McCartney in the rear vision mirror

[Ghost Dog]

How do people give perspective to the McCartney tenure of the Bulldogs.
Anyone have some new insights, now we seem to be tracking a little differently?

[always right]

My take on McCartney is that he successfully developed one element of the gameplan which will hold us in good stead going forward. Unfortunately he seemed unable to develop the other elements. Combine this with an underwhelming gameday tactical ability and it was only a matter of time before he was moved on.

So far with Beveridge the emphasis has been on attack but WestCoast showed how easily we can be carved up if we don't have our defensive set up right. I suspect the attacking style will be tempered slightly as the year progresses so we end up with a more balanced approach. I feel like Beveridge has really concentrated on getting players to enjoy their football again. It can't have been easy playing the McCartney way every week......almost suffocated the players' creativity....but I reckon we will thank McCartney for giving our blokes a strong contested base that they can build their game on. For someone like Stringer this was probably crucial in showing him that his game can't be based entirely on skill and flair...hard work needs to be at the heart of his game. Without it he will finish up with a great highlights reel (he already has one) but no football career of any substance.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

How do people give perspective to the McCartney tenure of the Bulldogs.
Anyone have some new insights, now we seem to be tracking a little differently?

I would like to think that Macca made a valuable contribution to the WB during his tenure. A feature of our win against WCE was our hardness at the ball, which was a quality that McCartney brought to our Club. Unfortunately, Wallace , Eade and McCartney didn't finish well at the Bulldogs in spite of their efforts. I think we have done very well to appoint Luke Beveridge whose three years with Clarkson and two prior with Michael Malthouse at Collingwood, gives him a very strong apprenticeship, to be a highly credentialed senior coach. This is the start of a new era with Griffen, Cooney, Higgins, Jones, Tutt and Giansircusa all gone and the body blow of losing Libba for the season. The great start to the season is cause for optimism but it is still early days.

[AndrewP6]

For the first time in a long time, I find football fun again. We see the work ethic pushed by McCartney, but that's all he had. Bevo seems to have a better grasp of the overall picture of how to build a team. I think it was at least a year late, but moving McCartney on was a good move.

[bulldogtragic]

Similar tenure to Rhode. A few years, horrible win/loss record. I like him as a person and speaker, but he was driving the bus when it went over the cliff. The captain and string of players all cited Macca as a reason for walking out and interviews from virtually all players talk about Bevo communicating better and the pups talking about mistakes of last year and Maccas issues. Whether Shocktober was a good thing for the future is a seperate issue. Being a good bloke is not enough and I'm happy we are moving in a new direction with a coach who is seeing dividends in pups already. Sorry, but that's just how I see it.

[bornadog]

I thought Macca was a good assistant coach but didn't have the ability to step up to the senior role.

The myth surrounding contested football is just that a Myth. Under previous coaches, we were already in the top three in the AFL for contested ball winning.

Macca certainly helped lots of players develop over the three years and we can thank him for that.

[Greystache]

McCartney's was always going to be a thankless task. He inherited a train wreck of a list that had been hopelessly mis-managed and that was playing a badly outdated brand of football. We also had barely recruited a decent player in 5 years for him to rebuild the team with. There was also issues with the few senior players we had and their willingness to play selfless football.

He stripped back the game plan to it's bare bones to try to instil the basics of how a good team should perform. He did that part well and Beveridge has acknowledged it's put him in a much better situation than he expected. He also got heavily involved in the recruitment side of things. Not only did he set the direction in the type of players he wanted to pick, but he also watched a lot of TAC games and went out to personally interview a large number of the kids we were considering. This had immediate results in our drafting outcomes.

Where McCartney failed was he was either incapable or took too long to expand his game plan to include better ball movement, spread from the contest, forward structure, and reducing the exposure one on one of our defenders. This meant wins were few, players were frustrated, and fans hated watching us play. The decision to move forward in a new direction was the right one, but we're well placed in many ways thanks to his development years.

[Before I Die]

I will always struggle to understand how he lost the players. He seemed like an excellent communicator and a genuinely caring individual who handle the pressure very well. I guess the average punter like me will never know the full inside story. Perhaps the lack of progress took its toll and he lost confidence in his players instead of picking up the mirror and having that 'good, long, hard look at himself'. I think his greatest legacy will be the players we recruited during his tenure. Whether that was his doing, or Dalrymple, or a team effort, who knows.

[Mofra]

He was neither all bad or all good - he was good at some things, poor at others.

His time with us gave us a number of positives as well as the best nucleus of young Bulldog kids I've ever seen in my lifetime (Bonti, Macrae, Stringer, Libba, Boyd). He was also poor on matchday and extremely harsh behind closed doors.

Done his time, thank you for the service, onto a new era.

[Pedro Sanchez]

Best part of Macca’s time was our draft record – still some water to go under the bridge but early days and it looks to be something quite outstanding.

I was always a fan too, but you can’t go past the crisis that eventually hit.

Reading between the lines he felt the pressure of losing more games than winning, and as a result started to lash out at the players. And in doing so, completely lost them.

The old spiral affect.

Anyway I thank him for what he did, but must admit that under Bevo this is the most excited I’ve been about footy since about 2007. Good times ahead!

On an aside, saw footage of Macca at Melbourne training last week. He had a full blown beard and looked to have shed 10+ kilos. Really slimmed down, maybe he’s rebuilt himself after the debacle that happen at Dogsville. Maybe…

[KT31]

Interestingly I was at a coaching course last week and it was mentioned that Macca was a great talker but woeful listener and very poor with the players.(nothing we don't know in hindsight), it was also said the writing was on the wall the year before with the players but was ignored.
Eade came up as one of the angriest coaches of all time, big wraps on Malthouse and his relationship with the players.(opposite to the outsiders perception )
Clarkson was said to be one of the best listeners, tries to make each training drill as enjoyable and wants to ensure all his players are enjoying their game.
Mind you easy to do after you have just one two flags and are favourite for the third, but they said he has been like this from day one.

[chef]

How do people give perspective to the McCartney tenure of the Bulldogs.
Anyone have some new insights, now we seem to be tracking a little differently?

Got us(or played a huge part) Bonti, Macrae and Stringer plus a few others. We'll be benefiting from his tenure for the next decade.

[wimberga]

Interestingly I was at a coaching course last week and it was mentioned that Macca was a great talker but woeful listener and very poor with the players.(nothing we don't know in hindsight), it was also said the writing was on the wall the year before with the players but was ignored.
Eade came up as one of the angriest coaches of all time, big wraps on Malthouse and his relationship with the players.(opposite to the outsiders perception )
Clarkson was said to be one of the best listeners, tries to make each training drill as enjoyable and wants to ensure all his players are enjoying their game.
Mind you easy to do after you have just one two flags and are favourite for the third, but they said he has been like this from day one.

Thats really interesting insights thanks KT - any other gems?

[Hot_Doggies]

Similar tenure to Rhode. A few years, horrible win/loss record. I like him as a person and speaker, but he was driving the bus when it went over the cliff. The captain and string of players all cited Macca as a reason for walking out and interviews from virtually all players talk about Bevo communicating better and the pups talking about mistakes of last year and Maccas issues. Whether Shocktober was a good thing for the future is a seperate issue. Being a good bloke is not enough and I'm happy we are moving in a new direction with a coach who is seeing dividends in pups already. Sorry, but that's just how I see it.

Macca had the courage to go to the draft every year, knowing it could make or break him. He never altered from this and that will be his legacy.

[bornadog]

Got us(or played a huge part) Bonti, Macrae and Stringer plus a few others. We'll be benefiting from his tenure for the next decade.


Macca had the courage to go to the draft every year, knowing it could make or break him. He never altered from this and that will be his legacy.

Macca may have had some input but at the end of the day the recruiting department is the one that decides who to pick. Also easier when you have pick 5 or 6.

[bornadog]

Interestingly I was at a coaching course last week and it was mentioned that Macca was a great talker but woeful listener and very poor with the players.(nothing we don't know in hindsight), it was also said the writing was on the wall the year before with the players but was ignored.
Eade came up as one of the angriest coaches of all time, big wraps on Malthouse and his relationship with the players.(opposite to the outsiders perception )
Clarkson was said to be one of the best listeners, tries to make each training drill as enjoyable and wants to ensure all his players are enjoying their game.
Mind you easy to do after you have just one two flags and are favourite for the third, but they said he has been like this from day one.

Rocket needs to change his style (maybe he has, who knows) as does Malthouse as people managment has now changed. Yelling and screaming doesn't work any more in this day and age.

[Maddog37]

I hate him for making me dislike going to the footy due to our game plan........

I love him for being a big part in setting up our VFL team and driving some of the one way runners off our list.

Still too early for me to truely be objective as I feel like he hoodwinked me into believing in him.

[Hot_Doggies]

Macca may have had some input but at the end of the day the recruiting department is the one that decides who to pick. Also easier when you have pick 5 or 6.

So Peter Rhode had no say in Rawlings and Koops?

Look at what Mark Neeld, Scott Watters , Malthouse (carlton) did to their lists. Takes a lot of courage to do what Macca did.

[chef]

Macca may have had some input but at the end of the day the recruiting department is the one that decides who to pick. Also easier when you have pick 5 or 6.

Pretty sure he had huge input into the Macrae, Bonti and Stringer selections.

I don't see a problem with giving him some credit when credits due.

[Greystache]

Macca may have had some input but at the end of the day the recruiting department is the one that decides who to pick. Also easier when you have pick 5 or 6.

The same recruitment team didn't pick a single decent player in the 2009 or 2010 national drafts bar the gift wrapped F&S's. McCartney had a huge say in the players we drafted.

Under McCartney

Pick 4- Bontempelli
Pick 5- Stringer
Pick 6- MaCrae

Under previous regimes

Pick 4- Walsh
Pick 5- Grant
Pick 6- Williams

We picked what could end up being 3 of the top 20 players in the competition under McCartney. Previously we picked 3 duds with the same early picks.

[KT31]

Thats really interesting insights thanks KT - any other gems?

Thanks wimberga,
they did say Tutt only left because of Macca and was swayed by Malthouse's approach-ability and relationship with the players.
Have an other night in a couple of weeks and hopefully will pick up some more.

[bornadog]

Macca may have had some input .


So Peter Rhode had no say in Rawlings and Koops? .

Did I say no say? Read again. You conveniently forget Cooney and Griffen, who are early picks.


Pretty sure he had huge input into the Macrae, Bonti and Stringer selections.

I don't see a problem with giving him some credit when credits due.

I gave him some credit, read again. If we are going to say Macca picked those guys well we may as well get rid of the recruiting department and get the coach to pick them.


The same recruitment team didn't pick a single decent player in the 2009 or 2010 national drafts bar the gift wrapped F&S's.

The same recruiting team didn't have pick 5 or 6 in those years. Have a look at the top 6 in 2009 and 2010.


. Previously we picked 3 duds with the same early picks.

You are the only one on this board that doesn't rate Grant and you never rated Williams. Walsh yes was a dud.

Again you pick years that suit your argument.

As I said, I am sure Macca had a say in the selection of players, but give me a break he surely is not the one that picks the players.

[bulldogtragic]

I liked Tim Walsh.

Why are people so unkind?

[chef]

I gave him some credit, read again. If we are going to say Macca picked those guys well we may as well get rid of the recruiting department and get the coach to pick them.

You said 'Macca may have had some input but at the end of the day the recruiting department is the one that decides who to pick'.

Didn't seem like you were giving him much credit to me, but everything I've heard is he had a huge say in the type of player drafted and spent a lot of time watching those 3 guys play.

[jeemak]

McCartney's was always going to be a thankless task. He inherited a train wreck of a list that had been hopelessly mis-managed and that was playing a badly outdated brand of football. We also had barely recruited a decent player in 5 years for him to rebuild the team with. There was also issues with the few senior players we had and their willingness to play selfless football.

He stripped back the game plan to it's bare bones to try to instil the basics of how a good team should perform. He did that part well and Beveridge has acknowledged it's put him in a much better situation than he expected. He also got heavily involved in the recruitment side of things. Not only did he set the direction in the type of players he wanted to pick, but he also watched a lot of TAC games and went out to personally interview a large number of the kids we were considering. This had immediate results in our drafting outcomes.

Where McCartney failed was he was either incapable or took too long to expand his game plan to include better ball movement, spread from the contest, forward structure, and reducing the exposure one on one of our defenders. This meant wins were few, players were frustrated, and fans hated watching us play. The decision to move forward in a new direction was the right one, but we're well placed in many ways thanks to his development years.

This is fairly close to how I feel about things.

My guess is he'll likely get plenty of credit for the bad performances we put together (and there will be a few, I think) in Beveridge's early years, and little for the positives we might see during that time.

[Dazza]

He got us some good kids and lost us some quality players.

Had no idea with team selection.

[Remi Moses]

Gotta say there would not be one person involved in football who doesn't think Jarryd Grants been a major disappointment.
Even Jarryd would concede he hasn't made the most of his talents .
I think its a pretty easy comparison cimparing McCartney to Rhode, but what isn't taken into account was the talent on the list when they occupied the seat .
Clearly player relationships meant the job became untenable, and what worried me about McCartney was the game outside contested ball, and the ( thankfully some misses) in recruiting . Matthew Bate, gumbleton !!
In whole I reckon he's a development coach who had to many shortcomings to become successful as a senior coach.

[jeemak]

Interestingly I was at a coaching course last week and it was mentioned that Macca was a great talker but woeful listener and very poor with the players.(nothing we don't know in hindsight), it was also said the writing was on the wall the year before with the players but was ignored.
Eade came up as one of the angriest coaches of all time, big wraps on Malthouse and his relationship with the players.(opposite to the outsiders perception )
Clarkson was said to be one of the best listeners, tries to make each training drill as enjoyable and wants to ensure all his players are enjoying their game.
Mind you easy to do after you have just one two flags and are favourite for the third, but they said he has been like this from day one.

Thanks for sharing.

Based on this we've got negligent people running our football club. If the writing was on the wall from a playing group perspective, to the extent where it was common knowledge within the football community that we had coach and player issues, it's surprising McCartney was given a contract extension at the time.

[Greystache]

You are the only one on this board that doesn't rate Grant and you never rated Williams. Walsh yes was a dud.

Again you pick years that suit your argument.

As I said, I am sure Macca had a say in the selection of players, but give me a break he surely is not the one that picks the players.

We had pick 15, a couple before Fyfe and Carlisle, easily early enough to get a good player. We didn't

You said it's easy to pick good players with early picks, I showed you what we chose previously with those exact picks and they were all duds. Grant had played 60 in 8 years, regularly plays reserves and has shown next to no improvement. For pick 5 that's a dud selection no matter how hard you wish for a miracle to happen. Factor in the players just after him Henderson, Dangerfield, Rioli and is a disaster. Williams just couldn't play, injuries covered his blushes.

Would it kill you to not bash McCartney in every aspect. We get it you didn't rate him, right from day 1.

[Go_Dogs]

Thanks for sharing.

Based on this we've got negligent people running our football club. If the writing was on the wall from a playing group perspective, to the extent where it was common knowledge within the football community that we had coach and player issues, it's surprising McCartney was given a contract extension at the time.

Yep, the extension made sense in that it put support behind Macca to continue doing what he was doing, but as demonstrated in 2014, a contract extension really doesn't mean much anyway. In hindsight, it was the wrong decision.


Overall, I think we have made the right decision moving on, as towards the end of 2014 it was becoming very hard to see what the direction and ultimate plan was. The outcomes from his time, including what I understand to be some changes in our recruitment processes, a contested ball and team defence mantra (albeit, one not consistently executed well) and shedding some senior players who weren't totally in it with us, are positives. Some of these outcomes were by design, others a by-product of what Macca did along the way.

Bevo appears to have inherited a side much better prepared than the side Macca inherited back in 2012, which hopefully means we can move up the ladder quickly and begin enjoying another era of exciting football, and ultimately, success.

[1eyedog]

McCartney's was always going to be a thankless task. He inherited a train wreck of a list that had been hopelessly mis-managed and that was playing a badly outdated brand of football. We also had barely recruited a decent player in 5 years for him to rebuild the team with. There was also issues with the few senior players we had and their willingness to play selfless football.

He stripped back the game plan to it's bare bones to try to instil the basics of how a good team should perform. He did that part well and Beveridge has acknowledged it's put him in a much better situation than he expected. He also got heavily involved in the recruitment side of things. Not only did he set the direction in the type of players he wanted to pick, but he also watched a lot of TAC games and went out to personally interview a large number of the kids we were considering. This had immediate results in our drafting outcomes.

Where McCartney failed was he was either incapable or took too long to expand his game plan to include better ball movement, spread from the contest, forward structure, and reducing the exposure one on one of our defenders. This meant wins were few, players were frustrated, and fans hated watching us play. The decision to move forward in a new direction was the right one, but we're well placed in many ways thanks to his development years.

Great summary and it's why I had a ton of respect for him. He was prepared to do the hard things for the benefit of the club and ultimately to the detriment of his own position. It was also why I backed him in following Griffon's departure.

Great thread topic btw.

[F'scary]

McCartney prevented us from hitting rock bottom during his 3 seasons, he kept us just out of the terminal zone when we could have easily slid further. He did some good building for the future. But I think it was a mistake to extend his contract two more years at the end of his second. His job was done at the end of his third year.

[bornadog]

We get it you didn't rate him, right from day 1.

You are not wrong about that.

History will show the win/loss ratio as one of our worst.

[bulldogtragic]

Just for the comparison.

Macca's reign saw Bonts, Stringer, Macrae - He threw $2.2 million after a second string defender (who said no), plus topping up on Young, Lower etc - before being sacked. Top liners walked out on the club (ie Griffffun). Winning record 30%.

Cheap As Chips saw Cooney, Griffen, Ray - He pissed away $3+ million and picks on players (who said yes) and topping up on Morgan etc - before being sacked. Top liners walked out on the club (ie Nathan Brown). Winning record 20%.

Is it really that long a stretch?

The only difference is the club sacked CaC upon our stars being unhappy, and kept West and Gilbee as a direct result. The club waited with Macca this time and they exited.

[Go_Dogs]

In fairness, because of our list we needed to throw money somewhere so we could meet the cap, and adding a key defender was a sound strategy. How it worked out looks like a great outcome, but there was some method to the apparent madness at the time.

I can't recall what Morgan cost us, but for a very brief moment in Rocket's early years he proved he could be a solid role player for us, before going down with a serious injury and never quite recovering. Young and Lower have been done to death, but both were cheap and I think it's fair to say made contributions to the AFL and VFL side in their short time with us.

[LostDoggy]

Did I say no say? Read again. You conveniently forget Cooney and Griffen, who are early picks.



I gave him some credit, read again. If we are going to say Macca picked those guys well we may as well get rid of the recruiting department and get the coach to pick them.



The same recruiting team didn't have pick 5 or 6 in those years. Have a look at the top 6 in 2009 and 2010.



You are the only one on this board that doesn't rate Grant and you never rated Williams. Walsh yes was a dud.

Again you pick years that suit your argument.

As I said, I am sure Macca had a say in the selection of players, but give me a break he surely is not the one that picks the players.
I don't rate Grant. Sure he does some exciting things. See the chase by Zac Dawson on the weekend?

Thanks for sharing.

Based on this we've got negligent people running our football club. If the writing was on the wall from a playing group perspective, to the extent where it was common knowledge within the football community that we had coach and player issues, it's surprising McCartney was given a contract extension at the time.
We were smack-bang in the middle of a rebuild, draft picks to expansion teams, membership stagnating and there was either little talent available to replace him, or at the very least they didn't want to come to the WO, and the players were starting to get testy. The club had little choice but to stick with McCartney and try to sell unity via a contract extension.

You are not wrong about that.

History will show the win/loss ratio as one of our worst.

Win/loss ratios don't win you premierships. Hawthorn nearly FOLDED before getting their crap together.

[ratsmac]

Macca was the recession we had to have!

Macca inherited a list in tatters. An aging list with very few decent kids coming through. 3 years on we the 2nd or 3rd youngest and the most promising lists in the comp. The time he was here he instilled a hard edge centred around contested football.

Yeah there was a exodus of some of our senior players at the end of last season but we did alright with what we received in return. It didn't end very nicely for him but how often does a coaches tenure end with smiles all around.

Love him or hate him he was good for the Western Bulldogs.

[Ghost Dog]

Best part of Macca’s time was our draft record – still some water to go under the bridge but early days and it looks to be something quite outstanding.

I was always a fan too, but you can’t go past the crisis that eventually hit.

Reading between the lines he felt the pressure of losing more games than winning, and as a result started to lash out at the players. And in doing so, completely lost them.

The old spiral affect.

Anyway I thank him for what he did, but must admit that under Bevo this is the most excited I’ve been about footy since about 2007. Good times ahead!

On an aside, saw footage of Macca at Melbourne training last week. He had a full blown beard and looked to have shed 10+ kilos. Really slimmed down, maybe he’s rebuilt himself after the debacle that happen at Dogsville. Maybe…

Some good points there. It's still quite early in Luke's tenure to judge him.

[Ghost Dog]

One positive thing I admired Maca for was sending Grant away from the group for four weeks. Second efforts and intent were not great - ridiculous to have a player with that much talent in the VFL. After that, he came back a better player and I remember his goal celebrations on his return - had found something in the wilderness.

[bulldogtragic]

I can't believe we are back here after winning. Screw me dead what happens if/when we lose. No offence to anyone there's free expression on woof, but it's killing my buzz, so I might go back to threads about the future and the Tiges this week. Carry on.

[SonofScray]

Great summary and it's why I had a ton of respect for him. He was prepared to do the hard things for the benefit of the club and ultimately to the detriment of his own position. It was also why I backed him in following Griffon's departure.

Great thread topic btw.
I hold a similar view.
Macca pushed hard for the VFL side, which has been a success for the Club and we will continue to reap rewards. I think he set a particularly high standard for behaviour and expectations around team first stuff, which proved to be a challenge for some of our best. Recruited well, helped the Club start reconnecting with its identity as a hard nosed lot.

I know he valued his time with the Club a great deal and was heavily invested in getting a result for the fans. A shame things panned out the way they did. I feel a bit better work from Garlick and more honesty from Griffen and it might have. But what happened, happened and I think the lessons have been learned albeit the hard way.

In all, he laid a solid foundation.

[Ghost Dog]

I can't believe we are back here after winning. Screw me dead what happens if/when we lose. No offence to anyone there's free expression on woof, but it's killing my buzz, so I might go back to threads about the future and the Tiges this week. Carry on.

I'm not sure I agree. This thread was started with respect in mind for Brendan and to remember the things he did for the club before his influence wanes. Unfortunately, the way you end is how people often remember you, but that's a bit simplistic.

I guess I can think of a lot of second or third-tier players who got derided fairly regularly, but many posters often change the way I see them. That's the beauty of being able to post in a forum for rusted-on supporters. You can get a more complex view of the workings.

At the end of the day, he sat in the chair for The Western Bulldogs and that's worthy of respect.

[bulldogtragic]

Nup.... Last one. One man was behind Footscray coming back. One man took a job at the club wanting to bring Footscray back. One man was always bringing Footscray back no matter what anyone else wanted. One man put a million dollars into getting Footscray back. In my eyes no one gets credit for Footscray VFL except that one man, everyone wanted us back and into the VFL from coach to supporter. That one man is not any former coach, and for any credits this is not one.

[Ghost Dog]

Great summary and it's why I had a ton of respect for him. He was prepared to do the hard things for the benefit of the club and ultimately to the detriment of his own position. It was also why I backed him in following Griffon's departure.

Great thread topic btw.

LOL - open season on spelling of post-Bulldog's players.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm not sure I agree. This thread was started with respect in mind for Brendan and to remember the things he did for the club. If we want to look closely, there are many. Unfortunately, the way you end is how people often remember you.

I guess I can think of a lot of players who got derided fairly regularly, but they all added something to the mix and stood tall in moments that will otherwise be lost. That's the beauty of being able to post in a forum for rusted on supporters. You can get a more complex view of the workings.

At the end of the day, he sat in the chair for The Western Bulldogs and that's worthy of respect.

I mean no offence. I've been dreaming of a sexy game planned Bulldogs win for a long while now and this is for me as an individual is bringing down my own buzz. No disrespect at all, and I'm sure many enjoy the thread as is their absolute right. IVe been re watching and re watching the game and just want to stick with the feeling. Just me in my head, so I will focus on this week.

[Ghost Dog]

I mean no offence. I've been dreaming of a sexy game planned Bulldogs win for a long while now and this is for me as an individual is bringing down my own buzz. No disrespect at all, and I'm sure many enjoy the thread as is their absolute right. IVe been re watching and re watching the game and just want to stick with the feeling. Just me in my head, so I will focus on this week.

Nah! I don't say you are wrong 100%!, - I'm sure it can easily descend into negativity. But it is "in the rear vision mirror". You can only do that safely for so long :) One must keep driving forward. It's hard to analyse what really happened last year anyway because it's hard to say what happened behind the glass.

Man I remember going to Etihad and there was this half-mad Bulldogs supporter, wearing his kit but with a Brisbane top. It was early in the season and he was adamant and frothing at the mouth that Maca was the wrong man for the job. Smug me thought I knew better.

[boydogs]

The people at the club work together. Peter Gordon might get credit for creating the VFL side, but it was Ben Graham's project for 6 months to make it happen and Macca would have had a say in how it operated, including making it feel like one club for the players which several of them have commented on. Chris Maple as inaugural coach and Ash Hansen as development coach were also heavily involved

Macca also had strong beliefs on the type of players we should be recruiting, with his contested ball focus and good young men mantra. Clay Smith might have a funny kicking action but the kid can play, and we're having to strap him to a chair to stop him coming back from his second knee reconstruction - he was a textbook Macca pick

He was famous for his Fatherly approach to player mentoring and we did see improvement in several struggling players during his time, including Wood, Roughead, Jong, Grant and Libba's response to his drugs issue. He was also instrumental in recruiting Crameri, Dickson & Campbell from Essendon & Essendon's VFL side Bendigo, and several assistant coaches from Geelong thanks to relationships he had built at other clubs

His game plan was not well rounded and his time with us ended badly, but he did plenty of good for us to remember him by

[LostDoggy]

Was always a Macca supporter even when my dad would always say he's no good,rubbish game plan and dosen't react or can't to match day moves and other teams run ons against us.
Still backed him when #16 wanted a trade to plasticine land.Loved our contested ball mantra,sure a lot of the time it wasn't pretty to watch but could understand the foundation base with which Macca was trying to instill in our young group.

[LostDoggy]

When we win the flag, we will look back and say it started from his days.

[FrediKanoute]

My take - he took over a club hitting bottom of its cycle - not enough good young players coming in and a lot of aging veterans, but with a couple of guns. He moulded a game plan based around being able to win the contested footy, not because it was going to win games immediately, but because it demanded a work ethic that was just not present at the club previously. He set in place specific criteria as to the type of players he wanted at the club - talented footballers, but good young men. He challenged established players to play through adversity and work hard through times when things aren't going your way (most have left - Lake, Cooney, Higgins, Griffin). He taught the young players that team discipline and playing for the team was far more important than playing for individual glory.

In short B-Mac laid a foundation. There were no quick fixes. There was a rigid sticking to the plan to make sure that base was sound.

Yes he had his faults. Yes tactically he wasn't strong. Yes the club could have done better in the years he coached by chasing wins and not playing the way he wanted. All of this would have been short term gains, but eroding the longer term objective - Premiership teams are not built in a day. Premiership dynasties are built on the foundation of basic non-negotiables - B-Mac in my mind laid many of these down. he is miles ahead of where Rhode was.

Finally - we are 1 game into Bevo's career. Yes the difference and feeling is apparent, but 1 game does not make a coaching career and reality checks will happen through the year. To me the early signs are encouraging with Bevo, but the jury hasn't even seen all the evidence let alone begun its assessment.

[Remi Moses]

You are not wrong about that.

History will show the win/loss ratio as one of our worst.

What history won't show was how tripe our list was when he took over .
Very simplistic to just trot out the win/loss record .

[LostDoggy]

I can't believe we are back here after winning. Screw me dead what happens if/when we lose. No offence to anyone there's free expression on woof, but it's killing my buzz, so I might go back to threads about the future and the Tiges this week. Carry on.
My kids and I like bushwalking, especially walking in the hills. Whenever my kids are moaning about how far we still have to climb, I tell them to turn around and look how far we have come already. There is nothing wrong with taking a little bit of a look in the mirror, it doesn't mean you're living in the past. Macca delivered the win on the weekend just as much as Bevo did.

Nup.... Last one. One man was behind Footscray coming back. One man took a job at the club wanting to bring Footscray back. One man was always bringing Footscray back no matter what anyone else wanted. One man put a million dollars into getting Footscray back. In my eyes no one gets credit for Footscray VFL except that one man, everyone wanted us back and into the VFL from coach to supporter. That one man is not any former coach, and for any credits this is not one.
That's crap mate. Takes a LOT of folks to organise something like that. Peter Gordon would freely admit this, as he's a good leader.

My take - he took over a club hitting bottom of its cycle - not enough good young players coming in and a lot of aging veterans, but with a couple of guns. He moulded a game plan based around being able to win the contested footy, not because it was going to win games immediately, but because it demanded a work ethic that was just not present at the club previously. He set in place specific criteria as to the type of players he wanted at the club - talented footballers, but good young men. He challenged established players to play through adversity and work hard through times when things aren't going your way (most have left - Lake, Cooney, Higgins, Griffin). He taught the young players that team discipline and playing for the team was far more important than playing for individual glory.

In short B-Mac laid a foundation. There were no quick fixes. There was a rigid sticking to the plan to make sure that base was sound.

Yes he had his faults. Yes tactically he wasn't strong. Yes the club could have done better in the years he coached by chasing wins and not playing the way he wanted. All of this would have been short term gains, but eroding the longer term objective - Premiership teams are not built in a day. Premiership dynasties are built on the foundation of basic non-negotiables - B-Mac in my mind laid many of these down. he is miles ahead of where Rhode was.

Finally - we are 1 game into Bevo's career. Yes the difference and feeling is apparent, but 1 game does not make a coaching career and reality checks will happen through the year. To me the early signs are encouraging with Bevo, but the jury hasn't even seen all the evidence let alone begun its assessment.

Good post, really enjoyed reading this one.

[bornadog]

What history won't show was how tripe our list was when he took over .
Very simplistic to just trot out the win/loss record .

That is all we have to go by..... history.

[chef]

That is all we have to go by..... history.

But it isn't, we have the knowledge of the situation when he took over. We know he inherited a pretty poor list that was mismanaged.

[ledge]

I think he knew talent and good people and recruited that type of person .. No doubt if we win a flag soon he will have his footprint on it in some way .. My only question of him was could he actually coach on a game day and devise a game plan to win a flag?
A sort of players revolt suggests they were frustrated and didn't agree with his ideas.
I liken him to the cross over from
Malt house to Wheeler , the players felt held back with Mick (HArdie jumper waving ) and when Terry took over he gave the players a chance to show their natural instinct., they felt free as has been mentioned by our president.

[Maddog37]

I would love to hear Maccas thoughts on what happened.....

[1eyedog]

I would love to hear Maccas thoughts on what happened.....

Have to wait for the book :)

[bornadog]

But it isn't, we have the knowledge of the situation when he took over. We know he inherited a pretty poor list that was mismanaged.

10, 20 30 years down the track, who would remember that

[LostDoggy]

Finally - we are 1 game into Bevo's career. Yes the difference and feeling is apparent, but 1 game does not make a coaching career and reality checks will happen through the year. To me the early signs are encouraging with Bevo, but the jury hasn't even seen all the evidence let alone begun its assessment.

This.

I wouldn't mind reading threads on here after our Round 1 win against Brisbane in 2013. We smashed Brisbane that day and played great attacking footy.

Will be interesting to see how Bevo reacts when things inevitability go pear-shaped at stages this season.

Agree with most sentiments regarding Macca and the importance of those development years, however, I believe in his final year he started coaching for respectable losses and went away from his original plan. I would assume to avoid big loses and try save his job.

[Cyberdoggie]

This.

I wouldn't mind reading threads on here after our Round 1 win against Brisbane in 2013. We smashed Brisbane that day and played great attacking footy.

Will be interesting to see how Bevo reacts when things inevitability go pear-shaped at stages this season.

Agree with most sentiments regarding Macca and the importance of those development years, however, I believe in his final year he started coaching for respectable losses and went away from his original plan. I would assume to avoid big loses and try save his job.
We have a game against Hawthorn coming up down in Tassie in a few weeks.

[Bulldog4life]

This.

I wouldn't mind reading threads on here after our Round 1 win against Brisbane in 2013. We smashed Brisbane that day and played great attacking footy.

Will be interesting to see how Bevo reacts when things inevitability go pear-shaped at stages this season.



Agree with most sentiments regarding Macca and the importance of those development years, however, I believe in his final year he started coaching for respectable losses and went away from his original plan. I would assume to avoid big loses and try save his job.

Very good point Jaytee. Nearly forgot that win.

[Ozza]

Whilst I respect that the original intent of this thread was to look at the positives/negatives and legacy from the McCartney era - much of the thread has led to comparisons between the styles of the two coaches - and how now we play great attacking footy.

The Brisbane round 1 game from 2013 is a really good game to highlight how things can change quickly.

I supported the previous coach 100%. But now he is not there, I'm 100% behind Bevo.

Having said all this - I am extremely cautious as far as getting over excited about us being (or looking like) a 'brand new side'.
Saturday night was super enjoyable. But my more-cautious side reminds me that;
1. We played a West Coast side ABSOLUTELY RIPE for the picking. They will be an ordinary side this year.
2. We still got opened up like a can of sardines through the middle of the ground, especially on the rebound - although it seemed to be addressed after half time.
3. We still managed to give up the first couple of goals of each quarter (aside from the last), very early.

So I guess my point is, that things are never as bad, or good - as they may seem. Judgement of both McCartney's coaching, and the infancy of Bevo's coaching - can afford to be a fair bit more measured at this stage....and we should probably wait and see how we go against Richmond, Hawthorn, Adelaide and Sydney in the next 4 weeks (good sides) to see where we are at.

[westdog54]

That is all we have to go by..... history.
We also have the context in which the events occurred. That is as important and relevant as the events themselves.


10, 20 30 years down the track, who would remember that

This is where we need to be a part of writing our history. We need to make sure that what McCartney brought to the club isn't simply cast away.

[Sedat]

Macca had the courage to go to the draft every year, knowing it could make or break him. He never altered from this and that will be his legacy.
Not quite so sure about that. Under his watch, we went hard after Chris Dawes (Hrovat pick), Matthew Bate (Talia pick) and Tom Lonergan (500k a season for 4 years for a 30yo ultra-defensive KD). I would safely say that 90% of posters would be very happy that none of these trades eventuated.

His strong push for a stand-alone VFL team will be his most significant legacy at the club. The demands of senior coaching and man management proved to be well beyond his capabilities - nothing wrong with that, there have been countless failed coaches who had strong resumes.

[MrMahatma]

Was always a Macca fan. I lapped up all his rhetoric about recruiting fine young men, about needing to build the game from the inside out, about how the culture of the club needed changing and about how we were on the path to success.

Then last week I was having dinner and the waitress turned out to be the former girlfriend of a currently listed player. She said the even she had thought the same. A teacher. A nice guy. He always spoke so well. Her boyfriend, however, told her of how he used to make some of the younger players cry by focussing on just one small error and belittling them in front of the whole team.

I'm no psychologist, but he sounds like a classic bully. To the outside world, butter won't melt in their mouth, but when they have the opportunity to exert some power and hurt people... away they go.

Maybe extreme, but if it's even close to how he was described, we've dodged a big bullet as much better players than those we lost would've been walking soon. Makes me wonder why we kept him so long.

Good riddance I say.

[bornadog]

Was always a Macca fan. I lapped up all his rhetoric about recruiting fine young men, about needing to build the game from the inside out, about how the culture of the club needed changing and about how we were on the path to success.

Then last week I was having dinner and the waitress turned out to be the former girlfriend of a currently listed player. She said the even she had thought the same. A teacher. A nice guy. He always spoke so well. Her boyfriend, however, told her of how he used to make some of the younger players cry by focussing on just one small error and belittling them in front of the whole team.

I'm no psychologist, but he sounds like a classic bully. To the outside world, butter won't melt in their mouth, but when they have the opportunity to exert some power and hurt people... away they go.

Maybe extreme, but if it's even close to how he was described, we've dodged a big bullet as much better players than those we lost would've been walking soon. Makes me wonder why we kept him so long.

Good riddance I say.

This is what I heard as well, especially about the young players, although some supporters thought it was just the senior players who didn't want to buy into his mantra. Why in the hell it took three years to find all this out, god only knows.

[Remi Moses]

Not having a crack, but there are some Chinese whispers happening, or what?
I'd hazard to guess it wouldn't be just one issue McCartney would have with a player.

[boydogs]

1. We played a West Coast side ABSOLUTELY RIPE for the picking

I'm not so sure, they were undermanned for KPD's but we didn't exploit that. A lot of independent judges have commented on the quality of the game, the pressure from both sides was finals like

[jeemak]

Crying footballers? He must have been a real meanie.

I can't believe all of this was happening under the noses of Gordon and Grant the whole time, and all they wanted to do was either extend his contract or stick with him as the senior coach, only until the captain side-swiped them with an about face on leaving the club!

Talk about negligence.

[Ozza]

I'm not so sure, they were undermanned for KPD's but we didn't exploit that. A lot of independent judges have commented on the quality of the game, the pressure from both sides was finals like

The pressure was great (as you'd expect in round 1) and no doubt the game itself was highly entertaining. Just my opinion that West Coast will struggle and will really feel the loss of Dean Cox this year, and don't have the depth required in any of their lines, to be a good side.

Priddis and Naitanui are obviously high quality. But they don't really have an elite on ball player behind those two at this stage. Scott Selwood really hasn't taken the next step. In fact he's gone from a prolific ball winner, to becoming more defensively minded.
Shuey looked like he could have been anything - about 18 months ago, but in my estimations he is at best, stalled, in development.
Gaff and Masten are nice players - but B graders.

Like us, they are for the most part a young developing side.

[Mofra]

Like us, they are for the most part a young developing side.
They have nowhere near our young talent, and half their supporters want Priddis dropped.
Their inability to develop midfielders is alarming - check out their comments on BF. They are genuinely losing hope at a rapid pace.

[LostDoggy]

Was always a Macca fan. I lapped up all his rhetoric about recruiting fine young men, about needing to build the game from the inside out, about how the culture of the club needed changing and about how we were on the path to success.

Then last week I was having dinner and the waitress turned out to be the former girlfriend of a currently listed player. She said the even she had thought the same. A teacher. A nice guy. He always spoke so well. Her boyfriend, however, told her of how he used to make some of the younger players cry by focussing on just one small error and belittling them in front of the whole team.

I'm no psychologist, but he sounds like a classic bully. To the outside world, butter won't melt in their mouth, but when they have the opportunity to exert some power and hurt people... away they go.

Maybe extreme, but if it's even close to how he was described, we've dodged a big bullet as much better players than those we lost would've been walking soon. Makes me wonder why we kept him so long.

Good riddance I say.


Would he last so long at the Cats if he was a bad egg?

Maybe there is a reason she is a former.

[bornadog]

Would he last so long at the Cats if he was a bad egg?

Maybe there is a reason she is a former.

An assistants role is way different to the senior coach.

[LostDoggy]

Was always a Macca fan. I lapped up all his rhetoric about recruiting fine young men, about needing to build the game from the inside out, about how the culture of the club needed changing and about how we were on the path to success.

Then last week I was having dinner and the waitress turned out to be the former girlfriend of a currently listed player. She said the even she had thought the same. A teacher. A nice guy. He always spoke so well. Her boyfriend, however, told her of how he used to make some of the younger players cry by focussing on just one small error and belittling them in front of the whole team.

I'm no psychologist, but he sounds like a classic bully. To the outside world, butter won't melt in their mouth, but when they have the opportunity to exert some power and hurt people... away they go.

Maybe extreme, but if it's even close to how he was described, we've dodged a big bullet as much better players than those we lost would've been walking soon. Makes me wonder why we kept him so long.

Good riddance I say.

My mother told me about something similar, but to be honest, my mum — love her though I certainly do — has a flair for the melodramatic. I didn't believe her. She loved Crossy and I figured it was bitterness.

Then I heard whisperings about Talia being unhappy. Still I didn't buy it. Maybe these guys were just soft and couldn't be told a hard truth.

I think it's probably about time I took another look at my opinion of Macca. After all, what's the good of participating in a forum if I'm not prepared to change my opinion when new information presents itself, or is confirmed? It would be silly, right? ;)

[Maddog37]

Not sure if I had shared it on here previously but I heard a similar story from a father of one of his students regarding publicly ridiculing him.

[bulldogtragic]

Not sure if I had shared it on here previously but I heard a similar story from a father of one of his students regarding publicly ridiculing him.

Was that Jackson's dad?

[Maddog37]

Was that Jackson's dad?

No, the kid was a student at Geelong grammar.

[LostDoggy]

No, the kid was a student at Geelong grammar.

I have a story from a student from there. He doesn't hold a grudge, there's no point me telling it, doesn't help anyone.

[Maddog37]

I have a story from a student from there. He doesn't hold a grudge, there's no point me telling it, doesn't help anyone.

Yeah I feel a bit dirty discussing this to be honest. No one is perfect.

[bornadog]

Yeah I feel a bit dirty discussing this to be honest. No one is perfect.

However, what it does show was sacking him was the right thing to do.

[Remi Moses]

That is all we have to go by..... history.

So that would mean the likes of Alan Joyce is a better coach than Ross Lyon because he has a flag and Lyon doesn't.
The list plays a significant part on a coaches tenure .
To say otherwise is folly

[bornadog]

So that would mean the likes of Alan Joyce is a better coach than Ross Lyon because he has a flag and Lyon doesn't.
The list plays a significant part on a coaches tenure .
To say otherwise is folly

Yes - Alan Joyce has a premiership.

[chef]

Yes - Alan Joyce has a premiership.

So that logic makes Shane Ellen a better player than Chris Grant.

[jeemak]

However, what it does show was sacking him was the right thing to do.

You mean, eventually sacking him after trying to do everything possible to keep him? If our previous captain had have been true to his word and able to maintain some semblance of intestinal fortitude he'd still be coaching us today.

Remember Eade calling Will Minson the dumbest smart bloke in the AFL, publicly? You've heard all of the stories about the horrible sprays he dished off to Lake in his time with the club, and being one of the angriest and harshest coaches in the AFL no doubt. With this in mind, do you agree sacking Eade was the right thing to do?

I get really concerned when we start assassinating characters based on second and third hand information.

[ratsmac]

It does seem a little convenient that all these Macca story's come out now too. One thing we know for sure is he obviously had mismanaged some of his players and quite frankly, if your not winning games of footy this type of division will snowball very quickly and can only end in one way, and it did.

I was a supporter of Macca but I think I can say that I am glad that was here, but I'm glad he is gone. Forward and onward we go!!

[bornadog]

So that logic makes Shane Ellen a better player than Chris Grant.

Shane Ellen was part of a premiership team, so the team is better than the team Chris played in.


You mean, eventually sacking him after trying to do everything possible to keep him? If our previous captain had have been true to his word and able to maintain some semblance of intestinal fortitude he'd still be coaching us today.

By the sounds of it there was more to his sacking than just Griffen.


Remember Eade calling Will Minson the dumbest smart bloke in the AFL, publicly? You've heard all of the stories about the horrible sprays he dished off to Lake in his time with the club, and being one of the angriest and harshest coaches in the AFL no doubt. With this in mind, do you agree sacking Eade was the right thing to do?

Eade's time was perhaps up and it was time for a change.

Those spray's etc are the old fashion way of coaching, or managing people, ie management by fear. Anyone doing that now won't last too long, as it is not a way to motivate people and it's not the way we speak to each other in a civilised manner. You being an intelligent person and having played the game would know this.


I get really concerned when we start assassinating characters based on second and third hand information.

In this particular case, there is so much evidence coming out, that the sacking which surprised many people, was warranted. I don't believe it is all third hand information. I know people that have spoken to players and there were issues. That is why he is no longer with us.

[chef]

Shane Ellen was part of a premiership team, so the team is better than the team Chris played in.


Just like the team Joyce had was better, the same as Ellen v Grant. That team played on autopilot to win the flag.

Joyce showed elsewhere he wasn't a great coach.

[Sedat]

Whatever the guff about the internal rumblings that went on last year (that frankly none of us would know about with clarity), BMac was simply not up to the standard required for a senior coach in many aspects of the role. The basic blueprint of winning contested ball is the minimum standard required at all successful clubs, and is only a small portion of the overall game plan - in the 3 years under BMac it became the entire game plan.

Our contested ball and clearance numbers under BMac were elite, but was the quality of the clearances and the CP's actually benefitting the team in other areas? And did our overwhelming focus on one specific area mean that we fell backwards in other areas and also made us very predictable and easy to coach against? A quality, well-rounded senior coach can focus on multiple elements at the one time, something that obviously proved beyond him. Like I said earlier in the thread, he came in with a fantastic resume and did his best - he won't be the last senior coach to be found not up to the mark.

[bornadog]

Just like the team Joyce had was better, the same as Ellen v Grant. That team played on autopilot to win the flag.

Joyce showed elsewhere he wasn't a great coach.

You don't get my point.

Look back to say 80, 90 years ago, do you know who was a good coach or not? The only way we know is through either win/loss ratios or grand final winning coaches. Every coach has an excuse like poor list, injuries in finals, etc etc, but we don't remember that as we look back in history.

[Sedat]

You don't get my point.

Look back to say 80, 90 years ago, do you know who was a good coach or not? The only way we know is through either win/loss ratios or grand final winning coaches. Every coach has an excuse like poor list, injuries in finals, etc etc, but we don't remember that as we look back in history.
Someone like Len Smith is well regarded today as an innovative and excellent coach, and he achieved no real success. There are exceptions.

[The Pie Man]

The manner of his departure (or our former #16 more to the point) leaves a sour taste in my mouth, but it was an end that had to be met. Example - I know Jones was horribly inconsistent, but I'd rather him playing in the same forward line with Boyd than Redpath & alienating him seems/ed so unnecessary - Redpath's debut was a good example of what irked me about Macca's coaching. Dropping Jones for Redpath badffled me - try Jack by all means, but not against Harry Taylor with no other big to offer support / take 1st choice backman.

New forward stucture on display last Saturday alone has me excited, not to mention style of play and what looks a renewed apetite for the contest.

[Remi Moses]

Yes - Alan Joyce has a premiership.
If you want an example of a list meaning everything to a coach and his legacy just look at Dennis Pagan .
Great list at Norf, and an horrendous list at Carlton .
Does this mean he can't coach? Or does it say he had a shocking list at Carlton?
Joyce took us to the bottom, and this must mean Wallace is a better coach,But Joyce has 2 flags!
It's a flawed simplistic argument trotting out records, as there are different situations

[Scraggers]

I was an Eade fan ... Not renewing his contract because he thought we needed a complete rebuild baffled me. We did need the rebuild; our list was aging and hard decisions needed to be made.

BMac won the role as he said our list and game plan needed tweaking. I refused to judge BMac on two seasons based on his summation of our club. His contract extension was a farce and in the end probably cost us and extra season with him, which in turn cost us Voldemort (the former #16)

BMac played his role to perfection ... he was an interim coach, someone who we could blame for poor results, someone who would get rid of aging players and someone who would eventually fall on his sword to make way for another.

I am kinda thankful for his reign at the club ... our recruiting has been Class A in the last couple of years and the reinstatement of Footscray VFL team is brilliant ... I am confident he played an integral role in both of these.

Is Beveridge the answer ??? No idea ... we are one game in. What I do know is four of our young stars have recommitted to the club in the last week and a bit ... to me, that speaks volumes.

Importantly though, I enjoyed beating the Eagles !! Bloody oath ... love living in Perth when we beat the Eagles !!!

[bulldogtragic]

Jackson on 360 said he was in NYC with Bonts when he heard about Griff/Macca. Said Dale Morris called them instantly both to discuss how to rebuild the club.

[Maddog37]

God I love Dale Morris.

[jeemak]

Shane Ellen was part of a premiership team, so the team is better than the team Chris played in.

By the sounds of it there was more to his sacking than just Griffen.

Eade's time was perhaps up and it was time for a change.
Those spray's etc are the old fashion way of coaching, or managing people, ie management by fear. Anyone doing that now won't last too long, as it is not a way to motivate people and it's not the way we speak to each other in a civilised manner. You being an intelligent person and having played the game would know this.

In this particular case, there is so much evidence coming out, that the sacking which surprised many people, was warranted. I don't believe it is all third hand information. I know people that have spoken to players and there were issues. That is why he is no longer with us.

I guess in these situations it's important to acknowledge who of those involved gets to control the narrative post the event.

The club is obviously in the box seat, as its able to suggest it tried to work through the issues and almost found a go forward position, that was only derailed by the shock departure of its captain.

The players (those at the club, and those no longer), irrespective of their actions leading up to the event, get to say how they're benefiting from a fresh start, different message and a new way forward with a new coach who makes them feel good after a preseason of positive results, following by some reports six months of rampant negativity from their coach, and fewer reports of issues ongoing unresolved issues prior to that.

Then you have the previous coach. Needing to get a job with a new club he's completely screwed if he opens up about the issues he had with the club that just sacked him, and the players that made his job so difficult that he had to resort to acting in the way he did. Tough gig, especially considering he doesn't have the benefit of responding to reports that he made grown men cry, publicly belittled students in a previous school job (I was belittled publicly by teachers when I was a kid, and at the time I was pretty pissed off about it, but mostly it happened because I was a right shit) and a good talker but poor listener.

Perhaps everything said about McCartney's true. Perhaps his issues at the Bulldogs had nothing to do with a listing of senior players - of whom many have left the club, with evidence of very dry eyes from interested onlookers - that wouldn't buy in and through their negativity riddled the playing group with a poor culture as some disinterested observers claim to have been our issue since the 2008 season.

We'll never know.

Aside from any of that, he's gone now, and the club needs to move onward and prove that it made the right decisions through the crises of October 2014.

[bornadog]

at the time I was pretty pissed off about it, but mostly it happened because I was a right shit and a good talker but poor listener.

So nothing has changed. :D

Sorry couldn't resist.

[jeemak]

So nothing has changed. :D

Sorry couldn't resist.

If you removed the end-bracket in that sentence it's pretty much nailed me.

[comrade]

I think the McCartney era will be looked at in a similar context to that of Peter Schwab's time at Hawthorn.

Both had reasonably short tenures with little success, but some good drafting and the development of a strong VFL affiliate (Box Hil / Footscray) allowed the club to rise quickly once the 'right' coach was installed.

Perhaps Macca was the recession we had to have and now it's boom time.

[bornadog]

If you want an example of a list meaning everything to a coach and his legacy just look at Dennis Pagan .
Great list at Norf, and an horrendous list at Carlton .
Does this mean he can't coach? Or does it say he had a shocking list at Carlton?
Joyce took us to the bottom, and this must mean Wallace is a better coach,But Joyce has 2 flags!
It's a flawed simplistic argument trotting out records, as there are different situations

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/585400325210644481/44tqFjBu.jpg :D

[jeemak]

Interesting mash up of faces.

[LostDoggy]

The other thing is I don't need to keep hearing the question from everyone "what's that on Macca's nose?"

"i DONT KNOW!!!!"

[Twodogs]

It's a melanoma that was cut out the year before last.

[jeemak]

Way to take the mystery out of it Twodogs.

This thread has gotten significant leg-ups from potential truths and half truths, I think it's a bit unfair for you to shut it down with that matter of fact type of information.

[Maddog37]

It's a melanoma that was cut out the year before last.

Or was it...........?

(Just for Jeemak)

[Twodogs]

Way to take the mystery out of it Twodogs.

This thread has gotten significant leg-ups from potential truths and half truths, I think it's a bit unfair for you to shut it down with that matter of fact type of information.


It might have been last year...

[bulldogtragic]

I'm not wishing to make this about the ex-coach per se. But much of the improvement this year has come from players he had. Boyd has been a revelation down back, Easton not playing third tall has been critical, Grant up the ground is proving important, Roughy looks good as a ruckman, Kobes role has seen him flourish and Picken is showing elite midfield form and not as a back pocket.

Leaving gameplay and style to one side, and player development aside, we have seen staggering results as per above that it seems almost baffling that 6 of our best 12 players this year were essentially playing out of position last year. In an elite and professional environment and highly credentialed coaches, how could that be???

[jeemak]

I think a lot of these changes have been born from necessity.

Roberts and Hamling have proven ready to take a lot of the load in the backline, with the former maturing into the role when he wasn't ready last year. This has eased Wood's requirement to play tall. Boyd on the other hand was probably one out of the box that nobody would have seen, and with Higgins moving on the spot has become his to own.

Losing Libba, the former captain and Smith has meant others have had to play through the middle, which has meant Wallis and Picken have had to take on more front line responsibility, and with the new coach not believing in tagging so much each has been able to flourish. If all of the players we've lost were playing things might have been different.

Grant played the best football he's played for the club under the previous coach to date, and last year his season was cruelled by injury, so his form this year whilst encouraging hasn't anything to do with how he was managed in the past. As good as he's been up the ground I personally think he'll eventually be pushed closer to goal as some of the younger players develop. Having said that I'm really happy he's playing his role well as it stands.

As for Roughead, I still think I've seen him play better games as a defender compared to what I've seen him play in the ruck. In the latter position I think his performances have been fairly well overrated, but I'm on the outer in that regard and so be it.

Koby's role hasn't really changed. He's just becoming more reliable week in and week out.

Losing players through trade, retirement and injury has forced our hand this year. If we had have come into this season with the same list we finished last year with - but with a new coach - I'm not sure we'd have seen the improvement in certain players we have.

[bornadog]

Players under the Macca era were forced to play a different brand of football, a brand that was outdated as it was based on Geelong of the past, a game plan that has been superseded. Senior players such as Boyd, Morris, Murphy were asked to give up their own game and help coach the younger players.

Bevo has released the players from their shackles and let them play their natural style.

[jeemak]

Players under the Macca era were forced to play a different brand of football, a brand that was outdated as it was based on Geelong of the past, a game plan that has been superseded. Senior players such as Boyd, Morris, Murphy were asked to give up their own game and help coach the younger players.

Bevo has released the players from their shackles and let them play their natural style.

Does Macca get any credit for getting the list in the position it is now?

[Remi Moses]

Players under the Macca era were forced to play a different brand of football, a brand that was outdated as it was based on Geelong of the past, a game plan that has been superseded. Senior players such as Boyd, Morris, Murphy were asked to give up their own game and help coach the younger players.

Bevo has released the players from their shackles and let them play their natural style.

Agree, but one thing we do that McCartney implored is hunt the football.
I see McCartney more as a development type coach, than having the tactical nous to be a successful senior coach

[jeemak]

Agree, but one thing we do that McCartney implored is hunt the football.
I see McCartney more as a development type coach, than having the tactical nous to be a successful senior coach

It's certainly one thing he did.

The culture of the club and the senior players at the club not wanting to do things differently hurt Macca just as much as anything else.

[boydogs]

Leaving gameplay and style to one side, and player development aside

Player development explains a lot of the changes though, either Macca or Bevo trying guys in new roles. Even Boyd to the backline was probably to give more midfield time to the kids

[jeemak]

Player development explains a lot of the changes though, either Macca or Bevo trying guys in new roles. Even Boyd to the backline was probably to give more midfield time to the kids

It's really been a great change though. Boyd is now in a good position to have another productive year as a result of it, when he wouldn't have had the chance if he continued in the midfield.

When Liberatore comes back next year it's going to change things up a little bit, and if Smith can get back as well it will do so even more so. What happens to Wallis and Picken when they do?

[FrediKanoute]

It's really been a great change though. Boyd is now in a good position to have another productive year as a result of it, when he wouldn't have had the chance if he continued in the midfield.

When Liberatore comes back next year it's going to change things up a little bit, and if Smith can get back as well it will do so even more so. What happens to Wallis and Picken when they do?

In my mind Libba needs to earn his spot back - attitude and form will dictate whether her does. Its a nice problem, but a knee really is a 2 year injury.

[Hotdog60]

I think the players that have left have done more to help our club rise than anyone one thing. Macca gave our younger player under his control a good foundation and Bevo has moved them on to the next step. Hard to say that these players wouldn't have done the same results under Macca as I think he was playing the long game. Maybe he fault was the plan was stretch out to far.

Clearing of the old players and the removal of the coach may have been the blessing in disguise. Although I was upset at the time as much as the rest on here. I think I'm over it and good luck to those that have left and I think we will be better because of it.

[GVGjr]

There is no doubt in my mind that McCartney left us with a vastly superior team than he inherited. His 'good young men' mantra that so many latched onto in a negative sense has actually served us well and the defensive mindset of contested footy he instilled was certainly needed. The challenges he laid at the feet of many of the experienced players, that ultimately led to his departure and the departure of a few players that only wanted to play their footy one way, was another huge bonus for the team in the longer term.

Bevo has added so much to that base and his take 'take the game on' style has resonated so positively with the playing group.

Exciting times await.

[LostDoggy]

We're driving so fast that a glance in the rear view mirror is a very cursory one. Thanks Macca, good luck, so long, hey Bevo, hey guys, next week. Next year. The Fewch.

[ledge]

Macca has a great eye for talent and has left us in the best place we have been in for over 50 years as far as young talent and quality people/players is concerned.
Sadly he just couldn't coach or get on with every type of player personality.
His mark in the next ten years will be unquestionable though.

[merantau]

I'd be interested in knowing how our percentage under McCartney compared with our percentage under other coaches in recent years. All I know is, I can't remember such a series of crushing defeats, as we endured under McCartney, ever. And I saw my first Bulldogs game in 1956. To be beaten week in week out by 8 - 10 goals must have been devastating for all concerned. He could talk the talk convincingly, we all knew what he was trying to do, but hearing the mantra - 'teaching the basics', there are certain non-negotiables', 'doing the team thing' - repeated ad naseum became unconvincing in the face of continual drubbings. There is no doubt that he gathered a lot of good young talent around him but he didn't develop a game plan to make use of it. Too one-dimensional so he had to go.

[Stefcep]

I'm not wishing to make this about the ex-coach per se. But much of the improvement this year has come from players he had. Boyd has been a revelation down back, Easton not playing third tall has been critical, Grant up the ground is proving important, Roughy looks good as a ruckman, Kobes role has seen him flourish and Picken is showing elite midfield form and not as a back pocket.

Leaving gameplay and style to one side, and player development aside, we have seen staggering results as per above that it seems almost baffling that 6 of our best 12 players this year were essentially playing out of position last year. In an elite and professional environment and highly credentialed coaches, how could that be???

I think there are coaches who build a game plan according to the players abilities, and there are other coaches who force the players to fit the game plan.

[dukedog]

I think there are coaches who build a game plan according to the players abilities, and there are other coaches who force the players to fit the game plan.

that is exactly what happened. Some guys just play footy the way their brains make them play. Hard wired. You can struggle to change players. Especially in pressure acts. Its all instinctive.

[Ozza]

that is exactly what happened. Some guys just play footy the way their brains make them play. Hard wired. You can struggle to change players. Especially in pressure acts. Its all instinctive.

Of course you can change the way they play. Why else is there a troupe of professional coaches at every club?

Its all very well to say that players are freed up, and playing on instinct...but its not really the reality.

Beveridge may have the players playing with better ball movement (generally speaking), but he's also implemented a completely different defensive set up that players had to learn, which they had to be taught (or re-programmed) to implement.

[GVGjr]

I think there are coaches who build a game plan according to the players abilities, and there are other coaches who force the players to fit the game plan.

I'm not so sure the first option is a recipe for success because you aren't necessarily challenging them to become better footballers or footballers in a team structure that competes well against the best side. You will likely get some initial improvement but not sustainable success.

Bevo has challenged the team and the individual to get better and we need to look no further than Matthew Boyd being challenged to become a defender where all of his previous coaches accepted a level of unaccountability from him.
He has also demanded that previously defensive minded players take the game on more and Easton Wood has become one of the best in competition with intercept marks as well as being a candidate for AA selection.

Players have also been challenged to get out of their comfort zone with regards to their skill levels.

Bevo has found the right blend of building on the foundations that Macca set and turned it up to play a more attacking brand of footy.