Strange Feeling...

[LostDoggy]

This has been troubling me for quite a few weeks now. In previous years it has been relatively easy to name the best 22-24, through good and bad periods.

However I don’t recall having this uncertain feeling about the best 22 at any other stage. It’s now the realisation that something is actually building on the park with our team. There’s so many differentials to the make up of the best 22 for 2014 & 2015 that I think you’d get 10 different answers from 10 different people.

Last weeks team (Vs. GC), just to use as a starting example – potential additions/those that missed in brackets(), some in dual positions

B: Picken, Roughead, Austin
HB: Murphy, Morris, Wood
C: Darley, Boyd, Wallis
HF: Stringer, Crameri, Macrae
F: Dalhaus, Redpath, Hrovat
Foll: Minson, Stevens, Liberatore
Int: Bontempelli, Hunter, Johannisen, Honeychurch

B: ( Roberts, Young, Talia, Fuller )
HB: ( Higgins, Tutt, Young, Talia, Roberts, Fuller )
C: ( Cooney, Griffen, Prudden )
HF: ( Grant, Higgins, Tutt, Cooney, Jones, Dickson )
F: ( Smith, Cooney, Jones, Hrovat, Stevens, Dickson, Campbell, Cordy )
Foll: ( Smith, Campbell, Cordy )


Left out those that I don’t believe will be on the list post 2014. As you can see, most people will probably have 3 or 4 different players from the next person (not 1 or 2). Only Prudden and Fuller haven’t had exposure at AFL level, but i think most are prepared to give them at least another year. Aside from that all the players listed have shown that they’re up to the task at various points in time. The variability comes from their general age and experience currently.

[LostDoggy]

Great post.

I've certaintly felt the same thing recently.

Just thinking about the ins and outs for the Bombers match I got to Clay Smith and thought yep, certaintly coming in this week. But then I actually couldn't find anyone to replace him with... Stevens was really the only one who was a very solid contributer on the weekend.

[LostDoggy]

Great post.

I've certaintly felt the same thing recently.

Just thinking about the ins and outs for the Bombers match I got to Clay Smith and thought yep, certaintly coming in this week. But then I actually couldn't find anyone to replace him with... Stevens was really the only one who was a very solid contributer on the weekend.

Likewise. His aggression he imparts (controlled, not smart-arse aggression) is something that a young developing side like ours needs, especially when things aren't going to plan. Where he plays? Anywhere from centre circle to deep forward pocket in the long run. I see Stevens as a roaming/floating forward in the future, but he was far from disgraced last weekend.

[Ozza]

We are a very very even list at the moment. In years to come, you would logically assume that some of the 'high end talent' like Macrae, Stringer & Bontempelli will start to join Griffen & Libba as our elite players (Macrae could be sooner rather than later). But right now we have a lot of positions up for grabs. Certainly key forward and key defensive - there is at least one at each end that is genuinely anyone's from a list of Talia, Roberts, Redpath, Jones, Cordy.

We bat pretty deep for mids/smalls already.

[Cyberdoggie]

There certainly is some depth there, that is pretty evident by the results of the Footscray side this year.

Experience and physical conditioning (fitness, size etc) are still what is separating us from the top 8.
When our younger players all have 50 games and a few pre-seasons behind them they will be something to see.

We do still need to fill some gaps though.

Contested marking is a problem. I think a strong key forward would help and also allow guys like stringer, jones and crameri to function better in their own right if they aren't the main focus.
We do need that go to man when things are bogged down and we need to kick to a pack. Currently we just kick it to Minson and hope he can spoil it for a throw in in these situations. Someone who can be a threat can open the ground for counter attacks and bring others into the game more often.

Some speed in the middle would be nice. Griffen and Cooney are all we have and they aren't at the top of their games at the moment. Tutt probably isn't ever going to dominate. Not much depth here.

We saw a glimpse of the future post Murphy with JJ, Darley stepping up on the weekend.
Who missed Higgins and his slow pace? JJ was at his best and opened the game up beautifully for us on many occasions.
Darley's skills were evident, made one blunder when he should of just taken the game on to draw the player. He'll learn but he seems to be a player in the Murphy mould.
I still would like some more line breaking speed across half back.

Key defenders post Morris is the other main concern.
Roughead is clearly our best tall. Fletcher and Talia still have a way to go to develop their bodies and learn their craft, I think there is room for a classy tall defender if available.

[jeemak]

I tend to agree with a lot of what you say above Cyberdoggie.

We need to be on the look out for some more depth at our bookends in terms of talent that can play tall and strong. I don't like our prospects of lading absolutely elite KPP talent through trading just yet, we haven't ever been able to so in the past and I know this regime is a very much build from the inside conservative one. I think this year we will draft for another key defender and attempt to develop our forwards for one more year.

Jack Redpath needs to develop his body. Whilst he's a big guy he still looks physically under developed, particularly in the lower half. He'll be an absolute monster once he matures though, and it will be great if he can turn into a player who can use his size and strength eventually.

We still lack pace. While I think there's a spot for Higgins forward and through the middle, I'm not entirely sure the half back line is for him even if I think he's actually had some good games there this year. We need to insert some pace on to the list to offset the lack of place players like Shaun.

Whether we look to add another ruck to the list this year or next is up for debate. I don't want us to wait too long and would see if there's a potential rookie candidate to work with over a few years as a minimum.

One of the major issues I had with the Eade era was that every time we were calling out for an average performer to be sent back to Williamstown we were always faced with the situation of having insufficient numbers in the twos really banging down the door of the ones and putting on some selection pressure. While Eade seemed averse to making a lot of changes, I don't just think that came down to preferences through favouritism.

I don't think we'll get that issue with this group.

[FrediKanoute]

Watching the game against Gold Coast it struck me that we just have to move heaven and earth to get a key forward. We can't allow our developing midfielders to get to the same point Cooney, Griffin, West, Boyd etc got to without someone to kick it to. We have a wonderful group of talented midfielders. We have to target a Patton (or equivalent) and just get him. Yes it will cost us, but honestly if we get the right guy it will be worth it.

[wimberga]

Watching the game against Gold Coast it struck me that we just have to move heaven and earth to get a key forward. We can't allow our developing midfielders to get to the same point Cooney, Griffin, West, Boyd etc got to without someone to kick it to. We have a wonderful group of talented midfielders. We have to target a Patton (or equivalent) and just get him. Yes it will cost us, but honestly if we get the right guy it will be worth it.

Agree Freddie - do you think we could convince Patton/Boyd/Sam Day to want to come to the dogs? and could we convince GWS/GC to accept a deal like Pick 5 + Dahlhaus to get it done?

[LostDoggy]

I honestly don't feel like we can afford to lose Dahlhaus.. Even with how good he's been and the acolades he's recieved from some here this year, i still feel he's being underrated by most in what he bring to us. He is an absolute workhorse and if not for some poor finishing in front of the sticks he would be pushing Bruest for AA selection.

Clay Smith would be someone I think we can afford to lose.

[always right]

Pick 5 plus Dahlhaus...wow, that would really hurt. Not sure Sam Day is worth that sort of sacrifice either. You would want Patton as a minimum and there are even doubts as to whether he would be the answer.

Clay Smith is a more palatable option than Dahl and I understand you have to give up something good to make a big play like this but not sure other clubs necessarily see the value of Clay like we do yet...simply because he hasn't been on the park enough.

[FrediKanoute]

Dahlhaus is a non-tradeable. I don't think Smith would get the job done. Its tough, but Dahlhaus for me is untouchable. Small hardworking forwards are gold and we haven't had one since Bamblett.

[josie]

Dalhaus is very, very popular with our young supporters too and I think it would be too devastating to let him go. I think Clay Smith is an absolute ripper too & I would be very sad to see him go. Got to give something to get something but geez to give up one of these two will hurt. Do you think they would be interested in Higgins+pick 5 (as has been suggested by BullDogsTragic in another post)?

[wimberga]

I don't think that any player is non-tradeable.

I agree that I would love to keep Dalhaus but I am aware that of all our players, he would demand the highest price (bar perhaps Roughy or Libba, both of which I would keep ahead of Dahlhaus). Additionally, we have a list brimming with smalls across Hrovat, Honeychurch and Hunter. If we are chasing quality, we need to offer quality. I think back to when Geelong needed a ruckman, and basically had to get rid of one of their youngs guns (Bartel, Maloney or Kelly) to nab Ottens.

Pick 5 + Dahlhaus to me is the most I would be prepared to offer, but also the trade most likely to command something of absolute quality. But I do stress that I love dahlhaus and if we were to do this trade, I would want us to get absolute quality. Anything less and we will keep him.

As others have alluded to, I don't think think teams would see the attraction to get rid of a KPF for a pick + Smith, just doesn't have the runs on the board yet.

[Scorlibo]

Pick 5 for one of those guys, sure - fair price. Dahlhaus, sure - fair price. Both? That's madness. Lukey has 10 years of being a top-line player in front of him. The players we're talking about are themselves simply top draft picks. Would anyone give up Dahlhaus to upgrade from pick 5 to pick 2? I doubt it.

It all depends on the manner of the player leaving. If Cameron/Patton/Boyd are put on the trade table by GWS and they say, 'highest offer gets him' then we will have to pay overs. However, if we manage to get one of those guys to nominate to come to the Bulldogs with a big carrot then we hold all the cards and pick 5 will be enough. Just like with Crameri.

[jeemak]

At this stage I see Macrae as a fair swap for Patton, Bontempelli not far behind Macrae in terms of value. Along with Libba, those two are our most valuable players right now.

Dahlhaus for mine is a rung below, only because of his lack of set shot class.

I don't think a top five pick plus any of those players is reasonable, though that's not to say it's not what it would take to get the deal done.

This is why it's problematic trading for key forwards of any note, you always get ripped off. There's a good reason why the only clubs that have them were lucky enough for the most part for them to fall into their laps, or have ridiculous spending money beyond the means of other clubs.

[bulldogtragic]

At this stage I see Macrae as a fair swap for Patton, Bontempelli not far behind Macrae in terms of value. Along with Libba, those two are our most valuable players right now.

Dahlhaus for mine is a rung below, only because of his lack of set shot class.

I don't think a top five pick plus any of those players is reasonable, though that's not to say it's not what it would take to get the deal done.

This is why it's problematic trading for key forwards of any note, you always get ripped off. There's a good reason why the only clubs that have them were lucky enough for the most part for them to fall into their laps, or have ridiculous spending money beyond the means of other clubs.

If you're prepared to enter a win/win trade it can happen though. Geelong people loved Moloney, but Geelong people remember Brad Ottens helping them set up a dynasty. Or you take aim at a kid who you expect to take the next step like jack Gunston or Kennedy in the Judd Deal which is still bearing fruit - or a player who could move into a KPF position like a Fraser Gehrig. I think you just need some imagination and be open to the right deal. I think we are tinged by horrible memories of it going wrong, but the Hawks, Dockers and Swans are great trading clubs I just hope one day it happens for us with a KPP that kicks on from the trade.

[LostDoggy]

What about something like...Easton Wood and pick 5/6 for Tom Boyd and pick 20/21

[bulldogtragic]

What about something like...Easton Wood and pick 5/6 for Tom Boyd and pick 20/21

I like the effort, but I think the test is always finding a price you think is borderline too much to give up as being somewhere around the mark.

Getting a potential once in a generation talent (so some believe he his) who went Pick 1 easily, for pick 5 a year later and Wood for 21 would be so much a massive win for us I'd almost feel bad for them. Almost, but not. :)

Boyd was a Carlton supporter too, so he fails the good people test.

[boydogs]

I like the effort, but I think the test is always finding a price you think is borderline too much to give up as being somewhere around the mark.

What about removing the GWS pick 21 coming back to us, so Wood & 5 for Boyd
I rate Easton but I would do that, based on how badly we need a quality KPF

[bulldogtragic]

What about removing the GWS pick 21 coming back to us, so Wood & 5 for Boyd
I rate Easton but I would do that, based on how badly we need a quality KPF

In a heartbeat. Let's say for instance Wright slips to 5, he looks alright to my mind, his last half against the Falcons this year was bloody impressive despite a smaller opponent. But Boyd is a far better bet. If we needed to replace him we are keeping Bob on again next year, and we might keep Young for another year and potentially draft Zaine to the tall flanker role with an eye to the future. I'm not sure why GWS would want Wood with them recruiting Shaw and with some youngsters coming through. I think that if we really think we are going to improve next year, then this is the lowest pick and thus the highest trading pick we will have until we peak and repeat the cycle. On that basis we should consider every option to snag a KPF, but it's going to cost, it's just the way it is if we want to trade for one.

[boydogs]

I think that if we really think we are going to improve next year, then this is the lowest pick and thus the highest trading pick we will have until we peak and repeat the cycle. On that basis we should consider every option to snag a KPF, but it's going to cost, it's just the way it is if we want to trade for one.

Yep. Would GWS want Higgins? He could be the one that wants out, not sure GWS would be his choice but pick 5 & Higgins might be all we get to play with without destroying the fabric of the club and trading someone that doesn't want to go

[Scorlibo]

If Higgins goes it will be as a free agent.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Is Patton out of contract? If not, there is no way we are landing him with any kind of trade. We wont give up any of our young players that GWS may want

[chef]

We wait for years for Wood to develop, than when he arrives we trade him:confused:

Don't like it.

[Cyberdoggie]

Is Patton out of contract? If not, there is no way we are landing him with any kind of trade. We wont give up any of our young players that GWS may want

I might be wrong but i think he has another year.

[bulldogtragic]

We wait for years for Wood to develop, than when he arrives we trade him:confused:

Don't like it.

My wife is a Hawthorn tragic, she loved Mark Williams as a small but yet great goal kicking target at Hawthorn and was devastated when he was traded out. She now loves Shaun Burgoyne even more at a guess though.

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking this is the post season that could be talked about if we win this bloody cup or looking back and identifying this year's trade, FS and draft.

[chef]

My wife is a Hawthorn tragic, she loved Mark Williams as a small but yet great goal kicking target at Hawthorn and was devastated when he was traded out. She now loves Shaun Burgoyne even more at a guess though.

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking this is the post season that could be talked about if we win this bloody cup or looking back and identifying this year's trade, FS and draft.

You can put whatever spin you like on it, but when you start trading out popular guys who are happy where they are you are asking for trouble....work of the devil some may say.

Plus he's also an integral part of our backline and will leave a gapping hole.

[wimberga]

You can put whatever spin you like on it, but when you start trading out popular guys who are happy where they are you are asking for trouble....work of the devil some may say.

Plus he's also an integral part of our backline and will leave a gapping hole.

But what if the guy you bring is even more popular? what if the guy you bring in helps you win a flag?

If the club think its what needs to happen, then they have to try and make it work.

to get quality, you have to give quality. There are sensitivities at play, but macca and the club have to back themselves in.

If they think the club would be better placed retaining a player and not pursuing a trade, I am sure they will do that too.

[LostDoggy]

I might be wrong but i think he has another year.

You're spot on. He's contracted until the end of 2015.

[chef]

But what if the guy you bring is even more popular? what if the guy you bring in helps you win a flag?

If the club think its what needs to happen, then they have to try and make it work.

to get quality, you have to give quality. There are sensitivities at play, but macca and the club have to back themselves in.

If they think the club would be better placed retaining a player and not pursuing a trade, I am sure they will do that too.

And what if it shows the youngers that they're just a number and we can just flog you off at any time if something more shiny comes along?

I get the feeling with Macca that this would go against the grain of what he's trying to build at our footy club anyway.

[Greystache]

And what if it shows the youngers that they're just a number and we can just flog you off at any time if something more shiny comes along?

They'll flog themselves off just as Ward and Harbrow did the second something more shiny came along. Nothing new there.

Should we be the only club not looking to trade so we can keep our valued position as the club young talent leaves from more than anywhere else? This view some supporters have that our players are more engaged with our culture because we treat them better is ridiculous.

Do what's best for the team, individuals are going to make their own choices regardless.

[wimberga]

They'll flog themselves off just as Ward and Harbrow did the second something more shiny came along. Nothing new there.


This is basically the crux of it.

Of course Chef if the players were going to react in that way, then it would need to be considered. But ultimately, its a professional sport. Players have the right to move home, chase money and chase flags just as much as clubs.

[chef]

Each to their own.

I'm pretty sure Macca wont be pushing important players out the door of they dont want to leave.

[chef]

Ward and Harbrow are pretty exceptional circumstances too.

[Scorlibo]

If I'm a player at the club and I see a good mate of mine shipped off without them wanting to go then I'd be a) pissed off and b) looking over my shoulder. People can have different views on how important it is to treat players like people, and the balance between that and trading for the ideal team on paper. There's no right answer, but a couple of things hold true: everything is circumstantial, no single attitude will net the best results time after time - and given this, sitting back in the armchair, tapping one's fingertips together Mr. Burns style and hatching plans has to be the wrong way to go about things.

[Bulldog4life]

My wife is a Hawthorn tragic, she loved Mark Williams as a small but yet great goal kicking target at Hawthorn and was devastated when he was traded out. She now loves Shaun Burgoyne even more at a guess though.

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking this is the post season that could be talked about if we win this bloody cup or looking back and identifying this year's trade, FS and draft.

Could be a thread in itself. Whose wife/husband/partner is a fanatical supporter of another team? I'm lucky that mine is a fanatical bulldog supporter....it was non negotiable.:)

[Scorlibo]

Could be a thread in itself. Whose wife/husband/partner is a fanatical supporter of another team? I'm lucky that mine is a fanatical bulldog supporter....it was non negotiable.:)

My girlfriend is a mad Bombers supporter, but a Bulldogs membership has been forced upon her in the last 2 years ;).

[comrade]

My girlfriend is a mad Bombers supporter, but a Bulldogs membership has been forced upon her in the last 2 years ;).

Enjoy Sunday...

[bulldogtragic]

Could be a thread in itself. Whose wife/husband/partner is a fanatical supporter of another team? I'm lucky that mine is a fanatical bulldog supporter....it was non negotiable.:)

2008 with Buddy in the QF was awful... And she said nothing either, it was the worst i've ever felt at a game. But on the flip side I got taken to Hawks v Carlton where Buddy got the ton and Fevola got to 99. Was as much theatrical fun as any game I didn't care about.

[Twodogs]

2008 with Buddy in the QF was awful... And she said nothing either, it was the worst i've ever felt at a game. But on the flip side I got taken to Hawks v Carlton where Buddy got the ton and Fevola got to 99. Was as much theatrical fun as any game I didn't care about.


I was at the "Line In The Sand" game between Eesendon and Hawthorn. I was working. One of the people I took was a little old lady I'd known for years and had never even heard raise her voice.

She was standing on her seat raining expletives over the crowd, ground and players like a swearing machine. People were staring at her with their mouths open rather than watching the fight. After it was all over she sat down and said "I really, really enjoyed that, I haven't enjoyed myself like that for years"

[bulldogtragic]

I was at the "Line In The Sand" game between Eesendon and Hawthorn. I was working. One of the people I took was a little old lady I'd known for years and had never even heard raise her voice.

She was standing on her seat raining expletives over the crowd, ground and players like a swearing machine. People were staring at her with their mouths open rather than watching the fight. After it was all over she sat down and said "I really, really enjoyed that, I haven't enjoyed myself like that for years"

I love when people tell me stories that make me jealous... This is one such occasion! :)

[josie]

Got a Bomber friend who is normally so gentle. At the footy a decade or more ago (despite the Bombers flogging the crap out of us at the time) she was yelling "Bury 'em". I still enjoy catching up with this dear friend. Just not at the footy.

Feral opposition supporters who happen to be friends <== this deserves another thread.

[bulldogtragic]

Got a Bomber friend who is normally so gentle. At the footy a decade or more ago (despite the Bombers flogging the crap out of us at the time) she was yelling "Bury 'em". I still enjoy catching up with this dear friend. Just not at the footy.

Feral opposition supporters who happen to be friends <== this deserves another thread.

Funny you mention that, my wife (then girlfriend) took me to the footy for about a third date type thing. At that time I still had Freddie in my pocket, but it didn't mean much... There was this dead set meat head, about 190cm tall and easy over 120kg, in front of us chirping. So my wife in her infinite wisdom started baiting him with humour which he didn't understand so he started having a dip towards her. So I'm thinking 'crap' for so many reasons. So then two young women in their infinite wisdom who were sitting next to us thought him getting even angrier was very amusing (which it was...) so they started giving it to him as the Hawks were getting well beaten. At one point in the last quarter he moved quite aggressively and told the young women he was a boxer and would get angry and could knock people out. So there I was thinking how to stop him making a punch as I was about to jump (headlock with a Brian Lake choke take down was going to be the go, he was a monster) a group of about 20 blokes screamed at him to sit the **** down or **** **** **** they're only girls you ***** *****. Thank Christ! So he looked us over (I think he couldn't count how many of us were prepared to stop him from acts of violence on young women) and toned the threats down, but then the young women kept giving it him and despite the vein on his head popping, he remained abusive but not violent. His team won and all he could do was be abusive back to everyone as his song started. Seriously you team wins and you instinct is not to enjoy it...

Footy can be an amazing snapshot of mankind.

[hotdog]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-bulldog-light-on-the-hill-out-west-20140719-zurfj.html

I too sense that we are watching change before us. Midway through this year my thoughts and feelings were doom and gloom. We were destined to be starved of a second flag and would likely be relocated or out of existence within the next 10 years. There seems to be a shift and I am now a lot more upbeat. Whilst it will be bloody difficult to challenge in the coming 5 years with two new clubs in contention I can see a shift (albeit only slight) where we are getting media recognition for being an important cog in the make up of the league. The AFL love a happy ending. No doubt if GWS and GCS win their flags the jungle drums will start beating for the Vic clubs that effectively made it happen and justice AFL style will be served. This may not be direct or obvious but I just sense that if there is something that Gil and his band of merry men can do to give them a success story (and we would be after 60 + years in the wilderness) they may just provide a little extra to ensure it happens. Its just a feeling but I am alluding to a draft pick, free agency compo, a favourable draw etc...The AFL is a competition but the administrators of our game like to ensure that certain results fall certain ways. ie Sydney Swans. In terms of a pecking order we will be nearing the top of the "desired results" table after the expantion teams. A flag may not be as far away as I thought a few years ago??

[Mofra]

You can put whatever spin you like on it, but when you start trading out popular guys who are happy where they are you are asking for trouble....work of the devil some may say.
You also destroy any chance of players staying for less money than they could otherwise get on the open market - and we've had quite a few in recent years (including our current captain).

[Twodogs]

You also destroy any chance of players staying for less money than they could otherwise get on the open market - and we've had quite a few in recent years (including our current captain).

I was thinking the same way but then Geelong traded out Maloney to get Ottens. If you can sell it as a sacrifice somebody has to make in order to turn the list into a premiership winning combination then I think you could get both outcomes.


Geelong faced and overcame the same obstacle. Was Bmac there then? King might have been captain so he may have seen those decisions being made.

[bulldogtragic]

I was thinking the same way but then Geelong traded out Maloney to get Ottens. If you can sell it as a sacrifice somebody has to make in order to turn the list into a premiership winning combination then I think you could get both outcomes.


Geelong faced and overcame the same obstacle. Was Bmac there then? King might have been captain so he may have seen those decisions being made.

I'm pretty certain both Men were there at the time.

[Twodogs]

I was thinking the same way but then Geelong traded out Maloney to get Ottens. If you can sell it as a sacrifice somebody has to make in order to turn the list into a premiership winning combination then I think you could get both outcomes.


Geelong faced and overcame the same obstacle. Was Bmac there then? King might have been captain so he may have seen those decisions being made.


I'm pretty certain both Men were there at the time.

Then have been involved in making that decision. They would know what criteria Geelong used in deciding which player would get the trade done without completely destroying the fabric of the playing group.

[bulldogtragic]

Then have been involved in making that decision. They would know what criteria Geelong used in deciding which player would get the trade done without completely destroying the fabric of the playing group.

I also think they tried to work out the best case scenario for Moloney, I'm pretty certain he was a Melbourne supporter and tried to get a silver lining for him (it was a bigger trade from memory) and they also weren't expected to be the basket case he left. Makes it easier to sell it to the group that we did we need to do for the group, but went out of our way to help (player) get to the club they wanted. Then (player) doesn't hopefully ring his old team mates bagging out the club ongoing. It's delicate, but done right is a master stroke.