Drawn games and should we play extra time after a draw?

[The Coon Dog]

I was just reading Dry Rot's thread on the Essendon drawn game in 2002.

It got me thinking about just how hollow the feeling can be after a draw. It's a nothingness feeling, particularly as no theme song is blasted out over the loudspeakers.

Simply put, in the event of a draw, should we play an addition 5 minutes each way?

A few years back the NRL, adopted the 'Golden Point' rule, where the first team to score wins. In the event no team scores within the extra 5 minutes each way, the draw prevails. I'm not too sure I like that on 2 counts. 1) A side running with a howling gale in the first period of additional time gains an advantage & 2) Why allow the draw to stand, if the nature & intent of additional time is to do away with them.

A draw can be as good as a win, particularly if you have a poor percentage, whilst if you have a decent percentage, it's effectively as good as a loss.

As much as I hate the hollowness after a draw, I'm a bit of a traditionalist & would prefer, on balance, to see the status quo prevail.

What do others think?

Given it's the off season & we need to read about footy stuff, some of your favourite draw memories please.

[GVGjr]

I'll stick to tradition for the home and away season but I can see the merit in leaving with a result one way or the other. I like draws, especially late in the season, because they get everyone looking at the ladder trying to work out if it has opened to door for someone else.

Some people say they feel empty after a draw but I'm not one of them.

[The Underdog]

I'm a traditionalist too. I think it's such a rare occurrence in our game, unlike rugby where it's more common. I think there were 3 draws this year and that's a high number compared to most seasons, which over 176 games and 16 teams means you don't get that hollow feeling very often. Leave it alone. I understand the need to play extra time in the finals but leave the regular season as is.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Draws are so rare and they add another little bit of interest in working out the final ladder.

My memory's gone blank, help me Twodogs. Who was the draw with in 76 that kept Melbourne (or was it Carlton?) out of the finals

[soupman]

I don't like the idea of extra time for the following reason.

Imagine if it had been a close game all day, goal for goal, and it ended in a draw. In extra time the opposition managed to outscore you, for whatever reason (better, lucky free kick, not as tired etc). How robbed would you feel? To have earnt half the points, and come away with nothing.

[LostDoggy]

No leave it as it is- the system that came into being when North Melbourne and Hawthorn drew in 1994 works perfectly.

Extra time for finals is the right way, should have been there from the beginning saving the problems presented by draws in 1962, 1972 and 1990, but it is unnecessary for the home and away season. A draw in Round 22 at Princes Park got us into the finals in 1976- what if extra time was played that day and Carlton scored more than we did- we would have missed out and Melbourne made the finals.

Two points is better than none- yes it can be an empty feeling and in most of Footscray's draws, save the above mentioned Carlton 1976 and the Steve McPherson 1987 North Melbourne game, draws have been sickening. But still 2 points though- the opposition didn't beat us- even if it felt that way.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I fabour leaving it as is, I like the drama of a draw

I remember drawing with Hawthorn at the Whitten Oval when I was a kid and every fan in the Doug Hawkins wing jumped at the same time when the siren went, there were guys falling about all over the place

[The Coon Dog]

I fabour leaving it as is, I like the drama of a draw

I remember drawing with Hawthorn at the Whitten Oval when I was a kid and every fan in the Doug Hawkins wing jumped at the same time when the siren went, there were guys falling about all over the place

Was that the game Darren Pritchard ran into an open goal late on & decided to dribble the ball through along the ground & missed?

[Go_Dogs]

I too don't mind the draw scenario. Sometimes it is just a fitting result, and others you can feel a bit robbed.

I also found the overtime period during the finals series quite exciting, and a good concept.

But agree that a draw is good for regular season use.

[Drunken Bum]

Ok, who is going to own up to being the one who voted for extra time? and your reasoning would be appreciated too please. You are not gonna get a bagging, whilst i disagree with you and would do anything to avoid having extra time in H&A games, i'm interested in your reasons

[westdog54]

Golden point is one of the more contrived rules I've seen attached to a football code. Completely destroys a game of rugby league IMO. If it was Golden try then I'd say fair enough, but it turns the game into 'push the ball forward, then shoot for a field goal. I think it stinks.

I don't have a problem with draws, with the exception of finals, where there must be a winner. during the season there's nothing wrong with a draw.

[LostDoggy]

I think draws are a good thing, makes it more interesting at the end of the season...except when we should have won it and have had to settle for a draw of course.

I say keep over time to the finals, seeing it for the first time in the Collingwood v West Coast game was exciting, but it would be detrimental to the teams if they had to do it in the H&A season.

[wimberga]

I'm playing devils advocate and saying Extra Time.

Its not that i feel particularly strong about it but i believe why settle for a draw when there could still be a possibility to win. I dont think that a Golden Goal rule or something similar would fit AFL. Maybe something as abstract as penalty shots from directly in front on 45 metres. Maybe 2x 5 minute half's. Maybe 2 x 5 minute half's with a changed form of scoring Ie; rushed behinds become goals, points become nothing but kickouts and goals scored gets 10 points. Maybe it doesnt need to be that radical.

Just trying to stir some discussion, as so far it looks a pretty one sided affair.

[Mingo]

I'm playing devils advocate and saying Extra Time.

Its not that i feel particularly strong about it but i believe why settle for a draw when there could still be a possibility to win. I dont think that a Golden Goal rule or something similar would fit AFL. Maybe something as abstract as penalty shots from directly in front on 45 metres. Maybe 2x 5 minute half's. Maybe 2 x 5 minute half's with a changed form of scoring Ie; rushed behinds become goals, points become nothing but kickouts and goals scored gets 10 points. Maybe it doesnt need to be that radical.

Just trying to stir some discussion, as so far it looks a pretty one sided affair.Why would we change the rules so a skill that isn't used during the course of a normal match decides the match? We don't have "penaltys" during regular play like soccer does. It's almost like saying "Ok so you're even in terms of Aussie Rules Football today... but lets decide the match on a game of poker!" It doesn't make sense to me.

Keep it as it is. I can understand why games like soccer go into overtime... because then every second game would have no result. Aussie Rules is unique, we don't need overtime to decide matches because draws are extremely rare as it is.

[wimberga]

Why would we change the rules so a skill that isn't used during the course of a normal match decides the match? We don't have "penalty's" during regular play like soccer does. It's almost like saying "Ok so you're even in terms of Aussie Rules Football today... but lets decide the match on a game of poker!" It doesn't make sense to me.

Keep it as it is. I can understand why games like soccer go into overtime... because then every second game would have no result. Aussie Rules is unique, we don't need overtime to decide matches because draws are extremely rare as it is.

In soccer, League games are recorded as draws, and it is only finals or knock-out games like in tournaments that have extra time.

A skill that isn't used during the course of a normal match? People don't kick goals from 45 meters out? It could be played similar to soccer extra time. 2x 5 minute half's, and then if there is still a deadlock, VERY unlikely, then there could be set shots.

It just seems like draws are a nothing result for both times, so why settle for one?

[Palace03]

A draw is a draw, extra-time should only be used in finals. It is to big of an advantage to the side you play the next week, as an extra 10 minutes of footy when already heavily fatigued will have a great impact on recovery and preperation for the next match. There is also a greater chance of injuries.

If your not good enough to win the game in 120 minutes, then you don't deserve the 4 points.

[Mingo]

A skill that isn't used during the course of a normal match? People don't kick goals from 45 meters out? It could be played similar to soccer extra time. 2x 5 minute half's, and then if there is still a deadlock, VERY unlikely, then there could be set shots.

It just seems like draws are a nothing result for both times, so why settle for one?Yes but we don't have penalty shots from pre-decided positions on the ground. And what is required to win a game hinges on alot more than kicking a goal. What if a side (like for example, West Coast in the 90's) relies on it's defence and keeping the other team to a low score, but may not have accurate shots for goal in the foward line like another team does. How would it be fair to say to them "Ok! It's time for some shots on goal to decide the match!" It's a total cop out.

If we're going to have something to decide a match after a draw... it should be extra time and only extra time. If it's still a draw after extra time, play some more. But even that I don't agree with.

Don't even get me started on the "Golden Goal" option.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Yes but we don't have penalty shots from pre-decided positions on the ground. And what is required to win a game hinges on alot more than kicking a goal. What if a side (like for example, West Coast in the 90's) relies on it's defence and keeping the other team to a low score, but may not have accurate shots for goal in the foward line like another team does. How would it be fair to say to them "Ok! It's time for some shots on goal to decide the match!" It's a total cop out.

If we're going to have something to decide a match after a draw... it should be extra time and only extra time. If it's still a draw after extra time, play some more. But even that I don't agree with.

Don't even get me started on the "Golden Goal" option.

Soccer teams can have defensive game plans and poor penalty takers as well. How is this relevant?

[Mingo]

Soccer teams can have defensive game plans and poor penalty takers as well. How is this relevant?Well, I don't care about soccer ;) I quite frankly think it's a mess of a sport... and I think penalty shoot outs are ridiculous in their game too. That said, I understand why extra time is needed for soccer. It just does not make sense for Aussie Rules.

[wimberga]

Well, I don't care about soccer ;) I quite frankly think it's a mess of a sport... and I think penalty shoot outs are ridiculous in their game too. That said, I understand why extra time is needed for soccer. It just does not make sense for Aussie Rules.

Why are they needed in soccer? Why doesnt it make sense for Aussie Rules? Enlighten me:)

[Sockeye Salmon]

Why are they needed in soccer? Why doesnt it make sense for Aussie Rules? Enlighten me:)

Cos half their games end up as draws?

[westdog54]

Cos half their games end up as draws?

That being said, extra time is only played in finals in any case, and before FIFA introduced penalty shoot-outs, deadlocks after extra time were decided by the toss of a coin.

I don't think I'd like to lose a world cup final on a coin toss, can't speak for anyone else though.

[wimberga]

I dont understand how people keep saying in soccer that games end as draws, thats why they have extra time? By pure definition isnt that wrong? :)

[Mingo]

Cos half their games end up as draws?Exactly. And I did explain my reasoning for that earlier in the thread:

I can understand why games like soccer go into overtime... because then every second game would have no result.

[The Coon Dog]

Here are the games we have drawn since 1970.

Which can you recall & why?

R8, 1973 - WB 8.8.56 v North Melb 8.8.56 - AS

R8, 1974 - WB 9.12.66 v Carlton 9.12.66 - PP

R22, 1976 - WB 15.17.107 v Carlton 15.17.107 - PP

R5, 1977 - WB 17.14.116 v St.Kilda 17.14.116 - WO

R4, 1979 - WB 20.8.128 v Essendon 19.14.128 - WO

R20, 1987 - WB 18.17.125 v North Melb 18.17.125 - MCG

R16, 1989 - WB 6.10.46 v Carlton 6.10.46 - WO

R12, 1991 - WB 4.11.35 v Sydney 5.5.35 - WO

R12, 1995 - WB 10.11.71 v Collingwood 10.11.71 - WAV

R4, 1996 - WB 8.9.57 v Hawthorn 8.9.57 - WO

R11, 1999 - WB 10.16.76 v Hawthorn 11.10.76 - OO

R14, 2002 - WB 18.10.118 v Essendon 17.16.118 - TD

R11, 2003 - WB 19.10.124 v West Coast 19.10.124 - SU

R18, 2007 - WB 12.13.85 v St.Kilda 12.12.85 - TD

R5, 2008 - WB 19.18.130 v Richmond 20.10.130 - TD

[ledge]

1977 we were 49 to 0 at quarter time

[Sockeye Salmon]

R22, 1976 - WB 15.17.107 v Carlton 15.17.107 - PP

We were a game in front of Melbourne with a worse %, just hanging on to 5th spot (final 5 in those days). Carlton were top and Melbourne were playing Collingwood who were stone motherless last. The draw gets us into the finals where we narrowly lost to Geelong. Carlton go out in straight sets.

R12, 1995 - WB 10.11.71 v Collingwood 10.11.71 - WAV

This was the one where the goal umpires ballsed it up. Brereton was given a goal that missed by miles and at the end Osborne was given a point that was oob. Andy Nicol touches up Sav Rocca and we think we've found a big defender. Later that year Nicol gets knocked off his puchbike while training and his career is ruined.

R4, 1996 - WB 8.9.57 v Hawthorn 8.9.57 - WO

Crofty kicks 5 from CHF but the story is Darrin Pritchard's miss from the goalsquare.

R11, 1999 - WB 10.16.76 v Hawthorn 11.10.76 - OO

Krusher saves a point in the dying seconds knocking the ball back into play. I'm going out that night and promise Sweetness that I would leave the game early. I didn't. Leads to the "you-book-anything-that-clashes-with-a-Dogs-game-and-I-won't-turn-up" rule.

R14, 2002 - WB 18.10.118 v Essendon 17.16.118 - TD

Lloyd misses from 15m out.

R11, 2003 - WB 19.10.124 v West Coast 19.10.124 - SU

We blow it Richmond style. 13 points up with 90 seconds left. We got Cooney out of it but.

R18, 2007 - WB 12.13.85 v St.Kilda 12.12.85 - TD

Grant misses Eagleton from 25m away with 60 sec left. Gram's torpy gets marked by Reiwoldt and Darce touches it on the line.

[westdog54]

R12, 1991 - WB 4.11.35 v Sydney 5.5.35 - WO

Correct me if my memory is amiss here.

In atrocious conditions at the Western Oval (that sentence just flows so beautifully doesn't it?) Barry Standfield has an all or nothing shot at goal with very little time remaining that goes behind the stick to the left.

[LostDoggy]

R4, 1996 - WB 8.9.57 v Hawthorn 8.9.57 - WO

Last game I ever went to at the Whitten Oval.

[LostDoggy]

R14, 2002 - WB 18.10.118 v Essendon 17.16.118 - TD

Ah the amount of crap i gave to my mate about lloyd :)

[bornadog]

R20, 1987 - WB 18.17.125 v North Melb 18.17.125 - MCG

I thought we had won the game when Steve McPherson goals on the siren and I was jumping up and down looking like Brownie celebrating, boy was I embarrssed

[LostDoggy]

R12, 1991 - WB 4.11.35 v Sydney 5.5.35 - WO

Correct me if my memory is amiss here.

In atrocious conditions at the Western Oval (that sentence just flows so beautifully doesn't it?) Barry Standfield has an all or nothing shot at goal with very little time remaining that goes behind the stick to the left.

Watts not Standfield, might have been a goal though.
Right about the conditons, I recall Hawkins missing a set shot sitter.

I almost got in a brawl that day.

[LostDoggy]

R14, 2002 - WB 18.10.118 v Essendon 17.16.118 - TD

Lloyd misses from 15m out.

You make it sound like it was easy. I'd say 30m on the boundary, on the wrong side for a left foot and didn't miss by much.

[LostDoggy]

I only remember our last four, was at all except the West Coast one...Johnno's 200th if I remember correctly.

[wimberga]

A hot topic right now so lets hear from you Woofers.

Should the draw stay? if it goes, how should hte game be settled?

I personally am going to sit on the fence a little bit. Im happy for it to stay as it is, it doesnt happen very often, is something different in the game and the split points is fair. Alternatively though, being at the game against Richmond, it would have been Edge of my seat entertainment had they played 2 more 5 minute halfs or whatever.

your thoughts?

[The Coon Dog]

Let's ban draws says Akermanis (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,23584182-19742,00.html)

PROFESSIONAL sport is about winning and losing.

Like it or not, that's how it is. One person, or one team, is the winner; another person or team, the loser.

Not two losers, as is usually the case with a draw. And in professional sport, no one wants to be a half-winner, do they?

I've played in three draws that I can remember, and the feeling each time was just nothing. A lot of effort with half of nothing on the end of it.

That was the case at the weekend against Richmond at Telstra Dome, where we felt we probably should have had the game well and truly secured before the Tigers got 19 points up late in the contest.

In top-level sport, there has to be a winner and a loser, which makes me passionate when I say we have to change the AFL system when scores are tied at full-time.

We have three different rules for drawn games. The first one is as you saw at the weekend: both team receive two premiership points. The next drawn rule applies in finals when there is five minutes extra time each way until a winner is decided, such as last year with West Coast and Collingwood, and in 1994 at Waverley Park when North Melbourne beat Hawthorn.

The final draw rule is when a Grand Final is played and a draw happens, we come back next week for another go.

Are you serious? Three rules for the same result.

To me, the best solution is to play extra time - at least three minutes extra each-way, maybe five minutes.

The NRL got tired of tied matches and introduced a golden-point system and is very happy with the outcome.

Obviously, nothing can be done this season. We need to stick with what we've got for now.

But, at the end of the year, all clubs and players should be asked their views on drawn games.

I know I won't be alone in suggesting extra time. Others will no doubt propose a goalkicking shootout. Some will probably say keep it as it is.

I don't like the shootout concept much. It would generate great interest, watching designated players having shots at goal at various angles and distances. But deciding games of football that way is not what football is about.

Our game has always been about team. A shootout makes it about an individual.

I hear some commentators saying it doesn't matter that we have a few draws in a season; that with 176 matches it doesn't really matter.

What does matter, to me, is a need for uniformity on dealing with ties.

We need to make it consistent, no matter what the game - regular season, finals or Grand Final.

Let's make up our minds, once and for all.

The other big issue out of the weekend was the umpire's bounce, particularly the one late in the North Melbourne-Collingwood game.

Sometimes a bad bounce can cost you possession and, on occasions, goals.

An umpire's bounce can always go either way. It is open to chance.

Should it be? I say no way.

Restarting play falls within the realms of control-ability.

In other words, the game's lawmakers can take out the chance of a dodgy bounce by introducing a rule requiring the ball to be thrown up on all occasions.

Our umpires are the most skilled referees in the world.

Bouncing the football is a great art, but if it is being done incorrectly, it has to be brought back for take two.

As a traditionalist, and in an ideal world, I would like the bounce to stay; it is a great part of our great game.

But there is another part of me that is so focused on the percentages. Like life, you should always play the percentages.

And when the percentages can be controlled, as they can be in a throw-up, then maybe that is the way to go.

[Dry Rot]

3 draw threads merged.

[Sockeye Salmon]

There's so many people writing and commentating on footy these days and they're all trying to come up with something 'fresh' to talk about.

What they're really doing is overanalysing everything about the game and coming up with new ways to make the game sterile.

The things that are unique about our game are what makes it great.

Keep the draws, keep the bounce, stop messing with the rules (unless you want to change them back).

[LostDoggy]

I voted yes to extra tinme. To have a uniform result across all draws 3 different rules for an end result is silly. extra time for final, 2 points for regular season and come back next week for a Grand Final. one uniform rule for all is best result.

[Topdog]

Keep the draw, it is pointless to get rid of it.

[bornadog]

Keep the draw, it is pointless to get rid of it.

I agree, but why should the finals be any different except GF is a replay?

[hujsh]

The game is a 4 quarter test. If they are equal, then so be it

[LostDoggy]

R4, 1996 - WB 8.9.57 v Hawthorn 8.9.57 - WO

First game I took my now wife to see. She couldn't understand why a draw wasn't ok - you know, we hadn't lost. And in my frustration and generally grumpiness at having let this game slip from our grasp (but also being lucky in the end that Hawthorn didn't win), she told me it was not right for a grown man to sulk about a draw and "it not allowing either team of supporters to hang their scarf out the window of the car on the journey home". She reminded me of this as we went home after last Sunday's game, with no scarf out the window again, but this time it was my kids that were most disappointed.

[bornadog]

Brad Johnson has played in a record number of drawn games (7). With this weeks drawn game, there are calls again for extra time. I voted no in this poll taken a year ago. I can't see any issue in having a draw.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I'm sick of the media trying to turn AFL into another version of every other game on the planet.

It's things like this that make us unique (the bounce is another example). Take away our nuances and we become plain vanilla and blend ito the background like every other sport.

[hujsh]

If after 4 quarters of AFL both teams are equal there is no winner. Once they play a fifth quarter they aren't playing an official AFL game IMO.

Also is a huge disadvantage to both teams.

It's not like we have that many draws anyway

[AndrewP6]

Ah, looks like I'm amongst the minority...again ;) As the great man - Aker- said, professional sport is about winning and losing. I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate the draw! Two hours of blood, sweat and tears - you need a result. You start level, at the finish there should be a winner, and a loser. Play extra time. Hell, there's even a TV show called the Fifth Quarter! And, as quite a few have said, it doesn't happen often, so it wouldn't ruin it too much for the footy traditionalists.

[westdog54]

Ah, looks like I'm amongst the minority...again ;) As the great man - Aker- said, professional sport is about winning and losing. I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate the draw! Two hours of blood, sweat and tears - you need a result. You start level, at the finish there should be a winner, and a loser. Play extra time. Hell, there's even a TV show called the Fifth Quarter! And, as quite a few have said, it doesn't happen often, so it wouldn't ruin it too much for the footy traditionalists.

You need a result?

Bollocks. If two hours isn't enough to separate the two teams what the hell is the point of 5 more minutes each way? And if scores are still level then what? Another 5 minutes each way? Please.

Lets keep the needing of results to finals, where having a winner is imperative.

[AndrewP6]

You need a result?

Bollocks. If two hours isn't enough to separate the two teams what the hell is the point of 5 more minutes each way? And if scores are still level then what? Another 5 minutes each way? Please.

Lets keep the needing of results to finals, where having a winner is imperative.

The point of extra time is to determine a winner. That's what I want to see. I take it you don't like any sort of tie-breaking method in any sport? It may well be "bollocks", but it's just my opinion. And, yes, I would propose you play till you get a result. No, it's not the Gospel, nor is it the view that everyone must share - the poll clearly shows that's not happening. It's just my opinion. I just don't like seeing no result in a sporting contest. You're free to hold a different view...just don't call my views "bollocks". Thanks.

[aker39]

I just don't like seeing no result in a sporting contest.
.


But there is a result.

You can either win, lose or draw.

[Stefcep]

Cos half their games end up as draws?

i can understand some people not liking the low-scoring facet of the game. But a draw can be every bit as thrilling, even a 0-0 draw. Depends on what sort of match it is. In footy what if a side come from 6 goals to get a draw? Is that a boring match? Or if the two sides are goal for goal all day and end up with draw.

For mine, let draws stand in home and away, but do a next goal wins in the finals.

[AndrewP6]

But there is a result.

You can either win, lose or draw.

:) Technically, yes... but to me, it's a nothing result. Just my opinion, I want to see which team is better on the day. The first game of footy I went to in years, was our draw with St Kilda a couple of years ago (2007?) and at the final siren, I was screaming for extra time. Such a hollow feeling. And as a player, I'd want to see who was best (win or lose! :) )

[LostDoggy]

I don't like the idea of extra time for the following reason.

Imagine if it had been a close game all day, goal for goal, and it ended in a draw. In extra time the opposition managed to outscore you, for whatever reason (better, lucky free kick, not as tired etc). How robbed would you feel? To have earnt half the points, and come away with nothing.

So agree with this comment - I think it should be left the way it is. I hate when soccer matches go to extra time, then still no result, then penalty shoot out. To have been so even all game, and then a result to come down to this - no way :(

[LostDoggy]

:) Technically, yes... but to me, it's a nothing result. Just my opinion, I want to see which team is better on the day. The first game of footy I went to in years, was our draw with St Kilda a couple of years ago (2007?) and at the final siren, I was screaming for extra time. Such a hollow feeling. And as a player, I'd want to see who was best (win or lose! :) )

By definition, a draw means that NEITHER team was the better on the day. Surely there is such a thing as a stalemate? If 120 minutes + time on can't separate two teams, an extra 5 minutes wouldn't determine which team was better, it would just force a result, which is a different thing.

It would be an artificial construct that can be determined by a lucky bounce, a random occurence, an umpiring decision, or some such fluke. It wouldn't be any more satisfying.

[jitboy]

No need for extra time during the season, there are 22 rounds to work out which side is better. Inevitably on a given day two teams CAN have an equal level of performance. If Geelong and St Kilda would have drawn in round 14 I dare say it might have added more potential excitement to the finals.

I think on the weekend the result was fitting. Both sides played well in parts, but both played poorly enough during the 2 hrs not to deserve to win.

[AndrewP6]

By definition, a draw means that NEITHER team was the better on the day. Surely there is such a thing as a stalemate? If 120 minutes + time on can't separate two teams, an extra 5 minutes wouldn't determine which team was better, it would just force a result, which is a different thing.

It would be an artificial construct that can be determined by a lucky bounce, a random occurence, an umpiring decision, or some such fluke. It wouldn't be any more satisfying.

Sure, there is such a thing as a stalemate. I just don't like them, that's all. The way I see it, if my team's score is higher at the end of play, we're the better team on the day. Whether the end of play is regular time, or extra time, makes no difference to me. For mine, it would be FAR more satisfying to leave a game with one team ahead on the scoreboard.

[westdog54]

The point of extra time is to determine a winner. That's what I want to see. I take it you don't like any sort of tie-breaking method in any sport? It may well be "bollocks", but it's just my opinion. And, yes, I would propose you play till you get a result. No, it's not the Gospel, nor is it the view that everyone must share - the poll clearly shows that's not happening. It's just my opinion. I just don't like seeing no result in a sporting contest. You're free to hold a different view...just don't call my views "bollocks". Thanks.

I do hold a different view. That view being that your view is a load of Bollocks.

You're welcome.

[soupman]

Leave it as is. There is nothing wrong with a draw, it shakes up the ladder and makes footy more interesting. The extra toll on the players by playing for longer, and the dissatisfaction gained from losing in extra time both work against the idea, and a draw is a legitimate and correct result.

Why should a team that only beat another after extra time get as many points as one that did it within 4 quarters?

Also, how would it affect small other things, for example. The Coleman medal race. Imagine if Carlton had a draw last year, turned it on in extra time and Fev snagged enough goals to make his 100th in the regular season, and potentially win the medal over Buddy?

[LostDoggy]

Leave it as is. There is nothing wrong with a draw, it shakes up the ladder and makes footy more interesting.

That feeling of despair after a draw hate it to me its either win or lose.

[LostDoggy]

I understand the concept of the draw - no team played well enough to win - but the feeling after a draw is horrible. I voted to play extra time, but I can see merit in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" view as well.

That said, when we drew that game against Richmond I felt great because we deserved to lose, and I couldn't believe we'd managed to "steal" 2 points from that awful team!!!

[Topdog]

Sure, there is such a thing as a stalemate. I just don't like them, that's all. The way I see it, if my team's score is higher at the end of play, we're the better team on the day. Whether the end of play is regular time, or extra time, makes no difference to me. For mine, it would be FAR more satisfying to leave a game with one team ahead on the scoreboard.

Ok so it's the start of extra time and a free kick is paid against your team's runner which directly results in a goal to the opposition. The rest of the 5 minutes pass and you end up losing by a point. After that 5 minutes of extra time do you believe you're team is worse than the opposition?

5 minutes is such a harsh way to decide things. Leave the draw as those 2 points can be crucial.

After the Richmond game last year we snatched 2 points from that game. A draw in that game felt fantastic as we were terrible and I had my best mate singing the Tigers theme song at 3 qtr time. At the end of the game he was walking about 15m ahead of our group cos he was devastated. A draw to me is significant in that is says that neither team were better on the day and it usually signifies a close contest. That Geelong vs Saints game the other week deserved a draw.

[LostDoggy]

I will never forget the Richmond draw. I remember listening to the radio while at the game in the last moments after Big Bad Bussling Brian Lake went down and Will drilled it through. With little time left, the commentators said "Theres only one team that can win this". Ill never forget that quote, even though they didnt win they were right and got me even more pumped, even if it wasnt possible.

Dont take away the draw..you'll take away that empty feeling we all get when we do have a draw of "what could of been" as bad as that sounds a close contest always gets the adrenaline running through your system (and almost gives you a heart attack). If neither team is ahead when the game is all done, theres no losers so give them the 2pts each.



That Geelong vs Saints game the other week deserved a draw.

I agree. Great game..good first half by Stk, good second by Geelong.

[LostDoggy]

Dont take away the draw..you'll take away that empty feeling we all get when we do have a draw of "what could of been"

Exactly! Why do we have to sanitise collective human emotion to the point that all 'empty' feelings or lingering, negative ones are obliterated to be replaced by an artificial spectrum consisting only of artificially instantaneous and easily labelled ones like 'sunny', 'loser', or 'masterchef winner'?

It's like society today has to manufacture only 'positive' (or at the very least 'immediate') emotions because we're too immature to appreciate the multiplicity of human experience.

[AndrewP6]

Exactly! Why do we have to sanitise collective human emotion to the point that all 'empty' feelings or lingering, negative ones are obliterated to be replaced by an artificial spectrum consisting only of artificially instantaneous and easily labelled ones like 'sunny', 'loser', or 'masterchef winner'?

It's like society today has to manufacture only 'positive' (or at the very least 'immediate') emotions because we're too immature to appreciate the multiplicity of human experience.

No idea what the first paragraph means, but it sounds impressive. I don't think we would be replacing negative feelings by getting rid of draws... don't we feel "negative" after a loss? We also wouldn't be manufacturing positive emotions, unless our team was on the winning side! I personally think it's a stretch to equate a game of footy with society's ills. Just don't like drawn games.

[AndrewP6]

I will never forget the Richmond draw. I remember listening to the radio while at the game in the last moments after Big Bad Bussling Brian Lake went down and Will drilled it through. With little time left, the commentators said "Theres only one team that can win this". Ill never forget that quote, even though they didnt win they were right and got me even more pumped, even if it wasnt possible.

Dont take away the draw..you'll take away that empty feeling we all get when we do have a draw of "what could of been" as bad as that sounds a close contest always gets the adrenaline running through your system (and almost gives you a heart attack). If neither team is ahead when the game is all done, theres no losers so give them the 2pts each.


I too remember the Richmond draw. Hated that empty feeling. And we didn't really deserve two points, in all honesty. Had we played extra time, and somehow got away with the points, I'd go away, thinking "Well, we pinched one there." And that happens in the game today without extra time.

That remark from the commentators didn't make sense. They said there was only one team that could win, and they didn't - how were they right? As Manuel said, "I no understand".

That empty feeling of what could have been is exactly what I don't like, and want taken away. Put extra time up, and whatever happens in that time, so be it.

[AndrewP6]

Ok so it's the start of extra time and a free kick is paid against your team's runner which directly results in a goal to the opposition. The rest of the 5 minutes pass and you end up losing by a point. After that 5 minutes of extra time do you believe you're team is worse than the opposition?

5 minutes is such a harsh way to decide things. Leave the draw as those 2 points can be crucial.

After the Richmond game last year we snatched 2 points from that game. A draw in that game felt fantastic as we were terrible and I had my best mate singing the Tigers theme song at 3 qtr time. At the end of the game he was walking about 15m ahead of our group cos he was devastated. A draw to me is significant in that is says that neither team were better on the day and it usually signifies a close contest. That Geelong vs Saints game the other week deserved a draw.

If, in extra time, our runner infringes, costing us a goal, I'd scream my lungs out at the bloke, and probably swear a bit. That's competitive sport. People make errors, and some can be very costly. Plenty of things happen that impact the score, and it may or may not mean one team was better over the entire course of a contest. Same as if a bloke gives a 50m penalty away in the dying seconds, leading to a score. His team may have outperformed the other over the rest of the match, but as a part of that match, he made an error. And it cost them.

Extra time is harsh? Sorry, but these blokes are highly paid professionals. They're not out for a weekend game, or kids learning the sport. It may seem harsh, but professional sport can be...

I can't agree on the Tigers drawn game. I too was there, and I didn't really feel fantastic, just that we were lucky to get any points at all. Would have felt happy if after extra time, we gained some ascendancy and actually won. I hate draws.

[LostDoggy]

That empty feeling of what could have been is exactly what I don't like, and want taken away.

Empty feelings are real. Why take that away just to have some sense of finality? I'm not for the manufacture of 'immediate' emotion -- we are such an 'instant' people these days, everything has to make sense immediately, or else we don't want to deal with it.

A good, non rain-affected draw in cricket is one of the most sublime experiences in sport, comparable to reading a good, long novel instead of the ubiquitous bite-sized portions of a blog or magazine article.

Life doesn't always have the finality that we demand. Neither should sport. A 'draw' is a completely legitimate experience in most sports.. and there is no overwhelming argument to tamper with it in AFL apart from some vague sense of 'emptiness'. It doesn't compromise the draw or the integrity of the competition, it doesn't create any injustice or unfair situations.

If the 'emptiness' bothers individuals that much, the words 'get over it' come to mind.

[LostDoggy]

No idea what the first paragraph means, but it sounds impressive. I don't think we would be replacing negative feelings by getting rid of draws... don't we feel "negative" after a loss? We also wouldn't be manufacturing positive emotions, unless our team was on the winning side! I personally think it's a stretch to equate a game of footy with society's ills. Just don't like drawn games.

It's the manufacture of 'immediacy' that bothers me. It is definitely a by-product of an instantaneous culture, and the micro-attention spans cultivated by a lifetime of mass media sensibilities that cannot bear the thought of a lingering emotion.

And I don't understand how it can possibly be a stretch to equate a game of footy with society when it is an integral part of our culture (here in Melbourne anyway) and expresses itself in a myriad of ways, including us spending as much time as we do on an online blog to discuss our football team. The ball and the game itself could be meaningless, but as a society we've definitely superimposed a lot of meaning onto it, thus my analogy.

[Desipura]

It's the manufacture of 'immediacy' that bothers me. It is definitely a by-product of an instantaneous culture, and the micro-attention spans cultivated by a lifetime of mass media sensibilities that cannot bear the thought of a lingering emotion.

And I don't understand how it can possibly be a stretch to equate a game of footy with society when it is an integral part of our culture (here in Melbourne anyway) and expresses itself in a myriad of ways, including us spending as much time as we do on an online blog to discuss our football team. The ball and the game itself could be meaningless, but as a society we've definitely superimposed a lot of meaning onto it, thus my analogy.

Huh, :confused:Me just wants drawn games to stay as they are.

[AndrewP6]

Empty feelings are real. Why take that away just to have some sense of finality? I'm not for the manufacture of 'immediate' emotion -- we are such an 'instant' people these days, everything has to make sense immediately, or else we don't want to deal with it.

A good, non rain-affected draw in cricket is one of the most sublime experiences in sport, comparable to reading a good, long novel instead of the ubiquitous bite-sized portions of a blog or magazine article.

Life doesn't always have the finality that we demand. Neither should sport. A 'draw' is a completely legitimate experience in most sports.. and there is no overwhelming argument to tamper with it in AFL apart from some vague sense of 'emptiness'. It doesn't compromise the draw or the integrity of the competition, it doesn't create any injustice or unfair situations.

If the 'emptiness' bothers individuals that much, the words 'get over it' come to mind.

I like finality. I'd much rather stew for a week over a loss, than have a nothing result. And to me, it's just that - nothing.

I won't go near the cricket comparison, our views on that sport will most definitely clash...

Sorry, I just don't make correlations between sport and life. It's just a game, IMO, completely separate to the life experiences that we go through on a daily basis. There may not be an "overwhelming argument" to change the current system, it's only my opinion.

A bit disappointed with your other arguments being so well constructed, you chose to end with the simplistic "get over it". Could you do the same if the AFL decided to implement extra time to eradicate drawn games?

[AndrewP6]

It's the manufacture of 'immediacy' that bothers me. It is definitely a by-product of an instantaneous culture, and the micro-attention spans cultivated by a lifetime of mass media sensibilities that cannot bear the thought of a lingering emotion.

And I don't understand how it can possibly be a stretch to equate a game of footy with society when it is an integral part of our culture (here in Melbourne anyway) and expresses itself in a myriad of ways, including us spending as much time as we do on an online blog to discuss our football team. The ball and the game itself could be meaningless, but as a society we've definitely superimposed a lot of meaning onto it, thus my analogy.

I have no issue with "lingering emotion". I can live with a loss, stew for a week, or with a win and celebrate for a week (or longer!). It's just with a draw, there is nothing. The game starts, emotions ebb and flow depending on the match. At the end, with a draw, there's nothing. Well, maybe relief if we are behind, and manage to steal 2 points. But I feel that the game starts with two teams on equal scores, it should finish with a winner and a loser. And I'll deal with any emotions resulting.

Yes, we do spend lots of our time on this great game, but as I've said previously, it's just a game. I think its importance is overstated a little too much. Two teams run out, compete for a couple of hours, and walk away at the end (win, lose or draw!) That's it.

[LostDoggy]

A bit disappointed with your other arguments being so well constructed, you chose to end with the simplistic "get over it". Could you do the same if the AFL decided to implement extra time to eradicate drawn games?

I certainly would get over it! :) Even though I argue that sport mirrors society, I am aware that it is still separate from 'real' life, so to speak, and to be treated with a certain level of detachment.

I just don't like change for change's sake. Leave the game well enough alone.. (except the Priority Pick. Change THAT!)

[AndrewP6]

I certainly would get over it! :) Even though I argue that sport mirrors society, I am aware that it is still separate from 'real' life, so to speak, and to be treated with a certain level of detachment.

I just don't like change for change's sake. Leave the game well enough alone.. (except the Priority Pick. Change THAT!)

And get over it, I will. Don't think our little debate will reach AFL HQ! I don't see it as change for change's sake. I think it would improve the viewer's experience ( here we go again!:))

[Drunken Bum]

That remark from the commentators didn't make sense. They said there was only one team that could win, and they didn't - how were they right? As Manuel said, "I no understand".

Made perfect sense to me, only one team was capable of winning at that point in the game, just because they didnt doesn't make it any less true. Same as if they had of said Ninthmond cannot lose from here.

FWIW my opinion on the matter is if the AFL were to bring in extra time for drawn matches it would be just one more reason i am slowly losing interest in the game, not Footscray but the game itself.

[Topdog]

If, in extra time, our runner infringes, costing us a goal, I'd scream my lungs out at the bloke, and probably swear a bit. That's competitive sport. People make errors, and some can be very costly. Plenty of things happen that impact the score, and it may or may not mean one team was better over the entire course of a contest. Same as if a bloke gives a 50m penalty away in the dying seconds, leading to a score. His team may have outperformed the other over the rest of the match, but as a part of that match, he made an error. And it cost them.

and the team and professional players would lose a shootout because of someone who isn't a professional.


Extra time is harsh? Sorry, but these blokes are highly paid professionals. They're not out for a weekend game, or kids learning the sport. It may seem harsh, but professional sport can be...

OK I will re-word it. Extra time would be stupid and pointless. A draw is a result and the manufacturing of a result for no sound reason (I am yet to hear one other than it would feel better) would be another bit of interferring in rules where none is needed.

[qupte]I can't agree on the Tigers drawn game. I too was there, and I didn't really feel fantastic, just that we were lucky to get any points at all. Would have felt happy if after extra time, we gained some ascendancy and actually won. I hate draws.[/QUOTE]

If extra time were played the Bulldogs would have won that game by 6 goals. We were just running all over them. Actually that is another reason there should be no extra time, players train to run nout 120 minutes of football.

[AndrewP6]

and the team and professional players would lose a shootout because of someone who isn't a professional.

OK I will re-word it. Extra time would be stupid and pointless. A draw is a result and the manufacturing of a result for no sound reason (I am yet to hear one other than it would feel better) would be another bit of interferring in rules where none is needed.

If extra time were played the Bulldogs would have won that game by 6 goals. We were just running all over them. Actually that is another reason there should be no extra time, players train to run nout 120 minutes of football.

IMO, the "team" includes everyone who can enter the field of play. Including runners, trainers et al. If the team loses because of one of them, so be it. You cop it on the chin.

If, after extra time, we won by six goals, that's great. If we had lost by that (or another score) well, that's sport. You move on to the next match. They "train to run out 120 minutes"...does that mean they will all just fall over in extra time? They're professionals. Athletes. They'd cope. Might get fatigued, but again, that's part and parcel of the game.

Anyway, I'm not going to go through my "sound" reasons again. If you don't agree, well, them's the breaks. I gave my opinion. You can claim the win, if you like. Or we could call it a draw!

[AndrewP6]

Made perfect sense to me, only one team was capable of winning at that point in the game, just because they didnt doesn't make it any less true. Same as if they had of said Ninthmond cannot lose from here.

FWIW my opinion on the matter is if the AFL were to bring in extra time for drawn matches it would be just one more reason i am slowly losing interest in the game, not Footscray but the game itself.

And when the things they say will happen, don't happen, they sound silly. To me, anyway.

Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion, as we all are.

[The Coon Dog]

Thought I might bump this after the Collingwood/Melbourne draw this afternoon, particularly in light of Mark Stevens comments in the Herald Sun:

'If ever there was an advert for an extra five minutes each way to settle the result, this was it.

We are in the entertainment business - and this was a day that would have had more entertainment value with a result'.

Link (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/melbourne-collingwood-draw-a-great-advert-for-extra-time/story-e6frf9jf-1225879592348)

[GVGjr]

I think the AFL has it right. Extra time in the finals if a draw occurs but I'd leave the H&A set-up as it is.

[bold-dogg]

I love the game and don't like it changed unless the change is necessary, eg the off-side rule in soccer, or the kevin bartlett rule, or OHS considerations.

Change for changes sake seems to have become an obsession, see "Hutchies" suppositions on Footy Classified the other night that times have changed and the game needs to change too. Says who? Says Hutchie that's who. I question both assumptions.

Shorten quarters, change the goalposts, or add a horizontal bar to them, make it 3 points for a behind, supergoals, extra time etc. If we listen to all these geniuses the game would be unrecognizable.

The game is played over so many minutes. If it's a draw so be it, the two teams were evenly matched over the 100 minutes plus time-on for interruptions.

Like I said, I like the game just as it is, one of the world's great sports. Brash young ego's with a facile opinion on everything, please leave it alone.

[chef]

I think the AFL has it right. Extra time in the finals if a draw occurs but I'd leave the H&A set-up as it is.

Same here, I don't see whats wrong with a draw(H&A), it's still a result.

[LostDoggy]

I love the game and don't like it changed unless the change is necessary, eg the off-side rule in soccer, or the kevin bartlett rule, or OHS considerations.

Change for changes sake seems to have become an obsession, see "Hutchies" suppositions on Footy Classified the other night that times have changed and the game needs to change too. Says who? Says Hutchie that's who. I question both assumptions.

Shorten quarters, change the goalposts, or add a horizontal bar to them, make it 3 points for a behind, supergoals, extra time etc. If we listen to all these geniuses the game would be unrecognizable.

The game is played over so many minutes. If it's a draw so be it, the two teams were evenly matched over the 100 minutes plus time-on for interruptions.

Like I said, I like the game just as it is, one of the world's great sports. Brash young ego's with a facile opinion on everything, please leave it alone.

Beautifully said.

[always right]

Same here, I don't see whats wrong with a draw(H&A), it's still a result.

Agree...the two points often prove to be as good as a win at the end of the year. Don't understand this push for a result. Sometimes a draw feels like a win when you've come from behind. I remember years ago at the Western Oval we played the Swans and were expected to win comfortably. Never felt so relieved to see Super McPherson kick a point late in the game to get a draw.

[Topdog]

I still want to know what problem people have with a draw.

Also if we introduce an extra 5 minutes, what happens if it is a draw after the extra 5 minutes? Do we go on an endless loop?

[LostDoggy]

Agree...the two points often prove to be as good as a win at the end of the year. Don't understand this push for a result. Sometimes a draw feels like a win when you've come from behind. I remember years ago at the Western Oval we played the Swans and were expected to win comfortably. Never felt so relieved to see Super McPherson kick a point late in the game to get a draw.

Or that game against North Melbourne at the MCG when Super kicked the goal after the siren to draw the game - felt like we'd won it!! :)

Or when we played Hawthorn at the Western Oval & Darren Pritchard ran into the open goal & kicked a point - relieved then too. :)

Or against Richmond at Telstra Dome in 2008 when Big Will kicked Brian Lake's goal for him to draw the game? ;)

We've had a few 'good' draws haven't we? :D

[SonofScray]

The draw is fine by me. I get sick of this same discussion time one occurs. The only thing that needs to be looked at is the draw in the context of a Grand Final.

[LostDoggy]

Yes keep the draw. i am already trying to calculate the fixture to see where we may get that 2 points ahead of Collingwood but I think we may be 2 points behind them at the end of the season but hopefully four points ahead of Freo and in fourth!

Would love to see a 'penalty shootout' scenario in the pre-season comp one day though.
10 players from each side with one shot at goal each from 45m out. That could be fun.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I read somewhere a while back that there are over 800 registered AFL journos. That's more than there are players!

They all have to write something so every time anything happens at all we end up with articles being written and some clown wants to right a supposed wrong.

Tell 'em all to bugger off, we only need 8 jounos in total (less if we can get them to double up on games), then we can get rid of the 100's of duds.

[LostDoggy]

I read somewhere a while back that there are over 800 registered AFL journos. That's more than there are players!


Maybe they are like guardian angels -- every AFL player gets one. Which means that there will be more when GC17 and GWS join the comp, which probably won't be far from the truth in any case.

[Topdog]

I read somewhere a while back that there are over 800 registered AFL journos. That's more than there are players!

They all have to write something so every time anything happens at all we end up with articles being written and some clown wants to right a supposed wrong.

Tell 'em all to bugger off, we only need 8 jounos in total (less if we can get them to double up on games), then we can get rid of the 100's of duds.

But what will all the ex players do??

[mighty_west]

Extra time or a shoot-out? definatly not.

Some of the great games over the years have ended up with scores level, so what!

There are all kind of emotions in play, the being satisfied walking away after a win, the walking away with the tail between the legs after a loss, and the empty feeling, kind of a numb feeling with scores tied, then off course how it effects the ladder, and those teams with a draw for that season, the percentage get's taken out of play for those sides, it is all part of the beauty of our great game....why muck with it?

What happens in the case where a team is shot with injury during a game, the other side comes right back, it ends up being a draw...the side with injuries continues to get blown away in extra time, how is that fair? during the 120 minutes of play, the 2 teams have tied, why punish the side that will struggle with another 1 or 2 minutes let alone 5 or 10 minutes of play?

I understand how frustrating a draw can be, but the frustration would multply if our team went down, after we had secured the 2 points, how satisfying would that be? hell no!

[LostDoggy]

Having had 'Golden Point' in the NRL over the past few years, I think there are positives and negatives to both determining a winner and leaving it as a draw.

It is very exciting to know that the next score wins the game. There are lots of field goal attempts and it's great to win it that way. However if you're on the wrong end of that and lose it's heartbreaking. Storm have won and lost games in Golden Point time. We've also still ended up with a draw after 10 minutes of extra time and the players are absolutely stuffed.

Personally I think a draw is a draw, each team gets points, leave it that way. :)

[AndrewP6]

I've been offline for a week, 785 unread posts await, including the ones on this thread. I won't go over previous posts, I've made my feelings known....suffice to say, I want the draw GOOOORN! Hate it.

[LostDoggy]

Don't have a problem with a drawn game. Surely we don't want our game to become soccer-like. I personally hate the penalty shoot out in soccer - I think it's a cr*p way to get a result. I definitely wouldn't like to see extra time or anything like it. Our game as win, loss and draw (except in finals, which is fine). If it ain't broke, no need to fix it!