on the weekend. No one pushing back into the holes. Mark Murphy, Gibbs and Thomas had way to much time and space to kick lace out to those guys. I'd like to think that with the whole list fit you would play Roughead, Morris, Williams/Talia

[GVGjr]

Ins Fletcher Roberts, Lachie Hunter, Mitch Honeychurch, Tom Campbell and Tory Dickson
Outs Mitch Wallis and Tom Williams (Both omitted)

Dickson has been named in the starting line-up and the other 4 on an extended bench.

[Hotdog60]

B: Liam Picken, Michael Talia, Easton Wood.
HB: Shaun Higgins, Tom Young, Robert Murphy.
C: Adam Cooney, Ryan Griffen, Jack Macrae.
HF: Koby Stevens, Stewart Crameri, Tory Dickson.
F: Luke Dahlhaus, Liam Jones, Daniel Giansiracusa.
Fol: Will Minson, Matthew Boyd, Tom Liberatore.
I/C
Marcus Bontempelli, Lin Jong, Fletcher Roberts, Jake Stringer, Lachie Hunter, Mitch Honeychurch, Tom Campbell(Three to be omitted).

Wallis and Williams omitted

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Would say Roberts gets a game if Williams has been omitted and no Morris. Hope honeychurch gets a game. Rough on Tutt again

[Greystache]

If the bench ends up being Honeychurch, Roberts, Campbell, Bontempelli then I think we've got it right.

[GVGjr]

Would say Roberts gets a game if Williams has been omitted and no Morris. Hope honeychurch gets a game. Rough on Tutt again

Morris hasn't come up. You would think they need an insurance of another tall defender.

[Remi Moses]

The backline's a worry. Roberts to play?

[Remi Moses]

Lynch, Pods, and Jenkins. Thank god Walker isn't playing .

[Throughandthrough]

Lynch, Pods, and Jenkins. Thank god Walker isn't playing .

Glenelg is playing the crows reserves in the SANFL. The Crows reserves forward line is Leis Johnston, Taylor Walker and Shain McKernan. Sigh, may not be a great weekend for me.

[Remi Moses]

Mckernan's hopeless ( good at a lower level)
Johnston's a good kick, but that's it. I'm surprised they went with Mckernan and Johnston over Jenkins early.

[kruder]

If the bench ends up being Honeychurch, Roberts, Campbell, Bontempelli then I think we've got it right.

You don't think having Honey and Bonts play is a tad first year overkill considering the youth that is already in the team?

Just listening to Macca this morning I doubt he will play, Hunter for mine can go into the midfield and swap with dahl too with Dickson back in.

[F'scary]

Gia to miss the cut? (I know he is named in the starting line up but Macca could be playing mind games with his opposition number.)

[bulldogtragic]

It might just be me... But i'd rather lose with Hunter, Hrovat (etc) rather than win with Gia. Finishing with 5, 6 or 7 wins doesn't mean much to me as opposed to pumping 22 games into kids who will be trying to get this bloody elusive flag.

[always right]

Hope Honeychurch plays. Looking forward to yelling out his nickname....."Sweet Jesus"

[MrMahatma]

Hope Honeychurch plays. Looking forward to yelling out his nickname....."Sweet Jesus"

Based on Macca's presser, and the match preview on the website, I'd say that big Tom and Dickson will both play. I'd be surprised if we make more than 2 changes.

[Remi Moses]

Play the kids( hunter's still one) they won't let you down.
The church is banging the door down

[Remi Moses]

It might just be me... But i'd rather lose with Hunter, Hrovat (etc) rather than win with Gia. Finishing with 5, 6 or 7 wins doesn't mean much to me as opposed to pumping 22 games into kids who will be trying to get this bloody elusive flag.

I'm with you trag. Carlton fans are screaming " play the kids" and they bring in Mcclean!

[Dancin' Douggy]

Wow. Roughhead and Morris are out. We're screaming out for quality tall defenders and Williams gets dropped. That sounds like a career ending moment to me.

[soupman]

Just FWIW neither Stringer nor Bontempelli are named for Footscray so you would imagine they are both playing AFL.

[LostDoggy]

It might just be me... But i'd rather lose with Hunter, Hrovat (etc) rather than win with Gia. Finishing with 5, 6 or 7 wins doesn't mean much to me as opposed to pumping 22 games into kids who will be trying to get this bloody elusive flag.
With Gia in the team he is teaching on the sidelines. One replacement to play a one kid ... no I like to have a win
Winning needs to be a culture

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If the bench ends up being Honeychurch, Roberts, Campbell, Bontempelli then I think we've got it right.

I wouldn't be unhappy with that but I think Hunter will play instead of Honeychurch.

I'd be happy with that, although who plays on Dangerfield? For a side concerned with upping the defensive efforts, going into the game against a free flowing side with no taggers would be risky. I bet we play Jong.

[Eastdog]

I wouldn't be unhappy with that but I think Hunter will play instead of Honeychurch.

I'd be happy with that, although who plays on Dangerfield? For a side concerned with upping the defensive efforts, going into the game against a free flowing side with no taggers would be risky. I bet we play Jong.

Yeah if we can shut down Dangerfield then we have done very well. If he gets going then he'll really hurt us. What do you think of how we have lined up in defence? Im hoping we don't concede 7 goals in the first quarter like last week.

[The Underdog]

I wouldn't be unhappy with that but I think Hunter will play instead of Honeychurch.

I'd be happy with that, although who plays on Dangerfield? For a side concerned with upping the defensive efforts, going into the game against a free flowing side with no taggers would be risky. I bet we play Jong.

My thought is Stevens in the midfield, Wood in the forward line.
We haven't given Stevens a tagging job before but he's has the body strength to go with him. Might be worth a shot.

[1eyedog]

It might just be me... But i'd rather lose with Hunter, Hrovat (etc) rather than win with Gia. Finishing with 5, 6 or 7 wins doesn't mean much to me as opposed to pumping 22 games into kids who will be trying to get this bloody elusive flag.

We need to strike a balance so the kids aren't witnessing floggings.

[bulldogtragic]

We need to strike a balance so the kids aren't witnessing floggings.

Respectfully, does 20 minutes of Gia the difference between winning and floggings?

Or even 4 quarters, or a few weeks back 10 minutes? It's nothing really against him as I've never accepted the Gia bashing over the years, it's about where we are and where we are going to. We are going to lose more than we win this year and I don't see him winning games off his own boot enough to prohibit the 'little h brigade' (Hunter, Hrovat, Honeychurch) being played and putting their development in a sharp upwards curve.

[Scorlibo]

So Young goes to Pods, Talia to Jenkins, Wood to Lynch? Or does Roberts come in to play on Lynch?

[bornadog]

Respectfully, does 20 minutes of Gia the difference between winning and floggings?

Or even 4 quarters, or a few weeks back 10 minutes? It's nothing really against him as I've never accepted the Gia bashing over the years, it's about where we are and where we are going to. We are going to lose more than we win this year and I don't see him winning games off his own boot enough to prohibit the 'little h brigade' (Hunter, Hrovat, Honeychurch) being played and putting their development in a sharp upwards curve.

Couldn't agree more, I love Gia but it is time. I want Hrovat in there or Hunter and Honeychurch as well. We have enough guys with over 150 games in the team to give us general experience. Gia can give us valuable experience with his coaching on the bench. Doesn't need to be on the field.

[Bulldog Joe]

So Young goes to Pods, Talia to Jenkins, Wood to Lynch? Or does Roberts come in to play on Lynch?


I would send Talia to Pods and play Roberts on Jenkins and probably Young to Lynch. Think Wood needs to play on Dangerfield when he is forward.

[Bulldog Joe]

Couldn't agree more, I love Gia but it is time. I want Hrovat in there or Hunter and Honeychurch as well. We have enough guys with over 150 games in the team to give us general experience. Gia can give us valuable experience with his coaching on the bench. Doesn't need to be on the field.

Have to disagree on this. Happy for your "little H brigade" to get games and maybe rotate through, but feel they will learn and develop better with Gia playing (even as sub). Winning games will also do more for their confidence and development than losing.

Effectively you are looking at only about 5 or 6 games more on average if you leave Gia out.

[Rocco Jones]

Really not a fan of playing as many kids as possible being best for development. Just look at the Dees clearing out their senior players a few years ago.

The right senior players are great for developing young players. I think Gia is one of them.

[GVGjr]

I agree with Rocco, you need a balance. The way some people talk you would think that we don't play any younger guys.

I'm also a little perplexed with some of the commentary over selections and the questions of the development of our younger players.
For many years I have read about how being aligned to a VFL side (Werribee and Williamstown) was wrecking the development of our younger players. Now just a few weeks into a season and having our own VFL side coached by our own coaches with our own game plan apparently the younger players still can't develop properly unless they are in the senior side and that older guys need to make way. Why were we so envious of Collingwood who had their own VFL side many years earlier than us if we are now looking to bypass the development opportunities our own VFL side offers?


I would have thought for the younger guys coming in it was essential to have some seasoned guys around them. Our forward line is fairly young and while Gia won't play every game I'm sure the likes of Bonts, Honeychurch and Hrovat benefit greatly but having Gia up forward given none of them have the tank to spend a lot of time in the midfield.

I want us to win games while still providing opportunities for the younger players to come into a competitive side and develop. Bring in the guys who deserve it but lets not just give them games because there is a perception that they will develop better.

[bornadog]

Really not a fan of playing as many kids as possible being best for development. Just look at the Dees clearing out their senior players a few years ago.

The right senior players are great for developing young players. I think Gia is one of them.

No one is saying do a Melbourne. We had 6 players with over 150 games in the team last week. I think there is plenty of experience, one less will not be a large effect, especially if they sit on the bench for 3 quarters.

[The Underdog]

Really not a fan of playing as many kids as possible being best for development. Just look at the Dees clearing out their senior players a few years ago.

The right senior players are great for developing young players. I think Gia is one of them.

You're right, there has to be a mix. If young players don't have guys to lend an example and guide them, then it just ends up potentially hindering development rather than promoting it. The point of having our own VFL team was to give guys the opportunity to get game time and play in a consistent system with a consistent message no matter which level they are playing at. We need to take advantage of the process we've set up and let the guys develop the way the club feels is right. Sure we can say we don't care about winning games now for the sake of playing young guys, but it's almost panicking in the opposite direction to just throw all of the guys in there together and expect them to survive.
The club also has much better information about players physical and mental limitations from week to week than we do, so we have to trust them to a degree on selections.

[Happy Days]

So Young goes to Pods, Talia to Jenkins, Wood to Lynch? Or does Roberts come in to play on Lynch?

I agree with this. Roberts shouldn't play so these are the logical moves; I don't rate any of these guys so the defence shouldn't be too much of an issue. Young on Pods is particularly good because Pods has mainly looked awful and Young could really give us something going the other way (even through 5 goals I'm a Young mark).

We aren't going to stop Dangerfield (the god) though, so it's all moot. I've been sitting here for 5 minutes trying to think of something insightful to say on it and I just have nothing; too big for Picken, too clever for Jong/Stevens, too quick for pretty much everyone else, Boyd won't do it, so what the !*!* do we do?

[bulldogtragic]

I don't think anyone is saying that we can't develop our guys at Footscray, far from it.

I remember when I umpired in the day and when I got TAC Cup games. The speed of games went so quickly, I thought I was fit and Wiley, but I wasn't. Extrapolating that thought out, the speed between VFL and AFL must be enormous in difference. So the quicker our young uns can get used to pressure, skills under pressure and an understanding of what it takes to do it week in and out is beneficial long term. It's not club or Gia bashing, it's about a philosophy of method, not a certain player or pot at the coaches. I think the 'little h brigade' get more out of subbing or playing than Gia does for us.

[The Underdog]

I don't think anyone is saying that we can't develop our guys at Footscray, far from it.

I remember when I umpired in the day and when I got TAC Cup games. The speed of games went so quickly, I thought I was fit and Wiley, but I wasn't. Extrapolating that thought out, the speed between VFL and AFL must be enormous in difference. So the quicker our young uns can get used to pressure, skills under pressure and an understanding of what it takes to do it week in and out is beneficial long term. It's not club or Gia bashing, it's about a philosophy of method, not a certain player or pot at the coaches. I think the 'little h brigade' get more out of subbing or playing than Gia does for us.

But the thing is, they have had and will get games and opportunities. I think there is also a benefit to them learning systems and structures in a slower paced game before they are given AFL opportunities. Honeychurch is essentially 5 games into a hopefully 10 year career. If he isn't playing regular AFL football for one or two years, he may actually end up a better player because of it. Hunter and Hrovat have had opportunities and really Hrovat has been held back by injury more than anything else. Gia will miss some games during the year and personally I think he has to show that he deserves his spot over Hunter or another kid, but I think that is the case with the kids too. They have to earn their position and then play well enough to keep it.

[Eastdog]

Gee Morris would have been great down back but unfortunately his not playing.

[F'scary]

Based on Macca's presser, and the match preview on the website, I'd say that big Tom and Dickson will both play. I'd be surprised if we make more than 2 changes.


Just FWIW neither Stringer nor Bontempelli are named for Footscray so you would imagine they are both playing AFL.

Based on these useful insights, Stinger and "The Cardinal" Bontempelli stay in, Campbell and Dickson in, therefore 1 out of Jong, Hunter, Honeychurch & Roberts to round things off. I'm tipping Gia to the sub role, Honeychurch (form warrants it) to beat Jong (form isn't there at the moment) for the last spot.

So, Campbell to start in FP. Starting bench, Bontempelli, Stringer, Honeychurch, Gia (sub)

What I would like to see is: Roberts to CHB in for Gia, with Higgins moving to the bench as a midfielder, Stringer to Sub, Young to HBF or swap BP with Wood. But I don't think these are likely on top of other changes outlined above.

[GVGjr]

No one is saying do a Melbourne. We had 6 players with over 150 games in the team last week. I think there is plenty of experience, one less will not be a large effect, especially if they sit on the bench for 3 quarters.

So why is 5x150 game players a better balance than 6 and not 4? Should the number of players that have played over 150 games even be a consideration?

I get that you want to promote the younger guys to the senior side but I don't get why the form of the players isn't necessarily a strong consideration.

[bulldogtragic]

That's the beauty of freedom of thought and speech.

But for me, the argument for keeping Gia seems heavily conflicted by the decision to move Daniel Cross on. Both have been legends of our club, I think both were off field leaders of the highest order. The argument that if the kids earn it, they'll push the veteran out must cut both ways to Gia as well Cross. Cross could have been kept on the senior list very easily with Goodes left on the rookie list, especially after taking Darley and Fuller which required more aforethought than before Cross was tapped on the shoulder.

Simply put, what does Gia add to the playing side, not coaching or mentoring (as its a given how fantastically good he is), just simply on field output that requires him playing over kids that we want to be our future. Gia is a legend of our club and this is not Gia bashing, it's not a pot at the club or anyone, as we could well be talking about Cross in a parallel universe, with Gia playing at Melbourne.

Or more simply put, leaving the name Giansiracusa aside, what does a small veteran forward pocket offer on field for 10-30 minutes and the occasional full game that the 'little h brigade' can not do?

[Templeton31]

I'm really surprised by the outs this week. Was at Canberra game, which was only 2 weeks ago, and Wallis and WIlliams were two of our best. Wallis kept Ward to below 20 posies and Williams shut down GWS big guys Patton and Cameron after at half time it looked like they'd run rampant. Whats more in Maccas presser after the Canberra game he commented how game might have been a big turning point for the two Toms (Young as well) yet two weeks later Williams is dropped? I know Wallis and WIlliams got carved up last week but I would've thought one bad game should not mean dropped - especially with no Morris.

[GVGjr]

Simply put, what does Gia add to the playing side, not coaching or mentoring (as its a given how fantastically good he is), just simply on field output that requires him playing over kids that we want to be our future. Gia is a legend of our club and this is not Gia bashing, it's not a pot at the club or anyone, as we could well be talking about Cross in a parallel universe, with Gia playing at Melbourne.

Or more simply put, leaving the name Giansiracusa aside, what does a small veteran forward pocket offer on field for 10-30 minutes and the occasional full game that the 'little h brigade' can not do?

I would have thought his form last year warranted another year and now a few games into it we now seem to be saying that if he plays it's at the expense of the development of the younger players. Gia's form is pretty good, he provides leadership to a very inexperienced forward line and he sets a positive tone for the younger players to follow.
The coach was very clear that Gia would be used as a sub from time to time and even in the VFL. With that in mind rather than having a blanket decision that Gia should make way for the youngsters surely the better question is around which weeks do we give him a spell and which players comes in.

Rocco's right, Melbourne jettisoned a number of experienced players so that they could sell the members the notion that were going to fast track the development the younger guys and it actually slowed their development. They have slowed the development of a number of talented youngsters. We moved on Cross but thought the younger players needed Gia around so I think it's okay that we can use him in a variety of roles. If we need to make the hard cal on him it should be later in the year.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Happy to play Gia if he's contributing (like any other player) but aside from one game he's been largely ineffective IMO.

Tutt is the perfect sub - a player who can come on and inject pace late in a game when everybody else has tired. In most games this season, the play opens up a lot in the second half due to fatigue. I don't rate Tutt, but he's one player who can take advantage of this (as seen v GWS).

Gia moves like the queen mary and whilst his nous helps to a degree (Richmond game) I think he is (and will continue) to have a limited impact.

[bulldogtragic]

I would have thought his form last year warranted another year and now a few games into it we now seem to be saying that if he plays it's at the expense of the development of the younger players. Gia's form is pretty good, he provides leadership to a very inexperienced forward line and he sets a positive tone for the younger players to follow.
The coach was very clear that Gia would be used as a sub from time to time and even in the VFL. With that in mind rather than having a blanket decision that Gia should make way for the youngsters surely the better question is around which weeks do we give him a spell and which players comes in.

Rocco's right, Melbourne jettisoned a number of experienced players so that they could sell the members the notion that were going to fast track the development the younger guys and it actually slowed their development. They have slowed the development of a number of talented youngsters. We moved on Cross but thought the younger players needed Gia around so I think it's okay that we can use him in a variety of roles. If we need to make the hard cal on him it should be later in the year.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison to Melbourne FC to be honest, I think it's pretty harsh on us to suggest our existance at the end of last year was even close to Melbourne-esq. Unlike Melbourne, we have a decent coach, particularly to development of players (match day stuff still needs some work) and have a generally happy and motivated playing group with off-field stability.

After Bailey, Neeld killed Melbourne, slaughtered the club. He ran players out of the club, was an average match day coach, lost the players and Melbourne off the field was in free fall and Neeld sounds like a general prick. We were not and are not at that tipping point, so to suggest moving Gia into coaching one year earlier would somehow end in under, or badly developing players is not fair to our off field brigade and on field leaders. Cross was every bit a leader and I thought his form was as good as Gia, sending Cross to that mob was heart breaking stuff -a far worse outcome than moving Gia straight into coaching.

I think everyone was surprised by Gia's contract extension. Like some, the masterplan is not always exactly apparent to me, and i'm inquisitive by nature. I'm happy to go with the flow last year, but 5 games in with the results we've had I don't see what playing him now does for the long term masterplan. In a moment/s of reflection and contemplation of the season to date, and looking forward to the remainder of the season and players we need to start playing, I just don't see what it really does now. Plus finding a spot in the 22 for Hunter, Hrovat, Dickson, Honeychurch or even Capmbell or Cordy orothers, I see Gia as the most easily replaceable player to make way for new blood.

Forget why he was re-contracted or the theories behind it, it's done and it was right at the time. But.. right now 6 rounds in, the season to date, looking forward, I don't see what he offers as a player that our future this year and beyond is best with young forwards playing for Footscray. I'm interested in the future, not the past.

[GVGjr]

Forget why he was re-contracted or the theories behind it, it's done and it was right at the time. But.. right now 6 rounds in, the season to date, looking forward, I don't see what he offers as a player that our future this year and beyond is best with young forwards playing for Footscray. I'm interested in the future, not the past.

I think he is holding his spot and while we can't change the past we can learn a few things from it.
I'm a strong believer that selection in the senior side should earned not gifted. I also believe that we need a balance between having some experienced players to compliment the introduction of young players in the side.

As for the future, the whole one week at a time is what we should be focusing on. We shouldn't be over reacting or changing the course 6 weeks into a season unless there is a compelling reason why. I get that it's not Gia bashing but he hasn't really done enough wrong to lose his spot. We will give him a spell from time to time but I'd wait until much later in the season before saying it's time from him to be stood down in favour of younger players.

I find the whole "play the youngsters theme" I hear on talk back radio is more of a cop out so that some supporters can find a way to live with a loss.

We have a lot of inexperienced players in the side, they need others to support them. I also want us to put up the most competitive side we can and see how the season plays out.

[always right]

Campbell and Dickson the two ins. Surprised we are going in with only Young and Talia as key defenders. Risky.....again.

[GVGjr]

Campbell and Dickson the two ins. Surprised we are going in with only Young and Talia as key defenders. Risky.....again.


Agreed, Easton Wood has answered the challenge all season but it's going to be a challenge for him to keep getting matched up on bigger players.

[bornadog]

I think he is holding his spot and while we can't change the past we can learn a few things from it.

We haven't learned much from the past. Aker went one year too long as did Eagleton. Perhaps Gia is too.


I'm a strong believer that selection in the senior side should earned not gifted. .

Yes agree. Honeychurch has been BOG the last two weeks and misses out again this week. I don't get that one.


I also believe that we need a balance between having some experienced players to compliment the introduction of young players in the side.

That is why I pointed out that we have 6 players with more than 150 games playing every week, that to me is plenty. We are still not balanced in the 100 to 150 games, with only 2 playing in that bracket last week.

[bulldogtragic]

I think he is holding his spot and while we can't change the past we can learn a few things from it.
I'm a strong believer that selection in the senior side should earned not gifted. I also believe that we need a balance between having some experienced players to compliment the introduction of young players in the side.

As for the future, the whole one week at a time is what we should be focusing on. We shouldn't be over reacting or changing the course 6 weeks into a season unless there is a compelling reason why. I get that it's not Gia bashing but he hasn't really done enough wrong to lose his spot. We will give him a spell from time to time but I'd wait until much later in the season before saying it's time from him to be stood down in favour of younger players.

I find the whole "play the youngsters theme" I hear on talk back radio is more of a cop out so that some supporters can find a way to live with a loss.

We have a lot of inexperienced players in the side, they need others to support them. I also want us to put up the most competitive side we can and see how the season plays out.

Did you just compare me to a talk back radio caller, I really, really hope not! :)

Gia makes our subbing entirely predictable, and thus easily coachable as per being North, when for some reason known to Macca he gave him about 10 minutes. Last week he seemed little rusty and dropped a handball receive in the goal square that would have got us back to about 2 goals down. In games like WCE, his presence was at best neutral in terms of our output.

If this continues to the end of the season I'm not sure we are going to reflect on playing Gia as being a significant positive move for the club. It's not about placating losing, or talk back ranters, its about looking at the plan neaarly 1/3 in and assessing things with fresh thinking with regard to the immediate past and the immediate and longer term plan. I've been drilled with many things (Westdog, 'safety first') the other is constantly reassess plans. I'm looking at the plan and not seeing it working to a degree that it should. The plan needs to be Gia offering sufficient enough above what the Hunter/Hrovat/Honeychurchs can offer as to keep them in a lower league. So to this end it's entirely subjective and opinion.

As for our predictability with the sub and still not using it right, i'm sure I've mentioned it enough to not go over it again.

[bornadog]

Campbell and Dickson the two ins. Surprised we are going in with only Young and Talia as key defenders. Risky.....again.

Our only player in the backline who is over 192cm is Talia who has played 14 games.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I don't think Roberts is ready, Wood will probably do just as good a job if not better. Although it would have been nice to see Roberts tested all the same.

Glad to see Campbell into the lineup, makes us look so much better structurally. Helps out Minson (who needs it) and means we don't sacrifice Jones (and our forward options) as a ruck.

I'm amazed Jong and Stringer are both playing, particularly the former. I like his attitude, but he shouldn't be anywhere near our best 22 on a regular basis if we're being honest. At least with Stringer you can argue he's a supremely talented kid who we're pumping games into, even if he's out of form. Perhaps he'll be used down back given Dickson's inclusion?

I hope Bonti is not the sub.

[bornadog]

I don't think Roberts is ready, Wood will probably do just as good a job if not better. Although it would have been nice to see Roberts tested all the same.

Glad to see Campbell into the lineup, makes us look so much better structurally. Helps out Minson (who needs it) and means we don't sacrifice Jones (and our forward options) as a ruck.

I'm amazed Jong and Stringer are both playing, particularly the former. I like his attitude, but he shouldn't be anywhere near our best 22 on a regular basis if we're being honest. At least with Stringer you can argue he's a supremely talented kid who we're pumping games into, even if he's out of form. Perhaps he'll be used down back given Dickson's inclusion?

Yes we know you don't rate Jong. Give the kid a break, he is 20 years old and has played 8 games. Its obvious the coach has set him a task and he seems to be sticking to it.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Yes we know you don't rate Jong. Give the kid a break, he is 20 years old and has played 8 games. Its obvious the coach has set him a task and he seems to be sticking to it.

So you think he's deserving of a spot in our 22 after several sub 12 possession or so games? What task is that - he went to Gibbs at times and Simpson at times last week, got slaughtered.

Not sure what his age and experience have to do with my argument. You've been banging on about dropping Gia and playing a side of U19 year olds, I could turn around and say "give him a break he's played 250 games".

[bornadog]

So you think he's deserving of a spot in our 22 after several sub 12 possession or so games? What task is that - he went to Gibbs at times and Simpson at times last week, got slaughtered.

Not sure what his age and experience have to do with my argument. You've been banging on about dropping Gia and playing a side of U19 year olds, I could turn around and say "give him a break he's played 250 games".



2014 Statistical Rankings



http://www.footywire.com/afl/img/dot.gif Ranked 5th among rising stars in Total Goal Assists (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2014&rt=RT&st=GA)
http://www.footywire.com/afl/img/dot.gif Ranked 9th among rising stars in Total Goals (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2014&rt=RT&st=GO)



http://www.footywire.com/afl/img/dot.gif Ranked 5th among rising stars in Total Tackles (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2014&rt=RT&st=TA)
http://www.footywire.com/afl/img/dot.gif Ranked 6th among rising stars in Total Clearances (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2014&rt=RT&st=CL)


http://www.footywire.com/afl/img/dot.gif Ranked 6th among rising stars in Total Rebound 50s (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2014&rt=RT&st=R5)
http://www.footywire.com/afl/img/dot.gif Ranked 10th among rising stars in Total Bounces (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2014&rt=RT&st=BO)


http://www.footywire.com/afl/img/dot.gif Ranked 6th among rising stars in Goal Assists Per Game (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2014&rt=RA&st=GA)
http://www.footywire.com/afl/img/dot.gif Ranked 6th among rising stars in Tackles Per Game (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2014&rt=RA&st=TA)


http://www.footywire.com/afl/img/dot.gif Ranked 7th among rising stars in Clearances Per Game (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2014&rt=RA&st=CL)
http://www.footywire.com/afl/img/dot.gif Ranked 8th among rising stars in Rebound 50s Per Game (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2014&rt=RA&st=R5)



How many eligible for rising star nominations do you think there are in the AFL? At least 40 plus.

I think he is holding his own with some important stats.

The young are the future, Gia (who I love), is not the future. Different if we were challenging for finals.

[GVGjr]

We haven't learned much from the past. Aker went one year too long as did Eagleton. Perhaps Gia is too.


Huge difference with Akermanis /Eagleton when compared to Gia. With Aker and Eagleton we had no real plan on how we would use them effectively at the club (and didn't it show) whereas Gia was pegged as being used in a variety roles including some games at Footscray and embraced those conditions. I don't see why after just 6 games and decent form you want to move him aside for others?



Yes agree. Honeychurch has been BOG the last two weeks and misses out again this week. I don't get that one.


He was certainly in the mix, maybe someone else should have made way for him. Personally I think Hunter would have been the better inclusion this week.




That is why I pointed out that we have 6 players with more than 150 games playing every week, that to me is plenty. We are still not balanced in the 100 to 150 games, with only 2 playing in that bracket last week.

If the games played model should be a strong consideration with selections do Morris and Murphy need to be worried by round 8 or 9?

Lets pick our best team while still providing opportunities for youngsters. It shouldn't mean that we have to drop guys who are in good form just because of their age and the number of games they have played.

[bornadog]

If the games played model should be a strong consideration with selections do Morris and Murphy need to be worried by round 8 or 9?

Big difference with Morris and Murphy, they play almost 100% of the game. I was all for Gia being sub, but you can't do it every week. Let him play the whole game then. I have already stated preseason, Gia should have retired at the end of last year.

[GVGjr]

Did you just compare me to a talk back radio caller, I really, really hope not! :)



Certainly not ;) and apologies if it reads that way, I'm challenging the notion that after 6 games there seems to be a focus on changing the direction on team selections in favour of youth. Maybe much later in the season it should be a consideration but picking our best side should be what we expect from the match committee.



Gia makes our subbing entirely predictable, and thus easily coachable as per being North, when for some reason known to Macca he gave him about 10 minutes. Last week he seemed little rusty and dropped a handball receive in the goal square that would have got us back to about 2 goals down. In games like WCE, his presence was at best neutral in terms of our output.



Agreed, that's why he shouldn't be the sub every week, start him for a couple of games, give him a go as the sub and even give him a game or two at Footscray. What we shouldn't do is just say that he needs to make room for others.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

How many eligible for rising star nominations do you think there are in the AFL? At least 40 plus.

I think he is holding his own with some important stats.

The young are the future, Gia (who I love), is not the future. Different if we were challenging for finals.

You are always so quick to use stats to your advantage. Most of them count for very little. The fact is Jong is neither stopping his opponents nor winning much of the ball. What is he actually bringing to the side? His tackling and attitude are of a high standard but he should be learning the game at the level below.

Gia shouldn't be dropped just because we aren't challenging for finals. If that was the case, Morris and Boyd are in the same boat. Gia should be judged on form and team balance. Against Adelaide, I wouldn't play him, given they have pace and are a free wheeling side. Hunter would be my preferred selection. A forward balance of Campbell, Stringer, Dickson and Gia doesn't excite me given none are particularly quick/defensively minded (I suspect Stringer will play back though).

[bornadog]

Agreed, that's why he shouldn't be the sub every week, start him for a couple of games, give him a go as the sub and even give him a game or two at Footscray. What we shouldn't do is just say that he needs to make room for others.

Macca already said the agreement with Gia is he won't be playing every week. He will most likely play about 15/16 games.

[bornadog]

You are always so quick to use stats to your advantage. Most of them count for very little. The fact is Jong is neither stopping his opponents nor winning much of the ball. What is he actually bringing to the side? His tackling and attitude are of a high standard but he should be learning the game at the level below.

Fine that is your opinion. Seems the coach thinks differently than all of us.

[GVGjr]

Gia shouldn't be dropped just because we aren't challenging for finals. If that was the case, Morris and Boyd are in the same boat. Gia should be judged on form and team balance. Against Adelaide, I wouldn't play him, given they have pace and are a free wheeling side. Hunter would be my preferred selection. A forward balance of Campbell, Stringer, Dickson and Gia doesn't excite me given none are particularly quick/defensively minded (I suspect Stringer will play back though).

This is the type of logic I think has a lot of merit. You want Hunter in for Gia because he will provide more run and it's not about the development Hunter as a player it's more about picking the right side to play against the Crows.

Stringer to the back half will be an interesting experiment.

[GVGjr]

How many eligible for rising star nominations do you think there are in the AFL? At least 40 plus.

I think he is holding his own with some important stats.

The young are the future, Gia (who I love), is not the future. Different if we were challenging for finals.

So why not apply it across the board last year and we could have moved others as well?
I don't question your love of Gia but after just 6 games into a season and knowing that Macca had a plan for him before he recommitted to playing on this year you seem to want to go against that and the best arguments you have advised is youth and that we aren't necessarily playing finals.

[bornadog]

So why not apply it across the board last year and we could have moved others as well?
I don't question your love of Gia but after just 6 games into a season and knowing that Macca had a plan for him before he recommitted to playing on this year you seem to want to go against that and the best arguments you have advised is youth and that we aren't necessarily playing finals.

You know that is not possible or we will have a demons type of situation. We have to filter players out slowly at the over 30 year old mark. Lake was first, then Cross and now Macca decided Gia will be eased into coaching and has chosen this path. Who knows what happens next year.

Yes, my best argument is I would rather see Hunter, or Hrovat get to 50 games a lot quicker as I know they have the raw talent.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Stringer to the back half will be an interesting experiment.

I think it's a worthwhile experiment for both the side (given injuries) and Stringer (get him involved/reading the play). Are you happy with it GVG, or would you prefer he excel at his position (forward) at VFL?

[GVGjr]

I think it's a worthwhile experiment for both the side (given injuries) and Stringer (get him involved/reading the play). Are you happy with it GVG, or would you prefer he excel at his position (forward) at VFL?

I'm not sure what to do with him but given our selections it's a real possibility that he could spend some time in the back half

[boydogs]

I'm not sure what to do with him but given our selections it's a real possibility that he could spend some time in the back half

My money is on Stringer as sub

[MrMahatma]

Diff between Gia and other oldies is Gia has true competition for his spot. He's now playing at the expense of Hunter. No one on our list can get close to replacing Morris or Murph. Boyd? Well, I think this should be his last season, but while we have a lot of his "type" on the list, we don't have so many that are better than/close to as good as him.

[jeemak]

Diff between Gia and other oldies is Gia has true competition for his spot. He's now playing at the expense of Hunter. No one on our list can get close to replacing Morris or Murph. Boyd? Well, I think this should be his last season, but while we have a lot of his "type" on the list, we don't have so many that are better than/close to as good as him.

Which makes it seem obvious why we'd use Gia like we have whilst in the meantime letting Cross go. Last year Gia proved himself capable of being an impact player up forward through scoring multiple goals in a short period of time on ground. Couple that with his revised role in 2014 which incorporates coaching then it's clear a strategy has been formed and is likely to be played out.

If Gia's form goes downhill over the next few weeks I don't think there'll be any issues with the coaching staff sending him back to the VFL. They've already said prior to the season commencing that was going to happen at some stage anyway.

[Ozza]

Is a young player gaining more development from a full game in the VFL for Footscray, or by being on for 30-40 mins at AFL level?

[jeemak]

Is a young player gaining more development from a full game in the VFL for Footscray, or by being on for 30-40 mins at AFL level?

Depends on the player I suppose. I'm not going to pretend I know enough about our younger players week to week to know who falls into each category.

[Sedat]

You are always so quick to use stats to your advantage. Most of them count for very little. The fact is Jong is neither stopping his opponents nor winning much of the ball. What is he actually bringing to the side? His tackling and attitude are of a high standard but he should be learning the game at the level below.
I think his pace off the mark is something we are obviously in short supply of and has been beneficial on occasions in our team this season. He is still very much a work in progress but I have liked the upward curve in most areas of his game this season.

[Scorlibo]

Is a young player gaining more development from a full game in the VFL for Footscray, or by being on for 30-40 mins at AFL level?

That's an intelligent question in the context of the debate. I see Gia's boundary coaching as a big plus, and he is experienced enough that the limited game time doesn't detract from his output week to week (and if it does, it's simply a case of match fitness). I really don't like the idea of young players learning to play AFL via the substitute vest.

Gia acts as the sacrificial lamb by playing the sub's role, not by being dropped for younger players. Let those younger players develop complete games at Footscray. Now that we have our own VFL side, it becomes easier for players to work on the specifics of their game that will assist them in an AFL career.

[wimberga]

That's an intelligent question in the context of the debate. I see Gia's boundary coaching as a big plus, and he is experienced enough that the limited game time doesn't detract from his output week to week (and if it does, it's simply a case of match fitness). I really don't like the idea of young players learning to play AFL via the substitute vest.

Gia acts as the sacrificial lamb by playing the sub's role, not by being dropped for younger players. Let those younger players develop complete games at Footscray. Now that we have our own VFL side, it becomes easier for players to work on the specifics of their game that will assist them in an AFL career.

Well said Scorlibo.

Agree with all of the above and definitely don't like the idea of new players playing via the subs vest. The only thing which I think we don't want to see (which I am sure we wont) is the MC blindly picking Gia for the sub role without consideration for our opponent, tactics, requirements etc for the game that coming week.

[bulldogtragic]

If you watched the VFL game last night, and the Richmond game earlier this year, you wouldn't suggest playing a VFL game was better than a quarter of AFL.

Seeing Tutty, Hrovat, JJ and Clay last night (Grant coming back too), As bad as the opponent was, I'd select them all before Gia. It's not personal to him, but all those guys need to be consistent AFL contributors now and for a decade. I don't see what Gia's output has been to keep any of these guys out, he seems the obvious choice to make way.

If he is so good as a leader and coach (which he clearly is), couldn't he use those traits in the VFL as well, and sit on the bench in the AFL. I'm sure Honeychurch, Hrovat and maybe even Ayce would develop quicker with Gia running the forward line, it's not inconceivable that Gia could plays bursts on the ball and help our mids develop.

[F'scary]

Diff between Gia and other oldies is Gia has true competition for his spot. He's now playing at the expense of Hunter. No one on our list can get close to replacing Morris or Murph. Boyd? Well, I think this should be his last season, but while we have a lot of his "type" on the list, we don't have so many that are better than/close to as good as him.

Clay Smith could be the one to take Boyd's spot. But the way Boyd is playing, he is a certainty to line up next season as well.

[LostDoggy]

Suspect the coach still sees Gia as a potential late game changer. We are very quick to forget Q4 v Richmond in the context of a fairly even spread of horrible footy across our entire team v Carlton. I'd like to go to the footy and see wins. Gia's experience and class sealed one of only 2 wins this year - when the wind was blowing full against us v Richmond. He still has a place as a sub in most teams I'd pick ATM. We can still rotate the young guns based on form. Most of the 2nd years will still need a spell based on fitness and form so plenty of spots that the young guns will get a chance to grab each week.

[jeemak]

Clay Smith could be the one to take Boyd's spot. But the way Boyd is playing, he is a certainty to line up next season as well.

I see Wallis as the replacement for Boyd once he gets his strength and fitness up. Clay on the other hand is going to be a different cat all together IMO. He's an absolute beast, with an offensive mindset.

To elaborate on that, I've never thought Boyd who is strong enough in the contest to win his own ball and stop his opponent (when his mind is on it) was particularly offensive or defensive. He's pretty much neutral if not given a specific defensive task. Clay on the other hand is offensively minded first and foremost, and will knock down walls to get it forward at any cost.

I think there's a spot for each of Wallis, Smith and Stevens in our midfield as Boyd and Cooney pass on the baton.

[Remi Moses]

Suspect the coach still sees Gia as a potential late game changer. We are very quick to forget Q4 v Richmond in the context of a fairly even spread of horrible footy across our entire team v Carlton. I'd like to go to the footy and see wins. Gia's experience and class sealed one of only 2 wins this year - when the wind was blowing full against us v Richmond. He still has a place as a sub in most teams I'd pick ATM. We can still rotate the young guns based on form. Most of the 2nd years will still need a spell based on fitness and form so plenty of spots that the young guns will get a chance to grab each week.
Agree with this. We have such a disparity on our list ( although it's getting better) of senior players and inexperienced players.
You get such inconsistency due to inexperience and physical capabilities, and how often do young players miss Beeing rested?
I don't think Gia will play every game ( even as a sub)The good think about the result ( even though the opposition was woeful)
Competition for sports is high

[bulldogtragic]

Gia wasn't bad today, but he didn't win it either. If the argument goes that Gia was a better prospect on field than Bontempelli or Honeychurch who can rotate through the middle in bursts too, we can just agree to disagree. Except on the fact we don't seem to understand how best to work the sub.

[Scorlibo]

Gia wasn't bad today, but he didn't win it either. If the argument goes that Gia was a better prospect on field than Bontempelli or Honeychurch who can rotate through the middle in bursts too, we can just agree to disagree. Except on the fact we don't seem to understand how best to work the sub.

Gia didn't do much, but is a proven performer as sub. Hunter had no impact.

[azabob]

Gia wasn't bad today, but he didn't win it either. If the argument goes that Gia was a better prospect on field than Bontempelli or Honeychurch who can rotate through the middle in bursts too, we can just agree to disagree. Except on the fact we don't seem to understand how best to work the sub.

BT, what would have you done today with the sub?

[bulldogtragic]

BT, what would have you done today with the sub?

Match Day: Sent Jones to have an early shower. Campbell offered far more across the game than Jones, and it wasn't a lot, but Jones was terribly putrid today

Match Committee: I would prefer to see a midfielder selected. I'm not sure why we seem to think the sub should be a forward pocket.

[Scorlibo]

Match Day: Sent Jones to have an early shower. Campbell offered far more across the game than Jones, and it wasn't a lot, but Jones was terribly putrid today

Match Committee: I would prefer to see a midfielder selected. I'm not sure why we seem to think the sub should be a forward pocket.

You'd be hard pressed to find a player for any team who has been as consistently good in the sub role as Gia has been for us.

Gia has one of the best tanks at the club!

[bornadog]

Match Day: Sent Jones to have an early shower. Campbell offered far more across the game than Jones, and it wasn't a lot, but Jones was terribly putrid today .

The reason Jones wasn't subbed was we swapped him with Stringer who was getting beaten. Jones went to Pods, Tom Young isn't a KPP and I don't know where Talia was playing in the last??? I didn't see hoim on the ground at all.

People are harsh on Jones because he just isn't a backman. He didn't have a great day earlier but lets face it the ball delivery into the forward line in the 2nd and 3rd quarter as woeful.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

As I said earlier, Gia shouldn't have played today. Far too slow against a side who moves the ball quickly, particularly from half back. There is merit in Gia playing games, but they have to be strategically based decisions and once again the MC has failed in this regard.

[Greystache]

People are harsh on Jones because he just isn't a backman. He didn't have a great day earlier but lets face it the ball delivery into the forward line in the 2nd and 3rd quarter as woeful.

The delivery was poor into the forward line because we had no one presenting for us to kick to. Jones absolutely refused to make any effort at all. Crameri was also poor, there was nothing for the players up the ground to do but bomb it long.

Some half decent effort from a lead up forward and w
our entries would have looked much better.

[bornadog]

The delivery was poor into the forward line because we had no one presenting for us to kick to. Jones absolutely refused to make any effort at all. Crameri was also poor, there was nothing for the players up the ground to do but bomb it long.

Some half decent effort from a lead up forward and w
our entries would have looked much better.

Have a look at the forward line in the 2nd and 3rd quarters and you will find that Crameri, Jones, Gia, Dickson, Campbell, hardly touched the ball. Dahl had 4 disposals to half time and then got plenty in the 3rd, but no effect at all.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The delivery was poor into the forward line because we had no one presenting for us to kick to. Jones absolutely refused to make any effort at all. Crameri was also poor, there was nothing for the players up the ground to do but bomb it long.

Some half decent effort from a lead up forward and w
our entries would have looked much better.

Yep.

At least Campbell did present (at times), but was always out-numbered. Why we let Adelaide have their loose man for the second and third quarters I'll never know. Killed us. I thought subbing Campbell was a very stupid decision.

[bornadog]

Yep.

I thought subbing Campbell was a very stupid decision.

I think the MC thought they had no choice but to put Jones in the backline and not Campbell. I still maintain we went into the game with one tall less than we should have in the backline. Talia isnot listed as injured, but I didn't see him on the ground midway through the 3rd quarter, so Jones went back on to Pods, where Stringer was trying but being monstored by a taller and heavier opponent.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think the MC thought they had no choice but to put Jones in the backline and not Campbell. I still maintain we went into the game with one tall less than we should have in the backline. Talia isnot listed as injured, but I didn't see him on the ground midway through the 3rd quarter, so Jones went back on to Pods, where Stringer was trying but being monstored by a taller and heavier opponent.

I was OK with Jones going back - he was nothing short of woeful up forward. Ended up being even worse down back, but it was worth a try.

Gia should have been subbed, not Campbell.

[bornadog]

Gia should have been subbed, not Campbell.

Yes agree with that as it left the forward line with no talls at all.

[Greystache]

I was OK with Jones going back - he was nothing short of woeful up forward. Ended up being even worse down back, but it was worth a try.

Gia should have been subbed, not Campbell.

I saw him with ice on his thigh late, he might have got a Cork. It's the only explanation for him being subbed because Jones was pathetic, Minson was giving us nothing, and Gia can't play more than a quarter.

[Ozza]

Yes agree with that as it left the forward line with no talls at all.

We had to sub a tall. We were far too slow up forward, yes too short down back- but Campbell couldn't play there so it's an easy call by then.

A shame that Lachie Hunter was so poor once he came on- never looked like getting dangerous.

[Mantis]

Yes agree with that as it left the forward line with no talls at all.

But, it forced us to lower our eyes and hit up leading targets which worked well... The fact that Campbell was standing in the square like a big log and only creating a contest when the ball was directly on top of his head is getting missed here.

[Ozza]

But, it forced us to lower our eyes and hit up leading targets which worked well... The fact that Campbell was standing in the square like a big log and only creating a contest when the ball was directly on top of his head is getting missed here.

I'm glad someone brought it up! The addition of Campbell really butchered our forward structure. We either had him planted in the goal square, or Minson - and both we pretty hopeless. Leaving Jones out on a half forward flank - where he had no idea what to do with himself.

We actually looked our best once Stringer and Crameri were deep late in the game.

And we certainly can't have Gia and Dickson (and Stevens and Hunter) all in the same forward line.

[bulldogtragic]

Can we come back to the Gia thing, hyperbole aside, last week there's a strong defence and those questioning seemed a little on the outer. After last weekend, I think the chorus will come, and I'd prefer the debate before that. There's a strong view we need some experience out there, there's a view that person ought not specifically be Gia. It's an interesting discussion leaving the hyperbole aside.

[azabob]

Can we come back to the Gia thing, .

Post three of this thread I said Gia should be omitted from the side. I didn't see anything on Sunday to change my mind. His fitness and mind are still willing and still able to compete at AFL level, however I am afraid his leg speed isn't up to AFL level.

Players will continue to run off him, teams will play through his opponent which then puts further pressure on other players to defensively pick up the slack.

My view is we we have enough on-field experience - Murphy, Boyd, Higgins, Griffen, Cooney, Minson, Picken and Morris. To a lesser degree Crameri, Liberatore, Roughead to help the other half of the team through the match and ensure the right message is being given.

Is their scope within the rules to have Gia as a match day runner? Or as someone suggested in another post as a bench coach?

[bulldogtragic]

Post three of this thread I said Gia should be omitted from the side. I didn't see anything on Sunday to change my mind. His fitness and mind are still willing and still able to compete at AFL level, however I am afraid his leg speed isn't up to AFL level.

Players will continue to run off him, teams will play through his opponent which then puts further pressure on other players to defensively pick up the slack.

My view is we we have enough on-field experience - Murphy, Boyd, Higgins, Griffen, Cooney, Minson, Picken and Morris. To a lesser degree Crameri, Liberatore, Roughead to help the other half of the team through the match and ensure the right message is being given.

Is their scope within the rules to have Gia as a match day runner? Or as someone suggested in another post as a bench coach?

Really valid points Aza, I hadn't considered the running off him angle. First thoughts are this is a valid concern. I think that's a concern if he plays the whole game, flip side, Gia as the sub is so predictable to coach against whoever thinks this is worth going to the well needs some quiet contemplation time to reassess.

As to match day runner, probably not this year. But... If he did a long term injury maybe he can sit on the rear of the bench though. In that scenario we get to upgrade Austin and god willing any tall defender gets into last week's team.

[jazzadogs]

As to match day runner, probably not this year. But... If he did a long term injury maybe he can sit on the rear of the bench though. In that scenario we get to upgrade Austin and god willing any tall defender gets into last week's team.

When GWS had Luke Power, Cornes, Brogan etc., they were allowed to list Power (and maybe the others) as a member of their coaching panel when he wasn't playing, meaning he could sit on the bench and go out to the quarter time huddles. Would be worth looking into for Gia IMO...effectively doing the same role he's doing now without the quarter of game time added on.

[jeemak]

It's easy to get stuck into Gia after this week. After all, we delivered the ball slowly like shit for two quarters of the game and allowed Adelaide's defenders an easy run out of defence time and again during that time.

I'm going to go out on a limb right now and suggest (without access to testing data) that Gia isn't much slower than he was last year or the year before, if he's slower at all.

I'm going to go one step further and suggest what he dished up on the weekend was pretty much the same as what he's dished up for the vast majority of his career. He had a bad game, but contributed in a small way on an off day. If you want to get caught up in that and think that it had a bearing on the result then good luck to you.

We talk about Campbell and our other forwards not working hard enough to present or our midfielders not moving the ball quickly enough as if they're two different things. They're not. Conversely, defenders don't all of a sudden drop the towel making midfielders look lazy or vice versa.

If any one of our lines doesn't perform well it makes the others terrible. We were decimated between the 50's for a large portion of the game on Sunday and not all of that was due to the players playing within that area of the ground. Our defenders were exposed during that same time and funnily enough, it wasn't all their fault.

We're not good enough to be competitive if all of our lines aren't working hard. Plain and simple, we had too many examples of slack forward and defensive play across the ground for two quarters of the game and it killed us.

[Ozza]

I don't necessarily think that Gia's game has deteriorated from where he was at last year. Nor do I think his form has been 'off' - particularly considering he is more often than not, the sub.

Having said that - with Dickson returning strongly to the team, and Stevens spending more time forward (and as a lead/mark type of target) my argument would be that Gia is the one to go out of the side due predominantly to structure. Secondary to that, is that in a choice between any of Dickson, Hunter and the likes of Tutt, Honeychurch and Hrovat (if fit) - then I'm more inclined to play a combination of these guys.

I also think having Campbell, Stringer, Crameri and Jones in the side put pressure on Gia's position in terms of our forward defensive pressure.

[SlimPickens]

I also think having Campbell, Stringer, Crameri and Jones in the side put pressure on Gia's position in terms of our forward defensive pressure.

Agree with this, we need all our forwards providing that defensive pressure. Thought it was very good in the first and last quarters on Sunday but severely lacking in the middle qtrs. Its always been an aspect in Gia's game that he has struggled with although he has improved particularly late last year or coming on fresh as the sub in parts this years. I just hate watching players run away from him. I don't want to pigeon hole Gia, but to me he is a sub/subbed out or doesn't play at all.

[Mantis]

Agree with this, we need all our forwards providing that defensive pressure. Thought it was very good in the first and last quarters on Sunday but severely lacking in the middle qtrs. Its always been an aspect in Gia's game that he has struggled with although he has improved particularly late last year or coming on fresh as the sub in parts this years. I just hate watching players run away from him. I don't want to pigeon hole Gia, but to me he is a sub/subbed out or doesn't play at all.

He isn't the only one that has players run away from him... On a whole we are a pretty slow side, well at least the teams put out in recent weeks are.

[Maddog37]

Gia plays as a small forward and a small forward needs speed to defend.

[Bulldog Joe]

The knocks on Gia from the game are largely unjustified.

I know we had issues from the game, where are forwards did not present or weren't even present in the forward line when we went to go forward.

There was one incident I clearly remember in the game (unaware if it showed on the tv coverage), where Gia got into space around the 50 metre line with NO-ONE from Adelaide within about 30 metres and we had possession inside the centre square. This was in the third quarter, when we just didn't get near a goal.

The player with the ball just needed to run and put it in Gia's vicinity and a goal was there for the taking.

Instead we stopped and waited and passed it around before turning it over.