2nd ruck role

[Mantis]

The Q&A thread threw up an interesting dilemma for 2015 and beyond. With Boyd coming in to the forward line who will we use as our 2nd ruck?

I think it's a given that Minson will start the year as the clear no 1, but who helps him out?

1/ Campbell? - I can't see a forward line functioning with both Boyd & Campbell ( or Minson) playing deep.

2/ Cordy? - probably not.

3/ Boyd? - Not sure we want him doing too much heavy lifting.

4/ Roughy? - needed in defence.

Am I missing someone?

[GVGjr]

I think we have a couple of other options to consider but they aren't ideal

- Redpath could be in the mix to either help Minson for a few minutes each quarter or potentially free up Roughead in the back line to do some ruckwork.
- Roberts can also play forward and back and do a 5 minute burst in the ruck.

Most options I can think of aren't great ones. Ideally it should be Roughead but we are lacking depth for key defenders.

[bulldogtragic]

I thinks it's Roughead to go forward and second. I think he's an AFL player, but I'm not all together convinced it's as a defender. But I know I'm in the minority camp on this. I don't rate Redpath at AFL Level, so perhaps it's Campbell by default. I would not be playing Boyd in the ruck, ever.

There in lies the issue left unanswered from trade/draft 2014.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

The Q&A thread threw up an interesting dilemma for 2015 and beyond. With Boyd coming in to the forward line who will we use as our 2nd ruck?

I think it's a given that Minson will start the year as the clear no 1, but who helps him out?

1/ Campbell? - I can't see a forward line functioning with both Boyd & Campbell ( or Minson) playing deep.

2/ Cordy? - probably not.

3/ Boyd? - Not sure we want him doing too much heavy lifting.

4/ Roughy? - needed in defence.

Am I missing someone?

I tend to agree with you on all points. Tom Boyd's arrival puts different perspective on the need for a second ruck who needs to make his selection viable by also playing forward or back. Just from a logical point of view, your most challengeable point is no.1. " Campbell? - I can't see a forward line functioning with both Boyd & Campbell ( or Minson) playing deep". In Boyd's first year there may well be a role for Campbbell to play forward, if he improves and builds on the two good games he played forward where he showed fantastic desparation, good marking and reasonable kicking technique.
We have a surfeit of forwards now and a weak backline. The other option is to play Campbell as a loose man in defence at times.

[boydogs]

I get the sense we will try all 4 options at various stages, change it around because it didn't work for the reasons you stated, rinse and repeat. Campbell probably the most successful as we can rest Minson more without losing much in the ruck

It's only been quick glimpses but I'm fairly sure I've seen Boyd in ruck contests in training videos. Training watchers may be able to confirm

[bornadog]

I don't like any of the options at all, but we just don't have anyone available. Ideally we need a tall very mobile player that won't be a burden in the forward line with Boyd there alreaday. I guess my pick will be whoever takes over CHF, so perhaps Redpath.

[The Doctor]

We don't know who our ruckman post Minson is.

It should be Roughead, who I think could be an AFL elite ruckman, but it seems his future remains in defence. There are major doubts as to whether Campbell or Cordy can handle no.2 ruckman duties let alone No.1. Suggestions of Redpath and Roberts in support rucking roles is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Dalrymple has failed dismally in the ruck recruiting area and really should be held accountable for this.

[Go_Dogs]

It's an interesting issue.

My thoughts are post-Minson, we look OK with Campbell being a good chance to hold down the lead ruck role. He's still got areas to improve on, but his ruck work isn't bad and he offers a bit around the ground and up forward with his marking.

Roughead as a chop out is the idea for mine (similar to what Port do with Trengove, albeit something that's likely to change with Ryder now there) but that's contingent on having at least 2 of Talia, Roberts and Hamling able to hold down key posts so we don't lose too much down back when Rough rotates.

I'm not a fan of using Roberts, Redpath or Boyd in the ruck, if we can avoid it.

[Remi Moses]

Can't see how Darymple is accountabile considering ruckman don't mature until their mid 20's at least .
Roughead as a ruck gets a lot of love, but he hasn't shown anymore than Campbell as a ruck.

[Mofra]

Redpath was surprisingly competitive as a ruckman, but I'm not convinced on his ability as a forward.
Boyd can do it - but do we want to want to risk a Josh Fraser type of scenario by rucking him during his development years?

I think Roughy is the most natural available - his tapwork was instinctive, but then we have an issue in the backline.

[Sedat]

Suggestions of Redpath and Roberts in support rucking roles is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Agreed, but I'd rather scrape the bottom of the barrel with a workhorse for a couple of minutes a quarter as opposed to risking Boyd or Roughy in ruck contests. These two are genuine talents who have been earmarked as our long-term bookends, so someone else can do the gruntwork in the ruck.

The caveat here is that Redpath absolutely must earn a position in the team as our 2nd tall forward target, otherwise he'll just end up like all those English all-rounders who were being called the "next Botham" but couldn't bat nor bowl.

[Cyberdoggie]

Agreed, but I'd rather scrape the bottom of the barrel with a workhorse for a couple of minutes a quarter as opposed to risking Boyd or Roughy in ruck contests. These two are genuine talents who have been earmarked as our long-term bookends, so someone else can do the gruntwork in the ruck.

The caveat here is that Redpath absolutely must earn a position in the team as our 2nd tall forward target, otherwise he'll just end up like all those English all-rounders who were being called the "next Botham" but couldn't bat nor bowl.

Roughy does look a bit like Broad.


But back on topic, I think we will be bringing this one up all year as we have previously because they really isn't a place for 2 lumbering ruckmen who can't play anywhere else in the same team with modern football and interchanges.
Who knows, we may even see Bonts appear in the ruck on occasions, not that you want your Rolls Royce playing destruction derby but we could throw him in the middle to give Minson a break and also add the x factor of another extraction midfielder being there. Would work late in games when players are tired and spaces start to open up.

[Sedat]

Who knows, we may even see Bonts appear in the ruck on occasions, not that you want your Rolls Royce playing destruction derby but we could throw him in the middle to give Minson a break and also add the x factor of another extraction midfielder being there. Would work late in games when players are tired and spaces start to open up.
Bont could play anywhere - at times last year he was our most effective KP forward. I have no doubt he could pinch-hit in the ruck on occasions but I would hate to see him ever used in such a fashion against the big bulldozers from the opposition.

[Ozza]

Our best scenario is that Redpath performs well enough to be able to play fwd/ruck. Reason being, that he actually does well in the ruck when he has had an opportunity - and there's no way we should be risking Boyd.

But its getting Redpath to a best 22 player is the hurdle.

On top of this - an even better scenario is that Campbell plays well enough to take over the number 1 ruck spot on his own merits (rather than Minson lack of form).

[Greystache]

Who knows, we may even see Bonts appear in the ruck on occasions, not that you want your Rolls Royce playing destruction derby but we could throw him in the middle to give Minson a break and also add the x factor of another extraction midfielder being there. Would work late in games when players are tired and spaces start to open up.

He did do some occasional rucking in the games he played for Footscray. It's obviously a bit easier at VFL level though as often the ruckmen are quite a bit smaller than the AFL.

[whythelongface]

It is an interesting question. Last year I would have thought that Campbell would be our 2nd ruckman particular after his strong showing in the latter half of 2013, however now I am not sure if he has a role within the team structure (since Boyd's switch). I think Campbell will continue to develop at VFL in the hope that he does step up once Minson is reaching the end of his career.

If Redpath is our CHF option then I would suspect he will be used either in the ruck or possibly switched to defence and then Roughie used as our 2nd ruck. When this switch is made Bonti moves into a CHF role.

Another wild card could be Ayce. However I am concerned about his ability to play anywhere else but ruck.This effectively rules him out as he would be a potential liability around the ground (unless he has improved considerably).

[boydogs]

Redpath is only 194cm, given the doubts on whether Hamling & Z Cordy are tall enough for KPD I'm surprised by the support for him to play ruck

[GVGjr]

Redpath is only 194cm, given the doubts on whether Hamling & Z Cordy are tall enough for KPD I'm surprised by the support for him to play ruck

Not ruck but 2nd ruck. Close to 5 mins per quarter to give Minson a chop out.
Is the Hamling and Zaine Cordy reference relevant given that Redpath has a lot stronger build than the other two?

[boydogs]

Not ruck but 2nd ruck. Close to 5 mins per quarter to give Minson a chop out.
Is the Hamling and Zaine Cordy reference relevant given that Redpath has a lot stronger build than the other two?

Build is important however I would argue that height is more important in the ruck than anywhere else on the ground, as ruck contests are always in the air and with both rucks side by side. The more athletic rucks don't even get them same run up they used to when they cut that down to reduce injuries

[jeemak]

Cordy is at a stage in his development where he should make this position his own. He is the most interesting prospect for the first half of our season for mine, and coming off a solid VFL finals series he should have some confidence to take a step forward.

I like Roughead in defence, as he's the only player on our list likely to take charge of a high ball coming into our defencive 50m area. He needs to remain in that role.

When Minson retires Campbell will be the first ruck, though until then I think he needs to fight it out with Cordy for the second ruck role. I really don't see any issues with playing all of Campbell/Cordy, Stringer, Grant, Bontempelli and Boyd in the same forward line. Two or three of those players can play short, smart and quick if need be, meaning we may finally have a tall forward line that is flexible enough to stretch some defenders and stop them from smashing the conciliatory tall we normally have there making up the numbers.

Losing Griffyn, Cooney, Higgins and Jones has made it easier for me to propose the above. Guys like Dahl, Hunter, Hrovat and Stevens will have to lift more weight in the midfield, meaning as rotations through that region and off the bench take place we'll only need to have one dedicated small forward with another small mid taking some time there while one of the taller forwards has a spell. Crameri will spend a fair bit of time up around the wing and half back area too.

[whythelongface]

Cordy is at a stage in his development where he should make this position his own. He is the most interesting prospect for the first half of our season for mine, and coming off a solid VFL finals series he should have some confidence to take a step forward.

I like Roughead in defence, as he's the only player on our list likely to take charge of a high ball coming into our defencive 50m area. He needs to remain in that role.

When Minson retires Campbell will be the first ruck, though until then I think he needs to fight it out with Cordy for the second ruck role. I really don't see any issues with playing all of Campbell/Cordy, Stringer, Grant, Bontempelli and Boyd in the same forward line. Two or three of those players can play short, smart and quick if need be, meaning we may finally have a tall forward line that is flexible enough to stretch some defenders and stop them from smashing the conciliatory tall we normally have there making up the numbers.

Losing Griffyn, Cooney, Higgins and Jones has made it easier for me to propose the above. Guys like Dahl, Hunter, Hrovat and Stevens will have to lift more weight in the midfield, meaning as rotations through that region and off the bench take place we'll only need to have one dedicated small forward with another small mid taking some time there while one of the taller forwards has a spell. Crameri will spend a fair bit of time up around the wing and half back area too.

Jeemak you make some good observations in regards to a tall forward line. If Campbell can have the same impact in that area as he did in the latter half of 2013 then we potentially have two tall forwards over 200cm. This would be very hard for the opposition to negate. With Boyd being our no. 1 forward target this really opens the door for a Campbell to play that 2nd/3rd tall forward option along with Stringer. Throw in the likes of Crameri and Bonts and we could finally have some serious options within our forward structure.

[bornadog]

Cordy is at a stage in his development where he should make this position his own. He is the most interesting prospect for the first half of our season for mine, and coming off a solid VFL finals series he should have some confidence to take a step forward.

In the VFL GrandFinal, I thought Cordy gave us more out of the centre than Campbell. When Hawthorn went 18 points ahead, Cordy was switched into the centre and won some crucial taps, which went straight down the throat of Jong.

Both Campbell and Cordy have a long way to go, but I agree they have to fight out the 2nd ruck role as we don't have too many options.

[Mofra]

Build is important however I would argue that height is more important in the ruck than anywhere else on the ground, as ruck contests are always in the air and with both rucks side by side. The more athletic rucks don't even get them same run up they used to when they cut that down to reduce injuries
Redpath is 3cm shorter than Jones but a much, much better 2nd ruckman due to his aggression.

A 2nd ruckman just needs to be aggressive enough to force a contest and reduce the opposition hitouts to advantage, especially considering Minson rucks 80-90% of the game.

[soupman]

Redpath is 3cm shorter than Jones but a much, much better 2nd ruckman due to his aggression.

A 2nd ruckman just needs to be aggressive enough to force a contest and reduce the opposition hitouts to advantage, especially considering Minson rucks 80-90% of the game.

Correct. The second ruck is basically there to halve the ruck contests. If he doesn't get a hitout that's fine as long as the opposition don't either.

[Cyberdoggie]

Redpath is only 194cm, given the doubts on whether Hamling & Z Cordy are tall enough for KPD I'm surprised by the support for him to play ruck

I agree it doesn't sound like he's tall enough for a ruck but he's only 4 cm shorter than Minson and he's 100kg's.
When you look at 4cm on a ruler it's not very much but on paper it sounds a lot more.
Take a look at Wayde Skipper, he was only 193cm but managed to ruck because of his leap.

Late in the games when players stop jumping as much at the ruck a big body is hard to push around.

[bulldogtragic]

The comments of our first genuinely capable key forward since Chris Grant potentially playing 2nd ruck are not filling me warmth and joy.

[always right]

I think trying both Boyd and Campbell up forward is worth experimenting with. Campbell is not good enough to be the go-to big forward we tried to develop a couple of years back but with the attention on Boyd, he may actually be a threat. It's the sort of thing we can trial in the NAB games......push our mobile forwards up the ground where they can use their pace and creativity and have them charging into the forwardline to get the crumbs from the two big blokes.

[Bulldog Joe]

I think trying both Boyd and Campbell up forward is worth experimenting with. Campbell is not good enough to be the go-to big forward we tried to develop a couple of years back but with the attention on Boyd, he may actually be a threat. It's the sort of thing we can trial in the NAB games......push our mobile forwards up the ground where they can use their pace and creativity and have them charging into the forwardline to get the crumbs from the two big blokes.

We did consistently use 2 big guys forward at VFL last year.

Had Cordy/Campbell rotating with Redpath forward. All were effective, but it is a different level.

[LostDoggy]

The comments of our first genuinely capable key forward since Chris Grant potentially playing 2nd ruck are not filling me warmth and joy.

It doesn't bother me as much. Are we worried he will get hurt? It's only really the centre bounces that pose danger and even then you can't really get a big enough run up now days to cause too much damage.

It will help his fitness, get him up and ground and getting more touches of the footy. It may even fast track his developement a year or 2.

If we are copping a flogging and Boyd isn't seeing much footy I would be all for it.

[always right]

We did consistently use 2 big guys forward at VFL last year.

Had Cordy/Campbell rotating with Redpath forward. All were effective, but it is a different level.

Yes we did but I hardly think the comparison is fair. Although he is yet to really prove himself, I suspect opposition teams will be far more wary of Boyd than they were of Redpath and Cordy. Campbell may be the beneficiary of the focus on Boyd.

[F'scary]

It doesn't bother me as much. Are we worried he will get hurt? It's only really the centre bounces that pose danger and even then you can't really get a big enough run up now days to cause too much damage.

It will help his fitness, get him up and ground and getting more touches of the footy. It may even fast track his developement a year or 2.

If we are copping a flogging and Boyd isn't seeing much footy I would be all for it.

I think this is a great point. Boyd shouldn't be treated as a delicate flower. Maybe he could be the chop out for Minson (5 minutes a quarter + rucking it when it is deep in the forward line), it could be a positive building experience for him, keep him involved, make him and his teamates feel like he earns his keep and could provide that bit of mixing it up that would keep our forward line from becoming too predictable.

[F'scary]

I think this is a great point. Boyd shouldn't be treated as a delicate flower. Maybe he could be the chop out for Minson (5 minutes a quarter + rucking it when it is deep in the forward line), it could be a positive building experience for him, keep him involved, make him and his teamates feel like he earns his keep and could provide that bit of mixing it up that would keep our forward line from becoming too predictable.

and I liked Bevo's interview - shows he thinks outside the square and employs lateral thinking.

[Bulldog4life]

Roughead of Hawthorn is a gun forward and the Hawks don't have a problem rucking him. Can't see a problem rucking Boyd if that's what the coach wants.

[Bandit]

On T Boyd. Has there ever been a 200cm player that doesnt play at least occasional minutes in the ruck? Gives fantastic flexibility. I like Minson as number one with Boyd and Redpath chopping out. Don't think Campbell and Minson can regularly play in the same team. I do see Campbell starting to put serious pressure on Minson though.

[KT31]

On T Boyd. Has there ever been a 200cm player that doesnt play at least occasional minutes in the ruck? Gives fantastic flexibility. I like Minson as number one with Boyd and Redpath chopping out. Don't think Campbell and Minson can regularly play in the same team. I do see Campbell starting to put serious pressure on Minson though.

Lets put it into perspective and ignore his height for a minute.
Boyd is a hell of a lot more important as the key forward to us than in the ruck.
Going by your theory whilst not 200cm, for their day Dunstall, Lockett and Bazza should have shared ruck duties.

[LostDoggy]

Lets put it into perspective and ignore his height for a minute.
Boyd is a hell of a lot more important as the key forward to us than in the ruck.
Going by your theory whilst not 200cm, for their day Dunstall, Lockett and Bazza should have shared ruck duties.

Huh? I'm not sure we can ignore the height given the fact this thread is about the 2nd ruck roll.

Also I'm not sure the comparison with the players you have mentioned makes much sense..

If those blokes were 200cm and playing in todays game, where rule changes and game styles has changed considerably, so teams can't afford to just have two big dinosaurs in the team who can ruck and that's all. Then sure, they probably would have spent some time as a relief ruckman.

[jeemak]

How is being the second ruck more physically demanding than being the only genuine tall forward?

If I was a betting man I'd suggest his body would cop more abuse in the latter role, such is the propensity for us to move the ball slowly and expose our forwards to 2 on 3 or 2 on 4 contests.

[Go_Dogs]

How is being the second ruck more physically demanding than being the only genuine tall forward?

If I was a betting man I'd suggest his body would cop more abuse in the latter role, such is the propensity for us to move the ball slowly and expose our forwards to 2 on 3 or 2 on 4 contests.

To be fair, you may be right.

My concerns are, in the ruck he's more likely to be up against comparatively sized players, as far as height and weight, whilst there'll be some big bodies down back, having big 200cm players run straight at you and try to hurt you. is perhaps going to be a bigger load to deal with, particularly after dealing with all the contesting in the F50.

[jeemak]

To be fair, you may be right.

My concerns are, in the ruck he's more likely to be up against comparatively sized players, as far as height and weight, whilst there'll be some big bodies down back, having big 200cm players run straight at you and try to hurt you. is perhaps going to be a bigger load to deal with, particularly after dealing with all the contesting in the F50.

But is the ruck position really about that these days?

When the opposition's main ruck is resting, I'd assume we'll rest ours......unless we think we can expose that situation to our advantage.

This means that a Boyd is likely to come up against the second ruck from our opposition.

Seriously, give the guys some shin pads and let him get on with it. Ruck contest aren't what they used to be in terms of physicality. He'll be fine.

[F'scary]

Lets put it into perspective and ignore his height for a minute.
Boyd is a hell of a lot more important as the key forward to us than in the ruck.
Going by your theory whilst not 200cm, for their day Dunstall, Lockett and Bazza should have shared ruck duties.

KT31, Lockett in fact did pinch hit in the ruck for his first few seasons. He was actually pretty good at it.

[KT31]

Huh? I'm not sure we can ignore the height given the fact this thread is about the 2nd ruck roll.

Also I'm not sure the comparison with the players you have mentioned makes much sense..

If those blokes were 200cm and playing in todays game, where rule changes and game styles has changed considerably, so teams can't afford to just have two big dinosaurs in the team who can ruck and that's all. Then sure, they probably would have spent some time as a relief ruckman.

Its not a straight height issue for me, its more I don't want to see the key forward we have been screaming out for decades end up with a injury that could have been avoided.
I realise this is more a cotton wool theory than practical but with our players continually mentioning how hard the Etihad surface is( especially the compacted centre square), I don't see the need to risk him.
Fair darts if our ruck was injured and it was out of desperation but I would rather Roughy go into the ruck.
Its just my opinion but I would love to see Boyd concentrate on learning the traits to become a great forward than spend time on ruck duties and forward work.

[bornadog]

Its just my opinion but I would love to see Boyd concentrate on learning the traits to become a great forward than spend time on ruck duties and forward work.

I agree, his role is FF, we haven't had one this young with potential since Grant started in 1990. Why take him away from the position and leave a big hole there again, even if its for 5 minute stints.

[Mofra]

On T Boyd. Has there ever been a 200cm player that doesnt play at least occasional minutes in the ruck?
Cam Wight?

[Mofra]

Lets put it into perspective and ignore his height for a minute.
Boyd is a hell of a lot more important as the key forward to us than in the ruck.
Going by your theory whilst not 200cm, for their day Dunstall, Lockett and Bazza should have shared ruck duties.
In their day teams often played two ruckmen (or played the traditional "kick behind the play" role a la Wynd) so they didn't need to give a chop out - not that Dunstall or Lockett would have been tall enough anyway.

[always right]

Cam Wight?

I actually recall Wight spending a small amount of time in the ruck on several occasions.

[1eyedog]

How is being the second ruck more physically demanding than being the only genuine tall forward?

If I was a betting man I'd suggest his body would cop more abuse in the latter role, such is the propensity for us to move the ball slowly and expose our forwards to 2 on 3 or 2 on 4 contests.

There is of course talk of being more adventurous this year so hopefully we can get him one out more time that not - remains to be seen. Also second rucks are thugs who don't really understand ruck craft and seem more intent of bashing each other into submission rather than concentrating on positioning.

[KT31]

In their day teams often played two ruckmen (or played the traditional "kick behind the play" role a la Wynd) so they didn't need to give a chop out - not that Dunstall or Lockett would have been tall enough anyway.

It was a different era and i know its an exception to the rule but Dunstall played nearly half his career with Tuck and they are both the same height.