Form guide

[MrMahatma]

A fair bit of doom and gloom around after last night's loss, but I've gotta say I think we're on the right track.

Compared to last year we're in matches up to our eyeballs. We have individuals winning positions. We're capable of scoring more. We're defending better.

I'd say that apart from round 1, we've been in a position to win all of our games and, as the scores would attest on the past 2, have been just a bit of polish away from winning a few more.

We have gaps on our list, we have some injuries to some promising players, and we have a few guys who are playing for their careers. We aren't the finished product but surely everyone can see we're on an upwards trajectory?

[soupman]

Absolutely.

Not only are we in games, the frustration this year is that we aren't winning games when we are either the better side (last night), or we just don't take our chances at crucial moments (North game etc.). Expectations have been raised because we are a better and more competitive side. We clearly have the ability to be doing better, and I think like last year it's going to click around round 14ish and go up the next gear.

People forget that this time last year we were regularly getting thrashed.

[GVGjr]

We have gaps on our list, we have some injuries to some promising players, and we have a few guys who are playing for their careers. We aren't the finished product but surely everyone can see we're on an upwards trajectory?

Don't get me wrong, I'm frustrated with the losses but I can certainly see an improvement on 12 months back.

Obviously we still have some gaps on our list: an emerging tall defender, a skillful and pacy midfielder plus a key forward who can spend some time in the ruck would all benefit our side but we do have some emerging players.

This improvement must also come in the win/loss column soon but I don't think we are playing bad football.

[chef]

People forget that this time last year we were regularly getting thrashed.

Yep.

[Maddog37]

Much happier last night than the last two weeks. I think our back line is looking strong and settled with Morris, wood, Picken, Murphy and Higgins forming the nucleus at present. Morris makes a massive difference and Ruff will be the icing.

Seeing Dal force the opposition to tag him was a massive step forward. If Dal can become a full time onballer then the opposition needs to make choices on who to tag. An in form Griff would be handy too.

Forwards are getting crap service admittedly but they are not doing enough to at least break even. It feels to me that Macca is not settled on the forward set up yet. Crameri, Stringer, Hunter, Gia, Jones, Williams, Campbell are Dickson are all hot and cold with our forward line only really looking good when Dal is down there. I wonder if Cooney could be used forward.

I hope that once we can actually decide(or form dictates) who plays there we will see some continuity and as with the back line players like Wood etc, we will see some improvement.

I still feel Macca is very passive in the box and leaves it to the players to adapt on the run. Last night we didn't think on our feet quick enough and even though I am content he didn't get a game last night, I think Gia would have helped massively with the Fletcher set up late in the game.

[LostDoggy]

I look at the Saints and agree. We're doing alright. Stringer last night, in my view, paid back a bit of the faith in him and Wood has just had an absolutely fantastic season.

A few Essendon supporters around me were saying things like ‘Who's that young bastard in the 11?’ Or ‘That little Dahlhaus guy is a gun’ and there was general respect shown to how far we'd come.

[F'scary]

Agree.

But there is always the ever present danger of going backwards. I think there needs to be list turnover at the end of this season of an order of magnitude similar to the end of 2012.

The Ayce, Gia, Goodes, Howard, Prudden, Pearce. That is an easy 6.

I know there are a couple there about whom some will say "only been there a couple of years, are young and had bad luck with injuries," but we have to be a bit ruthless if we are going to go to the top.

On the cusp for various reasons: Young (form lapses bring him into the sights), Stevens (disposal skills), Jong (per Stevens), Roberts (tick, tick, tick goes the clock), Campbell (ditto Young), Fuller (was always speculative and his start in VFL has not been eye catching), Dickson (similar to Young).

[Remi Moses]

It's all very well to make wholesale list changes, but an issue is contracts.
Pretty certain Prudden signed a new one last year, and to be honest he hasn't been able to get on the park.
Like to see Roberts get a gig at some stage.

[F'scary]

don't disagree. And I had forgotten the contracts. Don't tell me...Ayce has 5 years to go.

[azabob]

don't disagree. And I had forgotten the contracts. Don't tell me...Ayce has 5 years to go.

Ayce has 6 years to go ;)

[bulldogtragic]

What's frustrating is when as a mere member, you aren't proven wrong.

At the end of last year I (and others) said I hope we haven't overestimated the list. Howard in a particular was a shock, Gia one too many possibly, Redpath & Greenwood look so far off consistent VFL let alone AFL. Ayce was always getting another year, Pearce was touch and go. I'd like to see Prudden force his way into the side too. Goodes elevation was, well, I don't get it with Higgins being sent back and getting Darley & Fuller.

If there's no cull this year them I absolutely don't understand the master plan. And if we find a want to trade in some quality from another team, logic dictates that some decisions might have to be made on players of ours who have currency.

[MrMahatma]

What's frustrating is when as a mere member, you aren't proven wrong.

At the end of last year I (and others) said I hope we haven't overestimated the list. Howard in a particular was a shock, Gia one too many possibly, Redpath & Greenwood look so far off consistent VFL let alone AFL. Ayce was always getting another year, Pearce was touch and go. I'd like to see Prudden force his way into the side too. Goodes elevation was, well, I don't get it with Higgins being sent back and getting Darley & Fuller.

If there's no cull this year them I absolutely don't understand the master plan. And if we find a want to trade in some quality from another team, logic dictates that some decisions might have to be made on players of ours who have currency.

There's no point making 10 changes though if the draft or available trade talent isn't any better than what you've already got?

Surely good list management is about having a steady stream of talent coming onto the list and into the 22, rather than boom/bust years where we have massive changes.

[bulldogtragic]

There's no point making 10 changes though if the draft or available trade talent isn't any better than what you've already got?

Surely good list management is about having a steady stream of talent coming onto the list and into the 22, rather than boom/bust years where we have massive changes.

No one is saying 10 changes to the primary list. Goodes could have stayed on the Rookie List with Greenwood and Redpath heading back to the local leagues. Two picks in the rookie draft is hardly irresponsible list management. Having Goodes as a back up flanker or competing with Jong in the preseason is hardly irresponsible if Darley & Fuller are going to be recruited with Higgo moving back too.

From there I suggested Gia may have gone 1 too long and Howie a mistake. Assume I meant both. We got Honeychurch at pick 60, where do you think the draft ended last year? Say GWS didn't take the Darley pick and we had a pick in the low 70's, is there no kid that could possibly have got through? No state league KPP for depth, no kid worth a punt? Then for the other pick, we should have picked up a ruckman, on either list and you can move the pieces around.

I don't see the above as irresponsible list management. We missed an opportunity to stagger our movements especially with Gia, Bob, Morris and Boyd all getting on. Blind Freddie knew what Howard was going to give this year, and unfortunately true to form his been average at Footscray. The gamble was try for another Honeychurch type kid a few picks later than Honeychurch went, or a state KPP or a ruckman. I've seen Darcy Fort a few times this year and I think I was more excited by him than the last few years of Howard. Sorry, but same for Redpath too. I stood behind him for a full quarter a few weeks back and wondered what I couldn't see. You can't have rookie super stories like Boyd, Morris, Harbrow or Dahl with no selections.

Chris Grant and James Hird went circa pick 100. I can't recall if they were super drafts. But my question is would any other AFL team pick them up and turn our charcoal into diamonds. If the answer is no, then why would we clog our lists with them?

[F'scary]

I am saying 6 to perhaps up to 10 changes.

I feel like we need to roll the dice a bit more with the list.

[westdog54]

No one is saying 10 changes to the primary list. Goodes could have stayed on the Rookie List with Greenwood and Redpath heading back to the local leagues. Two picks in the rookie draft is hardly irresponsible list management. Having Goodes as a back up flanker or competing with Jong in the preseason is hardly irresponsible if Darley & Fuller are going to be recruited with Higgo moving back too.

From there I suggested Gia may have gone 1 too long and Howie a mistake. Assume I meant both. We got Honeychurch at pick 60, where do you think the draft ended last year? Say GWS didn't take the Darley pick and we had a pick in the low 70's, is there no kid that could possibly have got through? No state league KPP for depth, no kid worth a punt? Then for the other pick, we should have picked up a ruckman, on either list and you can move the pieces around.

I don't see the above as irresponsible list management. We missed an opportunity to stagger our movements especially with Gia, Bob, Morris and Boyd all getting on. Blind Freddie knew what Howard was going to give this year, and unfortunately true to form his been average at Footscray. The gamble was try for another Honeychurch type kid a few picks later than Honeychurch went, or a state KPP or a ruckman. I've seen Darcy Fort a few times this year and I think I was more excited by him than the last few years of Howard. Sorry, but same for Redpath too. I stood behind him for a full quarter a few weeks back and wondered what I couldn't see. You can't have rookie super stories like Boyd, Morris, Harbrow or Dahl with no selections.

Chris Grant and James Hird went circa pick 100. I can't recall if they were super drafts. But my question is would any other AFL team pick them up and turn our charcoal into diamonds. If the answer is no, then why would we clog our lists with them?

BT, you had me convinced until the last paragraph. I'm sick of people comparing Grant's selection to modern day drafting. In the first place, Zoning still existed and the draft wad not what it is now. Secondly, Grant was 16 when he was drafted. 16. In a modern day draft he wouldn't have even been eligible. You seriously think that Chris Grant would have been picked in the 100's as a 17-18yo in the modern system?

Yes, there are some hidden gems late in the draft but let's at least use relevant examples.

[Scorlibo]

The Ayce, Gia, Goodes, Howard, Prudden, Pearce.

It would be a joke to delist Prudden. The guy can seriously play, he just needs continuity. One of those rare midfielders who seems to have great vision and disposal coupled with the ability to win the ball. The rest of those you've named would certainly have to make improvement in the remainder of the year to keep their place on the list. Ayce might get another contract purely because he will need to play a ruck-forward role if Minson goes down.

[GVGjr]

What's frustrating is when as a mere member, you aren't proven wrong.

At the end of last year I (and others) said I hope we haven't overestimated the list. Howard in a particular was a shock, Gia one too many possibly, Redpath & Greenwood look so far off consistent VFL let alone AFL. Ayce was always getting another year, Pearce was touch and go. I'd like to see Prudden force his way into the side too. Goodes elevation was, well, I don't get it with Higgins being sent back and getting Darley & Fuller.

If there's no cull this year them I absolutely don't understand the master plan. And if we find a want to trade in some quality from another team, logic dictates that some decisions might have to be made on players of ours who have currency.

I think we missed a great list management opportunity by just maintaining our rookie listed players. I agree that Redpath and Greenwood aren't close enough to the required standard.

The rest of the players like Goodes, Darley and Fuller need the full season before we can really judge. We have all gone over why Gia has been maintained over the last 3 weeks and while opinions differ it's not yet worth a weekly debate over it. There was a very detailed plan put in place and I think we should review it by the mid way point of the season.

[Mantis]

People forget that this time last year we were regularly getting thrashed.

I mentioned in another thread that we have had a pretty soft draw having played just one team in the eight so far (North who are 8th)... Our results show we are more competitive, but I think having not played a 'form' team so far has been contributing factor in this.

[MrMahatma]

I mentioned in another thread that we have had a pretty soft draw having played just one team in the eight so far (North who are 8th)... Our results show we are more competitive, but I think having not played a 'form' team so far has been contributing factor in this.

Maybe.

First 7 rounds:

Last year - The average score difference across that region was -32. This year it's -16. Half.
Last year - Average score against = 110, This year it's 97.
Last year - Average score for = 78, this year = 81.

Interesting that it's our defence that has improved most. Our attack is only marginally better. No doubt that trend would appear in most teams across the league though.

[F'scary]

It would be a joke to delist Prudden. The guy can seriously play, he just needs continuity. One of those rare midfielders who seems to have great vision and disposal coupled with the ability to win the ball.

Ok. He gets to stay.

[Remi Moses]

Agree with GV, we kept the rookies way to long .

[Hot_Doggies]

I mentioned in another thread that we have had a pretty soft draw having played just one team in the eight so far (North who are 8th)... Our results show we are more competitive, but I think having not played a 'form' team so far has been contributing factor in this.

You are correct in saying we haven't played many top 8 sides, but I don't think the draw has been easy.

WCE first up at home- new coach, bad year last year, hot day. Prefer to have played them week 6.

North- got flogged week one and were all over back page for the week.

Blues-same as north but more

Bombers- must win game for both sides

[Mofra]

It would be a joke to delist Prudden. The guy can seriously play, he just needs continuity. One of those rare midfielders who seems to have great vision and disposal coupled with the ability to win the ball.
I think it's an "out of sight, out of mind" issue with Prudden. Many supporters haven't seen him play so assume he's struggling, when to be honest the only game I saw him play he basically out-Hrovatted Hrovat, looked like a pure midfielder. He can win his own ball so I assume B-Mac is a fan

[SlimPickens]

I think it's an "out of sight, out of mind" issue with Prudden. Many supporters haven't seen him play so assume he's struggling, when to be honest the only game I saw him play he basically out-Hrovatted Hrovat, looked like a pure midfielder. He can win his own ball so I assume B-Mac is a fan

Prudden is a jet, I've seen him play ever game he has been involved in this year and he has performed strongly. Not to mention he put on 4-6kgs over the preseason. One thing you look at in match simulations in preseason or the early games was if Libba or Boyd weren't getting the ball, Prudden was. His positioning around the contest and his ability to get his own ball is very good. Was extremely disappointed when he got injured and look forward to having him back playing soon.

[Mantis]

You are correct in saying we haven't played many top 8 sides, but I don't think the draw has been easy.

WCE first up at home- new coach, bad year last year, hot day. Prefer to have played them week 6.

North- got flogged week one and were all over back page for the week.

Blues-same as north but more

Bombers- must win game for both sides

When you are 2-5 and 15th on the ladder no games are easy, case in point being this weeks match against Melbourne.. Just making the point that we are yet to play in-form teams such as Haw, Geel, Port, Coll, etc..

[1eyedog]

A fair bit of doom and gloom around after last night's loss, but I've gotta say I think we're on the right track.

Compared to last year we're in matches up to our eyeballs. We have individuals winning positions. We're capable of scoring more. We're defending better.

I'd say that apart from round 1, we've been in a position to win all of our games and, as the scores would attest on the past 2, have been just a bit of polish away from winning a few more.

We have gaps on our list, we have some injuries to some promising players, and we have a few guys who are playing for their careers. We aren't the finished product but surely everyone can see we're on an upwards trajectory?

We have lost games we should have won this season and that's a problem. Why have we gone backwards on the last 6 rounds of season 2013? Sure we haven't been thrashed but we haven't played a top 6 side yet. The other issue I have is that we have had to play ugly / boring football to stay in touch. We are like St. Kilda under Ross Lyon without the skill level or talent.

It looks like we a a loooong-term project.

[Sedat]

We have lost games we should have won this season and that's a problem. Why have we gone backwards on the last 6 rounds of season 2013? Sure we haven't been thrashed but we haven't played a top 6 side yet. The other issue I have is that we have had to play ugly / boring football to stay in touch. We are like St. Kilda under Ross Lyon without the skill level or talent.

It looks like we a a loooong-term project.
Sometimes the longest of long-term projects bear no fruit at all. Norf have been rebuilding for 6 years and have not won a final. Richmond likewise. Carlton have a war-chest of first-round picks and look like they are ready for another rebuild after the current one didn't even get them to a single PF.

The 'rebuild from the ground up' approach is sound on paper but I don't want the club to completely ignore results as well. Testing our methods in the heat of battle is the ultimate measurement of progress, so we should be expecting results to continue in an upward direction. it shouldn't be panic stations but it is still ok to be unhappy with the lack of results this season to date.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I think it's an "out of sight, out of mind" issue with Prudden. Many supporters haven't seen him play so assume he's struggling, when to be honest the only game I saw him play he basically out-Hrovatted Hrovat, looked like a pure midfielder. He can win his own ball so I assume B-Mac is a fan

Prudden was an outstanding captain at Assumption College and highly recommended by its Coach, Scott Wynd, that saw him LAND at the WB.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

When you are 2-5 and 15th on the ladder no games are easy, case in point being this weeks match against Melbourne.. Just making the point that we are yet to play in-form teams such as Haw, Geel, Port, Coll, etc..

I would think that we will struggle against the 4 in-form teams as mentioned. This theory is that we have been unable to beat middle of the road clubs in North Carlton Adelaide and Essendon. Our lack of quality forwards is still a major concern with little prospect of it improving given our current list. Roughead, Grant and Smith returning at some stage will assist as will a fit Griffen who is still to regain his form of last year. We have had a lift from the good form of both Wood and Higgins whilst Boyd and Picken have also enjoyed a good year. I like the look of Honeychurch who has great determination in the Smith mould and hope to also see Hrovat and Roberts come into the team before much longer.

[1eyedog]

Sometimes the longest of long-term projects bear no fruit at all. Norf have been rebuilding for 6 years and have not won a final. Richmond likewise. Carlton have a war-chest of first-round picks and look like they are ready for another rebuild after the current one didn't even get them to a single PF.

The 'rebuild from the ground up' approach is sound on paper but I don't want the club to completely ignore results as well. Testing our methods in the heat of battle is the ultimate measurement of progress, so we should be expecting results to continue in an upward direction. it shouldn't be panic stations but it is still ok to be unhappy with the lack of results this season to date.

This game plan seems to be moving along in increments and I'm assuming we are putting the various components together piece by piece but at this stage the component we are piecing together (whatever that is), seems to be stifling any type of attacking football (as opposed to the end of last season). You use good examples of failed rebuilds and this is mildly troubling but not so troubling as the fact that supporters are shying away from attending matches because of the way we are playing. I don't blame them to be honest we are playing very frustrating football.

My knowledge of developing game plans is extremely limited so this post extends about as far as your common rant but there has to be a way of playing a more convincing type of football while still being able to develop core prerequisites of the game plan (contested ball, pressure, spreading, controlling tempo, developing a strong shape in the back half). I understand that it is not just our game plan that is being taught but also learning how to cope with how other teams play as well but our club more than any other needs to be able to sell a product to sponsors and members and the AFL in order to be viable. Am I expecting too much after 2 1/2 years both in terms of the development of the game plan and the capabilities of our young players? Probably...

I'm frustrated but still positive but that will dissolve if we start to get really belted up by the better clubs over the coming rounds because if this happens I can't see how we can improve out of sight next season and we will by that time be 3 1/2 years in.

[azabob]

We are seeing the otherside to the rebuild.

When Eade took over he went straight out attacking exciting football. McCartney is going the complete opposite.

[Ozza]

Sometimes the longest of long-term projects bear no fruit at all. Norf have been rebuilding for 6 years and have not won a final. Richmond likewise. Carlton have a war-chest of first-round picks and look like they are ready for another rebuild after the current one didn't even get them to a single PF.
The 'rebuild from the ground up' approach is sound on paper but I don't want the club to completely ignore results as well. Testing our methods in the heat of battle is the ultimate measurement of progress, so we should be expecting results to continue in an upward direction. it shouldn't be panic stations but it is still ok to be unhappy with the lack of results this season to date.

Interesting in the context of the 'style of play' discussion. All three examples' (North, Richmond and Carlton) major critique, is that they weren't able to defend well enough. They could/can score - but have been too easy to score against.

Arguably, the better rebuilds have been from teams that have built their defensive game first - and then as they progressed and improved everywhere, began to score on the back of that. Admittedly, some of those teams have had a couple of star forwards who made them more potent - whereas our forwardline is a work in progress that we are developing.

[Mofra]

Arguably, the better rebuilds have been from teams that have built their defensive game first - and then as they progressed and improved everywhere, began to score on the back of that. Admittedly, some of those teams have had a couple of star forwards who made them more potent - whereas our forwardline is a work in progress that we are developing.
Interesting from that perspective, especially considering Eade basically built a back 6 before anything else and spent a whole season letting them just play (and often, getting belted).

We're ignoring the forward & defense mantra by building from "the inside out", although it does raise the question of how this will translate into list management given it's far easier to find quality mids than it is to find quality talls.

[bornadog]

Going through the stats which Macca talked about after his press conference he said he is happy with all the stats accept the scores of course.

I had a quick look at the season so far and we are top 5 in almost all the stats that matter (except scoring), like contested poss., stoppages, centre clearances (top 2), etc. However, the worrying ones are rebound 50's, contested marks and marks in general where we sit near the bottom and inside 50.

Against Eseendon we smashed them with disposals, cont.poss, but the differential in marks was hugely in their favour.

The forward line needs to gel together, but I still believe its the delivery that is the problem

[Sedat]

Interesting in the context of the 'style of play' discussion. All three examples' (North, Richmond and Carlton) major critique, is that they weren't able to defend well enough. They could/can score - but have been too easy to score against.

Arguably, the better rebuilds have been from teams that have built their defensive game first - and then as they progressed and improved everywhere, began to score on the back of that. Admittedly, some of those teams have had a couple of star forwards who made them more potent - whereas our forwardline is a work in progress that we are developing.
Good observations. St Kilda under Lyon certainly went down that path as did Hawthorn under Clarko. But it didn't take them longer than 3 years to see major progress (ie: finals victories, top 4 finishes and in Hawthorn's case a premiership ahead of schedule).

I'm mindful that we need to be patient with the development of our list and gameplan but I'm also concerned that we aren't developing both at a quicker rate. Finals should really be the goal in 2015 (chronic injuries permitting) and the goal after that should be a sustained run of finals footy as per Geelong, Hawthorn and Collingwood. I suspect that BMac would have this as a goal for the team behind closed doors and would probably be just as frustrated with the last 3 weeks as the fans appear to be.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Interesting in the context of the 'style of play' discussion. All three examples' (North, Richmond and Carlton) major critique, is that they weren't able to defend well enough. They could/can score - but have been too easy to score against.

Arguably, the better rebuilds have been from teams that have built their defensive game first - and then as they progressed and improved everywhere, began to score on the back of that. Admittedly, some of those teams have had a couple of star forwards who made them more potent - whereas our forwardline is a work in progress that we are developing.

Following Hawthorns progress we should essentially be pushing for the top 8 this year but just falling short. And i would say this is what a lot of us expected.

-Hawthorn lost touch with the top 8 in 2003 (they also did in 02 but didnt commence the rebuild until after the 03 season). Comparatively we lost touch in 2011.

-They then hit rock bottom in 2004 (2012 for us)
-They struggled again in 2005 (our 2013)
-They then climbed the ladder in 2006 to 11th (this year for us)
-They then made finals in 2007 (our 2015)
-They won the flag in 2008 (our 2016) which most viewed as an over achievement

We're not fairing too badly but we need to improve as the season progresses and be expecting to make finals next year

[bornadog]

Good observations. St Kilda under Lyon certainly went down that path as did Hawthorn under Clarko. But it didn't take them longer than 3 years to see major progress (ie: finals victories, top 4 finishes and in Hawthorn's case a premiership ahead of schedule).

I'm mindful that we need to be patient with the development of our list and gameplan but I'm also concerned that we aren't developing both at a quicker rate. Finals should really be the goal in 2015 (chronic injuries permitting) and the goal after that should be a sustained run of finals footy as per Geelong, Hawthorn and Collingwood. I suspect that BMac would have this as a goal for the team behind closed doors and would probably be just as frustrated with the last 3 weeks as the fans appear to be.

Looking at Macca's press conferences, he looks like he is getting very impatient and frustrated by what the players are doing out there. In particular he mentioned we shouldn't have little blokes flying for marks in the forward line (insert Hunter), when the big blokes should have positioned themselves in the right spot.

He also said you can be assured the blokes playing out there won't be the same 22 taking us forward.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Going through the stats which Macca talked about after his press conference he said he is happy with all the stats accept the scores of course.

I had a quick look at the season so far and we are top 5 in almost all the stats that matter (except scoring), like contested poss., stoppages, centre clearances (top 2), etc. However, the worrying ones are rebound 50's, contested marks and marks in general where we sit near the bottom and inside 50.

Against Eseendon we smashed them with disposals, cont.poss, but the differential in marks was hugely in their favour.

The forward line needs to gel together, but I still believe its the delivery that is the problem

Stats count for little when you have so many players down on form as we did against Essendon. I counted at least seven, including Jones, Dickson, Crameri, Williams, Talia, JJ and Stevens that were below par, which simply means that the others have to pick up the slack. We were in our losses to North, Carlton, Adelaide and Essendon for periods of each of these games but lacked the intensity to put 4 quarters together. This is what really frustrates our supporter base.

[westdog54]

Following Hawthorns progress we should essentially be pushing for the top 8 this year but just falling short. And i would say this is what a lot of us expected.

-Hawthorn lost touch with the top 8 in 2003 (they also did in 02 but didnt commence the rebuild until after the 03 season). Comparatively we lost touch in 2011.

-They then hit rock bottom in 2004 (2012 for us)
-They struggled again in 2005 (our 2013)
-They then climbed the ladder in 2006 to 11th (this year for us)
-They then made finals in 2007 (our 2015)
-They won the flag in 2008 (our 2016) which most viewed as an over achievement

We're not fairing too badly but we need to improve as the season progresses and be expecting to make finals next year

2008 probably was an over achievement for Hawthorn but I would make the argument that they didn't make the most out of their successful era. They blew it in the 2011 prelim and again the next year in the granny against the Swans.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Looking at Macca's press conferences, he looks like he is getting very impatient and frustrated by what the players are doing out there. In particular he mentioned we shouldn't have little blokes flying for marks in the forward line (insert Hunter), when the big blokes should have positioned themselves in the right spot.

He also said you can be assured the blokes playing out there won't be the same 22 taking us forward.

Did he say this?

[bornadog]

Did he say this?

Have a listen to it.

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2014-05-04/press-conference-mccartney-post-match-rd7

[Sedat]

2008 probably was an over achievement for Hawthorn but I would make the argument that they didn't make the most out of their successful era. They blew it in the 2011 prelim and again the next year in the granny against the Swans.
I'd love to blow it by only winning 2 flags in a successful era.

[Remi Moses]

Following Hawthorns progress we should essentially be pushing for the top 8 this year but just falling short. And i would say this is what a lot of us expected.

-Hawthorn lost touch with the top 8 in 2003 (they also did in 02 but didnt commence the rebuild until after the 03 season). Comparatively we lost touch in 2011.

-They then hit rock bottom in 2004 (2012 for us)
-They struggled again in 2005 (our 2013)
-They then climbed the ladder in 2006 to 11th (this year for us)
-They then made finals in 2007 (our 2015)
-They won the flag in 2008 (our 2016) which most viewed as an over achievement

We're not fairing too badly but we need to improve as the season progresses and be expecting to make finals next year
They also massacred the 04 draft Buddy, roughy and Lewis. They must give a special thank you card to norf for taking Hay, and Thompson ( was good for them) and the trade of Gibson and now Hale.

[Hot_Doggies]

Think it was more of a "we will keep making changes until we find the best 22" rather than "player a and b are gone"