2015 Playing List

[GVGjr]

I thought it might be a good idea to have a look at our playing list now that the trading and recruitment for the season ahead has been completed. Disclaimer time. Remember these are my rankings and I'm sure many will disagree with them but I don't think it will change the bigger picture too much. The data I used might also not be 100% accurate but it will be very close.

I guess it's no real surprise to people but unless some players step up next year it's going to be a tough one and I'd say tougher than last season.

Experience and Age Profile
This is a real concern as we have just 10 players on our list over the age of 25. We could potentially lose 4 of the over 29's at the end of the 2015 season but are more likely to lose 2 of them in Goodes and Boyd. We would be hoping that Minson, Murphy and Morris will carry on into 2016.
In the 25 to 29 bracket I think Grant and Dickson might be the most vulnerable.



Age

Games played

Players

Average



29+

897

5

179.40



25 to 29

369

5

73.80



21 to 25

489

19

25.74



18 to 21

132

15

8.80



Total

1887

44

42.89




We have just 5 players that have played 100 games or more and we are likely to lose Boyd from that group at the end of the 2015. Crameri might be able to get to the 100 game mark by the end of the season but needs 21 games to do so. Liberatore might fall a game or two short.

The emphasis is clearly on developing the younger players on the list. The challenge for the match committee will be to keep a number of them on an upward trend and balancing the development they need.

Player Quality
We often hear about how many A grade talent teams have and a look at ours doesn't bode well for a solid 2015 season.
Because of our young list I've had to rank players just a little bit on potential so if anything it probably inflates it.
Of a concern is that only 2 players in the 21 to 25 year age bracket can be regarded as A grade talent and to be honest I have ranked Dahlhaus there and he might not deserve it.
We do however, have a great list of youngsters.



Age

A

B

C



29+

1

3

1



25 to 29

0

3

2



21 to 25

2

3

14



18 to 21

4

3

8



Total

7

12

25




Players and Positions
The modern game demands flexible players so it's difficult to place players in exactly the right category but I've broken up the category rankings on where I think players are best suited to. I've allocated a ruck men like Minson in the midfielder category.
A number of our defenders and forwards will take turns in the midfield.



Age

Defenders

Midfielders

Forwards



29+

3

2

0



25 to 29

1

1

3



21 to 25

9

6

4



18 to 21

3

5

7



Total

16

14

14




Some other quick observations:

We have 17 players with less than 10 games of experience
We have 6 players shorter than 180cm
We have 12 players between 184cm and 180cm

The experienced players we recruited from other teams in Boyd, Biggs, Hamling and Kelly bring in just 15 games of AFL experience.
A player we lost in Jason Tutt had played 26 senior games.

I have some more list management observations I will add in the coming days but thought this might be a good kick starter.

[Remi Moses]

Thanks G.
Good thing will be is that Luke B will get some time, and I think anybody with half a brain realises next year is going to be painful from a win loss scenario.
Champion Data had us having the second least experienced team per games played.
I actually feel more comfortable in our future however than I was 12 months ago

[boydogs]

They're the sort of numbers that make you re-rookie Goodes to avoid doing a Melbourne

[bornadog]

I think our list is more balanced than it has been for a long time although the 25 to 29 is still short at least three more players and there are some doubts on the players already in that age bracket. Another couple of years and the balance should be right.

[Twodogs]

I think if you are going to have a list unbalance its better to have too many players at the lower end than too many at the older end of the scale. That way as younger players move up into the next age scale we can replace them by drafting and maintain our age scale.

[BulldogBelle]

Great post GVGjr.

We will definetly have some short term pain but the future is bright.

[F'scary]

GVGjr, I am concerned at the number of C grade evaluations of the 2 younger age brackets. I would like to see the players identified to understand and evaluate the position you have taken. Particularly, since you have evaluated on potential.

[GVGjr]

GVGjr, I am concerned at the number of C grade evaluations of the 2 younger age brackets. I would like to see the players identified to understand and evaluate the position you have taken. Particularly, since you have evaluated on potential.

I tried to stay away from detailing individual rankings because it distracts from the point of the thread. People will debate or nitpick the ratings more that the bigger list management picture which was the point of the thread that I want to discuss.
I'd encourage you to cast an eye over the playing list and see if you have a massive difference in the player rankings?
For example, you might calculate 12 C graders in the 21 to 25 age bracket instead of my 14 which is no big deal. If you have 6 C Graders to my 14 then we probably do need to discuss it.

By the way, I ranked all draftees from this years drafts as C Graders. None of them are first round picks and I haven't counted on any of them to play enough senior football next season to get a B grade rating. I'd be very happy if that occurs though.

To assist, the players I rated as A Grades were Minson, Liberatore, Dahlhaus, Stringer, Macrae, Bontempelli and T.Boyd.
Minson and Dahlhaus are probably not genuine A grade players and Stringer, Macrae, Bontempelli and Boyd have their best football in front of them and have received rankings on their potential. Liberatore is a genuine A grade talent.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I tried to stay away from detailing individual rankings because it distracts from the point of the thread. People will debate or nitpick the ratings more that the bigger list management picture which was the point of the thread that I want to discuss.
I'd encourage you to cast an eye over the playing list and see if you have a massive difference in the player rankings?
For example, you might calculate 12 C graders in the 21 to 25 age bracket instead of my 14 which is no big deal. If you have 6 C Graders to my 14 then we probably do need to discuss it.

By the way, I ranked all draftees from this years drafts as C Graders. None of them are first round picks and I haven't counted on any of them to play enough senior football next season to get a B grade rating. I'd be very happy if that occurs though.

To assist, the players I rated as A Grades were Minson, Liberatore, Dahlhaus, Stringer, Macrae, Bontempelli and T.Boyd.
Minson and Dahlhaus are probably not genuine A grade players and Stringer, Macrae, Bontempelli and Boyd have their best football in front of them and have received rankings on their potential. Liberatore is a genuine A grade talent.

Great thread GVGjr

Its very insightful analysis, and presents what lots of us would have suspected - we have a lot of youngsters and fringe players we are going to be playing and finding out if they can turn into legit contributors.

The other interesting thing is we don't have a single A-grader who plays in the back line.

The second is that our midfield A graders are going to have to deal with more tagging than ever before due to the absence of Griffin.

I feel the opposite to others on the losses of Cooney and Higgins - after re-watching a lot of game tapes, the ability of those two to get to, and kick to the right spots will be sorely missed - they linked up a lot of our play and gave us run. Im not saying we should have kept them, I think they had to go, but we will miss them, but the flip side is that opportunities are there for playmakers.

[GVGjr]

Its very insightful analysis, and presents what lots of us would have suspected - we have a lot of youngsters and fringe players we are going to be playing and finding out if they can turn into legit contributors.


It's all about development isn't it? Perhaps that is why Beveridge was chosen as the coach. What ever way we look at it our development coaches will be focusing on improving as many of these young men as they can.



The other interesting thing is we don't have a single A-grader who plays in the back line.

The second is that our midfield A graders are going to have to deal with more tagging than ever before due to the absence of Griffin.


On the first point, I've done some analysis on the players by the 3 positions and yes there is no defenders I regarded as A grade talent. We might be happy to get 6 or 8 of them up to the B grade standard though.
It probably makes sense to have the A Graders around the middle of the ground or up forward.

On the second, Liberatore will cop the hard tag most weeks now. We have to to look at the way that Carlton protected Marc Murphy when we played them Murphy (http://woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?13612-What-could-we-learn-from-the-Season) and do that to help Liberatore.



I feel the opposite to others on the losses of Cooney and Higgins - after re-watching a lot of game tapes, the ability of those two to get to, and kick to the right spots will be sorely missed - they linked up a lot of our play and gave us run. Im not saying we should have kept them, I think they had to go, but we will miss them, but the flip side is that opportunities are there for playmakers.


There will certainly be plenty of opportunities for the players who grasp their chances.

[bornadog]

I feel the opposite to others on the losses of Cooney and Higgins - after re-watching a lot of game tapes, the ability of those two to get to, and kick to the right spots will be sorely missed - they linked up a lot of our play and gave us run. Im not saying we should have kept them, I think they had to go, but we will miss them, but the flip side is that opportunities are there for playmakers.

I agree with you and add in Griffen and these players just dominated the use of the ball. It will take awhile to fill the gap, but we will get there.

I think Libba needs to really work on his game when he is being tagged. He really didn't cope that well this year when he was tagged.

[stefoid]

Cant seeing us delisting Matty Boyd if he is still fit. He is a machine and a ball magnet. Just needs more skill around him.

The older players that are left have been proven to be durable. evolution in action, I guess. Boyd, Morris and Murph may be around for a few seasons yet, without an unlucky knee or similar.

People say Lonergon was madness, but there would have been nothing wrong with an experienced, quality defender helping to hold the backline together for the next three years.

That analysis screams that we need to bring in a matureish key position player of at least B grade at the next trade period.

Will be pretty interesting to necro this thread in 12 months time and see the difference.

[Go_Dogs]

Very interesting thread.

It appears our balance, overall, for defenders, midfielders and forwards is about right - but we still lack some elite quality in the KP stocks at both ends and some skilful running players in the back half.

We might be able to address those issues from our current list, but there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding the fate of most who are in line for these roles.

If we can continue to draft well and make astute trades, we can now build a sustainable list though, which should provide the foundation for longer term success and perhaps avoid the need to bottom out in the future.

[1eyedog]

Great thread. Looking at all those numbers it feels like we are 1-2 years into a rebuild which is probably about right. It's a shame we didn't develop the way everyone wanted under Macca but I am hopeful we learnt some useful lessons during his tenure. We seem to have an even age spread across all positions and some very, very good youngsters but when you compare all that to a game average across the club of 42.89 it suggests that while we will see some very good football from our young talent we will struggle both late in games and undoubtedly later in the season as well.

We simply have to bide our time and get games into our talented youngsters.

[GVGjr]

If we assume Matthew Boyd goes at the end of 2015 then we will have just 4 players who have played 100 senior games.
That is a very small number. If somehow Murphy and/or Morris go then that list is further reduced.

If I project out by two years (end of 2016) we still might only have 6 players with more than 100 senior games experience.
That assumes both Murphy and Morris have retired and Minson and Picken are still performing well. By the end of 2016 we should have Minson, Picken, Liberatore, Crameri, Roughead and Dahlhaus with more than 100 senior games. Easton Wood could be there and so could Jarrad Grant if he has 2 seasons of senior football which I wouldn't bet on him playing 38 games in seasons.
Wood might be a 70/30 chance to get there as he needs 35 over that same time frame.

I think we will need to recruit some experienced players in the next 2 years to give us a better balance.

Development of the younger group is the key.

[Remi Moses]

The expansion clubs have hurt us immensily

[jeemak]

If we assume Matthew Boyd goes at the end of 2015 then we will have just 4 players who have played 100 senior games.
That is a very small number. If somehow Murphy and/or Morris go then that list is further reduced.

If I project out by two years (end of 2016) we still might only have 6 players with more than 100 senior games experience.
That assumes both Murphy and Morris have retired and Minson and Picken are still performing well. By the end of 2016 we should have Minson, Picken, Liberatore, Crameri, Roughead and Dahlhaus with more than 100 senior games. Easton Wood could be there and so could Jarrad Grant if he has 2 seasons of senior football which I wouldn't bet on him playing 38 games in seasons.
Wood might be a 70/30 chance to get there as he needs 35 over that same time frame.

I think we will need to recruit some experienced players in the next 2 years to give us a better balance.

Development of the younger group is the key.

Excellent thread and thanks for going to the effort.

This most recent post probably provides some insight into why we have been comfortable with drafting similar players with our non-first round selections and beefing up our midfield/forward stocks. Some these players might to be used to secure mature talent via trade in the coming two or three post-seasons, or be on-hand to fill the void of one or two lean draft periods where second and third round selections are traded away for mature players.

When you take this into account and understand that at least one third of them won't make the grade, we won't have the glut of similar players some of us are bemoaning at present.

[lemmon]

Agree we need some mature quality and the recruitment of Crameri has been a fairly street smart get in addressing that hole but are we prepared to give up one of the quality kids to grab a decent 27 or 28 year old in a position we are short of? We have a plethora of the smallish mid/half forwards on the list as potential bargaining chips so if a good key position player came up at the end of next year are we prepared to sacrifice 10 years of Hrovat or Hunter for a 50-100 game stop gap? I think it would definitely have to be looked at

[LostDoggy]

http://www.footyjunkie.com.au/features/how-experienced-is-your-club-in-2014/

This is a very interesting observation/analysis made at the start of 2014. Read the comments below the stats. Teams such as Fremantle and Port seem to buck trends shown by other teams in the age/experience = challenger status from 2013-2014

[1eyedog]

The expansion clubs have hurt us immensily

They have in the past and we will miss Harbrow and Ward especially in 2-3 years time when we are having a crack. But you would also have to admit that this year was the first time we have leveraged a player we would never have had the opportunity to get if it wasn't for the expansion teams. We would have missed out on Boyd anyway and Griffin left for internal reasons rather than to go specifically to GWS (he even said he would walk away from the game on numerous occasions), so they aren't to blame. We lost Ward but we got Macrae and we lost Harbrow and selected Sherman- a big mistake on our behalf we should have used that one better. We got the same compensation for Harbrow as Adelaide did for Bock and Brisbane got for Rischitelli who was their reigning B&F.

We are hurting now because Ward and Harbrow would be so important to us now but really we've lost them and gained Macrae and Boyd (Griffin aside) and an end of first round compensation pick that we stuffed up. It may seem that we have lost out in the moment but really we are in a position to compete directly with both the expansion clubs in 2-3 years time. Not many other clubs if any at all will be able to say that in a few years time. In fact, I forsee us being the strongest of the Victorian clubs in a few years.

[KT31]

They have in the past and we will miss Harbrow and Ward especially in 2-3 years time when we are having a crack. But you would also have to admit that this year was the first time we have leveraged a player we would never have had the opportunity to get if it wasn't for the expansion teams. We would have missed out on Boyd anyway and Griffin left for internal reasons rather than to go specifically to GWS (he even said he would walk away from the game on numerous occasions), so they aren't to blame. We lost Ward but we got Macrae and we lost Harbrow and selected Sherman- a big mistake on our behalf we should have used that one better. We got the same compensation for Harbrow as Adelaide did for Bock and Brisbane got for Rischitelli who was their reigning B&F.

We are hurting now because Ward and Harbrow would be so important to us now but really we've lost them and gained Macrae and Boyd (Griffin aside) and an end of first round compensation pick that we stuffed up. It may seem that we have lost out in the moment but really we are in a position to compete directly with both the expansion clubs in 2-3 years time. Not many other clubs if any at all will be able to say that in a few years time. In fact, I forsee us being the strongest of the Victorian clubs in a few years.

Nice post 1ed.

[Remi Moses]

They have in the past and we will miss Harbrow and Ward especially in 2-3 years time when we are having a crack. But you would also have to admit that this year was the first time we have leveraged a player we would never have had the opportunity to get if it wasn't for the expansion teams. We would have missed out on Boyd anyway and Griffin left for internal reasons rather than to go specifically to GWS (he even said he would walk away from the game on numerous occasions), so they aren't to blame. We lost Ward but we got Macrae and we lost Harbrow and selected Sherman- a big mistake on our behalf we should have used that one better. We got the same compensation for Harbrow as Adelaide did for Bock and Brisbane got for Rischitelli who was their reigning B&F.

We are hurting now because Ward and Harbrow would be so important to us now but really we've lost them and gained Macrae and Boyd (Griffin aside) and an end of first round compensation pick that we stuffed up. It may seem that we have lost out in the moment but really we are in a position to compete directly with both the expansion clubs in 2-3 years time. Not many other clubs if any at all will be able to say that in a few years time. In fact, I forsee us being the strongest of the Victorian clubs in a few years.

It's hurt us in the now and effected our draft thinking as well, with the draft being pilliged by the new franchises

[1eyedog]

It's hurt us in the now and effected our draft thinking as well, with the draft being pilliged by the new franchises

But it's affected every team and how they approach the draft not just ours. Even if Harbrow and Ward were playing at our club in 2015 do you think they would significantly alter where we will finish on the ladder? Would having Ward and Harbrow in 2012-2014 have changed anything other than to make us slightly more competitive? Would we have played finals with them?

We've prized out Boyd, Macrae and a first round selection in our dealings with the franchises and lost Griffin, Harbrow and Ward. Boyd for Griffin, Macrae for Ward and a 1st round compensation for Harbrow. They've hit us hard no doubt but we've received some quality the other way.

[Rocco Jones]

We've prized out Boyd, Macrae and a first round selection in our dealings with the franchises and lost Griffin, Harbrow and Ward. Boyd for Griffin, Macrae for Ward and a 1st round compensation for Harbrow. They've hit us hard no doubt but we've received some quality the other way.

Basically it's been

IN- T.Boyd, Macrae, Sherman
OUT- Griffin, Ward, Harbrow, Pick 6

[Twodogs]

And they took Sam Reid and gave us pick twenty something for him. What did we do with that pick?

[Remi Moses]

And they took Sam Reid and gave us pick twenty something for him. What did we do with that pick?

Wasn't it pick 50 or 60 odd?
Can't believe we got anything for Reid

[bornadog]

Wasn't it pick 50 or 60 odd?
Can't believe we got anything for Reid

Yeah more like 120 :D

[Remi Moses]

But it's affected every team and how they approach the draft not just ours. Even if Harbrow and Ward were playing at our club in 2015 do you think they would significantly alter where we will finish on the ladder? Would having Ward and Harbrow in 2012-2014 have changed anything other than to make us slightly more competitive? Would we have played finals with them?

We've prized out Boyd, Macrae and a first round selection in our dealings with the franchises and lost Griffin, Harbrow and Ward. Boyd for Griffin, Macrae for Ward and a 1st round compensation for Harbrow. They've hit us hard no doubt but we've received some quality the other way.

Im not trying to argue the toss over this , but in our redevelopment cycle we got hit by a recruiting Tsunami.
They've had the winning lotto ticket 10 times over. It's onwards and upwards from here however

[Axe Man]

And they took Sam Reid and gave us pick twenty something for him. What did we do with that pick?

GWS didn't give us anything for Sam Reid. We agreed to let him go as a second uncontracted player and the AFL gave us a third round selection as compensation. We held onto that pick for a year and used it in the 2012 draft on Josh Prudden (ended up being pick 50).

[hujsh]

But it's affected every team and how they approach the draft not just ours. Even if Harbrow and Ward were playing at our club in 2015 do you think they would significantly alter where we will finish on the ladder? Would having Ward and Harbrow in 2012-2014 have changed anything other than to make us slightly more competitive? Would we have played finals with them?

We've prized out Boyd, Macrae and a first round selection in our dealings with the franchises and lost Griffin, Harbrow and Ward. Boyd for Griffin, Macrae for Ward and a 1st round compensation for Harbrow. They've hit us hard no doubt but we've received some quality the other way.

Surely the impact on a team like ours, or similar teams, rebuilding down the bottom of the ladder can't be compared to a team like the Hawks or Geelong.

[GVGjr]

How do we best develop the playing list? Do we target a few guys and give them an extended rub to prove their worth or do we try and give as many players we can some senior experience?
I think Hrovat, Biggs, Darley, Talia, Hamling and Jong could be the players we try and fast track

[F'scary]

How do we best develop the playing list? Do we target a few guys and give them an extended rub to prove their worth or do we try and give as many players we can some senior experience?
I think Hrovat, Biggs, Darley, Talia, Hamling and Jong could be the players we try and fast track

Hrovat is going along quite nicely and is first 18 now. So I don't think he is part of the group you are identifying. It is the others you name along with Redpath, Fuller, Dickson, Ayce Cordy and Tom Campbell that should get an extended run wherever it is feasible because they are now old enough and fit enough for the seniors. That's why I think this year is their year for concentrated development in the first 22. Having said this, my recent attempt at picking our best 22 line up, only included Talia from this group. But I presume there will be plenty of opportunities, with injuries, form losses, suspensions, etc, for some of these blokes to get an extend run where they are persisted with. Probably Jong and Talia are the two most likely to get the chance. Then one of Roberts or Redpath or Hamling and one of Darley, Biggs or Fuller if a back possie opens up for a while. Of course, if there are lots of injuries, suspensions and form losses, they might all get extended runs in the firsts.

Our latest draftees and Honeychurch are too raw and under-developed to get more than cameos (for some of them) in 2015.

[1eyedog]

How do we best develop the playing list? Do we target a few guys and give them an extended rub to prove their worth or do we try and give as many players we can some senior experience?
I think Hrovat, Biggs, Darley, Talia, Hamling and Jong could be the players we try and fast track

As far as the cusp players are concerned it all has to do with how they perform in the VFL proving ground. I think we'll target one of Talia, Roberts or Hamling, we really have no choice here and out of the others Hrovat seems the logical choice and Jong really cut his teeth in last years VFL finals.

[LostDoggy]

Surely the impact on a team like ours, or similar teams, rebuilding down the bottom of the ladder can't be compared to a team like the Hawks or Geelong.


Absolutely. At the same time the draft was compromised by GWS and GC and we were rebuilding, our club was targeted and we lost players. So a double hit. The good teams didn't lose any.

Then while the draft was compromised, at the same time FA was introduced which artificially maintained the top clubs' position at the top of the ladder while hammering lower clubs (so Melb lose Frawley and Rivers, we lose Lake who used FA pressure to force a trade, Saints lose Goddard, the outlier being Hawks who lost Buddy but not to a lower club, but to Sydney another top club, Carlton lose Waite, we lose Higgins, the cycle continues.

FA in its current form is a bigger cancer than the expansion clubs. Until the top 4 clubs are excluded from FA or forced to trade picks instead of FA comp, it will continue to break the normal 'boom bust' cycle (salary cap doesn't work as players have worked out taking a hit on salary to play in a premiership only enhances their career prospects post footy as a 'premiership star'.)

[boydogs]

And they took Sam Reid and gave us pick twenty something for him. What did we do with that pick?

It was 50, used on Prudden

[kruder]

Fantastic initial post which really puts things into perspective.

If Luke can get us to win the same amount of games as this year it would be an amazing feat. I'm glad we got rid of a lot of deadwood and list cloggers but it does ensure the next 2 years are going to be really difficult. I was always concerned Macca wouldn't last the development faze and I have the same concerns for Luke as we are still well and truly entench in it.

Next year although exciting with all of our junior talent could be one of our most diffuclt in a long long time, particularly in the win/loss and points against columns. Hopefully we can all stay calm and think big picture as we are going to need to.

[Remi Moses]

I just hope to god that the people running the club realise there might be some more pain coming our way.

[Remi Moses]

Excellent dissections on here . Just wonder when we will target a F/A?

[GVGjr]

I'm glad we got rid of a lot of deadwood and list cloggers but it does ensure the next 2 years are going to be really difficult. I was always concerned Macca wouldn't last the development faze and I have the same concerns for Luke as we are still well and truly entench in it.

Next year although exciting with all of our junior talent could be one of our most diffuclt in a long long time, particularly in the win/loss and points against columns. Hopefully we can all stay calm and think big picture as we are going to need to.

I'm not a fan of players being referred to as list cloggers but that being said given the age of our playing list how can we be sure we now have improved the quality of players on the playing list?
They might be younger but I'm not sure the number of players who may not measure up changes no matter what a club does.
With a static number of 44 listed players and only so many opportunities the age profile has changed but there will still be a lot of players that fall short.

[GVGjr]

I just hope to god that the people running the club realise there might be some more pain coming our way.

They would be perfectly clear on where we are. We focused on youth because we know exactly where we are and we are looking at the longer term.

[1eyedog]

Surely the impact on a team like ours, or similar teams, rebuilding down the bottom of the ladder can't be compared to a team like the Hawks or Geelong.


Absolutely. At the same time the draft was compromised by GWS and GC and we were rebuilding, our club was targeted and we lost players. So a double hit. The good teams didn't lose any.

Then while the draft was compromised, at the same time FA was introduced which artificially maintained the top clubs' position at the top of the ladder while hammering lower clubs (so Melb lose Frawley and Rivers, we lose Lake who used FA pressure to force a trade, Saints lose Goddard, the outlier being Hawks who lost Buddy but not to a lower club, but to Sydney another top club, Carlton lose Waite, we lose Higgins, the cycle continues.

FA in its current form is a bigger cancer than the expansion clubs. Until the top 4 clubs are excluded from FA or forced to trade picks instead of FA comp, it will continue to break the normal 'boom bust' cycle (salary cap doesn't work as players have worked out taking a hit on salary to play in a premiership only enhances their career prospects post footy as a 'premiership star'.)

They are both excellent points but in a general sense, with the exception of Sherman, I am happy with the way we have drafted at the top since the expansion teams have come online. In terms of good teams losing players it's true that the best team lost the best player in Ablett, Collingwood also lost Shaw last year, it's happening to others as well.

I guess I pose this more as a question because I am naive to how FA will affect the lower placed teams into the future but my view is that while there is absolutely no question that FA assist the top 4 sides is it really such a bad thing? A team like us trade a player like Higgins to a top 4 team like North for a good pick and we secure a good young player who will be 23-24 when we are consistently playing finals football again. Higgins will be 30 in 3 years. It's a good result for us and a good result for Higgins.

Unlike others I don't see FA as being the devil that everyone makes out it is. Teams at the bottom lose and if they draft and develop well they start winning games and making the finals and when that happens they start attracting FA. Conversely when was the last time a team outside the top 4 won the flag before FA anyway? Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney are exceptions at the top because they have absolute star 10 year players who are still performing. Hawthorn minus Lake, Geelong minus Rivers are still top 4 sides. A players leaves under FA because he knows that he won't play finals football again with the team he is with (Rivers, Frawley, Waite, Higgins). I don't think us losing Higgins and Cooney have hammered us?

In terms of players thinking about how they are perceived after they become premiership players I have no idea about this suffice to say that I would say that 90+% of players would prefer to be one club players rather than request a trade in their 11th hour for a premiership, although there are certainly exceptions to this rule. I know people feel very strongly about FA so I am open to ridicule on this :)

[FrediKanoute]

Excellent dissections on here . Just wonder when we will target a F/A?

Not sure on that, but I reckon we wont make the same mistake we made in 2008-10 in topping up with BBB a year too late.

I do think though we will chase another of the expansion club players next year and more than likely a mid to add that bit of class to the grunt we have. Maybe a Martin? or a Jaeger? Don't be surprised if we chase Scully (or someone like him) as well. Boyd opened the door. There will be more guys like him who just don't want to be on the GC or Sydney.

[FrediKanoute]

I'm not a fan of players being referred to as list cloggers but that being said given the age of our playing list how can we be sure we now have improved the quality of players on the playing list?
They might be younger but I'm not sure the number of players who may not measure up changes no matter what a club does.
With a static number of 44 listed players and only so many opportunities the age profile has changed but there will still be a lot of players that fall short.

Agreed. On paper we shipped out 3 first round draft picks (Griffin, Higgins and Cooney) and replaced them with Tom Boyd and a host of mid to late round selections. Not a hope we will be as good as last year. Our only hope is if Bevo can instil a team first mentality and the sum of our parts creates something great.

[always right]

The next two years are critical for us. In that time we need to become a club that our young players want to stay at because they believe it will be successful in their time. Just as we targeted Tom Boyd, others will target Bonts, Stringer and MaCrae in a similar vein. Whilst Bonts and Stringer make all the right noises at the moment, you could have said the same about Griffon.

[1eyedog]

I'm not a fan of players being referred to as list cloggers but that being said given the age of our playing list how can we be sure we now have improved the quality of players on the playing list?
They might be younger but I'm not sure the number of players who may not measure up changes no matter what a club does.
With a static number of 44 listed players and only so many opportunities the age profile has changed but there will still be a lot of players that fall short.

Yeah that's right but at least we are now all starting at the start of the journey and we are in a better position to list manage players across a similar age profile moving forward.

We'll still lose Boyd, Murph and Morris but we have opened up the Griffin, Cooney and Higgins spots enabling us to provide three young players with an opportunity to see if they can cut the mustard. At least we are now in a position to give a number of younger players a go to see if they will make it and if they can't then at least we will find out much sooner than we otherwise would with Griffin, Cooney and Higgins still on the list.

[kruder]

I'm not a fan of players being referred to as list cloggers but that being said given the age of our playing list how can we be sure we now have improved the quality of players on the playing list?
They might be younger but I'm not sure the number of players who may not measure up changes no matter what a club does.
With a static number of 44 listed players and only so many opportunities the age profile has changed but there will still be a lot of players that fall short.

Its more about character for me. I really do think the Macca no DH policy has moved out a lot of players which won't take us forward and I'm really bullish after hearing all our young players chat, that the club has continued along that path. The other bonus is that we we are now picking(over the last few years) natural footballers which is a massive tick for mine.

No offence to Ayce Cordy but the kid will never make it, and we have continued to waste development time on him. I know its harsh but it is AFL football, its the business. If list clogger offends happy to call it something else as it wasn't my intention.

[bornadog]

Calling players list cloggers, duds and other names is basically disrespectful.

[Remi Moses]

Got no issue with the term list clogger personally.
Some footballers aren't going to make it, it's a fact .
Surely we haven't become that over sensitive

[Webby]

Got no issue with the term list clogger personally.
Some footballers aren't going to make it, it's a fact .
Surely we haven't become that over sensitive

I've heard a hell of a lot worse. Fair game. Particularly after you've tipped in a hell of a lot of time and money (and spirit!) into the club over the years. These guys pick up quite generous pay cheques and are far from beyond reproach.... Particularly when they have a very important life long dream of ours in their hands... And particularly when it's not a lack of talent, but application that holds a lot of them back! They're not children. They're well paid, well looked after men.

"If I see one more bloke getting patted on the back, being told, sort of, "well done, you did your best" I'll spew up!...... It's just not acceptable!.... We were a rabble in that first quarter. An absolute rabble!"

[The Underdog]

Got no issue with the term list clogger personally.
Some footballers aren't going to make it, it's a fact .
Surely we haven't become that over sensitive

Because it's that players fault that he's on a list. He should step aside and make way for the next generation of par or below par footballers, because all of the players in your next draft are awesome. Until they're not.
Putting sarcasm aside (which is difficult for me) my real problem is guys being derided when they're 20 or 21 and haven't had a clear run due to injury. Footballers can improve and while I'm not saying everyone gets forever, sometimes patience is good.

[bornadog]

Because it's that players fault that he's on a list. He should step aside and make way for the next generation of par or below par footballers, because all of the players in your next draft are awesome. Until they're not.
Putting sarcasm aside (which is difficult for me) my real problem is guys being derided when they're 20 or 21 and haven't had a clear run due to injury. Footballers can improve and while I'm not saying everyone gets forever, sometimes patience is good.

Agree, and there is no problem in criticising players but derogative remarks is really disrespectful and not what this forum is about.

The way I see it, these guys are playing a game I love and for a club I love and would love to have had the opportunity to play for. As long as the don the RWB, they should get our support, but of course we can comment on their ability, effort, skills etc, but not with meaningless, derogative words like dud, shit, list cloggers etc.

Let's keep it civil.

[soupman]

I don't particularly object to the term "list clogger" in reference to a players actual ability, but I don't like it when supporters bag them out before they've had a chance to prove the doubters wrong or for things which aren't really their call.

For example Christian Howard has copped it for not living up to the expectations supporters have of a pick 15 with a "leg cannon" which in reality typically kicks floaters, but in the VFL grand final for instance we had some guy behind us bagging him out and shouting out abuse at him before he even had a chance to screw anything up, and Howard is quite good at VFL level anyway.

Another one is when they sign another contract, much like Howard did last year, and the general message from supporters seems to be "piss of Howard", when if any of us were offered a 1 year contract at the Bulldogs, and despite any of us being a much worse player and AFL prospect, wouldn't be able to sign fast enough. It isn't Howards fault he isn't quite AFL standard but still on the list, thats the list managers call not his.

[GVGjr]

Further to the opening post

I have broken down the playing list into rankings by position



Position

A Grade

B Grade

C Grade

Total



Defenders

0

6

10

16



Midfielders

4

5

5

14



Forwards

3

1

10

14



Total

7

12

25

44




We desperately need a number of the player rated as C Graders to move into B and A.
The onus on the club will be to maximise the investments other clubs and of course our own have made in players like Biggs, Redpath, Jong, Hamling, Kelly, Roberts, Fuller and Pearce who have all played 10 games or less.
On top of that Campbell, Talia and Darley need to step up to another level.

[bulldogtragic]

Further to the opening post

I have broken down the playing list into rankings by position



Position

A Grade

B Grade

C Grade

Total



Defenders

0

6

10

16



Midfielders

4

5

5

14



Forwards

3

1

10

14



Total

7

12

25

44




We desperately need a number of the player rated as C Graders to move into B and A.
The onus on the club will be to maximise the investments other clubs and of course our own have made in players like Biggs, Redpath, Jong, Hamling, Kelly, Roberts, Fuller and Pearce who have all played 10 games or less.
On top of that Campbell, Talia and Darley need to step up to another level.

Great graphic G. I think a lot comes down to kids actually playing, which they will now with a lot of exits. Darley I'm looking forward to. I hope Bevo changes the fascination about only playing one ruckman. So hopefully that allows Rought to go forward or Campbell a chance to have a good run. The graphic shows what we know, our defence is a big issue. Talia & Roberts just simply have to stand up, and I'd move Redpath back too. Like teams bottoming out, we have loads of 'potential'. It's a matter of developing our kids and getting as many games into them as we can. For mine, I want Grant & JJ to play to their potential. Two guys with X factor, a speedy rebounder and creative forward and set up guy would be a big step forward.

[Maddog37]

I would have Morris and Murphy as A graders personally.

[bornadog]

Are these potential A graders or actual?

[GVGjr]

Are these potential A graders or actual?

Rated on potential. In reality we probably only have Liberatore