Match Committee - Round 12 vs Brisbane Lions

[Eastdog]

If you were on the Bulldogs match committee what changes would you make for our round 12 game against Brisbane Lions at Etihad?

As always a brief explanation for your changes would add a lot of value to the discussion.

[GVGjr]

Bump

[The Pie Man]

In: Grant, JJ
Out: Roberts, Howard

No idea what happened to Boyd - if available, Tutt?

Not sure Roberts has 'it' while I'm sure Howard doesn't.

[Ghost Dog]

Better off with Roughead down back. Tommy's ball reading or lack of is bit of a liability.

[azabob]

Better off with Roughead down back. Tommy's ball reading or lack of is bit of a liability.

But Williams didn't play down back today, did he?

[Mantis]

Better off with Roughead down back. Tommy's ball reading or lack of is bit of a liability.

He played back for most of the game.

I thought it was a good move to play him foward given the aerial dominance of Johnson, McPharlin & Dawson... Pity we shat ourselves when Sandilands went forward and moved him straight back.

Tommy is a liability wherever he plays... Time to cut our losses.

[Pickenitup]

In Grant JJ Jones Boyd
Out Williams Howard Roberts Tutt

[boydogs]

Out: Williams, Roberts, Howard, Bontempelli
In: Jones, Grant, Johannisen, Boyd

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Based on the "Were we are at" I think it is time to change it up and look to next year.

Out - Gia, Howard

Ins - Grant & Cambell

I think we need to just mix up the forward line and see how Cambell, Williams, Crameri & Grant go together

[bulldogtragic]

Ins:

Grant, JJ, Hunter

Outs:

Gia, Howard (never to wear our jumper again, I've had enough, not just today, cut our losses), Roberts

[Remi Moses]

In Grant Jones JJ Hunter
Out Gia Williams Roberts Howard ( never going to get there)

[Greystache]

Out- Roberts, Howard, Williams, Gia

In- Redpath, Campbell, Grant, Boyd

I've been supportive of trying Williams forward, but he just isn't an AFL player. Redpath needs a chance.

Howard isn't a VFL player.

Roberts isn't a forward, I'd be happy to keep him in if he plays in defence. I don't give a shit if Campbell doesn't chase as effectively as others, he's our best tall marking option and it would be nice to actually play something resembling positive football.

We need to move on from Gia playing as the sub.

[LostDoggy]

In: Boyd, Grant
Out: Howard, Roberts

Ironically this is shaping up as the such an important game to see where we are at

[GVGjr]

In Boyd, Grant, Johannisen and Redpath
Out Howard, Roberts, Giansiracusa and Tutt.

I'm being hard on Tutt but Grant can play that role up forward.
JJ for Howard should help us add some run in the back line.
Boyd for Giansiracusa should be a win.
Redpath comes in for Roberts which might mean Williams goes to the back line.

[G-Mo77]

In Boyd, Grant, Johannisen and Redpath
Out Howard, Roberts, Giansiracusa and Tutt.

I'm being hard on Tutt but Grant can play that role up forward.
JJ for Howard should help us add some run in the back line.
Boyd for Giansiracusa should be a win.
Redpath comes in for Roberts which might mean Williams goes to the back line.

You're coming around GVGjr.

Agree with these I/O's

You're not being hard on Tutt. Until he learns to handle just a smidgen of pressure he's not going to make it.

I'm thinking the same with Gia. Won't hurt to play him at VFL for a week or two although we're playing the Lions at home so they'll probably keep him in.

[GVGjr]

You're coming around GVGjr.

Agree with these I/O's

You're not being hard on Tutt. Until he learns to handle just a smidgen of pressure he's not going to make it.

I'm thinking the same with Gia. Won't hurt to play him at VFL for a week or two although we're playing the Lions at home so they'll probably keep him in.

I wouldn't normally pick Redpath until later in the year but I think he is on the minds of the MC. Ideally it would be Stringer coming back in. I just want to see a forward line that has Grant, Crameri and Stringer working together

I was tempted to have a look at replacing Cooney who just has had an average month or so.

[bornadog]

In Boyd, Grant, Johannisen and Redpath
Out Howard, Roberts, Giansiracusa and Tutt.

I'm being hard on Tutt but Grant can play that role up forward.
JJ for Howard should help us add some run in the back line.
Boyd for Giansiracusa should be a win.
Redpath comes in for Roberts which might mean Williams goes to the back line.

Same

[Maddog37]

Prefer to keep Roberts in rather than Williams if it is to be a defensive role.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Prefer to keep Roberts in rather than Williams if it is to be a defensive role.

This.

Williams is finished anyway.

[Mantis]

Williams is finished anyway.

Did he even start?

[Greystache]

Did he even start?

Not as far as I'm concerned. You could count the good games in his career on one hand.

[bulldogtragic]

Not as far as I'm concerned. You could count the good games in his career on one hand.

You need one full hand?

[Greystache]

You need one full hand?

Yes, I used to work in a saw mill :D

(Apologies to any former saw mill workers, or anyone short a digit or two)

[Ozza]

Outs: Williams; Howard; Gia; Roberts
Ins: Jones; Boyd; Grant; Stringer

JJ to come in if Boyd doesn't come up again.

Picken; Roughead; Wood
Higgins; Morris; Murphy
Macrae; Wallis; Griffen
Stevens; Jones; Grant
Dahlhaus; Crameri; Stringer
Minson; Boyd; Liberatore
Int: Cooney; Tutt; Bontempelli; Hrovat

[KT31]

Outs : Tutt, Williams, Gia, Howard
Ins : Campbell, Boyd, Grant, Stringer

[1eyedog]

IN: Boyd, JJ, Redpath, Grant
OUT: Howard, Roberts, Gia, Tutt

I was a big advocate for Redpath coming in against Freo but I understood the reasons why he didn't. If he doesn't come in this week why the hell is he on the list?

I expect Grant to come in also. Tutt for JJ and Howard for Boyd.

[F'scary]

Out: Close the door on (Howard) the worst first round draft pick since, well, Ayce Cordy; Gia has to make way for youth; Williams - he's played two good games only this year as I recall (GWS & Melbourne).

In: Grant for Gia; Jones for Williams; anyone for Howard - but seriously, Boyd for Howard.

[always right]

Why do people seem to get so much joy heaping scorn on Howard? I get it...he should never have been drafted so early and he looks like he's not going to make it but what I don't get is the absolute disdain for the bloke. It's become a bit of a sport.

[Before I Die]

Why do people seem to get so much joy heaping scorn on Howard? I get it...he should never have been drafted so early and he looks like he's not going to make it but what I don't get is the absolute disdain for the bloke. It's become a bit of a sport.

I don't understand any of the abuse that is thrown about when posters are giving their ins and outs. Apparently adding a personal insult and a hint of anger adds credibility to selection choices.

[Remi Moses]

Why do people seem to get so much joy heaping scorn on Howard? I get it...he should never have been drafted so early and he looks like he's not going to make it but what I don't get is the absolute disdain for the bloke. It's become a bit of a sport.

It's getting a bit personal. Just not up to it as a player.

[GVGjr]

Why do people seem to get so much joy heaping scorn on Howard? I get it...he should never have been drafted so early and he looks like he's not going to make it but what I don't get is the absolute disdain for the bloke. It's become a bit of a sport.


It's ridiculous, some seem to blame him for where he was drafted and what was reported as being his strengths at the time.
If he was a 3rd round pick most would just say it hasn't quite worked.

A year or so ago I compared the stats between Howard and Easton Wood and they were pretty similar in fact from memory Howard's might have been a bit better.
Until this year Wood had pretty much flown under the radar while Howard's been under scrutiny from early on.

Howard's an easy target because he was drafted early and like all early picks the club talked him up.

[jeemak]

Why do people seem to get so much joy heaping scorn on Howard? I get it...he should never have been drafted so early and he looks like he's not going to make it but what I don't get is the absolute disdain for the bloke. It's become a bit of a sport.

Tend to get the same feeling as you. I'd prefer to read comments on the specifics of the game or trends to justify a player omission to at least make a non-intellectual discussion almost sound like one.

[wimberga]

IN: Boyd, JJ, Grant, Stringer
OUT: Howard, Roberts, Gia, Tutt

[azabob]

To clarify is jones avaiable for selection?

[always right]

It's ridiculous, some seem to blame him for where he was drafted and what was reported as being his strengths at the time.
If he was a 3rd round pick most would just say it hasn't quite worked.

A year or so ago I compared the stats between Howard and Easton Wood and they were pretty similar in fact from memory Howard's might have been a bit better.
Until this year Wood had pretty much flown under the radar while Howard's been under scrutiny from early on.

Howard's an easy target because he was drafted early and like all early picks the club talked him up.

It doesn't really bother me if people don't rate Howard. It's the ridicule of the bloke I don't get. It's way out of proportion. The blokes played more AFL games than all of us combined but the way posters speak about him you'd reckon he is the worst player to have ever pulled on a bulldogs guernsey.

[always right]

To clarify is jones avaiable for selection?

Yes...he had a two match suspension.

[Mantis]

A year or so ago I compared the stats between Howard and Easton Wood and they were pretty similar in fact from memory Howard's might have been a bit better.
Until this year Wood had pretty much flown under the radar while Howard's been under scrutiny from early on.



Stats don't tell you how well a player defends.. Wood can, Howard can't.

[LostDoggy]

Interesting selections this week.

Brisbane have lost Trent West (and Luenberger is still not available) I'm not sure if they have another ruckmen on their list to bring in?

Merrett will spend a fair bit of time in the ruck I would assume. Do we bring in Campbell to really stretch them down back?

Roberts plays backline or not at all and he has no match-up down back this week, Roughy to Brown and Morris to Paine.

In: Campbell, Jones, Grant, Boyd
Out: Howard, Williams, Roberts, Tutt

[Maddog37]

Why not play Roberts on Brown and throw Ruffy forward?

[G-Mo77]

It's ridiculous, some seem to blame him for where he was drafted and what was reported as being his strengths at the time.
If he was a 3rd round pick most would just say it hasn't quite worked.

A year or so ago I compared the stats between Howard and Easton Wood and they were pretty similar in fact from memory Howard's might have been a bit better.
Until this year Wood had pretty much flown under the radar while Howard's been under scrutiny from early on.

Howard's an easy target because he was drafted early and like all early picks the club talked him up.

Not going to get into the shouldn't bag debate. I've bagged him, so have others.

In regards to the were he was drafted being the reason maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If he was drafted as a 3rd rounder he wouldn't be on our list now so there would be no debate. Because he was drafted so high he's been given chance after chance after chance and hell lets give him more according to Macca. For me personally I'm frustrated he's still on our list taking up a spot and worse yet taking a spot in our senior side which he doesn't deserve. This spot would be better used for someone who can actually play AFL football and know the basic fundamentals of the game. I don't discriminate on were he was drafted, if he's not up to it cut him 1st rounder or 7th doesn't matter. Stop hanging onto these players for so long in hope that one day they might come good.

[bulldogtragic]

Not going to get into the shouldn't bag debate. I've bagged him, so have others.

In regards to the were he was drafted being the reason maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If he was drafted as a 3rd rounder he wouldn't be on our list now so there would be no debate. Because he was drafted so high he's been given chance after chance after chance and hell lets give him more according to Macca. For me personally I'm frustrated he's still on our list taking up a spot and worse yet taking a spot in our senior side which he doesn't deserve. This spot would be better used for someone who can actually play AFL football and know the basic fundamentals of the game. I don't discriminate on were he was drafted, if he's not up to it cut him 1st rounder or 7th doesn't matter. Stop hanging onto these players for so long in hope that one day they might come good.

Perfect summary GMo. I think historically we've held onto some clearly failing top picks because I imagine we can't admit the drafting of them so high was come to be seen as a bad decision. Much like a problem gambler putting in a few thousand dollars a week over a year chasing their losses (Howard's salary). As you also so elegantly put, if Howard went at pick 80 he'd have been long gone and we'd have another player on the list who at least has a chance of making it, because Howard won't. I'm not sure how Macca really thinks he's a 100 game player or deserved to keep his spot, he's shown nothing on the field to date to show he's capable of achieving anything. It was a bad decision to give him a new contract last year, and after last game, it's made me even stronger in my resolve that it was a actually a shocking decision to re-sign him.

[jeemak]

Perfect summary GMo. I think historically we've held onto some clearly failing top picks because I imagine we can't admit the drafting of them so high was come to be seen as a bad decision. Much like a problem gambler putting in a few thousand dollars a week over a year chasing their losses (Howard's salary). As you also so elegantly put, if Howard went at pick 80 he'd have been long gone and we'd have another player on the list who at least has a chance of making it, because Howard won't. I'm not sure how Macca really thinks he's a 100 game player or deserved to keep his spot, he's shown nothing on the field to date to show he's capable of achieving anything. It was a bad decision to give him a new contract last year, and after last game, it's made me even stronger in my resolve that it was a actually a shocking decision to re-sign him.

I think is probably where the MC and some supporters disagree with you. IMO out of his 19 games he's played two very well, and a handful which could be deemed serviceable.

Unfortunately he has played a number of less than serviceable games and outright ordinary games (albeit in defence in a terrible side, quite often under seige) where some significant issues with his defensive skills and overall understanding of positioning have been exposed. His ball use has also been a concern over these games.

All this after missing pretty significant chunks of footy due to injury. I won't be surprised if he doesn't make the grade, and I don't expect him to be on the list at the end of this year, but to claim he has shown nothing at all is over the top for me.

[bornadog]

Why not play Roberts on Brown and throw Ruffy forward?

Moving Roughead forward is not going to work. It didn't on Sunday either.

Why can't we develop him into the best Full Back in the AFL instead of stuffing him around?

[Greystache]

Moving Roughead forward is not going to work. It didn't on Sunday either.

Why can't we develop him into the best Full Back in the AFL instead of stuffing him around?

Totally agree. If we're being honest the only time he's looked like a quality AFL player is in defence. He should be the one piece of the puzzle that is locked in place that we can build around.

[Mofra]

Why not play Roberts on Brown and throw Ruffy forward?
Does Roberts deserve another week? I've been on his bandwagon but he had a very poor game against Freo.

It's hard with no VFL last week, as a Stringer or Talia could have pressed their case for a recall.

Because of that I'd expect the only changes to be Jones & Boyd coming back in.
Roberts played forward so is a case for a Jones swap.
Howard possibly for Boyd but as much as I don't think Howard will make the grade, he deserves more than a single week to salvage his career.

[azabob]

Personally I'd be inclined to leave Roberts in. He has one bad game - I thought he was just ok against Gold Coast and serviceable against Melbourne.

We need a second key defender. Why not give him a few more games down back, with Roughead and Morris offering support?

Backline of

Wood, Roughead, Morris
Murphy, Roberts, Higgins

[bornadog]

Does Roberts deserve another week? I've been on his bandwagon but he had a very poor game against Freo.

He played the season in the VFL in defence, then he played against Melbourne, in defence. Why do we put him in the forward line against Freo?

[LostDoggy]

Personally I'd be inclined to leave Roberts in. He has one bad game - I thought he was just ok against Gold Coast and serviceable against Melbourne.

We need a second key defender. Why not give him a few more games down back, with Roughead and Morris offering support?

Backline of

Wood, Roughead, Morris
Murphy, Roberts, Higgins

Does Roberts really have a suitable match up this week though?

[azabob]

Does Roberts really have a suitable match up this week though?

Yeah, to be honest I don't know.

Brown is playing forward that is a given.

Brisbane may bring a big man in? McGuire may play forward?

[Axe Man]

Stefan Martin is the most likely to come in for West. That would mean Brown, Paine and one of Merrett/Martin (resting ruck) in their forward line. We will probably still need 3 tall backmen.

[azabob]

Stefan Martin is the most likely to come in for West. That would mean Brown, Paine and one of Merrett/Martin (resting ruck) in their forward line. We will probably still need 3 tall backmen.

Thanks for the opposition scouting report Axe Man.

[LostDoggy]

In: Boyd, Jones, Grant
Out: Gia, Fletcher, Howard

Very hard to drop Howard after only 1 game though.

Williams stays in. Has had another tough year but against Brissie he will kick some goals. Keen to see Williams, Jones and Grant together with Hrovat and Dahlhaus at their feet.

[LostDoggy]

In: Boyd, Jones, Grant
Out: Gia, Fletcher, Howard

Very hard to drop Howard after only 1 game though.

Williams stays in. Has had another tough year but against Brissie he will kick some goals. Keen to see Williams, Jones and Grant together with Hrovat and Dahlhaus at their feet.

That's some good ins right there!

[F'scary]

Perfect summary GMo. I think historically we've held onto some clearly failing top picks because I imagine we can't admit the drafting of them so high was come to be seen as a bad decision. Much like a problem gambler putting in a few thousand dollars a week over a year chasing their losses (Howard's salary). As you also so elegantly put, if Howard went at pick 80 he'd have been long gone and we'd have another player on the list who at least has a chance of making it, because Howard won't. I'm not sure how Macca really thinks he's a 100 game player or deserved to keep his spot, he's shown nothing on the field to date to show he's capable of achieving anything. It was a bad decision to give him a new contract last year, and after last game, it's made me even stronger in my resolve that it was a actually a shocking decision to re-sign him.

Like my post, these are the facts of the matter. No ridicule. Just the facts.

[jeemak]

Like my post, these are the facts of the matter. No ridicule. Just the facts.

There's some of us that don't see it that way, including the football department at our football club and some members/supporters - (though their numbers would probably be deteriorating by the day!).

[azabob]

IN: Jones, Grant, Boyd

OUT: Williams, Howard, Tutt

[F'scary]

There's some of us that don't see it that way, including the football department at our football club and some members/supporters - (though their numbers would probably be deteriorating by the day!).

I take your point jeemak but...it is a blood sport, after all. Like Libba Snr says at the end of Year of the Dogs, "it is all about emotions really..." That is what is inside the air conveyance they fight over. It is gladiators. The thumb goes up...or it goes down and every supporter is Caesar.

[LostDoggy]

I take your point jeemak but...it is a blood sport, after all. Like Libba Snr says at the end of Year of the Dogs, "it is all about emotions really..." That is what is inside the air conveyance they fight over. It is gladiators. The thumb goes up...or it goes down and every supporter is Caesar.

Love this. Taking your analogy one step further; the caveat being that, if at all possible, we don't want to be feeding our own to the lions.

[jeemak]

I take your point jeemak but...it is a blood sport, after all. Like Libba Snr says at the end of Year of the Dogs, "it is all about emotions really..." That is what is inside the air conveyance they fight over. It is gladiators. The thumb goes up...or it goes down and every supporter is Caesar.

And how many AFL Premierships has Libba Snr been involved in?

That's an irrelevant question, apologies. Anyway, I'm sure the approach taken towards balancing our list and retaining players is a measured one - balanced between the objective and subjective, and likely be bereft of emotion.

[jeemak]

Perhaps we should get back to this week's selection.

In - Boyd, Grant, Jones
Out - Roberts, Howard, Gia

No issues with Gia being the sub or playing full games or sitting it out, and his omission for this week is fairly well in-line with how the plan was put to us as supporters/members.

It's disappointing Howard gets dropped after one game, though there's players that should be playing ahead of him ready to go and he didn't take his opportunity as well as he needed to in order to keep his spot.

[azabob]

Perhaps we should get back to this week's selection.

In - Boyd, Grant, Jones
Out - Roberts, Howard, Gia

No issues with Gia being the sub or playing full games or sitting it out, and his omission for this week is fairly well in-line with how the plan was put to us as supporters/members.

It's disappointing Howard gets dropped after one game, though there's players that should be playing ahead of him ready to go and he didn't take his opportunity as well as he needed to in order to keep his spot.

Where do you see Williams playing?

[GVGjr]

Stats don't tell you how well a player defends.. Wood can, Howard can't.

And the point of what I had written was if Wood had have been a first round selection he wouldn't have flown under the radar.
Howard's been a victim of where he was selected from day one. Expectations of him were far greater than Wood who has been given years to prove his worth.

[bulldogtragic]

And the point of what I had written was if Wood had have been a first round selection he wouldn't have flown under the radar.
Howard's been a victim of where he was selected from day one. Expectations of him were far greater than Wood who has been given years to prove his worth.

G, you defend Howard like Fossie defender KMac, I tip my lid for defending the unpopular or unsexy player or position.

But to some degree, don't expectations need to be linked to draft position? It's like those at Melbourne using the same argument with Watts. It's we the fans who are feed expectations through our recruiters selections, especially at the pointy end. Players drafted in the first round should be judged a little more strongly because they obviously have the talent to reach these expectations. I expect that Stringer, Grant, Smith and Howard should be best 22 players and reach the potential our recruiters indicated that they could by drafting them at a certain pick.

I honestly believe that if Howard wasn't a first round pick, he'd be playing mediocre footy in the SANFL right now.

[Ghost Dog]

Watching VFA footage, is Tom Campbell a replacement for Tom Williams? He seems a lot more mobile and might clunk a few.

[jeemak]

That's fair enough BT. But, I can't really tell whether you are advocating for draft position to account for something or advocating for it not to when it comes to evaluating developing players.

Aside from popular opinion being that we reached for Howard (something I agree with) our recruiters and football managers have managed to either convince Bmac (and other decision makers) of his worth, or Bmac has seen enough in person over a two year period to suggest that perhaps giving one more year to him wasn't the most ridiculous decision in the history of football (a title which giving Mulligan a three year deal probably owns anyway) because he saw some of the traits he believes make a footballer.

[jeemak]

Where do you see Williams playing?

Good question.

With Roberts out I think probably down back, with a little bit of rucking. I don't think I've ever been convinced he's a forward anyway, though like a few others I'm not convinced he's not missed the boat on becoming a solid defender simply due to a chronic lack of continuity.

[bornadog]

Watching VFA footage, is Tom Campbell a replacement for Tom Williams? He seems a lot more mobile and might clunk a few.

Campbell is slow compared to Williams.

[lemmon]

Yeah, to be honest I don't know.

Brown is playing forward that is a given.

Brisbane may bring a big man in? McGuire may play forward?
Merrett has been forward, even Paparone is rangy, marking type

[Greystache]

Campbell is slow compared to Williams.

No he's not. Campbell beat Williams in the speed tests at the club.

Campbell is a lot quicker than many people give him credit for.

[bornadog]

No he's not. Campbell beat Williams in the speed tests at the club.

Campbell is a lot quicker than many people give him credit for.

That is surprising. Over what distance was the test?

[bulldogtragic]

That's fair enough BT. But, I can't really tell whether you are advocating for draft position to account for something or advocating for it not to when it comes to evaluating developing players.

Aside from popular opinion being that we reached for Howard (something I agree with) our recruiters and football managers have managed to either convince Bmac (and other decision makers) of his worth, or Bmac has seen enough in person over a two year period to suggest that perhaps giving one more year to him wasn't the most ridiculous decision in the history of football (a title which giving Mulligan a three year deal probably owns anyway) because he saw some of the traits he believes make a footballer.

Can you imagine Mulligan telling the guys when he left the meeting room... "Get in there quick boys, they're completely high, if you ask for anything today they're saying 'yes', I just got a 3 year extension" :)

[bornadog]

Can you imagine Mulligan telling the guys when he left the meeting room... "Get in there quick boys, they're completely high, if you ask for anything today they're saying 'yes', I just got a 3 year extension" :)
Bloody Fantasia

[Greystache]

That is surprising. Over what distance was the test?

20m. The one they do with the electronic timers from the elite learning centre onto the oval. He also beat Wallis, Libba, Howard, Bontempelli, Young, Roberts just off the top of my head.

[bornadog]

20m. The one they do with the electronic timers from the elite learning centre onto the oval. He also beat Wallis, Libba, Howard, Bontempelli, Young, Roberts just off the top of my head.

Well he needs to use it more instead of standing in the goal square like a log :D

[Scorlibo]

20m. The one they do with the electronic timers from the elite learning centre onto the oval. He also beat Wallis, Libba, Howard, Bontempelli, Young, Roberts just off the top of my head.

Doesn't mean much when out on the ground opponents run rings around him. There are a lot of big men with good straight line speed, if only the game was played in straight lines.

[jeemak]

20m. The one they do with the electronic timers from the elite learning centre onto the oval. He also beat Wallis, Libba, Howard, Bontempelli, Young, Roberts just off the top of my head.

Wonder what it's like over 40-60m on repeat...........probably not great which is why you'd keep him close to goal. I'd think Williams would have him covered, which is probably why he's shown more across half forward than deep.

Irrespective of that, to cover Libba and Bonts is a good effort. From what I recall the former tested quite well at the combine.

[Happy Days]

Howard needs to go, Boyd and the god need to play.

In: Grant, Boyd

Out: Roberts, Howard

Play Jones ahead of Williams if you want to, I don't care they're as bad as each other.

[westbulldog]

out Howard Roberts Gia
in Boyd Grant Campbell

[GVGjr]

G, you defend Howard like Fossie defender KMac, I tip my lid for defending the unpopular or unsexy player or position.

But to some degree, don't expectations need to be linked to draft position? It's like those at Melbourne using the same argument with Watts. It's we the fans who are feed expectations through our recruiters selections, especially at the pointy end. Players drafted in the first round should be judged a little more strongly because they obviously have the talent to reach these expectations. I expect that Stringer, Grant, Smith and Howard should be best 22 players and reach the potential our recruiters indicated that they could by drafting them at a certain pick.

I honestly believe that if Howard wasn't a first round pick, he'd be playing mediocre footy in the SANFL right now.

I don't think the comparison to K-Mac is in any way accurate and I'm not really defending Howard just pointing out that a lot of opinions are based on where a player is drafted. This isn't something a player can control but ultimately it's the player more than the club that drafted them who takes the brunt of the criticism if they don't measure up.
After we drafted him we also made mention that other clubs were interested in him which is why we went early. I think we 'reached' for him and tried to manufacture reasons why.

As an example Easton Wood was taken a couple of rounds later and hasn't experienced anywhere near the level of scrutiny that Howard has. Both of them arrived at the club from a non traditional pathway which I also don't think gets factored in.
We took a fly on Howard and then we had to defend that position by setting expectations that he hasn't measured up to.
From my understanding the coaching panel wanted players with "quick in the air" kicking skills and the recruiters under a new recruiting manager identified Howard and Tutt. It was a calculated gamble which obviously hasn't paid dividends.

Re Watts, I don't think he deserves the sort of negative comments that he receives. He might not have lived up to the expectations of a 1st pick in a draft but at a better club that wasn't tanking games he might very well now be a better footballer. Also a lot of early picks haven't measured up at Melbourne including Tom Scully.
A lot of early picks at the Dogs haven't measured up either. I can assure you the likes of Everitt and Grant frustrated me.

I can't be as critical of players to the same extent others seem to be able to unless I think they have displayed a poor work ethic.
Simply speaking Howard has the balance of the season to see if he can impress.

[bornadog]

I don't think the comparison to K-Mac is in any way accurate and I'm not really defending Howard just pointing out that a lot of opinions are based on where a player is drafted. This isn't something a player can control but ultimately it's the player more than the club that drafted them who takes the brunt of the criticism if they don't measure up.
After we drafted him we also made mention that other clubs were interested in him which is why we went early. I think we 'reached' for him and tried to manufacture reasons why.

As an example Easton Wood was taken a couple of rounds later and hasn't experienced anywhere near the level of scrutiny that Howard has. Both of them arrived at the club from a non traditional pathway which I also don't think gets factored in.
We took a fly on Howard and then we had to defend that position by setting expectations that he hasn't measured up to.
From my understanding the coaching panel wanted players with "quick in the air" kicking skills and the recruiters under a new recruiting manager identified Howard and Tutt. It was a calculated gamble which obviously hasn't paid dividends.

Re Watts, I don't think he deserves the sort of negative comments that he receives. He might not have lived up to the expectations of a 1st pick in a draft but at a better club that wasn't tanking games he might very well now be a better footballer. Also a lot of early picks haven't measured up at Melbourne including Tom Scully.
A lot of early picks at the Dogs haven't measured up either. I can assure you the likes of Everitt and Grant frustrated me.

I can't be as critical of players to the same extent others seem to be able to unless I think they have displayed a poor work ethic.
Simply speaking Howard has the balance of the season to see if he can impress.

Good post GVGjr, agree with everything you have said. All draft picks are a gamble whether taken at one or 51. If we had picks in the first three and took Howard then we would really have a reason to not be happy.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't think the comparison to K-Mac is in any way accurate and I'm not really defending Howard just pointing out that a lot of opinions are based on where a player is drafted. This isn't something a player can control but ultimately it's the player more than the club that drafted them who takes the brunt of the criticism if they don't measure up.
After we drafted him we also made mention that other clubs were interested in him which is why we went early. I think we 'reached' for him and tried to manufacture reasons why.

As an example Easton Wood was taken a couple of rounds later and hasn't experienced anywhere near the level of scrutiny that Howard has. Both of them arrived at the club from a non traditional pathway which I also don't think gets factored in.
We took a fly on Howard and then we had to defend that position by setting expectations that he hasn't measured up to.
From my understanding the coaching panel wanted players with "quick in the air" kicking skills and the recruiters under a new recruiting manager identified Howard and Tutt. It was a calculated gamble which obviously hasn't paid dividends.

Re Watts, I don't think he deserves the sort of negative comments that he receives. He might not have lived up to the expectations of a 1st pick in a draft but at a better club that wasn't tanking games he might very well now be a better footballer. Also a lot of early picks haven't measured up at Melbourne including Tom Scully.
A lot of early picks at the Dogs haven't measured up either. I can assure you the likes of Everitt and Grant frustrated me.

I can't be as critical of players to the same extent others seem to be able to unless I think they have displayed a poor work ethic.
Simply speaking Howard has the balance of the season to see if he can impress.

I've been inelegant with my English. The only reference to KMac was that Fossie defended him to the death despite the crap the Fossie copped for doing it. I respected Fossie for doing so. The link was you are doing the same, despite it being easier to not defend him or explore issues around him. And I respect that equally too. Sorry to make you write a long post to a point I wasn't making, my bad. To your last point I let him go no matter what, he can get us a draft pick via trade I take it.

[bornadog]

Where do you see Williams playing?


McCartney said Tom Williams will again line up in the Bulldogs attacking half after getting through the Fremantle clash unscathed.“Tom’s right, he got through the game, got nullified by a really good opponent at times last week but he will play this week,” he said.
“We will have a pretty mobile forward line I think, with still a fair share of height in it.”

also


Liam Jones is in the mix for selection in the Western Bulldogs side against the Brisbane Lions on Saturday night, along with a number of forwards vying for a position, including Jarrad Grant.
Senior Coach Brendan McCartney said up to four players were competing for a spot in the lineup, which will be decided in today’s main training session.

[Ozza]

I watched the press conference. Judging by that - although Grant was said to be 'in the mix' - to me it sounded like he was less likely, than likely.

Macca basically said he had 3 quarters of a game, then a bye, then a full game, and then another week off after a 3 month rehabilitation - so the preparation was not ideal....but that 'he's pretty close'.

[wimberga]

I watched the press conference. Judging by that - although Grant was said to be 'in the mix' - to me it sounded like he was less likely, than likely.

Macca basically said he had 3 quarters of a game, then a bye, then a full game, and then another week off after a 3 month rehabilitation - so the preparation was not ideal....but that 'he's pretty close'.


Sub! Just give us something.

[LostDoggy]

Don't totally hate the idea of Grant playing another game in the magoos. We ain't contending this year so whatever is better for his development lets just do that. He would certainly help v Brissie though.

[Bulldog Joe]

Don't totally hate the idea of Grant playing another game in the magoos. We ain't contending this year so whatever is better for his development lets just do that. He would certainly help v Brissie though.

I would like to see him in. Get his game time up in the real stuff.

If he plays at Footscray, he does need to perform so that he actually demands a full game against Collingwood.

[LostDoggy]

Out - Williams

In - Jones

[jeemak]

Out - Williams

In - Jones

Boooooolllllldddd move TR. Are you keeping in Robets, Howard et al for continuity in their game time?

[bornadog]

Out - Williams

In - Jones

You need to check Macca's press conference - Williams will be playing.

[azabob]

You need to check Macca's press conference - Williams will be playing.

This is true, but this thread is about what you would do, not guess what the MC would / will do.

[bornadog]

This is true, but this thread is about what you would do, not guess what the MC would / will do.

Really I never knew that. I thought it was for our predictions for this week. If I put down what I would do I would be shot down by most posters :D

[bulldogtragic]

Really I never knew that. I thought it was for our predictions for this week. If I put down what I would do I would be shot down by most posters :D

I'll defend you right to say what you want BAD :)

There's nothing wrong with contesting current wisdom, if we didn't we'd still believe the world was flat and that Gia should still be subbing each week.

[GVGjr]

Really I never knew that. I thought it was for our predictions for this week. If I put down what I would do I would be shot down by most posters :D

I don't want to guess but I hope it's a bit more detailed than the old "Play the kids" theme.

[bornadog]

I don't want to guess but I hope it's a bit more detailed than the old "Play the kids" theme.

There was a reason for the laughing emoticon.

[boydogs]

Really I never knew that. I thought it was for our predictions for this week. If I put down what I would do I would be shot down by most posters :D

I try to mix what I would do with what I can realistically see the MC doing. It would be boring if posters kept saying Gia out, Stringer in etc. every week regardless of form just because they have their favourites.

[bulldogtragic]

I try to mix what I would do with what I can realistically see the MC doing. It would be boring if posters kept saying Gia out, Stringer in etc. every week regardless of form just because they have their favourites.

Gia out
Stringer in

:) :)

[1eyedog]

In: Grant, Boyd, Redpath (is Dicko on LTI)
Out: Roberts, Gia, Howard

[azabob]

Really I never knew that. I thought it was for our predictions for this week. If I put down what I would do I would be shot down by most posters :D

So, what would you do? ��
BT has your back!

[bornadog]

Official: One Change

In Grant

Out Roberts

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpWmbsTCYAAcM5M.jpg:large

[LostDoggy]

playing one short again ... how does Howard get a game?

[kruder]

Official: One Change

In Grant

Out Roberts

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpWmbsTCYAAcM5M.jpg:large

Why Grant this week and not last?

[LostDoggy]

he was sore

[GVGjr]

That's not nearly enough changes given the loss. Okay, Boyd isn't available but Howard for JJ (preferred) or Stringer or Hunter (Is he injured?) makes far more sense to me.

Boyd not being available might have also saved Giansiracusa from a spell but while Macca and the match committee are showing a level of faith in the paying group they had better get a good return for it. This is an important game

[Remi Moses]

Gee a few lucky to keep their spots.
Howard and Gia lucky

[Greystache]

Wow, there's really no interest in entertaining the supporters. We're playing last on the ladder, but against any half decent team we'd struggle to score.

[azabob]

Wow, there's really no interest in entertaining the supporters. We're playing last on the ladder, but against any half decent team we'd struggle to score.

What changes did you want made?

[neddie]

Surely you cannot be serious!,who would be any attention to the "ravings" of the Woofers ?

[Remi Moses]

Wow, there's really no interest in entertaining the supporters. We're playing last on the ladder, but against any half decent team we'd struggle to score.

Who do you want in the side for "entertainment"
Dave Letterman ? Jay Leno?

[Greystache]

Who do you want in the side for "entertainment"
Dave Letterman ? Jay Leno?

No, I go to the football for entertainment. If I'm not being that I look for something else to entertain me, I don't find us entertaining the way we play.

[Greystache]

Out- Roberts, Howard, Williams, Gia

In- Redpath, Campbell, Grant, Boyd

I've been supportive of trying Williams forward, but he just isn't an AFL player. Redpath needs a chance.

Howard isn't a VFL player.

Roberts isn't a forward, I'd be happy to keep him in if he plays in defence. I don't give a shit if Campbell doesn't chase as effectively as others, he's our best tall marking option and it would be nice to actually play something resembling positive football.

We need to move on from Gia playing as the sub.


What changes did you want made?

As above

[Scorlibo]

It doesn't surprise me that there have been few changes made after a mostly positive result last week.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

That's not nearly enough changes given the loss. Okay, Boyd isn't available but Howard for JJ (preferred) or Stringer or Hunter (Is he injured?) makes far more sense to me.

Boyd not being available might have also saved Giansiracusa from a spell but while Macca and the match committee are showing a level of faith in the paying group they had better get a good return for it. This is an important game

Agree with this.

I want to see Hunter perform well at VFL level for a few weeks before earning a recall, but this would have been a good game for the likes of Stringer, JJ and Redpath to play.

Gia and Williams really shouldn't be playing. Add Howard to the list, but I guess I can live with us giving him one last chance (a few games) before the strong likelihood of delisting him.

[The bulldog tragician]

I'm quite intrigued by what is happening to Lachie Hunter. Why is he not in the mix at present? (genuine question..injury? Attitude? Form?)

In such a non- sparkling forward line, his smarts are missed. Even though he seemed to tire, Hrovat for example added a bit of zest that's badly lacking, so I'm wondering where Lachie is at.

[F'scary]

What is Brown like nowdays - is he a hack?

Otherwise, like others I am shocked at the lack of changes but welcome Grant back.

[Remi Moses]

No, I go to the football for entertainment. If I'm not being that I look for something else to entertain me, I don't find us entertaining the way we play.

The football with its massive focus isn't an entertainment any more.
It's just so clinical in this era, and for me I was entertained by the characters that went to the football.
Don't mind being entertained as a neutral, but find watching us stressful ( in particular when there's more riding on the game)

[Remi Moses]

I'm quite intrigued by what is happening to Lachie Hunter. Why is he not in the mix at present? (genuine question..injury? Attitude? Form?)

In such a non- sparkling forward line, his smarts are missed. Even though he seemed to tire, Hrovat for example added a bit of zest that's badly lacking, so I'm wondering where Lachie is at.
Hunter should be in the side ahead of Gia .
Don't get it

[GVGjr]

I'm quite intrigued by what is happening to Lachie Hunter. Why is he not in the mix at present? (genuine question..injury? Attitude? Form?)

In such a non- sparkling forward line, his smarts are missed. Even though he seemed to tire, Hrovat for example added a bit of zest that's badly lacking, so I'm wondering where Lachie is at.

I believe he missed a week with an injury. He might mnot have been able to play last week as well even if there wasn't a bye.
It might be the reason why he is given a week at Footscray

[bulldogtragic]

Man, I must be stupid. I can't seem to understand Gia playing. Each week it's gets harder and harder to understand, yet here we go again.

[bulldogtragic]

If Grant pulls out sore, we could conceivably play the same side... I'm going to watch, but I'm not looking forward to it.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Man, I must be stupid. I can't seem to understand Gia playing. Each week it's gets harder and harder to understand, yet here we go again.

I don't mind Gia playing if he's contributing, but the contributions are few and far in between.

It's also almost at that point of the season where we need to make some calls (eg. Gia, Howard, Williams) given our current position and situation.

In fact not almost, it is at that point.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't mind Gia playing if he's contributing, but the contributions are few and far in between.

It's also almost at that point of the season where we need to make some calls (eg. Gia, Howard, Williams) given our current position and situation.

In fact not almost, it is at that point.

An argument could be made the point in time for decisions was in at least 2 of them, over 9 months ago.

[jeemak]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Gia given a full run this week. We need to hit the scoreboard early, he's more likely to help that than others in the team.

I'd like to have seen more changes. I thought Howard was particularly lucky to keep is spot, but if they're giving him an extended run at salvaging his career then it makes sense for him to play. What I think we forget about Jones is he was pretty ordinary against Melbourne.

Campbell hasn't really commanded a spot, so I can understand him not playing.

[F'scary]

Looking at the non-selections, I'm surprised that Cordy isn't given a run. After all, he has a career to salvage as well.

[bornadog]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Gia given a full run this week. We need to hit the scoreboard early, he's more likely to help that than others in the team.

I'd like to have seen more changes. I thought Howard was particularly lucky to keep is spot, but if they're giving him an extended run at salvaging his career then it makes sense for him to play. What I think we forget about Jones is he was pretty ordinary against Melbourne.

Campbell hasn't really commanded a spot, so I can understand him not playing.

I am guessing Grant will be sub this week.

[jeemak]

I am guessing Grant will be sub this week.

My guess is either Bontempelli, Howard or Tutt. But, I am genuinely happy to admit I don't have the foggiest idea.

[bornadog]

My guess is either Bontempelli, Howard or Tutt. But, I am genuinely happy to admit I don't have the foggiest idea.

Tutt needs to kick goals and not just bomb the ball into the forward line. He also needs to go in harder after shirking a few last week.

[LostDoggy]

Examples of when he jibbed it ?

[bornadog]

Examples of when he jibbed it ?

Can't remember who handballed it to him, but should have gone towards the ball but just stood there and Freo player spoilt the handball. Personally I thought he should have gone in hard but seemed to lazy or something.

[azabob]

Examples of when he jibbed it ?

There was at least one on the members wing / half forward line where he waited for the footy rather than getting and Freo ran away with the ball.

[Scorlibo]

Man, I must be stupid. I can't seem to understand Gia playing. Each week it's gets harder and harder to understand, yet here we go again.

How about 11 disposals as the sub last week? Three score assists? Does that help you understand?

[Remi Moses]

Tutt needs to kick goals and not just bomb the ball into the forward line. He also needs to go in harder after shirking a few last week.

Bit harsh on him . The incident I remember was waiting for the bounce . He didn't squib that contest, just made the wrong call.

[Remi Moses]

How about 11 disposals as the sub last week? Three score assists? Does that help you understand?

It's time to move on with Gia. What are we gaining by playing him every week?

[jeemak]

Bit harsh on him . The incident I remember was waiting for the bounce . He didn't squib that contest, just made the wrong call.

I actually saw that contest as him being wrong footed after trying to move into space but the handball was either muffled or fell short. The result was Tutt seemingly standing still, when the Fremantle player moving towards goal and the person handballing it having an advantage.

Could be wrong. We all interpret and remember scenarios differently at the game.

[bulldogtragic]

How about 11 disposals as the sub last week? Three score assists? Does that help you understand?

Nope. Those numbers aren't special, and that over simplifies the whole (virtually) permanent sub thing, as to restrictions, predictability and coaching advantages we lose. It ain't working. If he's best 21 play him. If not, let Honeychurch and other young players learn from playing with him in real match conditions in the VFL. He's a club champion and should not have his legacy come to a part time sub player as a part of a non-performing sub strategy.

[jeemak]

BT, what is it about the subbing of Gia that you think isn't working. You've mentioned coaching, restrictions and predictability but those to me are a little bit intangible and probably can't form the basis of using Gia as the sub most weeks as being right or wrong.

Is there any measurement of sub player impact in AFL stats presently? It would be interesting to gauge Gia's output versus the other clubs sub players.

[Scorlibo]

Nope. Those numbers aren't special, and that over simplifies the whole (virtually) permanent sub thing, as to restrictions, predictability and coaching advantages we lose. It ain't working. If he's best 21 play him. If not, let Honeychurch and other young players learn from playing with him in real match conditions in the VFL. He's a club champion and should not have his legacy come to a part time sub player as a part of a non-performing sub strategy.

Can you speak a bit more to these coaching advantages? Do you mean that because it's predictable that we play him as the sub, opposition coaches during the week can prepare in how they want to match up on him? If so, shouldn't we judge that still on Gia's output? ie. Fremantle prepared for him and he still came on and played well. You can't keep on saying 'it ain't working' when... well, it is.

[1eyedog]

It's time to move on with Gia. What are we gaining by playing him every week?

On field coach?

[LostDoggy]

We'd be 2 and whatev's if Gia didn't supersub the Richmond game. Members would be struggling more, more pressures on the club. Sometimes you need that cool head to get you over the line. No issues for Gia playing the year out as Macca see's fit frankly.

[G-Mo77]

Great work from the MC, must have sat down for hours and nutted that one move out.

[G-Mo77]

If Grant pulls out sore, we could conceivably play the same side... I'm going to watch, but I'm not looking forward to it.

Neither am I, kind of upset about the changes to be honest. I love Grant is back but I can't see how he's going to benefit getting a better or the best defender taking him in his first game. Should have had Jones return or given Redpath a shot. It would taken some heat away from Grant and Crameri.

We got within 40 points of a finals side. Why are the MC and Coach patting themselves on the back and not doing a dam thing to improve this? I don't know? I must watch a different game.

[Mantis]

Great work from the MC, must have sat down for hours and nutted that one move out.

It feels a bit like this doesn't it... They probably spent 2 or 3 hours moving names around the white-board and then just did went for the easy choice.

Blowtorch will be applied if we don't perform this week.

[LostDoggy]

Gia is contributing well as the sub. Who would people rather? Honeychurch? Hunter? Bonts? Tutt?

If one of the above played sub and struggled to make any impact how does it help there development? I would much prefer these guys keep playing full matches whether it's VFL or AFL.

Gia coming on as sub is the least of our issues at the moment.

[bornadog]

Really need a full forward that can grab a mark. Would have loved to have seen Redpath in this week as well as Grant who plays more a small forward role.

[Happy Days]

Gia being the sub is so far down the list of biggest concerns right now. As long as it's not one of our...good? players then I really don't care who it is. As per Hunter not getting a game has he really earned one this season? If we're in player development mode I'd be more annoyed about Stringer and Talia not playing than Hunter.

Howard playing is dumb and JJ should be in the team.

At least the change they did make allowed the current best player in the AFL back in the side.

[Ozza]

Can't remember who handballed it to him, but should have gone towards the ball but just stood there and Freo player spoilt the handball. Personally I thought he should have gone in hard but seemed to lazy or something.

That was right in front of me. I recall discussing it at the time. My view of it was that Tutt had his momentum going backwards immediately before this as he was preparing to spread from where he was - there was an extra short handball to Bontempelli which meant by the time the ball came to Tutt didn't have that extra split second to change momentum and go forward towards the ball. It was just unfortunate timing.

[bulldogtragic]

Can you speak a bit more to these coaching advantages? Do you mean that because it's predictable that we play him as the sub, opposition coaches during the week can prepare in how they want to match up on him? If so, shouldn't we judge that still on Gia's output? ie. Fremantle prepared for him and he still came on and played well. You can't keep on saying 'it ain't working' when... well, it is.

Please refer to the thread about Gia' last season thread, the one with the poll attached, as I've made several long contributions beyond a simplistic 'it ain't working' and there's no point running two threads on the same issue. That said, as a synopsis of others and my thoughts from that thread, it ain't working.

[Ozza]

BT, what is it about the subbing of Gia that you think isn't working. You've mentioned coaching, restrictions and predictability but those to me are a little bit intangible and probably can't form the basis of using Gia as the sub most weeks as being right or wrong.

Is there any measurement of sub player impact in AFL stats presently? It would be interesting to gauge Gia's output versus the other clubs sub players.

Agree with this completely.

I have no issue with people saying that Gia shouldn't play - if its in reference to him being a veteran player rather than a developing one. In fact, I would probably have him playing VFL this week in order to get a JJ, Jones or Stringer in the side.

But I don't think you can say that on merits - having Gia as the sub is not working. He comes on and kicks 1-2 goals every week. Gia has been, if not the best, at least in the top handful of players in the league at playing as the sub - which has been a very difficult role for young players to perform (just due to it being difficult to insert yourself into a game that late and know how to make an impact).

[bulldogtragic]

I've bumped the last season Gia thread FYI.

I think we need to focus on the changes, or lack of them, beyond a Gia focus.

[LostDoggy]

Personally I am happy with the team this week. Howard deserves more than 1 week at it, and I don't think his performance was as diabolical as some here suggest. The team worked hard last week, sure we were well beaten, but the effort deserved the coach backing them in for another week. People have been bleating about selecting Grant over the last fortnight then when he gets selected complain that we don't have Redpath in the side, or more wholesale changes. There just seems to be a lot of negativity about every move, every selection, every fringe player. There is no patience, no faith and it has become relentless. How about backing the team in this week boys?

[SlimPickens]

Personally I am happy with the team this week. Howard deserves more than 1 week at it, and I don't think his performance was as diabolical as some here suggest. The team worked hard last week, sure we were well beaten, but the effort deserved the coach backing them in for another week. People have been bleating about selecting Grant over the last fortnight then when he gets selected complain that we don't have Redpath in the side, or more wholesale changes. There just seems to be a lot of negativity about every move, every selection, every fringe player. There is no patience, no faith and it has become relentless. How about backing the team in this week boys?

I'm with you. Didn't expect major changes with the VFL players having a bye the week before. Would have like Jones in but no concerned he missed out. Boyd missing out is interesting as I figured his injury wasn't too bad.

[LostDoggy]

At some stage I would like to see what the match committee believes is our ideal forward line for now and the future. I cannot seem to grasp it as we keep on tinkering. Yes Grant has been out injured and Jones was suspended for two but besides that we seem to have been all over the place.

[Scorlibo]

Personally I am happy with the team this week. Howard deserves more than 1 week at it, and I don't think his performance was as diabolical as some here suggest. The team worked hard last week, sure we were well beaten, but the effort deserved the coach backing them in for another week. People have been bleating about selecting Grant over the last fortnight then when he gets selected complain that we don't have Redpath in the side, or more wholesale changes. There just seems to be a lot of negativity about every move, every selection, every fringe player. There is no patience, no faith and it has become relentless. How about backing the team in this week boys?

Right on.

[Remi Moses]

Having slept on it I think it's viable that Christian deserves more time.
Let's be honest he has half a season to prove himself.
Would have liked another tall up forward to stretch Bris Vegas, and looking at the teams Merrett will play forward .
Did some real damage two seasons ago I recall

[Scorlibo]

Please refer to the thread about Gia' last season thread, the one with the poll attached, as I've made several long contributions beyond a simplistic 'it ain't working' and there's no point running two threads on the same issue. That said, as a synopsis of others and my thoughts from that thread, it ain't working.

You mean the poll in which 40/45 posters have voted for either:

'Play him only as his form allows' or
'Continue to use him primarily as a sub' or
'Stick to the original plan for now'?

Because that would suggest 89% of posters would be playing him this week.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Personally I am happy with the team this week. Howard deserves more than 1 week at it, and I don't think his performance was as diabolical as some here suggest. The team worked hard last week, sure we were well beaten, but the effort deserved the coach backing them in for another week. People have been bleating about selecting Grant over the last fortnight then when he gets selected complain that we don't have Redpath in the side, or more wholesale changes. There just seems to be a lot of negativity about every move, every selection, every fringe player. There is no patience, no faith and it has become relentless. How about backing the team in this week boys?

Great post. Time pressure restricts my ability to post much these days, but I too have noticed that the frustration of many supporters has of late seen the dialogue take on a very unbalanced view with regard to everything the club does.
I'm not suggesting we all need to become a bunch of happy clappers, but it would be nice to see more measured evaluation and not an automatic presumption that every decision that Macca and Co make is proof positive that they have no idea.

[bulldogtragic]

You mean the poll in which 40/45 posters have voted for either:

'Play him only as his form allows' or
'Continue to use him primarily as a sub' or
'Stick to the original plan for now'?

Because that would suggest 89% of posters would be playing him this week.

So every woof poll is correct, despite the people having constructive comment making same? Man, if that's your best defence of a flawed policy... That's like sourcing Wikipedia in an academic document.

[Scorlibo]

So every woof poll is correct, despite the people having constructive comment making same? Man, if that's your best defence of a flawed policy... That's like sourcing Wikipedia in an academic document.

Wikipedia? What are you talking about?

You referred me to that thread, BT, with the assurance: 'as a synopsis of others and my thoughts from that thread, it ain't working'. Assuming that the poll is a pretty accurate synopsis, the overwhelming majority of posters voted against 'it ain't working'. So my post is a response to you trying to create this inferred hysteria about Gia's playing future when it's not actually there.

That in itself, as I think you're suggesting, doesn't prove anything except that you're in the minority. But the evidence is there for all to see. In the last match, Gia gathered 11 possessions and an equal-game high 3 score assists 1. You say that this is nothing special, well it's nothing to sneeze at either. There's barely been a game that he's been sub where he hasn't had an impact in one way or another. Is there any way that you can justify your assertion that we are at a disadvantage strategically? (ie. it's not supported on the basis of Gia's output, so you have to be able to identify where we're losing out once Gia comes on, and that you're not jumping at shadows).

1. "Western Bulldogs v Fremantle," News Limited, last modified 1 June 2014, <http://live-footy.heraldsun.com.au/StatsCentre/Index/20141120140141107>.

[bulldogtragic]

Wikipedia? What are you talking about?

You referred me to that thread, BT, with the assurance: 'as a synopsis of others and my thoughts from that thread, it ain't working'. Assuming that the poll is a pretty accurate synopsis, the overwhelming majority of posters voted against 'it ain't working'. So my post is a response to you trying to create this inferred hysteria about Gia's playing future when it's not actually there.

That in itself, as I think you're suggesting, doesn't prove anything except that you're in the minority. But the evidence is there for all to see. In the last match, Gia gathered 11 possessions and an equal-game high 3 score assists 1. You say that this is nothing special, well it's nothing to sneeze at either. There's barely been a game that he's been sub where he hasn't had an impact in one way or another. Is there any way that you can justify your assertion that we are at a disadvantage strategically? (ie. it's not supported on the basis of Gia's output, so you have to be able to identify where we're losing out once Gia comes on, and that you're not jumping at shadows).

1. "Western Bulldogs v Fremantle," News Limited, last modified 1 June 2014, <http://live-footy.heraldsun.com.au/StatsCentre/Index/20141120140141107>.

Last time.... I said this discussion is occurring elsewhere and instead of talking about this over multiple threads maybe we just do it that one. I wasn't sourcing or basing that comment on anything. Having multiple threads having conversations about the same thing is double handling everything and takes away the intent of this thread. That said, Neither of us will convince each other. But clearly the other thread shows some people agree with you, and some people agree with me.

As I said over there, if we gave Dave Rodan or Aaron Davey from Melbourne a one year deal, and this conversation wasn't about a club champion subbing, I'm not sure this conversation would occur.

Again, perhaps we can discuss this over there and you can respond to the different thoughts of the people who have added comment specifically on this issue.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Our Tex Walker is back in this week. He will rejuvenate our attack. Grant and Williams will combine for at least four goals, if not this week, within the month and thereafter, the sky is the limit.