Simon Dalrymple Performance Analysis

[The Doctor]

Many argue that the job of the recruiting manager is the most important in the AFL. Unless I'm mistaken, all clubs expect, the person in charge of their recruiting has the job of delivering to the club players that will eventually win them a premiership.

Let's turn the spotlight on Simon Dalrymple, Recruiting Manager, of the Western Bulldogs. How well has he performed in his 5 years in this role at the club and whether he has delivered players that will form the nucleus of a premiership winning team. Surely that is enough time to decide whether his selections earn him an appraisal that warrants his retention in this critical role or not.

The following are Simon Dalrymple's selections at each respective draft since his appointment;

Father/Sons
Mitchell Wallis (pick 22, 2010)
Thomas Liberatore (41/2010)
Lachlan Hunter (49/2012)

I have intentionally highlighted & excluded father/sons from the following analysis as they are players we have had first access to. PLayers we have been able to monitor, access exclusively to other clubs (or as some say gifted to us) and form decisions well in advance of their recruitment.

The following focus's on Simon Dalrymple's live selections ;

In total

34 selections - 18 National Draft selections, 1 pre season draft selection & 15 rookie draft selections

2009 National Draft
15. Christian Howard
31. Jason Tutt
63. Lukas Markovic
76. Shane Thorne

Rookies
19. Brodie Moles
35. Andrew Hooper
48. Matthew Panos
59. Eddie Prato
68. Patrick Rose

2010 National Draft
74. Jayden Schofield
88. Zephaniah Skinner
89. Tom Hill

Rookies
22. Luke Dahlhaus
39. Jason Johannisen
55. Ed Barlow
70. Mitch Hahn

2011 National Draft
17. Clay Smith
39. Michael Talia
49. Daniel Pearce
57. Tory Dickson

Pre-Season Draft
11. Fletcher Roberts

Rookies
9. Lin Jong
27. Tom Campbell
45. Alex Greenwood
62. Jack Redpath
76. Mark Austin

2012 National Draft
5. Jake Stringer
6. Jackson Macrae
21. Nathan Hrovat
50. Joshua Prudden

Rookies
4. Brett Goodes

2013 National Draft
4. Marcus Bontempelli
42. Matthew Fuller
60. Mitch Honeychurch


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In the following discussion I would like to ackowledge the following;

Some selections, to my knowledge, may have been influenced by coaches (Eade or Macartney). Possibly including but not limited to;

RD 70. Mitch Hahn
ND 57. Tory Dickson
RD 27. Tom Campbell
RD 62. Jack Redpath
RD 4. Brett Goodes

Whether or not these players were recruited at the request of the coach or someone else in the football dept, the Recruiting Manager has the responsibility to argue the case, for or against, based on the players options he has to chose instead.
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Key Observations

* From the 09/10 drafts only 4 of 16 players remain listed, these are; Howard, Tutt, Dahlhaus & Johannisen.

- Only 1, Dahlhaus has established himself as a regular AFL player

- Only 1 player (Tutt) in the 2 national drafts was chosen from the elite national pathway. And he was from the 2nd tier competition.

- 3 of these are midgets (180cm or below) & 1 suburban footballer (Howard)

- Howard was chosen in the first round, ahead of players who were proven elite players recognised in the elite national pathway, including; Ben Griffiths, Nat Fyfe, Ryan Bastinac, Jake Carlisle, Aaron Black, Mitch Duncan, Jack Gunston, all proven players through the elite national pathway and/or state leagues

- Tutt was chosen ahead of others in the National Draft (ND) OR rookie draft (RD) including; Sam Reid, Allen Christensen, Nat Vardy, Ben Stratton, Jake Fitzpatrick, Taylor Duryea, Ben Howlett, Matthew Wright, Stewart Crameri, Levi Casboult, Matthew Jaensch, James Podsiadly,

Questions - On what basis was Howard chosen as the 15th best player in the country when he was deemed not good enough to play for his state at u/18 level, nor invited to the ND camp. or State camp?
- On what basis was Howard chosen ahead of even Tutt?
- On what basis was Schofield, Skinner and Hill chosen ahead of Dahlhaus when Dahlhaus was an excellent player for Vic country at u/18 level and the others did not play rep football that year.

* An inability to select Small Defenders – 8 have been chosen. These include; Howard, Tutt, Schofield, Johannisen, Pearce, Jong, Goodes, Fuller.

- None have established themselves as an AFL player

- Current mainstay small defenders in the team are Picken, Murphy, Wood, Higgins. All recruited previously

* Midgets 10 in total - Tutt, Hooper, Schofield, Dahlhaus, Johannisen, Pearce, Greenwood, Fuller, Hrovat, Honeychurch

Here is some interesting information;
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/size-matters-at-afl-level/story-e6frf9jf-1226650225771


* State League Recruits – 14 in total; Lukas Markovic, Shane Thorne, Brodie Moles, Eddie Prato, Pat Rose, Zeph Skinner, Ed Barlow, Mitch Hahn, Tory Dickson, Tom Campbell, Jack Redpath, Mark Austin, Brett Goodes, Matthew Fuller

- It is likely that all 14 will not make it as good AFL players

- Between the State League Recruits and the Midgets 23 out of 34 have been recruited almost 75% of Dalrymples recruits yet very few are likely to mske it as an AFL player

* Inability to Select Key Position Players;

- Only 4 Key forwards selected overall; Panos, Hill, Redpath & Roberts.
- Only key forward selected in the ND, Tom Hill at pick 89. Then 1 in the PSD & 2 in the RD.
- Only 2 ruckmen selected overall and both in the rookie draft (Prato & Campbell)
- Prato, a former basketballer, had hardly played any competitive football
- Only 1 key defender chosen (Talia) inside first 3 rounds of ND.
- Ovarall in 5 years only 1 KP player chosen in the first 2 rounds of the ND

- Current KP's Minson, Morris, Roughead all recruited previously with, aside from Talia, Jones and Cordy the next in line option

Other Observations

- No Players with genuine pace have made it
- No players with elite kicking skill have made it
- Since Mcartney became coach emphasis on the 1st round selections on larger midfield capable types (Smith, Stringer, Macrae, Bontempelli)
- Limited use of rookie list in Macartney era

I could add more but it's 3am and I've worried enough about the Dogs for one night. Make up your own mind about whether Simon Dalrymple will recruit the players the Bulldogs need to win a premierhip. I have.

[Remi Moses]

How can you possibly make any judgements on drafts that have been murdered by the two franchise teams?
There's some hits, and some misses . We need speed, we need forwards.
I've said my bit on the list having to many one paced same types.

[Remi Moses]

Also what has to be taken into account is what money has been spent in the recruiting dept.
I know they've beefed it up ( absolute necessity) got Neville Stibbard ( Norf recruiter) on board
2009 was a stinker ( Howard) but to be honest we haven't had a level playing field with the two franchises and finances in recruiting

[Topdog]

But our problems haven't been because of the new teams coming in, they have been because we have made ridiculous picks. Howard is still just a staggeringly stupid pick.

2011 doesn't appear to be much better at this stage and I still heavily question the Clay Smith pick.

I think he nailed the 2012 draft to be fair.

[soupman]

Interestingly if I am correct since BMac's arrival there has been a distinct change in where we get the players from.

Of the 18 players we have recruited in that time (excludes f/s) only 1, Matthew Fuller has been from an interstate club. There has been a far greater emphasis on recruiting good guys, from Victorian clubs, with a mixture of mature age and under 18 experience.
Completely contrary to many of Dalrymple's first two drafts nearly everyone has come through an established talent pathway or has played multiple games in the VFL.

I wonder if our scouting resources were redirected so instead of trying to cover the whole country (and try and snag an unknown like Skinner or Thorne) we are just playing the percentages and have decided that since Victoria produces so much talent, has no go home factor and is best located for scouts who can regularly meet up with the team out of our Melbourne base that we are best served putting the vast majority of our scouts in this state.

[GVGjr]

Great write Doc, appreciated.

The draft selections haven't been terrific but they have been saved by some good rookie list picks

- Moles, Hooper and Panos all got upgraded from 2009 but all are now gone
- Dahlhaus and Johannisen from 2010 and are going well. Barlow is no longer at the club
- Jong, Austin and Campbell from 2011 with mixed success.

Being the recruiting manager is often about compromise and the directions you are under and I think Dalrymple has had a few masters to serve. From Eade and his coaching team wanting players with quick in the air kicking skills and subsequently selecting Howard and Tutt to Macca wanting a cracking in player like Smith.

The concerns I have are more around the later selections. Thorne, Skinner and Schofield weren't good selections but I'm confident that Honeychurch will.

As others have pointed out, the new sides have clouded a few things and have certainly made the job more difficult but the thing I struggle with is that we seem to have gone away from the best player available selections that seem to serve most clubs well to a more short term needs based focus.

Dalrymple needs to be judged more on the last 3 years than the previous 3. Time will tell how successful he has been.

[bornadog]

Fantastic write up and analysis Doc.

One other factor to look at when accessing recruiters is the pick number they have which of course relates to where you finish on the ladder. The last couple of years (and looking the same this year), we have finished near bottom and therefore giving us access to the first 5 or 6 in the draft. Often (and there are exceptions), its very difficult to go wrong. We picked Macrae and Stringer but could easily have had Ollie Wines.

The one thing I haven't been happy with is the lack of picking KPPs and the attempt at the state leagues, but then again, maybe the talent pool has been too far spread with 18 teams and there just hasn't been the players available.

Overall, for me the jury is still out on Simon.

[azabob]

But our problems haven't been because of the new teams coming in, they have been because we have made ridiculous picks. Howard is still just a staggeringly stupid pick.

2011 doesn't appear to be much better at this stage and I still heavily question the Clay Smith pick.

I think he nailed the 2012 draft to be fair.

2011 was not a strong draft. After Clay Smith was selected I think you could make cases for two players only. It was also established that the coach wanted a hard body inside midfielder - not Crozier or Hill who are more outside players.

[boydogs]

Who-ward is the only pick in the first 2 rounds unlikely to make it. Wallis & Liberatore were no brainers but he deserves some credit for Hunter

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Great thread Doctor.
The recruiting is one side of the equation, and it doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. Player development is the other factor and there is an article in the Hun today that indicates that due to financial issues we did not invest in this between 2007-09, and that really only now are we addressing this.

[Mofra]

If anything, it shows he started abysmally and has been improving every draft since then.
I don't quite get the Bonti love others do but I can understand the selection - you just get glimpses.

If anything, it's not some much "big bodied mids" taken under B-Mac's tenure, it's players who are "finals types" which is an overwhelming emphasis since B-Mac took over. The Smith selection at least is one we know B-Mac had a huge influence in, wanting a contested ball beast.

Will be interesting how the upcoming draft is handled, knowing there are holes all through the list - the trade period could be just as interesting.

[LostDoggy]

Who-ward is the only pick in the first 2 rounds unlikely to make it. Wallis & Liberatore were no brainers but he deserves some credit for Hunter
How does he deserve reward for picking a father son?

[bulldogtragic]

Gee whiz thanks Doc, that looks like hours of research. Thanks Doc.

[bornadog]

If anything, it shows he started abysmally and has been improving every draft since then. .

I don't agree, the last two drafst we had picks in the top 5, anyone can look good.


I don't quite get the Bonti love others do but I can understand the selection - you just get glimpses.

This kid will be a star. Some of his work was fantastic on Saturday and he is still 18 years old.


If anything, it's not some much "big bodied mids" taken under B-Mac's tenure, it's players who are "finals types" which is an overwhelming emphasis since B-Mac took over.

Like who? We need KPPs not just mids

[azabob]

How does he deserve reward for picking a father son?

He doesn't. But I don't think he should be marked as a fail for that draft either just because we had two father / son picks.

The 3 picks 74 onwards were very slim odds of making it. A strong case could be mounted for Schofield making it, but he couldn't cope with the riggers of league football.

[azabob]

I don't agree, the last two drafst we had picks in the top 5, anyone can look good.



This kid will be a star. Some of his work was fantastic on Saturday and he is still 18 years old.



Like who? We need KPPs not just mids

Top six picks - Farren Ray, Mitch Thorpe, Tim Walsh, Tom Scully, Jack Trengrove, Jarrod Grant, Matthew Kruzeir, Cale Morton, Chris Maisten all say hello. Those are just the ones off the top of my head.

Who are the potential KPP stars of the comp that are not at GWS or GCS that we could have drafted?

[boydogs]

How does he deserve reward for picking a father son?

You don't have to pick someone just because they are F/S eligible. Wallis & Libba were universally rated in the top 20 so were easy selections at 22 & 41, Hunter however was no certainty to make it hence why he went at 49

[Topdog]

first 5 or 6 in the draft. Often (and there are exceptions), its very difficult to go wrong. We picked Macrae and Stringer but could easily have had Ollie Wines.
.

I'm not sure I'd pick Ollie above either of them long term to be honest.


r. The Smith selection at least is one we know B-Mac had a huge influence in, wanting a contested ball beast.
.

True and not much went after Smith so I was a bit harsh earlier on

[bornadog]

Top six picks - Farren Ray, Mitch Thorpe, Tim Walsh, Tom Scully, Jack Trengrove, Jarrod Grant, Matthew Kruzeir, Cale Morton, Chris Maisten all say hello. Those are just the ones off the top of my head.

Who are the potential KPP stars of the comp that are not at GWS or GCS that we could have drafted?

Nothing wrong with Farren Ray, has played 180 plus games of AFL, Grant will be good, Scully is fine, Kruzer doing well, Masten has played 100 games, Trengrove still only 22. So only fails there are Thorpe and Walsh

[Topdog]

Grant may be OK, Scully is a tagger which really shouldnt come in the top 6 picks, Kruzer is good but always injured, Masten is a pretty big disappointment.

I dont want someone that just plays 100 games in the top 6 picks. I want a match winner.

[F'scary]

Doctor! Doctor! It is not too late to get into your TARDIS and go back to change history.

Instead of Howard, from the same draft we could have picked...Koby Stevens.

[Mofra]

I don't agree, the last two drafst we had picks in the top 5, anyone can look good.
... anyone except Scott Clayton. e.g. Tim Walsh.



This kid will be a star. Some of his work was fantastic on Saturday and he is still 18 years old.
I hope so but am on the fence - he will at least become a best 22 player.


Like who? We need KPPs not just mids
Yes, but you also need mids. We have been pretty set on building "from the inside out" and the drafting, for better or worse, appears to reflect that strategy.
The mids that have been selected are hardly Jordan McMahon types.

[Remi Moses]

But our problems haven't been because of the new teams coming in, they have been because we have made ridiculous picks. Howard is still just a staggeringly stupid pick.

2011 doesn't appear to be much better at this stage and I still heavily question the Clay Smith pick.

I think he nailed the 2012 draft to be fair.

You couldn't say that the compromised drafts haven't muddied the recruiting waters. He's had a few howlers, ( Howard) but he should be praised for Dahlhaus. The talent pool is extremely thin with the 18 teams.

[Remi Moses]

But our problems haven't been because of the new teams coming in, they have been because we have made ridiculous picks. Howard is still just a staggeringly stupid pick.

2011 doesn't appear to be much better at this stage and I still heavily question the Clay Smith pick.

I think he nailed the 2012 draft to be fair.

Who would you have at pick 17 in 2011?
We linked with Crozier( hasn't done anything) Kavanagh( done nothing)

[Sedat]

I think we selected well with our first 2 choices in the 2012 ND but the next 4 live selections have shown just as much talent as our guys - Wines, Mayes, Vlaustin and Menzel

[Scorlibo]

I think we selected well with our first 2 choices in the 2012 ND but the next 4 live selections have shown just as much talent as our guys - Wines, Mayes, Vlaustin and Menzel

Yep, what a great draft it looks like being. I reckon Mayes could be the best of the lot.

[Topdog]

Who would you have at pick 17 in 2011?
We linked with Crozier( hasn't done anything) Kavanagh( done nothing)

I mentioned later that considering who was picked next my judgement was harsh.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Thanks for the analysis Doc.

Makes for interesting reading. Jury is still out on Simon, but he certainly started extremely poorly and that draft alone has set us back quite a bit.

On Bonti: he will be a very good player, but my concern at the time was that he was too similar to Macrae and given our needs, didn't help us address these issues.

[Scorlibo]

On Bonti: he will be a very good player, but my concern at the time was that he was too similar to Macrae and given our needs, didn't help us address these issues.

What I like about Bontempelli and what sets him apart from Jack Macrae is that he has a penetrating style of play. Jack can dodge, run sideways to find space and hit up targets 25 metres up field - valuable when he does it consistently - but Marcus, when he gets up and going, should be an 80 metre player. Someone who can bust a tackle, run 30 metres and use his booming kick to hit long targets. This is something our side desperately needs.

[Remi Moses]

What I like about Bontempelli and what sets him apart from Jack Macrae is that he has a penetrating style of play. Jack can dodge, run sideways to find space and hit up targets 25 metres up field - valuable when he does it consistently - but Marcus, when he gets up and going, should be an 80 metre player. Someone who can bust a tackle, run 30 metres and use his booming kick to hit long targets. This is something our side desperately needs.

Complete different player than Macrae. Once he gets a tank and stronger he'll be a weapon also with his hands. I think Jack has to improve his kicking over 25 metres, but Marcus looks like he has a booming left peg.

[Remi Moses]

I mentioned later that considering who was picked next my judgement was harsh.

Didn't Kavanagh's old man warn Norf he wouldn't go there.
Worked out well for the lad

[Mantis]

What I like about Bontempelli and what sets him apart from Jack Macrae is that he has a penetrating style of play. Jack can dodge, run sideways to find space and hit up targets 25 metres up field - valuable when he does it consistently - but Marcus, when he gets up and going, should be an 80 metre player. Someone who can bust a tackle, run 30 metres and use his booming kick to hit long targets. This is something our side desperately needs.

Does he have the pace to do this? ie. break-away pace like Griffen has.

[Scorlibo]

Does he have the pace to do this? ie. break-away pace like Griffen has.

I think he has the same kind of deceptive pace that Easton Wood has, although admittedly that hasn't shown through at AFL level yet.

[Mofra]

I think he has the same kind of deceptive pace that Easton Wood has, although admittedly that hasn't shown through at AFL level yet.
He was in the bottom 10% at draft camp for acceleration. I don't think he's anything like Griffen.

His top line speed is ok, but how often does an inside mid get to receive the ball when running at top pace?

I like the kid, but I'm nowhere near as excited as I was in Macrae's first year

[Cyberdoggie]

Don't forget Bonts is a key forward sized player in the guise of a midfielder.

We seem to be prepared to wait for Cordy to develop 5+ years later but year one on Bonts we are comparing him to midfielders.

I agree he's not a burst player due to his size and lack of acceleration. I'm still not sure what sort of player he will be but I think it was a worth the risk compared to a player like Aish.

KK could well end up being a superstar but let's give Bonts a few years and time to fill out his physique.


Sometimes you can get it completely wrong, I think all of us would agree Bonts looks like he'll be a decent footballer. He has shown he can dominate a game at VFL level, He has elite handballing skills even at AFL level and doesn't seem like he has mental self confidence issues like Howard.

[Mofra]

Sometimes you can get it completely wrong, I think all of us would agree Bonts looks like he'll be a decent footballer. He has shown he can dominate a game at VFL level, He has elite handballing skills even at AFL level and doesn't seem like he has mental self confidence issues like Howard.
Nobody is writing him off, he will play many games of good football for us but we all see different things in different players and for mine Macrae will be a superstar. Absolute superstar.
It's not unreasonable to suggest it will be hard for other kids to get to that level, because it's extremely difficult.

[westdog54]

Doctor! Doctor! It is not too late to get into your TARDIS and go back to change history.

Instead of Howard, from the same draft we could have picked...Koby Stevens.

You just can't help yourself, can you? :rolleyes:


Nobody is writing him off, he will play many games of good football for us but we all see different things in different players and for mine Macrae will be a superstar. Absolute superstar.
It's not unreasonable to suggest it will be hard for other kids to get to that level, because it's extremely difficult.

I love how composed Bonts is, even so early on hin his career. Looks like he belongs at the top level already which is well above what I expected from him.

There is always pressure on the top draftees to make an immediate impact, but lets not forget that Pat Dangerfield was drafted with the knowledge that he wouldn't play at all the next year while he finished his education. Adleaide were rubbished for it in their local press but they've had the last laugh on that. Patience, patience, patience.

[The Doctor]

How can you possibly make any judgements on drafts that have been murdered by the two franchise teams?


You make the judgements on the players Dalrymple chose at the club's expense of those he didn't. Hindsight arguments don't come into it when you chose speculative types (Howard, Skinner) from state leagues in their respective drafts ahead of proven elite junior players (Fyfe, Dahlhaus) that are presented to all clubs at the National draft camp/combine.

I agree with you about too many one paced types. Dalrymple has had opportunities to address this but has either picked the wrong player (Tutt) or passed on the opportunity (e.g. Goodes instead of Sam Dwyer). Dwyer incidently tore Howard a new one in the VFL GF a few years ago. Funny how Colllingwood in a less privileged draft position get a better result than us. But in Dalrymple's defence this may have been a coach/club directive.

[The Doctor]

Also what has to be taken into account is what money has been spent in the recruiting dept.
I know they've beefed it up ( absolute necessity) got Neville Stibbard ( Norf recruiter) on board
2009 was a stinker ( Howard) but to be honest we haven't had a level playing field with the two franchises and finances in recruiting

In the instance of Dalrymple's first 2 drafts money has nothing to do with it but common sense does. In the national drafts of 09/10 he chose duds from state leagues at the expense of the best juniors in the country. There is no excuse for this. The best juniors are easily on show throughout the year via the state u/18 champs, the TAC, the respective state and national draft camps etc that even a 15 year old Bigfooty draft expert could have picked a better outcome.

We wasted money on sending all our experts to the national draft camps in those 2 years because we wasted our picks on state league duds.

Again the excuse of the new franchises doesn't stack up in this instance. If it is used it is a cop out.

[The Doctor]

2011 doesn't appear to be much better at this stage and I still heavily question the Clay Smith pick.

I think he nailed the 2012 draft to be fair.

TD, I think Smith was a good pick. I was doubtful at the time but if it wasn't for injury he could well be a Doggie favourite.

[The Doctor]

Dalrymple needs to be judged more on the last 3 years than the previous 3. Time will tell how successful he has been.

G, he needs to be judged on the lot and enough time has passed for us to tell whether or not he is the man for job.

[The Doctor]

Great thread Doctor.
The recruiting is one side of the equation, and it doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. Player development is the other factor and there is an article in the Hun today that indicates that due to financial issues we did not invest in this between 2007-09, and that really only now are we addressing this.

Good call here YHF

Player development can make all the difference. Hypothetically, just imagine we chose Grundy instead of Stringer. Would he, under our current regime, have developed as well as he has at Collingwood. At the Pies he was deemed good enough to knock out a premiership ruckman (Jolly) after only 1 season, yet ruckmen are supposed to take forever. Would he have progressed so quickly at the Dogs?

[The Doctor]

YHe's had a few howlers, ( Howard) but he should be praised for Dahlhaus.

I disagree with this and it has nothing to do with Dahlhaus as a player.

In his draft year I thought Dahl was worthy of a 2/3 round National Draft pick. He slipped through to pick 22 in the rookie draft so good luck to the Dogs.

The issue I have with Dalrymple, as I alluded to in my opening post, is why did he chose Schofield, Skinner and Hill ahead of him. None of the 3 played rep footy that year or played it well like Dahl did and were more likely to be higher risk selections. Dalrymple got lucky in this instance and that luck has helped paper over the cracks of his judgement failures (just like having Wallis and Libba on his credit scorecard have).

Having said all that I will offer some acknowledgement that Johannisen, picked later in the rookie draft, was a good get as he was relatively unheralded and has probably exceeded expectation for someone drafted in his position.

[boydogs]

The issue I have with Dalrymple, as I alluded to in my opening post, is why did he chose Schofield, Skinner and Hill ahead of him.

You're not doing your argument any favours with the Dahlhaus example. Dahlhaus was overlooked by all other recruiters as well, and in fact we were the ones that rated him highest. Dalrymple may have known this and therefore didn't use an earlier pick on him. Dahlhaus also isn't the same player type as the other 3 - name another KPF we could have chosen over Tom Hill for instance that had a better pedigree

[Remi Moses]

I disagree with this and it has nothing to do with Dahlhaus as a player.

In his draft year I thought Dahl was worthy of a 2/3 round National Draft pick. He slipped through to pick 22 in the rookie draft so good luck to the Dogs.

The issue I have with Dalrymple, as I alluded to in my opening post, is why did he chose Schofield, Skinner and Hill ahead of him. None of the 3 played rep footy that year or played it well like Dahl did and were more likely to be higher risk selections. Dalrymple got lucky in this instance and that luck has helped paper over the cracks of his judgement failures (just like having Wallis and Libba on his credit scorecard have).

Having said all that I will offer some acknowledgement that Johannisen, picked later in the rookie draft, was a good get as he was relatively unheralded and has probably exceeded expectation for someone drafted in his position.
So you can him for his dud selections, but Dahlhaus (after every club REJECTED him in the national draft)doesn't deserve a tick for picking him. Can't have it both ways

[Remi Moses]

You're not doing your argument any favours with the Dahlhaus example. Dahlhaus was overlooked by all other recruiters as well, and in fact we were the ones that rated him highest. Dalrymple may have known this and therefore didn't use an earlier pick on him. Dahlhaus also isn't the same player type as the other 3 - name another KPF we could have chosen over Tom Hill for instance that had a better pedigree

Incredible really

[The Doctor]

So you can him for his dud selections, but Dahlhaus (after every club REJECTED him in the national draft)doesn't deserve a tick for picking him. Can't have it both ways

The fact remains he wasted 3 picks in the ND on duds who were not considered elite juniors, all ahead of Dahl who was. So he got lucky.

Had the 3 he chose ahead of Dahl become good AFL players or even say 2 out of 3 then I would be praising him for his judgement. But none did.

It doesn't matter what other clubs did. Dalrymple needs to be held to account for his actions as I'm sure other clubs hold their recruiting managers accountable for theirs.

I find it difficult to believe you would support someone who has a proven reputation for wasting precious draft picks. Incredible really.

[The Doctor]

You're not doing your argument any favours with the Dahlhaus example. Dahlhaus was overlooked by all other recruiters as well, and in fact we were the ones that rated him highest.

Yet rated him lower than Schofield, Skinner and Hill? Why is the question I am asking as a supporter but more importantly what any Bulldog Manager in authority should be asking him?

[Remi Moses]

The fact remains he wasted 3 picks in the ND on duds who were not considered elite juniors, all ahead of Dahl who was. So he got lucky.

Had the 3 he chose ahead of Dahl become good AFL players or even say 2 out of 3 then I would be praising him for his judgement. But none

It doesn't matter what other clubs did. Dalrymple needs to be held to account for his actions as I'm sure other clubs hold their recruiting managers accountable for theirs.

I find it difficult to believe you would support someone who has a proven reputation for wasting precious draft picks. Incredible really.

So you want him sacked . You want The coach sacked. Who's in your sights next ?
The property steward ? The boot studder?
You can't deny it's been difficult recruiting kids in very compromised drafts.
Somehow in your bizarro world, he's hopeless because of the 09 draft, yet picking up Dahlhaus he got "lucky"

[Remi Moses]

Yet rated him lower than Schofield, Skinner and Hill? Why is the question I am asking as a supporter but more importantly what any Bulldog Manager in authority should be asking him?

He wasn't rated worthy of a pick by any team in the comp??
Why don't you pose the same question of the other 16 recruiting chiefs who didn't think he was worthy of a pick

[bornadog]

He wasn't rated worthy of a pick by any team in the comp??
Why don't you pose the same question of the other 16 recruiting chiefs who didn't think he was worthy of a pick

As I recall, recruiters were all concerned about his kicking and with a lack of height thought it wasn't worth the risk to drfat him. At least we saw something and gave him a go as a rookie.

[Scorlibo]

He wasn't rated worthy of a pick by any team in the comp??
Why don't you pose the same question of the other 16 recruiting chiefs who didn't think he was worthy of a pick

The perfect response to a silly assertion. Dahlhaus was a great pick up, no doubt.

[LostDoggy]

Did a search on Dalrymple here and found this thread. Interesting comments and concerns on the list management back in 2010..

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?8470-Fantasia-and-Dalrymple&highlight=dalrymple

In my view aside from the Tutt Howard draft Dalrymple has been just okay without setting the world on fire.

Dalrymple's biggest error has been making reverse money ball selections ie taking school boy form as a great predictor and not placing enough emphasis on the national junior pathways and the state leagues. I think an analysis of statistics would show that like baseball in the US we should:

1 - Take proven performers at AFL level in areas of need with development to come; 2 - Take proven players from senior leagues (and the younger the better ie Aish); 3 - Take kids from proven development pathways; 4 - Take kids with mainly school boy backgrounds.

Its clear Dalrymple has not done this and our recruiting has suffered. It is borderline obscene that we have recruited a tiny guy like Honeychurch in a team stacked with smalls, and missed a Tom Langdon a brilliant hbf ball user, and gee look at the pathway..

"A medium defender/midfielder who came of age in 2013. His balance, game sense and ability to read the ball in flight give him a significant advantage when the ball is in the air. A strong overhead mark and fluent kick of the football on his preferred right foot, his ball use is smart and consistently finds its target. Played senior football for VFL club Sandringham for much of last season after being overlooked in the 2012 National Draft."

With the Carlton recruiting mess and some potential good recruiters out there perhaps we have an opportunity to refresh our recruiting. I am kind of hoping we do, whether Dalrymple stays, I am not fussed, but I am not keen for him to be having the final say. I think he gambles against the odds and will miss more than hit.

[azabob]

With the Carlton recruiting mess and some potential good recruiters out there perhaps we have an opportunity to refresh our recruiting. I am kind of hoping we do, whether Dalrymple stays, I am not fussed, but I am not keen for him to be having the final say. I think he gambles against the odds and will miss more than hit.

So out of interest why do you think Carlton are looking for new recriuters? Is it because they have nailed their draft selctions or stuffed them up?

Who are the other potential good recuiters out there?

[LostDoggy]

So out of interest why do you think Carlton are looking for new recriuters? Is it because they have nailed their draft selctions or stuffed them up?

Who are the other potential good recuiters out there?

According to Carro, Mathieson is looking http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/carlton-recruiting-boss-shane-rogers-ready-to-walk-out-20140610-zs3a3.html.

And according to many Carlton supporters Mathieson is a d*ck and their recruiter has done a good job for the last two years he was there, recruited Menzel and may have been involved in getting Docherty. Also Luke Williams left Carlton after being there a few months, he was part of Geelong's cracker programme. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/luke-williams-resigns-from-blues-recruiting-team-just-weeks-before-national-draft/story-fni5f5nx-1226764071150.

There's two without thinking too much.

But I would be looking at Collingwood, Hawthorn and Geelong recruiters or assistant recruiters.

[boydogs]

Yet rated him lower than Schofield, Skinner and Hill? Why is the question I am asking as a supporter but more importantly what any Bulldog Manager in authority should be asking him?

Dahlhaus is short and couldn't kick. If you want pedigree, look no further than Andrew Hooper

[The Underdog]

Dahlhaus is short and couldn't kick. If you want pedigree, look no further than Andrew Hooper

A player we upgraded to the senior list. Now that was a list management decision....

[mighty_west]

I've quickly whipped up a tally of selections of Simons time as our draft manager, the system I have come up with is quite simple, of each player to get a par score means that from right now, how each player would rate, as an example, Christian Howard was a first round selection, his performance is well below par, to the point a rookie selection would have been the correct selection, especially for being such a speculative pick, so a break even, he would score zero, meaning he has shown enough to be rated a first rounder, however as I have rated each pick, from 5 rounds of the main draft, plus rookie draft, I have him 5 points below, meaning Dalrymples score just from Howard alone is minus 5, a par is zero overall, anything below par would be seen as very good, or depending on the score above par, anything below, and you're not traveling so good.

On the flipside, Dahlhaus a rookie pick, I have rated a first round selection from his overall output to date, so going on only those two players alone, Scott gets back to ground zero, an even par score.

A par score overall of zero would be acceptable and spot on as an average to date with his overall draft score, meaning give or take, he's pretty much got them right, as an average.

I have taken out father sons, as they have picked themselves from other teams nominations, and the 2013 is far too early to judge at this stage imo.

1st round picks : Howard, Smith, Stringer, MaCrae, Hrovat

2nd round picks : Tutt, Talia, Pearce

3rd round picks : Dickson, Prudden

4th round picks : Markovic, Schofield

5th round picks : Thorne, Skinner, Tom Hill

Rookie Selections : Moles, Hooper, Panos, Prado, Rose, Dahlhaus, JJ, Barlow, Jong, Campbell, Greenwood, Redpath, Austin, Goodes.

The scoring system, 1st round is worth 6, 2nd 5, 3rd 4, 4th 3, 5th 2, rookie 1, as mentioned, Howard slides 5, Dahlhaus jumps 5, MacRae breaks even as a first round pick, he scores zero for Simon as he is showing signs as a first found pick.

How I rate them, others may have different opinions on certain players and how they should rate if they were selected today.

1st Rounders :
Howard [Rookie pick] -5
Smith [round 2] -1
Stringer [round 2] -1
MacRae [round 1] 0
Hrovat [round 2] -1

2nd rounders
Tutt [round 3] -1
Talia [Round 2] 0
Pearce [Rookie] -4

3rd rounders
Dickson [round 2] +1
Prudden [round 3] with injuries too early to call = 0

4th rounders
Markovic [Rookie] -2
Schofield [Rookie] -2

5th rounders
Thorne [Rookie] -1
Skinner [Rookie] -1
Tom Hill [Rookie] -1

Rookies :
Moles [Round 5] +1
Hooper [Rookie] 0
Panos [Rookie] 0
Prado [Rookie] 0
Rose [Rookie] 0
Dahlhaus [round 1] +5
JJ [round 2] +4
Barlow [Rookie] 0
Jong [round 4] +2
Campbell [round 4] +2
Greenwood [Rookie] 0
Redpath [Rookie] 0
Austin [Rookie] 0
Goodes [Rookie] 0

Overall score -5

Below par but nowhere near a disaster at this stage, from the 2013 draft Stringer & Hrovat could potentially jump up to being first rounders, but given their output , I see both as 2nd rounders at this stage.

[LostDoggy]

So you do reckon Dalrymple is just going okay without the setting the world on fire...:)

I reckon Macrae is better than par for a first rounder.

If you really wanted to analyse the performance, you would take the probability of a particular round selection playing x games in the relevant time period - but sounds a bit hard.

And if you really want to have a look at Dalrymple compare him to the best drafters, Hawks, Geelong and Collingwood, over the journey they have done far more with less. Its unproven yet but Collingwood - could well be awesome when we look back at their list management and drafting in the last few years - Scharenberg, Adams, Grundy, Langdon, Elliot, wow.

[bornadog]

So you do reckon Dalrymple is just going okay without the setting the world on fire...:)

I reckon Macrae is better than par for a first rounder.

If you really wanted to analyse the performance, you would take the probability of a particular round selection playing x games in the relevant time period - but sounds a bit hard.

And if you really want to have a look at Dalrymple compare him to the best drafters, Hawks, Geelong and Collingwood, over the journey they have done far more with less. Its unproven yet but Collingwood - could well be awesome when we look back at their list management and drafting in the last few years - Scharenberg, Adams, Grundy, Langdon, Elliot, wow.

The other difference is we do it with limited resources. Collingwood have something like 5 full time recruiters running around the country.

What we are doing now is trying to use technology to first assess players, like YouTube clips of players, games etc from around the country and from various leagues. From here we can then assess whether its worth following a player.

[Mofra]

-4 for a rookie pick who has at least debuted (Pearce)?

I don't see as much in Pearce as others do, but it seems like a harsh -4

[Greystache]

-4 for a rookie pick who has at least debuted (Pearce)?

I don't see as much in Pearce as others do, but it seems like a harsh -4

When did Pearce become a rookie?

He was drafted pick #49, the last pick in the 2nd round in 2011

[bulldogtragic]

When did Pearce become a rookie?

He was drafted pick #49, the last pick in the 2nd round in 2011

Josh Hill compo from memory?

[soupman]

While I like what that assessment system sets out to achieve I think the scoring is out.

There is too much emphasis put on round and not pick eg. Huge difference between the Stringer (5) and Hrovat (21?) picks and yet they are being graded on the same scale.

From my POV ideally for that scale to work you would redo the draft in best available order as it is now, then compare the pick we used on a player ie. Hrovat and his new ranking. This way you are comparing how well we used our picks against what was really available, not just big clumps of 18+ players of vastly different abilities.

An example would be the 2011 draft*
1. Chad Wingard
2. Brendon Ellis
3. Stephen Coniglio
4. Taylor Adams
5. Tobe Greene
6. Adam Treloar
7. Jonathan Patton
8. Tom Mitchell
9. Bradley Hill
10. Elliot Yeo
11. Clay Smith
12. Tom Dyson
13. Michael Talia
14. Devon Smith
15. Adam Tomlinson
16. Lachie Neale
17. Mitchell Colby
18. Marley Williams
19. Sam Kerridge
20. Rory Laird

You mark Clay Smith down as a loss in your system because of the whole round thing but in this system we got a player 4 picks cheaper than his true value. And you mark Talia as about right when he is actually in the best 20, not 39.

Basically if you are assessing Dalrymple on where his players should have gone then they should be compared with the other players in the draft as we know them now not just against a notion of what quality a second round pick will be. Even with this new scale I would be much more critical of early selections (ie. pick 5 players would need to be considered pick 3-8 now to be a pass, ranked 9+ would be a disappointment), while a pick 21 is a pass if it's in the 13-22 range and anything after pick 40 is a win regardless of the players quality if they have debuted.

It's all relative to the other players in the draft pool.

*Mock draft for illustrative purposes only. I stole it from BF because I can't be bothered doing it myself. I in no way think Brandon Ellis was the 2nd best player available in that draft, let alone some of the other rankings.

[bornadog]

Soupaman, I would also rank Dom Tyson higher than that list. He was already a number three and is doing well so far this year.

[soupman]

Soupaman, I would also rank Dom Tyson higher than that list. He was already a number three and is doing well so far this year.

I was wondering who Tom Dyson was:)

Like I said at the bottom, that list is for illustrative purposes only. I think it's completely out personally, I just stole it off the BF thread because it was the most recent draft on the front page and had more than 10 picks listed. Plus there is no way I would massacre that many player's names.

[Scorlibo]

I was wondering who Tom Dyson was:)

Like I said at the bottom, that list is for illustrative purposes only. I think it's completely out personally, I just stole it off the BF thread because it was the most recent draft on the front page and had more than 10 picks listed. Plus there is no way I would massacre that many player's names.

Lol I was wondering why Toby Greene and Taylor Adams were ahead of Adam Treloar.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I've been watching this thread with interest. And I have to say the Howard decision was a disaster and falls into the UNFORGIVEABLE category. The players we ignored to draft a complete and utter unproven, unknown kid from the lower leagues was idiotic.
If we really rated him we could have rookied him. Or taken him with pick number 473. No one else knew or cared about him but we blow pick 15 on him. That's just so hard to digest, even all these years later. Nothing against Howard as a person but SHEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know hindsight is easy and all recruiters make mistakes. And some kids are rated highly as juniors and never blossom etc etc. But Howard was just a complete waste of that pick no matter which way you slice it. And I'm still PISSED OFF!!!!!!!!!

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I've been watching this thread with interest. And I have to say the Howard decision was a disaster and falls into the UNFORGIVEABLE category. The players we ignored to draft a complete and utter unproven, unknown kid from the lower leagues was idiotic.
If we really rated him we could have rookied him. Or taken him with pick number 473. No one else knew or cared about him but we blow pick 15 on him. That's just so hard to digest, even all these years later. Nothing against Howard as a person but SHEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know hindsight is easy and all recruiters make mistakes. And some kids are rated highly as juniors and never blossom etc etc. But Howard was just a complete waste of that pick no matter which way you slice it. And I'm still PISSED OFF!!!!!!!!!
A terrible pick for sure, but I believe we pulled the trigger so early because we 'feared' Adelaide would've nabbed him before our next pick arrived. I just don't understand why we felt he was so indispensable that we had to reach for him with such a valuable pick

[LostDoggy]

Ah memories :)

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/pick-15-christian-howard.655806/

[HOSE B ROMERO]

Doctor, Doctor, i'll give you the news,
You've gotta... bad case of the stayin' up late blues...

I mean i know that our team that we either inherited from our parents (god love them), or went the lucky dip and just picked ourselves, has given us many sleepless nights. But where do you guys/girls get your energy from?

I plan to send a request to our membership dept for a new inclusion in our membership package..

... Replace the lanyard with a Valium prescription. ;)

[HOSE B ROMERO]

By the way, has a complete analysis of all clubs draft picks over the last 5/10 years ever been done? Now that would provide a very good comparison.

[LostDoggy]

By the way, has a complete analysis of all clubs draft picks over the last 5/10 years ever been done? Now that would provide a very good comparison.

I did a comparison of Geelong and us for the last 10 years a couple of years ago (so more on Clayton's head). With worse picks they had twice the amount of good to elite players compared to us - yes twice.

Not strictly relevant but

1st round (top 16 picks) from 2000-2009 - excluding father sons

GEEL: BARTEL, MACKIE, VARCOE, SELWOOD, TAYLOR, BROWN
BULLDOGS: MCMAHON, POWER, WALSH, COONEY, GRIFFEN, WILLIAMS, HIGGINS, EVERITT, GRANT, HOWARD

2 out of 10 picks elite (Cooney and Griffen) - 20% hit rate
4 OUT OF 6 ELITE (Bartel, Mackie, Selwood, Taylor) - 66% hit rate!!

[F'scary]

You just can't help yourself, can you? :rolleyes:



I love how composed Bonts is, even so early on hin his career. Looks like he belongs at the top level already which is well above what I expected from him.

There is always pressure on the top draftees to make an immediate impact, but lets not forget that Pat Dangerfield was drafted with the knowledge that he wouldn't play at all the next year while he finished his education. Adleaide were rubbished for it in their local press but they've had the last laugh on that. Patience, patience, patience.

I saw his first game against Carton. Bad night but I was very impressed with his incisive disposal, particularly by hand but also by foot (the long kick). I also was impressed at his agility and capacity to handle being tackled. When he matures a bit more physically, I think he will regularly break tackles.

[Remi Moses]

Maybe we should have drafted Tom Dyson ( even john) ahead of Howard

[Twodogs]

Maybe we should have drafted Tom Dyson ( even john) ahead of Howard


John Dyson would fit into our defensive mentality perfectly well.

[stefoid]

2009 was simply a disaster. not even unlucky, just willfully reckless.
2010 was the year of f/s and doesnt count, with no live picks until the 70s. Dal and JJ get a thumbs up for great rookie picks.
2011 the jury is out. come back in 2016.
2012 make or break. his two most important picks to date. he swings.... he smacks it out of the park!!!!
2013 his 3rd most important pick. at pick #4, its a wide field. Boom, another home run! Still blinded by a kicker who cant play*, and takes Fuller, but at least its a 3rd rounder this time.
2014 - if wright drops to 5, we trade our 2nd rounder for Jaksch, and our 3rd goes for Cordy, it could be largely out of Simons hands.

* note to recruiting deprtment: yes we need guys who can kick. No it doesnt matter if they can kick if they cant execute under pressure. No more deer in the headlights players, please!!!!!

[boydogs]

2014 - if wright drops to 5, we trade our 2nd rounder for Jaksch, and our 3rd goes for Cordy, it could be largely out of Simons hands.

This is a good point, every chance we'll be forced to take Cordy & Foster F/S in the national draft and trade one of our first 2 picks. We may get one back for Higgins though

[FrediKanoute]

Agree, 2009 was poor with a better possible pick at every turn.
2011 I think is on the smelly side. Smith is a first team footballer, but the other guys drafted (Talia, Dickson & Pearce) are borderline. Talia could make it. Dickson is good enough but needs to get his body right and Pearce is a fail.
2012 - great draft......but if he had stuffed up picks 5 & 6 he wouldn't be a recruiter.....lucky in some respects that Melbourne took Toumpas

[F'scary]

Agree, 2009 was poor with a better possible pick at every turn.
2011 I think is on the smelly side. Smith is a first team footballer, but the other guys drafted (Talia, Dickson & Pearce) are borderline. Talia could make it. Dickson is good enough but needs to get his body right and Pearce is a fail.
2012 - great draft......but if he had stuffed up picks 5 & 6 he wouldn't be a recruiter.....lucky in some respects that Melbourne took Toumpas

Subsequent recruiting (Stringer, Crameri, Hunter, Hrovat & Honeychurch) has rather marginalised him on the list. But he was only pick 57, so no problem. Next year might be his last but a fair return on #57.

[bulldogtragic]

Subsequent recruiting (Stringer, Crameri, Hunter, Hrovat & Honeychurch) has rather marginalised him on the list. But he was only pick 57, so no problem. Next year might be his last but a fair return on #57.

Signed a 2 year deal. I agree with your logic, but he's been re-signed...

[Sedat]

2009 was simply a disaster. not even unlucky, just willfully reckless.
2010 was the year of f/s and doesnt count, with no live picks until the 70s. Dal and JJ get a thumbs up for great rookie picks.
2011 the jury is out. come back in 2016.
2012 make or break. his two most important picks to date. he swings.... he smacks it out of the park!!!!
2013 his 3rd most important pick. at pick #4, its a wide field. Boom, another home run! Still blinded by a kicker who cant play*, and takes Fuller, but at least its a 3rd rounder this time.
2014 - if wright drops to 5, we trade our 2nd rounder for Jaksch, and our 3rd goes for Cordy, it could be largely out of Simons hands.

* note to recruiting deprtment: yes we need guys who can kick. No it doesnt matter if they can kick if they cant execute under pressure. No more deer in the headlights players, please!!!!!
Brilliant summation Stef, especially with regard to players with supposedly good disposal but who simply can't play the game at this level. We've drafted a number of these types since 2009 and they have all been unmitigated disasters. Dalrymple's 2009 effort was so horrendous and so extravagantly reckless, it has cast a shadow over the rest of his tenure. However, extreme kudos to him for his top 10 selections in the last 2 years - they have all been reach selections but he has backed himself without hesitation.

[Remi Moses]

Have we ever. The attempt to replace harbrow/ Gilbee has been woeful.

[kruder]

I hope Simon has the courage again to go for the best available rather than to please the media and fans want for a panacea forward.With free agency, I believe we can get a really good forward once we climb into the 8 and I hope we don't panic buy.

[Doc26]

I hope Simon has the courage again to go for the best available rather than to please the media and fans want for a panacea forward.With free agency, I believe we can get a really good forward once we climb into the 8 and I hope we don't panic buy.

But can we expect to get to that position without at least one on our book ? As I see it, all teams in the eight have at least one, if not multiple, viable key position targets at their disposal.

[stefoid]

I hope Simon has the courage again to go for the best available rather than to please the media and fans want for a panacea forward.With free agency, I believe we can get a really good forward once we climb into the 8 and I hope we don't panic buy.

Good for us then that there are talls around our pick that will be best available and we would be crazy not take for structural reasons.

Quayle reckons we dont want Jaksch or he doesnt want us (wasnt that clear with the twitter) but hes not coming to the WO.

[kruder]

Good for us then that there are talls around our pick that will be best available and we would be crazy not take for structural reasons.

Quayle reckons we dont want Jaksch or he doesnt want us (wasnt that clear with the twitter) but hes not coming to the WO.

I grabbed this list from BF but just underlines my point on how important it is to get your pics right particularly in the first round no matter what style of player...
2001 - Sam Power
2002 - Tim Walsh
2003 - Farren Ray
2004 - Tom Williams
2006 - Andrejs Everitt
2007 - Jarrad Grant
2008 - Ayce Cordy
2009 - Christian Howard


To put it simply the poor drafting from Power in 01 to Grant in 07, was essentially the reason why we didn't get passed the prelim final stages for 3 years straight and 08 and 09 drafting , contributing factors for us getting close to the spoon.

Simon has been excellent over the last few years and if he thinks for say Laverde will be a better player than Durdin I hope he pulls the trigger...

[bulldogtragic]

Well that's that on Jaksch then. I never loved him anyway.

[boydogs]

Quayle reckons we dont want Jaksch or he doesnt want us (wasnt that clear with the twitter) but hes not coming to the WO.

Re. Darcy Moore

http://puu.sh/bBjtX/e852d0badc.png

[stefoid]

I grabbed this list from BF but just underlines my point on how important it is to get your pics right particularly in the first round no matter what style of player...
2001 - Sam Power
2002 - Tim Walsh
2003 - Farren Ray
2004 - Tom Williams
2006 - Andrejs Everitt
2007 - Jarrad Grant
2008 - Ayce Cordy
2009 - Christian Howard


To put it simply the poor drafting from Power in 01 to Grant in 07, was essentially the reason why we didn't get passed the prelim final stages for 3 years straight and 08 and 09 drafting , contributing factors for us getting close to the spoon.

Simon has been excellent over the last few years and if he thinks for say Laverde will be a better player than Durdin I hope he pulls the trigger...

yep, clayton stuffed that up right royally and so consistently too.

Power - can kick - can't play. (this is some kind of ongoing theme for us)
Walsh - Im not even sure - just couldn't actually play? I don't remember ever seeing him play….
Ray - This is a pass, it was a shocker of a draft.
Tom Williams - what might have been if the poor guy wasn't an injury basket case. Ill give a pass.
Everitt - high maintenance. One of claytons 'strange cats' from the stingrays.
Grant - see Everitt

A couple of average players and the rest duds - not one elite player from a first round pick in 6 years.

[bornadog]

yep, clayton stuffed that up right royally and so consistently too.

Power - can kick - can't play. (this is some kind of ongoing theme for us)
Walsh - Im not even sure - just couldn't actually play? I don't remember ever seeing him play….
Ray - This is a pass, it was a shocker of a draft.
Tom Williams - what might have been if the poor guy wasn't an injury basket case. Ill give a pass.
Everitt - high maintenance. One of claytons 'strange cats' from the stingrays.
Grant - see Everitt

A couple of average players and the rest duds - not one elite player from a first round pick in 6 years.

Yet conveniently left out is players like Cooney, Griffen, Ward, Harbrow, Higgins, Cross, McMahon, Minson, Wood, Jones, Roughead,

I know some of these guys are not first rounders or elite, but there are some good players there.

No matter what you think or supporters think of some of these guys, Ray has played almost 200 games, Everitt 100, and McMahon played over 100 games,

I can go through every single club and see how many elites have been picked out in the first round and I bet the record is not much better than ours. Don't forget after 2006, we finished higher up on the ladder and didn't get a chance to pick in the top 5.

Lets see how Simon goes. He has already picked guys like Howard, Fuller, Goodes, Lower, Pearce, Prudden and the rest still have to prove themselves. Yes the last two years he has done well, but hey we had picks 4,5,6.

[Greystache]

Yet conveniently left out is players like Cooney, Griffen, Ward, Harbrow, Higgins, Cross, McMahon, Minson, Wood, Jones, Roughead, Wallis, Libba, Dahl

I know some of these guys are not first rounders or elite, but there are some good players there.

No matter what you think or supporters think of some of these guys, Ray has played almost 200 games, Everitt 100, and McMahon played over 100 games,

I can go through every single club and see how many elites have been picked out in the first round and I bet the record is not much better than ours. Don't forget after 2006, we finished higher up on the ladder and didn't get a chance to pick in the top 5.

Lets see how Simon goes. He has already picked guys like Howard, Fuller, Goodes, Lower, Pearce, Prudden and the rest still have to prove themselves. Yes the last two years he has done well, but hey we had picks 4,5,6.

We had pick 4.5.6 previously- It netted us, Walsh, Grant, Williams. Not a quality player amongst them. Grant was pick 5 in 2007.

Goodes was a rookie and Lower was a delisted free agent.

[bornadog]

We had pick 4.5.6 previously- It netted us, Walsh, Grant, Williams. Not a quality player amongst them. Grant was pick 5 in 2007.

Goodes was a rookie and Lower was a delisted free agent.

Yes that is true.

Walsh - bad pick, Williams cruelled by injury, not Claytons issue and Grant jury out.

[soupman]

Yet conveniently left out is players like Cooney, Griffen, Ward, Harbrow, Higgins, Cross, McMahon, Minson, Wood, Jones, Roughead, Wallis, Libba, Dahl


Dalrymple picks.

[bornadog]

Dalrymple picks.

Yes you are right, I will amend.

[Ozza]

Yes that is true.

Walsh - bad pick, Williams cruelled by injury, not Claytons issue and Grant jury out.

I don't really think it's 'jury out' on Grant.
Its a failed pick. If he gets to 100 games, its not an unmitigated failure - but still a failure given the 8 year investment for next to nil return so far.

[chef]

Yet conveniently left out is players like Cooney, Griffen, Ward, Harbrow, Higgins, Cross, McMahon, Minson, Wood, Jones, Roughead,
.

Cooney and Griffen were no brainers.

Ward, Cross, Roughie and Harbrow were great picks.

Higgins, Minson and Wood are average picks. Not great, not bad just average.

Jones looks a miss.

That's just my take on it.

[w3design]

Yet conveniently left out is players like Cooney, Griffen, Ward, Harbrow, Higgins, Cross, McMahon, Minson, Wood, Jones, Roughead,

I know some of these guys are not first rounders or elite, but there are some good players there.

No matter what you think or supporters think of some of these guys, Ray has played almost 200 games, Everitt 100, and McMahon played over 100 games,

I can go through every single club and see how many elites have been picked out in the first round and I bet the record is not much better than ours. Don't forget after 2006, we finished higher up on the ladder and didn't get a chance to pick in the top 5.

Lets see how Simon goes. He has already picked guys like Howard, Fuller, Goodes, Lower, Pearce, Prudden and the rest still have to prove themselves. Yes the last two years he has done well, but hey we had picks 4,5,6.
Another handy player was a guy called Harris (Lake)

To be fair I think it was more KPP's missed by Clayton. It is more to do with his reputation than performance.

Since the Roughy Buddy draft Hawthorns has been ordinary with most better players traded in.

Geelong had a great father/son run.

At this stage Dalrymple bats at 50% Clayton at 40%. We will se how he goes this year

[Remi Moses]

Cooney and Griffen were no brainers.

Ward, Cross, Roughie and Harbrow were great picks.

Higgins, Minson and Wood are average picks. Not great, not bad just average.


Jones looks a miss.

That's just my take on it.

I agree, but it's the first round failures he had that are contributing to our current plight.
He's had a few very good late picks,but it's okay to claim a player has played x amount of games but it's the players picked after our pick that hurt.

[Remi Moses]

I don't really think it's 'jury out' on Grant.
Its a failed pick. If he gets to 100 games, its not an unmitigated failure - but still a failure given the 8 year investment for next to nil return so far.

Yep. The jury didn't even require an adjournment
Rioli, Henderson, Dangerfield Rance picked after him.
Ward was a great pick though.

[lemmon]

Cooney and Griffen were no brainers.

Ward, Cross, Roughie and Harbrow were great picks.

Higgins, Minson and Wood are average picks. Not great, not bad just average.

Jones looks a miss.

That's just my take on it.

I'd like to hear your reasoning on how an All Australian, 180 game ruckman is just an average pick whereas a potentially decent full back is classed as a great one?

[chef]

I'd like to hear your reasoning on how an All Australian, 180 game ruckman is just an average pick whereas a potentially decent full back is classed as a great one?

Minsons had one great season in how many?. He's a very good tap ruckman but offers not much else around the ground. Average(as in how I rate him) isn't bad, nor is it great.

At this stage Roughie looks a very good KPD(great on potential).

[The Doctor]

Minsons had one great season in how many?. He's a very good tap ruckman but offers not much else around the ground. Average(as in how I rate him) isn't bad, nor is it great.



Who exactly were you hoping for in a shallow draft? Gary Dempsey?

Will Minson was an outstanding pick in his draft. The return on investment has been surplus to expectations.

He didn't play any rep football, nor was he invited to the draft camp, and he only played schoolboy footy so the talent ID in this instance was brilliant. Maybe this is where Dalrymple got the idea to draft Howard.

[bulldogtragic]

Dalrymple under the pressure now it's no top 10 picks, let alone top 24. But 3 or 4 picks 26-40 need to be nailed, I hope he gets them right.

[GVGjr]

3 x 2nd round picks and maybe 2 x 3rd round picks will be a good test for him.

[Greystache]

He's nailed the early picks, which has been a massive issue for us in the past. If he can nail his 20-40 picks he will have been exceptional.

[bornadog]

He's nailed the early picks, which has been a massive issue for us in the past. If he can nail his 20-40 picks he will have been exceptional.

needs to find another Hrovat in the 20's

[Cyberdoggie]

Not going to be easy with the picks we have left but we need some quality running mids to replaced those that we have lost in Griffen, Cooney, and I'm assuming Tutt.

Not sure we are going to find them later in the draft.

[1eyedog]

Not going to be easy with the picks we have left but we need some quality running mids to replaced those that we have lost in Griffen, Cooney, and I'm assuming Tutt.

Not sure we are going to find them later in the draft.

Do you see Smith coming in for Cooney and Jong for Griffen?

[lemmon]

This will be the draft that makes or breaks him, three second round picks and Zaine...we need two of these guys to go on and be 150 game 'pieces of the puzzle' so to speak if this period is to be a success. Picks 20+ are always relatively speculative so we'll be getting a look at his true pedigree here.

[Cyberdoggie]

Do you see Smith coming in for Cooney and Jong for Griffen?

It will open the door up for them which is great but while Jong has shown some ability to run out of packs, he's no Griffen.

We've got a lot of the same type but lack outside run and dash and skill with the ball.

Other than Jong, none of our midfielders are overly quick.

[always right]

Do you see Smith coming in for Cooney and Jong for Griffen?

Smith won't be back until mid season will he?

[stefoid]

With these sorts of picks, its best available down the line. You dont want to narrow the field any further when dealing with high-risk selections by hunting for specific types of player. Save that for the sure-fire first round type of picks, IMO.

[Mantis]

With these sorts of picks, its best available down the line. You dont want to narrow the field any further when dealing with high-risk selections by hunting for specific types of player. Save that for the sure-fire first round type of picks, IMO.

I can't agree with that.. We need pace, kicking skills and defenders.

[Twodogs]

We may not have early picks for real quality but this is an opportunity to build the other pieces of the puzzle. The components of the premiership don't all have to be able to kick the ball 60 metres and land the ball in a bucket-although every Hawthorn player seems to be able to do it.

needs one slightly deranged part like Max Rooke. Someone who will do anything.


It also needs a dependable tall defender. Nothing spectacular. Catch the ball when it comes near him, keep the ball away from his man.

Above all though we need players who can kick. Like Biggs seems to be able to.

[LostDoggy]

I believe there are players who suit all these facets available at our picks. SD just has to hold his nerve and choose the right ones.

[stefoid]

I can't agree with that.. We need pace, kicking skills and defenders.

Sure we do, but is reaching down even further for these types of players actually addressing those needs? Or just paying it lip-service?

To actually address a need they have to be able to break into the side and perform well, otherwise they are just list cloggers.

Ive never been a fan of the 'project tall', the 'athlete that needs to learn to play footy' or the 'soft outside player with silky skills as long as nobody goes near him'...and these are exactly the types of players left after all the blokes who can play footy are gone. Cross-your-fingers-and-hope list cloggers.

If you really want to tick off a need as addressed, you have to spend a decent pick to get a very likely draftee (first round) or trade for a proven good one. Not saying you pass over the next Judd for a tall dudd, but if the Quality sure-thing kid is there that addresses your need, then you go for him with your high picks.

[bornadog]

I can't agree with that.. We need pace, kicking skills and defenders.


That is right the best available with those skills

[Ozza]

I can't agree with that.. We need pace, kicking skills and defenders.

Absolutely.

[boydogs]

Tough ask for Dalrymple with 5 picks between 25-50, but he's been going well so I'm confident we'll get a few decent players from them

[Remi Moses]

If we get one really good player and 2 good afl careers out of those picks he's a miracle worker.

[Twodogs]

If we get one really good player and 2 good afl careers out of those picks he's a miracle worker.

Should we count Zaine Cordy in that?

[Go_Dogs]

Should we count Zaine Cordy in that?

We probably should.

One attribute Simon has shown is his ability to grab players late who have some areas of improvement, or lack a couple of qualities, but are otherwise capable of developing into AFL players. Some of his work in the rookie draft has been great, as well as late selections. Dahlhaus, JJ, Dickson, Jong, Campbell, Roberts, Honeychurch have all shown a bit at least, some a genuinely good players and a couple (Redpath, Greenwood and Prudden) may yet end up playing some senior footy for us.

Our picks this time round are quite a bit earlier than most of the above were taken. After that first 4 I think the next 20 blokes are fairly even and the draft bats OK depth wise down to about the 45 mark. We aren't going to get any highly touted players, but we should be able to get some strong talent onto the list and if we stick true to our recent philosophies (no idea if we will) we can walk away with some talented, driven players who will improve our competitiveness and depth.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Our picks this time round are quite a bit earlier than most of the above were taken. After that first 4 I think the next 20 blokes are fairly even and the draft bats OK depth wise down to about the 45 mark. We aren't going to get any highly touted players, but we should be able to get some strong talent onto the list and if we stick true to our recent philosophies (no idea if we will) we can walk away with some talented, driven players who will improve our competitiveness and depth.

Agree with this.

We don't need to pluck a top 10 midfielder (or otherwise) with our picks. We need to pick good, quality role players. The reality is, even the best sides in the competition are filled with good solid players who simply play a role. When I look at Hawthorn, players like Brad Hill and Stratton are worth their weight in gold - neither were early picks, but both are great role players and as such have become an important part of that squad. If you took them out and put them in our side right now, they wouldn't look as good as they do now.

I think supporters forget this. Yes - you need high end quality on your list. We have that in Boyd, Bontempelli, Stringer, Macrae and Libba. They are/will be genuine superstars of the competition. We now need to support them with good quality role players, and typically these types come from the second and third rounds of a draft.

Bare in mind, we'll have a top 5 pick (or so) next year, so that's an opportunity to pick up a gun mid.

I'm confident Dalrymple can deliver.

[azabob]

BUMP

12 months after this thread has been created, thought a good time to bump it.

2014 AFL Draft

(Note Pick 6 was traded for Tom Boyd)

Pick 26 - Toby McLean

Pick 27 - Lukas Webb

Pick 39 - Declan Hamilton

Pick 45 - Bailey Dale

Pick 46 - Caleb Daniel

Pick 62 - Father Son - Zaine Cordy

Rookie Draft

Pick 5 - Roarke Smith

Pick 23 - Jordan Kelly

Pick 40 - Daniel Pearch

Pick 57 - Brett Goodes

[boydogs]

Biggs & Hamling should be considered as well. 6 of the 9 main list recruits have played seniors already, looking good

[bulldogtragic]

Of the 6 ND picks, 3 played AFL, the others named in bests in VFL. Can't ask for too much more stable this stage.

[bulldogtragic]

Biggs & Hamling should be considered as well. 6 of the 9 main list recruits have played seniors already, looking good

Add in Tom Boyd too. Three recruits from other clubs, and all three played AFL. And we've been winning too.

[azabob]

I wasnt sure if to put in trades as they are not necessarily his call.

[bulldogtragic]

I wasnt sure if to put in trades as they are not necessarily his call.

From memory the club put out a video last year or the year before with an interview with SD. He said the club ask for his opinion about trades in, ie what he thought of them as juniors and tracking development from where he saw them to where they were with their current club. Not sure how good is info on Boyd was as only GWS and Melbourne formally interviewed Tom. Lucky guess from SD! :)

[azabob]

I am interested in The Doctors thoughts 12 months on.

Doctor have you softened in your appraisal?

[LostDoggy]

Does anyone know or have any info,observations or opinions on how Declan is tracking?

[boydogs]

Does anyone know or have any info,observations or opinions on how Declan is tracking?

He's got serious footy smarts but may take time to adjust to senior footy

[GVGjr]

Does anyone know or have any info,observations or opinions on how Declan is tracking?

He's had a quiet patch for about 3 weeks now but there are times when he gets the ball and displays his skills that has me sitting back knowing we have a pretty good player. I'm more than happy to see him spend the season in the VFL because I think long term is he going to be a good one for us.

[jeemak]

From memory the club put out a video last year or the year before with an interview with SD. He said the club ask for his opinion about trades in, ie what he thought of them as juniors and tracking development from where he saw them to where they were with their current club. Not sure how good is info on Boyd was as only GWS and Melbourne formally interviewed Tom. Lucky guess from SD! :)

I can imagine his reaction when they said Tom Boyd might be a chance to be approached..............arms crossed, frown, raise of the eye brows and a non-committal "yeah I suppose that could help".

[Twodogs]

Does anyone know or have any info,observations or opinions on how Declan is tracking?


I heard he had a patch where he was a bit homesick but is over it now. Playing some good footy would have helped.

[Twodogs]

Do you think that this group of draftees may have got caught up in how well each other are doing and lifted their own expectations and output? McLean, Webb, Dale have all played and done well and Daniels is playing well for Footscray.

I think McLean and Dale would have seen Webb playing good footy in the seniors and thought "I can do that too" and adjusted their sights accordingly.

I wonder if Dalrymple thought that might happen if he bought four players in to compete for spots performing a similar role?

[jeemak]

Success breeds success across all levels.

Whilst I think your point is valid, I'm more interested in the influence this newest group's output will have on the 20-24 year olds on our list. There's going to be some concerted efforts across the board to keep them out.

It will be up to the coaches to ensure this results in positive changes in our club culture.

[Twodogs]

Success breeds success across all levels.

Whilst I think your point is valid, I'm more interested in the influence this newest group's output will have on the 20-24 year olds on our list. There's going to be some concerted efforts across the board to keep them out.

It will be up to the coaches to ensure this results in positive changes in our club culture.

It's an interesting point. I'd love to be present for those exchanges.

[The Doctor]

I am interested in The Doctors thoughts 12 months on.

Doctor have you softened in your appraisal?

I stand by all my previous comments but keep an open mind.

I was very happy with the first 2 picks in the last draft (McLean, Webb) and had hoped we might get one of them pre-draft. The other boys look like they can play which is most pleasing. I'm hoping all boys from the 2014 draft debut this year.

My question from this draft is, did we need to add so many small players? We already had an army of midgets. I would have liked us to recruit a young ruckman, or a kp type, or a dasher with the later picks to give us a more varied bunch. However, I feel this is one of his better drafts, if not his best, given the starting position.

I'm looking forward to this year's draft and really hope we retain our picks. This will be a very challenging draft but there are some very good taller types. It will be interesting to see what he does.

[Remi Moses]

I don't think size is an issue .
Look at Collingwood, got a few smaller types who are good overhead.
On exposed form you'd say we didn't need to recruit a Key back with Roberts coming on .
We recruited Hamling and Cordy as key backs anyway.
We do need a ruckman, but drafting one would have taken a number of years to come through .

[azabob]

Interesting points Doc on the smaller players. I think his 2014 batch are a lot more skilled and strong overhead than the previous batch.

[comrade]

While we did pick up multiple sub 190cm players in the draft, we also brought in 2 x 194cm defenders (Cordy and Hamling) and 200cm key forward during the off season.

[boydogs]

My question from this draft is, did we need to add so many small players?

Are you overlooking Hamling, Boyd & Cordy?

[The Doctor]

Are you overlooking Hamling, Boyd & Cordy?

No as this thread has got nothing to do with who we recruit from other clubs and what happens in the trade period. The focus is Dalrymple's performance at the draft.

[Bulldog Joe]

No as this thread has got nothing to do with who we recruit from other clubs and what happens in the trade period. The focus is Dalrymple's performance at the draft.

Surely on draft day they are also factoring who else is on the list.

On that basis the players traded in must count. Additionally Cordy MUST be considered as the decision to take at the pick we did was the recruiters responsibility, as was the decision not to put Jayden Foster forward as a father/son.

[comrade]

Surely on draft day they are also factoring who else is on the list.

On that basis the players traded in must count. Additionally Cordy MUST be considered as the decision to take at the pick we did was the recruiters responsibility, as was the decision not to put Jayden Foster forward as a father/son.

Agreed.

If we didn't bring in Hamling, I dare say we'd have chosen a tall in the draft.

Same with choosing to lock Cordy away.

You can't assess draft picks in isolation without considering the players brought in in the proceeding trade period.

[Remi Moses]

Surely on draft day they are also factoring who else is on the list.

On that basis the players traded in must count. Additionally Cordy MUST be considered as the decision to take at the pick we did was the recruiters responsibility, as was the decision not to put Jayden Foster forward as a father/son.

This was a complete knee jerk thread to begin with .
The bloke had his arm tied behind his back with the expansion clubs piliging the draft, and added in he was part time!!

[jeemak]

I stand by all my previous comments but keep an open mind.

I was very happy with the first 2 picks in the last draft (McLean, Webb) and had hoped we might get one of them pre-draft. The other boys look like they can play which is most pleasing. I'm hoping all boys from the 2014 draft debut this year.

My question from this draft is, did we need to add so many small players? We already had an army of midgets. I would have liked us to recruit a young ruckman, or a kp type, or a dasher with the later picks to give us a more varied bunch. However, I feel this is one of his better drafts, if not his best, given the starting position.

I'm looking forward to this year's draft and really hope we retain our picks. This will be a very challenging draft but there are some very good taller types. It will be interesting to see what he does.

Do you think perhaps that questions over Smith, Hunter and Hrovat (all for different reasons) may have had an influence on our list management decisions leading into the draft?

I can certainly make a case for sourcing a contingency for Smith, as at the time he was sitting on two reconstructions. Possibly we felt that Hrovat and Hunter have question marks over their ability to cut it at senior level having watched them for a couple of years.

What I think we'll find after this draft is that we have added more outside polish than we as onlookers thought we may have at the time, which was a really big priority for a lot of posters. All of Dale, Webb and McLean look to have this as significant attributes, while Hamilton possibly presents them as well.

What I'm really happy about however, is the fact that we look to have placed an emphasis on pure football talent. We haven't done that as a club very often which is strange, as for the most part teams with the most talent win more games.

[boydogs]

No as this thread has got nothing to do with who we recruit from other clubs and what happens in the trade period. The focus is Dalrymple's performance at the draft.

If we didn't get Hamling, Cordy & Boyd we may have drafted Jayden Foster, Oscar McDonald & Reece McKenzie

[stefoid]

Given the the performance of this years draftees, and taking a look at each of his drafts, each looks better than the last (coming off a very low base in 2009 where he was working part time or something?).

So hes improving. Im happy with that. And I reckon if you must target needs you use a 1st round pick to do it, and take a best-available with lesser picks, so Im happy with 2014 - they can all play, and we got Boyd, Hamling and Deuce to address needs anyway.

We trade or draft a tall/quick with our 1st pick this year, and go best available again after that, IMO.

[comrade]

As an aside, interesting to hear that SD is on the 8 man panel that selects the U/18 All Australian team which is announced tomorrow.

Not that we could have used that as a guide in past years with our preference for bolters and smokies (Webb, McLean, Dale, Hamilton, Bontempelli etc).

[Ghost Dog]

Bump. If I could have been at the game, I would have made a DALRYMPLE banner.
His selection of Bont for his unusual dimensions for a midfielder, Caleb for his smarts, and other out of the box selections have been on the money. Deserves his own medal.

[GVGjr]

Bump. If I could have been at the game, I would have made a DALRYMPLE banner.
His selection of Bont for his unusual dimensions for a midfielder, Caleb for his smarts, and other out of the box selections have been on the money. Deserves his own medal.

3 of his six draftees from 2 years back played yesterday with just Webb, Hamilton and Dale missing and we can also add the recruitment of Shane Biggs to the mix. That is some serious fast tracking of players within our development programme.

Biggs played 26 games this season and pushed forward for 4 goals.

It's not just Dalrymple but he and J-Mac are the architects of a great recruitment and identification process.

[Ghost Dog]

Great work JMAC too. So many people behind the scenes I love to hear about.
(I am glad also, that other McCartney was mentioned in a few articles in a positive light, in context of his tightening of the NDH policy.
His tenure wasn't all bad and certainly demanded a harder edge to our inside work. )

Funny to think while our boys are celebrating, SD and JMac are sharpening their pencils, about to prepare to go to work on finding new players, their busiest time of the year.

[S Coast Simon]

Bumped into MaCartney on the plane to the grand final wearing a Bulldogs hat. He nodded at me and smiled so I tapped him on the shoulder at told him we still think he is a Bulldogs legend and thanked him for toughening up the boys. He was very grateful

[Ozza]

I think I mentioned in another thread, that I was sitting close to Dalrymple in Sydney at the prelim, and in the euphoria of the final siren I told him he was a genius (possibly with an expletive in front of it!)

But I tell you what.....this premiership is a nightmare for draft picks :p

[bulldogtragic]

This draft will give SD his lowest draft selection since the pick used on Marcus Bontempelli.

[bulldogtragic]

Many argue that the job of the recruiting manager is the most important in the AFL. Unless I'm mistaken, all clubs expect, the person in charge of their recruiting has the job of delivering to the club players that will eventually win them a premiership.

Let's turn the spotlight on Simon Dalrymple, Recruiting Manager, of the Western Bulldogs. How well has he performed in his 5 years in this role at the club and whether he has delivered players that will form the nucleus of a premiership winning team. Surely that is enough time to decide whether his selections earn him an appraisal that warrants his retention in this critical role or not.

The following are Simon Dalrymple's selections at each respective draft since his appointment;

Father/Sons
Mitchell Wallis (pick 22, 2010)
Thomas Liberatore (41/2010)
Lachlan Hunter (49/2012)

I have intentionally highlighted & excluded father/sons from the following analysis as they are players we have had first access to. PLayers we have been able to monitor, access exclusively to other clubs (or as some say gifted to us) and form decisions well in advance of their recruitment.

The following focus's on Simon Dalrymple's live selections ;

In total

34 selections - 18 National Draft selections, 1 pre season draft selection & 15 rookie draft selections

2009 National Draft
15. Christian Howard
31. Jason Tutt
63. Lukas Markovic
76. Shane Thorne

Rookies
19. Brodie Moles
35. Andrew Hooper
48. Matthew Panos
59. Eddie Prato
68. Patrick Rose

2010 National Draft
74. Jayden Schofield
88. Zephaniah Skinner
89. Tom Hill

Rookies
22. Luke Dahlhaus
39. Jason Johannisen
55. Ed Barlow
70. Mitch Hahn

2011 National Draft
17. Clay Smith
39. Michael Talia
49. Daniel Pearce
57. Tory Dickson

Pre-Season Draft
11. Fletcher Roberts

Rookies
9. Lin Jong
27. Tom Campbell
45. Alex Greenwood
62. Jack Redpath
76. Mark Austin

2012 National Draft
5. Jake Stringer
6. Jackson Macrae
21. Nathan Hrovat
50. Joshua Prudden

Rookies
4. Brett Goodes

2013 National Draft
4. Marcus Bontempelli
42. Matthew Fuller
60. Mitch Honeychurch


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the following discussion I would like to ackowledge the following;

Some selections, to my knowledge, may have been influenced by coaches (Eade or Macartney). Possibly including but not limited to;

RD 70. Mitch Hahn
ND 57. Tory Dickson
RD 27. Tom Campbell
RD 62. Jack Redpath
RD 4. Brett Goodes

Whether or not these players were recruited at the request of the coach or someone else in the football dept, the Recruiting Manager has the responsibility to argue the case, for or against, based on the players options he has to chose instead.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Key Observations

* From the 09/10 drafts only 4 of 16 players remain listed, these are; Howard, Tutt, Dahlhaus & Johannisen.

- Only 1, Dahlhaus has established himself as a regular AFL player

- Only 1 player (Tutt) in the 2 national drafts was chosen from the elite national pathway. And he was from the 2nd tier competition.

- 3 of these are midgets (180cm or below) & 1 suburban footballer (Howard)

- Howard was chosen in the first round, ahead of players who were proven elite players recognised in the elite national pathway, including; Ben Griffiths, Nat Fyfe, Ryan Bastinac, Jake Carlisle, Aaron Black, Mitch Duncan, Jack Gunston, all proven players through the elite national pathway and/or state leagues

- Tutt was chosen ahead of others in the National Draft (ND) OR rookie draft (RD) including; Sam Reid, Allen Christensen, Nat Vardy, Ben Stratton, Jake Fitzpatrick, Taylor Duryea, Ben Howlett, Matthew Wright, Stewart Crameri, Levi Casboult, Matthew Jaensch, James Podsiadly,

Questions - On what basis was Howard chosen as the 15th best player in the country when he was deemed not good enough to play for his state at u/18 level, nor invited to the ND camp. or State camp?
- On what basis was Howard chosen ahead of even Tutt?
- On what basis was Schofield, Skinner and Hill chosen ahead of Dahlhaus when Dahlhaus was an excellent player for Vic country at u/18 level and the others did not play rep football that year.

* An inability to select Small Defenders – 8 have been chosen. These include; Howard, Tutt, Schofield, Johannisen, Pearce, Jong, Goodes, Fuller.

- None have established themselves as an AFL player

- Current mainstay small defenders in the team are Picken, Murphy, Wood, Higgins. All recruited previously

* Midgets 10 in total - Tutt, Hooper, Schofield, Dahlhaus, Johannisen, Pearce, Greenwood, Fuller, Hrovat, Honeychurch

Here is some interesting information;
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/size-matters-at-afl-level/story-e6frf9jf-1226650225771


* State League Recruits – 14 in total; Lukas Markovic, Shane Thorne, Brodie Moles, Eddie Prato, Pat Rose, Zeph Skinner, Ed Barlow, Mitch Hahn, Tory Dickson, Tom Campbell, Jack Redpath, Mark Austin, Brett Goodes, Matthew Fuller

- It is likely that all 14 will not make it as good AFL players

- Between the State League Recruits and the Midgets 23 out of 34 have been recruited almost 75% of Dalrymples recruits yet very few are likely to mske it as an AFL player

* Inability to Select Key Position Players;

- Only 4 Key forwards selected overall; Panos, Hill, Redpath & Roberts.
- Only key forward selected in the ND, Tom Hill at pick 89. Then 1 in the PSD & 2 in the RD.
- Only 2 ruckmen selected overall and both in the rookie draft (Prato & Campbell)
- Prato, a former basketballer, had hardly played any competitive football
- Only 1 key defender chosen (Talia) inside first 3 rounds of ND.
- Ovarall in 5 years only 1 KP player chosen in the first 2 rounds of the ND

- Current KP's Minson, Morris, Roughead all recruited previously with, aside from Talia, Jones and Cordy the next in line option

Other Observations

- No Players with genuine pace have made it
- No players with elite kicking skill have made it
- Since Mcartney became coach emphasis on the 1st round selections on larger midfield capable types (Smith, Stringer, Macrae, Bontempelli)
- Limited use of rookie list in Macartney era

I could add more but it's 3am and I've worried enough about the Dogs for one night. Make up your own mind about whether Simon Dalrymple will recruit the players the Bulldogs need to win a premierhip. I have.

Bump:

2014

Toby McLean (Premiership Player)
Lukas Webb
Declan Hamilton
Bailey Dale
Caleb Daniel (Premiership Player)
Zaine Cordy (Premiership Player)

Rookies: Roarke Smith (GF emergency), Jordan Kelly (D), Daniel Pearce (D), Brett Goodes (D)


2015

Josh Dunkley (Premiership Player)
Keiran Collins
Marcus Adams
Bailey Williams

Rookies: Brad Lynch, Luke Goetz (D), Jed Adcock (D)


2016

Tim English
Pat Lipinski
Young
Fergus Greene

Rookies: Nathan MM, Josh Prudden, Tristan Tweedie


Well, the last three draft since The Doctors great in-depth analysis we've not had a live pick inside 18 (English a bit later with bidding). It certainly seems like an amazing period of drafting to get some very high quality, without top end picks.

Good: Our scouts in SA & WA have provided some good Intel. Not sure if they're new scouts. Hamilton & Young, but in particular Daniel & Williams out of SA into/past the third round is good going. Adams & English out of WA will be good long term players, if we can sign Adams up.

Right Calls: Dal has had to make father/son calls on Foster (Carlton, then delisted), MacPherson (GCS, a long way back in the queue) & Romero. It looks like he made the right 'pass' call on all three.

Not quite as good: Our rookie list strategy. Kelly would be at best an average country league player & Goetz was a waste owing to himself. Depth players in Pearce, Goodes & Adcock provided very little. Hopefully Prudden changes this trend. If Roarke can get back that's a win, however, Lynch is a jet and we'll see how NMM & Tweedie go.


So since The Doctor gave us this thread, we have looked to address both the KPP & ruck through trade and draft. The balance seems to be getting a lot better. In the last three years I'd say Dal has spun gold from the middle and end of the draft. But I'm still unsure that the rookie list strategy is being used to maximum advantage. Historically we've recruited amazing players from the rookie draft, but using our picks on short term depth players who haven't really played that many games blocks us from finding exciting talent in the RD. Overall, Dalrymple deserves the plaudits he gets from all areas, after a slow start.

[comrade]

Time for Dalrymple to invest in some goal scoring threats. Conversion is such a critical element of footy and it's our biggest hole at the moment, with few prospects coming through that I'd rate as natural forwards (Greene and Lipinski look the goods).

[bornadog]

Dalrymple's record

2009, 2010 - fail in National draft
2011 - 4 picks, Clay and Dickson - 50% success
2012 - 4 picks with only Prudden doubtful, but could make it.
2013 - 3 picks - 1 success -nailed The Bont
2014 - 6 picks - 3 success, doubts on Webb, Hamilton and Dale.
2015 - 4 picks - all looking good so far, Collins is young and could make it.
2016 - unknown.

Rookies have saved our bacon

[Topdog]

but the rookies are him too right?

[Twodogs]

but the rookies are him too right?

His decision in the end. I read an article about how he really had to fight to take both JJ and Dahlhaus in the same rookie draft. The footy dept. was saying "oh look, you can have one pick for your secret dwarf project that you seem to be obsessed with. You will have to choose one or the other" they wanted him to take a safe reject from another club that would play ten or fifteen games the following year, not two teenagers under six foot who might make it five years down the track.

But Dalrymple, who had no stones at this stage, argued his case well enough for the footy department to back off and let him have both his players and the footy department only got cheesy Barlow (what was his actual name?) and Mitch Hahn.

That's what the guts of the article said so it sounds like the footy department had a fair bit of input in 2011.

[Bulldog4life]

Simon has been with us since 2007. He is a loyal employee of our Club. His recent signing was terrific news as there were a number of other Clubs interested.

[bulldogtragic]

Dalrymple's record

2009, 2010 - fail in National draft
2011 - 4 picks, Clay and Dickson - 50% success
2012 - 4 picks with only Prudden doubtful, but could make it.
2013 - 3 picks - 1 success -nailed The Bont
2014 - 6 picks - 3 success, doubts on Webb, Hamilton and Dale.
2015 - 4 picks - all looking good so far, Collins is young and could make it.
2016 - unknown.

Rookies have saved our bacon

I think he's done ok overall, looking at the Premiership Team he's certainly an architect (Bold are his picks, or *decisions that would've had his involvement):

B: M. Boyd Roberts *Biggs
HB: Wood *Hamling JJ
C: Hunter Libba Macrae
HF: Stringer Cordy McLean
F: Smith *T. Boyd Dickson
R: Roughead Dahl Bonts
Int: Dunkley Daniel Picken Morris

[Webby]

I think he's done ok overall, looking at the Premiership Team he's certainly an architect (Bold are his picks, or *decisions that would've had his involvement):

B: M. Boyd Roberts *Biggs
HB: Wood *Hamling JJ
C: Hunter Libba Macrae
HF: Stringer Cordy McLean
F: Smith *T. Boyd Dickson
R: Roughead Dahl Bonts
Int: Dunkley Daniel Picken Morris

Technically, he could've passed on Libba - as with Z Cordy, no?

[bulldogtragic]

Technically, he could've passed on Libba - as with Z Cordy, no?

He can pass on any father/son he doesn't rate highly enough of. Recently Romero, MacPherson, Foster and another tier of technical choices lower again.

[Webby]

He can pass on any father/son he doesn't rate highly enough of. Recently Romero, MacPherson, Foster and another tier of technical choices lower again.

Correct. So my point is that Libba should perhaps be written in bold in the team above. Technically, Dalrymple drafted him, right? As with Zaine - even if we did have the inside rail.

[bulldogtragic]

Correct. So my point is that Libba should perhaps be written in bold in the team above. Technically, Dalrymple drafted him, right? As with Zaine - even if we did have the inside rail.

Ah, I missed him!! So that's only 5 players in our premiership 22 not within Dal's immediate reach: Roughy, Picken, M. Boyd, Morris & Wood.

[Twodogs]

Ah, I missed him!! So that's only 5 players in our premiership 22 not within Dal's immediate reach: Roughy, Picken, M. Boyd, Morris & Wood.

Dal didn't pick Roughie?

Don't tell me that Clayton picked a tall that is still on the list!

[bulldogtragic]

Dal didn't pick Roughie?

Don't tell me that Clayton picked a tall that is still on the list!

Roughy & Picko the year before SD started, 2008. Easton 2007, Morris 2005, Boyd 2003.

Emphasises just how bloody young the premiership team was.

[bornadog]

You can listen to Simon here (http://www.afl.com.au/draft/road-to-the-draft)talking about recruiting.

[Twodogs]

You can listen to Simon here (http://www.afl.com.au/draft/road-to-the-draft)talking about recruiting.


Or you could go to Whitten oval. He's happy to talk to anyone.

[bornadog]

Or you could go to Whitten oval. He's happy to talk to anyone.

It is 40 minutes but really worth listening to.

[comrade]

It is 40 minutes but really worth listening to.

Yep, some quality insights.

- Sounds like we're prepared to take some more drafting risks with a flag in the bag
- Dal sounded very bullish about Lipinski. Said he was 'flying' before the injury and really benefited from a professional environment.
- We're keeping an eye on Jacob Smith this year and Rhylee West has an extremely 'aggressive' style but has things he needs to work on.
- Tom Boyd's GF performance was how he played in TAC Cup
- He was asked about our list needs and he said that the ruck is obviously an area of interest and referred to Bevo's different perspective on ruckmen.
- Dal decided to do a final home visit with Tim English even though he thought he wouldn't be available. Took a 4 hour flight, and hours more driving to get there. His dad is a big, strong farmer and his mother is a school teacher. Good family.
- Reckons this year's talent pool is shallower than last years at the top end.

[bulldogtragic]

You can listen to Simon here (http://www.afl.com.au/draft/road-to-the-draft)talking about recruiting.

Best 45 minutes I've spent in a very long time!!

[bulldogtragic]

Yep, some quality insights.

- Sounds like we're prepared to take some more drafting risks with a flag in the bag
- Dal sounded very bullish about Lipinski. Said he was 'flying' before the injury and really benefited from a professional environment.
- We're keeping an eye on Jacob Smith this year and Rhylee West has an extremely 'aggressive' style but has things he needs to work on.
- Tom Boyd's GF performance was how he played in TAC Cup
- He was asked about our list needs and he said that the ruck is obviously an area of interest and referred to Bevo's different perspective on ruckmen.
- Dal decided to do a final home visit with Tim English even though he thought he wouldn't be available. Took a 4 hour flight, and hours more driving to get there. His dad is a big, strong farmer and his mother is a school teacher. Good family.
- Reckons this year's talent pool is shallower than last years at the top end.

Rhylee West is aggressive at the contest. Surprise!? :D
No doubt whatsoever Tom Boyd will be a dominant KPF (thought of you when he said that :D )
I think we might trade our first rounder by the sounds of it (for the right player). May increase our risk, may look for the immediate need and talent not deep... That's my reading of those three quotes.
Very confident JJ will stay.
'We have room in our TPP (salary cap), after all we chased Hurley'.
Bevo very strong on rucks and what they need to do. Also looking at ruck recruiting if 'last touch' came in (I.e. Wouldn't be as vital a position).
Hoping the possible CatB Rookie Tuku from Western Jets comes on by next year, may train with us over Summer.
Tweedie hopefully on the park after the bye round sometime.
Dal spends a minimum 2.5 days a week watching videos of player vision. Plus watching games on top. Plus various meetings each week. Busy man.
In favour of abondoing the rookie list in favour of a bigger primary list.
Won a premiership years ahead of his expectation.
Favourite picks: Dahl & JJ (owing to going deep into the rookie draft).

[comrade]

Dal is a gun and a real asset to the club. He sits just outside the holy trinity of Bevo, Bont & Gordo in terms of importance, IMO.

[Go_Dogs]

Listened to the podcast on the way home, very insightful and the line of questioning was good.

[Twodogs]

Dal is a gun and a real asset to the club. He sits just outside the holy trinity of Bevo, Bont & Gordo in terms of importance, IMO.


Gordo out and Dal in for mine. And I man love Gordo with a passion.

[Remi Moses]

Rhylee West is aggressive at the contest. Surprise!? :D
No doubt whatsoever Tom Boyd will be a dominant KPF (thought of you when he said that :D )
I think we might trade our first rounder by the sounds of it (for the right player). May increase our risk, may look for the immediate need and talent not deep... That's my reading of those three quotes.
Very confident JJ will stay.
'We have room in our TPP (salary cap), after all we chased Hurley'.
Bevo very strong on rucks and what they need to do. Also looking at ruck recruiting if 'last touch' came in (I.e. Wouldn't be as vital a position).
Hoping the possible CatB Rookie Tuku from Western Jets comes on by next year, may train with us over Summer.
Tweedie hopefully on the park after the bye round sometime.
Dal spends a minimum 2.5 days a week watching videos of player vision. Plus watching games on top. Plus various meetings each week. Busy man.
In favour of abondoing the rookie list in favour of a bigger primary list.

Funny listening to Good old slobo, after he called him Jason Johnson twice , he banged on about being tight in the cap .
Throwing up hypotheticals about the Bont earning a mil, and Boyd taking up our salary space , but somehow forgot that we offered Hurley a heap to leave last year .

[Twodogs]

Funny listening to Good old slobo, after he called him Jason Johnson twice , he banged on about being tight in the cap .
Throwing up hypotheticals about the Bont earning a mil, and Boyd taking up our salary space , but somehow forgot that we offered Hurley a heap to leave last year .

And instead of trying to create trouble at our club with hypotheticals, maybe he should be doing his job as a journo and asking Essendon some hypotheticals about their salary cap and how they managed to squeeze all those returning players into it.

[ledge]

Bevo said on the couch that Boyd is more a ruck going forward than a forward going in the ruck.
If that's the case if Tim English can take marks in the forward line we have a real massive problem for the opposition.

[bornadog]

Was Simon any good?

The following are the National Draft picks - no rookies




Pick number


games


2009
15
Christian Howard

20



31
Jason Tutt

26



63
Lukas Markovic

29



76
Shane Thorne

0



86
Liam Picken R

175



92
James Mulligan R

3


2010
22
Mitchell Wallis F

145



41
Thomas Liberatore F

142



74
Jayden Schofield

7



88
Zephaniah Skinner

8



89
Tom Hill

0



102
Brodie Moles R

4



110
Andrew Hooper R

6


2011
17
Clay Smith

55



39
Michael Talia

30



49
Daniel Pearce

6



57
Tory Dickson

113



70
Luke Dahlhaus R
Geelong
143



73
Matthew Panos R

0


2012
5
Jake Stringer
Essendon
89



6
Jackson Macrae

153



21
Nathan Hrovat

30



49
Lachlan Hunter F

132



50
Joshua Prudden

4



98
Tom Campbell R
North Melbourne
35



105
Jason Johannisen R

134


2013
4
Marcus Bontempelli

139



42
Matthew Fuller

0



60
Mitch Honeychurch

35



84
Brett Goodes R

9


2014
26
Toby McLean

87



27
Lukas Webb C

24



39
Declan Hamilton C

0



45
Bailey Dale

59



46
Caleb Daniel

103



62
Zaine Cordy F

81


2015
25
Josh Dunkley F

72



26
Kieran Collins

1



35
Marcus Adams
Brisbane
27



48
Bailey Williams

53


2016
19
Timothy English
Western Bulldogs
41



28
Patrick Lipinski
Western Bulldogs
42



49
Lewis Young
Western Bulldogs
15



70
Fergus Greene
Western Bulldogs
5



* 44 National Draft Players
*10 over 100 games
*6 over 50, plus most likely English and Lippa
*28 very average or not good enough players

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Was Simon any good?

The following are the National Draft picks - no rookies




Pick number


games


2009
15
Christian Howard

20



31
Jason Tutt

26



63
Lukas Markovic

29



76
Shane Thorne

0



86
Liam Picken R

175



92
James Mulligan R

3


2010
22
Mitchell Wallis F

145



41
Thomas Liberatore F

142



74
Jayden Schofield

7



88
Zephaniah Skinner

8



89
Tom Hill

0



102
Brodie Moles R

4



110
Andrew Hooper R

6


2011
17
Clay Smith

55



39
Michael Talia

30



49
Daniel Pearce

6



57
Tory Dickson

113



70
Luke Dahlhaus R
Geelong
143



73
Matthew Panos R

0


2012
5
Jake Stringer
Essendon
89



6
Jackson Macrae

153



21
Nathan Hrovat

30



49
Lachlan Hunter F

132



50
Joshua Prudden

4



98
Tom Campbell R
North Melbourne
35



105
Jason Johannisen R

134


2013
4
Marcus Bontempelli

139



42
Matthew Fuller

0



60
Mitch Honeychurch

35



84
Brett Goodes R

9


2014
26
Toby McLean

87



27
Lukas Webb C

24



39
Declan Hamilton C

0



45
Bailey Dale

59



46
Caleb Daniel

103



62
Zaine Cordy F

81


2015
25
Josh Dunkley F

72



26
Kieran Collins

1



35
Marcus Adams
Brisbane
27



48
Bailey Williams

53


2016
19
Timothy English
Western Bulldogs
41



28
Patrick Lipinski
Western Bulldogs
42



49
Lewis Young
Western Bulldogs
15



70
Fergus Greene
Western Bulldogs
5



* 44 National Draft Players
*10 over 100 games
*6 over 50, plus most likely English and Lippa
*28 very average or not good enough players


Great work pulling all that together BAD, but I'm unsure on it's own it's good enough to measure his performance. We'd need to compare against a raft of other variables:
*average games played for each draft position in AFL draft historically
*comparision against other recruiters and their 'hit rate'

I know that drafting is very hit and miss, with even the good recruiters getting a lot of misses.
Someone with more data analysis skills might be able to propose what other variabes and data we'd need to better assess his performance.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Interesting isnt it

We get a big bump from some excellent father sons being lower value picks - Libba, Wallis, Cordy and Hunter

He's nailed some high selections in Macrae, Stringer, Bont and then had some sparkling successes in late picks Dahl, JJ

But then also been good in the 20-50 range with Dunkley, Dickson, Lippa, McLean, Bailey Williams, Bailey Dale etc



Ultimately we won a flag and he did a lot of the work putting together that team - so he deserves to be remembered somewhat fondly

[Remi Moses]

I tend to look how our recruiting was resourced when he started
Wasn’t great if I recall

[Doc26]

Thanks BD. Good to analyse this. The other caveat of course if what level of autonomy did Simon have in the selection of these players throughout his tenure.

[Topdog]

14 picks at 70+ in the draft too

[GVGjr]

We would be doing Dalrymple a disservice by not calling out his great work from the rookie list selections
As BAD's list highlights he and the team nailed a few of them

[soupman]

Some of the "failures" need to be looked into deeper too.

Zephi Skinner for example must have been a decision made by a big group, Dalrymple from the "could he be good enough" aspect, but I'd imagine many people including the coach, football director etc would have been involved in the call of whether or not they could turn him into an actual AFL player.

[jeemak]

Some of the "failures" need to be looked into deeper too.

Zephi Skinner for example must have been a decision made by a big group, Dalrymple from the "could he be good enough" aspect, but I'd imagine many people including the coach, football director etc would have been involved in the call of whether or not they could turn him into an actual AFL player.

Nope. Recruitment is a blood sport where coaches and recruiters go head to head to control the ultimate outcome of one player being on the list and another not being on the list. You need to catch up on your reading mate.

[AshMac]

Great post BAD - on raw stats it’s a very mixed report card for him. Some absolute stars with first picks (except Howard) And some real flops with 2+ pick. As others say - lots of other variables, including autonomy.

And on autonomy... Interesting story,

I used to bump into Brendan McCartney on my walk to work regularly after he started at Melbourne. I introduced myself and we’d chat 1-2 times a week for nearly 6 months. It got to the point where I’d flat out ask him about people at the club - he never held back.

He was adamant (long backstory about watching Bont in the juniors) that Dalrymple was set on Aish that year. McCartney put his foot down, said he wasn’t popular for it and insisted on Bont and the rest is history.

Potentially a very different outcome for the club and the sentiment in this thread.