Well Ruck Me.

[macca]

Bevo wants a Gawn/Dean Cox/ Luke Jackson/Natanui type.

Dean Cox was originally a mid who had an incredible growth spurt
Luke Jackson and Natanui are freakesh athletes.


Tall players who are atheletic , can run all day, agile , and a good mark . Ruck/mid , who can run back to the back line to protect the ball drop. Even when they are available, they are prone to injury.

Honestly these ruck types are 1/100 ruckman.

Hence why Minson had limited games in 2016, eventhough he dominated in the VFL .

What I don't understand is why are we not try get a Nankervis/Hikey/McInernerny(Brisbane) type ? They are doing their jobs, maybe Syd/Richmond they have different requirement for what is ruckman.

Even Darcy Fort is starting to settle himself into the Brisbane side.

Its a shame the game cannot accommodate the 195cm type ruckman who are agile, atheletic with good skills. We had one in Wayde Skipper.

[azabob]

What I don't understand is why are we not try get a Nankervis/Hikey/McInernerny(Brisbane) type ? They are doing their jobs, maybe Syd/Richmond they have different requirement for what is ruckman.

.

We tried to get Soldo from Richmond a couple of years back but that didn't come off.

For years we tried to lure Stef Martin - when he finally came it was too late.

I'd love Nankervis or a Ben Hudson type. Hunt the footy, hurt the opponent. Sean Darcy would look good in our jumper.

[Happy Days]

This is a really curious time for this debate to restart up. Tim’s been easily our best player (and the best ruck in the AFL) this season.

[macca]

We tried to get Soldo from Richmond a couple of years back but that didn't come off.

For years we tried to lure Stef Martin - when he finally came it was too late.

I'd love Nankervis or a Ben Hudson type. Hunt the footy, hurt the opponent. Sean Darcy would look good in our jumper.

Is there any one in the VFL that has potential ?

McInerny was recruited from the VFL and onto Brisbane's rookie list .

[azabob]

This is a really curious time for this debate to restart up. Tim’s been easily our best player (and the best ruck in the AFL) this season.

Are you new to the internet?

Team performance has been below average. Midfield is getting smashed defensively and English is a big part of it.

On Thursday night some of his efforts in the first half were bizarre. He was easily pushed off the ball during boundary throw in's and some marking contests.

[bornadog]

This is a really curious time for this debate to restart up. Tim’s been easily our best player (and the best ruck in the AFL) this season.

Only because on AFL360 last night, Bevo said, "Some people think I don't rate rucks"

[bornadog]

Are you new to the internet?

Team performance has been below average. Midfield is getting smashed defensively and English is a big part of it.

On Thursday night some of his efforts in the first half were bizarre. He was easily pushed off the ball during boundary throw in's and some marking contests.

Come on Aza, you have to admit he has been playing well. We can find faults for all players.

Player rankings comparing Rucks:



No. 1 for Disposals
No.1 for Marks
equal 3rd for tackles
8th for hitouts
1 hitout less for equal 2nd
5th for inside 50s
equal 2nd for Cont.Poss (1 off first)
equal 2nd for Cont. Marks (1 off 1st)
6th for clearances - 4th for stoppage Clr.
Number 1 for intercepts


Hopefully he continues in great form

[Stevo]

Only because on AFL360 last night, Bevo said, "Some people think I don't rate rucks"

In recent years we drafted Sweet and traded for Martin and let our ruck stocks get to the lowest point. He might need to have a bit more give with his shopping list.

[bornadog]

In recent years we drafted Sweet and traded for Martin and let our ruck stocks get to the lowest point. He might need to have a bit more give with his shopping list.

We have also brought in Lobb for the 2nd ruck role, plus we drafted Darcy.

[GVGjr]

We have also brought in Lobb for the 2nd ruck role

Power was adamant that we added Lobb to play alongside of Naughton so as you say he is a back up option but not a ruck man.

[bornadog]

Power was adamant that we added Lobb to play alongside of Naughton so as you say he is a back up option but not a ruck man.

Well I don't believe that is true, because we had Bruce. Lobb is already playing the second ruck role.

I have said in the drafting threads we should have drafted/rookied another young ruck for the future. However, we also have Darcy

From Club website:


Rory Lobb is officially a Bulldog after the Club successfully brokered a trade deal with the Fremantle Dockers in the final moments of the 2022 Continental Tyres Trade Period.

The Bulldogs secured the key forward/ruck in exchange for pick 30 in the 2022 NAB AFL Draft, and their future second round selection.


Lobb will add significant scoring power for the Dogs’ emerging forward line, and offer strong ruck support.

link (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/1236841/rory-lobb-arrives-at-the-kennel)

[azabob]

Come on Aza, you have to admit he has been playing well. We can find faults for all players.

Player rankings comparing Rucks:



No. 1 for Disposals
No.1 for Marks
equal 3rd for tackles
8th for hitouts
1 hitout less for equal 2nd
5th for inside 50s
equal 2nd for Cont.Poss (1 off first)
equal 2nd for Cont. Marks (1 off 1st)
6th for clearances - 4th for stoppage Clr.
Number 1 for intercepts


Hopefully he continues in great form

Stats wise he looks good - hopefully he can improve hitouts. I'm plesently surprised on contested possessions and contested marks.

On the flip side;

Gawn received 2 coaches votes in round 1
Marshall received 6 coaches votes in round 2
English received 2 coaches votes in round 3

It also seems his opponents are having an influence on the outcome of games.

We all want English to succeed me included; as he is the horse we have backed in.

[GVGjr]

Well I don't believe that is true, because we had Bruce. Lobb is already playing the second ruck role.

I have said in the drafting threads we should have drafted/rookied another your ruck for the future. However, we also have Darcy

From Club website:



link (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/1236841/rory-lobb-arrives-at-the-kennel)

This from the clubs website
(https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/1237043/power-were-happy-with-our-hand)

“We’re really happy – we achieved the objectives we wanted going in - obviously firstly with Liam Jones and bringing him in as a key defender, and also Rory Lobb as a key forward,” Power told westernbulldogs.com.au.

Power expects Lobb to be tasked with a similar role to what he had at Fremantle, while providing relief and support to the Bulldogs’ emerging stars.

“Rory had a really good year and finished top 10 in (Fremantle’s) best and fairest, so we just feel he’ll take the pressure off Aaron Naughton as a really experienced player,” Power said.

I get he can ruck on match day but clearly our plan is to play him as a forward. I don't think we can can say we traded for him as a ruck man.

[Danjul]

This is a really curious time for this debate to restart up. Tim?s been easily our best player (and the best ruck in the AFL) this season.
Sorry I don?t agree with the part in the brackets.

I was at the ground for the last two games and I had boundary throw-ins directly in front of me. In those Cordy went close to matching English, probably 45%-55%. Darcy Forte clearly was more effective than English, I was surprised that he was subbed out. I think it was a tactical error by Brisbane.

Around the ground English is sensational. In the ruck he is adequate. But if he has to do all the ruck work the team is not getting the maximum value from him. And what I have seen of Lobb suggests that he is not the solution.

[bornadog]

I don't think we can can say we traded for him as a ruck man.

Not first ruck - yes, but second ruck

[Sedat]

Around the ground English is sensational. In the ruck he is adequate. But if he has to do all the ruck work the team is not getting the maximum value from him. And what I have seen of Lobb suggests that he is not the solution.
The 2-game sample size of Lobb this season so far has been compromised by his ankle injury, but if he can get a clear run his ruck relief alone (even for 5-10 mins a qtr) will help Tim go from average to better than average at stoppages without detracting from his formidable weapons around the ground. It's not the ideal but Tim is clearly locked and loaded as our no1 ruck, and Lobb represents better support for Tim than we have had in the last 4 years (except for Stef Martin in early 2021 and for 6 qtrs in the PF and GF same year).

[Danjul]

The 2-game sample size of Lobb this season so far has been compromised by his ankle injury, but if he can get a clear run his ruck relief alone (even for 5-10 mins a qtr) will help Tim go from average to better than average at stoppages without detracting from his formidable weapons around the ground. It's not the ideal but Tim is clearly locked and loaded as our no1 ruck, and Lobb represents better support for Tim than we have had in the last 4 years (except for Stef Martin in early 2021 and for 6 qtrs in the PF and GF same year).

Not fussed about the ruck.

What I can?t tolerate is the fact that we are ladder leaders for selecting injured players. It?s a gamble, and that should only occur off the field.

I?m sure Lobb will recover soon and we will see what he can deliver, but it has been poor selection so far.

[GVGjr]

Power was adamant that we added Lobb to play alongside of Naughton so as you say he is a back up option but not a ruck man.

Sorry but I'm confused by your response.
Stevo stated we have only drafted and traded for 2 ruck man in recent years and your response to that included Lobb and Darcy.
Power states Lobb is a forward and will be used the way Fremantle used him (forward first and back ruck up option) and Darcy has never really rucked in his junior football and is very much a tall defender and/or forward.

Are you throwing those names into the response as examples of that we have traded and drafted more ruck man or are you adding them as back up options? Despite their height I dispute that they are ruck man by design.

[bornadog]

Sorry but I'm confused by your response.
Stevo stated we have only drafted and traded for 2 ruck man in recent years and your response to that included Lobb and Darcy.
Power states Lobb is a forward and will be used the way Fremantle used him (forward first and back ruck up option) and Darcy has never really rucked in his junior football and is very much a tall defender and/or forward.

Are you throwing those names into the response as examples of that we have traded and drafted more ruck man or are you adding them as back up options? Despite their height I dispute that they are ruck man by design.

They are back up no matter how you look at it.

Darcy already rucking at VFL level and a few stints in the first two rounds. Agree they are not PURE rucks.

[Bulldog Joe]

Are you new to the internet?

Team performance has been below average. Midfield is getting smashed defensively and English is a big part of it.

On Thursday night some of his efforts in the first half were bizarre. He was easily pushed off the ball during boundary throw in's and some marking contests.

I was unable to attend last Thursday, but I made a comment to my partner at half time that English had been below par. He was out rucked by Darcy Fort several times early in the game.

Tim did however play an excellent second half.

[bornadog]

I was unable to attend last Thursday, but I made a comment to my partner at half time that English had been below par. He was out rucked by Darcy Fort several times early in the game.

Tim did however play an excellent second half.

Yet he clearly won the Hitouts to advantage

Tim - 13
McInerney - 6

Fort - 4

Hitouts are nothing unless you do something with the ball.

[Bulldog Joe]

Yet he clearly won the Hitouts to advantage

Tim - 13
McInerney - 6

Fort - 4

Hitouts are nothing unless you do something with the ball.

I was referring to the first half as Tim being below par.
Anyone aspiring to be the best ruck in the comp should not be lowering their colours to Darcy Fort, which Tim did in quarter 2.

[D Mitchell]

Yet.....
Hitouts are nothing unless you do something with the ball. ...or stop Gawn and co from feeding their mids.

[bornadog]

...or stop Gawn and co from feeding their mids.

there are hitouts and hitouts to advantage. You are talking HTA - so agree

[Bulldog4life]

Yet he clearly won the Hitouts to advantage

Tim - 13
McInerney - 6

Fort - 4

Hitouts are nothing unless you do something with the ball.

McInerney is no mug either. Beaten Tim a number of times in the past.

[Grantysghost]

I was referring to the first half as Tim being below par.
Anyone aspiring to be the best ruck in the comp should not be lowering their colours to Darcy Fort, which Tim did in quarter 2.

Tim was leading the hit outs to advantage in the first half.
Actually I think he had 7 which is more than either oppo ruckman got solely (I get they shared their time).
Fact is : Tim was not being beaten in the ruck.

[Happy Days]

Are you new to the internet?

Team performance has been below average. Midfield is getting smashed defensively and English is a big part of it.

On Thursday night some of his efforts in the first half were bizarre. He was easily pushed off the ball during boundary throw in's and some marking contests.

My man I am the most aggressively online of anyone on this forum I am certain.

Timmy?s overall hit out numbers are around par but his HTA rate is just about league best of those that count (shout out to Bont?s 100% rate). It?s an incredibly encouraging development that I think all of us have been crying out for and I feel like a lot of these arguments to the contrary are more colloquial than exemplary of what we?re seeing or what?s reflected in the stats.

[JanLorMill]

Come on Aza, you have to admit he has been playing well. We can find faults for all players.

Player rankings comparing Rucks:



No. 1 for Disposals
No.1 for Marks
equal 3rd for tackles
8th for hitouts
1 hitout less for equal 2nd
5th for inside 50s
equal 2nd for Cont.Poss (1 off first)
equal 2nd for Cont. Marks (1 off 1st)
6th for clearances - 4th for stoppage Clr.
Number 1 for intercepts


Hopefully he continues in great form
All well and good but we were thrashed in two of those games, Gawn and Marshall were more influential in the results. The coaches votes say that. Tim had a good game Thursday but then only 2 coaches vote, ie our 3rd best and 5th best overall.

[Grantysghost]

Why everyone so down on my man Chili ? Even when he's leading our B and F he's copping it.

https://media.giphy.com/media/kyrd72DC2Iwfu/giphy.gif

[JanLorMill]

Why everyone so down on my man Chili ? Even when he's leading our B and F he's copping it.


How can he be leading out B&F? I know its different but only 2 Coaches votes, Bont got votes in the saints loss.

[Grantysghost]

How can he be leading out B&F? I know its different but only 2 Coaches votes, Bont got votes in the saints loss.

He's been our most consistent over the 3 games.

Some stats from AFL site :

https://i.postimg.cc/QCGRFJSN/english.jpg (https://postimg.cc/hzsCwxHN)

[JanLorMill]

He's been our most consistent over the 3 games.

Some stats from AFL site :

https://i.postimg.cc/QCGRFJSN/english.jpg (https://postimg.cc/hzsCwxHN)
Thats great!
Our coaches vote for the B&F not the stats. If our main coach has given him possibly a max of 2 votes in 1 game and Bont has a BOG and a 4 vote week, I'd say he is leading the B&F.

[Grantysghost]

Thats great!
Our coaches vote for the B&F not the stats. If our main coach has given him possibly a max of 2 votes in 1 game and Bont has a BOG and a 4 vote week, I'd say he is leading the B&F.

Fair point.

We shall see at the end of the year, I think we've nominated the two most likely.

[jazzadogs]

I thought English was excellent in round one. Gawn was better...but he is rarely beaten.

I think his ruckwork has improved considerably, but so has his overall game. If you focus on the 10 things he does incredibly well, rather than the 1 thing he is average at, you will enjoy his work a lot more.

[bornadog]

All well and good but we were thrashed in two of those games, Gawn and Marshall were more influential in the results. The coaches votes say that. Tim had a good game Thursday but then only 2 coaches vote, ie our 3rd best and 5th best overall.
Stats don’t lie

[GVGjr]

Stats don’t lie

Well they can paint an inaccurate picture. They're are often not the end of the discussion.
I think English has been excellent but you can't always trust stats in measuring his output.

[1eyedog]

All well and good but we were thrashed in two of those games, Gawn and Marshall were more influential in the results. The coaches votes say that. Tim had a good game Thursday but then only 2 coaches vote, ie our 3rd best and 5th best overall.

That's all Tim's fault I know. Certain Tim got the better of Marshall on the night. I might be wrong.

Imo Tim would be almost leading our B&F at the moment.

Certainly going ok in the WOOF players awards as well so we're clearly all on board. Scored heavily this week as well and will go outright with Bont when Bulldog Joe collates the votes.

[bornadog]

Well they can paint an inaccurate picture. They're are often not the end of the discussion.
I think English has been excellent but you can't always trust stats in measuring his output.

Yes I know that but when people try to rely on just their perception then stats must come in like the Hitouts to advantage.

[jazzadogs]

Thats great!
Our coaches vote for the B&F not the stats. If our main coach has given him possibly a max of 2 votes in 1 game and Bont has a BOG and a 4 vote week, I'd say he is leading the B&F.

The b&f also doesn't include opposition players or opposition coaches votes, so we really have no idea who our coaches thought played well in round 1 (no Bulldogs) or round 2 (Bont got 4, which could have been as low as one vote).

It's not crazy to say Bont would be leading the b&f. It's also not crazy to say that Tim is leading the b&f.

[1eyedog]

Yes I know that but when people try to rely on just their perception then stats must come in like the Hitouts to advantage.

People provide a plethora of stats for other ruckmen to argue against Tim but are fine with their perception when it comes to actually rating how he is going. I would have thought the HO to advantage against the Lions in the first half would have been a really crucial and relatively straight forward stat to at least mention?

[Bulldog Joe]

Stats don’t lie

There is an old quote from Benjamin D'Israeli

"There are lies, there are damned lies and there are statistics."


Statistics generally are misleading and need a logical interpretation. Anyone relying solely on stats are happy to be deluded.

[Bulldog Joe]

Tim was leading the hit outs to advantage in the first half.
Actually I think he had 7 which is more than either oppo ruckman got solely (I get they shared their time).
Fact is : Tim was not being beaten in the ruck.

That is the stats, but Tim was comprehensively beaten for a period in quarter 2 by Darcy Fort.

I actually liked Tim's game and thought he was a big part of the win. Maybe he needed a spell, but I thought he was below par at half time, regardless of the stats.

[jeemak]

Stats are only useful to the person using them to make a point. To everyone else they're irrelevant and we should just accept that.

[Grantysghost]

Stats are only useful to the person using them to make a point. To everyone else they're irrelevant and we should just accept that.

They also say you're most likely to murdered by someone you know on Christmas day.

So... You know...

That.

[JanLorMill]

I thought English was excellent in round one. Gawn was better...but he is rarely beaten.

We lost by 50 points, Gawn played a major part in that. He was in career form coming into the 21GF and he was nullified, and we were in front until the other ruck got us.

I know what I prefer.

[JanLorMill]

Stats don?t lie
They do in the coaches votes.

[JanLorMill]

That's all Tim's fault I know. Certain Tim got the better of Marshall on the night. I might be wrong.

Imo Tim would be almost leading our B&F at the moment.

Certainly going ok in the WOOF players awards as well so we're clearly all on board. Scored heavily this week as well and will go outright with Bont when Bulldog Joe collates the votes.
Tim shaded Marshall in stats, but Marshall far more influential the result. We lost by 50 remember.

[JanLorMill]

The b&f also doesn't include opposition players or opposition coaches votes, so we really have no idea who our coaches thought played well in round 1 (no Bulldogs) or round 2 (Bont got 4, which could have been as low as one vote).

It's not crazy to say Bont would be leading the b&f. It's also not crazy to say that Tim is leading the b&f.
Yes Bont got 5 by both coaches this week and vs saints I believe both coaches gave him votes as well. If Tim polls more votes in either of those games from our other coaches, something is wrong.

[jazzadogs]

We lost by 50 points, Gawn played a major part in that. He was in career form coming into the 21GF and he was nullified, and we were in front until the other ruck got us.

I know what I prefer.

Whether he's coming first or second, the point remains that he has had an excellent start to the season.

I felt that a lot of Gawns influence was when he was either playing a kick behind the play (which barely any team would man up, as they would have their own ruck a kick behind the play) or forward (not against Tim). Their midfield of Petracca and Oliver, as well as their general pressure and our appalling turnovers, cost us that game.

English has comfortably been in our top 5 players each week this season.

[1eyedog]

Tim shaded Marshall in stats, but Marshall far more influential the result. We lost by 50 remember.

How is that Tim's fault then? This is what I mean even when he beats his man he is still blamed for the result.

Anyway most of us are onboard he seems to be doing OK in the Woof player awards as an outright leader with Bont.

[Sedat]

How is that Tim's fault then? This is what I mean even when he beats his man he is still blamed for the result.

Anyway most of us are onboard he seems to be doing OK in the Woof player awards as an outright leader with Bont.
I haven't seen enough of our games this year but Tim's problem wes never with the lumbering clydesdale ruckman (which Fort could be categorised as). He has eaten these types for breakfast in the past. His problem has been with the great stoppage ruckmen - he has regularly fallen well short of the mark against these types and it has been very costly for us over the last few years in critical games (H&A and finals).

I maintain that if Tim (with better secondary support from Lobb) can unlock the secret to nullifying (and heaven forbid, even beating) the best stoppage ruckmen in the game, we are in this season and future seasons up to our eyeballs - that's how important his continued improvement at stoppage is to our premiership chances, and we absolutely need a return on 4+ years of significant investment so far if we are to contend in the next few years. I hope he continues to turn this corner - massive test this week against Nank.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I haven't seen enough of our games this year but Tim's problem wes never with the lumbering clydesdale ruckman (which Fort could be categorised as). He has eaten these types for breakfast in the past. His problem has been with the great stoppage ruckmen - he has regularly fallen well short of the mark against these types and it has been very costly for us over the last few years in critical games (H&A and finals).

I maintain that if Tim (with better secondary support from Lobb) can unlock the secret to nullifying (and heaven forbid, even beating) the best stoppage ruckmen in the game, we are in this season and future seasons up to our eyeballs - that's how important his continued improvement at stoppage is to our premiership chances, and we absolutely need a return on 4+ years of significant investment so far if we are to contend in the next few years. I hope he continues to turn this corner - massive test this week against Nank.

Right there with you.

I've been on the super critical train of English, but I do think he has had a good start to the year. His job has been made all the more difficult by our midfield group being completely outplayed in the first two weeks, but he had moments in both games where he wrestled momentum our way. He was very good again vs Brisbane - nobody expects him to dominate every minute/quarter given he isn't playing against incapable opposition week to week - there was a period in the second quarter where he was getting beaten, but he turned it around in the second half which was pivotal.

As you mentioned, another good test v Nank.

[Happy Days]

I haven't seen enough of our games this year but Tim's problem wes never with the lumbering clydesdale ruckman (which Fort could be categorised as). He has eaten these types for breakfast in the past. His problem has been with the great stoppage ruckmen - he has regularly fallen well short of the mark against these types and it has been very costly for us over the last few years in critical games (H&A and finals).

I maintain that if Tim (with better secondary support from Lobb) can unlock the secret to nullifying (and heaven forbid, even beating) the best stoppage ruckmen in the game, we are in this season and future seasons up to our eyeballs - that's how important his continued improvement at stoppage is to our premiership chances, and we absolutely need a return on 4+ years of significant investment so far if we are to contend in the next few years. I hope he continues to turn this corner - massive test this week against Nank.

Spot on. Nank is the exact sort of ruck that Timmy has been food for previously (50m goals on the run notwithstanding). If he continues his form this week then we can maybe finally start to believe in him full time.

[Stevo]

Does anyone know if any of the Footscray listed boys are genuine rucks?
I hate seeing Khamis doing ruck work when he played junior football as half back flanker and somehow at the senior level he is being asked to back up English or Sweet.

[JanLorMill]

How is that Tim's fault then? This is what I mean even when he beats his man he is still blamed for the result.

Anyway most of us are onboard he seems to be doing OK in the Woof player awards as an outright leader with Bont.
Simple it’s our ruck vs their ruck. He didn’t beat Gawn and he just shaded Marshall in stats but Marshall was more influential as both coached agreed. I agree he has good individual start but in the first 2 games it meant little.
I not saying it’s all Tim’s fault anyway but if the opposition ruck dominates, who is he dominating?

[Smads57]

Does anyone know if any of the Footscray listed boys are genuine rucks?
I hate seeing Khamis doing ruck work when he played junior football as half back flanker and somehow at the senior level he is being asked to back up English or Sweet.

We have two VFL ruck options - both are 200cm tall. They are Josh Patullo and the recently recruited Riley Smith. Neither have been selected to play in games this season so far.

[bulldogtragic]

Bevo happy much?

Tim/Rory vs Nank/Ryan

3.1 Goals vs 1.0
34 Disposals vs 22
11 Marks vs 2
10 Tackles vs 8
6 I50 vs 1
12 Score Inv. vs 8
85 & 94 TOG vs 75 & 73
35 Hit Outs to 45

[AshMac]

Bevo happy much?

Tim/Rory vs Nank/Ryan

3.1 Goals vs 1.0
34 Disposals vs 22
11 Marks vs 2
10 Tackles vs 8
6 I50 vs 1
12 Score Inv. vs 8
85 & 94 TOG vs 75 & 73
35 Hit Outs to 45

I thought Lobb played well in the ruck yesterday - for the first time it felt we weren?t exposed when English wasn?t there.

For me, Tim has finally got that early 2021 form back since that bad concussion and is starting to string together good games consistently over 4 qtrs.

On this trajectory he?ll be the best ruckman in the league next year

[Happy Days]

I’ve been a big critic of Tim but he’s clearly gone to the next level. His tap work remains quality over quantity but his HTA rate is staggering so far, against some very quality opposition. He’s the front runner for the AA ruck spot and our B&F and he deserves a ton of praise for that.

Lobb hasn’t had the impact I was expecting but he hasn’t needed to.

[bornadog]

bevo happy much?

Tim/rory vs nank/ryan

3.1 goals vs 1.0
34 disposals vs 22
11 marks vs 2
10 tackles vs 8
6 i50 vs 1
12 score inv. Vs 8
85 & 94 tog vs 75 & 73
35 hit outs to 45

11 hta 10

[Jasper]

Stats are only useful to the person using them to make a point. To everyone else they're irrelevant and we should just accept that.

Stats are too often used to defend a point of view. Its often not needed.

[bornadog]

Stats are too often used to defend a point of view. Its often not needed.

With rucking, stats can be useful to prove a point.

If you say, someone had 40 hitouts, can sound misleading because it can assume the ruckman was dominant, but if only 5 are to advantage then it is not so good. So depends how you use and explain the stats.

[josie]

I was doubtful English would make it as a top notch ruckman. I?m very happy to eat my words. Bravo Timmy. After all the development and support we?ve shown I hope he re-signs with us.

[Danjul]

I was doubtful English would make it as a top notch ruckman. I?m very happy to eat my words. Bravo Timmy. After all the development and support we?ve shown I hope he re-signs with us.
The problem with English in the number one ruck spot was he was put in the role years too early and given no real support.

His around the ground work has always been excellent but now his development has reached the stage where his ruck work is formidable even against the big bodies.

Most people expected him to get to this level, right back to the day he joined us. Great to see him get there, although parts of the evolution were frustrating.

[bornadog]

The problem with English in the number one ruck spot was he was put in the role years too early and given no real support.

His around the ground work has always been excellent but now his development has reached the stage where his ruck work is formidable even against the big bodies.

Most people expected him to get to this level, right back to the day he joined us. Great to see him get there, although parts of the evolution were frustrating.

Most people also forgot he was a young buck and is now starting to mature.

[1eyedog]

The problem with English in the number one ruck spot was he was put in the role years too early and given no real support.

His around the ground work has always been excellent but now his development has reached the stage where his ruck work is formidable even against the big bodies.

Most people expected him to get to this level, right back to the day he joined us. Great to see him get there, although parts of the evolution were frustrating.

Would he be here now if we didn't? We'll never know.

[westdog54]

So last night the two main ruckmen were the 2nd (English) and 5th (Darcy) highest ranked players on the ground.

What did we make of the contest? Clearly Darcy got his hands to more ball ups/throw-ins but English did not damage around the ground.

Are hit outs over-weighted in fantasy footy scoring?

[jazzadogs]

So last night the two main ruckmen were the 2nd (English) and 5th (Darcy) highest ranked players on the ground.

What did we make of the contest? Clearly Darcy got his hands to more ball ups/throw-ins but English did not damage around the ground.

Are hit outs over-weighted in fantasy footy scoring?

Only if you use them to judge the quality of a player.

I thought both were really good, and agree with your summary. Given our clearance dominance you would have to say that Darcy's hitouts didn't hurt us.

[westdog54]

Only if you use them to judge the quality of a player.

I thought both were really good, and agree with your summary. Given our clearance dominance you would have to say that Darcy's hitouts didn't hurt us.

It is genuinely weird when two players opposed to each other are both considered among the best afield.

[jeemak]

It is genuinely weird when two players opposed to each other are both considered among the best afield.

Final round of 1996..........

[westdog54]

Final round of 1996..........

I've tried to erase 96 from my memory (I was 13). Refresh my memory?

[jeemak]

I've tried to erase 96 from my memory (I was 13). Refresh my memory?

Chris Grant got two Brownlow votes and you know who got three.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=528

They spent a bit of the day on each other across the Bombres half forward line as well, if I recall.

[westdog54]

Chris Grant got two Brownlow votes and you know who got three.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=528

They spent a bit of the day on each other across the Bombres half forward line as well, if I recall.

I knew about the Brownlow votes but didn't realise they'd played on each other.

[jeemak]

I knew about the Brownlow votes but didn't realise they'd played on each other.

I could have made that up, but I'm pretty sure they did.

[bornadog]

Only if you use them to judge the quality of a player.

I thought both were really good, and agree with your summary. Given our clearance dominance you would have to say that Darcy's hitouts didn't hurt us.

Darcy had 13 HTA and Tim 7, but of course Tim was more dominant around the ground.

[Happy Days]

Darcy was really good but disappeared in the second half. I really like him as a player because he’s just fat enough and young enough in the face to remind me of myself playing ruck in under 13s.

[bornadog]

Darcy was really good but disappeared in the second half. I really like him as a player because he’s just fat enough and young enough in the face to remind me of myself playing ruck in under 13s.

He has stacked it on.

[jazzadogs]

He has stacked it on.

There he is! Theres not an extra kilo in the AFL that gets missed by our man! ;)

[macca]

There he is! Theres not an extra kilo in the AFL that gets missed by our man! ;)

Has he been eating the same pies as Mumford ?

[bornadog]

There he is! Theres not an extra kilo in the AFL that gets missed by our man! ;)

:D

https://www.standard.net.au/images/transform/v1/crop/frm/fdcx/doc71f4qcnrab41zib7nxc.jpg/r0_0_4990_3327_w4990_h3327_fmax.jpg

[azabob]

:D

https://www.standard.net.au/images/transform/v1/crop/frm/fdcx/doc71f4qcnrab41zib7nxc.jpg/r0_0_4990_3327_w4990_h3327_fmax.jpg

Isn’t this photo from last year?

[bornadog]

Isn’t this photo from last year?

He is bigger now :D

[westbulldog]

Darcy might be carrying 1-2kg extra but as a skilled ruckman we would have him anyday.

[jeemak]

I feel bad for BAD because I called out Darcy last week or the one before in the awesome kit they were wearing.

[jeemak]

Darcy might be carrying 1-2kg extra but as a skilled ruckman we would have him anyday.

Have some fun mate......Body shame him!!!!

In honesty, someone of that size he's about five to six over. BAD only needs 2-3 to shame him.

[Dogs 24/7]

There he is! Theres not an extra kilo in the AFL that gets missed by our man! ;)

Hes running a ruler over every player. I wouldnt say its the most productive of hobbies but hes our version of a fat shaming paparazzi. :)

[bornadog]

Have some fun mate......Body shame him!!!!

In honesty, someone of that size he's about five to six over. BAD only needs 2-3 to shame him.

He is a big boy, but a bloody good ruckman

[bulldogtragic]

My love letter/post to Bevo:

Get rid of the idea of rucks. Looking at Darcy, play him in defence.

Now just have a 205cm+ defender, forward and a mid to contest ruck contests.

Darcy in the back 50, Lobb in the forward 50 (Croft when he retires), English as a midfielder who goes where he thinks he’s most needed.

Don’t play rucks anymore. Don’t recruit 1st ruck workhorse types. Just get them to contest and move back into their roles. I’ve come around after seeing Darcy yesterday. He can take a few contests a quarter. Play English as a ruck/rover with the freedom to set up where he thinks he’s needed/can do the most damage.

Time to change the paradigm.

[ledge]

My love letter/post to Bevo:

Get rid of the idea of rucks. Looking at Darcy, play him in defence.

Now just have a 205cm+ defender, forward and a mid to contest ruck contests.

Darcy in the back 50, Lobb in the forward 50 (Croft when he retires), English as a midfielder who goes where he thinks he’s most needed.

Don’t play rucks anymore. Don’t recruit 1st ruck workhorse types. Just get them to contest and move back into their roles. I’ve come around after seeing Darcy yesterday. He can take a few contests a quarter. Play English as a ruck/rover with the freedom to set up where he thinks he’s needed/can do the most damage.

Time to change the paradigm.

I am a massive fan on DArcy , once he builds his body he could be anything . Looking at the photos he is tracking well.
We have been blessed we have time to build these kids eg Jamarra and no doubt Croft .

[bornadog]

My love letter/post to Bevo:

Get rid of the idea of rucks. Looking at Darcy, play him in defence.

Now just have a 205cm+ defender, forward and a mid to contest ruck contests.

Darcy in the back 50, Lobb in the forward 50 (Croft when he retires), English as a midfielder who goes where he thinks he’s most needed.

Don’t play rucks anymore. Don’t recruit 1st ruck workhorse types. Just get them to contest and move back into their roles. I’ve come around after seeing Darcy yesterday. He can take a few contests a quarter. Play English as a ruck/rover with the freedom to set up where he thinks he’s needed/can do the most damage.

Time to change the paradigm.

I agree with this - it is the way forward

[Testekill]

The good thing is that we're in a great position to have a capable ruck in each section of the ground; Lobb (Darcy once he retires), English, Darcy (Croft once Darcy moves forward and he develops). Hopefully we get in Mitch's ear about taking another year away from football next year and then sign him as a cat B rookie as he's another athletic tall who could play ruck.

[josie]

My love letter/post to Bevo:

Get rid of the idea of rucks. Looking at Darcy, play him in defence.

Now just have a 205cm+ defender, forward and a mid to contest ruck contests.

Darcy in the back 50, Lobb in the forward 50 (Croft when he retires), English as a midfielder who goes where he thinks he’s most needed.

Don’t play rucks anymore. Don’t recruit 1st ruck workhorse types. Just get them to contest and move back into their roles. I’ve come around after seeing Darcy yesterday. He can take a few contests a quarter. Play English as a ruck/rover with the freedom to set up where he thinks he’s needed/can do the most damage.

Time to change the paradigm.

At min it’s worth a try. I can see Bevo thinking of it and trialling it.

[mjp]

My love letter/post to Bevo:

Get rid of the idea of rucks. Looking at Darcy, play him in defence.

Now just have a 205cm+ defender, forward and a mid to contest ruck contests.

Darcy in the back 50, Lobb in the forward 50 (Croft when he retires), English as a midfielder who goes where he thinks he’s most needed.

Don’t play rucks anymore. Don’t recruit 1st ruck workhorse types. Just get them to contest and move back into their roles. I’ve come around after seeing Darcy yesterday. He can take a few contests a quarter. Play English as a ruck/rover with the freedom to set up where he thinks he’s needed/can do the most damage.

Time to change the paradigm.

LOL. I don't think you need to send this to Bevo...he's already been doing it...

It just so happens that now he has some taller blokes around the ground to take a turn.

[bulldogtragic]

So Tim gets injured.

Our new great hope at CHB gets bashed up, in a heart and soul effort.
Our new great hope at FF kicks 7.
Smith is a pup.

Do we finally look at that depth mature ruckman to leave Lobb back and Darcy forward if Tim gets injured?

[GVGjr]

So Tim gets injured.

Our new great hope at CHB gets bashed up, in a heart and soul effort.
Our new great hope at FF kicks 7.
Smith is a pup.

Do we finally look at that depth mature ruckman to leave Lobb back and Darcy forward if Tim gets injured?

We probably needed to add an experienced or ready to type ruckman in case of an emergency at the MSD for this type of scenario.
We rolled the dice with our ruck set-up so lets hope for a speedy return from English and that Lobb gets a good course of physio this week and that gets him fit enough.

[ledge]

We probably needed to add an experienced or ready to type ruckman in case of an emergency at the MSD for this type of scenario.
We rolled the dice with our ruck set-up so lets hope for a speedy return from English and that Lobb gets a good course of physio this week and that gets him fit enough.

Khamis is our back up ruck, problem solved.

[bornadog]

We probably needed to add an experienced or ready to type ruckman in case of an emergency at the MSD for this type of scenario.
We rolled the dice with our ruck set-up so lets hope for a speedy return from English and that Lobb gets a good course of physio this week and that gets him fit enough.

If Lobb wasn't moved to the backline, with success, then we had our mature backup

[GVGjr]

If Lobb wasn't moved to the backline, with success, then we had our mature backup

Not really, going into the season Lobb was originally going to be our 3rd tall forward.
We've gone in light by design and today was a great advertisement for why Darcy needs to be a forward rather than thrown into long and grinding periods in the ruck.
English, Lobb and Darcy with Smith not even close to being ready meant that we were one option light on which is okay if things went really well but we can't now use it as an excuse.
Tim was in rehab for the majority of the preseason under concussion management. Lobb has never really rucked a full season and Darcy wasn't ready for a full time ruck gig either. We took a chance and it still might work but we could have also addressed it.

[mighty_west]

We really should have an experienced ruck option for the break glass option imo, now with Timmy signed up more than happy to bring back Tommy Campbell or someone like that who can come in and do a job when required.

[GVGjr]

We really should have an experienced ruck option for the break glass option imo, now with Timmy signed up more than happy to bring back Tommy Campbell or someone like that who can come in and do a job when required.

Just someone capable of filling in for 3 or 4 weeks if necessary would have been fine.

[bulldogtragic]

So…

Croft started as a junior in defence. Then went forward. He clearly is very athletically talented and skilled at either end. Milesi in the club video after drafting him talked about how he liked playing with aggression and plays with ‘the red mist’. At 201cm do we look at him as a ruckman?

If we need a big agro guy in the ruck I’d prefer it not to be Naughton. I’d prefer to keep Darcy forward as he could be generational up forward. The conversation with Croft has been is he a defender or forward. Owing to not having a ruckman with presence or aggression, do we look at Croft next year (with a preseason) as a ruckman who understands the roles of floating into defence or getting into dangerous positions forward?

[JanLorMill]

Team first. Play them where they are required. We are very thin in the backline too. Where we hiding English?

[bulldogtragic]

Team first. Play them where they are required. We are very thin in the backline too. Where we hiding English?

VFL maybe. Early this before Lobb I wanted to see if Timid could play in the backline. But Lobb has that spot and there’s no spot forward. Maybe he could go to a wing, like Blicavs. I don’t know is the answer. But we need a ruck with some aggression and Milesi has said Croft has it in spades, hence the question do we move him there this preseason.

[GVGjr]

So…

Croft started as a junior in defence. Then went forward. He clearly is very athletically talented and skilled at either end. Milesi in the club video after drafting him talked about how he liked playing with aggression and plays with ‘the red mist’. At 201cm do we look at him as a ruckman?

If we need a big agro guy in the ruck I’d prefer it not to be Naughton. I’d prefer to keep Darcy forward as he could be generational up forward. The conversation with Croft has been is he a defender or forward. Owing to not having a ruckman with presence or aggression, do we look at Croft next year (with a preseason) as a ruckman who understands the roles of floating into defence or getting into dangerous positions forward?

The problem is that he just doesn't have the build yet to be thrown into ruck contests in any real capacity and to be honest I don't see that as a likely scenario for at least another 2 years.

[bulldogtragic]

The problem is that he just doesn't have the build yet to be thrown into ruck contests in any real capacity and to be honest I don't see that as a likely scenario for at least another 2 years.

Agreed. Moreso, around do we spend his preseason as a defender or forward. Or do we see the ruck as an issue and call him a ruck now and start his journey to first ruck now and he plays when he plays. Or do we pick say defence and train him there as the 5th KPD on the list or 4th KPF on the list. I think we need to recruit a first ruck, failing that (I really don’t want to waste Darcy as a ruck) with Lobb as a KPD we need to do something to give us options even if it’s not immediate.

[SquirrelGrip]

Owing to not having a ruckman with presence or aggression, do we look at Croft next year (with a preseason) as a ruckman who understands the roles of floating into defence or getting into dangerous positions forward?


By the time Croft's body would be ready to play ruck, Fossil Smith would already be multiple years ahead of him and be a much better choice.

It's very difficult to develop a ruckman on the list unless he plays multiple positions. Ideally you have an experienced hard body (e.g. Tom Campbell) to come in if your number 1 goes down for whatever reason, but then in the VFL that same person would play ruck ahead of the your development one. I've been happy this year seeing Smith play as our number 1 VFL ruck, but nervous at the same time if English was out for an extended period.

[Danjul]

By the time Croft's body would be ready to play ruck, Fossil Smith would already be multiple years ahead of him and be a much better choice.

It's very difficult to develop a ruckman on the list unless he plays multiple positions. Ideally you have an experienced hard body (e.g. Tom Campbell) to come in if your number 1 goes down for whatever reason, but then in the VFL that same person would play ruck ahead of the your development one. I've been happy this year seeing Smith play as our number 1 VFL ruck, but nervous at the same time if English was out for an extended period.
Is Smith actually tall enough to be a first ruck these days?

[bornadog]

Is Smith actually tall enough to be a first ruck these days?

At 203cm it seems not, however, if he can use his leap and ruck nous then he can be successful.

Croft, LSmith and Darcy don't have the body yet to be an effective ruck. I mean Smith and Croft are barely 19 at this stage

[Danjul]

At 203cm it seems not, however, if he can use his leap and ruck nous then he can be successful.

Croft, LSmith and Darcy don't have the body yet to be an effective ruck. I mean Smith and Croft are barely 19 at this stage
Do 19 yo footballers get taller?

[lemmon]

Do 19 yo footballers get taller?

Or learn to jump? I think Smith is promising, but the lad doesn't look to be a great athlete. I think there's a place for him - Lloyd Meek is about 203cm, but he's a fairly slow burn.

[Sedat]

So?

Croft started as a junior in defence. Then went forward. He clearly is very athletically talented and skilled at either end. Milesi in the club video after drafting him talked about how he liked playing with aggression and plays with ?the red mist?. At 201cm do we look at him as a ruckman?

If we need a big agro guy in the ruck I?d prefer it not to be Naughton. I?d prefer to keep Darcy forward as he could be generational up forward. The conversation with Croft has been is he a defender or forward. Owing to not having a ruckman with presence or aggression, do we look at Croft next year (with a preseason) as a ruckman who understands the roles of floating into defence or getting into dangerous positions forward?
Interesting idea and worthy of investment, even if there won't be a payoff for 2+ years. If he is as competitive as articulated, it could eventually reap rewards.

The results are in and our ruck/stoppage strategy at the pointy just has to change - we have not won a final since 2019, outside of one year where we did change strategy and had a senior established no 1 ruck on his last legs (Stef Martin). The English as no 1 ruck strategy has unequivocally been a failure when it matters for 6 years now, and in all likelihood will continue to fail in the future. It will ultimately be beneficial to both English and the club to acknowledge what he is (and more importantly what he isn't and likely never will be) and change course in 2025.

[bornadog]

Do 19 yo footballers get taller?

yes they do

[G-Mo77]

Interesting idea and worthy of investment, even if there won't be a payoff for 2+ years. If he is as competitive as articulated, it could eventually reap rewards.

The results are in and our ruck/stoppage strategy at the pointy just has to change - we have not won a final since 2019, outside of one year where we did change strategy and had a senior established no 1 ruck on his last legs (Stef Martin). The English as no 1 ruck strategy has unequivocally been a failure when it matters for 6 years now, and in all likelihood will continue to fail in the future. It will ultimately be beneficial to both English and the club to acknowledge what he is (and more importantly what he isn't and likely never will be) and change course in 2025.

And we just signed him for 5.

I don't care what anyone says, if you are hitting the ball out double the amount of times your opponent is you are giving your midfield first look, you're putting your opponents midfield on their back foot and making them less attacking. We need a ruck who can at least draw even, they are not needed to win the ball X amount of times just give our mids first look at the contest. We don't need the extra midfielder, if we did we may as well put Bont in the ruck.

[Sedat]

And we just signed him for 5.

I don't care what anyone says, if you are hitting the ball out double the amount of times your opponent is you are giving your midfield first look, you're putting your opponents midfield on their back foot and making them less attacking. We need a ruck who can at least draw even, they are not needed to win the ball X amount of times just give our mids first look at the contest. We don't need the extra midfielder, if we did we may as well put Bont in the ruck.
English has absolutely elite AFL traits that we and 17 other clubs need. He is a high quality footballer - he just isn't a bankable finals/big game no 1 ruckman, and after 6 years of consistent failure on the big stage in this role, I don't think he ever will be. It looked an awful lot like Bevo came to the same realisation at half time on Friday night as well.

[macca]

English has absolutely elite AFL traits that we and 17 other clubs need. He is a high quality footballer - he just isn't a bankable finals/big game no 1 ruckman, and after 6 years of consistent failure on the big stage in this role, I don't think he ever will be. It looked an awful lot like Bevo came to the same realisation at half time on Friday night as well.

Sadly that was my assessment, when Naughton went into the ruck.

Meek, the journeyman who could not get a game at Freo, had beaten English. Snippet from the article : "He played nine games in 2021 for a total of 15 across five seasons at Fremantle, developing from a skinny teenager who played WAFL reserves football in his first two seasons into a player many believe is capable of becoming a regular senior fixture at Hawthorn in 2023." Freo invested 5 seasons into him. We invested 4 years into Sweet before he was traded and we bought in Lobb .

Easy to talk in hindsight. But Meek, has competitive traits and wanted to be Number 1 ruckman vs others in his team. With English, there is no competition internally.

I just hate how good Hawthorn are get these players who are 4-5+ years in the system and they getting better.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/871989/why-in-demand-ruckman-lloyd-meek-chose-hawthorn-hawks-as-opportunity-beckons

[comrade]

Can we change the title of this thread to:

We?re Completely Rucked

[Rocco Jones]

He is a high quality footballer - he just isn't a bankable finals/big game no 1 ruckman, and after 6 years of consistent failure on the big stage in this role, I don't think he ever will be. It looked an awful lot like Bevo came to the same realisation at half time on Friday night as well.

I thought the same too.

As Darcy develops, I think we will see more of a ruck time share and possibly even Darcy as R1.

The positive is, we have a few guys who can spend time in the ruck as well as add value elsewhere. English, Darcy and Lobb. We also have Croft developing.

Hopefully we see the best real value version of English with him spending more time forward.

[bornadog]

Or learn to jump? I think Smith is promising, but the lad doesn't look to be a great athlete. I think there's a place for him - Lloyd Meek is about 203cm, but he's a fairly slow burn.

So far in the VFL he seems to be ok for a young bloke (18) and is ranked 9th for HO (I don't have HTAs).

Agree he is not a pure athletic ruckman but has already shown potential. As we know these talls take time to mature, so we just have to nurture him along.

[Sedat]

Sadly that was my assessment, when Naughton went into the ruck.

Meek, the journeyman who could not get a game at Freo, had beaten English. Snippet from the article : "He played nine games in 2021 for a total of 15 across five seasons at Fremantle, developing from a skinny teenager who played WAFL reserves football in his first two seasons into a player many believe is capable of becoming a regular senior fixture at Hawthorn in 2023." Freo invested 5 seasons into him. We invested 4 years into Sweet before he was traded and we bought in Lobb .

Easy to talk in hindsight. But Meek, has competitive traits and wanted to be Number 1 ruckman vs others in his team. With English, there is no competition internally.


https://www.afl.com.au/news/871989/why-in-demand-ruckman-lloyd-meek-chose-hawthorn-hawks-as-opportunity-beckons
Meek was a skinny teenager playing WAFL Reserves for 2 years, which sounds like where Croft is now, hence the merit of BT's left-field suggestion.

So we have Croft as a potentially developing option for 2+ years time, Lachlan Smith probably a year more advanced and also developing. We have English and Darcy who are notionally our first 2 choice rucks now (with Lobbovich leading our key defence). There is a list spot available for another seasoned, genuinely competitive ruckman to allow Darcy to remain more often in F50, and also give the opportunity for English to be deployed elsewhere so his elite tank can actually burn opponents whilst also preserving him from the competitive body-on-body stoppage donkey work and ruck craft, which obviously doesn't come naturally to him and he clearly isn't very good at. Maybe English finds a role sweeping down back (Jones is 33yo) or as a link-up wingman who runs the arcs hard both directions. Or as that 2nd ruck/damaging forward that he has previously shown he is very capable of being.

Expecting English to suddenly become a high quality, fiercely competitive stoppage ruckman who can dominate his direct opponent and dictate positioning/drop of the ball at stoppage in his 9th season is a fool's errand IMO. Time to use him where he is better suited and makes the most of his elite traits.

[bornadog]

Sweet 51 HO, 15 HTA - only 7 disposals

Stanley 28 HO, 3 HTA

Geelong win by 80 plus points

You don't need a ruck like Sweet - ruck is over rated

[Danjul]

yes they do
I suspected that. But when I consulted Dr Google the response was that they stop at 18 because the growth plates set.

I hope you are correct because I have liked the little I have seen of Smith.

[bornadog]

I suspected that. But when I consulted Dr Google the response was that they stop at 18 because the growth plates set.

I hope you are correct because I have liked the little I have seen of Smith.


Does a late bloomer have the potential of experiencing a late growth spurt at 18-20? It's unusual to have a growth spurt this late in life, but it does happen.

Hopefully he does grow a few cm, but I don't think it's neither here nor there.

The main thing is whether he can play ruck, and I think he has had a good season at 18 years old upo against some old timers like Darcy Forte, TC etc

[Danjul]

Sweet 51 HO, 15 HTA - only 7 disposals

Stanley 28 HO, 3 HTA

Geelong win by 80 plus points

You don't need a ruck like Sweet - ruck is over rated

Sweet was the only player who gave Port some momentum. But Geelong?s game was the best I have seen in years.

[GVGjr]

Agreed. Moreso, around do we spend his preseason as a defender or forward. Or do we see the ruck as an issue and call him a ruck now and start his journey to first ruck now and he plays when he plays. Or do we pick say defence and train him there as the 5th KPD on the list or 4th KPF on the list. I think we need to recruit a first ruck, failing that (I really don?t want to waste Darcy as a ruck) with Lobb as a KPD we need to do something to give us options even if it?s not immediate.

At the moment and before any trades or drafting occurs I'd say he needs to train mainly as a forward with the occasional stint in the back line.

[bulldogtragic]

At the moment and before any trades or drafting occurs I'd say he needs to train mainly as a forward with the occasional stint in the back line.

You think we need another KPF? For injury cover or we should have four on the list generally?

[bornadog]

At the moment and before any trades or drafting occurs I'd say he needs to train mainly as a forward with the occasional stint in the back line.

I prefer he was trained as a Backman


You think we need another KPF? For injury cover or we should have four on the list generally?

Surely not

[GVGjr]

You think we need another KPF? For injury cover or we should have four on the list generally?

I don't think Croft is a serious contender to play much senior footy next year so it's not something we have to lock in. I tend to think he will move between roles based on needs. There is no pressing short term need so he just needs to get some VFL games into him until his body develops. He's probably better suited to a defenders role as BAD points out but there might be something brewing away that switches things up. I remain open minded on Croft for a few roles just not the ruck.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't think Croft is a serious contender to play much senior footy next year so it's not something we have to lock in. I tend to think he will move between roles based on needs. There is no pressing short term need so he just needs to get some VFL games into him until his body develops. He's probably better suited to a defenders role as BAD points out but there might be something brewing away that switches things up. I remain open minded on Croft for a few roles just not the ruck.

Alright. Do tell.

[azabob]

English has absolutely elite AFL traits that we and 17 other clubs need. He is a high quality footballer - he just isn't a bankable finals/big game no 1 ruckman, and after 6 years of consistent failure on the big stage in this role, I don't think he ever will be. It looked an awful lot like Bevo came to the same realisation at half time on Friday night as well.

Ah.... the exact same scenario played out in round 23 last year at your home ground when Lobb went into the ruck...

de ja vu

[Mofra]

Meek was a skinny teenager playing WAFL Reserves for 2 years, which sounds like where Croft is now, hence the merit of BT's left-field suggestion.

So we have Croft as a potentially developing option for 2+ years time, Lachlan Smith probably a year more advanced and also developing. We have English and Darcy who are notionally our first 2 choice rucks now (with Lobbovich leading our key defence). There is a list spot available for another seasoned, genuinely competitive ruckman to allow Darcy to remain more often in F50, and also give the opportunity for English to be deployed elsewhere so his elite tank can actually burn opponents whilst also preserving him from the competitive body-on-body stoppage donkey work and ruck craft, which obviously doesn't come naturally to him and he clearly isn't very good at. Maybe English finds a role sweeping down back (Jones is 33yo) or as a link-up wingman who runs the arcs hard both directions. Or as that 2nd ruck/damaging forward that he has previously shown he is very capable of being.

Expecting English to suddenly become a high quality, fiercely competitive stoppage ruckman who can dominate his direct opponent and dictate positioning/drop of the ball at stoppage in his 9th season is a fool's errand IMO. Time to use him where he is better suited and makes the most of his elite traits.
Meek was listed at 106kgs in his overage year and was a full time ruck.

He was never skinny like Croft.

[Sedat]

Meek was listed at 106kgs in his overage year and was a full time ruck.

He was never skinny like Croft.
Thanks Mof, just going by what was written in that article. I can't believe an AFEL accredited journo could make such a mistake on a fringe listed player from a low-click interstate club - they normally get things wrong much closer to home and at bigger clubs.

[bornadog]

Meek was listed at 106kgs in his overage year and was a full time ruck.

He was never skinny like Croft.

He needs to watch his weight :D - he is a big boy

[Mofra]

Thanks Mof, just going by what was written in that article. I can't believe an AFEL accredited journo could make such a mistake on a fringe listed player from a low-click interstate club - they normally get things wrong much closer to home and at bigger clubs.
AFL journalistic accreditation seems to be about as difficult to obtain as my pen license was.
Some really shoddy work has gone out this year in the rush to be either "first" or "edgy".

None of this changes my real worry that Timmy can't get it done when it matters. IIRC we haven't won a final with English as first ruck? What we wouldn't give for peak Hudson who was no star but was brilliant in supporting the mids when the ball hit the ground.

[Grantysghost]

Felt like we needed a laugh. Enjoy one of my classic memes!
https://i.postimg.cc/nrstVKzK/Mematic-20240910-171643.jpg (https://postimg.cc/m1Gn8H7h)

[Danjul]

Felt like we needed a laugh. Enjoy one of my classic memes!
https://i.postimg.cc/nrstVKzK/Mematic-20240910-171643.jpg (https://postimg.cc/m1Gn8H7h)
you should include the date: 2022 wasn’t it? He got 20 hitouts and 22 in 2023.

[Grantysghost]

you should include the date: 2020 wasn?t it?
Ha this was a picture I saw from the weekend so thought it would be funny.

I had a bad sense of humour :^]

[Danjul]

Ha this was a picture I saw from the weekend so thought it would be funny.

I had a bad sense of humour :^]

I thought it was a perfect summary of our last 6 years. We had the perfect plan, just can?t find the perfect person to make it work.

And it has cost us decent players in the process.

[azabob]

Ha this was a picture I saw from the weekend so thought it would be funny.

I had a bad sense of humour :^]

So you reckon Naughton would prefer the ruck or CHB?

[Grantysghost]

So you reckon Naughton would prefer the ruck or CHB?
He can kick goals from the ruck

[bulldogtragic]

Was going through the jumper numbers on the club website. Saw Gardner is now listed as ‘RUCK’.

So that’s new.

[Mofra]

Was going through the jumper numbers on the club website. Saw Gardner is now listed as ‘RUCK’.

So that’s new.
Gardy's played ruck/forward at VFL level to either give Buss the FB spot, or because Buss is already a better defender than he is (probably both).
I'm probably a lot more bullish on Busslinger than most based on VFL form. I was really impressed with his back half of the season. Old school 'not quick' full back who can kick it a mile and marks as often as he punches.