List Management moving into 2015

[GVGjr]

I'd like to have a look at our List Management challenges as we move into the 2015 season in particular our forward and back lines.

I know there was a lot of speculation that we had put in a multi year and multi million dollar offer to Jonathon Patton because we needed a genuine key position player but given we now won't land him and we are unlikely to be able to secure Patrick McCartin in the draft I think our focus needs to be on defenders both tall and mid sized.

We have an abundance of tall and mid sized forwards and I think this could be an issue for us next season.

Lets assume, Stringer has now cemented himself a spot as a forward, Crameri will also play every week and we will either use one of Campbell, Cordy or Jones as a tall forward rotating into the ruck as required. Lets assume it's Jones.

That stitches up 3 tall positions in the forward line. Bontempelli isn't ready to spend a lot of time in the midfield yet so we must also accommodate him for large periods of time as a tall/mid sized forward. Now we have 4 positions filled.

I'd guess Hrovat and Dahlhaus would be the front runners for the small forward positions but they would also have competition from Hunter, Smith (when he returns) Stevens and Tutt knowing that some of these guys could be used on a wing or on the IC bench.

So right at this moment there is no real home for Dickson, Grant, Campbell, Cordy, Honeychurch and Redpath (who I believe will be promoted) unless there are injuries or a lack of form.

Projected Forward set-up:
Half Forwards: Dahlhaus - Jones - Bontempelli
Forwards: Crameri - Stringer - Hrovat
Others: Smith - Stevens - Hunter - Dickson - Grant - Campbell - Redpath - Cordy

I think we have a bit of an oversupply of forwards but not necessarily the quality that we need.

Now when I look at our back line I start to see some worrying signs.
One of our key play makers in Murphy might very well finish at the end of the 2015 season and our best one on one defender in Morris could also find next year to be his last. Higgins who has had a a good season may be looking elsewhere.

We have a number of likely key defenders who for a variety of reasons haven't quite measured up:
Roughead is struggling (I think due to injuries) but I'd guess we will stick with him
Talia who is a good one on one defender but isn't creative enough and doesn't look quick.
Roberts who is performing well but hasn't quite been able to grab a spot and like Talia he doesn't appear to be quick enough.
Young who struggled early in the season but has bounced back well at Footscray and has played in a more creative manner .
Austin who has been given an extended run in the seniors but hasn't made his mark.

Once again we seem to have the right sort of numbers but are a player or two short on the quality.

For the mid sized and smaller players we have Wood who has had a great season, JJ, Picken and Darely who are decent options and I'm assuming Higgins will leave.

Projected Back Line set-up:
Half Backs: Murphy - Morris - Johannisen
Backs: Wood - Roughead - Picken
Others: Talia - Roberts - Austin - Darley and Young

What ever way I look at this unless there is a move of one of the key forwards to the back line or we can acquire a genuine key forward then I think we need to draft 3 defenders and at least two of them need to have some key position size and a fair bit of athleticism.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts?
Are our needs more about getting a genuine gun key forward or do we need key defenders more?

[Hotdog60]

Good post,

I've mentioned in other threads that I can see our backline as a real concern. We would need big improvements from Roberts and Talia if they will hold a spot in the seniors.

Morris could be replace by either one of them if they can progress next year. I see Darley as a Gilbee type but he needs to find space so he can use his kicking skills. JJ Could take Murphy's place but I think he is better suited a bit further up the ground.

If Wood could get to Bobs level he may well be that attacking defender.

Roughhead looks like the weak link, has size but is slow and I think he has serious problems with his shoulder. I remember a couple of years ago when he was playing for Willy he was walking the boundary right past me whingeing to the trainer about the pain he was in with his shoulder. This seems to be a reoccurring problem. So pick one in my mind would be the best available big defender in the draft.

[bornadog]

There are a couple of areas that need to be addressed in the backline and they are not only the key positions but the Murphy type of yester year, the run and bounce type. Wood needs to lift but I also think we need another Hargrave type who is around the 190 cm size, but with some pace and can look after the resting midfielders who are also 190cm. (refer Freo)

Young I think is a bit slow for my liking and I am not sue he will make it. Darley is more your type to look after the smaller forwards as is JJ. Morris can't continue to be on the buddies of the world, its just plain ridiclous and as GVGjr says, will probably only have a year left.

Therefore we are looking for at least three defenders

- Tall, around 196cm plus in a key position role
- 190cm defender, with pace to look after the resting taller mids
- A genuine replacement for Murphy

[F'scary]

The issue is quality. Particularly, in the key positions. Then there are the small to medium sized players who, while no-one could question their endeavour, are lacking badly when it comes to disposal and awareness skills. Then there is another group of players who just seem to like to operate in a comfort zone. Then finally there is a sizable group of players who just aren't remotely up to AFL standard but unfortunately we have garnered so many of them it is going to take years to work them out of the list.

Basically, we only have about 6 good players.

[Remi Moses]

In agreeance with others Murphy needs to be replaced ( I think he's got two seasons on current form)
We are then able to draft someone in for his spot.
One tall back, and a third man in type. Key forward for the chaos kick( that's currently every forward entry )
We've got to many holes to fill to challenge for the eight next season.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I'd like to have a look at our List Management challenges as we move into the 2015 season in particular our forward and back lines.

I know there was a lot of speculation that we had put in a multi year and multi million dollar offer to Jonathon Patton because we needed a genuine key position player but given we now won't land him and we are unlikely to be able to secure Patrick McCartin in the draft I think our focus needs to be on defenders both tall and mid sized.

We have an abundance of tall and mid sized forwards and I think this could be an issue for us next season.

Lets assume, Stringer has now cemented himself a spot as a forward, Crameri will also play every week and we will either use one of Campbell, Cordy or Jones as a tall forward rotating into the ruck as required. Lets assume it's Jones.

That stitches up 3 tall positions in the forward line. Bontempelli isn't ready to spend a lot of time in the midfield yet so we must also accommodate him for large periods of time as a tall/mid sized forward. Now we have 4 positions filled.

I'd guess Hrovat and Dahlhaus would be the front runners for the small forward positions but they would also have competition from Hunter, Smith (when he returns) Stevens and Tutt knowing that some of these guys could be used on a wing or on the IC bench.

So right at this moment there is no real home for Dickson, Grant, Campbell, Cordy, Honeychurch and Redpath (who I believe will be promoted) unless there are injuries or a lack of form.

Projected Forward set-up:
Half Forwards: Dahlhaus - Jones - Bontempelli
Forwards: Crameri - Stringer - Hrovat
Others: Smith - Stevens - Hunter - Dickson - Grant - Campbell - Redpath - Cordy

I think we have a bit of an oversupply of forwards but not necessarily the quality that we need.

Now when I look at our back line I start to see some worrying signs.
One of our key play makers in Murphy might very well finish at the end of the 2015 season and our best one on one defender in Morris could also find next year to be his last. Higgins who has had a a good season may be looking elsewhere.

We have a number of likely key defenders who for a variety of reasons haven't quite measured up:
Roughead is struggling (I think due to injuries) but I'd guess we will stick with him
Talia who is a good one on one defender but isn't creative enough and doesn't look quick.
Roberts who is performing well but hasn't quite been able to grab a spot and like Talia he doesn't appear to be quick enough.
Young who struggled early in the season but has bounced back well at Footscray and has played in a more creative manner .
Austin who has been given an extended run in the seniors but hasn't made his mark.

Once again we seem to have the right sort of numbers but are a player or two short on the quality.

For the mid sized and smaller players we have Wood who has had a great season, JJ, Picken and Darely who are decent options and I'm assuming Higgins will leave.

Projected Back Line set-up:
Half Backs: Murphy - Morris - Johannisen
Backs: Wood - Roughead - Picken
Others: Talia - Roberts - Austin - Darley and Young

What ever way I look at this unless there is a move of one of the key forwards to the back line or we can acquire a genuine key forward then I think we need to draft 3 defenders and at least two of them need to have some key position size and a fair bit of athleticism.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts?
Are our needs more about getting a genuine gun key forward or do we need key defenders more?
GVGjr this is a really good post. Our back line is a major concern when you consider that our best defenders are all getting to the veteran stage in Murphy Morris and Picken. I am still to be convinced about Roughy as a key defender due to him being too slow off the mark and believe he would be better suited as a marking forward and change ruck man. If this was to occur, then I would prefer Roughead to Jones. Your points about Roberts and Talia are valid as you would have hoped that they could step up to be our best two options as key defenders. We also need IMO to seek out a goal kicking midfielder as at the moment our midfield does not produce enough goals. Cooney and Boyd are two others entering the veteran stage and there is already too much reliance on Griffen and Liberatore who will both need extra support.
I still have reservations about Jones, Grant, Redpath and Cordy being good enough and Campbell although injured early against the Swans still needs greater mobility. There is something to get excited about with Stringer Bontempelli and Hrovat being on the forward line but we still need to find similar quality young draftees to give our list greater depth. There are still too many occupying a place on our list that fall short of us being a final 8 possibility in the foreseeable future.

[LostDoggy]

Once again we seem to have the right sort of numbers but are a player or two short on the quality.


Great Post GVG.

The above line pretty much sums it up for me. We have a great mix of players on our list. It's just a couple short in terms of quality.

I guess that's where a Reid or Frawley would be extremely beneficial.

If Talia and Roberts really step up next year then we could play either of the above mentioned Forward. But if Jones really comes along next year it also gives us the flexibility of moving one back. Hedging our bets in a sense.

If Jones, Talia and Roberts all go bang next year then, well.... I won't be complaining :D

[always right]

I would spend the pre-season trialling Jones in defence and Roberts up forward. We kind of know what to expect from Jones up forward and I'm not convinced Roberts has the size or pace to play key position defence.

[stefoid]

Jones is a rubbish field kick, but (recently) a good set-shot kick for goal.
He doesn't appear to read the ball well all that well either.

I think he remains a forward.

Would love to play Roughy as a long target up forward though, and trade in a ready-to-go full back. With someone of Rougheads size attracting a crowd, Crameri, Jones and Stringer would get to compete one-out more often.

[always right]

Jones is a rubbish field kick, but (recently) a good set-shot kick for goal.
He doesn't appear to read the ball well all that well either.

I think he remains a forward.

Would love to play Roughy as a long target up forward though, and trade in a ready-to-go full back. With someone of Rougheads size attracting a crowd, Crameri, Jones and Stringer would get to compete one-out more often.

You might be right regarding Jones but at the very least playing him in Defence might make him a better forward......seems to have benefited Stringer.

I know what you're saying about Jones' capacity to read the ball but it's one thing going for the ball knowing you've got a gorilla behind you ready to spoil....compared to the luxury of allowing your opponent to lead you to the ball drop. I reckon it's worth a try.

[Greystache]

I would spend the pre-season trialling Jones in defence and Roberts up forward. We kind of know what to expect from Jones up forward and I'm not convinced Roberts has the size or pace to play key position defence.

How viable is it to have a key defender that is one of your poorest endurance players? It would severely limit the options of who he can play on.

Jones finishes alongside Jarrad Grant at the back of nearly every running drill at the club. At 23 and after 5 preseasons, how much more is he likely to improve?

[bornadog]

At 23 and after 5 preseasons, how much more is he likely to improve?

Don't the big guys only start to show real improvement in their mid 20's?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Fitness issues aside (which are huge), Jones simply cannot read the play well enough to be considered for a position as a KPD.

[lemmon]

How viable is it to have a key defender that is one of your poorest endurance players? It would severely limit the options of who he can play on.

Jones finishes alongside Jarrad Grant at the back of nearly every running drill at the club. At 23 and after 5 preseasons, how much more is he likely to improve?
Not sure whether you can answer this Grey but how does Rougy usually fair in the endurance running drills? Genuinely curious

[Go_Dogs]

Great post GVGjr, agree with your thoughts.

I would be targeting one of Durdin or Marchbank with our first selection as genuine key position players who are fairly athletic and versatile. Zaine Cordy appears he may be another option who fits the bill as more a medium sized defender.

Regarding the forward line, we still lack that genuine quality in the KPF stakes, but that is usually a hard one to fill. I've referenced Port a few times who have built a good forward line around a couple of players who were previously much maligned in Schultz and Westhoff. If we can generate enough clean ball with the right structures and have guys like Stringer, Crameri and Bonti, along with Dahl, Hrovat and Hunter we have enough to cause headaches.

For that reason I'm not adverse to looking for another midfield type who can run, spread and kick well. Subject to what bids are made on Zaine and whether Higgins leaves, we may be able to snare someone in the mid 20's who fits this description.

Going to be another crucial and very interesting draft for us.

[Remi Moses]

Not for me . Doesn't read the play well enough, and has no endurance .
Kicking isn't great either and tends to lean back

[bornadog]

Not for me . Doesn't read the play well enough, and has no endurance .
Kicking isn't great either and tends to lean back

Who?

[lemmon]

Who?

I think Remi was referring to the idea about moving Jones back BAD

[bornadog]

I think Remi was referring to the idea about moving Jones back BAD

ok thanks, just didn't see any reference to that.

[Greystache]

Don't the big guys only start to show real improvement in their mid 20's?

In terms of bringing all the pieces of their game together, sure. Something as fundamental as endurance, not really.

[Greystache]

Not sure whether you can answer this Grey but how does Rougy usually fair in the endurance running drills? Genuinely curious

He's pretty good. Of the big guys he's right up there, can't match it with the best mids of course. Talia is very good too.

[always right]

Surprised that no-one is even willing to see how he Jones might fare in the pre-season if tried in defence. What is there to lose?

[Maddog37]

Played defence as a junior

[GVGjr]

Surprised that no-one is even willing to see how he Jones might fare in the pre-season if tried in defence. What is there to lose?

It would be a learning curve for him. I'm not convinced he could make it as a full time defender but it won't harm his development.
I think he also needs to be used in the ruck more now. Previously I didn't think that was a good move but he needs to have another string to his bow if he is having a quiet game up forward.

[Sedat]

How viable is it to have a key defender that is one of your poorest endurance players? It would severely limit the options of who he can play on.

Jones finishes alongside Jarrad Grant at the back of nearly every running drill at the club. At 23 and after 5 preseasons, how much more is he likely to improve?
Agree with Jones' unsuitability as a defender, but he has shown that his best is more than good enough as a key forward at this level. His biggest problem is the lack of consistency and the massive gap between his best and his worst. Crameri is getting lambasted by some for a 12 possession and 1 goal game - Jones would kill to have those sort of numbers as his worst performing game.

[bornadog]

Agree with Jones' unsuitability as a defender, but he has shown that his best is more than good enough as a key forward at this level. His biggest problem is the lack of consistency and the massive gap between his best and his worst. Crameri is getting lambasted by some for a 12 possession and 1 goal game - Jones would kill to have those sort of numbers as his worst performing game.

Crameri is being lumbered by the best Full Backs each week and he isn't even a KPP. Last week Ted Richards, the week before Scott Thompson. What a difference it would be if we had a nice big Full Forward to take the best backman.

[The Pie Man]

It would be a learning curve for him. I'm not convinced he could make it as a full time defender but it won't harm his development.
I think he also needs to be used in the ruck more now. Previously I didn't think that was a good move but he needs to have another string to his bow if he is having a quiet game up forward.

Re: the ruck call - absolutely. I'd be inclined to even challenge him to play a more prominent role in the ruck than just relief and look at Paddy Ryder as a model.

He'll struggle to make it otherwise

[LostDoggy]

It's looming as a huge VFL finals series for Jones. He really needs to dominate the next few weeks.

[Greystache]

It's looming as a huge VFL finals series for Jones. He really needs to dominate the next few weeks.

The problem is he usually does. His consistency, work rate, and performances at VFL are very good. It just never seems to translate to consistency at AFL level.

[Remi Moses]

Big issue I see is the possible loss of 4 to 5 senior players in one hit.
Boyd Murph Morris Will and possibly Cooney .
We can't afford to have that much experience leave at once, and hope the club manages this thoughtfully .
I hope the club can make another tough call or two .

[Webby]

Big issue I see is the possible loss of 4 to 5 senior players in one hit.
Boyd Murph Morris Will and possibly Cooney .
We can't afford to have that much experience leave at once, and hope the club manages this thoughtfully .
I hope the club can make another tough call or two .

Just thinking about this one and perhaps a bit off topic, but geez I hope the club can work towards luring Callan Ward back to the club as a free agent in a couple of years time. His grandfather on his mum's side coached Yarraville, his dad played for Yarraville, he himself played for Spotswood and he also played baseball for Footscray.

He's about as local as a player can get and we let him slip through our fingers. It's one thing that really irks me. I hope we can put it right (LeBron James/Cleveland Cavs style).

[LostDoggy]

Very romantic Webby. I hope Callan all the worst in his career.

[mjp]

Big issue I see is the possible loss of 4 to 5 senior players in one hit.
Boyd Murph Morris Will and possibly Cooney .
We can't afford to have that much experience leave at once, and hope the club manages this thoughtfully .
I hope the club can make another tough call or two .
Why? It isn't like we are winning with them all playing...do you really think things would be that much worse without them right now?

[GVGjr]

Why? It isn't like we are winning with them all playing...do you really think things would be that much worse without them right now?


I think we have managed it pretty well. Perhaps we need to nudge one more player into earlier retirement this year.

[Remi Moses]

Why? It isn't like we are winning with them all playing...do you really think things would be that much worse without them right now?

Taking that amount of games at once isn't ideal.
I'd take another one out this season.

[Remi Moses]

I think we have managed it pretty well. Perhaps we need to nudge one more player into earlier retirement this year.

Thinking the same thing

[boydogs]

I think we have managed it pretty well. Perhaps we need to nudge one more player into earlier retirement this year.

Who? Murphy, Morris & Boyd would all still be in our best 10 players. I would prefer to look at trading Minson or Cooney

[Remi Moses]

Who? Murphy, Morris & Boyd would all still be in our best 10 players. I would prefer to look at trading Minson or Cooney

True, but looking forward we can't allow them all to retire at once.

[Dry Rot]

I understand that the 2015 and 2016 drafts will be good ones for mids not talls. Can anyone confirm that?

I have no faith in any of our key position players. I'd go talls in this year and keep our fingers crossed.

[GVGjr]

I would prefer to look at trading Minson or Cooney

I can't see how we could trade Minson unless we have another ruckman in mind. Minson is a good leader as well.
We could trade Cooney but what could we get for him? I'd prefer to see him as a one club player but if he wanted to go like Lake did then we could facilitate that.

[Hot_Doggies]

I can't see how we could trade Minson unless we have another ruckman in mind. Minson is a good leader as well.
We could trade Cooney but what could we get for him? I'd prefer to see him as a one club player but if he wanted to go like Lake did then we could facilitate that.

Trade Minson to Geelong? Swap our second round pick (23) for their first round (16).

[Maddog37]

Why? It isn't like we are winning with them all playing...do you really think things would be that much worse without them right now?


Our back half would look pretty awful without Morris and Murphy. It's still pretty average but they leave big holes. I would move Boydy on. He is a great servant etc etc but his kicking is horrible and Wallis does his job better than him.

[Mofra]

Why? It isn't like we are winning with them all playing...do you really think things would be that much worse without them right now?
Murph and Morris - yes.
Arguably Wilbur as well, although I have faith in Campbell being an AFL standard ruckman.

Boyd and Cooney - not anymore. Wallis played his best football with Boyd out of the side.

[Mofra]

Just thinking about this one and perhaps a bit off topic, but geez I hope the club can work towards luring Callan Ward back to the club as a free agent in a couple of years time. His grandfather on his mum's side coached Yarraville, his dad played for Yarraville, he himself played for Spotswood and he also played baseball for Footscray.

He's about as local as a player can get and we let him slip through our fingers. It's one thing that really irks me. I hope we can put it right (LeBron James/Cleveland Cavs style).
He is exactly the type of player B-Mac likes.
It would be huge if we could lure him back.

[bornadog]

Arguably Wilbur as well, although I have faith in Campbell being an AFL standard ruckman.

Campbell needs a couple of more seasons before he can takeover as the number one ruckman. Will is still our best ruckman and despite missing a game is still second on hitouts in the AFL. We know he has deficiencies around the ground, but we can generally cover that. Campbell is still young and his time will come.

[josie]

Campbell needs a couple of more seasons before he can takeover as the number one ruckman. Will is still our best ruckman and despite missing a game is still second on hitouts in the AFL. We know he has deficiencies around the ground, but we can generally cover that. Campbell is still young and his time will come.

I love big Will however I see him as a bit of a liability around the ground as he does not mark well, nor does he tap ball away from opp ruck who reasonably regularly outmarks him. I'm not sure Cordy or Campbell are at present any better around the ground though and are not as good in ruck. I think it is likely that Macca will step up progression to Cordy & Campbell in ruck/resting forward in '15.Do wonder which teams might be interested in Will.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Just thinking about this one and perhaps a bit off topic, but geez I hope the club can work towards luring Callan Ward back to the club as a free agent in a couple of years time. His grandfather on his mum's side coached Yarraville, his dad played for Yarraville, he himself played for Spotswood and he also played baseball for Footscray.

He's about as local as a player can get and we let him slip through our fingers. It's one thing that really irks me. I hope we can put it right (LeBron James/Cleveland Cavs style).
Callan Ward's mother's brother was the Swans champion forward in Bill Gunn who shared a Footscray District B&F with Ted Whitten snr. Ward and also Harbrow were huge losses. You would love to think Ward would eventually return with perhaps the lure of captaincy .

[Twodogs]

Callan Ward's mother's brother was the Swans champion forward in Bill Gunn who shared a Footscray District B&F with Ted Whitten snr. Ward and also Harbrow were huge losses. You would love to think Ward would eventually return with perhaps the lure of captaincy .


Bill Gunn was Callan's mother's father. Not her brother, Callan's mum's brother was called Ramon. He was Bill's son.

[The Underdog]

Callan Ward's mother's brother was the Swans champion forward in Bill Gunn who shared a Footscray District B&F with Ted Whitten snr. Ward and also Harbrow were huge losses. You would love to think Ward would eventually return with perhaps the lure of captaincy .

You'd love to think it, but it's a pretty unlikely scenario. He's the captain of a club now and I'm sure heavily invested in it's success. We'd like to believe that the Dogs hold a special place for him but the amount of players who leave a club and then return as players could probably be counted on one hand. Let alone the number of players who leave a club after captaining it. I think we need to let the Callan Ward dream go and concentrate on bringing in players wherever they're from who make us better.

[chef]

Ward can get stuffed for all I care.

[GVGjr]

Ward can get stuffed for all I care.

Not your best effort Chef.

[chef]

Not your best effort Chef.

Why?

He ditched us for $$$ when better people have stuck fat for less eg Grant, Griffen etc. I really I don't want him back.

It's ridiculous to even think a guy like him would choose us if he was coming back to Victoria.

[azabob]

Not your best effort Chef.


Why?

He ditched us for $$$ when better people have stuck fat for less eg Grant, Griffen etc. I really I don't want him back.

It's ridiculous to even think a guy like him would choose us if he was coming back to Victoria.

I agree with Chef. I wouldn't have chosen that exact phrase though.

From memory GVGj personal connection with Callan Ward - hence is a lot more forgiving.

[FrediKanoute]

I think that this is a big watershed window for us. We have a great crop of midfielders who will be elite - Bonts, Macrae, Libba; ably supported by a strong cast - Wallis, Smith, Hrovat, Johannisen, Dahlhaus; coupled with the emergence of Stringer.

this trade period is important that we start shoring up the deficiencies and going after established players who will be around in our window is key. I would chase Frawley - good solid tall who if nothing else will consolidate the backline. We can't keep saying we will draft for the future because in the next few years the future will have arived and we wont be ready!

[GVGjr]

Why?

He ditched us for $$$ when better people have stuck fat for less eg Grant, Griffen etc. I really I don't want him back.



For a guy who's most passionate tweets on this forum are for the World game, the EPL and following Chelsea where the greater time is around the machinations of the cattle trade by taking the best offers you seem to have forgot that the Bulldogs substantially low balled Ward for an number of months opening the door for the god father of all offers.
I would have thought that you more than most should get that.
By the way, Grant and Griffen were never low balled, they might have ignored better offers but they were/are very well paid players.
If your confident the club has put in the best offer it's a lot easier to 'ward off' better offers from other clubs.

[GVGjr]

From memory GVGj personal connection with Callan Ward - hence is a lot more forgiving.

That's just a guess and for the record I had no personal connection with Ward
I met him a few times at club functions and maybe once or twice at Williamstown games we would say hi but that was it.

I just think the phrase and tone Chef used wasn't needed.

I think Ward made a mistake leaving us but it's water under the bridge.

[chef]

For a guy who's most passionate tweets on this forum are for the World game, the EPL and following Chelsea where the greater time is around the machinations of the cattle trade by taking the best offers you seem to have forgot that the Bulldogs substantially low balled Ward for an number of months opening the door for the god father of all offers.
I would have thought that you more than most should get that.
By the way, Grant and Griffen were never low balled, they might have ignored better offers but they were/are very well paid players.
If your confident the club has put in the best offer it's a lot easier to 'ward off' better offers from other clubs.

I do get it G and if the same thing happened with a Chelsea player I would feel the same way.

I didn't think 'get stuffed' was that offensive but I guess I was wrong.

[GVGjr]

I do get it G and if the same thing happened with a Chelsea player I would feel the same way.

I didn't think 'get stuffed' was that offensive but I guess I was wrong.

And I get that you don't want him back but 3 years on I don't think a hearty "get stuffed" gets the message across that you don't want him back in the right way. As I originally said, I don't think it was one of your best efforts but it's your call.

[chef]

And I get that you don't want him back but 3 years on I don't think a hearty "get stuffed" gets the message across that you don't want him back in the right way. As I originally said, I don't think it was one of your best efforts but it's your call.

Fair enough mate.

[Twodogs]

Why?

He ditched us for $$$ when better people have stuck fat for less eg Grant, Griffen etc. I really I don't want him back.

It's ridiculous to even think a guy like him would choose us if he was coming back to Victoria.

His family would insist on it.

[LostDoggy]

Why not just edit posts as moderators instead of coercing peoples point of view?

[BulldogBelle]

Port Power will be after players to lift them into the top 2. Will and Cooney are both from Adelaide. I'd let them go for draft pick upgrades. Carlton could be a landing spot for Boyd is he insists on a 2 year deal when it's widely known once over 30 your a year by year proposition. Rob Murphy and Dale Morris have one good season left, and I don't think we can afford to let 2of our back 6 go at once right now. Another year into Talia and maybe then it won't be quite so much a shock. From memory these are our oldest 5. (Not including Goodes who will be delisted anyway). I'd love to trade for a key back, but who??? Collingwoods Nathan Brown? Talia needs to step up to release Roughead back to the ruck and allow Roberts to throw his hat into the ring as a key forward.

[GVGjr]

I've adjusted my thoughts on how deep we should cut into the list. I'd be looking at at turning over 6 senior listed players with maybe no or at most one rookie upgrade.

The depth of the draft is good enough for us to strengthen our playing list

[azabob]

Sitting here on level two watching GWs up by 5 goals at half time I agree GVGjr.

No rookie upgrades, need to continue to turn the list over.

[bulldogtragic]

Who has played their last AFL game for us I wonder?

[kruder]

I wanna be positive.

Absolutely love our young players, we all agree on that.

But we must have the biggest set of list cloggers/VFL players in the league. So many players have question marks against them. I'm finding it sad that our supporters are having to find enjoyment in watching the VFL team in the finals. I couldn't give a shite, all it proves is that we have a decent set of VFL players on the list in this situation. All our good kids apart from Honey are playing in the seniors already.... Who is going to come in and actually improve the team?????


Jones,Grant,Higgo,Cooney,Tutt,Cordy,Campbell,Roberts, Jong,Young, Pearce, Howard, Dickson, Talia, Darley, Fuller, Goodes, Austin, Greenwood and Redpath. Add Gia and Williams and thats ~50% of our list with significant question marks against it.

When it comes to draft time we have to take the best avaliable and if thats another midfielder then so be it. There are holes everywhere and using a first rounder to reach for the panacea forward is fraught with danger. Williams,Walsh Grant ring a bell?

Interesting times ahead. Along way to go IMO.

[josie]

I've adjusted my thoughts on how deep we should cut into the list. I'd be looking at at turning over 6 senior listed players with maybe no or at most one rookie upgrade.

The depth of the draft is good enough for us to strengthen our playing list

I respect your posts GVGjr, Who are the 6 you'd let go (is this in addition to Gia & Williams) and which rookie would you upgrade?

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Jones,Grant,Higgo,Cooney,Tutt,Cordy,Campbell,Roberts, Jong,Young, Pearce, Howard, Dickson, Talia, Darley, Fuller, Goodes, Austin, Greenwood and Redpath. Add Gia and Williams and thats ~50% of our list with significant question marks against it.

When it comes to draft time we have to take the best avaliable and if thats another midfielder then so be it.

Just on this one Kruder, I think that the recruiting team have been fantastic and red hot over the last two years. Of the name above I still think that Jones, Cooney, Tutt, Campbell, Roberts, Dickson, Talia & Redpath have something to work with. It always seems that you can get a mid from any draft but the KPP are harder to find, this in mind you keep Jones, Campbell, Roberts and Redpath as they cost very little to have on the list, that gives you time to bring on others.

Interesting times ahead I agree but we need a blueprint and I think we should start with the back line as in 2016 we will not have Murphy & Morris on the list.

[GVGjr]

Who are the 6 you'd let go (is this in addition to Gia & Williams) and which rookie would you upgrade?

Senior list: Giansiracusa, Williams, Goodes, Howard, Pearce and Fuller. Fuller may have to slide to the rookie list.
Rookie list: Austin, Redpath, Greenwood and Jong. Potentially one upgrade but prefer to clean the list.

In doubt: Higgins, Boyd and Grant.

[The Doctor]

Senior list: Giansiracusa, Williams, Goodes, Howard, Pearce and Fuller. Fuller may have to slide to the rookie list.
Rookie list: Austin, Redpath, Greenwood and Jong. Potentially one upgrade but prefer to clean the list.

In doubt: Higgins, Boyd and Grant.

& Young

[GVGjr]

& Young

I'd be keeping him Doc. He's still got some improvement in him.

[Doc26]

Senior list: Giansiracusa, Williams, Goodes, Howard, Pearce and Fuller. Fuller may have to slide to the rookie list.
Rookie list: Austin, Redpath, Greenwood and Jong. Potentially one upgrade but prefer to clean the list.

Agree with this although Jong to me seems the odd one out. He has something fierce in his hardness and determination, good size and acceptable pace. It will come down to whether there remains scope to improve his football smarts. Not quite ready to let him go although time is now starting to run out.

[GVGjr]

Agree with this although Jong to me seems the odd one out. He has something fierce in his hardness and determination, good size and acceptable pace. It will come down to whether there remains scope to improve his football smarts. Not quite ready to let him go.

I see the logic with that but could you actually cut another player to upgrade Jong?

[G-Mo77]

I see the logic with that but could you actually cut another player to upgrade Jong?

Howard, Young, Pearce, Goodes, Fuller. Throw the retired players in as well. There is a spot there for an upgraded rookie and I think it'll be Jong.

[Doc26]

I see the logic with that but could you actually cut another player to upgrade Jong?

It will be interesting to see where Higgins falls now. Still unsigned, Gia now gone, and Murph and Dale probably only with a season and a bit at most to go. I'm assuming he might just fall to a lucrative FA offer.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'd be keeping him Doc. He's still got some improvement in him.

I think we need to cut our losses here.

Young doesn't have any stand out qualities; he's not quick, strong, skillful or a good decision maker. He regularly fumbles/misses tackles and simply isn't/won't be/shouldn't be in any aspiring finals side.

I realise we aren't that side yet, but I'd rather develop younger players (Roberts, Talia, draftees)

[GVGjr]

It will be interesting to see where Higgins falls now. Still unsigned, Gia now gone, and Murph and Dale probably only with a season and a bit at most to go. I'm assuming he might just fall to a lucrative FA offer.

Higgins has an offer from us, I guess it's no better than 50/50 if he actually accepts it. I think we need him to stay but we can't pay overs for him.

[GVGjr]

I think we need to cut our losses here.

Young doesn't have any stand out qualities; he's not quick, strong, skillful or a good decision maker. He regularly fumbles/misses tackles and simply isn't/won't be/shouldn't be in any aspiring finals side.

I realise we aren't that side yet, but I'd rather develop younger players (Roberts, Talia, draftees)

I see it very differently. He was asked to change the way he naturally played as a defender and his VFL form has been great over the last half of the season. I still think there is room for him on our list especially given the form of Talia and that Roberts hasn't quite measured up yet.

[Ozza]

Would let go:

Fuller
Howard
Pearce



Retirees:

Gia
Williams

Thats 5 from the primary list.

I'm fairly sure Grant only got a one year deal last year - if so, I'd part ways with him.

Higgins appears to be likely to go.

Of the rookies - Greenwood, Austin, Goodes, are all real triers....but I'm afraid don't make the grade in the sort of side we're aspiring to be.

That's 10 in total- with Grant and Higgins as the maybe's for different reasons.
I struggle to see how Redpath and Jong get there, but willing to give them another crack at it on the rookie list.

[G-Mo77]

I struggle to see how Redpath and Jong get there, but willing to give them another crack at it on the rookie list.

I don't think we can keep them on the rookie list Ozza.

[GVGjr]

I'm fairly sure Grant only got a one year deal last year - if so, I'd part ways with him.



In the end, Grant got a 2 year deal.




I struggle to see how Redpath and Jong get there, but willing to give them another crack at it on the rookie list.

We can't re rookie any of the current list. They have been on for 3 years.

[bornadog]

I think we need to cut our losses here.

Young doesn't have any stand out qualities; he's not quick, strong, skillful or a good decision maker. He regularly fumbles/misses tackles and simply isn't/won't be/shouldn't be in any aspiring finals side.

I realise we aren't that side yet, but I'd rather develop younger players (Roberts, Talia, draftees)

Young is just a plodder. A very good VFL player, but after watching him today I would be delisting him.

[josie]

Would let go:

Fuller
Howard
Pearce



Retirees:

Gia
Williams

Thats 5 from the primary list.


What about Goodes? And Austin?

[Greystache]

I see the logic with that but could you actually cut another player to upgrade Jong?

I think you could very comfortably cut Tutt. He's been on the list 5 years and still plays mainly reserves. He has some nice attributes but his improvement is so slow he could be on the list another 3 years and still be a fringe player. There's better players to be investing in.

[LostDoggy]

I think you could very comfortably cut Tutt. He's been on the list 5 years and still plays mainly reserves. He has some nice attributes but his improvement is so slow he could be on the list another 3 years and still be a fringe player. There's better players to be investing in.

Its all very well to cut the crap out of the list but we still need to replace them. I would have thought Tutt wouldn't be going yet. Although I agree his future is limited. There just seems to be more players with more limited futures.

Gia, Williams, Howard and Goodes seem defintes to go.

Young, Fuller, Pearce and Tutt (and then Boyd) are next cabs off the rank, for me in that order.

All rookies gone.

The ins are more interesting

Jong, first three draft picks.

Then it gets interesting as to whether we pick up a free agent or two I guess, whether we trade Grant, if Higgins goes. Interesting times.

For mine Frawley is worth pursuing, as is Mitch Clark, Griffiths from Richmond for a trade. Whether we say trade our first pick for Jaksch and O'Rourke, or Reid. Who knows?

If we are to get ahead we simply have to start attacking free agents, we will just tread water if we keep doing trades like Crameri or Pick 5/6 for Reid. Guess we will see.

[Remi Moses]

I'd go with
Williams Gia Goodes Austin ( he must know every blade of grass at Etihad, constantly goes to ground.
Boyd Jong Redpath Greenwood, Pearce. I know all those won't get cut, but that's my 2 cents

[bornadog]

I'd go with
Williams Gia Goodes Austin ( he must know every blade of grass at Etihad, constantly goes to ground.
Boyd Jong Redpath Greenwood, Pearce. I know all those won't get cut, but that's my 2 cents

That is 5 players plus rookies. Do we need to cut further? I would add Howard, Fuller, Young at least.

[Maddog37]

Out: Gia, Williams, Young, Austin, Howard, Pearce, Redpath, Higgins, Boyd, Greenwood.

In : key position players and players with speed that can kick. And I mean real speed!

[SlimPickens]

In : key position players and players with speed that can kick. And I mean real speed!

Any suggestions? It's all good throwing up statements like this but realistically they have to be available.

Our first pick must be best player, this draft is so even over the top 10 picks a case can be made for anyone really. Dalrymple has his work cut out.

I'd also like us to make a strong play for Tomlinson or Jacksch from GWS.

[Ozza]

In the end, Grant got a 2 year deal.
.

Then I'm quite annoyed about that. If Grant ever produces on a regular basis - at any level - I'll swim from here to wherever Scott Clayton said he'd swim to!!!

[G-Mo77]

Young is just a plodder. A very good VFL player, but after watching him today I would be delisting him.

I've been pretty certain of that for most of the year and I really wanted him to prove me wrong yesterday. He's just not good enough at the highest level. I'd be disappointed if he was on our list next year.

[Ozza]

Any suggestions? It's all good throwing up statements like this but realistically they have to be available.

Our first pick must be best player, this draft is so even over the top 10 picks a case can be made for anyone really. Dalrymple has his work cut out.

I'd also like us to make a strong play for Tomlinson or Jacksch from GWS.

Agree completely on Tomlinson - yesterday was a good opportunity to see him play live. Smart player, has some good attributes.

I was surprised to read MacCarthey (the first gamer with the long hair) is 195cms. Didn't look it.

[G-Mo77]

I was surprised to read MacCarthey (the first gamer with the long hair) is 195cms. Didn't look it.

Nowhere near it!

[Ozza]

Nowhere near it!

Just saw another source with him listed as 193cms.....so its in the ball park.

[Hot_Doggies]

Agree completely on Tomlinson - yesterday was a good opportunity to see him play live. Smart player, has some good attributes.

I was surprised to read MacCarthey (the first gamer with the long hair) is 195cms. Didn't look it.



Agree with Tomlinson. He or Sam Reid would be a good pick up.

Levi Casboult would be a disaster IMHO.

[G-Mo77]

Just saw another source with him listed as 193cms.....so its in the ball park.

Did he have his hair up in a bun that day :)

[Greystache]

Then I'm quite annoyed about that. If Grant ever produces on a regular basis - at any level - I'll swim from here to wherever Scott Clayton said he'd swim to!!!

There was a ground swell at the time to give him whatever it took to get him signed, but I was dead against giving such an unreliable performer anything more than a 1 year deal with an additional carrot to perform. He's got another year now, and if we can't find a trade for him in the mean time, he'll he'll be 26 and have had 8 years in the system at the end of it. Anything less than a consistent season at AFL level should be the end. A couple of good games on the stroke of midnight won't cut it.

[bornadog]

Then I'm quite annoyed about that. If Grant ever produces on a regular basis - at any level - I'll swim from here to wherever Scott Clayton said he'd swim to!!!

Grants biggest issue has been consistency. However, we know the guy has talent to burn, has a bit of an X factor about him. He also showed us at the end of last year what he is capable of. He had a foot injury during pre-season which set him back this season. There are plenty of other players I would be delisting before Grant.

[Ozza]

Grants biggest issue has been consistency. However, we know the guy has talent to burn, has a bit of an X factor about him. He also showed us at the end of last year what he is capable of. He had a foot injury during pre-season which set him back this season. There are plenty of other players I would be delisting before Grant.

Yes. But his other issues include physicality, intensity, fitness levels and kicking. There are far too many crosses against his name at this point in his career to make me a believer on any level. The occasional look away handball, clever tap on or sticky hands is not enough. He simply needs to be involved in a heap more contests, literally double the amount of contests he would get to (even at VFL level) right now.

[bornadog]

Yes. But his other issues include physicality, intensity, fitness levels and kicking. There are far too many crosses against his name at this point in his career to make me a believer on any level. The occasional look away handball, clever tap on or sticky hands is not enough. He simply needs to be involved in a heap more contests, literally double the amount of contests he would get to (even at VFL level) right now.

We can go around in circles debating Grant, which we have on WOOF previously.

All I am saying is I can list 8 to 10 players that need to be moved on before him. (see thread http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?13534-Retirements-trades-Out-delistings-and-the-rookie-list-2014/page6)

[LostDoggy]

Wonder if we'd be having a nibble with Jordan Lisle who's been delisted by the Lions. 24y/o, key position size. Has been tested forward and back. He could be a decent fit as back up at both ends.

[Sedat]

Levi Casboult would be a disaster IMHO.
Can I ask why? Structurally, he'd be an ideal fit for us - I think he averages the most (or close to the most) contested marks per game in the entire competition. What he is very good at is exactly what we haven't had in our forward line for many years. It's not as sexy a sell as getting a Jon Patton but it would be 95% as effective and cost much less than half.

[Remi Moses]

That is 5 players plus rookies. Do we need to cut further? I would add Howard, Fuller, Young at least.

Yep. Forgot Howard

[bornadog]

Yep. Forgot Howard

He is forgettable :D

[Remi Moses]

Can I ask why? Structurally, he'd be an ideal fit for us - I think he averages the most (or close to the most) contested marks per game in the entire competition. What he is very good at is exactly what we haven't had in our forward line for many years. It's not as sexy a sell as getting a Jon Patton but it would be 95% as effective and cost much less than half.

Until he kicks the football. Not great below his knees either, but I think it wouldn't happen because Waite will go.

[Remi Moses]

He is forgettable :D

Definitely not " unforgettable"

[Sedat]

Yes. But his other issues include physicality, intensity, fitness levels and kicking. There are far too many crosses against his name at this point in his career to make me a believer on any level. The occasional look away handball, clever tap on or sticky hands is not enough. He simply needs to be involved in a heap more contests, literally double the amount of contests he would get to (even at VFL level) right now.
I've come around to Greystache and Ozza's thinking on Grant. If he can be traded out for a similar pick to what Brisbane offered last season (assuming they are still interested), I'd be inclined to pull the trigger. He is just too small a chance to become the super-consistent player he has threatened to be. I really do like his good points but we just have to be more ruthless with our list management this season. We have plenty of half-forwards (and that's all Grant is and ever will be) and clever young mids who can play a role up forward to not feel his absence. And we are currently a 7 win team - we need to keep turning over the list to get the player mix right.

I'd love to see to see him stay on next year and prove everyone wrong but I'm just not confident he will be the player we envisaged him to be when we drafted him.

[Sedat]

Until he kicks the football. Not great below his knees either, but I think it wouldn't happen because Waite will go.
The mail I'm getting from my Carlton mates is Casboult is gone and headed our way, and that Waite will be staying. They usually have pretty good mail from inside the club.

Whilst he's not the greatest kick in the world he has improved his conversion since he started. There aren't too many units his size who are great below their knees - that's why we have Dahlhaus, Stringer, Hunter, Hrovat, Crameri, etc.. to feed off him at ground level. He never gets beaten in an aerial duel, which is something we'd all agree would add value to our forward half. How many long bail-out kicks into our forward 50 were whisked away with ease by GWS yesterday?

[KT31]

The mail I'm getting from my Carlton mates is Casboult is gone and headed our way, and that Waite will be staying. They usually have pretty good mail from inside the club.

Whilst he's not the greatest kick in the world but he has improved his conversion since he started. There aren't too many 200cm big units who are great below their knees - that's why we'd have Dahlhaus, Stringer, Hunter, Hrovat, Crameri, etc.. feeding off him at ground level. He never gets beaten in an aerial duel, which is something we'd all agree would add value to our forward half. How many long bail-out kicks into our forward 50 were whisked away with ease by GWS yesterday?
http://www.sportal.com.au/afl/news/afl-rumour-file-losing-levi-and-the-adelaide-cat-spew-fiasco/1e027385kkna21cbmfa926cpny

[Remi Moses]

The mail I'm getting from my Carlton mates is Casboult is gone and headed our way, and that Waite will be staying. They usually have pretty good mail from inside the club.

Whilst he's not the greatest kick in the world he has improved his conversion since he started. There aren't too many units his size who are great below their knees - that's why we have Dahlhaus, Stringer, Hunter, Hrovat, Crameri, etc.. to feed off him at ground level. He never gets beaten in an aerial duel, which is something we'd all agree would add value to our forward half. How many long bail-out kicks into our forward 50 were whisked away with ease by GWS yesterday?
The issue is our fan base will be doing a version of the Poznan when he lines up for goal.

[Webby]

The mail I'm getting from my Carlton mates is Casboult is gone and headed our way, and that Waite will be staying. They usually have pretty good mail from inside the club.

Whilst he's not the greatest kick in the world he has improved his conversion since he started. There aren't too many units his size who are great below their knees - that's why we have Dahlhaus, Stringer, Hunter, Hrovat, Crameri, etc.. to feed off him at ground level. He never gets beaten in an aerial duel, which is something we'd all agree would add value to our forward half. How many long bail-out kicks into our forward 50 were whisked away with ease by GWS yesterday?

A journo asked McCartney directly about Casboult in last night's press conference. McCartney smiled and said "We don't comment on those things" and followed up with "you nearly got me at a vulnerable moment.. Nice try!" Or words to that effect.

Casboult can catch a footy. Awful kick, but in our circumstances, he could be handy.

[Greystache]

The mail I'm getting from my Carlton mates is Casboult is gone and headed our way, and that Waite will be staying. They usually have pretty good mail from inside the club.

Whilst he's not the greatest kick in the world he has improved his conversion since he started. There aren't too many units his size who are great below their knees - that's why we have Dahlhaus, Stringer, Hunter, Hrovat, Crameri, etc.. to feed off him at ground level. He never gets beaten in an aerial duel, which is something we'd all agree would add value to our forward half. How many long bail-out kicks into our forward 50 were whisked away with ease by GWS yesterday?

Is there any word on why he might be looking for a move out?

From the outside looking in- They gave him a shot as a rookie, there's an obvious role for him in their team, he certainly hasn't been starved of opportunity, and he's getting better every year so shouldn't be feeling stale. He seems like a good candidate to stay where he is.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Is there any word on why he might be looking for a move out?

From the outside looking in- They gave him a shot as a rookie, there's an obvious role for him in their team, he certainly hasn't been starved of opportunity, and he's getting better every year so shouldn't be feeling stale. He seems like a good candidate to stay where he is.

By the sound of it its more to do with our offer and Carlton unable or unwilling to match it. Apparently in the realm of 500k!!! would not be paying that sort of money for him.

[Sedat]

Is there any word on why he might be looking for a move out?

From the outside looking in- They gave him a shot as a rookie, there's an obvious role for him in their team, he certainly hasn't been starved of opportunity, and he's getting better every year so shouldn't be feeling stale. He seems like a good candidate to stay where he is.
Cash. We are (apparently) offering far more than Carlton are. Mumford going to Sydney from Geelong is a very relevant recent example with similar circumstances.

[Doc26]

There aren't too many units his size who are great below their knees - that's why we have Dahlhaus, Stringer, Hunter, Hrovat, Crameri, etc.. to feed off him at ground level.

I've just taken an extract from Sedat's previous message re Casboult to take this in a slightly different direction. I do wonder where Tory fits into our longer term plans, afterall he is also taking a spot on our list and is behind a number now and with Honeychurch possibly also on the horizon. With Gia and possibly Higgins gone this may help his future although I don't see him offering us much positional flexibility outside of being an opportunitistic small forward with relatively low endurance albeit with good skills. Can anyone confirm his contract status with us ?

[SlimPickens]

I've just taken an extract from Sedat's previous message re Casboult to take this in a slightly different direction. I do wonder where Tory fits into our longer term plans, afterall he is also taking a spot on our list and is behind quite a number now and with Honeychurch possibly also on the horizon. With Gia and possibly Higgins gone this may help his future although I don't see him offering us much positional flexibility outside of being an opportunitistic small forward with relatively low endurance albeit with good skills. Can anyone confirm his contract status with us ?


Pretty sure he signed a contract extension till the end of 2016. I personally think we missed Tory this year, his injuries robbed of an efficient goal kicker. With the player highlighted id imagine Dahl, Hunter and Hrovat will spend more time
In the middle.

[bornadog]

Pretty sure he signed a contract extension till the end of 2016. I personally think we missed Tory this year, his injuries robbed of an efficient goal kicker. With the player highlighted id imagine Dahl, Hunter and Hrovat will spend more time
In the middle.

That is the intentions of the coach as they transition to midfield

[Greystache]

Cash. We are (apparently) offering far more than Carlton are. Mumford going to Sydney from Geelong is a very relevant recent example with similar circumstances.

But Geelong were 2 time premiers with salary cap issues (and obviously Sydney just don't have one at all). Both us and Carlton are about the same position and I can't imagine their salary cap would be under pressure. If it's just cash I can only assume they just don't rate him that highly then.

[Greystache]

Pretty sure he signed a contract extension till the end of 2016. I personally think we missed Tory this year, his injuries robbed of an efficient goal kicker. With the player highlighted id imagine Dahl, Hunter and Hrovat will spend more time
In the middle.

Plus having a forward that can actually kick for goal would be a welcome chamge. Despite no one being able to kick goals into the wind yesterday, as soon as Dickson marked 35 out late in the game you just knew it would go through.

[DISHLICKERS]

I think it is very important we sign up Liam Jones ASAP. I hear there are clubs snooping around who rate him highly at 23 yo.

[Sedat]

We won't miss Gia or Higgins much at all if Dickson can get on the park next year. You don't kick 6 goals in an AFL game and not know the caper. He will be another one who can get off the chain if we had a gorilla up forward.

[Doc26]

We won't miss Gia or Higgins much at all if Dickson can get on the park next year. You don't kick 6 goals in an AFL game and not know the caper. .

Sorry this quote reminded me of:


"Majak Daw boots a career-best haul of six goals in North Melbourne's triumph over the Bulldogs"

[lemmon]

But Geelong were 2 time premiers with salary cap issues (and obviously Sydney just don't have one at all). Both us and Carlton are about the same position and I can't imagine their salary cap would be under pressure. If it's just cash I can only assume they just don't rate him that highly then.

Or that we are throwing around stupid money. I like Casboult and think he would be a good addition but he would be the luckiest man in the history of the AFL to make 500k a year if that figure stated is correct.

[lemmon]

Grants biggest issue has been consistency. However, we know the guy has talent to burn, has a bit of an X factor about him. He also showed us at the end of last year what he is capable of. He had a foot injury during pre-season which set him back this season. There are plenty of other players I would be delisting before Grant.

Is next year your cut off for Grant and if so what would you consider a pass mark? I would be letting him go now if he weren't under contract so unless he manages to pull out a 15-20 game season next year and cements a first team spot I don't see a place for him on the list.

[Sedat]

Sorry this quote reminded me of:
Doesn't count kicking a bag against the Dogs - hell, even Ed Sainsbury, Marty McGrath and Luke Vogels managed to do that ;)

[bornadog]

You don't kick 6 goals in an AFL game and not know the caper.


Is next year your cut off for Grant and if so what would you consider a pass mark? I would be letting him go now if he weren't under contract so unless he manages to pull out a 15-20 game season next year and cements a first team spot I don't see a place for him on the list.

Sedat summed it up :D

He has another year on his contract. As I said, I have listed 8 players already that we need to get rid of before him. Depends if you want to cut deeper?

[Sedat]

But Geelong were 2 time premiers with salary cap issues (and obviously Sydney just don't have one at all). Both us and Carlton are about the same position and I can't imagine their salary cap would be under pressure. If it's just cash I can only assume they just don't rate him that highly then.
Certainly they don't rate him as highly as we do apparently. FWIW I think $500k a season is significant overs but I wouldn't baulk at $350-$400k a season - it is a futures market and you are paying a premium based on expected continued improvement. He's not deserving of that salary today but he is certainly improving every year (he would command that salary in 12-18 months anyway assuming continued improvement), and you will have to pay more than twice that amount to get maybe a 5-10% better player in any event (such as a Jon Patton or a Sam Reid).

If we really want to improve our forward structure in 2015 and beyond, I don't think there are too many other available decent options out there to be honest.

[lemmon]

Sedat summed it up :D

He has another year on his contract. As I said, I have listed 8 players already that we need to get rid of before him. Depends if you want to cut deeper?

I'm talking purely about 2015, you've been one of Grant's staunchest defenders so I'm curious what your minimum expectations would be for him to get another contract extension at the end of next year. If you were J Mccartney sitting down at the end of 2015, how many games/how much improvement must Grant have made if you were to extend him further? I'm talking purely hypothetical, crystal balling.

[azabob]

Grant for Casbault?

[bornadog]

I'm talking purely about 2015, you've been one of Grant's staunchest defenders so I'm curious what your minimum expectations would be for him to get another contract extension at the end of next year. If you were J Mccartney sitting down at the end of 2015, how many games/how much improvement must Grant have made if you were to extend him further? I'm talking purely hypothetical, crystal balling.

OK, he needs to get on the park and be consistent week in week out. That means not just kicking goals but contributing to goals. Last year he only played a handful of games yet he was the 3rd highest for goal assists. Must play at least 15 plus games and get into best 22.

PS: I may sound like the staunchest but what I have tried to convay, (obviously not well) is he is always brought up like a scapegoat when there others not contributing.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Certainly they don't rate him as highly as we do apparently. FWIW I think $500k a season is significant overs but I wouldn't baulk at $350-$400k a season - it is a futures market and you are paying a premium based on expected continued improvement. He's not deserving of that salary today but he is certainly improving every year (he would command that salary in 12-18 months anyway assuming continued improvement), and you will have to pay more than twice that amount to get maybe a 5-10% better player in any event (such as a Jon Patton or a Sam Reid).

If we really want to improve our forward structure in 2015 and beyond, I don't think there are too many other available decent options out there to be honest.

Agree with this Sedat.

He's not worth 500K now, but if improvement continues, he will be in another year or so. The Sydney/Mumford deal is a prime example of futures market.

Whilst a superstar match winning KPF ala Franklin/Roughead would be nice, not many teams have one. We do, however, absolutely need to find a gorilla who can mark - and Casboult is certainly that.

At 24 years of age, his best football should be produced from 2015 onwards. He can also take a turn in the ruck - depending on what we'd have to give up to get him, at 500K I'd probably do it. I think he would complete our forward structure, the likes of Crameri/Stringer/Jones and maybe Dickson become very very dangerous. This then allows us to top up our midfield and, more importantly, re-design our defense.

[azabob]

At 24 years of age, his best football should be produced from 2015 onwards. He can also take a turn in the ruck - depending on what we'd have to give up to get him, at 500K I'd probably do it. I think he would complete our forward structure, the likes of Crameri/Stringer/Jones and maybe Dickson become very very dangerous. This then allows us to top up our midfield and, more importantly, re-design our defense.

If we get him does that make two of Minson / Cordy / Campbell surplus?

With Cordy finishing the year so strongly, where do people expect Cordy to play in 2015? Do we expect him to leap frog Campbell and eventually Minson?

Do posters think Minson will play mainly VFL or AFL next year? Yesterday there was a definite 60 / 40 split in the ruck duties.

With the way the game is moving who is more mobile and valuable - Cordy or Campbell?

[chef]

Grant for Casbault?

I would, but I can't see Carlton doing it.

Grant would have no real resale value IMO.

[Remi Moses]

Gee if that what's been offered to Casboult we really look like the drunk bloke in the club at 3AM!
The guy's 24 and can't kick. Anyone for Butcher?

[Remi Moses]

If we get him does that make two of Minson / Cordy / Campbell surplus?

With Cordy finishing the year so strongly, where do people expect Cordy to play in 2015? Do we expect him to leap frog Campbell and eventually Minson?

Do posters think Minson will play mainly VFL or AFL next year? Yesterday there was a definite 60 / 40 split in the ruck duties.

With the way the game is moving who is more mobile and valuable - Cordy or Campbell?

I'm starting to sway to Cordy as I think he's more mobile .
Campbell yesterday on a few occasions was looking for body contact with the defender, instead of leading .
He's a pure ruck man

[GVGjr]

Can I ask why? Structurally, he'd be an ideal fit for us - I think he averages the most (or close to the most) contested marks per game in the entire competition. What he is very good at is exactly what we haven't had in our forward line for many years. It's not as sexy a sell as getting a Jon Patton but it would be 95% as effective and cost much less than half.

My concerns are mainly around his kicking skills. I agree with your logic but it's his kicking skills are what make me have some 2nd thoughts.

[kruder]

Agree with Tomlinson. He or Sam Reid would be a good pick up.

Levi Casboult would be a disaster IMHO.

Agree Casboult provides zero point of difference to Campbell. Surely not....

[F'scary]

If we get him does that make two of Minson / Cordy / Campbell surplus?

With Cordy finishing the year so strongly, where do people expect Cordy to play in 2015? Do we expect him to leap frog Campbell and eventually Minson?

Do posters think Minson will play mainly VFL or AFL next year? Yesterday there was a definite 60 / 40 split in the ruck duties.

With the way the game is moving who is more mobile and valuable - Cordy or Campbell?

Cordy is soft and doesn't pose a great marking threat as a forward. Campbell is inconsistent, sometimes looks like he has arrived, other times like the reserves ruckman.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If we landed Casboult, I'd offer Minson up for trade.

Short term pain, yes, but Campbell becomes number one ruck and Casboult can provide relief. Cordy in the reserves, and I'd look at rookie listing a state level player.

Campbell/Cordy still need time but we aren't going to contend for at least 2-3 years, by which time I am confident Campbell (at the least) will be ready. In the meantime they get great experience.

It does depend what Minson could land us, but I think it would help us medium to long term.

[whythelongface]

Is the problem with Casboult his field kicking or his set shots? Where does he mainly play at Carlton - deep in the forward line or more a leading type CHF? If recruited by us where do we see him being played - mainly as a FF or again as a CHF? Could he and Jones play in the same team together?

Sorry lots of questions but I have not see much of him. He does have a beard doesn't he - surely that's a bonus.:)

[Hotdog60]

2014 Season Average Games Played 19
Kicks 5.7 Handballs 4.8 Disposals 10.5 Marks 5.7
Hit-Outs 6.9 Tackles 2.3 Goals 0.8 AFL Fantasy 63.5


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r0CTua5bbA

[F'scary]

He sure is a big mother.

[whythelongface]

Thanks Hotdog.

Not a good return as a forward this year less than 20 goals. Looks like he can take a grab or two but for the money being asked I would rather look at someone else.

[FrediKanoute]

Nice highlights package. Look he is most probably not the messiah.......but is he an improvement on what we currently have......yes.

[ledge]

Great clunk marker , if he is looked for in a good team could be extremely good and dangerous

[LostDoggy]

I honestly am completely ignorant, so don't bag me out, but was wondering with him being such a great mark and a big guy, but not such a great kick for goal, if he could be tried as a full back?

[westdog54]

Cordy is soft and doesn't pose a great marking threat as a forward. Campbell is inconsistent, sometimes looks like he has arrived, other times like the reserves ruckman.

Cordy was fast from 'soft' according to those who went to the VFL game.

[boydogs]

I honestly am completely ignorant, so don't bag me out, but was wondering with him being such a great mark and a big guy, but not such a great kick for goal, if he could be tried as a full back?

He's slower than Roughead, would get burnt on the lead. He's really only got one trick, contested marking. Doesn't get easy ball on the lead, not particularly smart, and kicks it like a 10 year old throwing it up then swinging a boot at it.

If Carlton are looking to upgrade him to Bellchambers, shouldn't we be looking at Bellchambers too?

[1eyedog]

My concerns are mainly around his kicking skills. I agree with your logic but it's his kicking skills are what make me have some 2nd thoughts.

Brad Green has worked hard at his kicking - he's getting better, slowly but if he doesn't mark it he's useless. Most of his marks have been around the ground as 2nd ruck and he is athletic, so maybe there is some merit in using him for this role, but to assume he will be an effective forward, or 95% as good a Patton pre-knee, is very premature. My doubts are around his ability to take contested marks deep forward against real key backs. Carlton have been crying out for a key forward all year and he has been played there with limited success. Under 1 goal per game this year tells me he struggles deep forward and against quality backs. He's Leigh Brown with slightly better hands. I'm ok with the 2nd ruck role but not the FF one.

[bornadog]

Cordy was fast from 'soft' according to those who went to the VFL game.

He certainly isnot soft and throws his weight around a bit now.

[Ozza]

He's slower than Roughead, would get burnt on the lead. He's really only got one trick, contested marking. Doesn't get easy ball on the lead, not particularly smart, and kicks it like a 10 year old throwing it up then swinging a boot at it.

If Carlton are looking to upgrade him to Bellchambers, shouldn't we be looking at Bellchambers too?

On what basis is he slow...or slower than Roughead? He got the ball fairly easily on the lead against us in round 5.
He runs done Courtney Dempsey in that 2012 highlights package so he mustn't be an iceberg!

I'm certainly in agreeance with you that he's no defender. And I'm not 100% on board with getting him if it's too big a price - but the kid is a pretty good athlete...and 6 marks a game is probably more than any of our talls have produced this year.

[1eyedog]

Cordy was fast from 'soft' according to those who went to the VFL game.

Agreed, Cordy is turning into a man out there.

[1eyedog]

On what basis is he slow...or slower than Roughead? He got the ball fairly easily on the lead against us in round 5.
He runs done Courtney Dempsey in that 2012 highlights package so he mustn't be an iceberg!

I'm certainly in agreeance with you that he's no defender. And I'm not 100% on board with getting him if it's too big a price - but the kid is a pretty good athlete...and 6 marks a game is probably more than any of our talls have produced this year.

It's more about where he gets his marks - around the ground as 2nd ruck. If we need this great if we are looking for a FF to mark deep forward against quality backs we need to draft, wait or look elsewhere.

[F'scary]

Cordy was fast from 'soft' according to those who went to the VFL game.


He certainly isnot soft and throws his weight around a bit now.

Look forward to seeing it next year in the seniors, then.

[boydogs]

On what basis is he slow...or slower than Roughead? He got the ball fairly easily on the lead against us in round 5.
He runs done Courtney Dempsey in that 2012 highlights package so he mustn't be an iceberg!

Dempsey had no awareness and wasn't at full pace. Like most big blokes, it takes him a while to get a head of steam up, it's the acceleration from a standing start that counts on the lead.

[soupman]

That ball drop is cringeworthy.

I'm not that keen, Jones has also had seasons where he has had impressive contested marking stats and Casboult seems to be just as inconsistent. If he comes cheaply I'd be open to it but I would be dissapointed if we offered a big contract as is being rumoured when he seems to be only slightly above Campbell and Jones' level with very similiar strengths.

[LostDoggy]

Ben McEvoy? - I understand he only signed with the Hawks last year and they did give up a fair bit to aquire him (First rounder and Savage)

But if the Hawks continue with the Ceglar/Hale combo throughout this final series, could the lure of more game time and opportunity be enough to make him want to leave a successful side?

He is great around the ground and has shown to be more than handy up forward. Better yet he is only 25.

[1eyedog]

That ball drop is cringeworthy.

I'm not that keen, Jones has also had seasons where he has had impressive contested marking stats and Casboult seems to be just as inconsistent. If he comes cheaply I'd be open to it but I would be dissapointed if we offered a big contract as is being rumoured when he seems to be only slightly above Campbell and Jones' level with very similiar strengths.

He's a better mark than Dawes but Dawes is a far better kick, both are ok 2nd ruck options. I think most of us breathed a sigh of relief when Dawes chose the Demons. I hope we're not going to pay 500k pa.