2014 Game Day Round 7 - Essendon V Western Bulldogs

[Eastdog]

Margin: Dogs by 11 points
First Goal: Dickson
Best On Ground: Griffen

[Remi Moses]

Cult Hird by 27 pts
BOG Dahlhaus ( better last week)
1st Goal Crameri( Boo Boo Boo)
Footnote: just for a change can we beat a team with their "backs to the wall", "need a win", "heavily scrutinised".
We need a victory as well

[Greystache]

Dogs by 15 points
BOG- Crameri
First goal- Dickson

[LostDoggy]

Dogs by 23 points
BOG: Boyd
First goal: Crameri

[chef]

Dons by 45
BOG: Dahl
First Goal: Dahl

[bornadog]

Dogs by 1 point

BOG: Libba

First of five Goals to : Crameri -rub it in Stewie

[bulldogtragic]

Dogs by 63 points
BOG and 1st Goal - Minson

[LostDoggy]

Dogs by 16 points
BOG: Crameri
First goal: Jones

[Go_Dogs]

Dogs by 7
BOG Cooney
First Goal Williams

[boydogs]

Dogs by 11
First Goal Stringer
BOG Griffen

[SonofScray]

Dog by 67
1st goal - Crameri
BOG Libba

Just the opportunity to potentially break the hearts of EFC fans and really deliver a stinging blow to that Club has me salivating.

[whythelongface]

Dogs by 21 points.
BOG: Jones (6 goals)
First Goal: Cooney

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Dogs by 5 points
BOG: Boyd
First Goal: Crameri

[soupman]

Two big off field announcements at halftime from Mr Gordon apparently.

[Daughter of the West]

Cheats by 24 (as much as it pains me to type)
First goal - Crammers
BOG - Boyd

[bornadog]

No Changes to final Team, Bonts is sub

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Drug cheats by about 18 shots:rolleyes:

Bog: Griff
1st Goal: Hunter

[G-Mo77]

Bad signs early in this one. Yuck

[LostDoggy]

Gonesky if we dont perform some sort of miracle.....right now!

One thing is we are that terrible they might become complacent 10 mins into the 1st.

[GVGjr]

Talia has made a few errors. That handball early on to Cooney really stopped his run.

[G-Mo77]

Seems like we've weather the storm and settled.

These umpires need to step aside, to many touchy frees being paid.

[LostDoggy]

Wow BT and Darc were preety damning on our setup early.

BT seems to have planted his bias feet already. Love when they are like that and we make em sorry.
Who cares if the umps are whistle happy if its blatent either side its got to be paid.

[G-Mo77]

Who cares if the umps are whistle happy if its blatent either side its got to be paid.

I agree with them. They're not blatant just rubbish touchy frees that could all be no calls.

Wish that Crameri goal went through. That would have cut their scum supporters to the bone.

[bornadog]

Cooney and Dahl on fire, delivery into forward line still poor

[1eyedog]

This place is full of Ferals but at least they seem to be treating Crammers with some respect.

[G-Mo77]

JJ a real worry early.

[1eyedog]

JJ back too early. Minno getting toweled up by Ryder early. Coons playing huge.

[AndrewP6]

This place is full of Ferals but at least they seem to be treating Crammers with some respect.

He's getting solid boos every time he gets near it where I'm sitting (not from me!)

[G-Mo77]

Didn't realise you could take someone after they mark it. New rule?

Umpire 21 is a pissant!!!

[AndrewP6]

This place is full of Ferals but at least they seem to be treating Crammers with some respect.

He's getting solid boos every time he gets near it where I'm sitting.

[GVGjr]

We are playing disciplined football at the moment. Need to be able to lift our scoring in the 2nd half. They will come out strong.

[lemmon]

Minson has been very good around the stoppages for mine, Ryder looks powerless to do anything but jump into him. Has laid some big hits to go with some important taps too

[MrMahatma]

How good is Morris.

You'd have to say, if he played the last 2 weeks we'd have won. Such a gun.

[MrMahatma]

Williams looking lively up forward. Cooney getting a lot of it. Dahl is jet.
Higgins looking smooth.

It's been a good half of footy.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Boy I thought we were gone in the first quarter, Essendon just had players running free everywhere. Good response from the guys to tighten up. One thing the commentators made mention of was that when Essendon were playing an extra man in defense, we were choosing to play our resulting free man in and around the pack that gathers around the ball. The commentators pointed out that this was not an effective use of the spare man, as having just one extra man at the contest was hardly a pivotal advantage.
Minson struggled early, with the crap free kicks the umpire was paying against him. But Will has probably got on top as the game has gone on.
Morris has been very influential for us down back with 3 intercept marks.
Dahl has been very important, and Picken has really locked onto Stanton brilliantly.
I would like to see us kick the first couple of goals, because I'm not sold on our ability this season to remain defensively disciplined for 4 Qtrs.

[1eyedog]

Minson has been very good around the stoppages for mine, Ryder looks powerless to do anything but jump into him. Has laid some big hits to go with some important taps too

Yep Will had a great 2nd quarter totally took charge at the stoppages. This is the first time I have seen us absorb the momentum of the opposition, change the tempo and start playing contested footy on our terms.

[G-Mo77]

Yep Will had a great 2nd quarter totally took charge at the stoppages. This is the first time I have seen us absorb the momentum of the opposition, change the tempo and start playing contested footy on our terms.

Libba off the leash has helped there. Honestly I was happy to see the hard tag go to Griff.

[KT31]

Hopefully we don't get to defensive and keep attacking.
We could haveeasily been a couple more goals up.

[Twodogs]

Did the umpire really penalise Minson for putting his arm up in a contest. Is he meant to headbutt the ball away?

[KT31]

Could have been at least three free kicks to us in the forward line then.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Great forward pressure! Really need to capitalise on it though, and get a score.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Fantastic work Easton Wood, would've gone to ground 12 months ago, and given up a goal to Winderlich.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

All the good early hard work & pressure undone, as Essendon are the one's who score first.
Griffen needed to have kicked one when the opportunity presented for him a few minutes earlier.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

As has been the case for far too long we are showing signs that we are going off the boil pressure, work rate and concentration wise.
Too easy to score against. Yet we have to work three times as hard to get a score for ourselves

[1eyedog]

Yep they can score quick and we can't. Problem for us.

[KT31]

Jones been very ordinary.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Jones must kick this.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Nails it. Great kick Liam.

[jeemak]

Jones been very ordinary.

The delivery to him in the first half was putrid.

Good finish.

[KT31]

Jones been very ordinary.

He must be on Woof.:)

[MrMahatma]

Gee, Jones is a dead eye!

Who's the kicking coach? Give him a pay rise!

[KT31]

Stevens subbed out.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Koby Stevens to be subbed out for Bontempelli.
Sub has been withdrawn, Stevens still on.

[KT31]

Withdrawn sub, Murphy being accessed.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Bombers all over us this quarter. Really frustrating how our workrate seems to widly fluctuate from quarter to quarter.

[MrMahatma]

Game opening up which isn't good news.

[1eyedog]

Withdrawn sub, Murphy being accessed.

And assessed

[jeemak]

Seriously, we lose concentration for ten to fifteen minutes and we drop the bundle on the score board.

[G-Mo77]

Gotta just rush those through for a behind.

[KT31]

If only we had a new member every time returned the ball over.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Very disappointing to see this one start to slip away, through poor organisation, concentration and awareness.

[MrMahatma]

Wake up! For fecks sake!

[KT31]

Great kick from Missy.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Great kick Higgins!

[G-Mo77]

Great goal Higgo. We were desperate for that

[jeemak]

Talia has been very disappointing tonight.

[KT31]

Very poor from JJ.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Well that hurts.
I don't know how Howlett won a two on one like that on the wing. That should not have happened.

[KT31]

Very lucky to be only 13 points behind.

[Jasper]

That last goal really killed us.

[jeemak]

JJ's imperative needed to be get the thing over the boundary. No need to over commit on the tackle.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Our lapses in concentration are unacceptable. We can't keep using the we're a young team learning excuse any more. Plenty of other teams younger than us now, and who are doing it better for longer.
McCartney has some big decisions to make about guys who can't or won't mentally apply themselves to the task for 4 Qtrs.

[ledge]

Johannison is essendons extra man, everything he does he stuffs up, even a free kick he finds a way to turn it over. If ever I have been frustrated with a player it's him.
Get Hrovat or Smith in !

[Remi Moses]

The constant lapses are killing us .
Need more quality when winning the contest .

[azabob]

Our lapses in concentration are unacceptable. We can't keep using the we're a young team learning excuse any more. Plenty of other teams younger than us now, and who are doing it better for longer.
McCartney has some big decisions to make about guys who can't or won't mentally apply themselves to the task for 4 Qtrs.

I haven't really heard much of the young tag the last few weeks. Just the lapses hurt.

[KT31]

Koby subbed out.

[jeemak]

We're leading all major KPI's except for inside 50's which perfectly illustrates how badly we use the ball.

[Remi Moses]

Johannison is essendons extra man, everything he does he stuffs up, even a free kick he finds a way to turn it over. If ever I have been frustrated with a player it's him.
Get Hrovat or Smith in !

Talia's effort in not launching it long, and instead giving it up I'm the corridor was costly

[KT31]

Lucky break Stringer was off.

[jeemak]

Stringer very lucky to get 50. Gotta kick it and does.

Did really well to position himself to advantage. Got to learn when and when not to move it on.

[jeemak]

Jones with a good couple of touches. Minson needed to finish that.

[lemmon]

I've actually been happy with Jones' game tonight. Delivery to him has been poor but he has sprung at the footy and looked clean on the ball

[azabob]

Crameri has been disappointing.

[lemmon]

JJ, that missed handpass caused that. Has been so poor tonight

[MrMahatma]

Crameri has been disappointing.

He's playing?

[jeemak]

Dahl should have stayed down. Left us to exposed and cost a goal.

Excellent kick forward by Picko then. Hunter with a shot that he easily nails.

[wb_age]

Talia is the worst player on our list. Can't kick, poor decision making, loses his opponent constantly when he is meant to be a lock down defender. Terrible!

[KT31]

C'mon Dogs lets get a couple in a row.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Well done Picken, nice kick and great mark and goal to Hunter.

[KT31]

Gee we are good at hand balling to players under pressure.

[KT31]

Need to have a look at our forward set up.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I don't think I've seen a team in living memory who have less a clue than us in how to use the ball going inside our forward line. We are seriously the most frustrating team to watch.

[NoParkingOnMatchDays]

Yeah but if we win the contested ball the goals will take care of themselves - pffttt

[jeemak]

I think it's absolutely disgraceful from our players that we allowed them to chip it around for a minute just now. Leadership is severely lacking at our football club. It's non-existent sometimes.

[KT31]

Watson can just throw the ball away one handed ????

[ledge]

What's with Talia and johannison doing in our forward line ?????

[Topdog]

Down by 2 goals with 2 minutes left and we have a spare man in defence. Give me strength

[azabob]

I think it's absolutely disgraceful from our players that we allowed them to chip it around for a minute just now. Leadership is severely lacking at our football club. It's non-existent sometimes.

Agree. Happened last week also.

Boyd, Griffen, Cooney, Crameri - all senior players - all extremely disappointing.

[lemmon]

This loss hurts, didn't just shoot ourselves in the foot but took a bazooka to the bloody thing

[ledge]

I'm a Macca fan but tonight he lost this game.
He took any chance we had out with two decisions , told them to bomb it into forward line and takes out any sort of forwards out and put Talia and johannison down there .. That made no sense whatsoever, made me sick actually to see it.

[jeemak]

What I'm looking for from our players is to improve at the little things.

Do not allow Fletcher to sit by himself across half back. Do not allow five metres with only a few minutes to go so the opposition which is eight points up can waste a quarter of the time that is left on the clock.

This isn't a coaching issue. This is a player issue. They're letting themselves down desperately with these issues on a weekly basis.

The sooner they can learn to concentrate and work hard consistently the better. We may just win a game or two.

[jeemak]

I'm a Macca fan but tonight he lost this game.
He took any chance we had out with two decisions , told them to bomb it into forward line and takes out any sort of forwards out and put Talia and johannison down there .. That made no sense whatsoever, made me sick actually to see it.

Bombing it wasn't the call. It was get it in there quickly to one on ones. There's a very very big difference.

[firstdogonthemoon]

How the hell did we give that up? I've been watching this game for a while now but I still don't have a footy brain. So I really don't understand how we gave that up. Where is the bankers and anchors thread I want to complain some more.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

This loss hurts, didn't just shoot ourselves in the foot but took a bazooka to the bloody thing

The only thing we consistently do is play inconsistently

[azabob]

I'm a Macca fan but tonight he lost this game.
He took any chance we had out with two decisions , told them to bomb it into forward line and takes out any sort of forwards out and put Talia and johannison down there .. That made no sense whatsoever, made me sick actually to see it.

How do you know BMac said bomb it in?

[jeemak]

How do you know BMac said bomb it in?


Ben Graham was on the bench mich'd up. The message was given to Jack Mac to get out there and tell the players to get it in quickly to one on ones.

[bulldogtragic]

Down by 2 goals with 2 minutes left and we have a spare man in defence. Give me strength

I don't have it. Wtf is this. We need to learn this??? How does this happen???

[Remi Moses]

For crying out friggin loud, how hard is it to lower the eyes going forward ?
Allowing Fletcher not to engage in a contest is unforgiveable.

[G-Mo77]

Frustrating loss. Got to be smarter, bombing to our forward 50 outnumbered just isn't going to work. Not sure how we could allow a lose one to stay there.

Good effort apart from some smaller lapses this week. We did just drop a winnable game so it's nothing to feel good about.

[bulldogtragic]

Williams was apparently on the guy who took 10 uncontested marks in our forward 50 in the last qtr.

[G-Mo77]

Ben Graham was on the bench mich'd up. The message was given to Jack Mac to get out there and tell the players to get it in quickly to one on ones.

One on ones not 2 or 3 on 1's.

[Hot_Doggies]

I'm a Macca fan but tonight he lost this game.
He took any chance we had out with two decisions , told them to bomb it into forward line and takes out any sort of forwards out and put Talia and johannison down there .. That made no sense whatsoever, made me sick actually to see it.

Bomb it in?? Who said that? Get it in quick to one on ones I heard.

[ledge]

He said get it in quick and long according to King, we struggle as it is with no big marking forwards and he put Talia and johannison down there???
Put Minson down there.. At least one tall !!
Then johannison goes up for marks when we already had one up.
I'm fair dinkum peed off with Maccas forward line set up... Put Backmen there ????

[jeemak]

One on ones not 2 or 3 on 1's.

Move it quickly and kick it away from the guy who's been getting easy kicks across half back his entire career!

[KT31]

Similar to last week, we had great pressure in the forward line for the first quarter and then little for the remainder of the game.
Positive was we kept at it if this was last season we would have lost by 60 plus, negatives are some baffling player and coaching decisions.

[G-Mo77]

Move it quickly and kick it away from the guy who's been getting easy kicks across half back his entire career!

Sadly he's the only guy we could hit on the chest in our forward 50.

[bornadog]

On the train going home and fuming we lost this. Bad third quarter really was the difference in the end.

[KT31]

Bomb it in?? Who said that? Get it in quick to one on ones I heard.

Might have been ok if Big Wil was down there or we played Campbell this week.

[G-Mo77]

On the train going home and fuming we lost this. Bad third quarter really was the difference in the end.

One of the positives was that the lapses weren't as long as previous weeks. If that can be a positive.

Good luck on the train.

[ledge]

Opposition just know they are playing us and go in with talls and we are done.

[KT31]

Dee's will be on a high next week, big danger game for us now.

[jeemak]

Sadly he's the only guy we could hit on the chest in our forward 50.

Graham told the players to make sure Fletcher wasn't by himself more than once whilst on the bench. I'm very certain they'd have mentioned it all week to the players and all throughout the breaks during the game.

I'm pointing the finger at the playing group for that. The Bombers do everything they can to get Fletcher free and the result is players end up in different spots on the field than they expect to be and players end up in defence by themselves. They need to be smart enough to rotate around in line with their opponents to ensure numbers are spread evenly across the ground.

It's basic stuff, and stuff that needs to be accounted for by those on the ground. There's a limitation to what can be done from the coaches box.

[G-Mo77]

Dee's will be on a high next week, big danger game for us now.

We aren't better than Melbourne. No reason for it to be a danger game for us, more like a must win!

[bornadog]

Opposition just know they are playing us and go in with talls and we are done.

One difference is they can mark a ball

[1eyedog]

Getting tired of honorable losses. We just don't know how to win at atm.

Getting tired of throwing players all over the place also, appear very reactive and a little unprofessional. JJ at FF! Really?

[bulldogtragic]

We aren't better than Melbourne. No reason for it to be a danger game for us, more like a must win!

Very well articulated GMo. This is massive. Preseason it was about this soft draw, not too soft at the moment.

[Remi Moses]

Agree ,( the players and I'm talking about the senior players) have to take the reins in that situation .

[ledge]

Ok can someone please explain why we put johannison and Talia in our forward line ??

[bornadog]

Getting tired of honorable losses. We just don't know how to win at atm.

Getting tired of throwing players all over the place also, appear very reactive and a little unprofessional. JJ at FF! Really?

I don't mind the coach trying something to win the game. Crameri and soft as butter Dickson did nothing today

[azabob]

I don't mind the coach trying something to win the game. Crameri and soft as butter Dickson did nothing today

Along with Boyd, Cooney and Griffen.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Ok can someone please explain why we put johannison and Talia in our forward line ??

Basic the coaching team ran out of idea's. They should have got my coaches from the U/9's or u/11's as at least they told us to man up!

WQe could have/should have ran over the top of them tonight but just lack the confidence to take the game on after Minson missed that goal.

[jeemak]

Ok can someone please explain why we put johannison and Talia in our forward line ??

I would suggest it was to ensure they didn't turn the ball over on the wing and or across half back as they had done for 85% of the game prior to that. They were a liability where they'd been playing and unfortunately you can only have so many players on the interchange bench meaning they had to play somewhere.

[1eyedog]

I don't mind the coach trying something to win the game. Crameri and soft as butter Dickson did nothing today

Well then Murph or Stringer forward then not JJ. At least put a potential match winner up there. After being our best forward last week Dick was unsighted.

[EasternWest]

Put Minson down there.. At least one tall !!



Might have been ok if Big Wil was down there

Quite frankly I'd rather JJ going for it than Minson.

At least JJ would be 1 in 36 chance.

[G-Mo77]

I would suggest it was to ensure they didn't turn the ball over on the wing and or across half back as they had done for 85% of the game prior to that. They were a liability where they'd been playing and unfortunately you can only have so many players on the interchange bench.

Ouch. Talia has been real poor since coming back. I'm sticking with him though JJ as well. JJ made a ton of errors a lot was from trying to my be the ball quickly. That should be encouraged not discouraged.

[KT31]

I would suggest it was to ensure they didn't turn the ball over on the wing and or across half back as they had done for 85% of the game prior to that. They were a liability where they'd been playing and unfortunately you can only have so many players on the interchange bench meaning they had to play somewhere.

Well said.
Been big raps on both of these players on Woof, both were very poor tonight.

[jeemak]

Ouch. Talia has been real poor since coming back. I'm sticking with him though JJ as well. JJ made a ton of errors a lot was from trying to my be the ball quickly. That should be encouraged not discouraged.

Agreed, but a time has to come when you can't keep allowing the turnovers or lack of awareness and surety with the ball.

I'm happy to keep JJ in as he's trying to be proactive. I think Talia has a bit of defensive positioning work to do in the seconds.

[Remi Moses]

Need games into both of them.
Carried 12 players with less than 70 games ( not an excuse, but you don't get comfortable in your own skin until that mark)
JJ is going to frustrate with his mistakes, but we need to encourage run and carry

[jeemak]

Need games into both of them.
Carried 12 players with less than 70 games ( not an excuse, but you don't get comfortable in your own skin until that mark)
JJ is going to frustrate with his mistakes, but we need to encourage run and carry

I just fear with Talia at the senior level that semi-reasonable forwards will smash him given the chance and only on occasion will he get to beat average or poor forwards until he learns his craft more.

It will be interesting to see how things pan out tomorrow at Footscray. If another tall sticks his hand up tomorrow we could end up with Williams playing back and one of Campbell or Cordy up forward next week.

If that occurs I think Talia should go back to Footscray for a few weeks after watching the tapes and work his arse off on the things he clearly lacked in today.

[Twodogs]

The logical reason would have been to at least provide a contest with Flethcher.

[jeemak]

Just had Bmac speaking with Sam Lane and it was pretty clear he was frustrated with what happened on the ground from a positioning and match up perspective.

Mentioned talls not being where they needed to be on the field, and smalls not being there as well. Also talked about match ups needing to be worked through on the fly, given that instruction to do what is required is provided prior to the game unfolding.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Lack of a winning forward option = we lost.

Crameri, Williams and Dickson woeful, Hunter poor, Jones not much better. Dahl good when he was there, but seemed to play more in the midfield in the second half.

Still have grave concerns over our coaching and match day selections. Playing (and thus allowing them) a loose man rarely helps us when our forward half is already so average, let alone competing out-numbered. In this specific game it killed us, with Fletcher/Hooker both having field days/quarters. Ten coaches in the box watching this, no action taken. Brilliant. (Graham didn't say to man up Fletcher, he said to kick it quick to even numbers/one on ones - but we simply didn't set-up this way).

The decision to drop Campbell, play Williams, and then use Jones in the ruck was laughable. For some reason Campbell has his haters, and whilst he has much to work on, he rarely gets out-marked and is capable in the ruck. Jones got smashed in the ruck whilst Williams (and Jones and Crameri) struggled to mark whilst allowing their opponents to out-mark them repeatedly. This is unforgivable as a tall forward, and it happened time and time and time again. Even looking past the selection in which IMO wasn't the right one, why didn't Williams be the one to do some relief ruck work? Jones has no tank, he can't ruck, and he's a better forward than Williams. It makes no sense on all accounts.

My frustration at selections and overall coaching can't be understated. Amateur hour.

[jeemak]

Sorry TBB, but Graham did mention more than once to not let Fletcher be left alone. There's only so much you can coach into a team to not allow a side like EFC do everything they can do to get him free.

If you, me and just about any luddite can see it you can be sure the coaching team can.

The players weren't smart enough to rotate with the EFC players as they rotated to get Fletcher free. It happens to inexperienced teams all the time. Funny how he never gets to completely smash the good experienced teams like he did ours tonight.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Just had Bmac speaking with Sam Lane and it was pretty clear he was frustrated with what happened on the ground from a positioning and match up perspective.

Mentioned talls not being where they needed to be on the field, and smalls not being there as well. Also talked about match ups needing to be worked through on the fly, given that instruction to do what is required is provided prior to the game unfolding.

We keep hearing this week in/week out, but what changes? The buck stops with him. There has been no progression.

We persist with playing a loose man each week, and every week, the opposition's loose man does more damage - which IMO is due to the incompetence of our forward line. (eg. Jones and Williams have little football nous).

[Remi Moses]

That's all good, but players should be playing to instruction. If they're not then they should be out of the side.
Our senior players should be taking the reins and engaging Fletcher in the play.
That was the constant message to Ben Graham on the bench .

[Remi Moses]

We keep hearing this week in/week out, but what changes? The buck stops with him. There has been no progression.

We persist with playing a loose man each week, and every week, the opposition's loose man does more damage - which IMO is due to the incompetence of our forward line. (eg. Jones and Williams have little football nous).

They made 4 changes this week. How many do you want?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

They made 4 changes this week. How many do you want?

Read it again.

It was a rhetorical question in regards to what happens on the field every week, not who and who doesn't play.

Either we have a collective group of very dumb footballers, or McCartney and his message isn't effective.

[jeemak]

Read it again.

It was a rhetorical question in regards to what happens on the field every week, not who and who doesn't play.

Either we have a collective group of very dumb footballers, or McCartney and his message isn't effective.

I think this is an issue (mainly due to experience), and coupled with an introverted and maybe under performing leadership structure in the playing group we are starting from a long way back.

Another poster has quoted a list of 12 players under 70 games played tonight. That's a lot, and it takes a lot of work to get them to fall in to line with the message.

[jeemak]

TBB - On your point in not selecting Campbell I think the MC erred in not giving him another game. It is clear we are exposed when we have Jones or Williams in the ruck.

IMO he should have been given another crack, irrespective of how poor he was last week (and he was quite poor).

It was the same issue again with the forwards we had in the team. They didn't work hard enough often enough to make early position (or at leas they didn't seem to from the coverage), and they weren't helped by a lack of decisive and varied ball movement forward from up the ground.

[always right]

May I ask which posters went to the match? Thought we set up really well today and there was a lot of thought given to our match ups and structure. Worked well for the first half but we fell into some old habits in the second half.


So much to like about tonight but the match was there for the taking and we failed to put our foot on their throat.

[jeemak]

Didn't get there (though I do have an away membership). Interesting point Always Right.

Can you elaborate on how it played out from your perspective?

[Eastdog]

So disappointed tonight. We once again had an opportunity to win the game but stuffed it again.

[LostDoggy]

Third quarter. At different stages out of a stoppage, Chapman, Goddard and Heppell all had 5/10 metres of space which resulted in 3 goals. It was pathetic from our midfield and it cost us the game.

[Topdog]

Re: Fletcher. Surely if we so wanted a match up on Fletcher at some point we send on our runner to a particular player and say "stick on Fletcher like ****ing g lue".
Still trying to work out the spare man defence while chasing the game.....

[AndrewP6]

May I ask which posters went to the match?

I did.

[jeemak]

Re: Fletcher. Surely if we so wanted a match up on Fletcher at some point we send on our runner to a particular player and say "stick on Fletcher like ****ing g lue".
Still trying to work out the spare man defence while chasing the game.....

It's gonna sound patronising, but it's not as simple as that. What we heard from the bench with Graham mich'd up would only have been a small part of the overall message going out to the players.

The runners would have been doing their best to ensure the team rotated to get some numbers around Fletcher - but not directly on him.

You have to remember the Bombers set up the way they do to make sure you man up on Fletcher. They do that so they can get open space forward of the centre, and create numbers wide in defence to receive the ball on the way out. They actually want you to man Fletcher and all of their defenders, as it enables them to get the game on their terms with open space to run into. If we allowed them an open game with no man back they'd have smashed us completely.

[bornadog]

Along with Boyd, Cooney and Griffen.

You do realise Boyd shut Watson out of the game. Watson had to be moved forward in the 3rd quarter.

[Eastdog]

May I ask which posters went to the match?

I was there doing standing room on Level 1 at the Footscray end behind the cheer squad.

[always right]

Didn't get there (though I do have an away membership). Interesting point Always Right.

Can you elaborate on how it played out from your perspective?

Williams was clearly played deep forward with a role of not only occupying Fletcher or Hooker but to take them out wide. Thought this worked well in the first half with Williams leading well. Unfortunately he didn't sustain it and Fletcher was allowed to position himself as he wanted in the second half.

McCartney's match ups were spot on. Picken cleaned up Stanton, Stevens nullified Watson in the first half, Wood was excellent on Winderlich. Dahlhaus was dominant in the first half which caused ESSENDON to switch Hocking away from Griffen and onto Dahlhaus. This was almost the turning point of the match IMO as Hocking was able to quieten Dahl however Griffen wasn't able to to take advantage. Dahl was the key to our forward line with Crameri so poor and Jones struggling to impact despite being significantly better than last week.

We really should have won this match but we simply didn't have enough players willing to take the game on. Higgins and Dahlhaus were the exception and Boyd was also really constructive. My biggest criticism is that we often have bloke clear through the middle but too many times off half back our first instinct is to kick it short to a player out wide. If we used the corridor more I'm certain our forward entries would be far more effective.

One more thing to get off my chest. Is it written into the rules that umpires are not allowed to pay free kicks against Fletcher or Watson?

[always right]

You do realise Boyd shut Watson out of the game. Watson had to be moved forward in the 3rd quarter.

Boyd was very good.....again.

[bornadog]

May I ask which posters went to the match? Thought we set up really well today and there was a lot of thought given to our match ups and structure. Worked well for the first half but we fell into some old habits in the second half.


So much to like about tonight but the match was there for the taking and we failed to put our foot on their throat.

Yes I went at its frustrating, we killed them with 40 more disposals and in contested possessions but our delivery into the forward line was pathetic with some woeful kicking. The only area other than the scoreboard that Essendon won was total marks. We just don't have tall players, and I mean over 195cm that take marks.

[Remi Moses]

We cut Essendon out of using the corridor after the first 10 minutes . His use of Higgins has been a success as well.

[AndrewP6]

Talia is the worst player on our list. Can't kick, poor decision making, loses his opponent constantly when he is meant to be a lock down defender. Terrible!

He's 21 years old...

[always right]

Yes I went at its frustrating, we killed them with 40 more disposals and in contested possessions but our delivery into the forward line was pathetic with some woeful kicking. The only area other than the scoreboard that Essendon won was total marks. We just don't have tall players, and I mean over 195cm that take marks.

I wasn't trying to pot anyone but I reckon you had to be at the game to see how we tried to set up for this match. I reckon there was a lot to like about the way the MC approached this match which may not be apparent on the TV. That's not to forgive the last quarter where we played really dumb football. Whether it is the coach or the players not following instructions it's hard to be certain.

[bornadog]

I wasn't trying to pot anyone but I reckon you had to be at the game to see how we tried to set up for this match. I reckon there was a lot to like about the way the MC approached this match which may not be apparent on the TV. That's not to forgive the last quarter where we played really dumb football. Whether it is the coach or the players not following instructions it's hard to be certain.

I agree the match ups were right. I still think we need another tall in the back line. If Roughead played today, he could have at least matched Daniher for height. Poor Talia was about 10cm too short. We can't go into a game so short but I guess no one is putting up their hand.

[jeemak]

I wasn't trying to pot anyone but I reckon you had to be at the game to see how we tried to set up for this match. I reckon there was a lot to like about the way the MC approached this match which may not be apparent on the TV. That's not to forgive the last quarter where we played really dumb football. Whether it is the coach or the players not following instructions it's hard to be certain.

We were up to our eyeballs in it in 2009 during a prelim and ended up playing the same way we did in the last quarter as we did today.

Having a strong tall forward that is able to command the all on the lead and one out makes such a difference to how you move the ball forward and how the opposition defends you. So many other avenues to goal open up as a result.


Thanks Always Right for your in depth response to my previous post. Very good feedback.

[Eastdog]

He's 21 years old...

Yes that's what some forget. He could just easily play great in the next few games. I'd be looking more at Jones as one of our worst and he has been on our list for longer.

[jeemak]

Yes that's what some forget. He could just easily play great in the next few games. I'd be looking more at Jones as one of our worst and he has been on our list for longer.

The delivery to Jones in the first and second quarter tonight hardly helped him impact the game. I thought after that he did some nice things.

He still needs to work harder for longer across games, but tonight he wasn't the reason why we didn't win.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Having a strong tall forward that is able to command the all on the lead and one out makes such a difference to how you move the ball forward and how the opposition defends you. So many other avenues to goal open up as a result..

We need to make a list of all the good key forwards under 26 years of age in the competition and start splashing around serious coin. Eg. Patton --> 700,000K a year.

I'd even like us to ask Jack Riewoldt, "how does 750,00K sound?"

We won't win anything until we start finding or stealing some genuine stars for the forward line. I know it is easier said than done, and everything is done within reason, but my point is that we need to make some big offers.

[The bulldog tragician]

Williams was clearly played deep forward with a role of not only occupying Fletcher or Hooker but to take them out wide. Thought this worked well in the first half with Williams leading well. Unfortunately he didn't sustain it and Fletcher was allowed to position himself as he wanted in the second half.

McCartney's match ups were spot on. Picken cleaned up Stanton, Stevens nullified Watson in the first half, Wood was excellent on Winderlich. Dahlhaus was dominant in the first half which caused ESSENDON to switch Hocking away from Griffen and onto Dahlhaus. This was almost the turning point of the match IMO as Hocking was able to quieten Dahl however Griffen wasn't able to to take advantage. Dahl was the key to our forward line with Crameri so poor and Jones struggling to impact despite being significantly better than last week.

We really should have won this match but we simply didn't have enough players willing to take the game on. Higgins and Dahlhaus were the exception and Boyd was also really constructive. My biggest criticism is that we often have bloke clear through the middle but too many times off half back our first instinct is to kick it short to a player out wide. If we used the corridor more I'm certain our forward entries would be far more effective.

One more thing to get off my chest. Is it written into the rules that umpires are not allowed to pay free kicks against Fletcher or Watson?

Really good summary which makes the loss stick in my throat even more. Yes I was there too. I actually thought there were reasonable numbers of Dogs fans.

It was very noticeable to me that we almost always move the ball towards the boundary line and ignore options in the centre. Better footy brains than I might be able to explain if this is likely to be coached, just general lack of confidence which leads to the apparently safer option, or our forwards lack of presentation. I don't think they worked hard to make themselves targets tonight.

[Eastdog]

The delivery to Jones in the first and second quarter tonight hardly helped him impact the game. I thought after that he did some nice things.

He still needs to work harder for longer across games, but tonight he wasn't the reason why we didn't win.

Yeah our forward entries count has been poor. Do you see from our list right now that Campbell can develop into that full forward option we need. When the delivery was there last week he gave us a presence up there. Who can we trade to get Jeremy Cameron? I'd imagine we need to give Griff up which I don't think we should do as he is an A grade player.

[jeemak]

We need to make a list of all the good key forwards under 26 years of age in the competition and start splashing around serious coin. Eg. Patton --> 700,000K a year.

I'd even like us to ask Jack Riewoldt, "how does 750,00K sound?"

We won't win anything until we start finding or stealing some genuine stars for the forward line. I know it is easier said than done, and everything is done within reason, but my point is that we need to make some big offers.

I think we need to wait to see how having Grant, Crameri and Jones works out for us in the second half of this year before we start throwing big money around. It will tell us what type of forward we really need to grab.

There's a bit of a gap in our ability to score multiple goals from small forwards who can put pressure on consistently as well. Dahl is averaging a bit over one goal a game now, though it looks as if he's going to be a midfielder a lot of the time.

I think Hunter could be a good two or so a game player, but he needs to get his defensive game up to scratch first.

[GVGjr]

May I ask which posters went to the match? Thought we set up really well today and there was a lot of thought given to our match ups and structure. Worked well for the first half but we fell into some old habits in the second half.


So much to like about tonight but the match was there for the taking and we failed to put our foot on their throat.

I went and I agree with your assessment. 10 minutes of poor football in the 3rd really cost us.

I'm also not seeing as many negatives as others have been pointing out. I know the win/loss column doesn't look good but I think we are a better side than 12 months back. Plenty to work on but with Roughead out plus we are yet to see some Griffen magic I think we have a lot of scope for further improvement. Just having Morris back really improved us.

[GVGjr]

I agree the match ups were right. I still think we need another tall in the back line. If Roughead played today, he could have at least matched Daniher for height. Poor Talia was about 10cm too short. We can't go into a game so short but I guess no one is putting up their hand.

Typically if you are giving away some height as Talia was you can exploit other aspects of the match-up but Talia comes up short in that as well. He is physical but lacks a bit on the athleticism and skills front. We need to give him more opportunities but I can see why he was being held back earlier in the season despite the many calls for the MC to play him regardless.

I agree that we don't have a lot of options. Roberts has a bit more height but like Talia he lacks skills and pace. I guess we could roll the dice with him but maybe Talia is the better option. I could be talked out of that though.

[josie]

Yes I went at its frustrating, we killed them with 40 more disposals and in contested possessions but our delivery into the forward line was pathetic with some woeful kicking. The only area other than the scoreboard that Essendon won was total marks. We just don't have tall players, and I mean over 195cm that take marks.

I was in cheer squad about 3/4 way back. This assessment by bornadog is spot on - we were oh so close to a win. I also think coaching was reasonable tonight. We just need a bit more composure and perhaps some growth hormones. Bombers seemed to have more than one loose man in defence in last qtr, or was it just our delivery was so bad they were able to pick off marks at will? Thought Stringer was pretty good tonight - a bit of run & flair and some of his work in the packs was good - could only pick it up with binoculars. Loved Higgins tonight too, and Wood & Picken. Boyd too. We are at least competitive in most matches this year, albeit frustrating there is still an upward trajectory of sorts. Put in Hrovat, Smith, Honeychurch not to mention Roughhead and Grant and we'll be alright I think in second half of year.

I'm trying to take more solace out of where I think we are heading than numbers of wins, however would be great to have a few more wins to gain momentum/membership/happy posters.....

[jeemak]

Yeah our forward entries count has been poor. Do you see from our list right now that Campbell can develop into that full forward option we need. When the delivery was there last week he gave us a presence up there. Who can we trade to get Jeremy Cameron? I'd imagine we need to give Griff up which I don't think we should do as he is an A grade player.

Sorry ED, but I don't think any of our issues are going to be solved by trades which land the best up and coming forward in the comp.

As you correctly point out, Cameron would command a Griffen, plus one early first round draft pick and a decent second at the least.

You hit the nail on our forward entries though. I don't think our forward structure is anywhere near it yet, but irrespective of that we need to learn to move the ball forward more decisively and with more precision. We also need to get the ball into open space more often through good foot skill.

My draft priorities are ball winners inside and outside that can kick, nothing more and nothing less at the moment, unless a good KP player is available early (not a reach, but genuinely the best player at his spot in the draft that happens to be a KP).

We need to tighten up our ball use first and foremost.

[Remi Moses]

We can talk about key forward ad nauseum, but it in this era if you're slow ,Poor use, or haphazard it comes back at a million miles an hour.

[Twodogs]

Sorry ED, but I don't think any of our issues are going to be solved by trades which land the best up and coming forward in the comp.

As you correctly point out, Cameron would command a Griffen, plus one early first round draft pick and a decent second at the least.

You hit the nail on our forward entries though. I don't think our forward structure is anywhere near it yet, but irrespective of that we need to learn to move the ball forward more decisively and with more precision. We also need to get the ball into open space more often through good foot skill.

My draft priorities are ball winners inside and outside that can kick, nothing more and nothing less at the moment, unless a good KP player is available early (not a reach, but genuinely the best player at his spot in the draft that happens to be a KP).

We need to tighten up our ball use first and foremost.


Actually it would be handy if they were left footers too.

[jeemak]

Actually it would be handy if they were left footers too.

It'd be nice, but anyone who has good foot skills left and or right would be welcome.

[chef]

I went and I agree with your assessment. 10 minutes of poor football in the 3rd really cost us.

I'm also not seeing as many negatives as others have been pointing out. I know the win/loss column doesn't look good but I think we are a better side than 12 months back. Plenty to work on but with Roughead out plus we are yet to see some Griffen magic I think we have a lot of scope for further improvement. Just having Morris back really improved us.

Yep, agree with you G. I didn't think we were that bad, we could have done a few things better/smarter and that will be assessed and we will learn from it.

We are on the right track.

[SonofScray]

I went and I agree with your assessment. 10 minutes of poor football in the 3rd really cost us.

I'm also not seeing as many negatives as others have been pointing out. I know the win/loss column doesn't look good but I think we are a better side than 12 months back. Plenty to work on but with Roughead out plus we are yet to see some Griffen magic I think we have a lot of scope for further improvement. Just having Morris back really improved us.
If we could inject 10mins of good football into the Nth Melbourne and Adelaide games, get one more player in a winning position on the ground last night the W-L column looks very different. I am frustrated and disappointed because we keep having these lapses, or failing to find a bit extra where needed to really cash in.

[Pickenitup]

I still believe If Griif had hit up His pass to Koby Stevens early in the 3rd qtr Koby would have had a easy set shot 30m out would have got us to a 20pt lead our confidence would have increased and the Bombers would have dropped even more.We really should have won this game .This type of win would have done wonders for Our Season and for the confidence in this group which looks like it has forgotten how to win.

[Go_Dogs]

Not too much I want to comment on as most of it has been said. Our concentration lapses are still killing us, as is the amount of work we need to do to generate a shot on goal. We looked a lot better in patches last night than we have at times, with more players willing to work ahead of the ball carrier to create options. At times we were really able to lock the game down too which helped.

Still a lot of work to do, and whilst I'm not at all happy with the result, we appear to have improved on last year.

[bornadog]

Typically if you are giving away some height as Talia was you can exploit other aspects of the match-up but Talia comes up short in that as well. He is physical but lacks a bit on the athleticism and skills front. We need to give him more opportunities but I can see why he was being held back earlier in the season despite the many calls for the MC to play him regardless.

I agree that we don't have a lot of options. Roberts has a bit more height but like Talia he lacks skills and pace. I guess we could roll the dice with him but maybe Talia is the better option. I could be talked out of that though.

At the three quarter time, Macca took Talia aside and was giving him some advice one on one along the boundary, away from the main group. These guys are still young and developing, and hopefully Talia can step up in the next few years.

[MrMahatma]

We keep hearing this week in/week out, but what changes? The buck stops with him. There has been no progression.

We persist with playing a loose man each week, and every week, the opposition's loose man does more damage - which IMO is due to the incompetence of our forward line. (eg. Jones and Williams have little football nous).

You don't think we've improved at all this year over last?

[bornadog]

You don't think we've improved at all this year over last?

Other than the West Coke game, we have been very competitive and capable of winning every game. 12 months ago, we were not even getting close.

[soupman]

Completely agree with AR's analysis, I think we just about nailed the matchups and side and it was clearly our execution going forward, not lack of or inferior personnel that killed us in the end.

I was very sceptical with the inclusions of Williams and JJ, but Tommygun was brought into the side clearly to try and drag Hooker and Fletcher out to the wings and stretch their defence, and they needed a defender to cover Picken's move to the midfield and a scrap as JJ has been, the remaining defenders have been even less inspiring and thus JJ was brought back in much earlier than he really should have been.

Last night I thought that is the most lacking in confidence and risk averse I've seen us. We looked noticeably tentative and aside from Higgins, Dahlhaus and Boyd didn't really have anyone willing to take risks and back themselves in. That play where Griffen stuffed up the kick to Stevens and then the resultant second chance highlighted it for me, Griffen of last year runs to 60 and kicks an awesome running goal. There was the space for it and he has the kick, he just didn't look to back himself in to finish an already very good play.

Unfortunately Murphy struggled to get in the game which is half of our quality run gone and JJ as one of the other key runners only ran into trouble. Thankfully Higgins pushed deep and really gave us something to use coming out of defence. I would have liked us to look to use the middle more and also run it up the ground. Our forwardline really struggled to be a target in the second half so we should have forced the issue and run it forward forcing both our forwards and their defenders to reposition themselves at short notice opening up gaps. As it was we would slowly get it to half forward and send a high ball into an alreadysettled and set up Bombers defence.

Even our all too familiar handball hot potato game would have done something. It worked a few times when Higgins ran forward and while it does mean a bit of stress as player get and give the ball in the 1 second before they are tackled it was actually really effective last night at releasing a runner and probably should have been used more against what is not a strong tackling side instead of trying to hit up average options with Essendon's plethora of rangy defenders manning them up.

[GVGjr]

At the three quarter time, Macca took Talia aside and was giving him some advice one on one along the boundary, away from the main group. These guys are still young and developing, and hopefully Talia can step up in the next few years.

But would you agree his form does give us all an insight about why he wasn't played earlier in the season? A lot of people were questioning the MC decision on the non selection of Talia but even allowing for his age he just hasn't shown much so far.
I'm not being critical of him but he is being played because we don't have a lot of other options at the moment.

I agree we need to stick with him but he does have to start getting some runs on the board.

[azabob]

You do realise Boyd shut Watson out of the game. Watson had to be moved forward in the 3rd quarter.

Without being there, from the TV It looked like Liberatore / Stevens went head to head with Watson.

[chef]

You don't think we've improved at all this year over last?

I agree, we couldn't do these sorts of efforts this time last year.

[always right]

Without being there, from the TV It looked like Liberatore / Stevens went head to head with Watson.

You're right.....I think we're just puzzled that you had Boyd as a non-contributor. Thought he continued his strong season form so far.

[azabob]

You're right.....I think we're just puzzled that you had Boyd as a non-contributor. Thought he continued his strong season form so far.

Happy to be wrong about Boyd being a non-contributor. I hate watching the footy on the TV. You only see 5% on what is actually going on.

[always right]

Happy to be wrong about Boyd being a non-contributor. I hate watching the footy on the TV. You only see 5% on what is actually going on.
Losing the captaincy may have been the best thing for Boyd. He is back to career best form.

[boydogs]

We were up to our eyeballs in it in 2009 during a prelim and ended up playing the same way we did in the last quarter as we did today.

I was thinking the same thing. We were dominating possession and inside 50's but couldn't spot up a target and were getting outmarked when bombing it in. Our kicking to advantage in general needs a lot of work. We only seem to have 2 gears, a 30m chip pass to a player in space or kicking long to nowhere in particular. Watch Pendlebury's inside 50 entries and you will see him go long to 1 on 1's to the forward's side of the contest.

Higgins, Murphy & Gia are good at this, Boyd, Griffen & Cooney are not. We need to do better than 50 inside 50's for 9 goals

[Hotdog60]

I think Stringer will develop into a strong mid fielder. There were some signs last night when he got up the ground that he has poise and some good evasive skills.

[EasternWest]

I'd even like us to ask Jack Riewoldt, "how does 750,00K sound?"

I know you're angry right now, so I'm going to pretend you didn't just say that.


I think Stringer will develop into a strong mid fielder. There were some signs last night when he got up the ground that he has poise and some good evasive skills.

He's got a ways to go, but he's clearly got a lot to work with. I remain bullish about what he's going to give us long term.

[azabob]

To hold Watson to under 20 disposals for the entire game and Stanton to only 13 really shows how well our midfield match up's worked, so much so if at the start of the game you said that by the end of the game both Watson and Stanton would spend long periods of the second half in the forward line you would take that each and every time.

Really disappointing that we could not take our opportunities in the last quarter.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

You don't think we've improved at all this year over last?

You've taken my post out of context. We haven't improved in terms of limiting our lapses from the first pre-season game this year. We keep talking about these lapses as why we're losing games, but nothing has actually changed - we are still coughing up 4-6 goals unanswered in games.

I don't think it's unrealistic to expect more. We aren't such a "young" side in the sense that it can be used as a valid excuse (eg. Adelaide were younger than us).

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I know you're angry right now, so I'm going to pretend you didn't just say that.


Why?

I know many supporters love to hate Jack, but reality is, he is a gun FF that Richmond have mismanaged in a number of ways both on and off the field.

In the last 4 years, in a woeful forward line, he has booted 58 goals, 65 goals, 62 goals and 78 goals. Who else on our list is capable of getting near this? Answer: nobody.

[Mantis]

Other than the West Coke game, we have been very competitive and capable of winning every game. 12 months ago, we were not even getting close.

Is this because we have improved or because of the draw? (We are yet to play any of the teams placed 1-7 yet)

[EasternWest]

I think Stringer will develop into a strong mid fielder. There were some signs last night when he got up the ground that he has poise and some good evasive skills.

Because he's a selfish self interested footballer that I have no desire to see in our colours. He plays entirely for himself and entirely on his terms.

I'm not averse to spending big dollars to lure a big name, but Jack Riewoldt isn't it.

I'm not as concerned about 1 guy kicking sixty to eighty goals a year - I'm concerned about our team kicking enough goals to win. I'd rather we spend big money and get an out and out gun, or find a damn way to get more goals put of a bigger spread of guys.

Riewoldt is just Fevola repackaged and sans the maturity issues, and Fevola never really made Carlton any better, like Riewoldt doesn't make Richmond any better.

FWIW I don't hate Riewoldt. I mean, I don't like him, I think he's a tool, but if he was the player to make us better then I'd wear it. He just isn't that good.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Because he's a selfish self interested footballer that I have no desire to see in our colours. He plays entirely for himself and entirely on his terms.

I'm not averse to spending big dollars to lure a big name, but Jack Riewoldt isn't it.

I'm not as concerned about 1 guy kicking sixty to eighty goals a year - I'm concerned about our team kicking enough goals to win. I'd rather we spend big money and get an out and out gun, or find a damn way to get more goals put of a bigger spread of guys.

Riewoldt is just Fevola repackaged and sans the maturity issues, and Fevola never really made Carlton any better, like Riewoldt doesn't make Richmond any better.

FWIW I don't hate Riewoldt. I mean, I don't like him, I think he's a tool, but if he was the player to make us better then I'd wear it. He just isn't that good.

EW I think your dislike for Riewoldt is overshadowing the truth/facts.

He ranked third in the competition for total goal assists in 2013 whilst kicking his 58 - how on earth is that selfish? The selfish tag he has been donned with is simply a myth.

Add that to the fact that he kicks 60-80 goals a year in an era with slow ball movement and flooding, I have absolutely no idea how you can say "he just isn't that good".

He is a bit Richo-like in that he's immature/over emotional at times on the ground, but even this is blown out of proportion.

[bornadog]

Why?

I know many supporters love to hate Jack, but reality is, he is a gun FF that Richmond have mismanaged in a number of ways both on and off the field.

In the last 4 years, in a woeful forward line, he has booted 58 goals, 65 goals, 62 goals and 78 goals. Who else on our list is capable of getting near this? Answer: nobody.

I agree and we should have drafted him instead of Everitt, Plus he is a cousin of Eade who should have had an insight into his capability.

[bornadog]

Is this because we have improved or because of the draw? (We are yet to play any of the teams placed 1-7 yet)

Both

[AndrewP6]

I agree and we should have drafted him instead of Everitt, Plus he is a cousin of Eade who should have had an insight into his capability.

I'm going to assume you're kidding. His father married Eade's cousin. Bit of a stretch to say he should've had an "insight"

[bornadog]

I'm going to assume you're kidding. His father married Eade's cousin. Bit of a stretch to say he should've had an "insight"

yes tongue in cheek

[AndrewP6]

yes tongue in cheek

Thought so. I've had a couple of quiet ones, so it's harder to tell! ;)

[Remi Moses]

No thanks to Riewoldt . He plays on his own terms for mine.
His effort depends on what mood his in.

[EasternWest]

EW I think your dislike for Riewoldt is overshadowing the truth/facts.

He ranked third in the competition for total goal assists in 2013 whilst kicking his 58 - how on earth is that selfish? The selfish tag he has been donned with is simply a myth.

Add that to the fact that he kicks 60-80 goals a year in an era with slow ball movement and flooding, I have absolutely no idea how you can say "he just isn't that good".

He is a bit Richo-like in that he's immature/over emotional at times on the ground, but even this is blown out of proportion.

I still don't want him, for the listed reasons.

Let me put it like this: I know his cousin gets a lot of hate on this board, but he is exactly the type of player we should be focussing on getting.

Jack kicks plenty of goals, but doesn't make his team any better. Nick leads his team and inspires his works tirelessly, regardless of what mood he's in.

I don't want a guy like Jack Riewoldt because he's about Jack Riewoldt. I want a guy like Nick Riewoldt because he actually makes his team better.

[Mofra]

I know many supporters love to hate Jack, but reality is, he is a gun FF that Richmond have mismanaged in a number of ways both on and off the field.

In the last 4 years, in a woeful forward line, he has booted 58 goals, 65 goals, 62 goals and 78 goals. Who else on our list is capable of getting near this? Answer: nobody.
I'm with you - some hate the way he carries on when he's opn the paddock, but I love it - shows passion, wears his heart on his sleeve, and would be our best forward by a long, long margin.

He's worth more than $750k though if Mitch Clark was worth $700k 3 years ago and some are now suggesting the $800k figure for Frawley is at the lower end of the scale!


Jack kicks plenty of goals, but doesn't make his team any better.
Um.... goals are good

[EasternWest]

Um.... goals are good

You know what I mean. Fevola kicked plenty too, and yet he never made those around him better, never made his team better.

I'm also well aware of the "pie in the sky" thought process of aiming for the perfect player - every side wants that guy. But if we're going to splash big dollars around, I'd rather not have them spent on a guy like Jack Riewoldt. I don't want Jack Riewoldt as our marquee player. I want Jeremy Cameron. I want Patton. I want 24 yo Nick Riewoldt.

Yeah I know, I'm dreaming.

[1eyedog]

We should set our sights on Patton. He is the most likely to slip through if Boyd gets up and going early. He's not out of contract until 2015 but we are 3-4 years away from top 4 anyway.

[1eyedog]

You know what I mean. Fevola kicked plenty too, and yet he never made those around him better, never made his team better.

I'm also well aware of the "pie in the sky" thought process of aiming for the perfect player - every side wants that guy. But if we're going to splash big dollars around, I'd rather not have them spent on a guy like Jack Riewoldt. I don't want Jack Riewoldt as our marquee player. I want Jeremy Cameron. I want Patton. I want 24 yo Nick Riewoldt.

Yeah I know, I'm dreaming.

Fevola won them plenty of games off his own boot to which I think we all witnessed first hand against us. I remember him kicking 6 in the second half against Lake to win the match for them, 2009 I think. His record and on-field achievements speak for themselves. I don't want his personality type at our club but I'd love his talent.

[EasternWest]

Fevola won them plenty of games off his own boot to which I think we all witnessed first hand against us. I remember him kicking 6 in the second half against Lake to win the match for them, 2009 I think. His record and on-field achievements speak for themselves. I don't want his personality type at our club but I'd love his talent.

Actually that's a fair point - he did win some games himself (and I was at that game too - didn't he tell our runner he was about to put on a show?).

But I still maintain, despite the talent (I'm not denying they can play), guys like these aren't the answer.

Obviously you guys disagree, so be it.

[Scorlibo]

Actually that's a fair point - he did win some games himself (and I was at that game too - didn't he tell our runner he was about to put on a show?).

But I still maintain, despite the talent (I'm not denying they can play), guys like these aren't the answer.

Obviously you guys disagree, so be it.

I agree with you. Getting Jack won't help us.

The obsession with getting a key forward is bordering on the insane. The fact is that the key forward is now a role player, not a star. How many key forward stars are there in the competition? Buddy, N. Riewoldt, maybe Cloke. Petrie is a very good player. Beyond that, key forwards are in the side as the get out option to pressure up the field and to then create even numbers at ground level.

Of course we don't want situations like in the last quarter when Lachie Hunter had to fly for a high ball, but Liam Jones can create those contests. Tom Williams can. We don't need to go out of our way, and pay someone handsomely, to get a role player.

[bornadog]

I agree with you. Getting Jack won't help us.

The obsession with getting a key forward is bordering on the insane. The fact is that the key forward is now a role player, not a star. How many key forward stars are there in the competition? Buddy, N. Riewoldt, maybe Cloke. Petrie is a very good player. Beyond that, key forwards are in the side as the get out option to pressure up the field and to then create even numbers at ground level.

Of course we don't want situations like in the last quarter when Lachie Hunter had to fly for a high ball, but Liam Jones can create those contests. Tom Williams can. We don't need to go out of our way, and pay someone handsomely, to get a role player.

Teams that win premierships always have a pretty good tall forward.

[1eyedog]

I agree with you. Getting Jack won't help us.

The obsession with getting a key forward is bordering on the insane. The fact is that the key forward is now a role player, not a star. How many key forward stars are there in the competition? Buddy, N. Riewoldt, maybe Cloke. Petrie is a very good player. Beyond that, key forwards are in the side as the get out option to pressure up the field and to then create even numbers at ground level.

Of course we don't want situations like in the last quarter when Lachie Hunter had to fly for a high ball, but Liam Jones can create those contests. Tom Williams can. We don't need to go out of our way, and pay someone handsomely, to get a role player.

Cameron will be a match winner when he gets better players around him. Tom Hawkins is close to an elite tall forward now. Taylor Walker... That's at least 3 off the top of my head to go with your 4. You could still add J. Brown there I suppose. None of those listed would be considered role players. They're still out there and they directly influence matches probably more than any other position. Maybe having one isn't critical for winning a premiership but gee one would make things a hell of a lot easier! I'd love to get an elite tall forward rather than a role player who plays key forward, easier said than done.

[Greystache]

Teams that win premierships always have a pretty good tall forward.

7 of the current top 10 goal kickers for the season are over 193cm. In 2013 9 of the top 10 goal kickers for the season were over 193cm. The premier in 2013 had 3 of the top 12 goal kickers in the league and all 3 were over 193cm.

[bulldogtragic]

Teams that win premierships always have a pretty good tall forward.

The obsession with trying to win a premiership without a tall forward is equally baffling to the point you make BAD. Historically we are far, far more likely to win a premiership with one than not, we've tried winning without (decent) KPF's more than not and wished for them. I'm not interested in proving history wrong. Take the game just gone against Essendon, or the final minutes in 97 and 09, a serviceable KPF would be the difference. When the pressure of losing big games gets in the players head they seem to instinctively kick long. For us, they're not kicking long to a player who can mark it. If Roberts, Wiiliams, Redpath & Cordy are our stocks, we need to look at a KPF. I think this year we need to go tall early, should be a KP forward like McCartin for example or even KP forward/ruck, it's way too early to definitely pick, but Peter Wright from Calder could be an option as an example of often talked about names.

The end of 2015 Cooney retires, Boyd likely and maybe Bob. We take that $800,000 and ruthlessly prey on GWS KPFs like vulchers.

Time wise if were making a serious move up in 2016 our top pick in 2014 is 30+ games we've robbed a KPF with 4-6 years experience and the kids on our list are moving into their prime. But I think it's critical to move on list cloggers this year on both lists, and look for any trades in which we win with moving out some. Interesting to see what happens with potential dater sons too.

[1eyedog]

Great key forwards are not all about goals, although the very best hit the scoreboard when their team needs them. Structure, straightening up ball movement, 2nd and 3rd talls being able to get off the leash and general confidence of moving the ball into F50 are almost as important.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

7 of the current top 10 goal kickers for the season are over 193cm. In 2013 9 of the top 10 goal kickers for the season were over 193cm. The premier in 2013 had 3 of the top 12 goal kickers in the league and all 3 were over 193cm.
The better option is probably to develop a better spread of goalkickers like Hawthorn has done. Apart from Crameri and Dahlhaus we have few others to complement both of these two.
We still lack a CHF and FF who can reliably kick goals. Our midfielders are also not regular goal kickers.
Is it time for Roberts and Redpath to be tried?

[Mofra]

I agree with you. Getting Jack won't help us.

The obsession with getting a key forward is bordering on the insane. The fact is that the key forward is now a role player, not a star. How many key forward stars are there in the competition? Buddy, N. Riewoldt, maybe Cloke. Petrie is a very good player. Beyond that, key forwards are in the side as the get out option to pressure up the field and to then create even numbers at ground level.
Wait... you say that key forwards are merely role players, then talk of the 'stars" of the competition?


If you believe our forwardline is functioning well, that's not an opinion I share; if anyone offered us the chance to improve the forwardline with a player that is a big upgrade on what we have now, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

[bulldogtragic]

Hawthorn had Schoenmakers, Hale, Gunston and Roughy as the top goal kickers in their spread this week. I think that's the point. A top 5 pick, trades and good late first round pick. We need to draft well and trade well to be more like a successfully operating Hawthorn forward line.

[LostDoggy]

Why can't we get a living away from the trophy cabinet allowance?

[Mantis]

Hawthorn had Schoenmakers, Hale, Gunston and Roughy as the top goal kickers in their spread this week. I think that's the point. A top 5 pick, trades and good late first round pick. We need to draft well and trade well to be more like a successfully operating Hawthorn forward line.

They are also the best field kicking team in the business... That helps.

[bulldogtragic]

They are also the best field kicking team in the business... That helps.

Yep. There's that too!

[bornadog]

Hawthorn had Schoenmakers, Hale, Gunston and Roughy as the top goal kickers in their spread this week. I think that's the point. A top 5 pick, trades and good late first round pick. We need to draft well and trade well to be more like a successfully operating Hawthorn forward line.

I agree, we don't need anymore midfielders in the draft this year. I am really disappointed that in last years draft we didn't pick at least one tall, and I mean someone over 195cm. Maybe they weren't around, but no excuses in this years draft. WE also need to add another ruckman.

[bulldogtragic]

I agree, we don't need anymore midfielders in the draft this year. I am really disappointed that in last years draft we didn't pick at least one tall, and I mean someone over 195cm. Maybe they weren't around, but no excuses in this years draft. WE also need to add another ruckman.

I would have moved on Redpath and taken a punt, even if it was Jayden Foster. A top 4 pick this year can be justified on a tall. If some or all of the top line talls play well in the champs expect calls on the talls to gain momentum, much like Boyd going from likely top 1 pick, and then the messiah which every club should've traded for. I'd like to trade into the first round somehow too, especially if we have to use a low 20's pick on a father son.

[1eyedog]

Wait... you say that key forwards are merely role players, then talk of the 'stars" of the competition?


If you believe our forwardline is functioning well, that's not an opinion I share; if anyone offered us the chance to improve the forwardline with a player that is a big upgrade on what we have now, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

x2. Jack would make a big difference to us in more ways than just goals.

[1eyedog]

I agree, we don't need anymore midfielders in the draft this year. I am really disappointed that in last years draft we didn't pick at least one tall, and I mean someone over 195cm. Maybe they weren't around, but no excuses in this years draft. WE also need to add another ruckman.

After Boyd the best was McCarthy who is a superb contested mark. He went at 14 to GWS. This was a big surprise both because he lasted till 14 (draft watchers had him around Pick 10) and because GWS took him. They have seriously loaded up on KPP and will develop the best and seek to trade the rest for good mids / running backs.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I agree, we don't need anymore midfielders in the draft this year. I am really disappointed that in last years draft we didn't pick at least one tall, and I mean someone over 195cm. Maybe they weren't around, but no excuses in this years draft. WE also need to add another ruckman.

Peter Wright would be perfect for this! Pity he will most likely go no 1

[Scorlibo]

Wait... you say that key forwards are merely role players, then talk of the 'stars" of the competition?

If you believe our forwardline is functioning well, that's not an opinion I share; if anyone offered us the chance to improve the forwardline with a player that is a big upgrade on what we have now, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

I mentioned the stars of the competition because there are so few who play as key forwards.

The best players in the competition are midfielders. They have the most influence on games, and have done for some time. The key forwards vs midfielders argument has been had umpteen times on this forum and the most common line to emerge is 'you don't win premierships without a good key forward'. I agree that in nine out of ten cases, premiership teams have good key forwards:

2013: Franklin, Roughead
2012: Goodes, Reid
2011: Hawkins, Podsiadly
2010: Cloke, Dawes
2009: Mooney, Hawkins
2008: Franklin, Roughead
2007: Mooney, Ablett
2006: Hansen, Lynch
2005: Hall, O'Loughlin
2004: Tredrea, Thurstans

If we're splitting these guys into elite (top 20 player of the comp), quality (top 100) and good role players:

Elite - Franklin (2013, 2008), Roughead (2013), Goodes (2012), Hall (2005), Tredrea (2004) for a total of 6/20.
Quality - Hawkins (2011 - purely for his grand final), Podsiadly (2011), Cloke (2010), Mooney (2009, 2007), Roughead (2008), Lynch (2006), O'Loughlin (2005) for a total of 8/20.
Playing a role - Reid (2012), Dawes (2010), Hawkins (2009), Ablett (2007), Hansen (2006), Thurstans (2004) for a total of 6/20.

Compare this to key defenders:

2013: Lake, Gibson
2012: Richards, Grundy
2011: Taylor, Scarlett
2010: Reid, Brown
2009: Taylor, Scarlett
2008: Croad, Gilham
2007: Scarlett, Egan
2006: Glass, Hunter
2005: Barry, Bolton
2004: Cornes, Wakelin

Elite - Richards (2012), Scarlett (2009, 2007), Cornes (2004) for a total of 4/20.
Quality - Lake (2013), Gibson (2013), Grundy (2012), Taylor (2011, 2009), Scarlett (2011), Reid (2010), Croad (2008), Egan (2007), Glass (2006), Barry (2005), Bolton (2005), Wakelin (2004) for a total of 13/20.
Playing a Role - Brown (2010), Gilham (2008), Hunter (2006) for a total of 3/20.

Best three midfielders:

2013: Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis.
2012: Kennedy, Jack, Hannebery.
2011: Selwood, Bartel, Corey.
2010: Swan, Pendlebury, Ball.
2009: Selwood, Ablett, Corey.
2008: Mitchell, Hodge, Sewell.
2007: Ablett, Bartel, Corey.
2006: Cousins, Judd, Kerr.
2005: Bolton, Kirk, Goodes.
2004: Carr, K.Cornes, S.Burgoyne.

Elite - Mitchell (2013, 2008), Hodge (2013, 2008), Kennedy (2012), Jack (2012), Selwood (2011, 2009), Swan (2010), Pendlebury (2010), Ablett (2009, 2007), Corey (2009), Bartel (2007), Cousins (2006), Judd (2006), Kerr (2006) for a total of 17/30.
Quality - Lewis (2013), Hannebery (2012), Bartel (2011), Corey (2011, 2007), Sewell (2008), Bolton (2005), Kirk (2005), Goodes (2005), Carr (2004), Burgoyne (2004) for a total of 11/30.
Playing a Role - Ball (2010), Cornes (2004) for a total of 2/30.

You might disagree with a few of my placings but I think it demonstrates that you need good quality players everywhere on the ground.

Our forward line might not be functional but does that really mean we reduce the conversation to 'we just need a quality key forward - go trade for Patton or Riewoldt' again? We have a guy named Liam Jones who has played a couple of ripping games this year and a couple of stinkers but has shown enough to suggest that he can at least be a role player and produce the same output as any of the guys I listed in the role playing category for premiership sides. As for the other position, and as for the remainder of the forward line, I'm willing to be patient for the remainder of the season, see some players roll through there and see how the chemistry develops. We're a developing side and it's only logical that we have a developing forward line.

To summarise my frustration: you can't equate having a dysfunctional forward line with not having an elite key forward.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Nobody is saying the only thing you need is a KF. Of course you need options all over the ground, but it's pretty obvious our biggest weakness has been our complete lack of goal scoring options.

Jones might be able to be a role player in the mold of a Thurstans, Reid or Hansen - might - but one thing for certain is that unless we address this issue, we simply will not contend with the current cattle of forward options, no matter how great we think our midfield is/could be.

In 2009 (and really, 06-09) we had two of the best small-medium forwards the game has arguably ever seen in Johnson and Aker (40+ goals each wasn't it?) plus the likes of Murphy, Hahn, Robbins etc. who were all very capable players in their own right. We still didn't win it, or even make a Grand Final. Fact: we are not going to find two players equal or better than Johnson and Akermanis anytime soon.

We need a quality key forward (or two - depending how you rate Jones, Cordy, Campbell, Williams) for many, many reasons. One of them is yes, the fact that they score goals - goals are good, as Mofra said. They also take the pressure and focus off players like Crameri and Stringer (all other mediums included too).

If there was a chance we could land Jack Riewoldt (or an equivalent) and said "nah, he's not Australian of the year material" I would throw up.

Crameri, Dahlhaus, Hunter and possibly Stringer are a decent start moving forward but we're kidding ourselves if we think we can rely on Jones/Campbell/Williams/Cordy.

[josie]

The obsession with trying to win a premiership without a tall forward is equally baffling to the point you make BAD. Historically we are far, far more likely to win a premiership with one than not, we've tried winning without (decent) KPF's more than not and wished for them. I'm not interested in proving history wrong. Take the game just gone against Essendon, or the final minutes in 97 and 09, a serviceable KPF would be the difference. When the pressure of losing big games gets in the players head they seem to instinctively kick long. For us, they're not kicking long to a player who can mark it. If Roberts, Wiiliams, Redpath & Cordy are our stocks, we need to look at a KPF. I think this year we need to go tall early, should be a KP forward like McCartin for example or even KP forward/ruck, it's way too early to definitely pick, but Peter Wright from Calder could be an option as an example of often talked about names.


The end of 2015 Cooney retires, Boyd likely and maybe Bob. We take that $800,000 and ruthlessly prey on GWS KPFs like vulchers.

Time wise if were making a serious move up in 2016 our top pick in 2014 is 30+ games we've robbed a KPF with 4-6 years experience and the kids on our list are moving into their prime. But I think it's critical to move on list cloggers this year on both lists, and look for any trades in which we win with moving out some. Interesting to see what happens with potential dater sons too.

I agree with this ^^^ even though I do not know about the draft hopefuls you speak of (would love ot hear/see more).

I like the idea of buying in a gun KPF unless we are able to land a top draft pick KPF as it is seems so hit & miss with talls compared to midfielders.

I also think with loss of Murphy and Cooney in a few years, and even now, we could do with a bit more outside run and dash and skill. Hopefully some of the young ones we've got will fill these big shoes in a few years time. Let alone losing Morris in backline too.

I suppose every team is always trying to perfect their list asap (?except the yesteryear Dees?) and have a medium/long star replacement program.

[bulldogtragic]

I agree with this ^^^ even though I do not know about the draft hopefuls you speak of (would love ot hear/see more).

I like the idea of buying in a gun KPF unless we are able to land a top draft pick KPF as it is seems so hit & miss with talls compared to midfielders.

I also think with loss of Murphy and Cooney in a few years, and even now, we could do with a bit more outside run and dash and skill. Hopefully some of the young ones we've got will fill these big shoes in a few years time. Let alone losing Morris in backline too.

I suppose every team is always trying to perfect their list asap (?except the yesteryear Dees?) and have a medium/long star replacement program.

I see Hrovat or Dahl as taking over from current Cooney (not the brownlow version) for burst speed and decent foot skills. Higgins form at half back and good foot skills is as close to Bob as we can probably hope for. The salaries from these two & Boyd is significant, so let's call every tall forward and get into their thinking for trade period after next.

Defence, I like JJ and Higgins off the flanks if they stay fit for our next tilt. Roughy and Talia will hopefully both step up yet again. I'm hopefully for Zaine Cordy as a third tall defender with rebound potential in the next few years. Looking at GWS, Sydney, Melbourne & Hawthorn we need another tall defender which may or may not be Williams or anyone else tall now or traded in. Depth for the flanks is Fuller and Darley who we don't know enough about yet.

Our midfield looks solid too, but we need to fast track good kickers in Bont, Hrovat etc over some dodgy kickers like Boyd and Stevens.

On that, the plan as I set out sets out drafting and trading for KPFs to add to Jones & Campbell, with then Stew & Grant and then Honey and Hunter with others. Just need to address our ruckman issues.

[jeemak]

We definitely need to draft a midfielder this year, as well as look at talls.

We are going to have all of Griffen, Cooney and Boyd retire over the next four or so years. We need to replace them through the draft now.