TRADE GRIFFEN OUT!!!! How do we get the message through to Peter Gordon?

[Dancin' Douggy]

I'VE GOT AN AWFUL NERVOUS FEELING IN MY GUT THAT PETER IS GENUINELY TRYING TO GET RYAN GRIFFEN TO STAY.

This would be untenable as far as I'm concerned, and would be the first time ever I would consider not renewing my membership. I just couldn't motivate myself to go the game and watch Griffen running around in our guernsey.
The thought of it just fills me with despair. It would be an awful hollow experience. I just couldn't do it.
It's not even that a hate him. It's just what it would say about the club.

There is a vote running on Big Footy that has supporters voting 98% in favour of letting Griffen go.
I hope desperately that Gordon and Garlic can sense the mood of the fans.

While Ryan is still on our list, it feels like the band-aid is only half ripped off.

Not to mention the jewels on offer and the incredible chance it is for us to really bolster the youth on our list beyond our wildest dreams. All in one go, instead of dragged out over years of low finishes.

Maybe Peter's just bluffing to get a better trade, but it still is REALLY worrying me. REALLY.

So how can we get a message through??????

[chef]

PG talking about just removing judas#2 from the leadership group and keeping him for 2015 is really worrying me.

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2014-10-10/new-captain-at-kennel-in-2015

[jazzadogs]

It shouldn't be his decision. Chris Grant and Jason McCartney should not be giving them any choice.

[Dancin' Douggy]

PG talking about just removing judas#2 from the leadership group and keeping him for 2015 is really worrying me.

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2014-10-10/new-captain-at-kennel-in-2015

It's nonsense and madness. How can we get through to him?

[soupman]

If we keep him we would make a truly terrible situation even worse. He would be booed by our own supporters. He has to go.

[Mofra]

I am hoping he is just posturing for trade value.

I don't expect Griffen to play for us next year.

[F'scary]

PG has to play a game of brinksmanship to get us the best deal possible for Griffen. That includes being prepared to risk no deal with GWS. I have not heard of a firm offer from GWS yet. I think they have said first round pick plus a player or second round pick. They have ruled out certain players. Their vagueness indicates to me that they are waiting until they get the expected pick 7 for Jaksch next week. I think, therefore, they may go down the line of pick 7 + a young tall (they have a complete surfeit of them) like McCarthy. We are going to want to pressure them into pick 4 instead of 7. I'd be prepared to take pick 4 + one of their high draft pick talls from the past two drafts. Need to check but I think there are two KPF's who were first rounders and have played only a few games to date.

[Bulldog4life]

PG is just playing a game of poker. We have only been dealt the first card so far. Be patient and don't blink.

[G-Mo77]

The way Gordon is talking he's staying which is a poor result if it happens. For me personally a clean slate would get me motivated again. I still love Ryan Griffen the player and he'll still give us great service if he stays but what he has done is irreparable and there is no way he should continue to play for us any further. The damage Macca took out of this would have been the same had he lined up as coach in 2015. He would have been the guy that drove our best player and captain out the door. By mid season he would have been gone. Our supporter base is small and fractured either way there is going to be backlash. Fans would be booing Macca and fans will be booing Griffen if he stays.

Clean slate is the only way forward out of this mess IMO. Take the picks, hit the draft and build.

[Dancin' Douggy]

PG is just playing a game of poker. We have only been dealt the first card so far. Be patient and don't blink.

I hope you're right B4L. I'm really feeling quite desperate about it. I don't want next season of footy to be a total wipe out for me.

[Bulldog4life]

I hope you're right B4L. I'm really feeling quite desperate about it. I don't want next season of footy to be a total wipe out for me.

I hope I am right too Douggy but Peter is very astute and I cannot see Griffen playing again for us but we have to give the impression to GWS that he is a required player and is not for trade....initially at least.

[chef]

PG is just playing a game of poker. We have only been dealt the first card so far. Be patient and don't blink.

The way he carried on about Judas yesterday I'm not so sure.

[bornadog]

My opinion, he won't be with us next year.

[Webby]

God I hope it's a poker face!!!

He couldn't possibly be that weak, could he? The only good thing that could come out of this week is Judas being gone for a strong trade. Anything else and the place will rot.

[Bulldog4life]

Griffen has already said via his management that he won't be coming back even though the coach has been sacked.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Back to the core reason for starting this thread.
Is there any way we can get a message of concern directly to Peter?
.......................Anyone?

I can't imagine he'd read an email just 'sent to the club'.

[F'scary]

DD, he is probably avoiding going out in public, leaving club by the bat cave and using his shoe phone only while he negotiates this one. Best leave him to it.

[Flamethrower]

Problem for us now is that GWS know that they have the upper hand - despite what Gordon says, the Bulldog members want Griff out. There is no way that they will give us pick 4 and 7 or a great player for him. At best we will be a 2nd round draft pick and a fringe hack.

Best to put Griff on the open market and hope St Kilda give us pick 1, Melbourne give us pick 2 or 3, or Brisbane give us pick 5, although I doubt any of them would without us throwing in one of our elite youngsters to sweeten the deal.

[Remi Moses]

I am hoping he is just posturing for trade value.

I don't expect Griffen to play for us next year.

I think you're right.
Peter I know you have a peek on here, but this is untenable

[Remi Moses]

Problem for us now is that GWS know that they have the upper hand - despite what Gordon says, the Bulldog members want Griff out. There is no way that they will give us pick 4 and 7 or a great player for him. At best we will be a 2nd round draft pick and a fringe hack.

Best to put Griff on the open market and hope St Kilda give us pick 1, Melbourne give us pick 2 or 3, or Brisbane give us pick 5, although I doubt any of them would without us throwing in one of our elite youngsters to sweeten the deal.

GWS have already put 7 on the table . That won't happen, and he'll get there

[Drunken Bum]

I'd like to get it across to PG that while the vast majority of us do not want Griffen at the club next year in any way shape or form, we also expect proper compensation from the AFEL's love child and that if they are not prepared to give us at minimum in the ballpark of 4 & 7 that we are quite happy to let Griff go pig shooting all next season and we'll take whatever free agency compo we get next year and GWS once again have failed to attract a high profile player to the club, #### the *****, we need to take a stand on this, we've been screwed to many times before to lie down here

[Dancin' Douggy]

I'd like to get it across to PG that while the vast majority of us do not want Griffen at the club next year in any way shape or form, we also expect proper compensation from the AFEL's love child and that if they are not prepared to give us at minimum in the ballpark of 4 & 7 that we are quite happy to let Griff go pig shooting all next season and we'll take whatever free agency compo we get next year and GWS once again have failed to attract a high profile player to the club, #### the *****, we need to take a stand on this, we've been screwed to many times before to lie down here

And pay him?

[G-Mo77]

Back to the core reason for starting this thread.
Is there any way we can get a message of concern directly to Peter?
.......................Anyone?

I can't imagine he'd read an email just 'sent to the club'.

I guess mass emails, phone calls would work. I saw a petition on BF somewhere, that may get to him. I think he knows our grievances. I just hope he takes them into considerations.

[Go_Dogs]

PG was online around 6.30am this morning having a read.

[Raw Toast]

Quiet happy with the poker face, we need to get the most we possibly can out of GWS - indeed, quite happy for us to take it to the brink, but never want to see Gryphon playing for the Western Bulldogs again.

That said, I'm also quite happy to spitefully consider him spending a season in the back pocket for Footscray though, and for it to go down to the wire until GWS are forced to pay up.

In essence, while I think getting rid of the coach now (and in this manner) was the wrong decision (better to have him on a short leash for next year than this embarrassing debacle), I still think we have the upper hand. GWS has promised Gryphon that they will get him over and they have to deliver.

PG and the rest have helped create this awful situation and now need to show they can walk the tightrope of getting rid of Gryphon while extracting maximum compensation that everyone in the AFL can see is in our favour!

If they succeed then hope will be rekindled soon enough, and the flames of the one true faith will burn again strongly. (I'm trying not to contemplate what it will mean if they fail.)

[1eyedog]

There is absolutely no chance that Griffen will be playing at the Bulldogs next year. Whether he is playing at GWS is anyones guess.

[firstdogonthemoon]

What if we didn't trade Ryan? Not saying we shouldn't, but what if GWS don't come to the party and rather than give him up for whatever, we force Griff to go through the seriously humiliating scenario of having to play out the last year of his contract. Why shouldn't he spend a year at a club he betrayed, eating humble pie every single week. It would be unpleasant for everyone, but it would also show that we are not to be stuffed around. It would certainly show all the other players that they shouldn't try it on because it won't work. No one would ever do it to us again.

The problem we have now is that any half decent player can have a tanty and bugger off to the club of their choice. While I don't think Griff should stay, there would be a clear upside to him staying. Also he is apparently quite a good footy player. We could even bung him in the VFL for the whole year and win another flag!

I'm not saying this is a good idea, but it is not a completely terrible idea.

Alright it is a terrible idea.

[LostDoggy]

And pay him?

The message to the rest of the players is worth double his wage.

[1eyedog]

There is no way that Ryan is going to honor the last year of his contract - not unless we take him to court over it. Ryan does not think PG's comment re. a legal obligation implies the club intends to take legal counsel on it. Of course this course of action would be ridiculous. If we can't get a trade the likely outcome is Griff sits out a year but he won't be playing with us.

[Dancin' Douggy]

What if we didn't trade Ryan? Not saying we shouldn't, but what if GWS don't come to the party and rather than give him up for whatever, we force Griff to go through the seriously humiliating scenario of having to play out the last year of his contract. Why shouldn't he spend a year at a club he betrayed, eating humble pie every single week. It would be unpleasant for everyone, but it would also show that we are not to be stuffed around. It would certainly show all the other players that they shouldn't try it on because it won't work. No one would ever do it to us again.

The problem we have now is that any half decent player can have a tanty and bugger off to the club of their choice. While I don't think Griff should stay, there would be a clear upside to him staying. Also he is apparently quite a good footy player. We could even bung him in the VFL for the whole year and win another flag!

I'm not saying this is a good idea, but it is not a completely terrible idea.

Alright it is a terrible idea.
It would be so unpleasant I wouldn't turn up to watch it. That's my nightmare scenario

[GVGjr]

My opinion, he won't be with us next year.
Where does that leave you?

[anfo27]

And pay him?

He doesn't get paid if he doesn't fulfil his end of the contract. He has to train and play to get paid so him saying he will sit out the year is hog wash. He needs to pay his mortgage like everyone else. GWS know they have to get this deal done no matter what cause if they don't there is no chance Ryan will go there as a free agent after being screwed by them.

They need a big name like Ryan and we have to be prepared for Ryan to sit out a year if we don't get what we want. It won't come down to that but we have to be prepared to walk away if we don't get what we want.

[bornadog]

Where does that leave you?

Nothing to do with me. I accept whatever decisions are made by the club. I am a club man first and foremost. Don't always agree with everything, but accept it.

[GVGjr]

Nothing to do with me. I accept whatever decisions are made by the club. I am a club man first and foremost. Don't always agree with everything, but accept it.

My mistake, I thought you had placed a condition on Griffen being traded

[bornadog]

My mistake, I thought you had placed a condition on Griffen being traded

What condition? You know me, I would never be one of those that would tear up their membership.

I would have been mightly pissed off if it was us shopping him around. This is a totally different situation when the player just doesn't want to be at the club.

[GVGjr]

What condition? You know me, I would never be one of those that would tear up their membership.

I would have been mightly pissed off if it was us shopping him around. This is a totally different situation when the player just doesn't want to be at the club.

Read this and read it wrong


If we traded Griff, that would be it for me.

[LostDoggy]

I believe (hope) that pgs desire to keep griff is just a ploy to extract maximum value. However, I've heard enough to doubt, if there is something i can sign to get the message through as a long time member that he must go then i will be in up to the elbows. Pm me for my email address if someone wants to bring this together.

[bornadog]

Read this and read it wrong

You are quoting me out of context GVGjr, that statement was pre all this and was about trading out a player just for picks. You don't let a player like Griffen,an A grade player go just like that. He is a top ten in the AFL when not injured.

You know that, so not sure why you now bring this up under completely different circumstances.

[GVGjr]

I believe (hope) that pgs desire to keep griff is just a ploy to extract maximum value. However, I've heard enough to doubt, if there is something i can sign to get the message through as a long time member that he must go then i will be in up to the elbows. Pm me for my email address if someone wants to bring this together.

I think it was a genuine position in the hope that with McCartney leaving Griffen would have a change of heart. Now that Griffen still isn't wanting to stay our position will change to the point we are prepared to listen to a good offer. Our fall back position is that we keep him for another season which should motivate GWS to pay a fair market value.

[GVGjr]

You are quoting me out of context GVGjr, that statement was pre all this and was about trading out a player just for picks. You don't let a player like Griffen,an A grade player go just like that. He is a top ten in the AFL when not injured.

You know that, so not sure why you now bring this up under completely different circumstances.

I've taken you at your word and I've twice said I got it wrong.
At the very least I would have thought you would be insisting we keep the "A Grader" to his contract.

[bornadog]

I've taken you at your word and I've twice said I got it wrong.
At the very least I would have thought you would be insisting we keep the "A Grader" to his contract.

I wish I knew the real inside story, but I will support whatever Peter says we should do. I love Griffen as a player, he is a proven performer in both home and away and finals. Unlike others, I am not turning on Griffen, I just think he as a person must have felt it just not going to work playing under Macca. Yes, he made a mistake in the way he has handled it. We all make mistakes.

Right now I feel gutted about the whole of the last 3 weeks, and infact the whole season as it turned out.

[FrediKanoute]

What if we didn't trade Ryan? Not saying we shouldn't, but what if GWS don't come to the party and rather than give him up for whatever, we force Griff to go through the seriously humiliating scenario of having to play out the last year of his contract. Why shouldn't he spend a year at a club he betrayed, eating humble pie every single week. It would be unpleasant for everyone, but it would also show that we are not to be stuffed around. It would certainly show all the other players that they shouldn't try it on because it won't work. No one would ever do it to us again.

The problem we have now is that any half decent player can have a tanty and bugger off to the club of their choice. While I don't think Griff should stay, there would be a clear upside to him staying. Also he is apparently quite a good footy player. We could even bung him in the VFL for the whole year and win another flag!

I'm not saying this is a good idea, but it is not a completely terrible idea.

Alright it is a terrible idea.

Fulham Football Club in the EPL did it with Steed Malbranque about 5-6 years ago. They made him play, or rather sit out, the first half of the season because he tried to get a move, and when they refused he had a hissy fit.

[Twodogs]

Problem for us now is that GWS know that they have the upper hand - despite what Gordon says, the Bulldog members want Griff out. There is no way that they will give us pick 4 and 7 or a great player for him. At best we will be a 2nd round draft pick and a fringe hack.

Best to put Griff on the open market and hope St Kilda give us pick 1, Melbourne give us pick 2 or 3, or Brisbane give us pick 5, although I doubt any of them would without us throwing in one of our elite youngsters to sweeten the deal.


That's why Gordon keeps insisting he's a required player. Anyway in the end it's not Gordon's call to make. He has as much say in this as any of us do.

[DOG GOD]

No way will griffen play for us next year. He's nominated GWS. They haven't given us a deal yet..Gordon has to play it like unless you pretty much give us what we want, griffen will not play for you in 2015. I think in the end, we will get what we want (and it won't be picks 4 and 7).

[Scorlibo]

I completely agree with everything Peter has said in his statements. Contracts need to be treated with respect. Taking a proud approach into the situation, saying that he categorically won't be playing for us next year, is in effect the same as releasing Ryan from his contract, and that's not something we want to do. We want to nurture this situation to the point where Ryan could quite easily return and play for us in 2015 if the right offer doesn't present itself. It's not just a bargaining tool, it's the best way to maximise returns whatever comes to be in the next two weeks.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I wish I knew the real inside story, but I will support whatever Peter says we should do. I love Griffen as a player, he is a proven performer in both home and away and finals. Unlike others, I am not turning on Griffen, I just think he as a person must have felt it just not going to work playing under Macca. Yes, he made a mistake in the way he has handled it. We all make mistakes.

Right now I feel gutted about the whole of the last 3 weeks, and infact the whole season as it turned out.

I understand your feelings Bornadog. And I want to make it clear from my measured thread starter. I don't hate Ryan Griffen.
I'm not taking pot shots at him or attacking his character. Clearly there were deep deep problems and he's had a gut full and he wants out. I just think we have to respect his decision for his sake but also for the clubs sake. To force him to stay would be counterproductive. And to do it out of spite or vengeance, or 'principals' (cough, AFL, cough) would only cheapen the club further.

When you've 'had a gut full' of a situation, or a relationship, there's really no going back. You can say all the right things , and mean it, in a mediation meeting, but when you walk out and go home the bad feelings just come creeping back in.

I think we all know the feeling. You just start hating the place. You hate the smell of the carpet. You hate even turning your car into the street. You hate the sound of someones hand opening a door, dreading what's coming next.
It becomes a physiological aversion to the environment. You just have to get the hell out of there.
The damage is done.
Griffen was an absolute hero of mine and I won't take any cheap pot shots at him. But he can't play for us again. This is an explosion, and unfortunately he's part of the wreckage. His dalliance with GWS is just the sealer.
Let him go and look to the future. Keep him and keep looking at the past

[bulldogtragic]

Did J2 say he's leaving to play finals too?

[hujsh]

Our position needs be be that at a minimum we would get more from trading Griff than we would with free agency. We would receive pick 7 from free agency this year so why do a favour to GWS and let him go? If they can't offer anything more substantial than pick 7 then he's not leaving. If he doesn't play next year and goes walkabout then we don't have to worry about paying him. We'll then get a 1st round compensation for him next year.

[F'scary]

What if we didn't trade Ryan? Not saying we shouldn't, but what if GWS don't come to the party and rather than give him up for whatever, we force Griff to go through the seriously humiliating scenario of having to play out the last year of his contract. Why shouldn't he spend a year at a club he betrayed, eating humble pie every single week. It would be unpleasant for everyone, but it would also show that we are not to be stuffed around. It would certainly show all the other players that they shouldn't try it on because it won't work. No one would ever do it to us again.

The problem we have now is that any half decent player can have a tanty and bugger off to the club of their choice. While I don't think Griff should stay, there would be a clear upside to him staying. Also he is apparently quite a good footy player. We could even bung him in the VFL for the whole year and win another flag!

I'm not saying this is a good idea, but it is not a completely terrible idea.

Alright it is a terrible idea.

He'd stand out of the game rather than endure that.

[bulldogtragic]

He'd stand out of the game rather than endure that.

Say we finish 16th next year, we'd get pick 4 compo easily still based on the contract offered to him. Win-win.

[josie]

PG was online around 6.30am this morning having a read.

Thanks Griffen - I trust you (despite your WOOF moniker !!). :rolleyes:

I'd thought of starting a petition or having delegation meet at WO. As although I think it's most likely BAD's, Remi Moses's take on this is correct, a part of me is thinking what if we are not correct?. However if PG actually skims WOOF then not worth it.

I have written an email to Club expressing my concerns after Macca's resignation including my wish that Griffen be traded. I'm hoping an overall consensus/summary of the numerous communications from members are being analysed and fed up the chain.

[Remi Moses]

Peter, Simon and Jason
4 and 7 make it happen. Let him go !

[Twodogs]

Peter, Simon and Jason
4 and 7 make it happen. Let him go !


I think it's doable but we have to be prepared to take Griff back. That has to be our end game because it keeps the pressure on them to get the deal done. We have to use the fact we have a contract to our advantage. It's our only bargaining chip. And the only way we can do that is act like he's our player and act like we are happy to let him play next year.

My take anyway.

[josie]

Sorry for off topic post - Does it say something about our passion for this Club that a number of us are writing posts after midnight? Or was it those two coffees I had earlier today....

I'm dreaming of pick 4 and the gun tall forward this might deliver.

[Twodogs]

I meant to say that's why Gordon has been saying the placatory things he has been saying. I think we heard the real Peter Gordon stance on Thursday.

[Remi Moses]

I think it's doable but we have to be prepared to take Griff back. That has to be our end game because it keeps the pressure on them to get the deal done. We have to use the fact we have a contract to our advantage. It's our only bargaining chip. And the only way we can do that is act like he's our player and act like we are happy to let him play next year.

My take anyway.
I hope it's posturing, because he cannot come back

[1eyedog]

I hope it's posturing, because he cannot come back

I would be astounded if PG thought that Griffen could in any way play at the club next year.

[Webby]

I would be astounded if PG thought that Griffen could in any way play at the club next year.

I know two things about Peter Gordon:

1. He's a bright man
2. He'd probably do anything for the club (and has in the past)

Therefore I'm hopeful that he's "taking a bullet" for the club in a very shrewd way by coming across as such a weak doofus on Friday. I hope he's just painting a perception that he would be prepared to publicly eat humble pie in order to have Griffen remain at the club. Thus strengthening our negotiating position.

I've found myself thinking about it quite a bit over the past 36 hours. I think this is the only logical scenario for such a bright guy. So I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Get us the best deal possible Peter. Make the bastards pay. But please, make sure members are not subjected to having to watch R Griffen running around in a R,W&B guernsey next year....

... And a couple of his South Australian colleagues for that matter.... We need to clear the stink and start afresh. So I think we should probably just trust PG. He's certainly proven himself to be quite reliable in the past!

[westdog54]

I for one would rather have Griff held to his contract rather than accept anything less than pick 4 and s player of sufficient quality.

He can then have the option of sitting out of football altogether or a season of VFL. We then take whatever compensation he is worth in 12 months time.

Spiteful? Maybe. But I won't do any favours to s player who says he is happy with a resolution and then hoes and negotiates with another club without another word.

[KT31]

I don't think for a minute PG has any interest in letting him go, that said, (maybe more out of hope than anything) I think that sanity will prevail and at the end off the day we will see reason and come to an agreement with GWS.
We really have only four days to get the recruiting train back on the track and show some semblance we still know what it takes to be an AFL standard club.

[anfo27]

Peter, Simon and Jason
4 and 7 make it happen. Let him go !

Remi you don't honestly think that this is possible do you? No chance we get picks 4 and 7, if we do I will be doing cartwheels.

[chef]

Remi you don't honestly think that this is possible do you? No chance we get picks 4 and 7, if we do I will be doing cartwheels.

Yep, he's just not worth 4 & 7.

28 year old with a bad back and not wanting to be a leader, I just don't see him being worth that much.

[josie]

GWS need a marquee player and having promised to get deal done and will have mud over their face if they do not get their man. Imagine other gun, close to end of contract players thinking twice about heading to GWS if this deal does not eventuate.

They do not need more low draft picks.

I'm therefore starting to think more and more that 4 & possibly 7 is a real option, or 4 & one of their good talls, or 4 & one of their average players + a second round pick.

P.S. Would they be interested in taking Coons and/or Minson as well as Griffen? The cache of having a brownlow medallist in their ranks might be worth something to them.

[bulldogtragic]

GWS need a marquee player and having promised to get deal done and will have mud over their face if they do not get their man. Imagine other gun, close to end of contract players thinking twice about heading to GWS if this deal does not eventuate.

They do not need more low draft picks.

I'm therefore starting to think more and more that 4 & possibly 7 is a real option, or 4 & one of their good talls, or 4 & one of their average players + a second round pick.

P.S. Would they be interested in taking Coons and/or Minson as well as Griffen? The cache of having a brownlow medallist in their ranks might be worth something to them.

I think they'd love Minson. Giles has asked for a trade. Minno and Mummy are two very big seasoned rucks, teams with slight rucks like ours would be would get monstered. If that got us 4, 7 (or elite kid) and Giles it would be a strong offer but GWS would be massively better.

I don't think we'll do better than pick 50 for Coons. Best hope is a pick upgrade to a contender probably second round (North's 33 for our 41). That's just about a win for us with where he seems at.

[hujsh]

I think they'd love Minson. Giles has asked for a trade. Minno and Mummy are two very big seasoned rucks, teams with slight rucks like ours would be would get monstered. If that got us 4, 7 (or elite kid) and Giles it would be a strong offer but GWS would be massively better.

I don't think we'll do better than pick 50 for Coons. Best hope is a pick upgrade to a contender probably second round (North's 33 for our 41). That's just about a win for us with where he seems at.

Would Minson make them that much better? He'd presumably be second ruck to Mummy and he was never great at that.

[bulldogtragic]

Would Minson make them that much better? He'd presumably be second ruck to Mummy and he was never great at that.

I think Minson being freed up a little will bounce more into some form. I quite like Mumford resting forward too. Mumford was the first real big man they've had at the contest and they thrived. Giles and resting rucks didn't do the job for them, or at least that's how i saw it. It would give GWS a very good ruck combo for 4-5 years, if they think that's their window then Minson for Giles plus some extra to bump up in the Griffen trade is a net win for them. We need a young ruckman whose not too raw, so that's good and if that upped the deal of Griffen from pick 4 to include pick 7 for 25 say, then my guess says its about right.

[Mofra]

I felt Giles was better forward than Mummy, and I think an r2 type would provide better value for us than a genuine no 1 ruck (which is what Minson & Campbell are).

Then again we can put Roughy forward as r2 and find a key defender from somewhere or hope like god that out of Talia, Roberts, Austin & Morris we can find 3 of them in form at any one time to form our defensive talls.