What can we learn?

[Ghost Dog]

Cannot agree with Caroline Wilson in her article today (http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/coaches-exit-as-player-power-rises-in-the-afl-20141010-114fa6.html). Her surprise at how Peter could term today ' inspiring' is like a something minor trying to understand the workings of a major. Have a go at being a president of an AFL club Caro, and see how you fare.
You can always see the disrespect and bias coming a mile off when the 'financials' are mentioned in the same sentence.

And yes, he has a good grasp of English Caro, are you jealous? Your articles are shrill and full of bias.
Notice how she crafts today's article (Coaches exit as player power rises in the AFL ) to be a bashing of Essendon in disguise? Yes, Peter can be upbeat, because he has the grand vision and perspective of the long term. It's not spin Caro. It's professionalism. Something Ryan wasn't able to demonstrate unfortunately. So, we choose not the blame game, now the coach is gone, but to move forward.


Don't appoint a captain who doesn't really, really want the privilege.
No disrespect to Brendan, who I respect. First time senior coaches might be better off a bit younger and more flexible, or given more support.
Perhaps the mid year review needs to be a little more extensive to flesh out these things sooner?



Cannot speak highly enough about Peter and his ability to communicate. When he writes group emails, it feels as though he is talking directly at me.

The fact we lanced this particular boil now is a good thing. We can move on now. But what can we learn from it to help us in the future?

[Remi Moses]

I agree with most of the article . If it's not a crisis, what is?
Pretty salient point one would think, but of course Peter isn't going to say its a crisis.
It's a massive hit for the club, but hey we were out of existence in 1989, so this is minor in comparison .
As I've pointed out, we need a blank canvas and a fresh outside coach .
Let Griffen go, it's untenable, like it seems the case with McCartney.
Focus in the fact the club can set up a massive arsenal of young stars, via the draft.
Sell the fact we're in a good position to land what we've been craving for all these years for.

[chef]

But what can we learn from it to help us in the future?

I've learnt as much as things change, they've really just stayed the same.

[always right]

I've learned that we are a small battling club, constantly having to balance making tough decisions with the task of selling hope. Can you imagine Eddie McGuire holding that press conference yesterday? It's the difference between a big club with 70,000 members who can afford to put 10,000 of them offside for a period of time....and a club like ours who have their eye on the bottom line with every statement they make. We can criticise PG and SG all we like but who would want their jobs? How they negotiate the next couple of months will really test their mettle. All power to them.

[Murphy'sLore]

It was really noticeable yesterday that PG lost no opportunity to pump up the positives - how great Chris Grant is, even the Edgewater development. It underlines the fact that selling hope has to be the top priority.

[bornadog]

What we can learn is that when you have 44 players on your list, plus rookies, plus VFL players, assistant coaches, trainers, physios, etc etc you need someone that can manage a large organisation. No longer is football like the old days or like the footy clubs up the country where you have a bunch of part time players with part time volunteers. Managing an AFL team is extremely hard work, which Macca found out. To top it off you have to promote the club, work in the community and withstand pressure from the supporters the Board and the media.

Therefore what I have learnt is we need to bring in someone that is not only a great football person, but a great manager of young men who are all different and have different needs and a management style suitable for the 21st century.

[Mofra]

I agree with most of the article . If it's not a crisis, what is?
Very, very good question.

http://www.news.com.au/national/western-bulldogs-president-peter-gordon-said-his-club-wasnt-in-crisis-then-what-is-it/story-e6frfkp9-1227086828837

Sums much of the situation up for me

[chef]

I agree with most of the article . If it's not a crisis, what is?

I keep thinking of this.

518

[Topdog]

Very, very good question.

http://www.news.com.au/national/western-bulldogs-president-peter-gordon-said-his-club-wasnt-in-crisis-then-what-is-it/story-e6frfkp9-1227086828837

Sums much of the situation up for me

Agree with the main points of the article but my goodness that is poorly written. Feels like he just wrote random thoughts on a piece of paper and handed it in to his teacher as the final edition.

[always right]

Agree with the main points of the article but my goodness that is poorly written. Feels like he just wrote random thoughts on a piece of paper and handed it in to his teacher as the final edition.

That's his style. Man of the people.:rolleyes:

[Jeanette54]

That's his style. Man of the people.

And that comment highlights what is wrong with Peter Gordon's press conference.

Heavy on Presidential spin, corporate speak, unfounded optimism and very light on facts.

I didn't expect a 5 point plan of recovery at such short notice, this needs careful, and timely consideration.

But I did expect a bit of honesty, and not the glossy white wash we got.

How did we get to this point, and how did management let it get to this point. It worries me that management were supposedly on top of all this. Really????

Hopefully, behind close doors he still calls a spade a spade.

At least now we understand the player's insipid performance in the final AFL game.

[LostDoggy]

What we can learn is that when you have 44 players on your list, plus rookies, plus VFL players, assistant coaches, trainers, physios, etc etc you need someone that can manage a large organisation. No longer is football like the old days or like the footy clubs up the country where you have a bunch of part time players with part time volunteers. Managing an AFL team is extremely hard work, which Macca found out. To top it off you have to promote the club, work in the community and withstand pressure from the supporters the Board and the media.

Therefore what I have learnt is we need to bring in someone that is not only a great football person, but a great manager of young men who are all different and have different needs and a management style suitable for the 21st century.

Do you seriously think this isn't on the criteria sheet at the job interviews?

[lemmon]

And that comment highlights what is wrong with Peter Gordon's press conference.

Heavy on Presidential spin, corporate speak, unfounded optimism and very light on facts.

I didn't expect a 5 point plan of recovery at such short notice, this needs careful, and timely consideration.

But I did expect a bit of honesty, and not the glossy white wash we got.

How did we get to this point, and how did management let it get to this point. It worries me that management were supposedly on top of all this. Really????

Hopefully, behind close doors he still calls a spade a spade.

At least now we understand the player's insipid performance in the final AFL game.

Fairly sure Always Right was talking about the writing style of the author: Mark Robinson. His stuff is nigh on unreadable

[azabob]

Cannot speak highly enough about Peter and his ability to communicate. When he writes group emails, it feels as though he is talking directly at me.

The fact we lanced this particular boil now is a good thing. We can move on now. But what can we learn from it to help us in the future?

GD not sure what your problem is with Caroline Wilson. The article was pretty much spot on.

Player power is greater than ever. Why do you think we are coach less? Why do you think Adelaide have a new coach? Why are Gold Coast looking for a new coach?

Peter's communication over the last 24 hours has been nothing but spin and rubbish.

[bornadog]

Peter's communication over the last 24 hours has been nothing but spin and rubbish.

Not sure what else Peter could have said under the circumstances.

Don't forget a week earlier, there were rumours Macca was getting the sack, so something was brewing.

Funny thing I was coming back from a meeting in Geelong and had someone in the car with me listening to the press conference. He said, boy this guy would convince anyone to join ISIS:D

[Ghost Dog]

One person's crisis is another's catalyst for change.

I can see many of you showing 'likes' in support of the Wilson article.
Are these the same people who were casting doubt about the coach? Well, you have your wish now!
I'm not sure what terms Brendan agreed to, but he is gone, and most people here seemed to have it in their minds he was more of a developer of people than a long term prospect anyway.
Many of us were wringing your hands over the nature of Ryan's back injury earlier in the season. He's 29 and his best footy is behind him. Agree, losing the captain is a bad look. But if we get pick 4 and a youngster from GWS, how will this affect the perception of this event?
Ryan has chosen to walk and there is nothing we can do. He could have used this conflict to forge a better relationship and become a better person.

Nobody doubts the club would have bent over backward to accommodate Ryan's requests.
The fact that he is leaving, despite the coach walking is evidence he probably had eyes on GWS for some time. Brendan did not seem to me like a person who could not be negotiated with. People are quick to blame the club. But why not blame Ryan?

That's a crisis, sure. But what will it be in 10 years time?

Fight-back was a 'crisis' but it was also our 'federation' moment, and forged the modern identity of the club. Who would trade that story in our club's history?

Some people call it spin.Why not just a positive mind set?

The fact is, we are getting better as a club all the time. There are moments of a bit of a slide, but there are plenty of positives being ignored. Our VFL win doesn't even rate a mention with Tim Lane, or Wilson.
The re-development of the ground. The appointment of Jason. NAB awards to one of ours. Very promising.

There will be a collective clash of bench press weights down at the club this pre-season. Watch how our younger group responds to this.

It's only a crisis if you don't learn from it and get better. It's the sort of fall-out that can set the ship straight and I've seen it 100 times in many organisations. It's sad Ryan didn't allow the club time to learn and grow, but we will without him. It will just take longer to heal as we lost a very good person in Brendan. History shows there are lots of clubs that sacked their coach or had them walk. Then came out firing. It's going to be a very interesting time.

[azabob]

So GD, sacking the coach, and our captain, our best player no less walking out, in the space 24 hours isn't a crisis. In footballing terms surely that is a crisis?

For the record I am, was a fan and supporter of Brendan McCartney. My posts in the relevant threads support this.

Our club has had an extremely poor 72 hours.

[Remi Moses]

Whately summed it up the other day .
Pragmatic as ever he says it's getting like "Survivor" and getting someone ( the coach ) booted off the island .
Basically the tribe has spoken. It is a " footballing crisis", and the thing that can smooth the situation is time, getting your "shit " together, and booting out the main men.

[BulldogBelle]

I think that Macca's appointment as coach, for myself and a the vast majority of supporters, was the holy grail Macca was the messiah, he preached the stuff we wanted to hear, long-term sustained success. It was the great hope. Who wouldn't want that.

We lost games early in his tenure in 2012, but we were learning and winning the hard ball. Things looked sort of promising. As far of the playing group is concerned things started to go bad mid 2013 when players and coach got to loggerheads. In 2014 the situation worsened, players became disenchanted with is on-field tactics and team selections that just would not work. Players like Griffen, Cooney and Roughhead played with injuries. Griffen, with his injury, was targeted and bashed by opposition players every week, only Libba it appears did anything to help.

By mid-year it should have been obvious to all that both our forward and backlines were dysfunctional. There became grave doubts about Macca's player development skills as many players went backward, such as Tutt, Jones, Talia, Roughhead, JJ, Young, Fuller and Grant, or otherwise did not develop as expected.

Three years should be more than ample time for a coach to bed down his winning 'Geelong-game-plan'; at the end of the year when we were defeated by a depleted GWS side it was obvious that our game plan was a shambles. In addition Macca loved dud players such as Austin and Addison and tried to recruit duds and oldies from other teams.

The media have seized upon the fact that some end-of-year interviews were acrimonious and blamed the whole mess on the senior players, although they have no idea what non-senior layers were involved. Senior players are those who play in the Senior team and has nothing to do with age.

There is more, the rest of the Griffen goings-on.

So the media and half of our supporters are getting stuck into us with such hackneyed aphorisms as the tail wagging the dog and we are a team with a bad culture and more.

Looks like these were mistakes that we made and that we should learn from.

!. Hiring Macca was a mistake. His man-management skills and ability to put winning strategies into place were awry. He told us exactly what we wanted to hear. Bang, right on the raw nerve. Don't be overawed by rhetoric.

2. Appointing Griffen as captain was a mistake. Don't appoint your best player as captain just because he can lead well by example on field. Being a captain means more responsibilities than that.

3. Macca should have been sacked after the mid-season review. Apparently the board was going to sack him but Griffen's agreement to work with the coach just tipped the scale to save him. There were enough reasons to sack the coach besides player unrest.

4. Griffen fell on his sword that precipitated Macca to fall on his sword. Don't know what we can do about that.

5. Gordon's Macca sacking interview was fairly good but did not get to the heart of the problem. There was no real criticism of Macca, giving no reasons while they were initially considering to sack him. This just gave the vulturous journos and commentators an unbridled opportunity to heap all of the excrement on us that their little hearts desired.

Whether it was true or not Gordon should have mentioned something more about the lack of on-field success, 3 years to instigate an effective game plan and mention other concerns. This would have at least occupied the journos minds with what the other concerns were.

Gordon should have mentioned that the player dissatisfaction with Macca's coaching extended right across the board and included older and younger players. This would have chopped out 90% of criticism.

All of the above of course destroys Macca, and this was not Gordon's intention. Part of Gordon's intention was obviously not to burn bridges.

[BulldogBelle]

The next thing has to be Star Wars Episode IV - A NEW HOPE.

[Ghost Dog]

So GD, sacking the coach, and our captain, our best player no less walking out, in the space 24 hours isn't a crisis. In footballing terms surely that is a crisis?

For the record I am, was a fan and supporter of Brendan McCartney. My posts in the relevant threads support this.

Our club has had an extremely poor 72 hours.



I'm not not sure the coach was sacked. Both parties agreed that it was time to part ways. This is a bit different to a forced removal by a board. The coach himself made the call.

[chef]

I'm not not sure the coach was sacked. Both parties agreed that it was time to part ways. This is a bit different to a forced removal by a board. The coach himself made the call.

To me it sounds like Brendan got a tap on the shoulder from PG and Garlick.

[Maddog37]

I reckon Macca would be reassessing if head coach is the best job for him too.

[The Doctor]

What we can learn form this is the importance of Strong Leadership. We just don't have it and haven't had it for generations.

When you look at the main players in our current sorry state; Peter Gordon, Simon Garlick, Macca, Griffen, that footy manager guy, what's his name? Lowe? The player leadership group. Which one of these showed great leadership before, during and after this mess? The answer is none and that is why we are where we are today.

Once upon a time clubs like Hawthorn and north Melbourne envied us and then things changed. They found great club leaders either from within (Hawthorn under Kennedy) or they went out and brought them in (North under Barassi) that set them up. Hawthorn are a fantastic football story. They seem to find brilliant leaders to lift them through anything.

Until we can find or bring in people with high calibre leadership to challenge our club to lift it's game then the status quo will remain and we'll be having these same issues in 5 or 10 years from now

[bornadog]

I reckon Macca would be reassessing if head coach is the best job for him too.

He gave it his best shot, but just not up to the top job. Very difficult to go from an assistant to the top job.

Macca himself said he put on a lot of pressure on the players mid way during the year and didn't communicate properly with them.

I think he was under pressure from supporters and management to win games, and his reaction was one of a desperate man, instead of sticking to his own plan.

[boydogs]

So the media and half of our supporters are getting stuck into us with such hackneyed aphorisms as the tail wagging the dog and we are a team with a bad culture and more.

It was absolutely the tail wagging the dog. If the board wanted to sack Macca they could have done so, there was a review completed whch found that he just needed some more support on match day and to work on his communication with the players. Then the players started walking, and when it came to Griffen the club lost its nerve.

Losing Macca isn't the worst thing in the world as he did have his challenges, but having the playing group alter the club's decision making because he was too hard on them is. We need a playing group that responds when challenged, instead of looking to remove the person pushing them to improve. If we were going to change the findings of our review, it should have been to trade those players that wanted to go as they are effectively uncoachable, instead of firing the coach.

Now we're left without our coach and stuck with players who resist when challenged instead of stepping up.

[westdog54]

He gave it his best shot, but just not up to the top job. Very difficult to go from an assistant to the top job.

Macca himself said he put on a lot of pressure on the players mid way during the year and didn't communicate properly with them.

I think he was under pressure from supporters and management to win games, and his reaction was one of a desperate man, instead of sticking to his own plan.

He said that jumping from assistant to senor coach was a '300%' jump in intensity when he was inherited for The Chosen Few.

[bornadog]

He said that jumping from assistant to senor coach was a '300%' jump in intensity when he was inherited for The Chosen Few.

Tough gig.

[BulldogBelle]

It was absolutely the tail wagging the dog. If the board wanted to sack Macca they could have done so, there was a review completed whch found that he just needed some more support on match day and to work on his communication with the players. Then the players started walking, and when it came to Griffen the club lost its nerve.

Losing Macca isn't the worst thing in the world as he did have his challenges, but having the playing group alter the club's decision making because he was too hard on them is. We need a playing group that responds when challenged, instead of looking to remove the person pushing them to improve. If we were going to change the findings of our review, it should have been to trade those players that wanted to go as they are effectively uncoachable, instead of firing the coach.

Now we're left without our coach and stuck with players who resist when challenged instead of stepping up.


Firing just those players who dissented apparently turned out not to be a viable option as there were just too many of them. There may have been other players who didn't dissent but wanted to. We also don't know the mix of them, did they include Bonti, Libba and Dahl for example. Also we don't know whether or not the players were completely justified in their approach.

Throwing out the baby with the bathwater, continuing to back a person who couldn't coach - just not realistic options.

Best thing to do is to ride out the storm and start again.

Like I said, we need a new hope.

[BulldogBelle]

Nobody, to my knowledge has come out and fired a shot for the players.

Nobody has really stuck up for the players.

Nobody seems to know really what went on.

The players are getting stick from all quarters and yet it may turn out that they are the very saints in it all.

Would a statement from the players help do you think?

[Ghost Dog]

To me it sounds like Brendan got a tap on the shoulder from PG and Garlick.

We have no way of knowing

[bulldogtragic]

We have no way of knowing

Actually there is. Ligature marks on the body show the knife likely a cold industrial meat clever, massive size, entry wound shows it was in the neck and in the back. Multiple smaller wounds show he was stabbed in the front too. Lack of cuts on the forearms tells me he didn't raise his arms to fight the attackers. Looks like he was completely surrounded. Indicates to me he saw his attackers, but the fatal wound was from the back and copped it in the neck. Should be easy to work out who it was, witnesses say two Caucasian men were seen running away, one had the number 16 on his back. Two other men from Footscray remained at the scene and are not assisting members with our investigation.

[Hotdog60]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvs4bOMv5Xw

[Scorlibo]

What we can learn form this is the importance of Strong Leadership. We just don't have it and haven't had it for generations.

When you look at the main players in our current sorry state; Peter Gordon, Simon Garlick, Macca, Griffen, that footy manager guy, what's his name? Lowe? The player leadership group. Which one of these showed great leadership before, during and after this mess? The answer is none and that is why we are where we are today.

Once upon a time clubs like Hawthorn and north Melbourne envied us and then things changed. They found great club leaders either from within (Hawthorn under Kennedy) or they went out and brought them in (North under Barassi) that set them up. Hawthorn are a fantastic football story. They seem to find brilliant leaders to lift them through anything.

Until we can find or bring in people with high calibre leadership to challenge our club to lift it's game then the status quo will remain and we'll be having these same issues in 5 or 10 years from now

Peter Gordon has shown outstanding leadership through this whole ordeal, as he has always done really.


Nobody, to my knowledge has come out and fired a shot for the players.

Nobody has really stuck up for the players.

Nobody seems to know really what went on.

The players are getting stick from all quarters and yet it may turn out that they are the very saints in it all.

Would a statement from the players help do you think?

A collective statement would be impossible given that this issue seems to have divided the group. Not in terms of older and younger players, but across the board, as Peter Gordon said, there was both support and criticism for Macca.

I'm not unhappy with the players per se. It's hard as an outsider reading things as they've unfolded, but I know from having met Macca, from the many interviews I've watched of him, that he's an incredibly measured and amiable man. While he may have taken a slightly dogmatic approach into his views on football success, he is not an unreasonable person. Given this, I truly struggle to understand how things could have escalated to the point they did without the players being at least a little bit negligent in their approach.

Griffen completely blindsided us. He was given a meeting to discuss the issues he saw, and instead of laying down his ultimatum, chose to go behind the club's back. That's the wrong approach.

I went to a family function today and one of my relatives (a North Melbourne supporter) said that he shared a box with Adam Cooney and his wife for the Sydney vs North prelim. He said that Cooney told him at that game that he would probably be at North Melbourne next year, that he'd already spoken to North management. I'm really disappointed with that. If you are unhappy, work on solving the problem. If you don't see the problem being solved, inform management - tell them that it's now a matter of players leaving.

If the players have taken issue with Macca's way of doing things, fair enough, I don't have inner sanctum access, I'm not in a position to judge. But their actions thus far in this fiasco have been exceptionally unintelligent. They're allowed to be disgruntled, but they have to be open and honest about it. The President shouldn't have to sit down with the players one by one and extract their opinions on the matter, and if he does, the captain shouldn't have to leave the club before this occurs!

[The Doctor]

Peter Gordon has shown outstanding leadership through this whole ordeal, as he has always done really.



No he hasn't, not on this one and he has a past record when it comes to stuffing up coaching appointments.

If PG had managed this well we wouldn't be hearing about this. He would have sorted it out long ago when the trouble first started. If it continued to stir he would have got stuck into Garlick about it and so on. Let's not gorget PG oversaw the unnecessary extension of McCartney's contract before he was entitled to it.

He has also had the the blood of Wheeler and Joyce on his hands. The decisions on these guys went pear shaped as well.

[Ghost Dog]

No he hasn't, not on this one and he has a past record when it comes to stuffing up coaching appointments.

If PG had managed this well we wouldn't be hearing about this. He would have sorted it out long ago when the trouble first started. If it continued to stir he would have got stuck into Garlick about it and so on. Let's not gorget PG oversaw the unnecessary extension of McCartney's contract before he was entitled to it.

He has also had the the blood of Wheeler and Joyce on his hands. The decisions on these guys went pear shaped as well.

Bit easy in hindsight isn't it? Entitled to judge he hadn't earned his extension and recent events suggest you are right, in hindsight. Without that luxury however, I think you would be in the minority.

We had very good improvement from several top players. Would you agree Ryan Griffen was one player who benefited in his game under Brendan's tenure?. Libba was another, as with Stringer, McCrae and Bontempelli. Secondly, the positive about the extension: the performance clauses. McCartney will earn less than half of what he was entitled to owing to clauses Peter ensured were in the contract.

In terms of 'sorting it out long ago' blow ups happen, and if you believe Peter's letter, Ryan went into the break telling the club one thing, then did a 180 degree turn. In essence, if you read it the way Peter wrote the tale, he lied. Well, it's a bit of a grey area to ping the club for that. It seems the club ( Peter and the board ) have been just a little hard done by if (as some say) GWS have been chipping away at negotiations already with Ryan for some months. ( I find that easy to believe because of the club connection with Cameron, and the fact most list managers look pretty far into the future. I assume!)

I would like to think Brendan himself should have identified these issues a lot earlier. He lost his job for that, 50% of his entitlement( if you believe fairfax,) and will never be a senior coach again.

[hujsh]

Nobody, to my knowledge has come out and fired a shot for the players.

Nobody has really stuck up for the players.

Nobody seems to know really what went on.

The players are getting stick from all quarters and yet it may turn out that they are the very saints in it all.

Would a statement from the players help do you think?

I'd love to know what Murphy or Morris or maybe Gia thought about all this

[Remi Moses]

The extension of coaching contracts like B McCartney got are ridiculous
( I've done a PG because I supported the extension) why on earth does it need to be done?
He wasn't going anywhere( as he is a straight up guy) and I'd doubt he would have been pursued.
I have a feeling they were s*** frightened of copping negative press, and putting pressure on the players , if results went pair shaped

[Scorlibo]

No he hasn't, not on this one and he has a past record when it comes to stuffing up coaching appointments.

If PG had managed this well we wouldn't be hearing about this. He would have sorted it out long ago when the trouble first started. If it continued to stir he would have got stuck into Garlick about it and so on. Let's not gorget PG oversaw the unnecessary extension of McCartney's contract before he was entitled to it.

He has also had the the blood of Wheeler and Joyce on his hands. The decisions on these guys went pear shaped as well.

That's your opinion. I'd be surprised if it was a popular one. I'd contest that at least the McCartney appointment was not Peter's decision, although perhaps in hindsight the contract extension was premature. It's hard to know what share of responsibility the players have in all of this.

Given your stance on our lack of leadership, and in terms of the playing group I agree, do you think that we need to get some experience in through the trade period? There's every possibility that at the end of next year the oldest players on our list will be Liam Picken, Tory Dickson, Stewart Crameri and Jarrad Grant.

[The Doctor]

Bit easy in hindsight isn't it? Entitled to judge he hadn't earned his extension and recent events suggest you are right, in hindsight. Without that luxury however, I think you would be in the minority.



Hindsight has nothing to do with this. I posted about 12-18 months ago I was against an extension when it was being mooted My opinion was he needed to have a good first half of 2014 to deserve it. Anyway it matter not now.

[The Doctor]

Given your stance on our lack of leadership, and in terms of the playing group I agree, do you think that we need to get some experience in through the trade period? There's every possibility that at the end of next year the oldest players on our list will be Liam Picken, Tory Dickson, Stewart Crameri and Jarrad Grant.

That's a good question.

It depends on what we have in the club and if anyone is ready to step up. None of the middle aged players we have left strike me as leadership types and most of them have struggled to get a game. Given what we now know of the senior group I doubt we would go down that path.In any case by Thursday there might not be any left. Although Murphy could be a good short term option.

Do we go out to market and buy a captain or bring in senior players with leadership qualities? I guess this is what the Lonegan idea was about. Who is available?

I remember when I was living in Sydney in the late 70's the rugby league team I followed Parramatta were the perennial under achievers. They had played a lot of recent finals series but couldn't win one, they had never won a GF. But their junior teams dominated and won titles. So they went out and hired a coach with premiership winning experience Jack Gibson, recruited a hard nosed captain of another club Steve Edge and made him captain and then they cleared out a whole bunch of senior players leaving them with a handful of senior guys and a bunch of hotshot kids. They brought in another 2 old timers to beef up the engine room and to give the team more experience. result? 4 flags in 6 years.

Anything is possible with good management and good leadership.

[jeemak]

Are we not allowed to at least acknowledge that even PG can get things wrong throughout his tenure as a president, and in times like this is more likely to get things wrong than he would under normal circumstances?

The reality is irrespective of PG's talent, with the group of senior players we have had sitting on the banana lounge for the last few years, coupled with the talent issues we have with our unbalanced list this year (and prior to that) - and a relatively new coach on the books looking for a long term plan - it was always likely to be a cluster *!*!*!*! unless all things went absolutely brilliantly?

You can look at other clubs and perhaps pick and choose subjectively how they might have done things differently than we did, but every club is inherently different, and every club climbs the ladder at different stages, mainly due to talent and list management.

There's absolutely no way McCartney would have been selected for the job he was if we had have drafted properly between 2000-2010. If that minor detail was taken care of there's a fair chance PG wouldn't even be president and we'd be only dealing with a second year coach after Rocket faded out a year or two later than he did with the fading list he had at his disposal.

We're all experts on leadership, with the benefit of hindsight. It's funny that as experts none of us seem to acknowledge that a fair portion of the ingredients that make up the recipe for sound leadership are circumstantial.

[Scorlibo]

Are we not allowed to at least acknowledge that even PG can get things wrong throughout his tenure as a president, and in times like this is more likely to get things wrong than he would under normal circumstances?

It's always healthy to take a critical standpoint. My endorsement of PG is more to do with how he has handled things in the last week since Griffen left. Regardless of any mismanagement resulting in the captain and coach leaving the club, and PG's role in that, his words and actions thereafter have been stoic.

[always right]

It's always healthy to take a critical standpoint. My endorsement of PG is more to do with how he has handled things in the last week since Griffen left. Regardless of any mismanagement resulting in the captain and coach leaving the club, and PG's role in that, his words and actions thereafter have been stoic.

I think he was over the top in his praise of Griffen and our players in the press conference. It made him and our club look silly.

[LostDoggy]

I think he was over the top in his praise of Griffen and our players in the press conference. It made him and our club look silly.

He was building a case for Boyd. You can't rubbish your player then demand last year's number one pick for him.

[Ghost Dog]

The more I think about it, the more I just cannot understand it.
Here is a guy that goes camping, volunteers on farms, goes pig shooting, dislikes the city, and wants to move to Western Sydney. It makes me wonder if something else is going on behind the scenes.

I wish him well, but I have a feeling it's not going to work out for him.

[ledge]

What we have learnt and the AFL has learnt is that contracts mean nothing in your last year except bargaining power of a sort.
I think a rule should be passed that if a club wants to talk to a contracted player they must ask the club permission first.