Kicking the ball inside 50

[Twodogs]

I've been thinking about the traditional way teams kick the ball inside their 50 metre arc and whether it's the best method in our circumstances.

Usually a player looking to deliver the bll inside 50 will try and spot a teammate up with a footpass, put the ball in space so a forward can run onto it or kick it to a predetermined part of the ground (top of the square, hotspot 30 metres out) in order for a teammate to mark it and have a shot.

My question is with our short, mobile forward set up would we be better kicking scrubbers into the forward line. It goes against years of preserved wisdom but it would be a less predictable kick for defenders to defend. Our game pan mainly revolves around getting the ball to ground in the forward line and having our smalls run onto it, so is it as silly as it sounds?

[FrediKanoute]

The problem with scrubbers though is that they are just as unpredictable in terms of the way they bounce as a kick to a lead is. Our problem is our ponderous build up play which means entry into the forward line is slow and thus the space is congested making a lead difficult to execute.

[LostDoggy]

Scrubbers might come off 3 times out of 10. But the other 7 we are leaving ourselves exposed on the rebound.

We struggle enough as it is to stop a team going coast to coast when we have had a minute to set up the ground from a behind, let alone a scrubber which easily leads to counter attack for the opposition.

[Twodogs]

Scrubbers might come off 3 times out of 10. But the other 7 we are leaving ourselves exposed on the rebound.

We struggle enough as it is to stop a team going coast to coast when we have had a minute to set up the ground from a behind, let alone a scrubber which easily leads to counter attack for the opposition.

Maybe but aren't we leaving ourselves open to the same problem when we bring the ball to ground or create a stoppage? Effectively we are making it a 50/50 ball and backing our guys to win control?

I think if we practised scrubbing the ball in then our players will win control of it more often than not because it's what they get used to. And we wouldnt do it everytime, not even most times, but as a point of difference it could become another part of our arsenal.

[LostDoggy]

Maybe but aren't we leaving ourselves open to the same problem when we bring the ball to ground or create a stoppage? Effectively we are making it a 50/50 ball and backing our guys to win control?

I think if we practised scrubbing the ball in then our players will win control of it more often than not because it's what they get used to. And we wouldnt do it everytime, not even most times, but as a point of difference it could become another part of our arsenal.

Your probably right! And lets be honest it can't really get any worse than our current entries. I'm willing to try anything!

[Happy Days]

I've been thinking about the traditional way teams kick the ball inside their 50 metre arc and whether it's the best method in our circumstances.

Usually a player looking to deliver the bll inside 50 will try and spot a teammate up with a footpass, put the ball in space so a forward can run onto it or kick it to a predetermined part of the ground (top of the square, hotspot 30 metres out) in order for a teammate to mark it and have a shot.

My question is with our short, mobile forward set up would we be better kicking scrubbers into the forward line. It goes against years of preserved wisdom but it would be a less predictable kick for defenders to defend. Our game pan mainly revolves around getting the ball to ground in the forward line and having our smalls run onto it, so is it as silly as it sounds?

I've thought exactly the same thing, only for Fremantle's forward line, not ours.

Our forward might be small, but only Dahl and maybe Hunter can crumb. I'd much prefer an 09 style set up with precise kicking to a lead, which plays much more to the strengths of Crameri and Stringer (the good forwards).

[soupman]

I thought this briefly around the 08-09 period when everyone kept saying how our forwardline was too small. '

It's probably not a good default tactic, but could be useful if you are playing a side that is intercept marking everything (like Brian Lake vs Carlton all those years ago). The other option would be to activate it for short 3 minute patches in a match when you just swap Dahlhaus, Hunter, Cooney, Bontempelli and Dickson into the forwardline and try and expose the big defenders.

[bornadog]

I thought this briefly around the 08-09 period when everyone kept saying how our forwardline was too small. '

It's probably not a good default tactic, but could be useful if you are playing a side that is intercept marking everything (like Brian Lake vs Carlton all those years ago). The other option would be to activate it for short 3 minute patches in a match when you just swap Dahlhaus, Hunter, Cooney, Bontempelli and Dickson into the forwardline and try and expose the big defenders.

08/09 we were in the top two or three for goals kicked with our small forward line and only Geelong kicking more goals than us. Unfortunately what the Saints did was clog up the forward line, so the smalls couldn't get their hands on the ball. We needed a tall player that could take a contested mark. The scrubber is only going to work if the forward line has some space for the ball to roll along the ground. If you have space, why not hit a player on the lead.

[Mofra]

It is a good idea with a traditional 6 vs 6 forwardline given so many of our players are good at ground level - the problem is the opposition can easily push a number back and negate this advantage.

I like this sort of thinking outside the square though.

[soupman]

08/09 we were in the top two or three for goals kicked with our small forward line and only Geelong kicking more goals than us. Unfortunately what the Saints did was clog up the forward line, so the smalls couldn't get their hands on the ball. We needed a tall player that could take a contested mark. The scrubber is only going to work if the forward line has some space for the ball to roll along the ground. If you have space, why not hit a player on the lead.

Oh I don't dispute that, we were good deliverers to our forwards anyway so it was kind of redundant. It did occur to me though that it was an alternative seeing as we had so many small guy on tall guy matchups.

I'm not saying it's a good tactic, but I think it could work in brief and limited situations, and would certainly surprise the opposition, especially if you can engineer it so that they still have big guys down back when it happens.

[soupman]

It is a good idea with a traditional 6 vs 6 forwardline given so many of our players are good at ground level - the problem is the opposition can easily push a number back and negate this advantage.

I like this sort of thinking outside the square though.

You would obviously have to man up any spares to make it even, something which doesn't come naturally to us.

[LostDoggy]

Don't know, firstly you need to make sure the ball actually gets into the 50, grubbers obviously have the chance to be intercepted at any point along their path unlike a high long ball.

Happy for it to be tried as an option in the right circumstances, but not as a hard and fast game plan.

[Mofra]

You would obviously have to man up any spares to make it even, something which doesn't come naturally to us.
This could be playing into the opposition hands - we are close to the worst in the AFL from opposition scores from turnovers, giving them space to run into by reducing congestion in their forwardline would make this worse.

I think we can try this method at times, but we need to be wary of how our moves are being countered.

[1eyedog]

We've actually been trying this technique for the past 4 years TD. Of all our list I have only seen Higgins and Tutt actually constantly hit targets in our F50.

[Greystache]

We've actually been trying this technique for the past 4 years TD. Of all our list I have only seen Higgins and Tutt actually constantly hit targets in our F50.

True. Boyd and Howard, for example, have been kicking flat wobbly floaters at the forward's feet most of the time. There's no chance a defender will intercept mark one of those.

[mjp]

David Wheadon talks about 'Chaos Entries' in his latest coaching book.

I don't really want to say that TD is on to something, but a mongrel bouncing footy would be a lot harder for a defensive group to deal with than a high ball kicked directly to them. Anytime you do something unexpected it makes it harder for the defenders to defend.

[Twodogs]

David Wheadon talks about 'Chaos Entries' in his latest coaching book.

I don't really want to say that TD is on to something, but a mongrel bouncing footy would be a lot harder for a defensive group to deal with than a high ball kicked directly to them. Anytime you do something unexpected it makes it harder for the defenders to defend.

Exactly. All their lives they've been running to a spot and looked up waiting for the ball. If the ball comes rolling in and only the forwards know it's going to happen they are going to be a step behind.

[GVGjr]

David Wheadon talks about 'Chaos Entries' in his latest coaching book.

I don't really want to say that TD is on to something, but a mongrel bouncing footy would be a lot harder for a defensive group to deal with than a high ball kicked directly to them. Anytime you do something unexpected it makes it harder for the defenders to defend.

Our goal conversions from set shots is poor and given we have a number of smaller players I wonder if our aim should be to hack the ball into the forward line and make it a ground level contest given we don't have genuine marking options? Stringer and Crameri seem to do better in the contested situation anyway and I'm sure Hrovat, Bonts and Honeychurch could thrive if the ball was on the ground more. You would probably earn more free kicks as well.

[Twodogs]

Our goal conversions from set shots is poor and given we have a number of smaller players I wonder if our aim should be to hack the ball into the forward line and make it a ground level contest given we don't have genuine marking options? Stringer and Crameri seem to do better in the contested situation anyway and I'm sure Hrovat, Bonts and Honeychurch could thrive if the ball was on the ground more. You would probably earn more free kicks as well.


Good point. It's not something I thought of when I first started thinking about this but you're right. If the forward can get into front position then he is in a very good position to shield the ball and get a free kick.

[w3design]

My belief is you need to ensure your forward line is not dependant on any one form of entry.

quick movement into leading forwards is optimum. At the moment we try to drill the ball in instead of placing it in front of the leading forward.

quick kick to one on one to advantage is also very effective. At the moment we tend to just kick on top of their heads.

the kick to the hot spot or chaos kicks should only ever be done under pressure.

[stefoid]

One thing that does anoy me is kicking over Dalhaus' head. If you rent going to put it where he needs it then err on the side of a ground ball!!!

[Remi Moses]

One thing that does anoy me is kicking over Dalhaus' head. If you rent going to put it where he needs it then err on the side of a ground ball!!!

Or kicking it on top of his head !!
The only bloke at our club that size who could take a grab retired in 93
Brian Royal

[jeemak]

At present we either hack it into the forward line, bomb it into the forward line or dribble it into the forward line. The net result always seems to be congestion in our forward line where we either hack, bomb or dribble a kick to score.

It seems very rare that we'll execute well weighted passes to a man in space.

We need to fix our ball movement up the ground (use the corridor from time to time!) as well as our forward set up first and foremost and then improve our ball use.

If we do these things I'll be happy to experiment with the odd low ball into the forward line to mix things up. If McCartney spends the preseason working on a chaos forward line structure and low balls into the forward line then he needs to be sacked.

[Torpedo]

Could make a virtue out of a current weakness; our shocking kicking skills going into the 50m arc. Boyd would probably find a way to have the ball bounce on its end and up into the outstretched arms of the taller defenders though.

[1eyedog]

David Wheadon talks about 'Chaos Entries' in his latest coaching book.

I don't really want to say that TD is on to something, but a mongrel bouncing footy would be a lot harder for a defensive group to deal with than a high ball kicked directly to them. Anytime you do something unexpected it makes it harder for the defenders to defend.

My problem with this is the fact that you are going from a situation where you have possession of the footy to one where you are creating a 50/50 contest. I'd rather focus on hitting up targets to eliminate as much risk as possible with the tumbling ball.

[craigsahibee]

Or we could just spend the summer practising kicking the ball to our forwards advantage. Call it radical, but I reckon it's worth a shot.

[Twodogs]

Or we could just spend the summer practising kicking the ball to our forwards advantage. Call it radical, but I reckon it's worth a shot.


That is pretty out there. They might get around to it. First they have to sort out who can run the furthest.

[Torpedo]

Can someone please explain to me the crux of this matter. From out of the tens of thousands of kids who play this game at junior level, the drafters selects the supposed elite players numbering at best 100 per year. How is it so many have major skill and technique flaws? I look at young Talia and think he will always be in trouble with getting the ball to boot quickly; many, most? are completely one sided for kicking and hand balling. They have obviously dedicated themselves to being professional players without equipping themselves with the appropriate tools.

Other than politics I can't think of a profession with such disregard for having to learn the fundamentals. Is it a systemic problem, coaching failure, should the draft be upped in age so they can learn in a less rushed atmosphere? Its a mystery to me.

[Twodogs]

Can someone please explain to me the crux of this matter. From out of the tens of thousands of kids who play this game at junior level, the drafters selects the supposed elite players numbering at best 100 per year. How is it so many have major skill and technique flaws? I look at young Talia and think he will always be in trouble with getting the ball to boot quickly; many, most? are completely one sided for kicking and hand balling. They have obviously dedicated themselves to being professional players without equipping themselves with the appropriate tools.

Other than politics I can't think of a profession with such disregard for having to learn the fundamentals. Is it a systemic problem, coaching failure, should the draft be upped in age so they can learn in a less rushed atmosphere? Its a mystery to me.


It's a mystery to me too Torpedo. I would have thought that learning to kick the ball properly would be the most important tasks or an aspiring footballer. It's like being a carpenter but not bothering to learn how to use a hammer.

It seems to me that we are more interested in how to run and tackle and all the periphery of the game and we just ignore the one basic skill. Are we just assuming that kids will know how to kick properly? Have we taken our eye of the ball?

[F'scary]

It is all about timing. The good sides all appear to be working in sync. Sides like ours are much more scratchier. We have to re-find that in-sync style of moving the ball. We had it in our prelim final years just 4-5 years ago.

[Twodogs]

BTW did anyone notice North's second goal last night? Ball was bobbing around just forward of the wing and Thomas soccered it 50 metres into the forward line. As soon as Goldstein got front position he just leant over the ball and drew a free kick.