Time to Give Will some help in the Ruck

[bornadog]

Following on from NBP's post in another thread.


The game was probably lost in the first quarter when Warnock had 11 hitouts to Will's nil. We are the only club in the AFL that persists with one ruckman. Geelong in fact play three as does Hawthorn if you count Roughead. Surely that says something is wrong.

Why do we persist with playing less ruckman than the successful clubs, surely we need to help Will, he can't be in AA form for every game, and when he struggles, we don't have an option.

What do we do and what are the options?

* Campbell

* Cordy

* or do we try Williams (as has been tried in the past)

[lemmon]

I agree, would be bringing in Campbell. I think we have forgotten how promising he looked towards the end of last year and can do the job up forward while giving Minson a decent chop out.

If an opposition player through the midfield or up forward gets on top we have the option of changing up his match-up, makes sense to me that we give ourselves the same option in the ruck.

[bornadog]

I agree, would be bringing in Campbell. I think we have forgotten how promising he looked towards the end of last year and can do the job up forward while giving Minson a decent chop out.

If an opposition player through the midfield or up forward gets on top we have the option of changing up his match-up, makes sense to me that we give ourselves the same option in the ruck.

I think if we bring Campbell in, he needs to play more in the ruck than 10 to 15% of the time or he won't learn ruck work stuck at FF.

[LostDoggy]

Any reason we can't play Tom say 50% ruck for first 3 qtrs and injuries permitting sub him around 3qtr time, bring on some run (Gia lol) and let Will bring it home?

[Go_Dogs]

I agree, we need to bring in one of Campbell or Cordy to give Will a chop out.

Campbell was integral to our improved performance at the back end of 2013 and whilst he is still a developing player, it's going to be better for his development playing at senior level. The flow on will be allowing Cordy a greater amount of time rucking at VFL level too, which will hopefully help with his development.

[DragzLS1]

I vote cambell. Straightens us up and could shoulder atleast 30% of the ruck work. That gives Minno 60-70% ruck work instead of 90% he does now. Do it!

[DragzLS1]

I would also like to remind everyone that we not only won a few games purely because Minson ruck soo well with Libba roving, but also kept us in a lot of games that would have otherwise been a blow out. We need to get the most put of him not the longest out of him

[bulldogtragic]

Should have picked up someone up in the drafts. Seems a glaring oversight, and if Will gets injured were up the creek.

[lemmon]

Should have picked up someone up in the drafts. Seems a glaring oversight, and if Will gets injured were up the creek.

Mature age or an under 18? I guess it depends as to whether the match committee don't believe the role itself is viable or they don't believe Campbell/Cordy are up to playing it at the moment.

[bulldogtragic]

Mature age or an under 18? I guess it depends as to whether the match committee don't believe the role itself is viable or they don't believe Campbell/Cordy are up to playing it at the moment.

You could make an argument either way, on whether we even rookied a kid or mature age. But the powers thought that we couldn't let Greenwood or Redpath go.

Ayce has done nothing to indicate a high level of rucking competence in the VFL, which just leaves Campbell who we'd love to be a big forward. It seems fairly light on IMO.

Great question about the MC. I'm hoping our first position is not put Will in for 97% of the games.

[GVGjr]

Should have picked up someone up in the drafts. Seems a glaring oversight, and if Will gets injured were up the creek.

Whilst I tend to agree I don't think we wanted to take one just for the sake of it. We should have a developing ruckman on our rookie list each year but I don't think we wanted to change our rookies this year given the introduction of a VFL side.

We need a forward that can move into the ruck from time to time. Finding a decent one might be a difficult one though.

[bulldogtragic]

Whilst I tend to agree I don't think we wanted to take one just for the sake of it. We should have a developing ruckman on our rookie list each year but I don't think we wanted to change our rookies this year given the introduction of a VFL side.

We need a forward that can move into the ruck from time to time. Finding a decent one might be a difficult one though.

The only way to get a decent one means recruiting one in the first place, there's a few good rucks getting around that were lowish or even rookie picks. I'm not trying to pot anyone, but keeping Greenwood and/or Redpath isn't looking like a brilliant list management decision at the moment. As always I'm happy to say it if I'm wrong, but I've always thought we were a few light on last year in turning things over which then in turn means we couldnt recruit more broadly.

[bornadog]

The only way to get a decent one means recruiting one in the first place, there's a few good rucks getting around that were lowish or even rookie picks. I'm not trying to pot anyone, but keeping Greenwood and/or Redpath isn't looking like a brilliant list management decision at the moment. As always I'm happy to say it if I'm wrong, but I've always thought we were a few light on last year in turning things over which then in turn means we couldnt recruit more broadly.

Hamish McIntosh or Ben Mcevoy were available.

[GVGjr]

The only way to get a decent one means recruiting one in the first place, there's a few good rucks getting around that were lowish or even rookie picks. I'm not trying to pot anyone, but keeping Greenwood and/or Redpath isn't looking like a brilliant list management decision at the moment. As always I'm happy to say it if I'm wrong, but I've always thought we were a few light on last year in turning things over which then in turn means we couldnt recruit more broadly.

I also thought we needed to make some changes to the rookies and would have been happy enough just to keep two of them.
Greenwood and Redpath were always going to be long shots but they do have the balance of the season to prove their worth.

[Greystache]

Should have picked up someone up in the drafts. Seems a glaring oversight, and if Will gets injured were up the creek.

Surely 3 mature and specialist ruckmen on the senior list is enough to cover potential injuries? If we don't think Cordy is capable of filling an injury gap in his 6th year and turning 24 during the season, then we're just conceding we're wasting our time with him.

I would've liked to have seen us take a project ruckman last draft to develop, but I also would've
only expected them to play if we had 5 talls go down with serious injuries.

The fact that most of are paranoid Minson will get injured or be out of form because we can't rely on our mature depth speaks volumes for me about how far off the level some of them are.

[bulldogtragic]

I also thought we needed to make some changes to the rookies and would have been happy enough just to keep two of them.
Greenwood and Redpath were always going to be long shots but they do have the balance of the season to prove their worth.

Exactly, it's a running commentary more than a determination. I want to believe like most that every decision was a good decision in the post season, I was always confident Marcus would be it and a bit and Stew good too, the lack of list cull, Fuller and no ruck seem to be decisions to reflect upon in many months more seriously.

[Greystache]

I also thought we needed to make some changes to the rookies and would have been happy enough just to keep two of them.
Greenwood and Redpath were always going to be long shots but they do have the balance of the season to prove their worth.

As I said above, surely Cordy is a bigger wasted spot on the list than Greenwood or Redpath. The fact we're talking about needing a player in their early/mid 20's from a state league to give us an emergency ruck coverage, when that is in fact what Cordy is, just tells us we should've cut our losses last year.

Redpath was being trialed in defence last season with some success and he has the tools to potentially make the grade, a 3rd year isn't unreasonable. Likewise Greenwood showed some very good signs in his first year before having his second ruined with injury.

Cordy is 5 years in and is still miles off the level.

[GVGjr]

Surely 3 mature and specialist ruckmen on the senior list is enough to cover potential injuries? If we don't think Cordy is capable of filling an injury gap in his 6th year and turning 24 during the season, then we're just conceding we're wasting our time with him.

I would've liked to have seen us take a project ruckman last draft to develop, but I also would've
only expected them to play if we had 5 talls go down with serious injuries.

The fact that most of are paranoid Minson will get injured or be out of form because we can't rely on our mature depth speaks volumes for me about how far off the level some of them are.

I'm still of the belief that we need a combo ruckman/forward/defender more than a pure ruckman and I don't think is an easy type of player to find at the moment. Minson, Campbell and Cordy with the potential to use Roughead in a short term capacity is actually very well balanced. Port seem to do will using Lobbe and Trengove and I think it's that type of support player we need to really balance the side.

[bornadog]

I'm still of the belief that we need a combo ruckman/forward/defender more than a pure ruckman and I don't think is an easy type of player to find at the moment. Minson, Campbell and Cordy with the potential to use Roughead in a short term capacity is actually very well balanced. Port seem to do will using Lobbe and Trengove and I think it's that type of support player we need to really balance the side.

I don't think we should be considering Roughead unless he doesn't have a match up at all, ie the opposition is short in their forward line.

Going on Stache's comments, we need to throw Cordy in the deep end and see if he is going to make it. I see Campbell as the future number one ruck, so he should stay in the VFL and ruck the majority of the time and learn and develop. Put Cordy in a forward pocket and switch with Minson to give him a chop out. If this fails then we know where Cordy stands.

In any case, we can't continue to have one ruckman and Jones as the relief.

[ledge]

Red path has started to blossom in the VFL but I think it's time we threw Cordy in , it's time we found out if he is any good at AFL level, we won't if we keep playing him in the VFL
Put him in the ruck at least he has the height to put his hand in the way of an oppositions tap.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

As I said above, surely Cordy is a bigger wasted spot on the list than Greenwood or Redpath. The fact we're talking about needing a player in their early/mid 20's from a state league to give us an emergency ruck coverage, when that is in fact what Cordy is, just tells us we should've cut our losses last year.

Redpath was being trialed in defence last season with some success and he has the tools to potentially make the grade, a 3rd year isn't unreasonable. Likewise Greenwood showed some very good signs in his first year before having his second ruined with injury.

Cordy is 5 years in and is still miles off the level.

This is the issue. We have 'options', but they (Cordy) are country miles off even being competitive. Our refusal to cut ties and develop new talent is ridiculous.

I thought Redpath has showed a bit lately, and particularly on the weekend just gone. Moving forward I have more faith in his ability than Cordy's, which is a scathing assessment of a player we coughed up a first round pick for.

[Mofra]

Should have picked up someone up in the drafts. Seems a glaring oversight, and if Will gets injured were up the creek.
There were quite a number of Woofers who were disappointed last year that we didn't pick up a ruckman in the main or rookie drafts.
I hope we've got our eye on someone this year

[ledge]

We have a few talls at footscray in Sullivan and Forte, with Cordy and Campbell it's a pretty tall side.
Whether any are of AFL level it's wait and see.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I don't think we should be considering Roughead unless he doesn't have a match up at all, ie the opposition is short in their forward line.

Going on Stache's comments, we need to throw Cordy in the deep end and see if he is going to make it. I see Campbell as the future number one ruck, so he should stay in the VFL and ruck the majority of the time and learn and develop. Put Cordy in a forward pocket and switch with Minson to give him a chop out. If this fails then we know where Cordy stands.

In any case, we can't continue to have one ruckman and Jones as the relief.

I do not see Cordy making it. He has had chances and failed to impress. His ruck work is below par and struggles when spending so much time forward. Campbell is a better forward prospect and has better rucking skills. His value is being restricted by the MC's obsession to play Will for long periods on the ball. The two outstanding teams in the AFL, Hawthorn and Geelong see the value in playing two ruck men and we should do likewise. I agree with you that it is senseless playing Jones in the ruck, which failed at the weekend and has done so previously.

[Mofra]

Worth noting that there are more contests and ball ups this year which has a substantial impact on the workload on ruckmen - the interchange cap and new style of play may necessitate a genuine second ruck to be played and mark the end of the single ruck set up for teams.

[Go_Dogs]

Worth noting that there are more contests and ball ups this year which has a substantial impact on the workload on ruckmen - the interchange cap and new style of play may necessitate a genuine second ruck to be played and mark the end of the single ruck set up for teams.

Very interesting point. I wonder what we'll see sides do as the season progresses.

Might actually be a blessing for us.

[Mofra]

Very interesting point. I wonder what we'll see sides do as the season progresses.

Might actually be a blessing for us.
I think most of it is due to more throw ins this year off setting small drops in other areas - but with more congested play come more wrestling, battling for the ball which is tiring.
I'd love to know rotation numbers for mids, because I'd suspect even the best might be a couple of percent lower in the middle than normal, resting forward slightly more (i.e. Jobe Watson).

Minson in his AA year was labouring towards the ned of the season, I'd hate to see us destroy him in the ruck with little support, espeically considering we are often playing Stringer deep and as a kid in his second season he has a lot of developing to do and could use a spell.

Even if we don't play Campbell often, giving him 30-40% ruck time every other week helps his development and assists Minson's recovery. Given the drop in output, we're not losing much by having Campbell in there 30% instead of Jones 10% anyway.

[Ozza]

I think most of it is due to more throw ins this year off setting small drops in other areas - but with more congested play come more wrestling, battling for the ball which is tiring.
I'd love to know rotation numbers for mids, because I'd suspect even the best might be a couple of percent lower in the middle than normal, resting forward slightly more (i.e. Jobe Watson).

Minson in his AA year was labouring towards the ned of the season, I'd hate to see us destroy him in the ruck with little support, espeically considering we are often playing Stringer deep and as a kid in his second season he has a lot of developing to do and could use a spell.

Even if we don't play Campbell often, giving him 30-40% ruck time every other week helps his development and assists Minson's recovery. Given the drop in output, we're not losing much by having Campbell in there 30% instead of Jones 10% anyway.

Overall I agree with you here.

In terms of Minson 'labouring' towards the end of last season - his stats were actually up for possessions, contested possession and clearances in the last 4 rounds of the year as compared to his first 18 games.

However, during this time - Campbell played in each of those games, which probably suggests that by having Campbell as a genuine second ruck support - Minson is able to have a greater impact when he is on ball.

What we have to be careful of - is getting too top heavy and losing run (and forward pressure). So if Campbell is brought in - you'd like to think we can maintain or run/pace (or add to it somewhere) in the line up.

[bornadog]

Overall I agree with you here.

In terms of Minson 'labouring' towards the end of last season - his stats were actually up for possessions, contested possession and clearances in the last 4 rounds of the year as compared to his first 18 games.

However, during this time - Campbell played in each of those games, which probably suggests that by having Campbell as a genuine second ruck support - Minson is able to have a greater impact when he is on ball.

What we have to be careful of - is getting too top heavy and losing run (and forward pressure). So if Campbell is brought in - you'd like to think we can maintain or run/pace (or add to it somewhere) in the line up.

If we normal supporters can see this then why doesn't the MC?

[Ozza]

If we normal supporters can see this then why doesn't the MC?

I don't think it is as simple as that though bornadog.

The side being too top heavy is a legitimate concern also. We don't have a great deal of pace as it is - and were exposed in this area on Sunday. So there is an element of risk in playing Campbell - who was pretty useless in his only AFL game this season.

I am in favour of playing Campbell this week, at Etihad - but personally I don't think playing 2 ruckmen, week in week out, should be a given either.

[bornadog]

I don't think it is as simple as that though bornadog.

The side being too top heavy is a legitimate concern also. We don't have a great deal of pace as it is - and were exposed in this area on Sunday. So there is an element of risk in playing Campbell - who was pretty useless in his only AFL game this season.

I am in favour of playing Campbell this week, at Etihad - but personally I don't think playing 2 ruckmen, week in week out, should be a given either.

Then why can teams like Geelong play three ruckman plus have Hawkins up forward. We are already down a tall CHF and one less ruckman so I don't think we are top heavy. Agree Campbell didn't play well early on.

[Ozza]

I don't necessarily think that just because Geelong or Hawthorn do something - that its obvious that we simply MUST follow suit. Its ok to approach games differently!

Geelong are using their sub differently to us - with Blicavs subbed in and Simpson or McIntosh subbed out in some of the games this year. On the weekend - all three played, as Hawthorn have Hale, Rough and McEvoy. And of all those rucks - Simpson, Blicavs and McEvoy all had minimal impact on the game other than cancelling each other out.

I very much doubt that Geelong can play all 3 rucks all year - I might be proven wrong - but I'm betting they'll make a call on at least one of them soon, especially seeing as though Simpson and Blicavs are both pretty ordinary and Mcintosh isn't the player he was.

[Bulldog Joe]

Then why can teams like Geelong play three ruckman plus have Hawkins up forward. We are already down a tall CHF and one less ruckman so I don't think we are top heavy. Agree Campbell didn't play well early on.

You certainly can't compare to Geelong. Their 3rd ruckman is not really a ruckman.

Blicavs is actually a very mobile tall, who can ruck. He has more run that every other player of his height in the competition. If he ever really learns to play the game he could be sensational.

Geelong do not lose mobility through him as we would with our ruck options.

[bornadog]

You certainly can't compare to Geelong. Their 3rd ruckman is not really a ruckman.

Blicavs is actually a very mobile tall, who can ruck. He has more run that every other player of his height in the competition. If he ever really learns to play the game he could be sensational.

Geelong do not lose mobility through him as we would with our ruck options.

So you are happy with one ruck?

[GVGjr]

I don't necessarily think that just because Geelong or Hawthorn do something - that its obvious that we simply MUST follow suit. Its ok to approach games differently!



I agree, different playing lists can try other options. If we had someone like Ports Jackson Trengove or even Chris Dawes (not that I rate him) then we probably wouldn't be asking for a genuine 2nd ruckman to be played.
Minson needs a chop out and the best player to do that and still be of value around the ground when he is not in the ruck is Jordan Roughead. Perhaps if we weren't as reliant on him being our full back we could us if to provide Minson a couple of spells through the game.

Both Campbell and Cordy are better suited to being a full time ruckman which is not ideal for what we currently need although Campbell has at least played some decent games as a forward.

We certainly need to identify and draft or recruit a player that can command a spot in the senior line-up as a forward or even as a defender but is also capable of providing some short bursts in the ruck.

[GVGjr]

So you are happy with one ruck?

At times this is a good option but really we just need a better relief option than Jones.

[Bulldog Joe]

So you are happy with one ruck?

Perhaps a horses for courses situation.

Yes, I think Will was helped by Campbell's emergence towards the end og 2013, but unless he can be a presence ruck or forward we have limited value.

I would like to see Will rest forward occasionly as he would at least require a big body from the opposition.

Towards the end of 2013 I did notice Will was getting more ball and this has disappeared in 2014. Perhaps there is a bigger issue with Will carrying a niggle of some sort, but he is definitely only a shadow of the 2013 version at the moment.

[Murphy'sLore]

I hope he's not back on the soy...

[always right]

Campbell playing to give Will a chop out. Agree with selection but worried about our defensive talks.

[bornadog]

Campbell playing to give Will a chop out. Agree with selection but worried about our defensive talks.

At last some sense with rucks at least.

[Mantis]

At times this is a good option but really we just need a better relief option than Jones.

Has Jones been that bad in the ruck?

[Hotdog60]

Has Jones been that bad in the ruck?

I would have thought he has competed well for a stop gap ruck. When Jones goes in the mids should setup defensive anyway.
My only question on Jones rucking would be the affect on his tank.

[GVGjr]

Has Jones been that bad in the ruck?

We need a slightly better option in my opinion. Someone who could do it for a 15 minute stretch if required. Jones can handle a couple of 5 minute bursts but I think he struggles when he returns to the forward line.

[bornadog]

Has Jones been that bad in the ruck?

Whether he does well or not, when he is in the ruck, means the forward line has no KPP with some height.

[Mofra]

Jones' biggest problem is his tank and he's lucky to manage 1 or 2 hitouts most games when giving a chop-out, so to be honest I think putting him in one of the most physically demanding positions on the field may give him a bit of a wake up in the short term but it certainly doesn't help the team in the long term.

As an aside, is the forward/ruck role one of the hardest to play well? There seems so few players that can actually play the role effectively and those that do often become a team whipping boy.

[Mantis]

One thing I don't understand about how we use Will is why he takes the hit-outs deep in our forward line.. Surely we can use Jones and Campbell in this role when they are in the team.

[Hotdog60]

One thing I don't understand about how we use Will is why he takes the hit-outs deep in our forward line.. Surely we can use Jones and Campbell in this role when they are in the team.

I agree it would make more sense to have him a kick behind play and let the tall forward take the hitout

[Bulldog Joe]

One thing I don't understand about how we use Will is why he takes the hit-outs deep in our forward line.. Surely we can use Jones and Campbell in this role when they are in the team.

One of the strengths Will has provided has been goals from those forward 50 stoppages. Completely understand why he is in there.

[Mantis]

One of the strengths Will has provided has been goals from those forward 50 stoppages. Completely understand why he is in there.

I would like to see the percentage of goals from forward stoppages with Will involved, I reckon it wouldn't even be 10%.. I just see it as a waste of his energy in pushing deep forward when he could park the bus at HF, conserve some petrol tickets and be a factor if the opposition win the ball.

[FrediKanoute]

I would like to see the percentage of goals from forward stoppages with Will involved, I reckon it wouldn't even be 10%.. I just see it as a waste of his energy in pushing deep forward when he could park the bus at HF, conserve some petrol tickets and be a factor if the opposition win the ball.

Agree with this Mantis.

[F'scary]

Time to get a ruckman who can take a pack mark around the ground and pose a marking threat in the FP.

[Greystache]

Should this thread title be changed to "Time to give Will a spell in the reserves"?

Another sub-10 possession match. That's 3 out of 6 matches and not one of 15 or more.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Should this thread title be changed to "Time to give Will a spell in the reserves"?

Another sub-10 possession match. That's 3 out of 6 matches and not one of 15 or more.

He's testing the waters. I thought his first 3 quarters were embarrassing, but he did give us a chance in that last quarter.

Horrible start to the year.

[Eastdog]

Home from the game now. Very disappointed again. We played well for a quarter and a bit and good in the final quarter but the 2nd and 3rd quarters were poor. We just did not run enough in those quarters compared to the first. Jones is simply not good enough for mine. Campbell was a good inclusion as was Dickson.

[boydogs]

Should this thread title be changed to "Time to give Will a spell in the reserves"?

Another sub-10 possession match. That's 3 out of 6 matches and not one of 15 or more.

We won the hitouts 41-27 against Sam Jacobs, one of the league's best ruckmen. Minson took more marks than Jacobs too

[GVGjr]

We won the hitouts 41-27 against Sam Jacobs, one of the league's best ruckmen. Minson took more marks than Jacobs too

Do you think Minson needs help like the option Campbell provides or would Jones with a couple of 5 minute chop outs be the better option.

[bornadog]

Do you think Minson needs help like the option Campbell provides or would Jones with a couple of 5 minute chop outs be the better option.

Its a hard one as Campbell is also along way off AFL level. I prefer both in at this stage.

[always right]

Should this thread title be changed to "Time to give Will a spell in the reserves"?

Another sub-10 possession match. That's 3 out of 6 matches and not one of 15 or more.

For interest sake.....I would love to know how many sub-10 possession matches he played last year as the AA ruckman. Why do people all of a sudden expect Will to become a round the ground specialist when he hasn't been his whole career?

[bornadog]

For interest sake.....I would love to know how many sub-10 possession matches he played last year as the AA ruckman. Why do people all of a sudden expect Will to become a round the ground specialist when he hasn't been his whole career?

Minson lifted the team in the last quarter and we kicked 6.5, about the same as the first three quarters. I think he was revved up at 3/4 time.

[Greystache]

We won the hitouts 41-27 against Sam Jacobs, one of the league's best ruckmen. Minson took more marks than Jacobs too

The hit out count is about as useful as the number of blades of grass on the field. They killed us in the clearances and Minson had no impact despite us continually kicking the ball long to him.

Jacobs is about as limited as Minson, a tap ruckman and nothing more. Good if you play Supercoach I guess.

[bornadog]

The hit out count is about as useful as the number of blades of grass on the field. They killed us in the clearances and Minson had no impact despite us continually kicking the ball long to him.

Jacobs is about as limited as Minson, a tap ruckman and nothing more. Good if you play Supercoach I guess.

We won the clearances, stoppages, centre clearances and cont. poss.

[Greystache]

For interest sake.....I would love to know how many sub-10 possession matches he played last year as the AA ruckman. Why do people all of a sudden expect Will to become a round the ground specialist when he hasn't been his whole career?

I was just a critical of him being a passenger last year between ball ups, so was the coach. Getting 8 touches a match is doing next to nothing for the team.

[F'scary]

Another issue with Minson is that he is utter crap when resting in the FP.

[Go_Dogs]

Another issue with Minson is that he is utter crap when resting in the FP.

He just allowed the big Sauce to get a few too many clearances today, his body work in the contest in the last was much improved, but prior to that he just wasn't up to scratch. He hasn't been our worst player this year, but he's certainly a fair way below what he was generating for us last year around the contest.

He's never going to be a big accumulator or great marking player, but he needs to bash and crash, block and generally make life harder for the opposition midfield because that's where his strengths are.

[F'scary]

He just allowed the big Sauce to get a few too many clearances today, his body work in the contest in the last was much improved, but prior to that he just wasn't up to scratch. He hasn't been our worst player this year, but he's certainly a fair way below what he was generating for us last year around the contest.

He's never going to be a big accumulator or great marking player, but he needs to bash and crash, block and generally make life harder for the opposition midfield because that's where his strengths are.

When he is not rucking, it's best if he goes to the bench. That suggests Campbell stays on the ground next week alternating between FP and relier *!*!*!*!ing - oops relief rucking.

[boydogs]

Do you think Minson needs help like the option Campbell provides or would Jones with a couple of 5 minute chop outs be the better option.

It all depends, whether Will is finding it difficult to get back up week after week, who we are playing, and how Jones & Campbell are going.

[Bulldog Joe]

Criticism of Will this year has been justified, but he was WAY better against Adelaide.

He started well and was a factor in the last quarter.

Like the team he did struggle through the middle of the game, but he clearly had the better of Jacobs overall.

[Axe Man]

For interest sake.....I would love to know how many sub-10 possession matches he played last year as the AA ruckman. Why do people all of a sudden expect Will to become a round the ground specialist when he hasn't been his whole career?

To satisfy your interest, the answer is 0!

His lowest possession games last year were precisely 10 in 3 games. He averaged 14.5 disposals per game.

Link (http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/players/W/Will_Minson.html)

[LostDoggy]

Most of the good tap ruckman are poor around the ground and most of the good around the ground ruckman are really poor tap ruckman. The exceptions are the likes of Cox (Who wasn't a good tap ruckman until he was older) and Naitanui when fit (Freak athleticism is the main reason both in ruck contests and around the ground).

Would people prefer someone like McEvoy who is good around the ground but is very poor in the middle or someone who is a very good tap ruckman but poor around the ground?

Anyway right now Minson is down on form in both areas, although I thought his tapwork was good on Sunday. Libba being given so much attention is hurting the effectiveness they had last year though.

[LostDoggy]

The hit out count is about as useful as the number of blades of grass on the field. They killed us in the clearances and Minson had no impact despite us continually kicking the ball long to him.

Jacobs is about as limited as Minson, a tap ruckman and nothing more. Good if you play Supercoach I guess.

You're mistaken on Jacobs, He was averaging 20 disposals and 6+ marks per game going into Sunday, in that sense, Minson did a good job shutting him down around the ground.

[Greystache]

You're mistaken on Jacobs, He was averaging 20 disposals and 6+ marks per game going into Sunday, in that sense, Minson did a good job shutting him down around the ground.

I haven't looked at this year but his previous 4 seasons he's averaged 11, 13, 13, 11 disposals per game. Saturday was just his career average.

[Mantis]

I haven't looked at this year but his previous 4 seasons he's averaged 11, 13, 13, 11 disposals per game. Saturday was just his career average.

But what if Jacobs was at the start of a 'break-out' season where he is going to almost double his disposals and Will did a great job in curbing his influence?

[Greystache]

But what if Jacobs was at the start of a 'break-out' season where he is going to almost double his disposals and Will did a great job in curbing his influence?

What if my aunty...

Just had a look at his stats this season, 22 and 25 against GWS (without Mumford) and St Kilda are inflating them. I don't see him having become the next Dean Cox overnight.

[Mantis]

Just had a look at his stats this season, 22 and 25 against GWS (without Mumford) and St Kilda are inflating them. I don't see him having become the next Dean Cox overnight.

But when did Dean Cox become the next Dean Cox.. Did it happen overnight?

[bornadog]

What if my aunty...

Just had a look at his stats this season, 22 and 25 against GWS (without Mumford) and St Kilda are inflating them. I don't see him having become the next Dean Cox overnight.

Dale Morris - career average disposals 12 - he must be no good. Means nothing when you are in a certain role in the team.

We know you hate Will, you have told us many many times, but when he became All Australian, we didn't hear anything from you.

Ok, he has had a poor start to the season, but at this stage, he won't be dropped, Campbell won't be replacing him until he matures and learns football.

You want stats, here are the stats for ruckman:



Player
Club
Kicks
Handballs
Disposals
Cont Poss
Marks
Cont marks
Hit-outs
Clearances
Centre clr
Tackles
Goals




TOT
AVG
TOT
AVG
TOT
AVG
TOT
AVG
TOT
AVG
TOT
AVG
TOT
AVG
TOT
AVG
TOT
AVG
TOT
AVG
TOT
AVG



1 Aaron Sandilands
FRE
19
3.2
51
8.5
70
11.7
47
7.8
18
3
12
2
265
44.2
16
2.7
5
0.8
15
2.5
2
0.3



2 Will Minson
WB
30
5
32
5.3
62
10.3
42
7
8
1.3
4
0.7
237
39.5
21
3.5
8
1.3
22
3.7
0
0



3 Robert Warnock
CARL
30
5
25
4.2
55
9.2
45
7.5
7
1.2
1
0.2
197
32.8
26
4.3
8
1.3
12
2
1
0.2



4 Todd Goldstein
NMFC
14
2.3
43
7.2
57
9.5
36
6
9
1.5
2
0.3
181
30.2
16
2.7
3
0.5
24
4
2
0.3



5 Shaun Hampson
RICH
12
2.4
33
6.6
45
9
24
4.8
7
1.4
2
0.4
176
35.2
8
1.6
4
0.8
10
2
0
0



6 Sam Jacobs
ADEL
50
8.3
55
9.2
105
17.5
32
5.3
34
5.7
4
0.7
170
28.3
16
2.7
11
1.8
16
2.7
1
0.2



6 Matthew Lobbe
PORT
28
4.7
35
5.8
63
10.5
36
6
12
2
2
0.3
170
28.3
17
2.8
8
1.3
30
5
4
0.7



8 Shane Mumford
GWS
10
3.3
31
10.3
41
13.7
31
10.3
8
2.7
1
0.3
151
50.3
11
3.7
3
1
24
8
2
0.7



9 Dean Cox
WCE
54
9
42
7
96
16
42
7
28
4.7
7
1.2
145
24.2
12
2
3
0.5
13
2.2
2
0.3



10 Mike Pyke
SYD
41
6.8
24
4
65
10.8
40
6.7
16
2.7
7
1.2
143
23.8
22
3.7
9
1.5
13
2.2
1
0.2


Most of them average around 10 disposals a game. Its the nature of how football is played now

[Greystache]

Dale Morris - career average disposals 12 - he must be no good. Means nothing when you are in a certain role in the team.

Ridiculous comparison. One is a lock down defender, the other spends 95% of the game in the midfield.


We know you hate Will, you have told us many many times, but when he became All Australian, we didn't hear anything from you.

Even more ridiculous. I don't rate pure tap ruckmen, to suggest I hate Will (who is think is an outstanding person and an excellent representative of our club with young supporters) is pure garbage.