Liam Jones: If there's still no consistency by years end??

[bulldogtragic]

I raised it last year and was howled down, which is fair enough. I'm expecting the same again. But... If Jones inconsistency continues then discussion is a good thing as to what to do. Persisting with Josh Hill one year too many cost us a higher draft pick.

Fremantle need a key forward
Bulldogs need a consistent key forward
Liam Jones might be one of these players that needs a trading out to second club to become consistent

Accordingly, Freo may need to get a tall forward, one who they think might thrive after being traded out to a new environment.

Assuming Freo have pick 12 and offer this for Liam Jones. What do the Maccas do?

(P.s. I know it's early, but it's designed to be a running commentary over the year. It may go more 'yes' some weeks. It might go 'no' some weeks. I think it's interesting to track sentiment over a season.)

[Happy Days]

I raised it last year and was howled down, which is fair enough. I'm expecting the same again. But... If Jones inconsistency continues then discussion is a good thing as to what to do. Persisting with Josh Hill one year too many cost us a higher draft pick.

Fremantle need a key forward
Bulldogs need a consistent key forward
Liam Jones might be one of these players that needs a trading out to second club to become consistent

Accordingly, Freo may need to get a tall forward, one who they think might thrive after being traded out to a new environment.

Assuming Freo have pick 12 and offer this for Liam Jones. What do the Maccas do?

(P.s. I know it's early, but it's designed to be a running commentary over the year. It may go more 'yes' some weeks. It might go 'no' some weeks. I think it's interesting to track sentiment over a season.)

Pick 12 (!)?

I'd take that and run.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Pick 12? I would grab it and run so fast it's almost certain I'd ping a hammy!

In all seriousness, there is no way Liam would command a first round pick, and I doubt a second round pick either. If his wild inconsistency continues, my head says I would like us to look elsewhere, but given the terrible lack of options on our list he probably gets another 12 months by default. Reality is that Cordy, Williams (injury prone/out of form prone) Roberts and Redpath (if you want to include him) are even further back than he is.

[LostDoggy]

For pick 12 I think it would be a toss up as to whether it took me a heartbeat or a millisecond to shake hands! It cost us 26 for Crameri, a little older sure, but far more damaging and accomplished then Jones.

With that sort of pick Freo would be much better chasing one of the young tall timbers from GC.

[always right]

The bigger question is whether you would trade him for a third round pick which is around what he would attract. Unless he shows no improvement for the rest of the year I would say no.

[LostDoggy]

Nobody would offer anything above what we got Liam with. His running is fatally flawed. This may sound far-fetched but bear with me as it’s not a new opinion I’ve had of Liam.. He runs flat footed. This imo affects his vision when running to the ball as the vibrations would be like a car on a corrugated road. I believe this is why he has continually overrun the ball drop for marks over the years and also why he predominantly opts for chest marks when arms extended would be the logical option.

Another team would be idiotic to offer anything above a very late first/early second round for him

[craigsahibee]

I'll hold off and wait to see how Liam goes when, Crameri, Stringer, J Grant and Liam get to play a month to 6 weeks of footy together and see how they gel.

[Greystache]

A late second round pick is more realistically a best case scenario, and the next 16 weeks will determine whether we should bite the bullet and move on, or whether we keep working with Liam. The reality is young players will be inconsistent in their performance, young key position players even more so, and young key forwards even more so again. What can't be accepted is inconsistency in their effort, and that's where Jones is.

For me his consistency of effort will be even more important than his consistency of performance for the rest of the season. If we get 6 games of arse busting effort, 5 of mediocre effort, and 5 of the shit he served up on Sunday then I would take whatever is on the table for him and move on. You just can't afford to continue to invest heavily in a player when you have the dual variable of performance and effort fluctuations.

[Ozza]

While I respect that this thread is as a hypothetical/conversation starter;

a) Jones wouldn't be worth pick 12 right now.
b) What we could get for him, wouldn't be worth it - given that he has played 50-odd games and we don't know his ceiling as a player.
c) Will you be starting the same thread re: Jarrad Grant? Considering he has been both in the system longer; and has been arguably more inconsistent over the journey than Jones (or at the very least very similar).

[Remi Moses]

I just think a week ago we weren't talking about this.
The next 16 weeks are telling.
Right now a packet of chips, a week ago a second rounder

[bornadog]

I just think a week ago we weren't talking about this.
The next 16 weeks are telling.
Right now a packet of chips, a week ago a second rounder

supporters are so fickle. One bad game and the knives are out.

[Scorlibo]

Nobody would offer anything above what we got Liam with. His running is fatally flawed. This may sound far-fetched but bear with me as it’s not a new opinion I’ve had of Liam.. He runs flat footed. This imo affects his vision when running to the ball as the vibrations would be like a car on a corrugated road. I believe this is why he has continually overrun the ball drop for marks over the years and also why he predominantly opts for chest marks when arms extended would be the logical option.

Another team would be idiotic to offer anything above a very late first/early second round for him

Very interesting analysis MRM! There might be something in that.

[soupman]

So we put all the hard work into him, pumping that crucial first 50 games of mediocreness in to get him to the point where he should be decent and then get rid of him? No thanks.

Much like with Grant he either makes it or fails as a Bulldogs player. He can play for Freo when he has already failed, not when he just looks likely to not make it.

Besides, the trade will never be worth it. He'll only command what we deem a good pick if he performs, in which case we want to keep him. And if we only get offered crap picks it's because he has been crap and we wouldn't want to hang onto him anyway.

[1eyedog]

Liam was terrible on Sunday but he's been better than he has been bad this season. We've invested 60 games on a 23 year old so let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. If we don't see some consistency at the 80-100 game mark we may need to rethink our approach with him but for the short term he is by far our best option if we want to play a genuine, mobile tall forward.

[bornadog]

Liam was terrible on Sunday but he's been better than he has been bad this season. We've invested 60 games on a 23 year old so let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. If we don't see some consistency at the 80-100 game mark we may need to rethink our approach with him but for the short term he is by far our best option if we want to play a genuine, mobile tall forward.

This ^^^
Like.

[SlimPickens]

Has anyone watched Travis Cloke play this year? Big forwards can be inconsistent, it happens. If Liam can perform like he did in the 3 previous rounds, I'd be more than happy to persist.

[bulldogtragic]

Pick 12 was a hyperthetical number to start the conversation. If I said 2nd or 3rd round the conversation would have been on worth, which is still a valid issue. The point is some players can never reach their level at the first club for whatever reasons, and for them themselves they need a new home. From our clubs view, even a pick like we got Crameri for or out a bit, does the club need to consider its options.

It's not about being fickle as a member, it's about list management and making the hard calls. We held onto Josh Hill one too many years for his value sake. We've a tradition of holding onto all sorts of players for too long, I think it's a legitimate question. If the answer is no, that's fine, but if a good pick gets offered up or Jones as part of a package with picks, I'm just asking the question.

[bulldogtragic]

Has anyone watched Travis Cloke play this year? Big forwards can be inconsistent, it happens. If Liam can perform like he did in the 3 previous rounds, I'd be more than happy to persist.

Yep, if he performs or at least shows he is moving to the next level for the rest of the season, it's a no brainer, he's staying.

[Mofra]

So we put all the hard work into him, pumping that crucial first 50 games of mediocreness in to get him to the point where he should be decent and then get rid of him? No thanks.
This.

He will be worth more to us than we could hope to get at the trade table - our KPF stocks are bare and we trade away the only tall one who looks remotely promising?
He has his flaws, without question - but we couldn't hope to gain in picks what he offers us on the list.

[1eyedog]

Has anyone watched Travis Cloke play this year? Big forwards can be inconsistent, it happens. If Liam can perform like he did in the 3 previous rounds, I'd be more than happy to persist.

Lance has struggled too possibly adapting to a new game plan. Collingwood have changed things up big time and Cloke is struggling. We are still developing a game plan which I'm sure evolves on a weekly basis. Young forwards take time to adjust and will be inconsistent. I'd give Liam all next year as well, when the ball is coming out fluidly from our back half and our young mids develop Liam will be better placed to make a contribution.

[bornadog]

Talls don't grow on trees and take longer to mature.

Jury out on Jones, Campbell and Cordy, and yet to see Roberts and Redpath even take a tiny step.

[GVGjr]

We should stick with Jones because I'm sure we can get more out of him.
We are only 6 games into the season I'd prefer not to forecast a poor season from him.

He has got some weaknesses he needs to work on but I think he has the ability.

[MrMahatma]

He improved his kicking from last year.

That's something. He must've worked at that. He'll come good on the other stuff.

[Dry Rot]

What is his contract status?

[Mofra]

Talls don't grow on trees and take longer to mature.

Jury out on Jones, Campbell and Cordy, and yet to see Roberts and Redpath even take a tiny step.
Agree on Redpath - I really don't see it.
Roberts has some attributes - body positioning in the contest is good, uses the ball well. Not entirely convinced by his pace but he has shown some signs.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Watching the VFL game the other week, I thought Redpath looked OK. Doubtful on his ability to make it at the top level, but he has improved.

Roberts (for mine) seems too slow to play as a third tall, and not strong enough to play as the first or second defender. He has some talent and uses the ball well as you say Mof, so hopefully he can take big strides forward this season.

[Twodogs]

What is his contract status?

End of the year I think. I'm not 100% sure about that though.

This seems to be one question Google can't answer. The best I could find was some talk about him signing an extension from a couple of weeks ago.

[Ghost Dog]

We should stick with Jones because I'm sure we can get more out of him.
We are only 6 games into the season I'd prefer not to forecast a poor season from him.

He has got some weaknesses he needs to work on but I think he has the ability.

Grant improved measurably under BMAC and I am sure that Jonsey can too.

[LostDoggy]

Would there be any point at all in getting rid of him? The only time to get rid of him is when we have 3+ better key forward options

[stefoid]

If Jones was available for a 2nd or 3rd round pick, we would probably be looking at trading him IN.

What we need is better ball movement and delivery out of the back half and through the middle.

Extremely happy with his kicking accuracy this year. Forwards that can kick straight are always dangerous,

[Webby]

Just an observation on Jones:

Liam Jones will never be a star. I think this is apparent. However, I truly think he will be a very, very valuable player for WBFC in the coming years.
He is very similar to Cameron Mooney. Not a star, but a handy, handy player. Mooney was a project player for a good few years.

Just to illustrate, I’ve had a look at Mooney’s career. Consider the following:

Both debuted at 19 and a bit.
At this stage of Jones’s career (5 seasons & 63 games in), Jones has taken more marks and kicked more goals than Mooney had at the same time.
In fact, Jones has averaged 4.8 marks per game versus Mooney’s 2.8 at the same time. He also averages a bit over a goal per game versus Mooney’s 0.72 goals per game at this point.

I know these are just numbers, but it’s clear that Mooney’s best football came between his 8th and 12th seasons in the AFL. He was a very good forward for a 5 year period.
A lot of forwards seems to peak after 7-8 years in the system. Jones is 5 years in. I think he’ll be a good player at 27. That should coincide with big improvements in the club as a whole.

He is well, well worthwhile retaining on our list.....
...... Richmond traded Jay Schulz at the age Liam Jones is now... Go figure that he's played very good footy from his mid to late 20's....!

Please, let's not be Richmond!

[always right]

We should be focusing on our mix of forwards rather than individuals. Jones could still prove to be an important component of our forwardline even if he never develops into a star KPF.

[lemmon]

He's more important to us than the pick in the 40's we'd get for him. I'd hang onto him for that alone

[Sedat]

Just an observation on Jones:

Liam Jones will never be a star. I think this is apparent. However, I truly think he will be a very, very valuable player for WBFC in the coming years.
He is very similar to Cameron Mooney. Not a star, but a handy, handy player. Mooney was a project player for a good few years.

Just to illustrate, I’ve had a look at Mooney’s career. Consider the following:

Both debuted at 19 and a bit.
At this stage of Jones’s career (5 seasons & 63 games in), Jones has taken more marks and kicked more goals than Mooney had at the same time.
In fact, Jones has averaged 4.8 marks per game versus Mooney’s 2.8 at the same time. He also averages a bit over a goal per game versus Mooney’s 0.72 goals per game at this point.

I know these are just numbers, but it’s clear that Mooney’s best football came between his 8th and 12th seasons in the AFL. He was a very good forward for a 5 year period.
A lot of forwards seems to peak after 7-8 years in the system. Jones is 5 years in. I think he’ll be a good player at 27. That should coincide with big improvements in the club as a whole.

He is well, well worthwhile retaining on our list.....
...... Richmond traded Jay Schulz at the age Liam Jones is now... Go figure that he's played very good footy from his mid to late 20's....!

Please, let's not be Richmond!
Well said Webby. There is an obsession with the Bulldogs drafting or trading for a gorilla key forward. I'll settle for a decent key forward (which is what I think Jones can consistently become), another key defensive plank to support Roughead (Talia could end up being this player), some urgent defensive run and skill, and a whole lot more midfield pace and run. Jones in concert with Crameri and Grant in the next 3-4 years should be a competitive and versatile core of the forward line.

[1eyedog]

Well said Webby. There is an obsession with the Bulldogs drafting or trading for a gorilla key forward. I'll settle for a decent key forward (which is what I think Jones can consistently become), another key defensive plank to support Roughead (Talia could end up being this player), some urgent defensive run and skill, and a whole lot more midfield pace and run. Jones in concert with Crameri and Grant in the next 3-4 years should be a competitive and versatile core of the forward line.

If JJ / Tutt / Talia and to a lesser degree Wood do not come on this will require a serious list overhaul if we are going to become a top 4 team in 3-4 years. I think we'll need to trade in to fill even half of these requirements in a big way. Someone else mentioned Andrew Gaff coming out of contract at the end of the year in another thread - that would be one player we should look at very hard in order to address the issues you've raised in your post.

[LostDoggy]

Good grief people overrate Jones. He's an ok player. Probably in the top 40-60 forwards playing AFL footy this year. That's ok. But he gets faced with defenders rated 1-17 playing AFL every week. We are racing a nice quality Camry against a Ferrari week in week out. We HAVE to find a forward who is good enough to hold his own against the very very best boutique top echelon of the AFL defence community. Jones isn't quite that. That's ok. He'll be a ripper 3rd tall.

We have to find a tall forward who can be the number 1 slot. We don't have one yet. It, and outside run, are urgent priorities. Confident the club is actually aware of and looking to address both now, and that is a change from last year. The shocking run we have had may not be a terrible thing longer term.

[Remi Moses]

Gotta be honest I'm thinking he won't get there.
His second and third efforts reek of a guy not fit enough for mine.
Really to get hold of a gun big forward the early picks are where it's at.
I know it's not exactly silver service, but he runs under the ball often.

[bulldogtragic]

This game is what I'm trying to pose the question on. Not against him necessarily personally, but a question as to trade value and team value.

Quite clearly he's very, very talented, but history says he only plays a handful of very good games each year. I think if we can't get a Patton type to take the best defender, then Jones will continue along this path. So assuming a club offers us way overs for him, I'm talking top 20, do we need to consider any questions for him as another inconsistent season next year will douse any trade value forever?

[F'scary]

I know we won but...

SACK HIM.

[bulldogtragic]

I know we won but...

SACK HIM.

Perhaps a little over. I'm asking about our hopes for him versus any trade value IF there is a decent trade value.

I still think we keep him if we can land a number full forward to take the best defender. But for every very good game, there are 4 or so very poor ones.

But stuff it all, Bonts goal!!!!! :)

[F'scary]

Perhaps a little over. I'm asking about our hopes for him versus any trade value IF there is a decent trade value.



Well I don't think the Dees will be chasing him.

[Remi Moses]

You said Stringer was looking like a dud draft pick .
His inconsistencies are killing us and our supporters.

[Hotdog60]

Jones can't handle the main defender and he would benefit from the second or third string. We need someone else to take the heat.

[F'scary]

You said Stringer was looking like a dud draft pick .
His inconsistencies are killing us and our supporters.

Well let's keep playing blokes for 10 years when they manage only 1 or two good games a year. Stringer is not out of the woods yet, either. Mind you, I think his problem is that he has been coached to death.

[bornadog]

Well let's keep playing blokes for 10 years when they manage only 1 or two good games a year. Stringer is not out of the woods yet, either. Mind you, I think his problem is that he has been coached to death.

If you can't see the excitement in Stringer and future potential, then you are a poor judge.

As for Jones, I am willing to wait till he matures a bit more before crossing a line through him.

[F'scary]

If you can't see the excitement in Stringer and future potential, then you are a poor judge.

As for Jones, I am willing to wait till he matures a bit more before crossing a line through him.

Third man in! I'm just saying what you guys would have been saying if instead of winning by a goal we had lost by a goal.

[bornadog]

Third man in! I'm just saying what you guys would have been saying if instead of winning by a goal we had lost by a goal.

The knives would have been out :D

[boydogs]

I think if we can't get a Patton type to take the best defender, then Jones will continue along this path.

Hammer. Nail. Head.

Sometimes the best defender is too much for him and he can't get into it. Classic case of how completing the forward line helps everyone else in it.

Alternatively, make Jones the pack crasher and let Crameri, Grant & Stringer benefit. Stringer wouldn't have kicked 4 today if Hrovat played from the start and Jones was left out

[LostDoggy]

Well let's keep playing blokes for 10 years when they manage only 1 or two good games a year. Stringer is not out of the woods yet, either. Mind you, I think his problem is that he has been coached to death.

His main problem is he broke his freaking leg. Give the kid time, he has superstar written all over him.

[always right]

Well let's keep playing blokes for 10 years when they manage only 1 or two good games a year. Stringer is not out of the woods yet, either. Mind you, I think his problem is that he has been coached to death.

Please share your wisdom further on this observation.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Stringer will be a genuine gun of the comp.

Jones? Not sure what we can do.

[F'scary]

Please share your wisdom further on this observation.

Stringer started off with a bang.

Then the coaches got a hold of him and all the spark went out of his games as they made him focus on things like running to spots to make sure space was filled and making sure he was always behind the ball and making sure he was always running after an opponent.

This is too say nothing about obvious extensive set shot goal kicking re-education.

He's been to Siberia and back. Just let the kid play!

[GVGjr]

Jones is a hard one to predict. He has the talent but it certainly appears that he will struggle if he cops the best tall defender each week. I think we have to stick with him

[always right]

Stringer started off with a bang.

Then the coaches got a hold of him and all the spark went out of his games as they made him focus on things like running to spots to make sure space was filled and making sure he was always behind the ball and making sure he was always running after an opponent.

This is too say nothing about obvious extensive set shot goal kicking re-education.

He's been to Siberia and back. Just let the kid play!

Thanks. You mean they coached him to become a more rounded player and add to his obvious flair. Outrageous.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I think (like most others on WOOF) he has the ability to be a very good player. I think we need yo look at Jones with another view.

Let's not pay over the odds (say 175k a year) and keep him as a depth player on the list.

I'm sure when we have two more seasons into our current guys the team will play and look a lot different to what we have now. I don't see anyone else better than the three talls we played today and yes he had a shocker of a game.

What concerns me is the 1% sometimes he's on and sometimes not. You can always contribute in other ways. If he is not per paired to do so turn down to the VFL for him.

[F'scary]

Thanks. You mean they coached him to become a more rounded player and add to his obvious flair. Outrageous.

No, I mean they coached him to become a midfield drone at the expense of his obvious flair.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Jones is a hard one to predict. He has the talent but it certainly appears that he will struggle if he cops the best tall defender each week. I think we have to stick with him

I think we have to stick with him too, and it's as simple as he plays well - he stays in the side. If he doesn't, he's dropped. We desperately need to find another couple of strong targets, be it through drafting or trading.

As for next week, he has to be dropped after 1 disposal in 3 quarters of football (poor last week, too).

[westdog54]

No, I mean they coached him to become a midfield drone at the expense of his obvious flair.

How typically simplistic of you.

Put it this way: Leon Davis was a player who had obvious flair. James Hird was a well rounded player who could do any job asked of him. If hound prefer him to have flair and little else, well and good. Just don't drag the rest of us there with you.

[F'scary]

How typically simplistic of you.

Put it this way: Leon Davis was a player who had obvious flair. James Hird was a well rounded player who could do any job asked of him. If hound prefer him to have flair and little else, well and good. Just don't drag the rest of us there with you.

The two players you select for the comparison are so unlike Stringer I'm not sure what to make of your profound rebuttal. Stringer is more your Sam Kekovich or Arnold Breidis or Phil Carman or Gary Ablett type.

[always right]

The two players you select for the comparison are so unlike Stringer I'm not sure what to make of your profound rebuttal. Stringer is more your Sam Kekovich or Arnold Breidis or Phil Carman or Gary Ablett type.
You don't have to compare similar players to understand the merits of coaching players to work on their deficiencies. Profound enough for you?

[F'scary]

You don't have to compare similar players to understand the merits of coaching players to work on their deficiencies. Profound enough for you?

I contended that in my opinion it looks as if he has been coached to death. Are you guys coaches or something?

[always right]

I contended that in my opinion it looks as if he has been coached to death. Are you guys coaches or something?

Why? Because we're challenging your viewpoint?

[Dancin' Douggy]

NO NO NO. Stringer is an absolute MONSTER!!!!! He will be a superstar so please don't drag him in to this.

If we lost by 20 goals I would still love Jake.

Liam Jones has been on the list for a long time and certainly has the raw materials..... but. 2/3 good games a year (and I'm being generous) really isn't what is required at the upper echelon.

[Bulldog4life]

I contended that in my opinion it looks as if he has been coached to death. Are you guys coaches or something?

Can't agree with you F'scray. I don't think any player has ever been coached to death.:rolleyes:

[always right]

NO NO NO. Stringer is an absolute MONSTER!!!!! He will be a superstar so please don't drag him in to this.

If we lost by 20 goals I would still love Jake.

Liam Jones has been on the list for a long time and certainly has the raw materials..... but. 2/3 good games a year (and I'm being generous) really isn't what is required at the upper echelon.
I've always maintained that we should judge our forwardline on the mix of players rather than the individuals, none of who are likely to be champions. Jones was disappointing today but I want to see him, Crameri and Grant play together for an extended period to see how they work as a combination.

[GVGjr]

Can't agree with you F'scray. I don't think any player has ever been coached to death.:rolleyes:

Agreed.

This is the beauty of having our own VFL side. He had some flaws and went back to the VFL and worked on them. After a couple of good performances he was given his chance in the seniors again and performed well. We need him to be a versatile player capable of playing in a number of positions. He has learned a lot this year but we hold him to it as well. He will be an even better player because we challenge him to keep getting better. There is no way he has been over coached.

[F'scary]

Why? Because we're challenging your viewpoint?

No, because I seem to have offended you so I wondered if it was because you were into coaching in more than an armchair way or something.

[always right]

No, because I seem to have offended you so I wondered if it was because you were into coaching in more than an armchair way or something.

It's the beauty of Woof. Anything different to my own opinion is offensive.;)

[F'scary]

It's the beauty of Woof. Anything different to my own opinion is offensive.;)

Well today Stringer showed a bit more of his original vim and verve, so for sure while he needs to be coached and needs to fit in with the team's game, hopefully he will be allowed to play with that bit of the rebel streak he came to us with.

[boydogs]

Can't agree with you F'scray. I don't think any player has ever been coached to death.:rolleyes:

I can see where he is coming from. That dribble goal he kicked today might be seen as low percentage, but low percentage for the ordinary player is bread and butter for Jake Stringer. Players like Jake are at risk of being reduced to ordinary by following what works best for most people most of the time and not using their exceptional skills

[F'scary]

Back to the Jones boy. It is pretty clear that we can't build a forward line around him, too inconsistent - curiously, the knock on effect of this is that the club needs to hasten the departure of Cordy.

[westdog54]

Back to the Jones boy. It is pretty clear that we can't build a forward line around him, too inconsistent - curiously, the knock on effect of this is that the club needs to hasten the departure of Cordy.

Again, any opportunity to get a cheap shot in on one of your whipping boys. :rolleyes:

[soupman]

Back to the Jones boy. It is pretty clear that we can't build a forward line around him, too inconsistent - curiously, the knock on effect of this is that the club needs to hasten the departure of Cordy.

Whats the logic here? What does Cordy have to do with anything?

[jeemak]

Again, any opportunity to get a cheap shot in on one of your whipping boys. :rolleyes:


Whats the logic here? What does Cordy have to do with anything?

It was only a matter of time before he'd get dragged into this!

As far as Stringer is concerned I don't have a single issue with instilling some disciplines into his game. What made Stevie J. the player he is today was a serious amount of coaching, a serious amount of honest peer feedback and an understanding from him that he has a place in the team structure first and foremost. Once he took all of those things on board he became a superstar.

Jones effort is so grossly affected by his head-space it isn't funny. The difference in the way he moves when confident and with things going his way is vastly different from the opposite. Whilst I'm sure his fitness isn't where it needs to be and is still a work in progress his attitude needs as much work if not more.

Like others, I think we need to persevere with him as he is clearly talented enough to play at the elite level and contribute. He's just not quite the package to be the main key forward and will benefit from another quality tall playing alongside him.

[always right]

Interesting observation with Stringer. Before he was relegated to the VFL he had developed a habit of playing from behind looking for the easy one out the back. Noticed that yesterday he was working a lot harder and leading at the ball carrier most of the time which was great to see....an obvious by-product of some good coaching.

[jeemak]

Interesting observation with Stringer. Before he was relegated to the VFL he had developed a habit of playing from behind looking for the easy one out the back. Noticed that yesterday he was working a lot harder and leading at the ball carrier most of the time which was great to see....an obvious by-product of some good coaching.

The AFL has changed a lot since the days of Ablett snr, Darren Jarman and the like. Defenders are too fit, strong and good at stopping flair players who play from behind and don't know where to be on the field to be dangerous which was what happened to Stringer a lot throughout his first year with us.

[LostDoggy]

Lets give him the benefit of the doubt until we get a hulking monster forward to take the pressure off Liam

[bulldogtragic]

Lets give him the benefit of the doubt until we get a hulking monster forward to take the pressure off Liam

This is my exact thinking. My other thought is that if this doesn't occur by the end of trade month, and an offer for Liam is made with a top 20 pick (for convo sake) then if this is the top price we will ever get hypothetically, do we take the offer? My thoughts centralise around trade value and trade month more than some of the other comments in the last few pages.

[boydogs]

Interesting observation with Stringer. Before he was relegated to the VFL he had developed a habit of playing from behind looking for the easy one out the back. Noticed that yesterday he was working a lot harder and leading at the ball carrier most of the time which was great to see....an obvious by-product of some good coaching.

Definitely agree with that

[Maddog37]

Jones is 2 years away from being a good consistent player and I believe he will get there. Many of our supporters lack patience with the bigger guys.

[1eyedog]

Perhaps we should approach this with Jay Schultz as the template? Do we have the patience? We've invested so much and can expect so little if we get rid of him at the end of the year.

[soupman]

This is my exact thinking. My other thought is that if this doesn't occur by the end of trade month, and an offer for Liam is made with a top 20 pick (for convo sake) then if this is the top price we will ever get hypothetically, do we take the offer? My thoughts centralise around trade value and trade month more than some of the other comments in the last few pages.

The flipside to this is does it just screw up the next Liam Jones in the same manner?

Jones mkII comes into the side and pretty soon as the only genuine big forward we have cops the number one defender again, and we end up having the same discussion.

[Bulldog Joe]

Jones is 2 years away from being a good consistent player and I believe he will get there. Many of our supporters lack patience with the bigger guys.

This is in line with my thinking. Time will see Jones be a real contributor if we (or someone else) just have the patience to persevere.

[bulldogtragic]

The flipside to this is does it just screw up the next Liam Jones in the same manner?

Jones mkII comes into the side and pretty soon as the only genuine big forward we have cops the number one defender again, and we end up having the same discussion.

Good point, that's what I mean, but in the reverse. If the price was right for that happen, what price would it need to be to part with each other? For argument sake only:

If we can reasonably expect 5 good games from him next year, and we haven't secured Patton (or other gorilla 1st defender taking forward) by 1.55pm and then Freo go hunting for a mature forward, see Liam still around and offer (for argument sake only people, pretend Rhode mkII was running their trading program) Pick 16, and minor tinkering with other live picks (say our 23 for their 34), would we take it?

Or to break it down further:

Patton (or other for our first rounder and change) and Jones. Dream come true.
No gorilla, Pick 5, Jones playing 5 good matches (it's the consistency for me that's the issue), pick 23
No gorilla, Pick 5, Pick 16 and Pick 34 - Jones traded, then aim to trade higher into Round 2

Many assumptions now... If this is the high water mark for Liam with everything going right this year, and assuming his trade value is as high as it might get if we hold onto him, does Jason McCartney talk like Plough in Year of the Dogs about Libba Snr, and maybe Jones is tradeable for a price, and maybe one club gets desperate 5 minutes before the trade window closing?

For the record, I want him to put all that god damn gifted special talent and blitz the rest of the year so folks like myself aren't thinking about trading him because he seemingly wants to be in the Jacks Watts class of footballer.

[bornadog]

Jones is 2 years away from being a good consistent player and I believe he will get there. Many of our supporters lack patience with the bigger guys.

Spot On. Only Freaks like Buddy or Chris Grant perform at an earlier age. Most big guys don't start performing until at least age 25 plus

[Throughandthrough]

There's no way the club would or should give him away. The upside potential is enormous. Lunacy to suggest otherwise. He will be a star of the AFL.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

There's no way the club would or should give him away. The upside potential is enormous. Lunacy to suggest otherwise. He will be a star of the AFL.

I think Jones has the potential to still make it and be a solid contributor, but there is absolutely no chance of him becoming a star.

[BulldogBelle]

He's 23 years old, playing against the best defenders in the most difficult position on the field. Hasn't Hawkins taught us anything?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He's 23 years old, playing against the best defenders in the most difficult position on the field. Hasn't Hawkins taught us anything?

The sentiment is okay, but Jones shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Hawkins. Tom was a big kid who needed a few years to develop, but he always had all the tools (size, ability to mark, game sense, aggression). So much is always made of Hawkins and 'how long he took', but he really didn't take THAT long. He was 22 when he started playing consistent footy, including dominating the 2011 GF.

Jones' biggest flaw is that he has very little football nous. This prevents him from getting to the right positions, timing his leads and reading the flight of the ball. These are things that have not improved from day one. He will hopefully get fitter and stronger, he's improved his kicking, but he'll never have the traits of a star forward.

[Remi Moses]

The sentiment is okay, but Jones shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Hawkins. Tom was a big kid who needed a few years to develop, but he always had all the tools (size, ability to mark, game sense, aggression). So much is always made of Hawkins and 'how long he took', but he really didn't take THAT long. He was 22 when he started playing consistent footy, including dominating the 2011 GF.

Jones' biggest flaw is that he has very little football nous. This prevents him from getting to the right positions, timing his leads and reading the flight of the ball. These are things that have not improved from day one. He will hopefully get fitter and stronger, he's improved his kicking, but he'll never have the traits of a star forward.

I agree , and to be honest he was a pick in the 30's and he plays like one.
Watched the game and his efforts were good, but a key forward has to touch the ball.
With McGovern's meteoric rise with the Eagles, would we look at Darling?
Or is he to much like Crameri?

[jeemak]

Darling is Eagles through and through.

[Maddog37]

Dane Swan was a pick in the 30s.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Jones is an interesting one, IMO we are better to keep him as our FF, we have a few others not far behind him on our list already that will service us OK for the next few years. This will give Jones the two years he ends to reach the 25yo timeframe.

I would not go with trading or Paton as I think we still maintain a simulation story to the forward structure right now.

Before the start of the year I had doubts but with the first year players and the drafting results the way it looks currently, I would back in the recurting to go chase another forward that we can devolve in the VFL.

Things looked to have changed and I feel (like others on here) Jones could be a good player for us for a few years.

My point is if he was drafted now and in our program with the VFL and with our midfield supply/smarts on the improve by default he should get better with the rest of the side.

My second point we have not at any point this year had a forward line that has had our best six forwards play together and I'm sure with a froward line of Jones, Stringer, Crameri, Grant, Dal & Hunter will cause a few headaches.

[LostDoggy]

Should probably forget the 'Patton trade' scenarios. He's a required player at GWS.

[Greystache]

He's 23 years old, playing against the best defenders in the most difficult position on the field. Hasn't Hawkins taught us anything?

Tom Hawkins kicked 62 goals in a season as a 23 years old. If Hawkins is teaching us anything it's that Jones is a long long way behind where Hawkins was at the same age. Not to mention him tearing a Grand Final to pieces as a 22 year old BTW.

[Greystache]

Spot On. Only Freaks like Buddy or Chris Grant perform at an earlier age. Most big guys don't start performing until at least age 25 plus

J Riewoldt 78 goals @ 21 years old
J Roughead 75 @ 21
Hawkins 62 @ 23
Cameron 62 @ 20
Pavlich 61 @ 23
Walker 63 @ 22
N Riewoldt 67 @ 21
Cloke 40 @ 21


All of them are the same as or younger than Jones is currently, and that's just current players. It's hardly freakish.

[jeemak]

Hawkins and Jones are vastly different players in style, build and talent. They're incomparable, though Liam would be a fair bit better than he is today if we moved the ball as openly and quickly as Geelong has over the past six or seven years.

[Mofra]

J Riewoldt 78 goals @ 21 years old
J Roughead 75 @ 21
Hawkins 62 @ 23
Cameron 62 @ 20
Pavlich 61 @ 23
Walker 63 @ 22
N Riewoldt 67 @ 21
Cloke 40 @ 21


All of them are the same as or younger than Jones is currently, and that's just current players. It's hardly freakish.
And all of them were either first rounders, F/S picks or Scholarship/zone selections.

That list highlights the chasm between first-round KPFs and finding KPFs elsewhere.

[jeemak]

And all of them were either first rounders, F/S picks or Scholarship/zone selections.

That list highlights the chasm between first-round KPFs and finding KPFs elsewhere.

Spot on.

It pisses me off when commentators talk about our inability to find a top end KPF these past four or five drafts, as if it is a glaring weakness in our list management strategy. It's like they think the good ones are scattered throughout each draft and readily available and easily identifiable.

[LostDoggy]

Was Taylor Walker? He went at pick 75 or something idiotic like that?

[Bulldog Joe]

Was Taylor Walker? He went at pick 75 or something idiotic like that?

Walker was a NSW Scholarship selection, so not available in the draft and effectively an Adelaide upgrade

[LostDoggy]

Cheers BJ

[Greystache]

Spot on.

It pisses me off when commentators talk about our inability to find a top end KPF these past four or five drafts, as if it is a glaring weakness in our list management strategy. It's like they think the good ones are scattered throughout each draft and readily available and easily identifiable.

We passed on Franklin, Tippett, and J Riewoltd during that time. All of whom have kicked 50+ goals in a season by the age of 22. The point that was being made was only freaks can kick big numbers of goals until late in their careers, which clearly isn't true.

[jeemak]

We passed on Franklin, Tippett, and J Riewoltd during that time. All of whom have kicked 50+ goals in a season by the age of 22. The point that was being made was only freaks can kick big numbers of goals until late in their careers, which clearly isn't true.

That's the point BAD was making, sure.

My point was on the commentary about our drafting these past four or five drafts. Franklin went 10 drafts ago (I don't think we realistically could have picked him anyway if the stories about his interviews were true), Tippett and Riewoldt 7 drafts ago and I would happily have taken either as a KPF rather than Everitt (the mind boggles).

It will be interesting who of those classified as KPF's we passed on from the 2009-2013 drafts makes us regret our selections preceding them.

[Happy Days]

Jones' biggest flaw is that he has very little football nous. This prevents him from getting to the right positions, timing his leads and reading the flight of the ball. These are things that have not improved from day one. He will hopefully get fitter and stronger, he's improved his kicking, but he'll never have the traits of a star forward.

BANG on.

He's absolutely unwilling to double back into packs, for whatever reason. His positioning is terrible and is only really effective when given a lot of space to run and jump at the ball. Compare with a guy like Roberts who despite not having Jones' athleticism or whatever it is we rate about Jones again, positions himself perfectly in a contest when required. It's not that I'm anointing Fletch or anything, more trying to say that this isn't necessarily a matter of inexperience.

I don't think he understands how to play footy and I'm not confident it's something we can fix by continuing to throw games at him and hoping for the best.

[LostDoggy]

That's the point BAD was making, sure.

My point was on the commentary about our drafting these past four or five drafts. Franklin went 10 drafts ago (I don't think we realistically could have picked him anyway if the stories about his interviews were true), Tippett and Riewoldt 7 drafts ago and I would happily have taken either as a KPF rather than Everitt (the mind boggles).

It will be interesting who of those classified as KPF's we passed on from the 2009-2013 drafts makes us regret our selections preceding them.

2009:
- (Howard #15) Ben Griffiths, Jake Carlise, Aaron Black, Jack Gunston, (Jason Tutt #31), Sam Reid, Nathan Vardy

2010
- Isn’t worth talking about as Mitch and Tom were F/S, then next live was Schofield down at #74, then Skinner, Hill late after that. Nothing from #74 onwards.

2011
- We took Clay, then Talia, but there’s not much in the way of KF’s taken in between, or that can be considered to have taken off.

In reality, it’s only the 2009 draft that can be said to be a disappointment in the 2009-2013 timeframe.

[Mofra]

In reality, it’s only the 2009 draft that can be said to be a disappointment in the 2009-2013 timeframe.
Bingo - and you were being kind in 2009 by leaving out Nat Fyfe as being picked after Howard.
None of those listed are really no. 1 key forwards though, although Carlisle can play as the no 1 key back.

Everitt over Riewoldt still hurts though

[jeemak]

2009:
- (Howard #15) Ben Griffiths, Jake Carlise, Aaron Black, Jack Gunston, (Jason Tutt #31), Sam Reid, Nathan Vardy

2010
- Isn’t worth talking about as Mitch and Tom were F/S, then next live was Schofield down at #74, then Skinner, Hill late after that. Nothing from #74 onwards.

2011
- We took Clay, then Talia, but there’s not much in the way of KF’s taken in between, or that can be considered to have taken off.

In reality, it’s only the 2009 draft that can be said to be a disappointment in the 2009-2013 timeframe.


For sure. I struggle to make a case for having not having these guys on our list instead of Howard and Tutt.

Whether any of them turn out to be the type of KPF's the media think we need (with some justification) is another story.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

When you add Fyfe (and even Menzel prior to injuries) to that list, it makes the 2009 draft arguably the worst of all time. It's incomprehensible how we stuffed that up.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

ack.

Everitt over Riewoldt still hurts though

and Frawley (or was he the pick before Everitt?)

[LostDoggy]

When you add Fyfe (and even Menzel prior to injuries) to that list, it makes the 2009 draft arguably the worst of all time. It's incomprehensible how we stuffed that up.

Entire analysis of that draft has been done death. Just went with the KF 'types'. Like 1997, the 2009 draft didn't happen.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Entire analysis of that draft has been done death. Just went with the KF 'types'. Like 1997, the 2009 draft didn't happen.

Change of topic needed.

.. So how 'bout that Bontempelli kid? ;)

[Greystache]

2009:
- (Howard #15) Ben Griffiths, Jake Carlise, Aaron Black, Jack Gunston, (Jason Tutt #31), Sam Reid, Nathan Vardy

2010
- Isn’t worth talking about as Mitch and Tom were F/S, then next live was Schofield down at #74, then Skinner, Hill late after that. Nothing from #74 onwards.

2011
- We took Clay, then Talia, but there’s not much in the way of KF’s taken in between, or that can be considered to have taken off.

In reality, it’s only the 2009 draft that can be said to be a disappointment in the 2009-2013 timeframe.

Let's not lose sight of the fact we pissed away draft picks like drunken sailors at the trade table in the last few seasons under Eade. Our 3rd round pick was a perenial play thing for recycled duds.

For example the Sherman debacle cost us what was effectively pick # 26 in 2010, which incidentally was used by WCE to take Jack Darling.

[LostDoggy]

All true GS, but you can only hit the draft with what's in your hand. We'd have never been treated to the talents of Djerrka if we kept our hand in our pockets ;)

[Greystache]

Change of topic needed.

.. So how 'bout that Bontempelli kid? ;)

Can he play key forward?? ;)

[Happy Days]

Can he play key forward?? ;)

It's kind of scary but he actually can. His hands are pretty great and he's too agile for a lot of KPDs.

Now let's drop this idea completely before we ruin him.

[whythelongface]

Can he play key forward?? ;)

In another life, yes. ;)

[Maddog37]

Just a left field question, how does everyone think Jones would go at Hawthorn?

[jeemak]

Just a left field question, how does everyone think Jones would go at Hawthorn?

He'd be a pretty handy VFL player.

[boydogs]

Just a left field question, how does everyone think Jones would go at Hawthorn?

He'd kick 40 goals a year on the 3rd defender after Roughead/Hale & Gunston were covered

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He'd be a pretty handy VFL player.

This.

Wouldn't get a regular game with Roughy/Gunston/Hale/Shoey etc. ahead of him.

[jeemak]

This.

Wouldn't get a regular game with Roughy/Gunston/Hale/Shoey etc. ahead of him.

That was what I was getting at. He'd not displace anyone for a spot in the side.

He'd be a better player in a team that moved the ball more cleanly and quickly, by how much I'm not so sure.

[whythelongface]

Two games ago he had his best game as an AFL player. Yes he has had two shockers but I don't think dropping him is the answer. I think we need to persist with him and hope that he becomes more consistent in the 1's. His main problem is his inability to outclass the best defender. I would rather persist with him and bring in Grant and maybe a Campbell/ Cordy to assist with the rucking and swap with Minson in the forward line. Thus allowing Jones a bit more freedom as he won't be the main target in the fwd line.

[F'scary]

Two games ago he had his best game as an AFL player. Yes he has had two shockers but I don't think dropping him is the answer. I think we need to persist with him and hope that he becomes more consistent in the 1's. His main problem is his inability to outclass the best defender. I would rather persist with him and bring in Grant and maybe a Campbell/ Cordy to assist with the rucking and swap with Minson in the forward line. Thus allowing Jones a bit more freedom as he won't be the main target in the fwd line.

Don't know about playing Minson in the forward line. Eade tried that. Minson played as if there was a rubber band stretched between his hands. As I've said before, Minson's inability to play forward is actually causing us structural problems. Looking to the future, we will need two ruckman who both pose a marking threat when taking a turn resting forward. Most of the good teams have managed that.

[boydogs]

Don't know about playing Minson in the forward line. Eade tried that. Minson played as if there was a rubber band stretched between his hands. As I've said before, Minson's inability to play forward is actually causing us structural problems. Looking to the future, we will need two ruckman who both pose a marking threat when taking a turn resting forward. Most of the good teams have managed that.

Good post

[LostDoggy]

I still have hope that Ayce can play that ruck / forward role. He is finally getting some continuity in his game. I would hope that he gets a chance before seasons end to play in the seniors.

As for Jones, I still believe he is worth keeping. That extra tall / brute forward we lack may just be the the missing piece of the puzzle to allow Jones to play on the 3rd defender.

[bornadog]

Pretty sure Jones will understand one handball in three quarters of a game is not good enough. Hope he works hard this week and gets back in soon.

[stefoid]

Liams kicking for goal has improved drastically this year - he is consistently very good. That is no small thing.

He, and the midfield kicking it to him, will both improve incrementally over the next couple of years.

Getting rid of him is crazy talk.

[jeemak]

Liams kicking for goal has improved drastically this year - he is consistently very good. That is no small thing.

He, and the midfield kicking it to him, will both improve incrementally over the next couple of years.

Getting rid of him is crazy talk.

If his effort stays at a high level, and his head can keep him in the game.

Can you really make excuses for someone who continually fails to show enough effort and solid attitude against crap teams versus good teams one week against another?

I know by default a player like him will have better times in our team if we improve across the board, but don't we want players who will eventually enjoy that benefit to have been a part of creating it?

That's the big thing for Jones. Is he only going to be the beneficiary of improvement or a cause of it? I find it hard, with the way he's playing, to think he's going to fall into the latter category.

[Topdog]

Crazy to get rid IMO. Not every player develops at the same age and in the same way. I don't see what we have to lose by keeping him. Trading him would get us a pick 30+ just pointless IMO.

[Remi Moses]

Don't know about playing Minson in the forward line. Eade tried that. Minson played as if there was a rubber band stretched between his hands. As I've said before, Minson's inability to play forward is actually causing us structural problems. Looking to the future, we will need two ruckman who both pose a marking threat when taking a turn resting forward. Most of the good teams have managed that.

You and I have banged heads on here occasionally, but I agree with these sentiments.

[Dry Rot]

Crazy to get rid IMO. Not every player develops at the same age and in the same way. I don't see what we have to lose by keeping him. Trading him would get us a pick 30+ just pointless IMO.

But everyone on this thread seems to have forgotten that it isn't just a matter of whether we decide to keep him or not.

It's also a matter of whether Jones wants to stay. He may choose, being uncontracted, to leave.

[Mofra]

Is it worth pointing out that Liam Jones is currently 23 - the same age Dale Morris was on debut?

To suggest he has reached his ceiling as a footballer is crazy as far as I'm concerned.
No tall forward has an easy task at the Bulldogs, especially since any half-decent one is instantly expected to be the savior, a no 1 forward.

Very few talls make it as a forward, and far fewer still make it as the genuine no 1 option. If he becomes a solid player who contributes, that should be enough - and it may take a couple more years.

[The Underdog]

Is it worth pointing out that Liam Jones is currently 23 - the same age Dale Morris was on debut?

To suggest he has reached his ceiling as a footballer is crazy as far as I'm concerned.
No tall forward has an easy task at the Bulldogs, especially since any half-decent one is instantly expected to be the savior, a no 1 forward.

Very few talls make it as a forward, and far fewer still make it as the genuine no 1 option. If he becomes a solid player who contributes, that should be enough - and it may take a couple more years.

I snarkily pointed out on one thread that he's younger than Jack Redpath. He's wildly inconsistent but I'm more than happy with giving him a couple more years, because when/if he puts it together it'd be something to see. I'm not advocating endless patience but don't see the harm in a couple more years.

[Sedat]

I snarkily pointed out on one thread that he's younger than Jack Redpath. He's wildly inconsistent but I'm more than happy with giving him a couple more years, because when/if he puts it together it'd be something to see. I'm not advocating endless patience but don't see the harm in a couple more years.
Agreed, it is madness to consider getting rid of him. He has achieved as much or more as most KP forwards his age, and leading the attack for a poor unskilled team for most of his career to date. He does need to work on contributing much more in his 'poor' games but there is so much upside to his game as he continues to get fitter, stronger, and as the team continues to get better.

[Mantis]

Agreed, it is madness to consider getting rid of him. He has achieved as much or more as most KP forwards his age, and leading the attack for a poor unskilled team for most of his career to date. He does need to work on contributing much more in his 'poor' games but there is so much upside to his game as he continues to get fitter, stronger, and as the team continues to get better.

Yep.

His best footy will be between the age of 25 to 28... It should co-inside with our rise back up the ladder with each benefiting the other.. Stay patient people.

[BulldogBelle]

http://www.sen.com.au/inside-football-display-article-2013/Dogs-cant-Butcher-another-key-pick/70815

If you can get Butcher with a low enough draft pick it would be worth a go. But you wont want to hand over too much.

[bulldogtragic]

So SEN read WOOF. I started this exact rumour with no basis two weeks ago saying in two weeks time this exact rumour will be mentioned on the basis it was, ie. The Dogs need a tall. Bloody predictable. Do I win a prize or something?

But thanks for sharing it TDB, I appreciate you sharing.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I wouldn't want Butcher for free.

[GVGjr]

http://www.sen.com.au/inside-football-display-article-2013/Dogs-cant-Butcher-another-key-pick/70815

If you can get Butcher with a low enough draft pick it would be worth a go. But you wont want to hand over too much.

His form this season reads like this

1 Carl Generally struggled with most things he did. Kicking action is farcical.
2 Adel Kicked one goal and set up two others; improving with each game.
3 SANFL Found the going tough against seasoned Redlegs. -
4 SANFL Well beaten early before slamming five second-half goals. -
5 SANFL Just three possessions in avalanche win. Injured? -
6 SANFL After a quiet first half, burst to life with five majors. -
7 SANFL Managed two goals but unsighted otherwise. -
8 SANFL Kicked three majors but limping late after copping a knock. -
9 SANFL Radar was off but finished with three late goals and five tackles. -
10 SANFL Sprayed them wildly at times but still managed five goals. -
11 SANFL Bye. -
12 SANFL 1.3 return from gettable spots simply not good enough. -
13 SANFL Hot early, played support role for Shaw with three goals. -
14 SANFL Continues to butcher set shots. Wayward with 1.3. -
15 SANFL Workrate was impressive but kicking remains diabolical. -
16 SANFL Bye. -
17 SANFL Two goals, two shanks and cameoed in ruck and defence.

His ability to take a turn in the ruck gives him a bit but his poor kicking would be a big hurdle. I did hear a few weeks back that he might be given a go as a defender and it looks like he spent some time there last week.

[lemmon]

I'm in the negative to Butcher camp but we have done terrific things with Liam Jones' kicking, wonder whether we could do the same with Butcher.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'm in the negative to Butcher camp but we have done terrific things with Liam Jones' kicking, wonder whether we could do the same with Butcher.

Butcher's action is the worst I've ever seen for somebody at the top level. I think he's beyond repair, it's that bad.

WTF were his coaches doing all throughout junior football?

[jeemak]

BT, I think I started the Butcher talk before you did. Whatchya reckon about that!

I don't like having more than one or two liabilities by foot finishing off our good work. At this stage we have Dahlhaus who will as he matures get more exposure to set shots due to his deceptively good marking skills, and then there's Jones, Grant and whoever comes in next that could expose us to wasting good work further.

Pass for me.

[jeemak]

Butcher's action is the worst I've ever seen for somebody at the top level. I think he's beyond repair, it's that bad.

WTF were his coaches doing all throughout junior football?

I shake my head. My Vic Kick and junior training was too regimented for that sort of guff, it would have been yelled out of me quick smart.

[Go_Dogs]

I'm not totally against Butcher due to the physical package he offers, but he does need some serious work on his kicking, and after a few years in the system working on it, that it hasn't improved doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence.

Still, at the right price (ie. very cheap) he may be worth some consideration.

[bulldogtragic]

Just as an observation only, we need to stick with our tall players for any and all of their deficiencies because we've developed them. But we shouldn't get any other teams developing tall players that may have the same or other defecncies.

I accept Butcher is a bad kick, and there's a fine line between Jesse White and Jay Schultz as a recycled KPF.

[stefoid]

Butcher by name.

Dont know much about him, but how good is his marking, really? If its very good, he will draw a crowd which is exactly what we need to give Jones a break further up the field.

[always right]

I don't like his hair.

[whythelongface]

BT, I think I started the Butcher talk before you did. Whatchya reckon about that!

I don't like having more than one or two liabilities by foot finishing off our good work. At this stage we have Dahlhaus who will as he matures get more exposure to set shots due to his deceptively good marking skills, and then there's Jones, Grant and whoever comes in next that could expose us to wasting good work further.

Pass for me.

Do you mean wasteful as set shots? thought these two were reasonably accurate and in particular had Jones had improved significantly. Both are inconsistent as hell but would like to perservere with him both as, I believe, that they have more upside and are both still relatively young.

No to Butcher as well unless we nab him for a very late draft pick. I notice that he has been selected (on an extended bench) to play for Port this weekend. Interesting to see how he goes if he does end up playing

[1eyedog]

Butcher's action is the worst I've ever seen for somebody at the top level. I think he's beyond repair, it's that bad.

WTF were his coaches doing all throughout junior football?

Your obviously too young to remember James Manson.

Butcher has a horrid style as well but he actually has great distance on his kicks. For mine he is an exceptional talent in the air which more than makes up for an ugly ball drop. He has always been a stronger mark than anyone he has played with / against. I remember hearing an interview on him saying that he is confident that he can out mark anyone in a pack scenario.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Butcher has a horrid style as well but he actually has great distance on his kicks. For mine he is an exceptional talent in the air which more than makes up for an ugly ball drop. He has always been a stronger mark than anyone he has played with / against. I remember hearing an interview on him saying that he is confident that he can out mark anyone in a pack scenario.

Butcher shanks/kicks more floaters than anything else - definitely wouldn't say he gets great distance. He is simply an awful kick, and nothing can make up for that. Who cares if you mark the ball 15 times a game if you turn it over 13 or 14 times.

I think his marking is overrated anyway. More of a third tall (which is how Port try to play him behind Schulz and Westhoff, yet he still struggles badly).

[azabob]

So where will he be at years end?

Could he possibly request a trade and or enter the draft?

[Bulldog4life]

So where will he be at years end?

Could he possibly request a trade and or enter the draft?

According to a report I read recently is in discussion with the Club re: for a renewed contract.

[Maddog37]

I hope he stays. I still believe.

[LostDoggy]

Yep keep him around. That game against Collingwood was enough to buy him another contact IMO.

[F'scary]

According to a report I read recently is in discussion with the Club re: for a renewed contract.

After this season, one year contract on reduced pay. We have been giving away too many easy contracts in the last 12-24 months to players with chequered playing records.

[Sedat]

I'd rather keep both Jones and our pick 5 or 6. Massive year for him in 2015 though - he simply needs to contribute in every game he plays, and not become invisible when he is having an off day. I'm still confident he can become a very good key forward - if we don't expect him to become the next Carey, we won't be disappointed. You can win flags with an adequate key forward and not a superstar - Sydney 2012, Geelong 2007 and 2009, West Coke 2007 - and these teams won flags against teams with superstar key forwards.

[1eyedog]

Butcher shanks/kicks more floaters than anything else - definitely wouldn't say he gets great distance. He is simply an awful kick, and nothing can make up for that. Who cares if you mark the ball 15 times a game if you turn it over 13 or 14 times.

I think his marking is overrated anyway. More of a third tall (which is how Port try to play him behind Schulz and Westhoff, yet he still struggles badly).

Have a good look at some of his long goals on youtube.

[Cyberdoggie]

I think in his defence his kicking for goal has been first rate this year.

He has kick 12 goals 4, compare that to Dahlhaus's 17 goals 22 behinds.

Previous years Jones was a far worse kick for goal in both distance and accuracy but I think that has been his big improvement this year.

Pity you just don't know if he is going to come out play like he did against the pies or the complete opposite.

At his best he's our best marking forward currently.
We would get very little for him in a trade compared to what he's probably worth, but I think we may have to decide between he and Grant.

[lemmon]

We would get very little for him in a trade compared to what he's probably worth, but I think we may have to decide between he and Grant.

I don't agree they're competing for the same spot on the list, but if they were that's a relatively easy choice to make isn't it? At Jones' best he can be the guy you build a forward line around, at Grant's he's a nice periphery player to have but 'nice periphery' players don't really win finals or send you up the ladder....not to mention Jones has shown more at AFL level than Grant in a lesser period of time.

[Remi Moses]

Liam plays like a pick 30 odd. He'll be there next season, but it's time he performed consistently.

[F'scary]

I think in his defence his kicking for goal has been first rate this year.

He has kick 12 goals 4, compare that to Dahlhaus's 17 goals 22 behinds.

Previous years Jones was a far worse kick for goal in both distance and accuracy but I think that has been his big improvement this year.

Pity you just don't know if he is going to come out play like he did against the pies or the complete opposite.

At his best he's our best marking forward currently.
We would get very little for him in a trade compared to what he's probably worth, but I think we may have to decide between he and Grant.

At his best, Jones is a very good even excellent KPF. That is not what the problem is with him. It is the awful inconsistency.

2015 has to be his last chance.

[1eyedog]

The thing with available big key position players is that as soon as they're available or becoming available through free agency is that their stocks rise exponentially to those teams that are lacking players in this area. We start to get excited about Casboult / Frawley et al. when really they're just ok players. Liam Jones would attract the interest of at least half a dozen clubs because of his exceptional talent of marking the footy, his mobility and his improved kicking for goal. He is 1 million times more exciting than Casboult when he is on and looks 1 million time more dangerous. I think everyone knows that Liam needs a good run at being the number 2 forward and when that happens he will electrify. If we source a really good key forward (not Campbell / Redpath) then in my mind we actually get two because Liam will be able to show us whet he can really do in the role that he should be playing.

We cannot judge him without playing him with some very solid support. I reckon we'd get more for him than people think on the open market but for mine if we can't support him with a true KPP through 2015 then he stays on the list until we can.