Ball usage and Decision Making vs Effort

[mjp]

This is going to come off as hyper critical of one player - so please let me say in advance that it isn't intended that way.

Lin Jong is not up to AFL standard with regards his football awareness and skill execution. His kicking and handball decisions/execution could have very easily cost us the game yesterday. His effort and attack on the footy/body is supreme. But he is going to remain limited as a player until he gets 'better' in some pretty fundamental areas.

Defensively he is a worry. The mark that LeCras took when Jong was the nearest opponent yesterday was a really poor piece of play. Don't worry whether LeCras was Jong's direct opponent - in that moment he WAS LeCras' opponent and that half hearted jump at the ball without making body contact was real u16's stuff. I didn't like it - and it isn't related to courage as he is as brave as they come - but he played it like he genuinely didn't KNOW what to do. Goal West Coast.

In the last q he ran around like an energizer bunny (which is good) but just seems to kick when he should handball, handball when he should kick and even when he gets it right (the short pass marked by Macrae??) from the wing that was a connection because of an excellent marking effort (fingertips no less!) rather than a player hitting a simple 25m target (which is what it should have been).

My question is this. Is Jong's full throttle approach enough to overcome his pretty obvious decision making/skill issues? Do we believe these elements of his game will improve?

As an aside, I am certain someone is going to quote kicking efficiency stats or something back on me...go for it. Those don't cover the whole 'handballed to a team-mate under pressure when he should have kicked' type errors that I see in his game at the moment. I happily acknowledge his effort and physical attributes are of AFL standard - his decision making and kicking skills are not. My question is, do we sacrifice one for the other and will he get better?

[SonofScray]

That marking contest you are highlighting, if it is the one I am thinking, it looked bad but was the result of the play being broken down further a field. Jong was pushing back and seemed indecisive about who to cover or where to be, I've seen that from plenty of defenders trying to cover space when the ball comes back with interest.

Jong's gut running swung momentum back in our favour. He needs to build a more attacking, long kick into his game to go up another level but to answer your question, his approach in this system will cover those deficiencies and his attitude to developing his game will address the other concerns over his career, to a point.

[Topdog]

I think you need someone with his qualities in the team so yes I'm of the opinion that we need that sacrifice.

It's up to him to improve though as there is always a chance that someone who runs and works just as hard but is a better decision maker will be drafted.

[mjp]

That marking contest you are highlighting, if it is the one I am thinking, it looked bad but was the result of the play being broken down further a field. Jong was pushing back and seemed indecisive about who to cover or where to be, I've seen that from plenty of defenders trying to cover space when the ball comes back with interest.


It looked bad because it was bad. He HAD to make body contact there. Having seen it from 'plenty of defenders' doesn't make it OK. Jong has great attributes but to me is given a free pass by supporters at the moment because his effort is seen to be high.

As an aside, to suggest his running swung the game is overly simplistic - his running is part of what helped regain/maintain our lead but so were the efforts of a number of other players.

[Hotdog60]

Despite his short comings I believe he has the ability to improve. He has come a long way from when he first started.
If he gets the full season in the firsts let's do a player review at the end and see if he has improved.

Playing at the top level will find him out. Or he may learn and take another step in the right direction.

[GVGjr]

I think most of us realise that Jong still ha plenty to learn and while I agree that a couple of his errors could have been costly to me its just about developing his game further. While we want him to take the game on, he will still need to learn the defensive side of his game.

MJP what should the coaches be doing to help him develop those defensive instincts?

[Maddog37]

If he surrounded by smart players and is used correctly it should be a minimal issue. You cannot carry 2-3 of the type of player that Jong is though.


Having said that he is continually improving and I wouldn't back against him continuing to do so.

[1eyedog]

This is going to come off as hyper critical of one player - so please let me say in advance that it isn't intended that way.

Lin Jong is not up to AFL standard with regards his football awareness and skill execution. His kicking and handball decisions/execution could have very easily cost us the game yesterday. His effort and attack on the footy/body is supreme. But he is going to remain limited as a player until he gets 'better' in some pretty fundamental areas.

Defensively he is a worry. The mark that LeCras took when Jong was the nearest opponent yesterday was a really poor piece of play. Don't worry whether LeCras was Jong's direct opponent - in that moment he WAS LeCras' opponent and that half hearted jump at the ball without making body contact was real u16's stuff. I didn't like it - and it isn't related to courage as he is as brave as they come - but he played it like he genuinely didn't KNOW what to do. Goal West Coast.

In the last q he ran around like an energizer bunny (which is good) but just seems to kick when he should handball, handball when he should kick and even when he gets it right (the short pass marked by Macrae??) from the wing that was a connection because of an excellent marking effort (fingertips no less!) rather than a player hitting a simple 25m target (which is what it should have been).

My question is this. Is Jong's full throttle approach enough to overcome his pretty obvious decision making/skill issues? Do we believe these elements of his game will improve?

As an aside, I am certain someone is going to quote kicking efficiency stats or something back on me...go for it. Those don't cover the whole 'handballed to a team-mate under pressure when he should have kicked' type errors that I see in his game at the moment. I happily acknowledge his effort and physical attributes are of AFL standard - his decision making and kicking skills are not. My question is, do we sacrifice one for the other and will he get better?

But there are positives to every negative(s) isn't there. I'm not going to debate your post or elaborate much on mine because that's not what you're asking, but his ability to separate from the contest and carry the ball at pace is an attribute we are now noticeably lacking given the departures of Griffen and Cooney. There was one instance where he broke from the contest, ran full tilt up the outer wing and delivered beautifully to Crameri who missed the shot from 25 metres out.

He has flaws in his game no doubt but his kicking is much improved and can / will be AFL standard with time. 24 touches and seven tackles form a guy who has played 11 games of football is a great return. I thought he was one of our best players last night because all the things he did do right easily outweighed the bad.

[LostDoggy]

To put it simply, in my opinion, his game last night deserves re-selection next week. I hope we put faith in these guys until proven otherwise or they are sidelined by injury. There are players ready to come in and they will get their chance.

[always right]

Disagree.

This bloke continues to show improvement in each aspect of the game....which he needs to do. In the passage of play with Lecras I don't think he was ever in the position to take his body. He was too far away and lost the ball in flight against a very smart player.

My take on Jong is this......each year he has taken a significant step up. This year his kicking (still a work in progress) has far greater penetration then last year and he is picking better options. The passage of play when he ran with the ball and passed to Crameri was a great example. Last year he would have blazed whereas yesterday he assessed the situation perfectly and centred the ball to Crameri's advantage.

Last year when receiving the ball under pressure he tended to just prop and cop. Several times last night he managed to ride the contact and free his arms to offload the ball. Another step in his development.

There are times he still picks the wrong option but part of this is the game style Beveridge wants the team to play.....fast, at times manic....but take the game on at all times. Jong is playing to instruction.

Our team is not in a position to challenge for the finals. In Jong you have a bloke with weaknesses but who has shown (and continues to show) greater improvement than anyone else in our side. Who knows what his ceiling is? I reckon that as long as his form justifies it, you play him at every opportunity and see how much more development is in him.

[boydogs]

That LeCras contest he was just piggy in the middle. There were fewer errors in his game yesterday than an average Koby Stevens game, and it was his first game in the AFL as an attacking mid

[westdog54]

You could just as easily have had the ball usage and decision making discussion about Macrae after last night. Jong was a rookie and Jack was pick 6.

Jong has improved these facets of his game immensely in the past 12 months and will continue to improve.

[1eyedog]

You could just as easily have had the ball usage and decision making discussion about Macrae after last night. Jong was a rookie and Jack was pick 6.

Jong has improved these facets of his game immensely in the past 12 months and will continue to improve.

JJ as well. You could also question the impact JJ's horrific injuries have had on his courage after pulling out of that mark as well.

[wb_age]

Disagree.

This bloke continues to show improvement in each aspect of the game....which he needs to do. In the passage of play with Lecras I don't think he was ever in the position to take his body. He was too far away and lost the ball in flight against a very smart player.



That play occurred right in front of me on L1 and it was exactly as quoted above. It did look vastly different on TV when I watched the replay.

Were you at the game MJP?

[The bulldog tragician]

Some interesting observations, but this is game number 11 and the kid also has had a broken leg. The rate of improvement he's shown has been phenomenal, and given the speed that we've lost with the departures of Cooney and some bloke in number 16 I am a firm believer in Lin's potential.

[mjp]

That play occurred right in front of me on L1 and it was exactly as quoted above. It did look vastly different on TV when I watched the replay.

Were you at the game MJP?

Yeah - zipped across from Perth for the weekend! No - at home watching.

He wasn't at the contest because he wasn't at the contest. You are correct - he wasn't in position to take the body but my point is that he SHOULD have been. LeCras was the most dangerous player for some time in that passage of play and SOMEONE had to get to him. Jong was clearly closest and was going back as if in two minds - just go back! Sure, LeCras is clever but not in this instance - he just got behind the defence and - whichever way you cut it, was allowed to take an uncontested mark.

Just on the comparison to Macrae - he turns it over trying to be overly clever which is not great but I can generally see what is his trying to do...Jong is just not at that level and still handballs when he should kick and vice versa. And further to that, at this point in time it really doesn't matter that Macrae was a 1st rounder and Jong a rookie - they are both on the senior list at the club.

Like I said, this was going to appear as an attack on one player and it isn't meant to be that...the question is do his effort and attack on the footy overcome (what I believe) is poor decision making/skill execution.

The point raised above that you can carry a couple of players who have skill issues but no more than a couple...maybe that's right and maybe Jong is our man who is in for enthusiasm over outcomes?

[mjp]

Our team is not in a position to challenge for the finals.

I don't agree with this. I have said it before that our forward structure is unique and dangerous and it WILL create matchup nightmares for our opposition. Winning 12 games should not be considered out of the question...if we do that, we will be in the hunt for a top 8 position.

Look at Richmond. Tell me who they are going to play on Stringer, Crameri and Bontempelli if all three are forward? They are going to have an issue....Fine - Rance takes Boyd. Chaplin will obliterate Redpath. But if we end up with a Houli vs Stringer or something like that, it is going to end badly for Richmond.

[1eyedog]

Yeah - zipped across from Perth for the weekend! No - at home watching.

He wasn't at the contest because he wasn't at the contest. You are correct - he wasn't in position to take the body but my point is that he SHOULD have been. LeCras was the most dangerous player for some time in that passage of play and SOMEONE had to get to him. Jong was clearly closest and was going back as if in two minds - just go back! Sure, LeCras is clever but not in this instance - he just got behind the defence and - whichever way you cut it, was allowed to take an uncontested mark.

Just on the comparison to Macrae - he turns it over trying to be overly clever which is not great but I can generally see what is his trying to do...Jong is just not at that level and still handballs when he should kick and vice versa. And further to that, at this point in time it really doesn't matter that Macrae was a 1st rounder and Jong a rookie - they are both on the senior list at the club.

Like I said, this was going to appear as an attack on one player and it isn't meant to be that...the question is do his effort and attack on the footy overcome (what I believe) is poor decision making/skill execution.

The point raised above that you can carry a couple of players who have skill issues but no more than a couple...maybe that's right and maybe Jong is our man who is in for enthusiasm over outcomes?

I do not think there would be a player in the AFL who would be played due to his level of enthusiasm as opposed to deliverables on the football field. I'm sure most members wouldn't suffer that either.

[1eyedog]

I don't agree with this. I have said it before that our forward structure is unique and dangerous and it WILL create matchup nightmares for our opposition. Winning 12 games should not be considered out of the question...if we do that, we will be in the hunt for a top 8 position.

Look at Richmond. Tell me who they are going to play on Stringer, Crameri and Bontempelli if all three are forward? They are going to have an issue....Fine - Rance takes Boyd. Chaplin will obliterate Redpath. But if we end up with a Houli vs Stringer or something like that, it is going to end badly for Richmond.

No they'll play Morris and Grimes on Stringer and Crameri both of whom are good defenders. Grimes will probably go to Grant / Bont when they play forward.

[always right]

No they'll play Morris and Grimes on Stringer and Crameri both of whom are good defenders. Grimes will probably go to Grant / Bont when they play forward.

They're playing Morris as a defensive forward nowadays.

[1eyedog]

They're playing Morris as a defensive forward nowadays.

Fair enough I noticed he was listed on a HFF on Thursday. That is a luxury they may not be able to maintain with our forward line, although I thought our forward line would be more dominant with McKenzie not playing and Brown going down last night.

[always right]

I don't agree with this. I have said it before that our forward structure is unique and dangerous and it WILL create matchup nightmares for our opposition. Winning 12 games should not be considered out of the question...if we do that, we will be in the hunt for a top 8 position.

Look at Richmond. Tell me who they are going to play on Stringer, Crameri and Bontempelli if all three are forward? They are going to have an issue....Fine - Rance takes Boyd. Chaplin will obliterate Redpath. But if we end up with a Houli vs Stringer or something like that, it is going to end badly for Richmond.
Do you acknowledge that;
1. Jong has shown significant improvement each year
2. His kicking and game sense, whilst still needing plenty of work, has improved significantly
3. He has attributes we desperately need
4. We still don't know his ceiling

I say we persevere.

[Topdog]

I like Jong and am happy for him to be in the seniors.

People keep saying to persevere with him but the reality is we can play him in the VFL and let him develop there with regards to his kicking. Getting dropped isn't the end of his career.

[Stefcep]

I couldn't disagree more.

If you want to highlight potentially game costing moments here's several:

Crameri miss.

Stringer's misses x2

Dalhaus's misses x2

Wood's ridiculous decision to break through half the Eagles side 30 meters form our goal with Minson 15 meters right in front of him in the clear that resulted in a goal when the game was clearly in the balance.


The thing about the above cock ups is that the Crameri, Stringer and Dalhaus are in the side specifically to convert those opportunities ie forwards making mistakes as forwards in the forward lin. Wood is in the side to clear a ball in defenxe ie a debender making a defensive mistake in the defense

The incident you are talking about happened because of play up the field and Jong was indecisive about which opponent ot go to as there were two he could've gone to.

[GVGjr]

Enjoying the discussions. To me he needs to keep improving but I'm comfortable with his progress so far.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Great insights MJP & I agree with all you have said and I would presume these are the exact things the coaches will be endeavouring to teach him. I'm guessing here but I think our coaches are impressed enough with his meteoric improvement to date to give him opportunity to try and improve those deficiencies, for a time. It remains to be seen how long they will keep him in the firsts if he does not show improvement soon in these areas, especially if they come at a cost of 4 points.
I really like the fact that he has shown such an appetite for learning and hard work to date in coming from where he was 12 months ago. But if he is unable to keep his learning trajectory going in the direction it has been going then there will come a time that his deficiencies will no doubt curtail his AFL career.

[1eyedog]

If he plays like he did last night he'll be picked every week.

[Doc26]

Whilst the thread title is a fair topic to discuss in general, to single out Lin, who we are all aware is coming from a fair way back, in my opinion is unreasonable and frankly I'm surprised with MJP on this occasion.

Lin has barely played at this level, and like many with a similar level of experience, is still learning but what he has shown is vast improvement in twelve months particularly with his ball use, which has been severely criticised on this site previously, and with his endurance, where he was still running hard in the last when many had virtually stopped.

We would all agree that improvement is required of him, especially in his positioning and decision making, but these are areas not unique to Lin especially given where he is at. There are so many examples that can be drawn from most on poor positioning and decision making. For players such as Lin, so early in their development, I'm comfortable to give them more time before singling them out.

Anyway, what is AFL standard in these areas for someone who had played 10 games before last night ? He is now starting to exceed this standard in other critical elements.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

If he plays like he did last night he'll be picked every week.
In the short term yes, but I think if he isn't able to improve on his obvious deficiencies then it may not be so clear cut .
I have some sentimentality towards him as my wife is Taiwanese and she is also a mad keen Doggies member. She is very proud to see Jong playing at the Dogs and we both hope he can continue to develop at the rate he has to date.
For what it's worth I think he can make it. For someone to have come from nowhere in such a short time it tells me he has a great ability to process and apply what the coaches are telling him.

[mjp]

Whilst the thread title is a fair topic to discuss in general, to single out Lin, who we are all aware is coming from a fair way back, in my opinion is unreasonable and frankly I'm surprised with MJP on this occasion.


That's fair enough. My opening line did say it would come across as overly critical of one player though but I didn't really have another way to get to the heart of the topic than use Jong as an example. He is a player who I can sense has really won the hearts of the supporters over just through his effort - but when I watch the game critically I see a lot of errors particularly with the ball in hand. I added an example of a defensive mistake as well and due to how specific I made that example it has drawn a lot of comment that was never the intention nor the plan...the example was just to say the errors he is making are not 'just' skill related - they relate to game-sense and decision making more than 'skill' execution.

I actually equate the impact Jong has to what Mitch Hahn used to bring the team once upon a time. It is hard running, strong at the contest footy with an occasional skill 'disaster' that we are all happy to live with due to the 'other stuff'. But where is the 'line'.

Tell me how to raise the thread without using a player as an example and I will do it...but it needs to be 'about' a player because that is the nature of the question.

As to the point about Crameri, Stringer and Dahl missing goals - sure. I get that. Those weren't poor decisions though - just missed set shots. Not good enough and I understand that but you are talking about three players who are good kicks and make good decisions who have flaws in their set shot routine...that is nowhere next to the same thing (but equally threatening to 4-points as the point was).

As to the Richmond thing, they have been grooming Morris to play forward - he took Yarren last week, he will take Murphy this week. If he does play back, great - Stringer, Crameri and Bontempelli are way too big and strong for him. Look at the match-ups - we have a distinct point of difference/advantage at the moment and if our mids keep pressuring as they have in the last two weeks we will be right amongst it.

[always right]

Can someone please give me some examples of Jong's indiscretions last night? I must have been distracted.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He simply needs to keep improving, and if he does at the rate he has thus far, he'll be fine and worth 'carrying'.

I was a harsh critic of his 12 months ago when he got a few games, but his improvement in all areas has been rapid. Still makes a few errors per game and some almost-errors, but he's tracking fairly well.

If it comes to a point in the near future where others go past him, it's only good for us. Currently, he's important around stoppages at the moment for his courage, ball winning ability and most importantly pace.

[Remi Moses]

Liked his run and carry which are his best attributes .
There were some " nearly" moments when a decision only barely got to his attended target.
Definite upward scope, and from the outside looks an extreme hard worker on his weaknesses .
Agree with others that you can't carry to many average kicks in the side . He'll get his chance to cement a spot, and if his decision making and execution isn't up to it, his career won't be long

[Doc26]

That's fair enough.

Tell me how to raise the thread without using a player as an example and I will do it...but it needs to be 'about' a player because that is the nature of the question.


Lin has come a long way in twelve months, particularly in developing his endurance and disposal efficiency.

What next in the trajectory of his development ? How much is effective decision making such as positioning and smart ball use learnt through development and experience or is it simply an inherited attribute ?

I like to think that Beveridge coming out of the Hawthorn system, where positioning and smart ball use is king, will do wonders for the next stage of Lin's development. That is of course if this can be learnt which I believe it can.

I remain optimistic with Lin's prospects and excited to be able to watch the next phase of his development under Luke.

[bornadog]

I agree that Jong's decision making is not good. Many times I have seen him running towards goal and his first instinct is to hand pass the ball instead of having a shot himself, and handballing to a player who shouldn't have the ball. (eg last night last quarter handpasses to Honeychurch who is covered).

He has some great attributes and has improved immensely over the last few years, but he reminds me of a player who has come from a different sport and just doesn't have the football intelligence and awareness.

The question back to MJP, can a player be taught decision making and football smartness? If the answer is yes, then we continue to play him, otherwise, others will go past him.

[The Pie Man]

If his contest vs LeCras could've been better, he earned an opportunity for us to score (which Dahl took) with his burst from the pack just before qtr time in return.

Raw? Yep - but he's a project with huge upside. High pressure last night, needs more exposure those situations to grow as a player.

[boydogs]

Tell me how to raise the thread without using a player as an example and I will do it...but it needs to be 'about' a player because that is the nature of the question.

Use Koby Stevens as an example, he is a more experienced player with decision making flaws but other strengths

[1eyedog]

In the short term yes, but I think if he isn't able to improve on his obvious deficiencies then it may not be so clear cut .
I have some sentimentality towards him as my wife is Taiwanese and she is also a mad keen Doggies member. She is very proud to see Jong playing at the Dogs and we both hope he can continue to develop at the rate he has to date.
For what it's worth I think he can make it. For someone to have come from nowhere in such a short time it tells me he has a great ability to process and apply what the coaches are telling him.

Fair enough. I don't see the deficiencies you do. His kicking has improved out of sight and he rarely shanked one last night. He can continue to work on positioning and reading the play but so can half of our young team.

[Scorlibo]

Even Dale Morris would have struggled to find his opponent in the play you're talking about mjp. An Eagles player was left completely unattended in the centre of the ground, then another was allowed to run through the same space. The ball was flung from one end to the other in a matter of a few seconds.

I've been critical of Jong in the past but as others have mentioned, his progress has been pretty remarkable. I've no qualms with him making some errors if he can also burst through tight spaces like he did on a few occasions last night. It's more than just a 'full throttle approach', it's raw pace. He's the quickest bloke at the club. If he finds it 24 times a game, there's going to be some serious damage done to the opposition.

[soupman]

I'm a Jong fan but I also understand where MJP is coming from.

Regarding his positioning and defensive ability I agree that he doesn't always put himself in the best spot and unlike players like Morris isn't particularly clever with how he competes. H elargely relies on his athleticism and a combination of enthusaism and fearlessness and to his credit this usually works out alright for him. He doesn't stand out more than anybody else as being anything less than decent in contested work, whether that's as a midfielder or defender.

As for the LeCras example, watching the match live on multiple occasions I watched LeCras sneak further and further away from the ball towards his goal without being manned up. And our players were almost always aware. I'm assuming our defenders were told to ignore him in this instance and remain in whatever zone we were playing. I think the idea is that by playing a high defensive line it makes that final kick harder to get past our defenders, with worse consequences for us if it does. Watching the Collingwood match on TV it seemed our defenders were often playing well in front of their opponents which facilitated turnovers on multiple occasions and I wonder if this was from the same line of thinking.

As for his decision making I think that Jong often limits, rather than undoes, his good work with poor disposal choices. I too have been guilty of thinking he should kick when he handballs and vice versa, but generally it works out due to the breakneck speed at which play tends to unfold around him. Last night there were obvious examples of this, including when he handballed to a worse option instead of kicking for goal himself, but I think he will only get better. Of course against better sides this will not be so easy to get away with.

Much has been made of how far he has come, but it really cannot be said enough that his trajectory of improvement has been phenomenal. This is perhaps the hardest hurdle, to progress form VFL footballer to AFL, but he has already shown improvement in all the above issues, and atm in a side that is competitive he still justifies his spot if he can perform as he did last night.

[LostDoggy]

Can't really argue with anything said in the OP.

I think Jong deserves to keep his spot. The rate of improvement he has shown in 12 months in regards to his decision making and disposal has been significant.

When he stops showing improvement is when I would question his spot in the side. Another 12 months and we could have a serious player which would be a huge bonus.

[Bulldog4life]

Jong was one of our better players on Saturday. As long as he keeps that form up he will become a regular. He has improved every year he has been with the Club. Be interesting to know if Bevo would agree with this thread.

[SonofScray]

It looked bad because it was bad. He HAD to make body contact there. Having seen it from 'plenty of defenders' doesn't make it OK. Jong has great attributes but to me is given a free pass by supporters at the moment because his effort is seen to be high.

As an aside, to suggest his running swung the game is overly simplistic - his running is part of what helped regain/maintain our lead but so were the efforts of a number of other players.

I have a very different view, and feel that example you raised is a poor one. If you put any defender in that position (someone described it as "piggy in the middle") you'll get a similar result. To discredit his influence on the contest in one breath due to the contributions of others in one sentence, and then apportion that level of blame for his positioning on a play where the ball has come back with interest due to a turnover by a team mate doesn't sound reasonable to me.

Mostly fair points in the OP, he has some ways to go at this level but that contest was not a definitive moment in the game resulting from any deficiencies in his skill set.

[jeemak]

I agree that Jong's decision making is not good. Many times I have seen him running towards goal and his first instinct is to hand pass the ball instead of having a shot himself, and handballing to a player who shouldn't have the ball. (eg last night last quarter handpasses to Honeychurch who is covered).

He has some great attributes and has improved immensely over the last few years, but he reminds me of a player who has come from a different sport and just doesn't have the football intelligence and awareness.

The question back to MJP, can a player be taught decision making and football smartness? If the answer is yes, then we continue to play him, otherwise, others will go past him.

They can be taught not to do certain things. It makes them less likely to be a dynamic player, but it also makes them less risky meaning their deficiencies are hidden to some extent and their positive attributes can shine.

I have concerns over Jong's ability to improve upon areas we all agree are his weaknesses, and like everyone else he has a ceiling on how far he can go. To this point he has proved to some extent his weaknesses can either be covered or improved upon, and I think the former is eventually going to be the more likely outcome and he'll become a less risky proposition as time goes by.

Liam Picken is a good example of a player that has become far less risky in his play, and it's a credit to him and how he's been managed. I've been a critic of his over his career for many of the reasons I'm a chance to become a critic of Jong. But, as we develop there is a place for Picken and probably a place for Jong if they play within their limits, strive for improvement and justify their selection each week with their game day performances.

As we become a better side through our talent developing, it will be interesting to see how players like Jong and Picken can remain relevant and or large contributors to the team.

[The Underdog]

Use Koby Stevens as an example, he is a more experienced player with decision making flaws but other strengths

a) Stevens didn't play last night so didn't have the chance to prove you right
b) His disposal and decision making is streets ahead of Jong, probably as it should be, but it is.
c) yep, I'm probably biased but give me Koby running through the middle kicking to a leading forward or having a shot at goal 10 times out of 10

[jeemak]

Use Koby Stevens as an example, he is a more experienced player with decision making flaws but other strengths


a) Stevens didn't play last night so didn't have the chance to prove you right
b) His disposal and decision making is streets ahead of Jong, probably as it should be, but it is.
c) yep, I'm probably biased but give me Koby running through the middle kicking to a leading forward or having a shot at goal 10 times out of 10

I don't think boydogs was trying to knock Stevens.

Like pretty much every player on an AFL list with the exception of one or two per list (at best), Stevens has some weaknesses that he needs to spend his career working on.

[bornadog]

a) Stevens didn't play last night so didn't have the chance to prove you right
b) His disposal and decision making is streets ahead of Jong, probably as it should be, but it is.
c) yep, I'm probably biased but give me Koby running through the middle kicking to a leading forward or having a shot at goal 10 times out of 10

I think Koby's decision making is woeful. He puts his team mates under enormous pressure by handballing to them when they are about to get caught. The old days it was called hospital passes.

[SonofScray]

I think Koby's decision making is woeful. He puts his team mates under enormous pressure by handballing to them when they are about to get caught. The old days it was called hospital passes.

Agree. He has plenty of strengths but this is a glaring weakness in his game. We got terrific value from Jong last night, I'm not certain Stevens would have been able to be used in the same way.

[lemmon]

Purely in terms of Jong though (which I know is not the overall question) but don't the fairly rare attributes he brings to the side outway the negatives and make him one to persist with above a few others?

That vintage Chris Judd type ability to burst through a stoppage either receiving or winning the contested footy and coming out the other side into space is an attribute seriously few have. Griffen and early days Cooney were probably the only guys on our list who had that. At the moment Jong has the ability and perhaps Stringer possesses the explosiveness for it - even if we haven't see it yet, but apart from those guys its tough to find.

I don't think his kicking is much worse than someone like JJ nor his decision making too far behind Kobe Stevens, is definitely a player to persist with and we've been rewarded for doing that thus far

[Greystache]

a) Stevens didn't play last night so didn't have the chance to prove you right
b) His disposal and decision making is streets ahead of Jong, probably as it should be, but it is.
c) yep, I'm probably biased but give me Koby running through the middle kicking to a leading forward or having a shot at goal 10 times out of 10

The difference is in many of those 10 occasions Stevens would be caught while Jong broke clear. Kobe doesn't have anywhere near the pace of Jong.

I think this is the point that's getting lost in the example of Jong in the decision vs effort debate, Jong isn't just effort, he is blistering pace AND effort. It's the use of his pace that's emerged in his game the past 9 months, and it's something that makes him largely unique on our list. Effort and slow can make you a player type that can only be accommodated in small numbers (eg Daniel Cross and Mitch Hahn), break away speed makes you more flexible.

[1eyedog]

a) Stevens didn't play last night so didn't have the chance to prove you right
b) His disposal and decision making is streets ahead of Jong, probably as it should be, but it is.
c) yep, I'm probably biased but give me Koby running through the middle kicking to a leading forward or having a shot at goal 10 times out of 10

Well there are many posters on here who would debate your points and I'm one of them but you think Koby Stevens is a better footballer than I do.

I think this week against Richmond Jong will be selected by the MC before Stevens, Honeychurch, Hrovat and Goodes. He's got a bit of x factor, a turn of speed and if he keeps nailing them like he hit Crameri up at full tilt on Saturday night he'll continue to put himself before plenty of blokes on our list.

[The Underdog]

I think Koby's decision making is woeful. He puts his team mates under enormous pressure by handballing to them when they are about to get caught. The old days it was called hospital passes.

To be honest I think this became far less of an issue about halfway through last season.
I think his use by hand improved markedly.


Agree. He has plenty of strengths but this is a glaring weakness in his game. We got terrific value from Jong last night, I'm not certain Stevens would have been able to be used in the same way.

No I don't think he can be used the same way as Jong but I was more reacting to the continued effort to make the thread about a guy who I feel gets a worse rap for his disposal than he generally deserves when compared to others who seem to get away with similar mistakes. You also certainly can't fault his effort.


The difference is in many of those 10 occasions Stevens would be caught while Jong broke clear. Kobe doesn't have anywhere near the pace of Jong.

I think this is the point that's getting lost in the example of Jong in the decision vs effort debate, Jong isn't just effort, he is blistering pace AND effort. It's the use of his pace that's emerged in his game the past 9 months, and it's something that makes him largely unique on our list. Effort and slow can make you a player type that can only be accommodated in small numbers (eg Daniel Cross and Mitch Hahn), break away speed makes you more flexible.

I don't disagree, the ability to create separation from a contest is something Jong has that is lacking for us and something that Stevens doesn't have. Whether this matters if you just end up chucking the ball somewhere randomly at the end of it is I'm guessing part of the point of the thread.
Again I agree that Koby doesn't have Lin's pace & burst, although I believe their levels of effort are comparable but as it is my Quixotic task I seem to feel the need to defend Koby against the persistent narrative that I don't necessarily believe still holds true.

[SonofScray]

I would say they have a comparable level of skill by foot and hand, with Koby the more effective, attacking kick. Certainly a more assured forward option. Jong seems a better fit to the new gameplan from the narrow sample we've seen in 2015.

[jeemak]

Stevens has very unique attributes and way of playing the game, and similar to Jong it's because of his unique attributes that he was selected to be an AFL player in the first place.

I really don't see the need to compare the two in the context of this thread, other than to say they each have attributes that we need as a team and deficiencies that need to be worked through.

If we become the successful team that we hope we will, we're not going to be a team filled with perfect players. We had Tim Callan playing in preliminary finals for our club not very long ago, and I'd struggle to find a man/woman to suggest it was because he was in the team that we didn't progress to where we wanted to.

We just need to get these guys playing to their strengths, and minimising their weaknesses consistently. If it turns out that they can't do that over time, then they'll be replaced and we'll all move on with someone else to whip.

[The Underdog]

Anyway I reacted to an attempt to make this thread about Stevens, by helping to make it about Stevens, so I'll shut up now.

[jeemak]

Anyway I reacted to an attempt to make this thread about Stevens, by helping to make it about Stevens, so I'll shut up now.

Nah, keep getting stuck in!

[1eyedog]

Koby is way better above his head and is much stronger around the contest which is also exactly what we need following the defection of Griffen and the injury to Libba.

[stefoid]

I think Jong is ignorant, not dumb. Important difference.

[jeemak]

I think Jong is ignorant, not dumb. Important difference.

Stop being complex and high in the brow :)

[Remi Moses]

Good point re. Callan . The facts are you're not going to get every listed player with all bases covered, and the question will come whether we have to many poor kicks and decision makers . I still think it's skewiff with to many poor kicks and decision makers

[Stefcep]

The difference is in many of those 10 occasions Stevens would be caught while Jong broke clear. Kobe doesn't have anywhere near the pace of Jong.

I think this is the point that's getting lost in the example of Jong in the decision vs effort debate, Jong isn't just effort, he is blistering pace AND effort. It's the use of his pace that's emerged in his game the past 9 months, and it's something that makes him largely unique on our list. Effort and slow can make you a player type that can only be accommodated in small numbers (eg Daniel Cross and Mitch Hahn), break away speed makes you more flexible.

This is spot on.

Seems to me we have gone too far in lauding the grunts and the hard ball getters. The reality is that whilst a move might start there, its worth nothing without the outside players breaking away with the won ball and creating the actual scoring opportunity. Players like Jong who have explosive speed are a rare commodity.

[Stefcep]

Good point re. Callan . The facts are you're not going to get every listed player with all bases covered, and the question will come whether we have to many poor kicks and decision makers . I still think it's skewiff with to many poor kicks and decision makers

This was the first full game I've watched in about 9 months.

From what I remember back then, and what I saw yesterday, there has been a VAST improvement in decision making and foot skills

This game was played at a phenomenally quick pace, pressure was relentless, and for the first time in a long time the boys showed the quickness of thought and the execution by hand and foot to deal with it.

If both us and WC can keep that up, most opposition will know they've played a game.

[jeemak]

This was the first full game I've watched in about 9 months.

From what I remember back then, and what I saw yesterday, there has been a VAST improvement in decision making and foot skills

This game was played at a phenomenally quick pace, pressure was relentless, and for the first time in a long time the boys showed the quickness of thought and the execution by hand and foot to deal with it.

If both us and WC can keep that up, most opposition will know they've played a game.

With both sides hitting 73% disposal efficiency (different ways of going about it, mind) it really was a better than expected way to start the season in terms of matching our opponents and also giving the supporters something to watch.

I think each of our respective clubs will find it very difficult in coming weeks when we face solid opposition. It's a long season.

[boydogs]

a) Stevens didn't play last night so didn't have the chance to prove you right
b) His disposal and decision making is streets ahead of Jong, probably as it should be, but it is.
c) yep, I'm probably biased but give me Koby running through the middle kicking to a leading forward or having a shot at goal 10 times out of 10


I don't think boydogs was trying to knock Stevens.

I just thought Stevens was a better example than Jong of someone with a ball usage & decision making weakness but other strengths, because the discussion was getting too caught up in Jong still improving

It was good to see Tim Callan enter the discussion. Tiller, Addison, Cross & Hahn would be others who weren't the best ball users who had varying degrees of success forging a career with other strengths

[jeemak]

I just thought Stevens was a better example than Jong of someone with a ball usage & decision making weakness but other strengths, because the discussion was getting too caught up in Jong still improving

It was good to see Tim Callan enter the discussion. Tiller, Addison, Cross & Hahn would be others who weren't the best ball users who had varying degrees of success forging a career with other strengths

Hahn's a very good example on first thought, of someone that just bludgeoned an AFL career together, kicked a few goals and had an impact because of his strength related attributes, but failed to be close to the perfect player because of his deficiencies. On second thoughts however, he was also an extremely good one on one player when being defended, and extremely good at bringing others into the game because of the contested game he played. At his best, there wasn't a player in the competition that did what he did as well as he did.

I want players like Jong and or Stevens to be second thought players. Players with obvious attributes that are the hallmark of their careers on first thought, but also players that when you look back and think about their contribution you realise how much more they brought to the table aside from that. For Jong, I see pace, burst and players needing to get involved to be on the end of his work, as for Stevens, I see strength, creativity and finishing capability.

[ratsmac]

I really can't believe we are having this conversation about Jong. The kid has only played 11 games of AFL football for goodness sake, 10 of those as a tagger. Let the dust settle. To me he looks like a kid who is still finding his spot in the team and doesn't yet feel like he belongs, or deserves to be out there, just like many young kids starting their careers. A deer in the headlights. Some kids come in straight away and look like they have played 100 games already, and some don't. Give the lad time. Yes he has flaws in his game, but every one of those 11 games he has learned something and improved. What more can you ask? He is made of the right stuff and won't die wondering. If he continues to improve at the rate he has so far, he'll be alright and there will be a role for him to play in the team.

[1eyedog]

Just watched the highlight at 2.30 on the website. Jong is deceived by a kick on the inside while running hard to Le Cras on the outside. The ball didn't even go over his head. A great kick found him out. The incident is one of the most trivial things I've ever heard debated on this forum to be honest.

[comrade]

If Jong was 5+ years into his career and showing no signs of improvement, I would be concerned. The fact that he has come from a non footballing background and has shown rapid development over just 2 years gives me hope that by the time we are rising well up the ladder (next year and beyond), he'll have ironed out some of the deficiencies in his game and his assets will more than offset his weaknesses.

As it stand I think we can carry him for now. There are no perfect players (except BONTI!!!!) and it's the job of the coaching staff to give each player a role that suits them and build structures around those roles. I think we used Jong well on the weekend as that bullocking, speedy mid that breaks away from congestion.

I just watched the replay and yeah, there were times he hand balled when he should have kicked but Ryan Griffen used to do that too.

Not many players have the pace to scoot away from a contest like he does, especially in a game that was played at breakneck speed at extremely high intensity.

[Maddog37]

Just watched the highlight at 2.30 on the website. Jong is deceived by a kick on the inside while running hard to Le Cras on the outside. The ball didn't even go over his head. A great kick found him out. The incident is one of the most trivial things I've ever heard debated on this forum to be honest.


Agreed. I am just watching the replay and Jong was guarding space and got caught out. Not the first block to be outsmarted by the Frenchman. You don't want Jong playing full back anymore than you would want Dickson or Dal.

[F'scary]

Good thread and congrats to MJP for being prepared to venture into contentious territory. I don't have anything new to add as numerous posts have thoroughly dissected the issue raised. But I agree that Jong is a bit rough with his disposal skills, I think he has to be given time and opportunity to improve. He has come a long way from 12 months ago where he was unable to command a spot in the team. He got a couple of games in a 'run-with' role but looked completely lost in the seniors. He is now getting a game ahead of a number of players because he brings a truly serious burst of speed into the side and he is finding the ball (24 possessions, 8 inside 50's and 7 tackles on Saturday). He and JJ are complimenting the strengths we have in other areas with their pacey play. They were also among our best in the stamina stakes late in the game.

[always right]

And he hasn't plateaued. Looking forward to seeing if he can continue his upward trend. Let's have this discussion when we think he has reached his ceiling.

[westbulldog]

Jong is doing very well and has a lot of potential. To pan him after what, 10 or 11 games, is premature and unwarranted imho.

[Topdog]

And he hasn't plateaued. Looking forward to seeing if he can continue his upward trend. Let's have this discussion when we think he has reached his ceiling.

That means we can only discuss 5 players on our list. Would make for a very boring forum :)

[Topdog]

Jong is doing very well and has a lot of potential. To pan him after what, 10 or 11 games, is premature and unwarranted imho.

He hasn't been panned though. A question has been asked about our ability to keep him in the team with his obvious deficiencies.

[westbulldog]

He hasn't been panned though. A question has been asked about our ability to keep him in the team with his obvious deficiencies.

Quote from page 1 ""Lin Jong is not up to AFL standard with regards his football awareness and skill execution""

He is a 21yo who has played only 11 games. To suggest that is not panning him is akin to balancing a toothpick on a pinhead.:)

[F'scary]

Quote from page 1 ""Lin Jong is not up to AFL standard with regards his football awareness and skill execution""

He is a 21yo who has played only 11 games. To suggest that is not panning him is akin to balancing a toothpick on a pinhead.:)

One can take it as a "playing devil's advocate" argument to promote discussion.

[westbulldog]

And from Mark Robinson in todays Herald Sun ""2. The Js of the West

Johannisen and Jong, two players who have waited a long time, helped the cosmopolitan Bulldogs electrify Etihad on Saturday night. Jong had 24, seven tackles and a game-high eight inside 50s, while Johannisen kicked two goals in the third quarter when the Eagles had the ascendancy. "" Differing and robust views in the forum are healthy though. Go dogs. :)

[Topdog]

Quote from page 1 ""Lin Jong is not up to AFL standard with regards his football awareness and skill execution""

He is a 21yo who has played only 11 games. To suggest that is not panning him is akin to balancing a toothpick on a pinhead.:)

Which I believe to be a fair assessment. These are other quotes from the opening post

This is going to come off as hyper critical of one player - so please let me say in advance that it isn't intended that way.

My question is this. Is Jong's full throttle approach enough to overcome his pretty obvious decision making/skill issues? Do we believe these elements of his game will improve?

I happily acknowledge his effort and physical attributes are of AFL standard - his decision making and kicking skills are not. My question is, do we sacrifice one for the other and will he get better?


How can you ask the question without mentioning his weak points?

[1eyedog]

I didn't have any issue with the question at all, it is a good and pertinent discussion point. I think the backlash is part not differentiating between a query and a criticism - even though that was stated up front, as well as the piece of play that MJP used to highlight his point was probably not appropriate.

[Topdog]

And from Mark Robinson in todays Herald Sun ""2. The Js of the West

Johannisen and Jong, two players who have waited a long time, helped the cosmopolitan Bulldogs electrify Etihad on Saturday night. Jong had 24, seven tackles and a game-high eight inside 50s, while Johannisen kicked two goals in the third quarter when the Eagles had the ascendancy. "" Differing and robust views in the forum are healthy though. Go dogs. :)

Those 2 stats really highlight why he should stay in the side.

[LostDoggy]

Please, MJP, don't hesitate to make further posts in the future of this sort, because the discussion is exactly why I'm on WOOF.

[hujsh]

And from Mark Robinson in todays Herald Sun ""2. The Js of the West

Johannisen and Jong, two players who have waited a long time, helped the cosmopolitan Bulldogs electrify Etihad on Saturday night. Jong had 24, seven tackles and a game-high eight inside 50s, while Johannisen kicked two goals in the third quarter when the Eagles had the ascendancy. "" Differing and robust views in the forum are healthy though. Go dogs. :)

Does anyone know what he means by that description. The Bulldogs think that a person's worth is not defined by their nationality? They view the world from a global perspective? Or is it just a somewhat fancy way of saying we have players from diverse backgrounds?

[Topdog]

http://www.afl.com.au/match-centre/2015/1/wb-v-wce#

The video for Jongs incident is called "Classy Eagles do it easy"

[stefoid]

Stop being complex and high in the brow :)

Love me, love my brow.

[westdog54]

http://www.afl.com.au/match-centre/2015/1/wb-v-wce#

The video for Jongs incident is called "Classy Eagles do it easy"

If anything he's guilty of indecision.

[LostDoggy]

If anything he's guilty of indecision.

Agreed.

[F'scary]

Does anyone know what he means by that description. The Bulldogs think that a person's worth is not defined by their nationality? They view the world from a global perspective? Or is it just a somewhat fancy way of saying we have players from diverse backgrounds?

The thing is that most of the teams are "cosmopolitan" so it is as interesting a point as saying there are 22 players in the team. And isn't the line of thought old hat, anyway? Back in the 50's and 60's migrants and the children of migrants from non-English speaking backgrounds took up the game, caused comment, everyone got used to it and it was reflective of a changing country. Same now, no diff. Australia has benefited from migration, has needed migration and this will continue into the future if we are to maintain a sustainable economy, particularly since birth rates in developed countries trend towards being lower than replacement.

[always right]

That means we can only discuss 5 players on our list. Would make for a very boring forum :)

My point is......Jong is part way along an upward curve so it's difficult to talk about his shortcomings in terms of what we are willing to accept when he continues to show such improvement.

[hujsh]

The thing is that most of the teams are "cosmopolitan" so it is as interesting a point as saying there are 22 players in the team. And isn't the line of thought old hat, anyway? Back in the 50's and 60's migrants and the children of migrants from non-English speaking backgrounds took up the game, caused comment, everyone got used to it and it was reflective of a changing country. Same now, no diff. Australia has benefited from migration, has needed migration and this will continue into the future if we are to maintain a sustainable economy, particularly since birth rates in developed countries trend towards being lower than replacement.

That's all fair enough. I honestly wasn't sure what exactly it was he mean cosmopolitan though as it doesn't really fit the definition of the word as I know it. You're right that it's likely not a distinctive feature of the Bulldogs (though having both Taiwanese and South African players probably is) which only made it harder to know exactly what he meant.

[Topdog]

My point is......Jong is part way along an upward curve so it's difficult to talk about his shortcomings in terms of what we are willing to accept when he continues to show such improvement.

I know what your point was but seriously we have 5 players with over 100 games. Could add Crameri to that as he has been around a while and Dickson as he was a VFL player previously. Other than that they are all kids.

[Topdog]

That's all fair enough. I honestly wasn't sure what exactly it was he mean cosmopolitan though as it doesn't really fit the definition of the word as I know it. You're right that it's likely not a distinctive feature of the Bulldogs (though having both Taiwanese and South African players probably is) which only made it harder to know exactly what he meant.

look at the author and you will realise that even he doesnt know what he means. Probably found the word in a thesaurus and thought he should use it today.

[Happy Days]

Just on the OP; what percentage of AFL players have every facet of their game up to AFL standard? Ablett? Pendlebury? Buddy's overhead marking is barely VFL standard.

I don't think an (admittedly large) hole in Lin's game need be cause for such panic. He was clearly one of our best 10 on Saturday night, and his high level attributes at least will ensure he breaks even at this level. I've said before if he wants to be the player we all want him to be (Griffen), then his decision making and spatial awareness is what will stop him, but I don't think he can't offer something in his current form (I don't think anyone is saying he can't, either.)

Also worth noting that the attributes in question are generally ones which improve the more match time you get.

[LostDoggy]

Jongy has gone from shite tagger to important attacking mid in 8 months, he is a physical beast with speed to burn. Just keep playing him and see what he's like at the end of the year.

[Go_Dogs]

Watching the Hawks yesterday made me think of this thread, particularly given they are such a highly skilled, well drilled outfit. One of their players, Puopolo, stood out as being someone whose effort and determination is probably (or at least, historically has been) ahead of their skill level and decision making.

Puopolo has now reached a point where he's a fairly well rounded AFL player, but he's ultimately a role player who has been able to stay in the side, develop and forge a career based on his level of effort.

So to answer the question posed by the OP, I think yes - we can certainly afford to have a few players who have effort and determination as their key strengths, as long as they offer some other strengths which the team needs (ie. important strengths which are otherwise lacking). I'd say a few players, such as Harbrow and Dahlhaus, have forged careers (at least in the early days) based on effort and determination (as well as being quick of foot, and defensively minded - bit of a recurring theme). They have also continued to develop, become more rounded senior players, but initially they've got onto a list and got an opportunity in the senior side because of those attributes.

In reference to Jong, I'm satisfied what he brings, with his repeat effort and willingness to take the game on with speed, are enough to keep him in the side. If his development stagnates, it might not be enough to keep him in the side longer term, but at this stage, I think the development has been focused on giving him the confidence to take the game on, which we lack. Once he has proven he can do that, and do it consistently, then the other areas of his game can receive more attention. Not every player is going to be well rounded and some will take time to develop certain areas - however for team balance it appears we've been happy (at this stage) to concentrate on his strength because that is what we've needed most and is more achievable in the shorter term.

I think Bevo is a coach who reads the game well as far as structures and positioning (based mainly on observations from the Hawthorn defence) so presumably it's something he'll continue to instill in our team, both the offensive and defensive decisions which need to be made.

[Cyberdoggie]

I think he has clearly improved in most aspects.
The number of possessions he got is a clear indicator that he is getting more involved and is starting to run to the right spots and understand the game. I can accept for now that he still makes some bad mistakes because he offers plenty on the upside, and while I don't think he will ever be full proof in that area, as long as he continues to improve all aspects then he will be a valuable asset.

[choconmientay]

I also do not have issue with the question raised by OP but realistically we also need to look at our list and asses who could really replace Lin in the position he's currently playing and the dash and speed he provide.

I checked and listed the name of the players who are next in line if we could playing them before Lin and currently I could not see anyone standing out and Lin is still be the pick ahead all of them.

Until we have a better option, we should just stick with what we have and try to develop him to the next level.

Main list:
1 Jarrad Grant
2 Robert Murphy (c)
3 Mitch Wallis
4 Marcus Bontempelli
5 Matthew Boyd
6 Luke Dahlhaus
8 Stewart Crameri
9 Jake Stringer
10 Easton Wood
11 Jackson Macrae
17 Tom Boyd
23 Jordan Roughead
29 Tory Dickson
27 Will Minson
32 Michael Talia
38 Dale Morris
39 Jason Johannisen
42 Liam Picken

Questionmark:
? 46 Lin Jong

Next in-line but who is the standout?:
22 Mitch Honeychurch
44 Brett Goodes
25 Koby Stevens
7 Lachie Hunter
13 Nathan Hrovat
14 Clay Smith
28 Josh Prudden

Defender/Ruck/Parttime Forward
43 Jack Redpath
49 Ayce Cordy
15 Tom Campbell
18 Fletcher Roberts
30 Joel Hamling

Low on pecking order:
26 Declan Hamilton
31 Bailey Dale
33 Sam Darley
36 Matt Fuller
16 Toby McLean
19 Lucas Webb

Injured:
21 Tom Liberatore
35 Caleb Daniel
24 Shane Biggs
12 Zaine Cordy

Rookies:
20 Daniel Pearce
34 Jordan Kelly

[mjp]

I knew this thread was going to go crazy which is kind of why I posted it to be fair. As I noted in a later post, the defensive effort vs LeCras was not the greatest example of what I wanted to talk about (the handball vs kick decisions in the last q are what was driving me crazy) but it is the one I remembered in most detail...Westdog54 mentioned above that in the LeCras contest if he was guilty of anything then he was guilty of indecision - well, if you don't swing the bat it is still a strike and I maintain that there was only ONE decision to be made and it was to make body contact with LeCras - but again, that isn't really the thing that I wanted to talk about. It was game-sense and decision making with the ball in hand and when the closest attacking player to the player with the ball.

There seems to be a bit of a perception that I don't think Jong is worthy of his place in the team. This is simply NOT true. I actually admire a lot of what he did vs West Coast AND am more than happy to acknowledge his improvement. No stress there - players who are getting better are all fine with me. It's called coaching and hard work. But I still think that there is a 'line' there between skill execution and 'effort/enthusiasm' that gets blurry at times. I was perpetually frustrated at the criticism of Giansiracusa by Bulldogs supporters for not doing enough - even in games when he was our scoring assist leader - but this was because he tended to tread the 'other side' of the line. What he did well was perceived as skill-based and 'clever' and whilst I don't think he ever shirked a contest there just seemed to be a general feeling about him amongst supporters that he was a bit 'soft'. To me, players (including, but not exclusively Jong) get credit because they are 'hard at it' despite their skill deficiencies...others like Gia for example are almost criticised because they excel in that area. Others on the wrong side of the skill vs ‘toughness’ debate include Higgins, Eagleton…I am sure you can all thing of a few others.

If you don’t want to make Jong the example, go ahead and make Stevens the example if you like (but he didn't play so I didn’t want to do that). You could make Clay Smith the example. I used the Hahn example and others have followed with it. I have also read the Callan and Addison examples and tentatively agree with the use of Addison but not really with the Callan example…he was just a footballer who wasn’t quite good enough though I can certainly see how the argument could be made.

[boydogs]

I was perpetually frustrated at the criticism of Giansiracusa

MJP please, the thread is crazy enough as it is :D

[Before I Die]

I think the handball rather than kick examples in the last quarter are more indicative of the thread title. Le Cras also made Morris and M Boyd look stupid with easy balls out the back, so pinning one on Jong was a little harsh.

Dahlhaus and Honeychurch suffer from the same decision making problems. Grant probably falls into the opposite category (I will probably regret mentioning Grant because the next twenty posts will be about him), though the NAB game may have been a turning point.

It was never just one players fault, but two kicks without looking due to perceived and not real pressure from Dahlhaus in the dying minutes of last year's game against Melbourne could well have been the difference in our failed last quarter surge.

I don't think it is a question of Ball Usage and Decision Making or Effort, as the effort part is a non-negotiable. I do think that premiership teams can't afford poor decision makers or poor ball users. I guess Jong et al have 2 or 3 years to get it right.

[Stefcep]

Just on the OP; what percentage of AFL players have every facet of their game up to AFL standard? Ablett? Pendlebury? Buddy's overhead marking is barely VFL standard.

I don't think an (admittedly large) hole in Lin's game need be cause for such panic. He was clearly one of our best 10 on Saturday night, and his high level attributes at least will ensure he breaks even at this level. I've said before if he wants to be the player we all want him to be (Griffen), then his decision making and spatial awareness is what will stop him, but I don't think he can't offer something in his current form (I don't think anyone is saying he can't, either.)

Also worth noting that the attributes in question are generally ones which improve the more match time you get.


Did Griffen have this in spades?

[Happy Days]

Did Griffen have this in spades?

Griffen is/was a superstar and is far better at this than Jong, if that's what you mean.

[Greystache]

Griffen is/was a superstar and is far better at this than Jong, if that's what you mean.

I'd suggest he was referring to Griphyns spacial awareness, which isn't something I would regard as a strength for him. He wasn't especially adept at finding targets either in tight or in space, usually preferring to go long in the general direction of a target. His real asset was his pace, and his strength through his legs which allowed him to stand up in a tackle or break them on the run.

[1eyedog]

Griffen is/was a superstar and is far better at this than Jong, if that's what you mean.

Def but I can tell you that Jong's output and outlook far surpasses Griffon's when Griffon had played just 11 games.
Jong has many of Griffon's attributes. I'm pretty excited about Jong but not getting my expectations out of control.

[bornadog]

Def but I can tell you that Jong's output and outlook far surpasses Griffon's when Griffon had played just 11 games.
Jong has many of Griffon's attributes. I'm pretty excited about Jong but not getting my expectations out of control.

but at the end of the day, it comes back to the OP. Jong must learn decision making and footy smarts, or others will go past him. Have a look at someone like Hrovat. Extremely smart footballer. Will Jong make it? Time will tell and as Sockeye says, 20 game rule applies, so very early days.

[Raw Toast]

Def but I can tell you that Jong's output and outlook far surpasses Griffon's when Griffon had played just 11 games.
Jong has many of Griffon's attributes. I'm pretty excited about Jong but not getting my expectations out of control.

Can't quite let this one go, I'm afraid. Almost half of the clubs that then made up the AFL rated Gryphon as the best U18 player in the land, and his first season was very impressive (does anyone remember him destroying a 3rd or 4th year G Ablett Jnr while playing off the back flank?). I remember Chris Grant - a player a few of us remember from the distant past - raving about how nice it was to receive passes from the rookie off either his left or right foot.

Yes Jong has only played 11 games, but he's done it over a few seasons now and is in his early 20s. I love the rate of his recent improvement, and his burst especially, but he has serious deficiencies that need to be worked on, while Gryphon's biggest issue was that he'd never learned where to run to get easy possessions because he'd got the ball (and done whatever he wanted) at will in his pre-AFL career. IMO, Bontempelli is a better compared with the young Gryph (though of course we all hope he reaches an even higher level, and the team's surrounding both players do not seem that comparable at the moment.)

[1eyedog]

Can't quite let this one go, I'm afraid. Almost half of the clubs that then made up the AFL rated Gryphon as the best U18 player in the land, and his first season was very impressive (does anyone remember him destroying a 3rd or 4th year G Ablett Jnr while playing off the back flank?). I remember Chris Grant - a player a few of us remember from the distant past - raving about how nice it was to receive passes from the rookie off either his left or right foot.

Yes Jong has only played 11 games, but he's done it over a few seasons now and is in his early 20s. I love the rate of his recent improvement, and his burst especially, but he has serious deficiencies that need to be worked on, while Gryphon's biggest issue was that he'd never learned where to run to get easy possessions because he'd got the ball (and done whatever he wanted) at will in his pre-AFL career. IMO, Bontempelli is a better compared with the young Gryph (though of course we all hope he reaches an even higher level, and the team's surrounding both players do not seem that comparable at the moment.)

Griffon took a long time to come on as far as I am concerned. Always knew he had talent and appreciate how highly rated he was as a junior, his draft order confirmed that, but he was very inconsistent and failed to influence games until he had played 50 games or more. I'm not saying Jong is as good or will be as good as Griffon, far from it, I'm just making the statement that IMO what we saw from Jong on Saturday night (24 touches, 7 tackles and the most metres gained of any of our players) is superior at a comparable - read 11 games - level to what I saw from Griffon at the same stage. I also believe Griffon's field kicking was over-rated. Good penetration sure but grubbers more often than not.

Never be afraid of not letting something go.

[1eyedog]

Can't quite let this one go, I'm afraid. Almost half of the clubs that then made up the AFL rated Gryphon as the best U18 player in the land, and his first season was very impressive (does anyone remember him destroying a 3rd or 4th year G Ablett Jnr while playing off the back flank?). I remember Chris Grant - a player a few of us remember from the distant past - raving about how nice it was to receive passes from the rookie off either his left or right foot.

Yes Jong has only played 11 games, but he's done it over a few seasons now and is in his early 20s. I love the rate of his recent improvement, and his burst especially, but he has serious deficiencies that need to be worked on, while Gryphon's biggest issue was that he'd never learned where to run to get easy possessions because he'd got the ball (and done whatever he wanted) at will in his pre-AFL career. IMO, Bontempelli is a better compared with the young Gryph (though of course we all hope he reaches an even higher level, and the team's surrounding both players do not seem that comparable at the moment.)

He was averaging 13 touches a game in 2005, 2 tackles a game, 9 goals for the year, otherwise unremarkable. Again, my comments are influenced by my unabashed admiration for Jong as well as my disappointment in Griffon, no doubt. I'm more excited by Jong now than I was by Griffon then probably because we all knew Griffon would at worse be a good player. Jong has come from nowhere and seems to be maintaining a high level of intensity.

[Before I Die]

He was averaging 13 touches a game in 2005, 2 tackles a game, 9 goals for the year, otherwise unremarkable. Again, my comments are influenced by my unabashed admiration for Jong as well as my disappointment in Griffon, no doubt.

He was runner up in the Rising Star award that year and if not for Bartlett would have won it.

[LostDoggy]

He was averaging 13 touches a game in 2005, 2 tackles a game, 9 goals for the year, otherwise unremarkable. Again, my comments are influenced by my unabashed admiration for Jong as well as my disappointment in Griffon, no doubt. I'm more excited by Jong now than I was by Griffon then probably because we all knew Griffon would at worse be a good player. Jong has come from nowhere and seems to be maintaining a high level of intensity.

Dare I say from the clouds no less? ;)

[1eyedog]

He was runner up in the Rising Star award that year and if not for Bartlett would have won it.

Well that information throws my previous posts out the window then.

Never let a good story get in the way of the truth.

[stefoid]

Grif isnt the smartest player - quick, powerful and a lovely long kick on the run, but it took him 5 years to start hitting his straps. Jong by comparison will never be as skilled, but he may end up being a smarter player. Correct me if Im wrong but Grif was still playing as a flanker when he was Jongs age (21).

[boydogs]

Grif isnt the smartest player - quick, powerful and a lovely long kick on the run, but it took him 5 years to start hitting his straps. Jong by comparison will never be as skilled, but he may end up being a smarter player. Correct me if Im wrong but Grif was still playing as a flanker when he was Jongs age (21).

There was a lot of debate on here about him moving to the midfield, even after the move was made as he was only getting 20 touches a game at first and we missed his rebound. It took him a year there to really excel. He was playing many more games to a much higher level at a younger age, but not in the middle

[Maddog37]

Can't quite let this one go, I'm afraid. Almost half of the clubs that then made up the AFL rated Gryphon as the best U18 player in the land, and his first season was very impressive (does anyone remember him destroying a 3rd or 4th year G Ablett Jnr while playing off the back flank?). I remember Chris Grant - a player a few of us remember from the distant past - raving about how nice it was to receive passes from the rookie off either his left or right foot.

Yes Jong has only played 11 games, but he's done it over a few seasons now and is in his early 20s. I love the rate of his recent improvement, and his burst especially, but he has serious deficiencies that need to be worked on, while Gryphon's biggest issue was that he'd never learned where to run to get easy possessions because he'd got the ball (and done whatever he wanted) at will in his pre-AFL career. IMO, Bontempelli is a better compared with the young Gryph (though of course we all hope he reaches an even higher level, and the team's surrounding both players do not seem that comparable at the moment.)


I didn't know Grifton even had a left foot......

[Ozza]

I don't agree with this. I have said it before that our forward structure is unique and dangerous and it WILL create matchup nightmares for our opposition. Winning 12 games should not be considered out of the question...if we do that, we will be in the hunt for a top 8 position.

Look at Richmond. Tell me who they are going to play on Stringer, Crameri and Bontempelli if all three are forward? They are going to have an issue....Fine - Rance takes Boyd. Chaplin will obliterate Redpath. But if we end up with a Houli vs Stringer or something like that, it is going to end badly for Richmond.

One thing I will say is....Chaplin was the only player I watched over the weekend who was WORSE in one-on-one contests than Redpath.

I think it has gone under the radar to date, the degree to which - for a defender - Chaplin can't actually 'defend'.

[Mofra]

He was runner up in the Rising Star award that year and if not for Bartlett would have won it.
And he was younger than Jong by a couple of years.

Forget the way he left - Griff was a gun junior and Clayton would have taken him with the no 1 pick (as would a few others). Jong being compared to Griffen is flattering in the extreme.

[1eyedog]

And he was younger than Jong by a couple of years.

Forget the way he left - Griff was a gun junior and Clayton would have taken him with the no 1 pick (as would a few others). Jong being compared to Griffen is flattering in the extreme.

Not comparing as players just after 11 games i.e. their output for the club in their first dozen games. I'm not comparing talent or reputation at the same time.

[Stefcep]

My biggest criticism of Griff was his end product. Looked great bursting through the pack, taking 3, 4 bounces and then....too often an ineffective finish. I also question his decision making in taking opponents on and then getting caught when a simpler pass to a team mate was an option. (And no I'm not saying that because he left us, you can back years and see I've said it at the time as well).

On topic i really can't see how we can be critical of an 11-game 24 possession on-baller being caught out in defense against the games premier half forward in a lightning fats move.

I think what irks the OP is the lack of body on body contest at that moment, and he'd have a point if it was soemthing that happened all game every game for Jong, but it wasn't.

[Sedat]

And he was younger than Jong by a couple of years.

Forget the way he left - Griff was a gun junior and Clayton would have taken him with the no 1 pick (as would a few others). Jong being compared to Griffen is flattering in the extreme.
Yep, one was probably the best finals player we've ever produced in our clubs history and the other is a borderline best 22 player still finding his feet at this level.

By all means Jongs 'type' can be compared to Griffen, but I would suggest we would be delighted if he could get to even 50% of Griffen's capabilities (at his peak) as that burst inside/outside mid. And to even reach half-a-Griffen level Jong needs to become a smarter and more natural footballer in terms of game sense and decision-making - he certainly has some great physical attributes to work with. Of course Griffen from 30-34 and Jong from 21-25 is not apples with apples - if Jong can improve his game sense and decision-making, he potentially could achieve as much in the next 3-4 years as Griffen (if Jong's rate of improvement continues at the same level and if Griffen's age/injuries slow him down - both aren't out of the question). But it is a long way off at the present moment.

[stefoid]

My biggest criticism of Griff was his end product. Looked great bursting through the pack, taking 3, 4 bounces and then....too often an ineffective finish. I also question his decision making in taking opponents on and then getting caught when a simpler pass to a team mate was an option. (And no I'm not saying that because he left us, you can back years and see I've said it at the time as well).

On topic i really can't see how we can be critical of an 11-game 24 possession on-baller being caught out in defense against the games premier half forward in a lightning fats move.

I think what irks the OP is the lack of body on body contest at that moment, and he'd have a point if it was soemthing that happened all game every game for Jong, but it wasn't.

The OP is concerned with Jongs decision making and skills. Of course , if he had brilliant decision making and skills, we would be talking about him in the same sentence as Bonts, and laughing at how he was better than Griffen at the same age.

But against coasters there were probably 6 or 7 times when he burst forward with the ball and could have done something really damaging with it had he taken the correct option and/or executed correctly. And thats the problem...

...but as problems go, its not a bad problem to have is it?

[1eyedog]

From the website:

Explosive from the stoppages, it was Jong that launched his side inside 50m more than any other on Saturday night - eight times in total – on his way to an eye-catching 24 disposal game.

Most inside 50s to go with his 24 touches, most metres gained and 7 tackles. very Griffon-esque :D

[ratsmac]

Can't quite let this one go, I'm afraid. Almost half of the clubs that then made up the AFL rated Gryphon as the best U18 player in the land, and his first season was very impressive (does anyone remember him destroying a 3rd or 4th year G Ablett Jnr while playing off the back flank?). I remember Chris Grant - a player a few of us remember from the distant past - raving about how nice it was to receive passes from the rookie off either his left or right foot.

Yes Jong has only played 11 games, but he's done it over a few seasons now and is in his early 20s. I love the rate of his recent improvement, and his burst especially, but he has serious deficiencies that need to be worked on, while Gryphon's biggest issue was that he'd never learned where to run to get easy possessions because he'd got the ball (and done whatever he wanted) at will in his pre-AFL career. IMO, Bontempelli is a better compared with the young Gryph (though of course we all hope he reaches an even higher level, and the team's surrounding both players do not seem that comparable at the moment.)

Good post. I think a lot of us are still sucking on sour grapes when it comes to the former #16. He certainly was a complete footballer. He suffered from inconsistency early in his career but that was about it. We are a bit protective over Jong because he is one of our own I suppose. Jong does have some former #16 traits but I really don't believe Jong will ever get to the heights of the former #16 (happy to be proved wrong) but he wont die wondering.

[Raw Toast]

He was runner up in the Rising Star award that year and if not for Bartlett would have won it.

I know this thread is about decision-making in general, and Jong in particular, but the historian in me meant that I had some fun going back to some of the reports from Gryffon's debut year in 2005. He missed most of the preseason due to a knee injury, but after debuting in round 4, played 17 of the last 19 games of the season. Initially he played as a forward, sometimes even CHF, but moved to defence about half-way through the season and while his main role was to lock down the opposition, his run and carry became increasingly important.

His best game was against the Cats in R17, Gryffon's 12th game. Most media publications had him as best on ground, and raved about him as a star of the future - as I noted in my earlier post, he played on Gary Ablett Jnr, and though Ablett's stats were impressive (bolstered by some time on the ball), Gryffon clearly outplayed him - you can see him dance around Ablett at the 13:55 mark of this highlights package: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dv0Flx_WJQ; see also around the 15:00 mark and from around 20:33 where he outpositions Bartel and then sets up the sealing goal with a beautiful booming kick.

By the end of the season numerous journos were raving about him as the shining light of the Bulldogs season, and as 'Before I Die' notes, he only finished second in the Rising Star because the *unbiased* Kevin Bartlett couldn't find a place for him in his top 5 (every other judge had him first or second) which meant that Richmond's Deledio won (not that Bartlett has any historical ties to the Tiges). To be fair though, Gryffon also finished second to Deledio in the AFL Player's rookie award as well.

Here are a few quotes from the season for those of us who are nostalgic despite the bitterness of the ending (go Tom Boyd!):

* "The precocious likes of Adam Cooney and Ryan Gryffon have superstar written all over them."

* "When the Western Bulldogs started touting their third selection as the best player in last year's draft, few took them seriously. With apologies to Brett Deledio, we stand corrected. The pair will spend the next decade trying to settle that argument, and what a fight it promises to be, after Gryffon's display of all-round brilliance against the Cats."

* "MOMENTS that signify an arrival tend to leave a lasting imprint. Abba's featured a helicopter, Ryan Gryffon's two hours of wonderful, mature football that underscored why this player, his team and its long-suffering supporters have much to look forward to."

* "The 187cm Bulldog half-back slipped into AFL football as though he had been doing it for the past 10 years. Recruited from South Adelaide, his ability to tag, then run from half-back and sidestep opponents are his aces at the moment."

* "The Bulldogs possess one of the most promising young lists in the competition and several of its second tier of players came through in 2005. The improvement in Cross and Gilbee showed their potential but the talent of Ryan Gryffon, who finished second in the Rising Star Award, was the standout for the Dogs.

[Bulldog4life]

I know this thread is about decision-making in general, and Jong in particular, but the historian in me meant that I had some fun going back to some of the reports from Gryffon's debut year in 1995. He missed most of the preseason due to a knee injury, but after debuting in round 4, played 17 of the last 19 games of the season. Initially he played as a forward, sometimes even CHF, but moved to defence about half-way through the season and while his main role was to lock down the opposition, his run and carry became increasingly important.

His best game was against the Cats in R17, Gryffon's 12th game. Most media publications had him as best on ground, and raved about him as a star of the future - as I noted in my earlier post, he played on Gary Ablett Jnr, and though Ablett's stats were impressive (bolstered by some time on the ball), Gryffon clearly outplayed him - you can see him dance around Ablett at the 13:55 mark of this highlights package: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dv0Flx_WJQ; see also around the 15:00 mark and from around 20:33 where he outpositions Bartel and then sets up the sealing goal with a beautiful booming kick.

By the end of the season numerous journos were raving about him as the shining light of the Bulldogs season, and as 'Before I Die' notes, he only finished second in the Rising Star because the *unbiased* Kevin Bartlett couldn't find a place for him in his top 5 (every other judge had him first or second) which meant that Richmond's Deledio won (not that Bartlett has any historical ties to the Tiges). To be fair though, Gryffon also finished second to Deledio in the AFL Player's rookie award as well.

Here are a few quotes from the season for those of us who are nostalgic despite the bitterness of the ending (go Tom Boyd!):

* "The precocious likes of Adam Cooney and Ryan Gryffon have superstar written all over them."

* "When the Western Bulldogs started touting their third selection as the best player in last year's draft, few took them seriously. With apologies to Brett Deledio, we stand corrected. The pair will spend the next decade trying to settle that argument, and what a fight it promises to be, after Gryffon's display of all-round brilliance against the Cats."

* "MOMENTS that signify an arrival tend to leave a lasting imprint. Abba's featured a helicopter, Ryan Gryffon's two hours of wonderful, mature football that underscored why this player, his team and its long-suffering supporters have much to look forward to."

* "The 187cm Bulldog half-back slipped into AFL football as though he had been doing it for the past 10 years. Recruited from South Adelaide, his ability to tag, then run from half-back and sidestep opponents are his aces at the moment."

* "The Bulldogs possess one of the most promising young lists in the competition and several of its second tier of players came through in 2005. The improvement in Cross and Gilbee showed their potential but the talent of Ryan Gryffon, who finished second in the Rising Star Award, was the standout for the Dogs.

He is bloody old now then.;)

[jeemak]

I'm really shocked that we're discussing the difference between our previous captain as he started out on a half back or half forward basis in 2005, versus Lin Jong playing in 2015 in a tagging role and or a midfield role.

It's completely insane to compare these players on stats alone, or on their places in the respective set ups during the times they started their careers.

[Maddog37]

I'm really shocked that we're discussing the difference between our previous captain as he started out on a half back or half forward basis in 2005, versus Lin Jong playing in 2015 in a tagging role and or a midfield role.

It's completely insane to compare these players on stats alone, or on their places in the respective set ups during the times they started their careers.

It will be interesting to look back on if Lin keeps improving.

[The bulldog tragician]

I'm really enjoying this debate but its a bit unfair for The Former No 16 to be the benchmark for Lin. I'm interested in seeing how much he can improve, the graph is already quite amazing, but he is more likely in the end to be compared to guys like Boyd, Cross and Libber (though with heaps more pace!) as maximising a relatively limited skill set through sheer determination and heart.

That said, I watched the replay last night and his skills have improved out of sight (nice weighting on a pass to Crameri). In being too hasty to pass it off in the forward line he's continuing a time honoured Bulldogs tradition!! (It's always been a frustration that we go for one too many handpasses and no one wants to take responsibility for kicking the goal, but somehow I think Jake Stringer is going to single handedly change that).

[Mofra]

(It's always been a frustration that we go for one too many handpasses and no one wants to take responsibility for kicking the goal, but somehow I think Jake Stringer is going to single handedly change that).
Jakes loves it - I think Boyd will want that responsibility in time too.
I love it when Dickson has it - he's arguably the best kick for goal on our list.

[Ozza]

Jakes loves it - I think Boyd will want that responsibility in time too.
I love it when Dickson has it - he's arguably the best kick for goal on our list.

Is there an argument?!!

I would have Dicko head and shoulders our best.

[Twodogs]

I was pretty happy to see it was Dicko running in to goal to kick the sealer in last years Grand Final.
Actually I was delerious.

[bornadog]

Jakes loves it - I think Boyd will want that responsibility in time too.
I love it when Dickson has it - he's arguably the best kick for goal on our list.


Jake and Dahl prefer the snap. They really had the yips with their set shots.

[Remi Moses]

This is insane comparing Griffin to Lin .
Griffin taken 3 and Lin taken as a rookie who had major flaws ( still has flaws)
I'll agree that Lin has improved, but the comparison to Griffin isn't right.

[Mofra]

Jake and Dahl prefer the snap. They really had the yips with their set shots.
In Jake's case many of his shots are chances that other players wouldn't have created in the first place. He often snaps out of tight spots and often from lower % chances.
I know we'd all like Jakey to prove his conversion rates but I do give him credit for creating many of those low % chances in the first place.

[LostDoggy]

Jakes loves it - I think Boyd will want that responsibility in time too.
I love it when Dickson has it - he's arguably the best kick for goal on our list.

He has plenty of flaws to work through, but he's one of the best kicks for goal in the league, in my view. Grand Final, kick on the siren to win it, you'd hope it was Dead Eye.

Might go chase up some stats to see if I'm talking shit or not…

UPDATE…
http://woof-images.s3.amazonaws.com/tory-dickson-accuracy.jpg
Source: AFL Tables.

[jazzadogs]

He has plenty of flaws to work through, but he's one of the best kicks for goal in the league, in my view. Grand Final, kick on the siren to win it, you'd hope it was Dead Eye.

Might go chase up some stats to see if I'm talking shit or not…


Wow, that's massive. Knew he was a good shot, but that accuracy is huge. I wonder what the percentage is from set shots...

[Maddog37]

So did anyone else expect Jong to develop overhead marking as a weapon!?!?

[jazzadogs]

So did anyone else expect Jong to develop overhead marking as a weapon!?!?

His contested overhead marking reminds me of Daniel Cross. Certainly not a brand-new skill though, he was doing it consistently towards the end of the year in the VFL.

[boydogs]

So did anyone else expect Jong to develop overhead marking as a weapon!?!?

No but I definitely noticed it. Not only did he put his body on the line in packs, he actually held the marks too

I don't remember Griff doing that, just saying

[bornadog]

So did anyone else expect Jong to develop overhead marking as a weapon!?!?

He has been a good mark from the beginning.

[Twodogs]

So did anyone else expect Jong to develop overhead marking as a weapon!?!?


I thought he might, but not during last week.

[always right]

Jong has always looked to be a pretty solid overhead mark but it was even more noticeable against Richmond. It's why he could be an asset resting forward.....if the umpires actually pay his marks.

[Sedat]

Percy Jones one of the most accurate kicks in VFL/AFL history? That stat blows my mind!

[LostDoggy]

I think a fairer comparison for Jong would be Cooney. Cooney had that fantastic burst through speed. Yet we all know he was defensively poor (did not chase enough or get back fast enough). Cooney kept getting games despite this flaw. People were sold on the flashes of brilliance, yet I thought he had serious flaws. As good a player as he was, too often he was responsible for stopping play by going back to take his kick. He, in part, seemed responsible for our slow delivery from defence to attack. Too often his kicks were short or missed their mark. Yet we kept picking him. He was meant to be the link up player, and whilst this worked at times, it stagnated us as well.

I have been a fan of Jong's since his first game. I always liked his speed - he seemed to cover the ground effortlessly - and his marking and his tenacity.

I think it is fair to say that Jong can be likened to most international players that we have seen before - they are not natural to the game and sometimes seem to do the most awkward things. They don't always have that finely tuned finessing of the game - but what they do have - all of them that make it - is courage and a very strong work ethic. And with that they develop their talent to a point where what they offer is greater than their awkwardness.

I think Jong is being asked to be our distributor and link player (an inside wing man, no less!). He operates at break neck speed and can be prone to make errors because of this. But he does get himself in position to get the ball where others would not. And he does dispose of it where others might be caught. His first instinct is to handball....which I assume is under instruction. I will take getting 6 right out of 10 if the players know to cover for his 4 that go awry.

Jong does fumble the ball - he appears to have butter fingers at times - but you would have to assume that experience will eventually overcome this. As it is, his pace and endeavour helps him recover some situations.

I think he is a valuable and very important reason our play looks more fluid at the moment, even if he is responsible for some decision making errors.

Time will tell whether the negatives outweigh the positives. Just like the fantastic contested mark that he took (not paid), the getting deep forward or deep back, or bursting the pack at a stoppage, or waiting outside the pack to swoop on the loose ball......all of these show what a talent he is....after so few games......it seems to me that he doesn't have the polish of an early Cooney but he certainly has him covered for the sorts of roles that he is being asked to play.

[Twodogs]

Percy Jones one of the most accurate kicks in VFL/AFL history? That stat blows my mind!


Yep, the man who ran into an open goal and slammed it through for a point and then stood and argued with the goal umpire about whether it was a goal or not.

[Bulldog4life]

Percy Jones one of the most accurate kicks in VFL/AFL history? That stat blows my mind!

Didn't move far from the ten yard square either unless rucking.

[Topdog]

His kick in the first quarter into the F50 when we had a 2 on 1 was an example of bad decision making.

His runs get you off your seat though!

[LostDoggy]

He got caught holding the ball a couple of times. But I loved seeing his run and dare. He is getting much better awareness and not just giving the very first option. He is now backing his speed and elusiveness to find the best option, not the first.

[dukedog]

Love hearing everyones opinions. In this instance. OP, you have to understand good vs bad and team needs, where the kid has come from in the amount of time he has. its like comparing a kid that doesnt make the national draft and gets picked up as a rookie and makes the senior best 22. Look at the numbers of that stat. For example. Look into Bonts junior footy before being selected at 4. lots of clubs would have said no to the bont. Jong fits the team . Champion team. Not Team of champions.