Tom Lonergan

[Remi Moses]

Apparently we've made a 3 year offer for Tom Lonergan .
He has another year left on his contract, and at 30 I don't get it!

[Bulldog4life]

Apparently we've made a 3 year offer for Tom Lonergan .
He has another year left on his contract, and at 30 I don't get it!

Have you got a link for this Remi?

[bornadog]

Have you got a link for this Remi?

SEN are reporting the Western Bulldogs are chasing Geelong's Tom Lonergan

[bornadog]

If true this is a joke.

[BulldogBelle]

l would very disappointed in the dogs to be chasing a 30 year old.
Straight swap with Cooney;)

[lemmon]

I can't see them letting him go cheaply considering they're still in the window and there are no obvious replacements on the Cats list

[whythelongface]

A decent enough player but why would we be interested? Unless we are looking at moving Roughy forward and having Lonergan assist the development of Talia and Roberts.

[Axe Man]

I think we need to take unsubstantiated rumours from sources like SEN with a grain of salt. Last week we were apparently chasing Daniel Merrett and today Greg Swann comes out and says there has been minimal interest in him and they expect him to stay at the Lions. Personally I'll wait until there's some credible information on trades before I start worrying.

[KT31]

l would very disappointed in the dogs to be chasing a 30 year old.
Straight swap with Cooney;)

Cooneys worth more, he may have a bung knee but has two good kidneys and a brownlow.:)

[1eyedog]

Apparently we've made a 3 year offer for Tom Lonergan .
He has another year left on his contract, and at 30 I don't get it!

Stupid waste of time and picks. He has 2 years left the third is being used as incentive to get him here. Don't understand this one at all.

[chef]

Would it be a trade or FA?

Edit. Just read above. This makes no sense for me.

[lemmon]

Would it be a trade or FA?

Trade, is contracted

[Remi Moses]

Would it be a trade or FA?

Edit. Just read above. This makes no sense for mw.

He's contracted until end of 2015

[Sedat]

If we had decent defensive talls coming through, all this Merrett and Lonergan talk would not be happening. The reality is that we have major holes down back and not a lot coming through to fill those holes. Talia and Fletcher are just about the two most important players on our list - if they fail to make the grade, we almost lose the opportunity to contend in the next 4-5 years.

[LostDoggy]

I think we have a pretty massive gap in meeting 95% minimum salary cap......

[jeemak]

It makes sense if the outcome of the end of season review was an acknowledgement that we need to give ourselves a chance to win more games of football in the next two years as a co-priority alongside developing our younger players.

I read in the Merrett thread that the recruiting of 30 year old defenders smells of Bmac trying to save his skin, but to me that's highly unlikely. More likely would be pressure from our executive to win more games of football more quickly to help us stay relevant in the eyes of our supporters.

[1eyedog]

If we had decent defensive talls coming through, all this Merrett and Lonergan talk would not be happening. The reality is that we have major holes down back and not a lot coming through to fill those holes. Talia and Fletcher are just about the two most important players on our list - if they fail to make the grade, we almost lose the opportunity to contend in the next 4-5 years.

Exactly we need to play them or at least one of them fairly consistently next year. I thought this was going to be the case when Lake was traded out but it never happened and all we saw all year again was Morris, Wood and Young being man-handled by bigger opponents.

[Dry Rot]

Would prefer Merrett if we had to take one.

[bornadog]

If we had decent defensive talls coming through, all this Merrett and Lonergan talk would not be happening. The reality is that we have major holes down back and not a lot coming through to fill those holes. Talia and Fletcher are just about the two most important players on our list - if they fail to make the grade, we almost lose the opportunity to contend in the next 4-5 years.

and whose fault is that? I come back to the Lake decision and why I didn't want to break the umbilical call.

Do we ever plan for the future, seems not.

[bornadog]

Would prefer Merrett if we had to take one.

if we had to choose then I agree.

[SlimPickens]

Do we ever plan for the future, seems not.

Silly statement considering recent events and the importance the club has placed on drafting the last 2-3 years. I understand your feelings on the Lake trade but don't see why you're biting so hard about unsubstantiated rumours .

[G-Mo77]

Would prefer Merrett if we had to take one.

So would I and would probably be cheaper. If we get one of these 2 Austin would have to be gone. 3 years though?

[1eyedog]

and whose fault is that? I come back to the Lake decision and why I didn't want to break the umbilical call.

Do we ever plan for the future, seems not.

Keeping Lake on isn't the answer but you're right we need to have one eye on the future and play what we've got in Talia and Roberts. Young's gone and Austin isn't up for it so they are our hopes.

[lemmon]

I think we have a pretty massive gap in meeting 95% minimum salary cap......

Bump Morris' contract up to 650k for the next year or two and send him out with a retirement bonus then....

[bornadog]

Silly statement considering recent events and the importance the club has placed on drafting the last 2-3 years. I understand your feelings on the Lake trade but don't see why you're biting so hard about unsubstantiated rumours .

Not going in hard just commenting that "if true" I don't want to bring in another 30 year old as that is not the answer. We tried that with Goodes and that was a big fail.

[LostDoggy]

Yes Lonergan is old, but this thread just confirms for me what I already suspected, which is that he's in the top couple of underrated players in the competition.

Harry Taylor get all the acolades, but who is doing the job on the best forward week in week out? Lonergan.

Having said that I'm still not convinced it's a good move by the club to recruit him and to be honest I couldn't see him wanting to come.

Let Talia/Roberts/Lever develop.

[Twodogs]

Not going in hard just commenting that "if true" I don't want to bring in another 30 year old as that is not the answer. We tried that with Goodes and that was a big fail.

The difference is that Goodes was untried at AFL level and Merrett and Lonergan have shown they can pay at AFL level.

[bornadog]

The difference is that Goodes was untried at AFL level and Merrett and Lonergan have shown they can pay at AFL level.

Do you want another clubs hasbeen?

[Bulldog4life]

Mark Stevens @Stevo7AFL · 22m 22 minutes ago

Dogs went hard after Steven May of GC through season, but fell short .. Now Lonergan .. Key back assault

https://twitter.com/Stevo7AFL

[divvydan]

Mark Stevens tweeted that we had tried to lure Steven May from GC during the year. Clearly we see it as a position of need to be filled, which it is. Getting a player who can fill it is much more difficult.

[bornadog]

Mark Stevens tweeted that we had tried to lure Steven May from GC during the year. Clearly we see it as a position of need to be filled, which it is. Getting a player who can fill it is much more difficult.

Maybe we should have thrown Roberts and Talia in the deep end and learnt on the job and not stuck learning at VFL level. We had nothing to lose.

[LostDoggy]

If we had decent defensive talls coming through, all this Merrett and Lonergan talk would not be happening. The reality is that we have major holes down back and not a lot coming through to fill those holes. Talia and Fletcher are just about the two most important players on our list - if they fail to make the grade, we almost lose the opportunity to contend in the next 4-5 years.

Totally agree with this. If Morris goes down we're in trouble. Obviously then it's a chance for Talia and Roberts to step in but developing players isn't all about just sticking them out there on the field. Developing players is also about having experience around them and a Merrett or Lonergan have just that. The concern in my opinion is about what we give up to get these guys in their 30s

[chef]

and whose fault is that? I come back to the Lake decision and why I didn't want to break the umbilical call.

Do we ever plan for the future, seems not.

It was Lake's decision to leave, not the clubs. Plus we had or were about to draft Talia and Roberts (both KPD) how is that not forward planning?

[bornadog]

It was Lake's decision to leave, not the clubs. Plus we had or were about to draft Talia and Roberts (both KPD) how is that jot forward planning?

I don't want to go into the Lake thing and why he left etc etc and whether good or bad.

My point is on the one hand posters want to get rid of players hitting 30 but there are other consequences, like not having a Lake in the backline and his experience to teach the younger players. So what happens, we have to go and get another 30 year old.

This is bad planning.

[chef]

Is it bad planning if the younger guys dont come on as fast as we want or just hindsight?

I guess its all moot with Lakey anyway as he's the one who wanted out.

[bornadog]

Is it bad planning if the younger guys dont come on as fast as we want or just hindsight?

I guess its all moot with Lakey anyway as he's the one who wanted out.

I don't believe he wanted out - he was told they will be playing younger players in the backline and he is to play forward. He didn't want that. Tom Williams same, ie not in the backline. If you don't believe me fine, but Macca told my mate in the rooms before the Brisbane match in 2012.

[bulldogtragic]

Surely someone is taking the piss. If even half the trade talk happens, I will be annoyed.

[bornadog]

Surely someone is taking the piss. If even half the trade talk happens, I will be annoyed.

I don't believe any of it but happy to discuss my thoughts :)

[jeemak]

I don't believe he wanted out - he was told they will be playing younger players in the backline and he is to play forward. He didn't want that. Tom Williams same, ie not in the backline. If you don't believe me fine, but Macca told my mate in the rooms before the Brisbane match in 2012.

This is my understanding of it.

Lake was told we wanted him to play forward for the benefit of the team, to enable us to develop at least one player at FB for the coming years.

Lake decided he didn't want to do that, so was moved on with mutual agreement. Lake was happy, and we began developing Roughead with an eye to the future.

Win win.

Now we have a scenario where we're concerned that Talia and Roberts may not come along as we'd hoped, and we're exposed if Morris goes down so we're looking for experienced quality to play in our defence for three years to allow us to develop Talia and Roberts further, or develop another defender to replace either one or both of them.

It's not that difficult to understand, surely?

Also, consider the only available defender of any note (who probably isn't as good as Lonergan anyway) that fits the ideal age profile just moved to Hawthorn on a huge contract and probably didn't even consider coming to us, and what other viable options do we have?

[bornadog]

This is my understanding of it.

Lake was told we wanted him to play forward for the benefit of the team, to enable us to develop at least one player at FB for the coming years.

Lake decided he didn't want to do that, so was moved on with mutual agreement. Lake was happy, and we began developing Roughead with an eye to the future.

Win win.

Now we have a scenario where we're concerned that Talia and Roberts may not come along as we'd hoped, and we're exposed if Morris goes down so we're looking for experienced quality to play in our defence for three years to allow us to develop Talia and Roberts further, or develop another defender to replace either one or both of them.

It's not that difficult to understand, surely?

Also, consider the only available defender of any note (who probably isn't as good as Lonergan anyway) that fits the ideal age profile just moved to Hawthorn on a huge contract and probably didn't even consider coming to us, and what options do we have?

You have highlighted my point. We made a mistake by moving Lake and now we are trying to rectify it, however, Lonergan is not the answer at age 30 and will be 31 next year.

[bornadog]

Key Geelong defender Lonergan on the Dogs' radar

THE WESTERN Bulldogs have approached Geelong key defender Tom Lonergan about a move to the Whitten Oval as they seek to bolster their undermanned defence.

Lonergan, 30, is contracted with Geelong to the end of 2015, but AFL.com.au understands the Bulldogs have expressed their interest in trading for the premiership defender.

Western Bulldogs coach Brendan McCartney was a development coach at Geelong during the first eight years of Lonergan's career (2003-2010).

Lonergan's former teammates Matthew Scarlett, Cameron Mooney, Joel Corey and Steven King are all on the Dogs' coaching panel as well.

The Bulldogs' approach to Lonergan follows their inquiry about Brisbane Lions key defender Daniel Merrett, who turns 30 in December, earlier this trade period.

Since Brian Lake's departure to the Hawks at the end of 2012, Jordan Roughead and the undersized Dale Morris (190cm) have shouldered most of the Bulldogs' key defensive responsibilities.

The addition of Lonergan, 198cm, or Merrett, 195cm, would ensure the Bulldogs were much better placed to counter opposition power forwards.

Lonergan has played 145 games with the Cats since debuting in 2005, and was a member of the 2011 premiership side and the losing 2008 Grand Final team.

He was also selected in the preliminary All Australian squad in 2012 and 2014.

Link: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-10-08/key-geelong-defender-tom-lonergan-on-the-bulldogs-radar?utm_medium=RSS

[jeemak]

You have highlighted my point. We made a mistake by moving Lake and now we are trying to rectify it, however, Lonergan is not the answer at age 30 and will be 31 next year.

That's where you and I differ. I don't believe for a raft of reasons we erred in letting Lake go - or asking him to play forward. Yes we may have been too bullish in our expectations of Talia and Roberts, and while that's unfortunate it is what it is and needs to be worked around.

When the season starts Lake will be 33, and definitely not the ideal candidate to assist us for the next three years. Lonergan is an excellent full back, and as I've said, if there's no available player of comparable ability that fits the perfect age profile we may as well take him on. At least he'll actually help us be more competitive over the next two to three years.

[Jeanette54]

If we had decent defensive talls coming through, all this Merrett and Lonergan talk would not be happening.

I think our problems relate to all our potential talls not coming through, both forward and back. Neither Liam Jones, Ayce Cordy, Tom Campbell, Michael Talia or Fletcher Roberts have been able to lock down a permanent berth at senior level or even suggested that they are likely to.

Which is why the attempted trade for Levi Greenwood was incomprehensible, that wouldn't have fixed anything.

Given that we need to win games to maintain membership, as well as continue with the development process isn't an easy call.

Tom Lonergan, depending on what we have to give for him, is at least going to help address this for a short time. Barry Hall was always a limited time call, and he certainly provided value.

And as Terry Wallace pointed out on Trade Radio, we cannot afford to be without Liam Jones.

Critically speaking we need to admit we have a problem in the development area and perhaps draft/employ aother coach for talls development instead.

[bornadog]

That's where you and I differ. I don't believe for a raft of reasons we erred in letting Lake go - or asking him to play forward. Yes we may have been too bullish in our expectations of Talia and Roberts, and while that's unfortunate it is what it is and needs to be worked around.

When the season starts Lake will be 33, and definitely not the ideal candidate to assist us for the next three years. Lonergan is an excellent full back, and as I've said, if there's no available player of comparable ability that fits the perfect age profile we may as well take him on. At least he'll actually help us be more competitive over the next two to three years.

We will see what happens as I can't imagine Geelong would want to lose him.

[stefoid]

As Simon Dalrymple so flippantly says - we pick the best available, then we 'compliment' those draftees through trade.

well, this is it what that looks like. throwing cash and picks at anyone we think we can shake loose.

That being said, as long as we get the right players when we need them, I dont mind. But its not as easy as he makes it sound.
Lonergan to FB and Roughie to FF for the next 3 years would be good.

[Remi Moses]

I think our problems relate to all our potential talls not coming through, both forward and back. Neither Liam Jones, Ayce Cordy, Tom Campbell, Michael Talia or Fletcher Roberts have been able to lock down a permanent berth at senior level or even suggested that they are likely to.

Which is why the attempted trade for Levi Greenwood was incomprehensible, that wouldn't have fixed anything.

Given that we need to win games to maintain membership, as well as continue with the development process isn't an easy call.

Tom Lonergan, depending on what we have to give for him, is at least going to help address this for a short time. Barry Hall was always a limited time call, and he certainly provided value.

And as Terry Wallace pointed out on Trade Radio, we cannot afford to be without Liam Jones.

Critically speaking we need to admit we have a problem in the development area and perhaps draft/employ aother coach for talls development instead.

So why keep Liam when he wants out?
We can't overpay him for under performing, and keep him just because he is tall.
Liam and his manager( and Wallace) reckon Liam is a second or third tall!
We already have that, Stringer and Crameri .

[G-Mo77]

Maybe we should have thrown Roberts and Talia in the deep end and learnt on the job and not stuck learning at VFL level. We had nothing to lose.

Amen brother.

Instead Austin was promoted and played ahead of them. Roberts earned a spot and only played when everyone else fell over. Really disappointing.

[mighty_west]

As Simon Dalrymple so flippantly says - we pick the best available, then we 'compliment' those draftees through trade.

well, this is it what that looks like. throwing cash and picks at anyone we think we can shake loose.

That being said, as long as we get the right players when we need them, I dont mind. But its not as easy as he makes it sound.
Lonergan to FB and Roughie to FF for the next 3 years would be good.

Agreed, even Roughie as that extra ruckman (his natural position) if we offloaded Minson and still chase a quality key forward.

[Greystache]

Amen brother.

Instead Austin was promoted and played ahead of them. Roberts earned a spot and only played when everyone else fell over. Really disappointing.

Roberts needed a shoulder reconstruction for the last 8 week of the season. We gave him a game in round 23 as consolation for missing Footscray's finals series so he would be right for the start of preseason. He physically wasn't right but it was thought he'd still get a bit out of playing VFL.

[mighty_west]

I don't see an issue with bringing in older players if it helps our needs and our defensive end certainty needs another experienced head, say if we lost Cooney, similar age but probably has less time in the game due to his cronic knee injuries, but I see and we all know there is a real imbalance on the list, Einstein can see our emerging midfield and how exciting that is yet our structure lacks big time.

So to offload Cooney isn't going to hurt that much imo even though he's still in best 22, say a virtual swap of similar aged players with Lonergan but he helps our structure alot more going into next season and the year after, he is also a proven defender with alot of runs on the board and still in very good form.

Alot of supporters jump up and down if the team doesn't improve, I ask, how is it supposed to improve if you don't do anything about it? Reports suggest we have tried to lure May from the Suns and Sam Reid but unsuccessful with both, this is obviously another move to fix this whilst our young talls are still not ready and need desperate help.

I see this "oh we shouldn't bring in older players" as a simplistic way of looking at things, "oh but what's the point if such and such is the same age and we want to get rid of him" etc...

[Remi Moses]

I don't see an issue with bringing in older players if it helps our needs and our defensive end certainty needs another experienced head, say if we lost Cooney, similar age but probably has less time in the game due to his cronic knee injuries, but I see and we all know there is a real imbalance on the list, Einstein can see our emerging midfield and how exciting that is yet our structure lacks big time.

So to offload Cooney isn't going to hurt that much imo even though he's still in best 22, say a virtual swap of similar aged players with Lonergan but he helps our structure alot more going into next season and the year after, he is also a proven defender with alot of runs on the board and still in very good form.

Alot of supporters jump up and down if the team doesn't improve, I ask, how is it supposed to improve if you don't do anything about it? Reports suggest we have tried to lure May from the Suns and Sam Reid but unsuccessful with both, this is obviously another move to fix this whilst our young talls are still not ready and need desperate help.

I see this "oh we shouldn't bring in older players" as a simplistic way of looking at things, "oh but what's the point if such and such is the same age and we want to get rid of him" etc...

Some very good points made in particular with Cooney departing from a structural area which is a strength .
The only point I'd make is that we still need to bring in Key position under 18 types, to complement our list .
I'm worried about the coin they'd be throwing at Lonergan, and I'd like it to be a 2 year deal .
Three years for a 30 year old is high risk for me

[G-Mo77]

Roberts needed a shoulder reconstruction for the last 8 week of the season. We gave him a game in round 23 as consolation for missing Footscray's finals series so he would be right for the start of preseason. He physically wasn't right but it was thought he'd still get a bit out of playing VFL.

Fair enough then. :)

[1eyedog]

Pulled the trigger to early and messed it up. Sorry!

[1eyedog]

Some very good points made in particular with Cooney departing from a structural area which is a strength .
The only point I'd make is that we still need to bring in Key position under 18 types, to complement our list .
I'm worried about the coin they'd be throwing at Lonergan, and I'd like it to be a 2 year deal .
Three years for a 30 year old is high risk for me

If we're really that keen on him we'll probably need to give him 3 years as incentive to get across the line. It was reported on SEN that it was actually Scarlett who first spoke to Lonergan about the idea, which he was open too, and then we put forward the offer.

[BulldogBelle]

As Lonergan still has a year to run on his contract what will it cost us to to get him over the line. l don't think a 3rd round would do it and l would not want to hand over a second. 3rd round pick and box of knives...sorry meant J Grant.....:D

[Dry Rot]

If we end up with Durdan or Lever at pick #6, will getting Lonergan still be a good move?

[Webby]

As Lonergan still has a year to run on his contract what will it cost us to to get him over the line. l don't think a 3rd round would do it and l would not want to hand over a second. 3rd round pick and box of knives...sorry meant J Grant.....:D

If we were to do it, I'd be happy with a 3rd round plus Grant. I'm a big advocate of drafting, but if Cooney goes, we probably need to re-balance towards a touch of experience. Might not be bad business - particularly if he's able to be an onfield conduit between Scarlett and Talia and Roberts.

Our midfield kids are nearly there, but our young defenders are still way off. They need help. We're still doing plenty of drafting, so I don't mind the balance that this brings.

[Webby]

If we end up with Durdan or Lever at pick #6, will getting Lonergan still be a good move?

Durdin or Lever will take the duration of the remainder of Lonergan's career to step into his role. So I don't think there is an issue. In fact, they could benefit from playing alongside him early in their careers.

[Dancin' Douggy]

No. No. No. Go to the draft.

[LostDoggy]

To be honest, I'm in the all for it camp.....
- Move Roughie forward (ruck relief) - his best position IMO.
- Bring Talia, Cordy and any other KPD we draft in and expose them to key forwards with the support of both Lonergan & Morris.
If any Key forwards get a hold of Talia we can quickly switch it up.

[GVGjr]

Silly statement considering recent events and the importance the club has placed on drafting the last 2-3 years. I understand your feelings on the Lake trade but don't see why you're biting so hard about unsubstantiated rumours .

People are quick to think the worst.

[LostDoggy]

Short term gap cover yes, but someone to assist in the development of our young KPD. Im not concerned about money, given the age of our team we can cover decent offers to a number of players.

[Maddog37]

Get the Cats to nullify his contract and pick him up as a free agent like Port are looking at for Ryder. Win for all.

[ledge]

Get the Cats to nullify his contract and pick him up as a free agent like Port are looking at for Ryder. Win for all.

If he was at essendon we could.

[divvydan]

I quite like the idea if at the same time you're drafting someone to take over in a few years. This does rely on a few notions.
1. Either the club doesn't believe Austin, Talia or Roberts are capable of holding down a KPD slot or we believe Roughead is better suited as a fwd/2nd ruck.
2. Assuming the former in (1), we draft a KPD, probably with one of our 2nd round picks, to take over in a few years.
3. The contract is 2 years with an option for a third if certain criteria are met, rather than being straight 3 year contract.

In terms of what it would cost. I would suspect the cost to be one of our 2nd round picks and maybe swap of Geelong's 2nd round for our 3rd rd, so something like Longeran + 35 for 27 + 45. The value of the contract will probably be somewhere in the 400-500k/yr range, most likely front ended as it seems we're likely to have quite a lot of salary cap room next year.

For Geelong to accept, now that Frawley has chosen Hawthorn, Lonergan would have to request a trade for Geelong to consider letting him go. I could see Geelong letting Lonergan go after next year as a way of rebuilding their list (like Chappy and Pods) so they may well require less than they would normally ask for. Personally I think they'd like Lonergan for #27 straight out but for the reason just mentioned, I think they'll consider a swap of picks as well. Again this relies on Lonergan asking to leave.

[LostDoggy]

Get the Cats to nullify his contract and pick him up as a free agent like Port are looking at for Ryder. Win for all.

Now there is a thought. Cats get first round compensation (pick 15), we then trade a player to the cats (Grant) for a low pick, or if there is any merit in the Minson trade they give us a second rounder for him.

[azabob]

If he was at essendon we could.

What Maddog is referring to has nothing to do with the Essendon situation.

[G-Mo77]

What Maddog is referring to has nothing to do with the Essendon situation.

That's an idea Essendon and the AFL have come up with.

[Rocco Jones]

If we get the Cats to nulify his contract and pick him up as a free agent it will effect the pick we get for Higgins.

[Twodogs]

If we get the Cats to nulify his contract and pick him up as a free agent it will effect the pick we get for Higgins.

Yep. We might as well hand pick 28 to Geelong.

[Twodogs]

Or say that we will and offer them pick 48 or whatever is our third round pick.

Or just take all our picks to the draft and draft young players instead of trading them away for 30 YOs. But obviously a large part of the review centred around "win some games for Gods sake. We don't care what you do" because the no trading for players over 25 rule has gone out the window too.

[Maddog37]

If we get the Cats to nulify his contract and pick him up as a free agent it will effect the pick we get for Higgins.

Good point. Hadn't thought of that. Perhaps if Cooney wants out we could use the same trick to offset the Lonergan cost........

All pie in the sky stuff anyway.

[bulldogtragic]

Surely there is a state league defender somewhere in Australia that could stop gap for pick 100 rather than having to pay overs to Geelong for a player under contract who they would want to retain. Take Lewis Taylor at pick 28 or so last year and think 28 or so for Lonergan this year. That exactly the scenario as we'e had 4 decent names walk too. If we're in this plan than let's stick the course, but pissing away our future for a 2 year player who won't really do anything for us long term is nuts and contrary to everything we've been told about what we are doing. I've said that the losses will stack up against the Macca's and that natural instinct will be to trade to get a few more wins to keep the media at bay. But the club has to resist pissing more picks away than we've already done in our history.

I'm starting to feel a little group think. One day North and Carlton are being criticised by some for bringing in older players to top up for wins and how that's not a good thing. Then when we are alleged to be doing it, it's a good thing. We picked our coach for the long term. We've kept our coach. We've got some senior players walking out which will give us some picks for the future. Just stick the course and draft more, when it comes to our inevitable close pre-lim final in 5 years I want our pick 28 to advantage us somehow in either strengthening competition for best 22 or impacting the best 22. Topping up with a Sauce or Lonergan is counter to everything we've been told by the club. It's just not good long term and I will be pissed if we lose another pre-lim by next to nothing only to think about Mundy and others running around for other teams with picks we pissed away. If it meant rookie picking Austin as insurance with pick 100 then i'd rather that for one year and pick 28 then not. Just stick the course.

[G-Mo77]

Or say that we will and offer them pick 48 or whatever is our third round pick.

Or just take all our picks to the draft and draft young players instead of trading them away for 30 YOs. But obviously a large part of the review centred around "win some games for Gods sake. We don't care what you do" because the no trading for players over 25 rule has gone out the window too.

This has been drumming around in my head since I heard the news about Lonergan. Coach is desperate for results and goes for the quick fix by throwing a ludicrous contract at someone who will only give us 2 years max decent service who we'll have to give up at least a 2nd round pick for.

The comments from Mooney today drive that home as Macca is desperate for "book ends"

“Brendan McCartney has spoken about how he needs a couple of book ends and Tommy Lonergan would be a fantastic fit for them.

“It’s a tough one, you’d almost say you’d have to take it, security is the greatest thing a 30 year-old can get in football,” Mooney said on The Run Home.

http://www.sen.com.au/news/mooney-on-lonergan-christensen-cats

[ratsmac]

I'm in the dunno camp on this one. Everyone has some very good points for and against. His age is a real issue for me.

[G-Mo77]

I'm in the dunno camp on this one. Everyone has some very good points for and against. His age is a real issue for me.

The age doesn't really bother me, I'm happy to get help for our back half but at a much cheaper price. Lonergan will cost us a 2nd round pick and will be with us for 3 years making him 34 when his contract expires. Stupid!

[FrediKanoute]

The age doesn't really bother me, I'm happy to get help for our back half but at a much cheaper price. Lonergan will cost us a 2nd round pick and will be with us for 3 years making him 34 when his contract expires. Stupid!

I agree this smacks of desperation. It smacks of we had plan A; Plan A hasn't worked so lets go to plan B; plan B hasn't worked so lets panic.

Does on more season without a quality back really matter? How many times did our backline get monstered by a power forward? Giving up a quality player in Higgins to then go and bring in a 30 year old key back is in my mind dumb. If they got him on a free or late pick maybe - we are just handing Geelong a top 30 pick when in 12 months the guy will either retire or walk for nothing.

[Webby]

I'm in the dunno camp on this one. Everyone has some very good points for and against. His age is a real issue for me.

I'm not particularly here nor there on it either. I can see both sides of the equation and the merits behind them. I don't think it's going to happen in any case.

[Bulldog Revolution]

OK, so my two cents

Like Lonergan as a player, think he has far more than Merrett left

Don't like the idea of giving up much for him - ideally keep all 2nd round picks

[Before I Die]

I keep on reading "we have to threaten for, or be in the eight next year", then I read "it doesn't matter if they aren't ready, play Roberts and Talia regardless". Not sure if these two ideas are compatible. Then again, if the plan is bottom out, blame the coach, sack the coach, hire a new coach and then pick up a young gun forward/defender in the draft, then perhaps the two ideas are not at odds with each other after all.

I don't think this coach and administration are ever going to act with panic or desperation, though they may get it wrong.

It appears we can't get a young gun tall defender and it is quite likely that our game plan and development of our other young defenders won't come together without some tall support. Lonergan is the first choice FB in a strong team. Let's see what the asking price is, I am sure we won't sell the farm. And if Roberts and/or Talia are able to force him out of the side during the year, then that is a good thing.

[stefoid]

If we end up with Durdan or Lever at pick #6, will getting Lonergan still be a good move?

Those guys will be cherry ripe in 3 years time.

In the meantime, how about we play lonegan (or Merret) at FB, Roughie at FF, and ease Talia and Roberts into fulltime senior footy as 2nd talls in defence and attack respectively?

If I got anything out of Terry Wallets summary of our club at the moment, its that the midfield needs a real structure to play within, not an imaginary structure where the patterns they are taught to play either dont work or they have to learn to play without the structure.

[bulldogtragic]

A contracted and wanted KP player demands pick 27 or 28 if we get it from Carlton.

There are many good kids at this pick. Many. Giving up such a pick for a 30yo player when we are a long way from our window is madness. Justify it how you want, I'd take the rising star from this year taken with pick 28 than a 30yo contracted player.

[azabob]

A contracted and wanted KP player demands pick 27 or 28 if we get it from Carlton.

There are many good kids at this pick. Many. Giving up such a pick for a 30yo player when we are a long way from our window is madness. Justify it how you want, I'd take the rising star from this year taken with pick 28 than a 30yo contracted player.

I like your summary. But we are so desperate for a proper key back it is not funny. How do we over come this?

Do we draft only KP's this draft and hope two come off?

[stefoid]

We dont know what the deal is yet. Hun as reported 1.5mil over 3 years to attract Lonegans attention!!!!! I can imagine the breakdown of that would be something like 800K, 500K, 200K, for obvious reasons. (if figure is remotely true)

But picks? players? Would we do Minson straight swap? Does this expain shedding Coons and his salary for peanuts?

[Twodogs]

We could bring in 3 kids with those picks and look at them and smile as they tear games apart not believing our luck that we got them with 3 consecutive picks.

I hope we don't waste pick twenty anything on this. I could understand the logic if he was a RFA and we didn't have the Higgins pick.

But I don't because he isn't and we do.

[Webby]

We dont know what the deal is yet. Hun as reported 1.5mil over 3 years to attract Lonegans attention!!!!! I can imagine the breakdown of that would be something like 800K, 500K, 200K, for obvious reasons. (if figure is remotely true)

But picks? players? Would we do Minson straight swap? Does this expain shedding Coons and his salary for peanuts?

I don't mind the idea of Minson straight swap. Cordy and Campbell need a run at it next year and we need a 30yo defender more than a 30yo ruckman. Will gets a shot at top 6 footy and everyone's reasonably happy.

[stefoid]

I don't mind the idea of Minson straight swap. Cordy and Campbell need a run at it next year and we need a 30yo defender more than a 30yo ruckman. Will gets a shot at top 6 footy and everyone's reasonably happy.

Could happen. Willberforce would be on decent coin. From a dispassionate list-manangement perspective, it makes sense.

[ledge]

I do have to ask how the hell would a reporter have any idea on a wage offered isn't it confidential, if my pay was scattered all over the papers I wouldn't be happy, all guess work and just trying to sell papers I rekon.

[Twodogs]

This has been drumming around in my head since I heard the news about Lonergan. Coach is desperate for results and goes for the quick fix by throwing a ludicrous contract at someone who will only give us 2 years max decent service who we'll have to give up at least a 2nd round pick for.

The comments from Mooney today drive that home as Macca is desperate for "book ends"

“Brendan McCartney has spoken about how he needs a couple of book ends and Tommy Lonergan would be a fantastic fit for them.

“It’s a tough one, you’d almost say you’d have to take it, security is the greatest thing a 30 year-old can get in football,” Mooney said on The Run Home.

http://www.sen.com.au/news/mooney-on-lonergan-christensen-cats

Well he's right.

I just think if there's no big names or suitable players that want to come then so be it. We should just wait and see what happens by the end of trade week.

But bookends he says. Maybe we aren't finished.

[jeemak]

This has been drumming around in my head since I heard the news about Lonergan. Coach is desperate for results and goes for the quick fix by throwing a ludicrous contract at someone who will only give us 2 years max decent service who we'll have to give up at least a 2nd round pick for.

The comments from Mooney today drive that home as Macca is desperate for "book ends"

“Brendan McCartney has spoken about how he needs a couple of book ends and Tommy Lonergan would be a fantastic fit for them.

“It’s a tough one, you’d almost say you’d have to take it, security is the greatest thing a 30 year-old can get in football,” Mooney said on The Run Home.

http://www.sen.com.au/news/mooney-on-lonergan-christensen-cats

Are you saying this move is coach driven to save his skin? Is this another one of those sneaky Bmac moves where he pulls the wool over the eyes of the club's management, but us smart folk on WOOF are all over it and know what he's really up to?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Good player, but I would shake my head if we offer him a lucrative 3 year contract when he'll start next season at 31. He's contracted and Geelong would demand a second round pick.

This smacks of desperation, but what irritates me more is that our refusal to draft key forwards and key defenders in the last 5-6 years is the sole reason we find ourselves in this position to begin with.

[The Underdog]

At the very least this trade period is an epic troll by the club so far.

[kruder]

Mark Stevens tweeted that we had tried to lure Steven May from GC during the year. Clearly we see it as a position of need to be filled, which it is. Getting a player who can fill it is much more difficult.

I suggested we have a crack at MAY last year. He would have been cheap as chips at that stage.

[G-Mo77]

Good player, but I would shake my head if we offer him a lucrative 3 year contract when he'll start next season at 31. He's contracted and Geelong would demand a second round pick.

This smacks of desperation, but what irritates me more is that our refusal to draft key forwards and key defenders in the last 5-6 years is the sole reason we find ourselves in this position to begin with.

1.5M over 3 years. Why would he turn it down? So if true kiss a 2nd round pick goodbye.

You'll be irritated for a lot longer TBB. That cycle continues if this happens.

[G-Mo77]

Are you saying this move is coach driven to save his skin? Is this another one of those sneaky Bmac moves where he pulls the wool over the eyes of the club's management, but us smart folk on WOOF are all over it and know what he's really up to?

Drop the sarcasm jeemak. No need for it all.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

1.5M over 3 years. Why would he turn it down? So if true kiss a 2nd round pick goodbye.

You'll be irritated for a lot longer TBB. That cycle continues if this happens.

Just saw that article. How could he possibly turn it down?

We've made some stupid decisions in the past, but this just might top all of them if it eventuates.

[jeemak]

Drop the sarcasm jeemak. No need for it all.

Ok, I'll drop the sarcasm, if you answer the question on its merits. Do you think this is coach driven to save his skin?

I've noticed you have been pretty critical of the coach and the MC in general in recent times, so I thought I'd ask.

[bulldogtragic]

Drop the sarcasm jeemak. No need for it all.

Yep. Macca and the club might just be wrong. The club has a track record of bad decisions for decades, simply liking many of the club people doesn't make the decision a good one. I remember myself and many others thinking how clever we were with Rawlings and lesser Koops, Street. Unless Cooney wants out and it's a straight swap which will never happen, we will overpay and thus our future gets a little less bright. All we have right now is 3-8 years time in our future to keep us going. Removing a round 2 draft kid makes it harder to keep faith, and that's not saying ripping up memberships, it's about being told to stick fat to a long term plan, having 3 shit years and the plan changing against the clear needs for top kids.

[G-Mo77]

Ok, I'll drop the sarcasm, if you answer the question on its merits. Do you think this is coach driven to save his skin?

I've noticed you have been pretty critical of the coach and the MC in general in recent times, so I thought I'd ask.

Absolutely. He's gone next year if things don't improve and he's not alone. Bit to short term gain rather than long term gain has saved many jobs.

Got a question next time just ask.

[jeemak]

Yep. Macca and the club might just be wrong. The club has a track record of bad decisions for decades, simply liking many of the club people doesn't make the decision a good one. I remember myself and many others thinking how clever we were with Rawlings and lesser Koops, Street. Unless Cooney wants out and it's a straight swap which will never happen, we will overpay and thus our future gets a little less bright. All we have right now is 3-8 years time in our future to keep us going. Removing a round 2 draft kid makes it harder to keep faith, and that's not saying ripping up memberships, it's about being told to stick fat to a long term plan, having 3 shit years and the plan changing against the clear needs for top kids.

Sorry, but what does that have to do with the post you quoted?

[bulldogtragic]

Ok, I'll drop the sarcasm, if you answer the question on its merits. Do you think this is coach driven to save his skin?

I've noticed you have been pretty critical of the coach and the MC in general in recent times, so I thought I'd ask.

To be fair GMo articulates himself and doesn't start threads and not show up for 3 months. Moreso, memory is GMo was a very, very strong supporter of BMac until recently. Getting to a point where you're more skeptical or critical based on whatever internal measure one uses doesn't make any of us better or worse. I think that BMAC defenders are starting to be more critical is a clear sign that faith is being tested across the board and our membership.

[jeemak]

Absolutely. He's gone next year if things don't improve and he's not alone. Bit to short term gain rather than long term gain has saved many jobs.

Got a question next time just ask.

I did ask. Sure, I put some sarcasm into it to emphasise an issue I had with the post and for that I apologise.

I'm actually staggered you can come to that conclusion. Do you think that after such a thorough review the coach would be given carte blanche to make list management decisions to save his skin without any sort of accountability to the process and vision he's sold to this point?

Or do you think perhaps the process is a little more considered than that, and the decision to recruit an experienced defender could be just as much management driven as it is football department driven to try and get some on field results to help the club generally rather than just make the coach look like he's doing a good job?

If you think it's the former, then I think you're doing a disservice to people like Garlick, Grant and Gordon, let alone the people you are accusing of being selfish and making moves to save their own skins.

[bulldogtragic]

Sorry, but what does that have to do with the post you quoted?

Deep breaths... :) I was supporting the contention that sarcasm isn't necessary. Then My rambling thoughts continued. Nothing personal Jeemak.

[jeemak]

Deep breaths... :) I was supporting the contention that sarcasm isn't necessary. Then My rambling thoughts continued. Nothing personal Jeemak.

No stress at my end BT. I've apologised to Gmo, sometimes we post things we shouldn't.

[bulldogtragic]

No stress at my end BT. I've apologised to Gmo, sometimes we post things we shouldn't.

That happens to me 9 out of 10 posts :)

[G-Mo77]

As I said he's not the only one who is under the pump.

4.30 start in the morning so that'll do me for today. Hopefully lunch time tomorrow when I knock off I read better news.

[Topdog]

If you think it's the former, then I think you're doing a disservice to people like Garlick, Grant and Gordon, let alone the people you are accusing of being selfish and making moves to save their own skins.

Id hope those 3 have nothing at all to do with list management.

[whythelongface]

Absolutely. He's gone next year if things don't improve and he's not alone. Bit to short term gain rather than long term gain has saved many jobs.



This decision could well be driven from the top down. There are many factors that would make a decision such as trading for a Lonergan make sense (from a business perspective) including:

- competitiveness
- memberships
- merchandising
- match day attendance
- marketing

Football is a business and it is (unfortunately) more than just winning premierships - sure that is the end goal of any successful organisation - but first and foremost is running a successful operation. By trading for similar players (especially dual premiership players) the club can increase our short-term competitiveness through a better win/loss ratio, which in turn could lead to potential better match fixture opportunities (which we have been crying out for) and increased revenue.

Thus whilst I can understand the frustrations of 'moving away from our plans of drafting' I feel this is partly a business decision as well as partly a football decision. I can certainly understand why management would be changing our trading/ drafting strategy.

[jeemak]

Id hope those 3 have nothing at all to do with list management.

On a micro level, I'm with you. Though when the club conducts a major review, and from that review one of the clear weaknesses identified is our lack of tall defenders, coupled with two or three younger players who are ear marked to play as tall defenders being unlikely to come through for a few years, then surely they can have some influence over the strategic direction the club is taking and grant leave to resolve the issue via a trade.

[Twodogs]

Remember when we pissed pick 19 away on Peter Street a few years ago? nGeelong will play this beautifully. They will say that Lonergan is a required player while dangling him in front of us. Then they'll make it look like they are doing what's best for everybody by taking pick 28 off us.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I have never ever spoken, or written a single negative word about our current coach. But this lonergan deal is the first crack in the dyke for me. It's just so totally totally what we don't need. Say it ain't so Brendan.

[FrediKanoute]

You simply do NOT trade top 30 picks for 30 Y/O players period!

[jeemak]

I have never ever spoken, or written a single negative word about our current coach. But this lonergan deal is the first crack in the dyke for me. It's just so totally totally what we don't need. Say it ain't so Brendan.

If the coach has been given a mandate or a directive to strengthen our defence, how do you suppose he does it?

[Dancin' Douggy]

If the coach has been given a mandate or a directive to strengthen our defence, how do you suppose he does it?

Well I guess the only thing to do is go after tom lonergan.

[whythelongface]

Remember when we pissed pick 19 away on Peter Street a few years ago? nGeelong will play this beautifully. They will say that Lonergan is a required player while dangling him in front of us. Then they'll make it look like they are doing what's best for everybody by taking pick 28 off us.

Drawing a long bow comparing the recruiting of Street with the potential recruitment of a dual premiership player and quality defender in Lonergan.

[jeemak]

Well I guess the only thing to do is go after tom lonergan.

Be careful you don't get done for sarcasm :)

[1eyedog]

If the coach has been given a mandate or a directive to strengthen our defence, how do you suppose he does it?

I'm at a complete loss as to why we didn't put Talia through the wringer at CHB when we persisted so long with Austin. I guess the MC feel that he is just too immature in too many areas at this stage.

[LostDoggy]

The way I see it, most would be happy if we could get him into the club without giving up one of our second rounders.

He's a bloody quality defender. For me money isn't an issue. The 3 years isn't an issue. It's just hoping we can swing a deal by holding onto our second rounders.

[jeemak]

The way I see it, most would be happy if we could get him into the club without giving up one of our second rounders.

He's a bloody quality defender. For me money isn't an issue. The 3 years isn't an issue. It's just hoping we can swing a deal by holding onto our second rounders.

The crazy thing is, some think we should get a second rounder for Liam Jones, irrespective of it being even money for him and Lonergan to finish their AFL careers in the same year.

[jazzadogs]

I like the idea of Lonergan or similar, but I have significant concerns about the potential of trading a top 30 pick for him. The salary I don't care about, we've clearly got space in our cap and if it's front-loaded it doesn't really affect the future. I hope the club would push for two years, but it would appear not.

If we could get him for a later pick, possibly with a player, I'd be okay with it.

The suggestions of Minson, while hard to stomach, make sense to me. We have Campbell (who I personally feel should be number 1 ruck by end of next year either way), Cordy and Roughead to fill that space if Lonergan comes in. With Minson and no Lonergan, we have Talia and Roberts playing key defence while either limiting Campbell's development or angering Minson by not giving him games.

[wimberga]

The way I see it, most would be happy if we could get him into the club without giving up one of our second rounders.

He's a bloody quality defender. For me money isn't an issue. The 3 years isn't an issue. It's just hoping we can swing a deal by holding onto our second rounders.

Agree with this wholeheartedly. At the end of the day, will he make us better? I absolutely think yes, so it simply comes down to cost. Has to be worth more than Jones IMO.

[1eyedog]

This decision could well be driven from the top down. There are many factors that would make a decision such as trading for a Lonergan make sense (from a business perspective) including:

- competitiveness
- memberships
- merchandising
- match day attendance
- marketing

Football is a business and it is (unfortunately) more than just winning premierships - sure that is the end goal of any successful organisation - but first and foremost is running a successful operation. By trading for similar players (especially dual premiership players) the club can increase our short-term competitiveness through a better win/loss ratio, which in turn could lead to potential better match fixture opportunities (which we have been crying out for) and increased revenue.

Thus whilst I can understand the frustrations of 'moving away from our plans of drafting' I feel this is partly a business decision as well as partly a football decision. I can certainly understand why management would be changing our trading/ drafting strategy.

Yep we're running a football club but we're also trying to run a viable, sustainable business. Added to this I think a young team needs wins and we need to breed a winning culture otherwise we end up a basket case like Melbourne.

[always right]

I think the merit of this move can't be judged until we understand what the thinking is behind it. If it's simply to bolster our backline then it doesn't make a lot of sense although that would depend on what we give up for him. If it is designed to allow Roughead to play forward, then I'm a little less critcal. This of course assumes Roughy would be better up froward than in his current role.

I'm dubious about this one but in the end, it all depends on what we give up for him. Third round I can live with......second round (which is more likely) I'd be upset about. If it was a straight swap for Cooney that would make some sense, particularly if Cooney is keen to go to a club with short term premiership asperations.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I'm at a complete loss as to why we didn't put Talia through the wringer at CHB when we persisted so long with Austin. I guess the MC feel that he is just too immature in too many areas at this stage.

If you watch his game against Essendon in R7 you will see why Talia did not play again. He was beaten in contests consistently and his decision making, and disposal were also poor.

I am not one normally prone to knee jerk reactions, however, he will have to lift enormously over the summer to convince me he has a future with us.

[1eyedog]

If you watch his game against Essendon in R7 you will see why Talia did not play again. He was beaten in contests consistently and his decision making, and disposal were also poor.

I am not one normally prone to knee jerk reactions, however, he will have to lift enormously over the summer to convince me he has a future with us.

Fair enough but did you watch any of the games that Austin played when he came in for Talia? Out for the rest of the season was some punishment for Talia especially when Austin played so bad and had the same sort of issues you note for Talia.

[1eyedog]

If you watch his game against Essendon in R7 you will see why Talia did not play again. He was beaten in contests consistently and his decision making, and disposal were also poor.

I am not one normally prone to knee jerk reactions, however, he will have to lift enormously over the summer to convince me he has a future with us.

Fair enough but did you watch any of the games that Austin played when he came in for Talia? Out for the rest of the season was some punishment for Talia especially when Austin played so bad and had the same sort of issues you note for Talia. Who do you persist with more? I know who I'd choose.

[LostDoggy]

Who else cringed every time the ball went deep into our back line this year? I know I did. Watching Roughie playing hampered and Morro trying to hold it all together was painful. Throw in Talia not being great, Roberts still learning and building his body and Austin trying but being a liability and then I think for the right price, Lonergan would be a very welcome edition to our current backline.

[LostDoggy]

Only thing that bothers me is that the guy would be coming almost purely for more $$$ and I'm not sure that's healthy

[Dancin' Douggy]

Surely there's someone well under 30 we could be throwing the same (or better) offer to?

[Maddog37]

Why not Frost from GWS?

[Mofra]

Why not Frost from GWS?
I'd like this - he's not the player Lonergan is but would be with us for far longerm we'd only have to find two other genuine tall defenders than (and out of Roberts, Talia, Zaine Cordy and whoever we may pick up this year that should cover it).

Merrett would be cheaper at the trade table too wouldn't he?

[Bulldog Revolution]

Fair enough but did you watch any of the games that Austin played when he came in for Talia? Out for the rest of the season was some punishment for Talia especially when Austin played so bad and had the same sort of issues you note for Talia.

Yes, watched every one

I do not view Austin as being the perfect footballer - my take is he had some good moments, and some bad ones, but he was light years better than Talia - thats more a statement about how bad Talia was, than how good Austin was or is.

Maybe they could have given Talia another shot, but you'd need to know what was going on behind the scenes - what he was told to do? was he doing it? was he fit? or carrying an injury etc?

Talia seemed in better form by the VFL grand final, but needs a big pre-season

[1eyedog]

Yes, watched every one

I do not view Austin as being the perfect footballer - my take is he had some good moments, and some bad ones, but he was light years better than Talia - thats more a statement about how bad Talia was, than how good Austin was or is.

Maybe they could have given Talia another shot, but you'd need to know what was going on behind the scenes - what he was told to do? was he doing it? was he fit? or carrying an injury etc?

Talia seemed in better form by the VFL grand final, but needs a big pre-season

Ok. You have a far higher opinion of Austin or a much lower opinion of Talia than I do.,

[bornadog]

I hope talk of this stupid move is off the table now.

[1eyedog]

I hope talk of this stupid move is off the table now.

One positive in all this is Lonergan remains a poorer man.

[bornadog]

One positive in all this is Lonergan remains a poorer man.

To me it was the 3 years and the money. Posters convinced me we could do with him in the backline, but 2 years would be enough and not on those dollars.

[bornadog]

The Age says he is staying at Geelong - HOORAY

[Sedat]

Dodged a bullet there. Not what we need from a list management perspective.

Geez I hope Talia and Roberts come good

[Doc26]

Dodged a bullet there. Not what we need from a list management perspective.

Geez I hope Talia and Roberts come good

I suspect he's saying the same thing right now.

[anfo27]

Dodged a bullet there. Not what we need from a list management perspective.

Geez I hope Talia and Roberts come good

You might have to pray for Talia cause he looks a million miles away from AFL level.

[Bulldog4life]

You might have to pray for Talia cause he looks a million miles away from AFL level.

Thought he played well in VFL Grand Final.

[LostDoggy]

Lonergan wont be the last in the next week to say no to us after watching us implode in the last 24 hours

[bornadog]

Lonergan wont be the last in the next week to say no to us after watching us implode in the last 24 hours

That's fine - lets draft draft draft

[anfo27]

Thought he played well in VFL Grand Final.

Can't afford to have someone like him in the back half. When he is out of position and being so inexperienced thats all the time, all he does is hold and just gives away free kicks all the time. Then when he gets the ball he has no composure, just kicks it 50m up the line.

[Greystache]

That's fine - lets draft draft draft

Because we've been so brilliant at drafting key position players over the last 20 years.

[bornadog]

Because we've been so brilliant at drafting key position players over the last 20 years.

So what is your suggestion then.

[Greystache]

So what is your suggestion then.

Is it that hard to work out? Mindlessly using draft draft draft is a pretty limited approach. We need to be targeting players that fill a need and getting them. Today's efforts from the club have made sure that's not going to be possible. So like every other part of the club we're screwed.

Hawthorn built the basis of back to back premierships at the trade table, so did Sydney, and yet all we hear from our supporters is draft draft draft, like it's the no risk approach.

[Sedat]

Hawthorn built the basis of back to back premierships at the trade table, so did Sydney, and yet all we hear from our supporters is draft draft draft, like it's the no risk approach.
To be fair, as a club we haven't really embraced a full-scale assault on the draft until the last couple of years. We still need an urgent injection of quality onto our list, and (hopefully) 3 picks inside the top 10 gives you a much better chance of securing that sort of talent.

Agree wholeheartedly that astute trading is fundamental to building a premiership quality list - I think we will be in a much better position to do that in 12 months' time.

[G-Mo77]

Is it that hard to work out? Mindlessly using draft draft draft is a pretty limited approach. We need to be targeting players that fill a need and getting them. Today's efforts from the club have made sure that's not going to be possible. So like every other part of the club we're screwed.

Hawthorn built the basis of back to back premierships at the trade table, so did Sydney, and yet all we hear from our supporters is draft draft draft, like it's the no risk approach.

What players would want to come here after what has happened over the past 2 - 3 days. I don't think there is any choice but to load up on picks this season. 12 months on when this is all behind us we should then target outside players.

[bornadog]

What players would want to come here after what has happened over the past 2 - 3 days. I don't think there is any choice but to load up on picks this season. 12 months on when this is all behind us we should then target outside players.

Thank you for answering for me. Under the circumstances we have no choice.

[whythelongface]

What players would want to come here after what has happened over the past 2 - 3 days. I don't think there is any choice but to load up on picks this season. 12 months on when this is all behind us we should then target outside players.

Absolutely. Players will take a look at us and go no thanks. We couldn't even attract a Membrey when we had a coach. We would be lucky to attract a player from local U10 footy club the way we are heading.

We need to focus solely on the draft and somehow nail it. Next year at the trade table may be a different story.

[Greystache]

What players would want to come here after what has happened over the past 2 - 3 days. I don't think there is any choice but to load up on picks this season. 12 months on when this is all behind us we should then target outside players.

We've created the environment that has made us so toxic, today just reinforced it. No young player will come to us knowing they will be at the whim of the senior players. If they can sack coaches, they can certainly marginalise a young recruit. We've painted ourselves into the position where drafting kids with no choice but to come to us is our only option. Let's not celebrate it!

[jeemak]

I was always pretty happy for Lonergan - a very high quality defender - to come to the Dogs and force the likes of Tahlia and Roberts to lift their games and make a case for senior selection, whilst Lonergan solidified our defence with Roughead and Morris over the next two years. His spot would have been for Tahlia and Roberts to claim, as would the spot Morris is holding presently. This wouldn't have made a dent on our salary cap.

Who knows, we might have won a few games in the process, for what I can see is a very small price to pay list wise considering who has occupied such coveted positions in the past.

The funny thing is, in the second week of the trade period we could have found ourselves with a couple of extra first round selections on top of the one we already have, to use on a forward or two to finish off our spine and structure for the short, medium and long term.

But alas, as 'stache has stated in many ways we've blown any chance of achieving a quick route to that structure and a more positive ledger, seemingly for quite some time now. We've set ourselves back because of the very ordinary actions of our captain, and a senior core that wasn't prepared to offer change to the extent the outgoing coach seemed to.

I will say though, that football clubs behave stupidly and in a short sighted manner only to be trumped by player managers and the players themselves. There's a very strong part of me that thinks that if we offer the right deal we'll still be able to attract a player or two, such is the quality of our developing talent.

[G-Mo77]

We've created the environment that has made us so toxic, today just reinforced it. No young player will come to us knowing they will be at the whim of the senior players. If they can sack coaches, they can certainly marginalise a young recruit. We've painted ourselves into the position where drafting kids with no choice but to come to us is our only option. Let's not celebrate it!

I'm certainly not celebrating it Grey. The opposite actually.

[bulldogtragic]

I wonder if he's thinking 4 seasons in this team on rediculous money might be a slight regret?

[F'scary]

I wonder if he's thinking 4 seasons in this team on rediculous money might be a slight regret?

Top thread revival. Lonergan would be spewing at the moment because at his age, with the way they are playing, he could be out at the end of the year as they look to do a serious rebuild.

At the moment, I am musing about Talia being held back so much last year and being rated so lowly that Macca tried to get a ready made in Lonergan as the KPB solution. Did it do Talia good? Or did we waste senior experience opportunities?

[stefoid]

If Lonergan was playing fullback, Roughie would be playing forward/ruck instead of Ayce, IMO.

[bulldogtragic]

If Lonergan was playing fullback, Roughie would be playing forward/ruck instead of Ayce, IMO.

That would be an improvement to yesterday's side. Add Libba, Wally and Morris; room for improvement.

[stefoid]

My fantasy story is we pick up Carlisle at the end of this year, and Lonergan would have prevented that, so all good!

[craigsahibee]

Might have to force his way in via Footscray ;)

[bornadog]

Glad we didn't take Lonergan. Paying him way over the odds would have been a huge mistake.

[GVGjr]

Glad we didn't take Lonergan. Paying him way over the odds would have been a huge mistake.
He would have been a great addition and helped our side.
After a great win Im surprised this has been bumped

[G-Mo77]

He would have been a great addition and helped our side.
After a great win Im surprised this has been bumped

And Talia would have been behind him who has been really solid so far. Long term he wouldn't have been much help.

[bulldogtragic]

He would have been a great addition and helped our side.
After a great win Im surprised this has been bumped

That's the point G for (a) yes another good defender is the go (with some rucks). (b) yes we are winning hence the bump. He was offered big years and big money and we are playing exciting footy with an exciting young list. Geelong on the other hand are going down for a few years. With the power of hindsight perhaps he might rue saying no to us as our last 5 games have been great when we've had 22 players fit. That's all i'm saying.

[Twodogs]

I wonder if we'd signed Lonergan and then the Boyd deal loomed if we would have had the means or flexibility to pursue Boyd?

[bulldogtragic]

I wonder if we'd signed Lonergan and then the Boyd deal loomed if we would have had the means or flexibility to pursue Boyd?

We could afford Boyd, paying Griffs salary this year would've been a sticking point.

[Twodogs]

We could afford Boyd, paying Griffs salary this year would've been a sticking point.

Apparently the facility to pay Griff's wage was the idea that turned GWS around though. So if we couldn't have offered that we may not have got our man.

[1eyedog]

Lonergan would have made our back line stand up for 2 years. In hindsight we don't need him now, who cares what he's thinking. Glad he baulked otherwise Talia may very well be elsewhere at the end of this year.

[Sedat]

I'm personally very happy that Lonergan on 500k a season for 4 years from 31-34 is not at our club. I'm also glad Dawes is not at our club and Hrovat is instead. And I'm very glad that Talia is at our club instead of Matthew Bate.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm personally very happy that Lonergan on 500k a season for 4 years from 31-34 is not at our club. I'm also glad Dawes is not at our club and Hrovat is instead. And I'm very glad that Talia is at our club instead of Matthew Bate.

I'm happy Sherman and Vezpremi aren't at the club. :)

[bornadog]

i'm personally very happy that lonergan on 500k a season for 4 years from 31-34 is not at our club. I'm also glad dawes is not at our club and hrovat is instead. And i'm very glad that talia is at our club instead of matthew bate.

yes!!

[bulldogtragic]

yes!!

Gumbleton?

[1eyedog]

I'm personally very happy that Lonergan on 500k a season for 4 years from 31-34 is not at our club. I'm also glad Dawes is not at our club and Hrovat is instead. And I'm very glad that Talia is at our club instead of Matthew Bate.

Agreed, or Gumbleton :eek:

Too slow!

[G-Mo77]

I'm happy Sherman and Vezpremi aren't at the club. :)

To bad Sherman came at all. What a waste!

[Bulldog Joe]

To bad Sherman came at all. What a waste!

same applies to Vezspremi. One of the worst trades

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I'm happy Sherman and Vezpremi aren't at the club. :)

It simply proves that you are better off drafting your own good young talent such as Stringer, Macrae, Bonti, Talia,Jong, JJ, Hrovat, etc, with Tom Boyd being a bonus as part of this quality talented group of players.

[Mantis]

It simply proves that you are better off drafting your own good young talent such as Stringer, Macrae, Bonti, Talia,Jong, JJ, Hrovat, etc, with Tom Boyd being a bonus as part of this quality talented group of players.

Does it?

Clubs such as Hawthorn & Sydney have traded successfully in the past 5-10 years which has led them to having sustained success.

[stefoid]

trading or drafting good players is good.

trading or drafting bad players is bad

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Does it?

Clubs such as Hawthorn & Sydney have traded successfully in the past 5-10 years which has led them to having sustained success.

Wanting to go to successful clubs like Hawthorn and Sydney has been the major reason for the majority of these trades plus the added AFL financial support to Sydney which has been well documented. Our equivalent trades in recent years have been Aker and Barry Hall, who at their stages of their careers, were probably past their best. Given our current financial state, the approach being taken on recruiting, would be the most logical one.

[Remi Moses]

I'm personally very happy that Lonergan on 500k a season for 4 years from 31-34 is not at our club. I'm also glad Dawes is not at our club and Hrovat is instead. And I'm very glad that Talia is at our club instead of Matthew Bate.

Add Scott Gumbleton and Levi Casboult ( at 500large)
The Talia improvement is just absolutely massive, and I particular it probably means we don't have to overpay in a trade or F/A

[LostDoggy]

same applies to Vezspremi. One of the worst trades
Vesper i I think was unlucky that Bmac was at the club, if maybe he was here now under beveridge he would be half a chance. I can tell from only 4 game that Bmac wasn't good at getting the best out of people. There wouldn't be one player who hasn't improved under beveridge the same cannot be said about Bmac

[Happy Days]

same applies to Vezspremi. One of the worst trades

Vezspremi was a pretty bad trade but he (at least at the time) didn't cost too much; we gave up a first round pick (!!!) for Sherman.

Vez also never racially vilified anyone or did any "modelling". Getting him in was nothing on the Sherm.

[comrade]

Vesper i I think was unlucky that Bmac was at the club, if maybe he was here now under beveridge he would be half a chance. I can tell from only 4 game that Bmac wasn't good at getting the best out of people. There wouldn't be one player who hasn't improved under beveridge the same cannot be said about Bmac

Macca seemed to have a strong bias for 'good students'. If the player wasn't a quick learner, or fit into his stereotype of a 'crack in' type, I think he struggled to engage. This follows on from his philosophy of identifying player weakness and trying to change/improve, vs Bevo who seems to encourage the player's strengths more.

[Bulldog Joe]

Vezspremi was a pretty bad trade but he (at least at the time) didn't cost too much; we gave up a first round pick (!!!) for Sherman.

Vez also never racially vilified anyone or did any "modelling". Getting him in was nothing on the Sherm.

Sorry, but Vez cost plenty. He was a swap for Everitt, who was a first round pick.
Vez was never going to make it.

[soupman]

Sorry, but Vez cost plenty. He was a swap for Everitt, who was a first round pick.
Vez was never going to make it.

Neither was Everitt at that stage of his career.

He was a player that attracted little interest and whose career had stagnated completely. May well have been delisted if we kept him another year or so. Unfortunately for us we traded him at his lowest value throughout his career.

[Bulldog Joe]

Neither was Everitt at that stage of his career.

He was a player that attracted little interest and whose career had stagnated completely. May well have been delisted if we kept him another year or so. Unfortunately for us we traded him at his lowest value throughout his career.

Everitt had a little more going for him. He does have some height and agility, where Vez was short and fat with no tank.

[azabob]

Sorry, but Vez cost plenty. He was a swap for Everitt, who was a first round pick.
Vez was never going to make it.

Vez was also a first round pick.

[Bulldog Joe]

Vez was also a first round pick.

We can get caught up in this, but perhaps we should leave it.

I did strongly suggest before the trade that Vez would not make it and even emailed Eade on the subject, referring to his insipid effort in the 2008 PF for Sydney against us.

[LostDoggy]

We can get caught up in this, but perhaps we should leave it.

I did strongly suggest before the trade that Vez would not make it and even emailed Eade on the subject, referring to his insipid effort in the 2008 PF for Sydney against us.

Well, it's little wonder then that he's no longer coaching the Doggies. :P :D

[jeemak]

Given our key back stocks consist of Hamling, Roberts, maybe Roughead, Adams and a young Collins does anyone now think we'd have been well served in dishing out a three year contract at the end of 2014 for Lonergan?

Much to the likely chagrin of of BT (in brackets, smilie face), I believe his potential recruitment on a three year deal would have been a master stroke from Bmac if he was capable of overseeing some of the level of improvement we've seen these past 18 months, and in my view not recruiting him has been an opportunity lost, albeit ultimately due to circumstances out of our control.

Question - after Bmac left did we even bother with the trade or was it shelved upon the players request? If the latter, should we regret it?

[1eyedog]

Great player he would have made a difference. Aside from on field coaching our young backs I've wondered whether Tex would have got off the leash if Lonergan was on him. Ah sliding doors...

[jeemak]

Great player he would have made a difference. Aside from on field coaching our young backs I've wondered whether Tex would have got off the leash if Lonergan was on him. Ah sliding doors...

Truth is, Tex probably would have gotten the ball up the ground he got against anyone - such was our ability to let the ball sling out of our backline that night. Suppose organisation and positioning may have been different with an older head in defence, hard to say. With him we may not have even had to worry about Tex first week of the finals.

[LostDoggy]

I guess the counter argument is that if we got Lonergan, 32 this year, we probably wouldn't have got Hamling, 23 this year, who was a lot cheaper and arguably offers more in terms of overall service over a number of years.

[jeemak]

Hamling was bargain basement in terms of acquisition, but I'd still take Lonergan at 500 large a year given what I know now.

[azabob]

I think once BMac was moved on Lonergan wasn't keen on the idea.

[jeemak]

No doubt, though I wonder if Jmac was interested in the deal in the first place and whether anything at all was done to still lure him across.

[Bulldog Joe]

I don't really think we have missed on much. Its arguable that we may have been better in 2015, but it may have changed a whole lot of the dynamic.

We can't exist on what might have been, but look forward to what we can create.

[1eyedog]

Truth is, Tex probably would have gotten the ball up the ground he got against anyone - such was our ability to let the ball sling out of our backline that night. Suppose organisation and positioning may have been different with an older head in defence, hard to say. With him we may not have even had to worry about Tex first week of the finals.

Yeah true but I would have preferred this than him getting it wherever he wanted all night, esp within 50. Moving on...

[Mantis]

Would have our play for Tom Boyd been possible if Lonergan was acquired?

I'm happy with the play we made becasuse realistically our premiership window won't open until Lonergan would've retired and the next couple of years allows us to develop the young talls we have on our list.

But in 2 years time if we still have a gap to fill I would hope we would be hunting in the open market.. Much like the Hawks have done in acquiring Lake & Frawley.

[Sedat]

Yep, trading for Lonergan would have been a disaster for our list management over the next few years - there would be no Boyd, no Hamling, Griffen would probably still be on the list and (rightly commanding top dollar), so more than likely one of our young guns might have slipped through the cracks because we didn't have the cap space to satisfy him. And as Mantis has rightly pointed out, Lonergan would not be around (or would be below his best) when our next window approaches.

For the above reasons I'm absolutely stoked we didn't get him. It was only dumb luck we didn't, not to mention Bate, Dawes and others who would have added very little to our team but choked our salary cap.

[Greystache]

Would have our play for Tom Boyd been possible if Lonergan was acquired.

Yes. We had to pay a large portion of Gryphin's salary in 2015 just to make the minimum salary cap while keeping space open to bank a big chunk of Boyd in 2016. We could've spent that money paying a big front loaded chunk of Lonergan in 2015 and told GWS to get rooted. They'd have taken Griphin and pick 6 without the cash, they'd already over-committed themselves.

[Greystache]

I like the Lonergan deal at the time, and in hindsight still like it. It was never going to happen once changes were made but the deal was a good one.

[GVGjr]

I like the Lonergan deal at the time, and in hindsight still like it. It was never going to happen once changes were made but the deal was a good one.

Agreed, he would have been a good fit for us but it just wasn't to be.

[jeemak]

I really struggle to see how the recruitment of Lonergan would have been connected with our previous captain actually staying at the club, or with us not being able to secure Tom Boyd subsequent to that. The chain of events particular to our previous captain's departure started with him announcing his wish to leave and as far as I can tell, things snowballed from that with plenty of salary cap space to as - 'stache states - front load Londergan's deal after it was announced he was interested a day before the departure.

Yes, Joel Hamling wasn't required at his current club after that point, though was it actually due to Lonergan staying at the Cats? Surely if some of don't believe we'd need Lonergan in light of Hamling being a viable long term prospect, wouldn't the Cats see it the same way?

I've already stated it, though I think if we had Lonergan on our list for this year and next on $500K per season we could afford it, and we'd also benefit from a playing perspective to the point where his value would definitely help us moving from 5-8 to 1-4 on the ladder.