Demons ask for priority pick - any other woofers outraged?

[josie]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-08-18/dees-ask-for-priority-pick


Why should they get a priority pick and push us further back in the draft order?

They've stuffed up for years with their drafting, tanked, have the messiah as coach and paying oodles of money for him, will be helped with extra $ from AFL (granted we will too..) and they then ask for a handout in the form of a priority pick?

If they receive it I'll be livid. I am now just at the thought of it.

Hey, let's just underachieve, tank, play like we do not care for the jumper and then ask for a handout.

I feel sorry for their fans but really, this makes me want to throw up.

[Hotdog60]

I'm with you, Josie.
They should learn to manage themselves better. Give them an extra pick and they only trade it or select a dud.

[GVGjr]

It's not fair that they are asking for more access to the top end talent until they have demonstrated they can develop players the right way. Too many highly rated youngsters have simply gone backwards after arriving at Melbourne.

They need help but not in the form of a PP. The AFL should look to fund a development coach or two to assist the club improve the players they have. You don't put more petrol into a car you have neglected. Get the motor fixed first before filling up.

[bulldogtragic]

So pick 2, possibly pick 3 for Frawley if he leaves and pick 4. Why not gave them the top 10?

[josie]

It's not fair that they are asking for more access to the top end talent until they have demonstrated they can develop players the right way. Too many highly rated youngsters have simply gone backwards after arriving at Melbourne.

They need help but not in the form of a PP. The AFL should look to fund a development coach or two to assist the club improve the players they have. You don't put more petrol into a car you have neglected. Get the motor fixed first before filling up.

I like your analogy. Hopefully this is the type of help the AFL offers instead of another high pick.

[Remi Moses]

It's not fair that they are asking for more access to the top end talent until they have demonstrated they can develop players the right way. Too many highly rated youngsters have simply gone backwards after arriving at Melbourne.

They need help but not in the form of a PP. The AFL should look to fund a development coach or two to assist the club improve the players they have. You don't put more petrol into a car you have neglected. Get the motor fixed first before filling up.

Right on. How about getting coaching, development stuff right.

[Mofra]

They need help but not in the form of a PP. The AFL should look to fund a development coach or two to assist the club improve the players they have. You don't put more petrol into a car you have neglected. Get the motor fixed first before filling up.
Bingo - but I'm pretty sure they did get AFL money year before last to help their football department. They've had their assistance.

It's bullshit - if anything, we deserve more assistance than Melbourne for our efforts with migrant communities in the West/South West areas of Melbourne, the fastest growing area in the country and one with potentially a high % of soccer fans to be converted to AFL.

[azabob]

They need help but not in the form of a PP. The AFL should look to fund a development coach or two to assist the club improve the players they have. You don't put more petrol into a car you have neglected. Get the motor fixed first before filling up.

The AFL has funded their current senior coach, but he doesn't even want to take responsibility for this years poor performance, only good ones.

Still seems a very toxic and blame environment.

What person in their right mind would go their and destroy their career? Especially when the man in charge contines to blame everyone else.

[lemmon]

Ample priority picks, ample monetary assistance, the AFL has hand-picked and bankrolled their coach and CEO...it's time to remove the safety net if this club is going to be anything but pitiful...it's like breastfeeding a 6 year old.

[Hotdog60]

From the AFL site:
Its request will not be without controversy as the Demons have bungled several first-round draft picks since 2006 and were fined $500,000 after an investigation into tanking cleared the club of the offence in 2013.

The club has already used priority picks on Sam Blease (pick 17, 2008), Tom Scully (pick 1, 2009) and used first-round draft picks since 2007 on Cale Morton (pick 4, 2007), Jack Watts (pick 1, 2008), Scully and Jack Trengove (pick 1 and 2, 2009), Lucas Cook (pick 12, 2010), Jimmy Toumpas (pick 4, 2012) and Christian Salem (pick 9, 2013).

It also traded its first-round pick in 2011 to the Brisbane Lions for Mitch Clark and traded pick 3 to gain access to Jesse Hogan in the mini-draft in 2012.

It also traded pick 2 to Greater Western Sydney for Dom Tyson and pick 9 in 2013.

They really need help in the football department.

[Twodogs]

They want another low DP but they'll be hawking their last #1 pick at trade time.

[Greystache]

So pick 2, possibly pick 3 for Frawley if he leaves and pick 4. Why not gave them the top 10?

I don't think that AFL could in good conscious ruin that many young careers all in one year!

[bornadog]

We need to complain to the AFL and strongly appose it.

[The Underdog]

They can have all of the end of 4th round picks they want. Otherwise they can get knotted. They are surely taking the piss.

[Go_Dogs]

Bingo - but I'm pretty sure they did get AFL money year before last to help their football department. They've had their assistance.

Agreed, they have - but given the money the AFL has already invested if a persuasive case is put forward I'm sure they'll continue to get whatever they ask for. I just hope the pick is an end of first round selection, or with their second round pick - that's the counter argument that has the best case of succeeding (unfortunately) in my view.

[Webby]

It won't happen. It can't happen.

Melbourne's rap sheet:
2009 - "not found guilty" of tanking
Fined $500k despite "not tanking" but fine was actually never enforced!!!
In addition, money provided to bail them out and pay for Roos's salary demands
AFL stepped in and gave them board appointments
AFL stepped in and appointed a CEO
AFL stepped in and appointed them a new coach
AFL granted them the money to pay the coach
AFL provide two priority picks for loss of Scully, yet give WBFC just one for Ward (the better player)
To add fuel to that, Scully and Trengove were picked up via priority pick. Then when Scully left, they picked up two priority picks - so that effectively was a priority pick on a priority pick on a priority pick!
In 2007, they received a priority pick
In 2008, they received pick 1
In 2009, they received both pick 1 & pick 2 as a priority
In 2011, they traded their top pick for Mitch Clark
In 2012, they were granted a priority pick 2 in the mini-draft - Jesse Hogan
Then in the main draft, they took the coveted Jimmy Toumpas at 4 & also received Jack Viney for pick 26 after the AFL owned and administered GWS suspiciously failed to nominate him..
In 2013, they traded their picks 2 and 20 for Dom Tyson and pick 9 (and a swap of later picks)

Melbourne's problem is not its lack of early drafting and priority picks!! It is its poor culture, its inability to develop talent and its complete lack of backbone. In acknowledging this, what does club administration do?

A) Continue to focus on addressing this issue; or
B) Publicly lobby for yet another handout - thus further eroding the fabric and reputation of the club

They are just f#%king hopeless! Would the competition actually be poorer if they ceased to exist?

[bornadog]

It won't happen. It can't happen.

Melbourne's rap sheet:
2009 - not found guilty of tanking
Fined $500k despite not tanking but fine never enforced
In addition, money provided to bail them out and pay for Roos's salary demands
AFL stepped in and gave them board appointments
AFL stepped in and appointed a CEO
AFL stepped in and appointed them a new coach
AFL granted them the money to pay the coach
AFL provide two priority picks for loss of Scully, yet give WBFC just one for Ward (the better player)
To add fuel to that, Scully and Trengove were picked up via priority pick. The when Scully left, they picked up two priority picks - so that effectively was a priority pick on a priority pick on a priority pick!
In 2007, they received a priority pick
In 2008, they received pick 1
In 2009, they received both pick 1 & pick 2 as a priority
In 2011, they traded their top pick for Mitch Clarke
In 2012, they were granted a priority pick 2 in the mini-draft - Jesse Hogan
Then in the main draft, they took the coveted Jimmy Toumpas at 4 & also received Jack Viney for pick 26 after the AFL owned and administered GWS suspiciously failed to nominate him..
In 2013, they traded their picks 2 and 20 for Dom Tyson and pick 9 (and a swap of later picks)

Melbourne's problem is not its lack of early drafting and priority picks!! It is its poor culture, its inability to develop talent and its complete lack of backbone. In acknowledging this, what does club administration do?

A) Continue to focus on addressing this issue; or
B) Publicly lobby for yet another handout - thus further eroding the fabric and reputation of the club

They are just f#%king hopeless! Would the competition actually be poorer if they ceased to exist?

fantastic post a must email to the AFL

[jeemak]

The draft tampering by the AFL has to stop.

The Demons have selected some good kids and developed them poorly, they have traded away picks for players with varying success, and they have picked some poor players.

Sure, they lost Scully but were more than adequately compensated especially if you consider his underwhelming output.

The only way they will improve as a club is if they actually take some responsibility for themselves and improve their terrible culture. They have enough to develop on their list.

A good article here:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-08-19/forget-the-handouts-demons

How can a side that has beaten Essendon, Carlton, Adelaide and Richmond this year deserve a priority pick?

[Murphy'sLore]

Have they ever heard of patience? They got their messiah, but it's going to take even the miracle-worker longer than a year to turn the place around. There is no silver bullet, it's going to take hard work and yes, time.

[Webby]

The draft tampering by the AFL has to stop.

The Demons have selected some good kids and developed them poorly, they have traded away picks for players with varying success, and they have picked some poor players.

Sure, they lost Scully but were more than adequately compensated especially if you consider his underwhelming output.

The only way they will improve as a club is if they actually take some responsibility for themselves and improve their terrible culture. They have enough to develop on their list.

A good article here:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-08-19/forget-the-handouts-demons

How can a side that has beaten Essendon, Carlton, Adelaide and Richmond this year deserve a priority pick?

I hadn't seen that article. Says it perfectly. Good to see the journos are onto it.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I hadn't seen that article. Says it perfectly. Good to see the journos are onto it.

Barrett actually wrote a very similar article last year when Melbourne asked for a priority pick. Melbourne were denied it and should be again this year.

[Murphy'sLore]

It's interesting to me that everyone bangs on about the importance of having a 'good culture' and understand how that builds on itself, but seem reluctant to recognise that a bad culture can be just as powerful, if not more so. It's not so easy to just 'get over it' and move on. It's like the whole club is depressed, essentially. Throwing a shiny present at them isn't going to make any difference at all until change comes from within.

[Dancin' Douggy]

It won't happen. It can't happen.

Melbourne's rap sheet:
2009 - "not found guilty" of tanking
Fined $500k despite "not tanking" but fine was actually never enforced!!!
In addition, money provided to bail them out and pay for Roos's salary demands
AFL stepped in and gave them board appointments
AFL stepped in and appointed a CEO
AFL stepped in and appointed them a new coach
AFL granted them the money to pay the coach
AFL provide two priority picks for loss of Scully, yet give WBFC just one for Ward (the better player)
To add fuel to that, Scully and Trengove were picked up via priority pick. Then when Scully left, they picked up two priority picks - so that effectively was a priority pick on a priority pick on a priority pick!
In 2007, they received a priority pick
In 2008, they received pick 1
In 2009, they received both pick 1 & pick 2 as a priority
In 2011, they traded their top pick for Mitch Clark
In 2012, they were granted a priority pick 2 in the mini-draft - Jesse Hogan
Then in the main draft, they took the coveted Jimmy Toumpas at 4 & also received Jack Viney for pick 26 after the AFL owned and administered GWS suspiciously failed to nominate him..
In 2013, they traded their picks 2 and 20 for Dom Tyson and pick 9 (and a swap of later picks)

Melbourne's problem is not its lack of early drafting and priority picks!! It is its poor culture, its inability to develop talent and its complete lack of backbone. In acknowledging this, what does club administration do?

A) Continue to focus on addressing this issue; or
B) Publicly lobby for yet another handout - thus further eroding the fabric and reputation of the club

They are just f#%king hopeless! Would the competition actually be poorer if they ceased to exist?

Very well put Webby. Leave out the last line but send this to everyone you can think of. The run home on SEN for one.
The Herald sun, The Age. etc etc.

[Sedat]

It is incredulous and shameless for Melbourne to ask for further assistance. But then again they have been given handout after handout (thanks for summarising, Webby) and are accustomed to the handout culture - that is why they will never proactively get their act together of their own volition.

[Dancin' Douggy]

pa. thet. ic. Melbourne.

[Bulldog4life]

They should be ashamed to even suggest they would like a priority pick. They have an abundance of early picks on their list. They are a hopeless case.

[Mantis]

The AFL has funded their current senior coach, but he doesn't even want to take responsibility for this years poor performance, only good ones.

Still seems a very toxic and blame environment.

What person in their right mind would go their and destroy their career? Especially when the man in charge contines to blame everyone else.

It's all about 'Brand Roos'.. The most selfish person in the game.

[Go_Dogs]

They should be ashamed to even suggest they would like a priority pick. They have an abundance of early picks on their list. They are a hopeless case.

Even the players have come out and say they stand for nothing. Roos has taken a poor approach blaming their past - the focus should have been on looking forward to a better culture, not continuing to lament previous mistakes and giving the players an out (as well as himself) for dishing up woeful performances.

[azabob]

So now Roos has said today he will trade away their early draft picks again....

[Hotdog60]

So now Roos has said today he will trade away their early draft picks again....

That's fine with me, I'll trade Howard for their 1st pick and Austin for their 2nd.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It is incredulous and shameless for Melbourne to ask for further assistance. But then again they have been given handout after handout (thanks for summarising, Webby) and are accustomed to the handout culture - that is why they will never proactively get their act together of their own volition.

Seconded.

I don't even really want to comment on it, such is the despair I have for their audacity.

They should fold.

[LostDoggy]

It is a shame, they have some bloody loyal supporters. I can understand why they asked the question, they have had a decade as a basket case, and were a bit stiff losing Mitch Clarke. I actually think they need a coach like Macca at this point, not a gun for hire in Roos. How can he expect the team to invest in him when they know he'll be off before they know it? Mark Neald really killed them, he seemed like a pig of a man, and he couldn't inspire a dog to take a shit.

[LostDoggy]

That's fine with me, I'll trade Howard for their 1st pick and Austin for their 2nd.

What a terrible thing to say. If we traded them to Melbourne they'd have their careers ruined and turn into horrible AFL footballers.

[lemmon]

It is a shame, they have some bloody loyal supporters. I can understand why they asked the question, they have had a decade as a basket case, and were a bit stiff losing Mitch Clarke. I actually think they need a coach like Macca at this point, not a gun for hire in Roos. How can he expect the team to invest in him when they know he'll be off before they know it? Mark Neald really killed them, he seemed like a pig of a man, and he couldn't inspire a dog to take a shit.
Bit harsh on Neeld, for a first time, young coach that was just about the worst gig imaginable.

Dean Bailey should have been their Macca, strong development background and took over when the list was at it's youngest after the decent Daniher period. They panicked after Geelong smacked them and he did have the playing okay footy. His win/loss stats match up quite reasonably with Macca. Would have been interesting to see where he took them with another year or two.

[Mantis]

So now Roos has said today he will trade away their early draft picks again....

Which is totally reasonable if they can broker a deal as per trading pick 2 to GWS.. I think it was a win/win for both parties.

[ledge]

So they want a priority pick but they don't want it, so it's not to rebuild its to take an older player who will probably be gone in 5 years when they completely stuff up his football career and they are in the same hole they were in when they got him?
Who would want to go there ?
How does another club talk a player into going to Melbourne ??
A good player would say shove it, I'm going somewhere else.

[GVGjr]

They want trade currency. They are trying to get a 3 for the price of 2

[LostDoggy]

Just on a side note. Is Mitch Clark ever likely to play again? I know he has had some mental issues, and am not downplaying those for a minute, but people's health is ever-changing and would another chance at a family club with a better culture be something that could be beneficial for him? Health and well-being first, but it's truly such a waste of immense talent, I think he would rather look back later in his life and say he gave it another crack.

[Topdog]

Just on a side note. Is Mitch Clark ever likely to play again? I know he has had some mental issues, and am not downplaying those for a minute, but people's health is ever-changing and would another chance at a family club with a better culture be something that could be beneficial for him? Health and well-being first, but it's truly such a waste of immense talent, I think he would rather look back later in his life and say he gave it another crack.

These were his last public comments

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/retired-melbourne-star-mitch-clark-breaks-his-silence-revealing-he-felt-for-his-personal-safety/story-fni5f91a-1226944776599

he should stay away IMO. Not worth it.

[LostDoggy]

Hadn't read that, thanks. Yep that's good enough for me, long may his improved health and perspective continue.

[bornadog]

Saints say if Melbourne gets a PP then they should

[LostDoggy]

Saints say if Melbourne gets a PP then they should

They get their free kicks on the ground!

[Webby]

Saints say if Melbourne gets a PP then they should

Although I despise the 'Aints, you can't question their logic on this. They are, after all, worse than Melbourne at present.
Simple, sensible solution: Don't give priority picks to anyone. It won't happen in any case.

[wimberga]

Although I despise the 'Aints, you can't question their logic on this. They are, after all, worse than Melbourne at present.
Simple, sensible solution: Don't give priority picks to anyone. It won't happen in any case.

Agree with this. Go with the sensible solution.

The only other thing I could see being helpful to Melbourne would be something along the line of a mid second round pick which they HAVE to trade for a player or lose. If they don't use it, thats all well and good. If they can get a semi-decent player at that point in the draft, they can benefit and other clubs are not as adversely affected (particularly with regards to those precious 1st rounders).

I'd prefer them to get nothing but any thoughts on this idea?

[bornadog]

Agree with this. Go with the sensible solution.

The only other thing I could see being helpful to Melbourne would be something along the line of a mid second round pick which they HAVE to trade for a player or lose. If they don't use it, thats all well and good. If they can get a semi-decent player at that point in the draft, they can benefit and other clubs are not as adversely affected (particularly with regards to those precious 1st rounders).
I'd prefer them to get nothing but any thoughts on this idea?

That would be better than a PP. All a PP does is piss off all the other clubs who are forced to take a later pick. We have had enough of the GC, GWS and PP's this last 10 years to effect all the bottom clubs one way or the other.

[Murphy'sLore]

I'm not in favour of priority picks pushing everyone else down the order, it seems fundamentally unfair. But it seems the AFL have decided to keep priority picks for the instance when a whole team is wiped out in a plane crash.

I probably only think it's unfair because we're not going to get one.

[lemmon]

Agree with this. Go with the sensible solution.

The only other thing I could see being helpful to Melbourne would be something along the line of a mid second round pick which they HAVE to trade for a player or lose. If they don't use it, thats all well and good. If they can get a semi-decent player at that point in the draft, they can benefit and other clubs are not as adversely affected (particularly with regards to those precious 1st rounders).

I'd prefer them to get nothing but any thoughts on this idea?

Is more tinkering seriously the solution? I've heard people talk about draft concessions, an increased salary cap, exemption from the footy department tax, trades that must be picked...surely it's time the club simply sorted itself out? For a competition that is supposed to be cyclically dictated by boom and bust periods of club success we sure do love convoluting things.

[bornadog]

AFL knocks back a Melbourne priority pick


The AFL has knocked back Melbourne's request for a priority selection at the upcoming national draft.The Demons had made a request for a priority pick, which are only awarded at the discretion of the AFL commission, which discussed the request on Monday and decided against granting the Demons an extra pick.
Melbourne was informed verbally on Monday and officially on Tuesday.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-knocks-back-a-melbourne-priority-pick-20140923-10ky43.html#ixzz3E7TLA2ZT

[Daughter of the West]

AFL knocks back a Melbourne priority pick



Good.

[Scraggers]

Good.

Ditto

[LostDoggy]

Ditto

Here here

[ledge]

Why should they get one if they haven't got their development in order and stuff up another players career, that's probably the AFLs thinking.
As for us we should ask, we were given bugger all for Ward and have had to wear all the GWS and GC priority picks in front of us taking all the tall forwards and our development team has been up to standard.

[1eyedog]

Suck it.

[GVGjr]

Lets hope this knock back doesn't strengthen their Frawley compensation claims.

Mid first round is the likely compensation for Frawley.

[Remi Moses]

Lets hope this knock back doesn't strengthen their Frawley compensation claims.

Mid first round is the likely compensation for Frawley.

Hope you're right G.

[divvydan]

Lets hope this knock back doesn't strengthen their Frawley compensation claims.

Mid first round is the likely compensation for Frawley.

That would be nice but it's not one of the compensation options.

There are 5 bands for free agency compensation:
1. First round (after pick from ladder position)
2. End of first round
3. Second round
4. End of second round
5. Third round.

Dale Thomas was a similar age last year and he was worth a first round pick with an offer around $700/year for 4 years. (I've seen 600-750 quoted). Frawley would get the same band if he's offered the same or a similar amount.

[GVGjr]

That would be nice but it's not one of the compensation options.

There are 5 bands for free agency compensation:
1. First round (after pick from ladder position)
2. End of first round
3. Second round
4. End of second round
5. Third round.

Dale Thomas was a similar age last year and he was worth a first round pick with an offer around $700/year for 4 years. (I've seen 600-750 quoted). Frawley would get the same band if he's offered the same or a similar amount.

I stand to be corrected but I believe it can be one of the options much like it was for the Goddard compensation. The committee can look at it and say 3rd pick in the draft is too early and end of the first round too late. It's at this point they can recommend to the AFL that a mid round pick is appropriate.

[divvydan]

I stand to be corrected but I believe it can be one of the options much like it was for the Goddard compensation. The committee can look at it and say 3rd pick in the draft is too early and end of the first round too late. It's at this point they can recommend to the AFL that a mid round pick is appropriate.

I'm only going on what the official regulations say. It is true that there is an option for a recommendation that is different if the "formula" results in a pick that is considered unfair, however, my understanding was that it can still only be changed to one of the other options mentioned above.

The Goddard compensation pick was #13 which was directly after their first round pick that year (#12) so he was a first round selection. St Kilda traded #12 for Lee, #24 and #45 which might have made it less clear.

Had a mid 1st round pick been an option, I would've expected Franklin to qualify for it last year.

[LostDoggy]

Had a mid 1st round pick been an option, I would've expected Franklin to qualify for it last year.

Very true. If they didn't step in and change the compensation for this deal, can't see it ever happening.

[Ozza]

Why should they get one if they haven't got their development in order and stuff up another players career, that's probably the AFLs thinking.
As for us we should ask, we were given bugger all for Ward and have had to wear all the GWS and GC priority picks in front of us taking all the tall forwards and our development team has been up to standard.

I still don't understand this line of thinking. We got pick 6 for Ward....meaning we could secure Macrae after taking Stringer. I understand Melbourne got OVER-compensated for Scully - but pick 6 is certainly not bugger all - and was entirely appropriate compensation for Ward.

[Happy Days]

"In making the decision, the AFL Commission yesterday noted that Melbourne had:

- A high level of emerging talent, including Jesse Hogan, Jimmy Toumpas, ..."

HAHAHAHAHA oh man. They're not only not letting them off the hook for their terrible drafting, they're shoving it in their face. About time the AFL stopped handing them everything.

Of course, this will all be washed when the bullshit compensation criterion gifts them pick 3 for a gun backman that is such a gun that the worst team ever had to play him forward. But still funny for now.

[josie]

Is Jimmy Toumpas a poor selection? I wonder if he would thrive in a better culture. He has leg speed from videos I recall in footage prior to draft.

[soupman]

Is Jimmy Toumpas a poor selection? I wonder if he would thrive in a better culture. He has leg speed from videos I recall in footage prior to draft.

I don't think Melbourne make poor selections so much as they turn selections into poor ones. The players are good when they arrive.

[LostDoggy]

Is Jimmy Toumpas a poor selection? I wonder if he would thrive in a better culture. He has leg speed from videos I recall in footage prior to draft.

Yes. It is beyond comprehension that they selected him with where the club was/is at. They should have gone a vic based midfielder in Macrae or Wines to avoid the go-home factor.

Speaking to Melbourne mates on the weekend about this who have links inside the club they said that Todd Viney cops shit everyday for this selection. His basis at the time was, apparently, that Viney was good mates with Wines and that he didn't want this friendship continuing at AFL level in the same club.

[mjp]

Are you guys crazy? At age 18 Toumpas vs Wines wasn't even a conversation. It was Toumpas 1st, 2nd and 3rd, or everyday of the week and twice on Sunday

Todd Viney might cop a hard time for it but no-one would have criticised it at the time...if anything, the general consensus was that Wines was taken too EARLY, not too late.

[LostDoggy]

Are you guys crazy? At age 18 Toumpas vs Wines wasn't even a conversation. It was Toumpas 1st, 2nd and 3rd, or everyday of the week and twice on Sunday

Todd Viney might cop a hard time for it but no-one would have criticised it at the time...if anything, the general consensus was that Wines was taken too EARLY, not too late.

That's my take on it. With MFC being a prolonged basketcase my opinion would have been to draft VIc-based. It's not as if those players were a massive stretch. If Wines was taken too early - how early was it? Kidding if it was more than a few picks.

[Happy Days]

Are you guys crazy? At age 18 Toumpas vs Wines wasn't even a conversation. It was Toumpas 1st, 2nd and 3rd, or everyday of the week and twice on Sunday

Todd Viney might cop a hard time for it but no-one would have criticised it at the time...if anything, the general consensus was that Wines was taken too EARLY, not too late.

Toumpas has looked terrible ever since he entered the AFL and Wines has been awesome, isn't it the recruiters job to know how players will develop?

[Greystache]

Are you guys crazy? At age 18 Toumpas vs Wines wasn't even a conversation. It was Toumpas 1st, 2nd and 3rd, or everyday of the week and twice on Sunday

Todd Viney might cop a hard time for it but no-one would have criticised it at the time...if anything, the general consensus was that Wines was taken too EARLY, not too late.

I remember you saying you had serious doubt on Toumpas making it at AFL level. Basically he's a midfielder who couldn't play midfield and relied on getting easy kicks off the HBF.

[mjp]

I remember you saying you had serious doubt on Toumpas making it at AFL level. Basically he's a midfielder who couldn't play midfield and relied on getting easy kicks off the HBF.

Yes - I said that. But who am I in the large scheme of things?

Criticising Melbourne for taking Toumpas is like criticising GWS for drafting Whitfield. These guys were consensus top picks, AIS, All-Australian etc etc. I hate the group think stuff that impacts on recruiters but at the same time it is hard to criticise a bottom club for just taking the players they believe to be 'the best' when the draft comes around. It is an unbelievable risk for them to take 'someone else' - and there were massive doubts on Wines ability to be more than a slow, (very) inside mid.

When the recruiters go 'against the grain' early in drafts - and Wines was just not thought to be worth pick 2 - they are essentially tattooing 'sack me' on their foreheads if it doesn't work out. One thing I really appreciate about our recruiting staff in the last 2 years is they have really backed themselves in with Stringer, Macrae and Bontempelli...all were pretty risky selections and I doubt I would have had the guts to make them.

[ledge]

Now I heard anyone is available for trade at Melbourne, but no ones interested in Watts , go figure.
I would take him as a rookie :-) see if you can fix his head then you have a very good footballer, if not he was only a rookie anyway.

[ledge]

Doesn't make the players more attached to Melbourne if the club say they are all available for trade.. More admittance to stuffing everything up. Need to realise the players aren't the problem and this will
Only make it worse.

[craigsahibee]

Now I heard anyone is available for trade at Melbourne, but no ones interested in Watts , go figure.
I would take him as a rookie :-) see if you can fix his head then you have a very good footballer, if not he was only a rookie anyway.

I don't rate Watts at all, but nothing would give me more pleasure than for us to recruit him and turn him into a very good 100 game player for the Bulldogs. Just to stick it up Melbourne.

[Twodogs]

He has to make it. It would be a waste of such a great name.

Jimmy Toumpas. Toum-pas!

[Topdog]

One thing I really appreciate about our recruiting staff in the last 2 years is they have really backed themselves in with Stringer, Macrae and Bontempelli...all were pretty risky selections and I doubt I would have had the guts to make them.

Probably even more impressive considering there was the Howard pick before it that they are still being heavily criticised for.

[jeemak]

I'd take Watts in a heartbeat (if the price was right). Play him through the middle and off half back, and benefit from his foot skills.

He wouldn't be a number draft pick wasted by us, just an ordinary player recruited for a reasonable price expected to perform a role. He and Melbourne are cooked from an expectation versus output point of view. It's time he had a change of scenery.

[mighty_west]

I'd take Watts in a heartbeat (if the price was right). Play him through the middle and off half back, and benefit from his foot skills.

He wouldn't be a number draft pick wasted by us, just an ordinary player recruited for a reasonable price expected to perform a role. He and Melbourne are cooked from an expectation versus output point of view. It's time he had a change of scenery.

How would you fix his lazyness and not wanting to put his body on the line and find his own ball? If Paul Roos can't, well........

To me he is a downgrade on Higgins, despite being taller and being a number one pick.

[jeemak]

How would you fix his lazyness and not wanting to put his body on the line and find his own ball? If Paul Roos can't, well........

To me he is a downgrade on Higgins, despite being taller and being a number one pick.


What makes Paul Roos so great? It's not as if he has a perfect record in turning attitudes around.

I look at Watts in the same way I assume other clubs might look at Jones, perhaps a change of scenery will have a positive impact on their effort. Also, Melbourne's been a disgraceful club for a long time and I can't imagine how demoralising it must have been to have been a player there for these past six or seven years.

[boydogs]

What makes Paul Roos so great? It's not as if he has a perfect record in turning attitudes around.

Barry Hall comes to mind

[jeemak]

Barry Hall comes to mind

The Paul Roos Adulation Society does a wonderful job. Best PR machine in the business.

[bornadog]

Barry Hall comes to mind

Yep, text - Hey Barry your sacked.

[jeemak]

Yep, text - Hey Barry your sacked.

Seriously?

[bornadog]

Seriously?

Yes.. I believe so

[azabob]

Seriously?


Yes.. I believe so

I also believe this to be true.

[KT31]

Yep, text - Hey Barry your sacked.

Smart move in my opinion, would you want to be in the room alone and tell Baz he is sacked.;)

[Topdog]

Not sure Barry deserved anymore than that.

[Twodogs]

I too have heard about the alleged text. It's also been said that without consulting Barry further he announced Barry's retirement at a press conference.

[bornadog]

Not sure Barry deserved anymore than that.

Premiership Captain - come on.

[chef]

Premiership Captain - come on.

I guess it takes two to tango and by the end of his time there he had burnt quite a few bridges.

Not saying it's right, but there'd be a lot more to it than Roos just texting him.

[Scraggers]

Lots of media today saying Melbourne will use pick 2&3 to get Dangerfield.
Two problems with this ...
1. That is serious overs
2. Who says Melbourne get pick 3 for Frawley?

[Topdog]

Premiership Captain - come on.

Repeatedly broke rules and disgraced the club too.

[bornadog]

Repeatedly broke rules and disgraced the club too.

The thing with Barry, is he never did anything to disgrace the club off field. Yes he had a couple of moments in his footy career when he lost it on field, but compared to 289 games that was just a hand full. His record will stand in years to come and no one in future generations will remember the odd punch in the face.

He was All Australian 4 times, Premiership captain, kicked 746 goals, 11 seasons leading goal kicker for the three clubs he played with. He has an incredible record and in the end was shown the door with a text message from gutless wonder Roos.

[chef]

Repeatedly broke rules and disgraced the club too.

Lost the trust of the playing and coaching group as well. Brought it all on himself.

Can remember Kirk saying he'd trust Bazza with his kids but not of the footy field.

[Topdog]

Lost the trust of the playing and coaching group as well. Brought it all on himself.

Can remember Kirk saying he'd trust Bazza with his kids but not of the footy field.

Exactly, Im a massive Hall fan, absolutely loved that he came to play with us but his ending to Sydney was a sad tale and not one where you can have a lot of sympathy for him IMO.

[chef]

Exactly, Im a massive Hall fan, absolutely loved that he came to play with us but his ending to Sydney was a sad tale and not one where you can have a lot of sympathy for him IMO.

He put himself in front of the team and I guess that didn't sit well with the apparent Bloods culture that Roos and co continuely banged on about.

[bornadog]

Exactly, Im a massive Hall fan, absolutely loved that he came to play with us but his ending to Sydney was a sad tale and not one where you can have a lot of sympathy for him IMO.

My point is there is a right way and a wrong way to get rid of someone as well as a gutless way.

[Remi Moses]

My point is there is a right way and a wrong way to get rid of someone as well as a gutless way.

I agree with you . That was pretty cowardly, and I think the Messiah got that wrong

[Remi Moses]

Notice how much the dees have spruiked ad-Nauseam about pick 3 .
Pretty sure will over compensate for Frawley, as just to compensate for the non priority pick.
It's a given

[bull79]

*!*!*!*! Off melbourne! Every other team shouldn't suffer cause you got it wrong!!!

& roos is a c*#k head!

[LostDoggy]

Lol, calm down bull79, cant influence what you dont control

[ledge]

So they wanted another priority pick and would have either traded away or picked another good kid and stuffed him up.

[bulldogtragic]

So they wanted another priority pick and would have either traded away or picked another good kid and stuffed him up.
Either way we would've won. Maybe Liam Jones for that pick 3 or the guaranteed top 10 spudly type is recruited by them.

[Bulldog4life]

Melbourne get pick 3 for Frawley.

[bornadog]

Melbourne get pick 3 for Frawley.

really unfair.

[boydogs]

really unfair.

What was the deal from the Hawks?

[GVGjr]

Well done to them, I don't think they deserve it and it should have been a mid first round pick

[divvydan]

Well done to them, I don't think they deserve it and it should have been a mid first round pick

That's not an option.

[Go_Dogs]

They've done well out of that, but I think with the request for a PP they always had one eye on ensuring they would get the maximum compensation with Frawley.

Would be interested to see it confirmed, but assume it must be a 4 x $600k contract, as I don't think 4 x $500k would have quite measured up to band one.

[LostDoggy]

They'll feel ripped off. They should have been given tom scully back as compensation.

[divvydan]

They've done well out of that, but I think with the request for a PP they always had one eye on ensuring they would get the maximum compensation with Frawley.

Would be interested to see it confirmed, but assume it must be a 4 x $600k contract, as I don't think 4 x $500k would have quite measured up to band one.

I think that's about it. It puts it in the same sort of ballpark as the Dale Thomas deal which also got a first round pick.

[Axe Man]

I think that's about it. It puts it in the same sort of ballpark as the Dale Thomas deal which also got a first round pick.

Daisy's deal was reported as being around $700k-$750k for 4 years, a bit higher than what Frawley has supposedly signed for. Apparently Frawley's was right on the cusp of band 1/band 2 compensation. IMO with the priority pick knocked back they were always going to be a little generous to the Dees with the Frawley compo.

[ratsmac]

The system doesn't work! Hawthorn got pick 19 (I think) for Buddy Franklin and Melbourne get pick 3 for Frawley. Frawley was a great player 3 years ago and has only been ok since. So other struggling clubs have to foot the bill for players not wanting to stay there.
No picks should be given in the first round. Maybe give 2 picks in the 2nd round if it suits.
Totally unfair. I can see us missing out by 1 pick on a tall forward now.

[KT31]

The system doesn't work! Hawthorn got pick 19 (I think) for Buddy Franklin and Melbourne get pick 3 for Frawley. Frawley was a great player 3 years ago and has only been ok since. So other struggling clubs have to foot the bill for players not wanting to stay there.
No picks should be given in the first round. Maybe give 2 picks in the 2nd round if it suits.
Totally unfair. I can see us missing out by 1 pick on a tall forward now.
Not to mention the unjust Ward compo.

[Topdog]

The system doesn't work! Hawthorn got pick 19 (I think) for Buddy Franklin and Melbourne get pick 3 for Frawley. Frawley was a great player 3 years ago and has only been ok since. So other struggling clubs have to foot the bill for players not wanting to stay there.
No picks should be given in the first round. Maybe give 2 picks in the 2nd round if it suits.
Totally unfair. I can see us missing out by 1 pick on a tall forward now.

Bolded part shows it is working. Good teams losing players arent compensated as heavily as they are getting more players due to being at the top.

[divvydan]

Daisy's deal was reported as being around $700k-$750k for 4 years, a bit higher than what Frawley has supposedly signed for. Apparently Frawley's was right on the cusp of band 1/band 2 compensation. IMO with the priority pick knocked back they were always going to be a little generous to the Dees with the Frawley compo.

Heard a wide range for Daisy, going from 2.5m over 4 years($625k) up to 3m ($750k/yr). No idea where in that range it is or if it's close to the minimum needed for band 1. Interesting thing to note is that so far there have been no Band 2's or Band 4's awarded in Free Agency.

[KT31]

Melbourne are a basket case of a club and now they will receive another high pick so they can select a quality kid to turn into a prize spud.

[GVGjr]

That's not an option.

According to Kevin Sheehan who is on the committee it was an option

[Greystache]

That club is just in a permanent state of relying on charity hand outs. With their record of ruining young talent all that giving them yet another really early pick does is ensures the talent is spread thinner across the league.

[divvydan]

According to Kevin Sheehan who is on the committee it was an option

Makes no sense then why Hawthorn didn't get that for Buddy or why it's not listed as an option on the AFL site's official free agency guide.

[Mofra]

The system doesn't work! Hawthorn got pick 19 (I think) for Buddy Franklin and Melbourne get pick 3 for Frawley.
It is the same compensation though - immediately after the first round pick. Melbourne's is earlier as they are utterly shite.

[bornadog]

Makes no sense then why Hawthorn didn't get that for Buddy or why it's not listed as an option on the AFL site's official free agency guide.

Hawthorn received the top compensation for Buddy,ie 1st round pick straight after their first round ie after 18..

[Topdog]

It is the same compensation though - immediately after the first round pick. Melbourne's is earlier as they are utterly shite.

That actually shows a flaw though as it means Frawley = Buddy

[lemmon]

That actually shows a flaw though as it means Frawley = Buddy

Or it means a bottom club deserves greater compensation for losing a marquee player than a top team does

[azabob]

Or it means a bottom club deserves greater compensation for losing a marquee player than a top team does
But then other bottom clubs are also punished, like we are in this situation.

[lemmon]

But then other bottom clubs are also punished, like we are in this situation.

By that logic Carlton are disadvantaged because we got pick 26 pushing them back to 27 for Higgins.

The compensation has been built to ensure lowly ranked clubs are overcompensated for losing the relatively few gun players they've got and have a way to rebuild. I'd prefer to see a system similar to that of the NFL in which top clubs are simply unable to pick up free agents but I can see why the AFL compensation works in the way it does. It's all well and good to argue for equality when it suits us but I find it hypocritical when the shoe is on the other foot, if we were in the Dees situation I'm sure we'd feel far better about it all.

[bornadog]

By that logic Carlton are disadvantaged because we got pick 26 pushing them back to 27 for Higgins.

The compensation has been built to ensure lowly ranked clubs are overcompensated for losing the relatively few gun players they've got and have a way to rebuild. I'd prefer to see a system similar to that of the NFL in which top clubs are simply unable to pick up free agents but I can see why the AFL compensation works in the way it does. It's all well and good to argue for equality when it suits us but I find it hypocritical when the shoe is on the other foot, if we were in the Dees situation I'm sure we'd feel far better about it all.

Do you think the club receiving the player should also give up a draft pick. So in Hawthorns case they lose round 1 pick.

[lemmon]

Do you think the club receiving the player should also give up a draft pick. So in Hawthorns case they lose round 1 pick.

I think free agency is inherently anti-equalisation anyway but now that it's here, it's here to stay so we'd better figure out how to make ourselves an attractive destination. I don't think having clubs give up draft picks is the answer because it will simply make them less inclined to sign older players who should be the beneficiary. Would the Dees have picked up Crossy if it cost them a third or fourth rounder? Probably not and in an ideal world Daniel should be the poster boy for what free agency provides.

If I were to redesign the system I would publicise the compensation bands so there is no speculation that the system is being manipulated, I would put in place a rule in which top 4 clubs aren't able to pick up free agents BUT I would keep the current compensation system in which lowly clubs are more heavily compensated then top clubs for losing free agents

[LostDoggy]

Do you think the club receiving the player should also give up a draft pick. So in Hawthorns case they lose round 1 pick.

I definitely think this should be the case. Scrap the nett result business for +/- results in a particular year and consider each trade on its own merit. Hawthorn losing their first pick for Frawley would have been completely justified, the current system basically let them net Frawley and O'rourke for pick 19 or something.

In saying this, it would affect the offers that are made for FA so would not be seen kindly by the AFLPA.

Only way to make it a fair system though IMO.