Ayce Cordy - Where to Now?

[bornadog]

Ayce has played two shocking games in a row and really needs to go back to the VFL and work on his game.

After being drafted in 2008, he has only played 22 games and this is his 7th season and he will be turning 25 in August.

Does anyone think he will make it and what role do you see him in if you do. Personally, I can't see any improvement this year.

[AndrewP6]

Nope, marking time. He's had time, failed to show much.

[Before I Die]

He has good dexterity but he is so slow. I can't see him making it now. Did he have pace as a junior?

[boydogs]

I'm interested to hear from VFL watchers on this. What in his game made him BOG 2 weeks ago in the VFL that hasn't come through at AFL level

[Dancin' Douggy]

If his name was, say, Kevin Jeffreys, and he was taken with pick 52 in the draft, he would have been delisted 4 years ago.

[G-Mo77]

If his name was, say, Kevin Jeffreys, and he was taken with pick 52 in the draft, he would have been delisted 4 years ago.

Completely disagree, regardless of who is name was we rated him enough to draft him with a high pick. He's had setback after setback so the reason to invest time in him is more than just a name.

Not sure on Ayce. He can do it at VFL level and looks great there, AFL, he's struggling to get to that next level. I'd personally like to see him take on some real ruck duties. Today he was forced to play back which obviously didn't suit, every other game he's played he's a pinch ruck who plays forward . His best games have been as a ruck in the VFL I'd like to see him at least given some big stints in the ruck at AFL level. I haven't given up yet, he's got the rest of the year to prove his worth. Right now it's not looking to good.

[LostDoggy]

I think he may have actually kicked the ball.

[comrade]

The question I ask myself is: why does a player like Ceglar emerge at Hawthorn after getting dumped by Collingwood and showing very little in his first 4 or so years? Both players are in the mid 20s, both are bean pole type ruck man, yet the Hawks player is having an influence at AFL level and our guy is giving us nothing.

Were the Hawks able to carry Ceglar while he worked his way up to this level? Should we show similar patience?

Or was he sent back to Box Hill repeatedly to work on his game?

[soupman]

The question I ask myself is: why does a player like Ceglar emerge at Hawthorn after getting dumped by Collingwood and showing very little in his first 4 or so years? Both players are in the mid 20s, both are bean pole type ruck man, yet the Hawks player is having an influence at AFL level and our guy is giving us nothing.

Were the Hawks able to carry Ceglar while he worked his way up to this level? Should we show similar patience?

Or was he sent back to Box Hill repeatedly to work on his game?

Possibly the biggest factor to note is that when Ceglar plays he does so in his best position, as a ruckman. McEvoy and Hale are both versatile enough to offer something up forward.

Unfortunately for us Minson is a useless forward, meaning Campbell and Cordy either have to wait for Minson to get dropped/injured/suspended, or continue to play 80% of their game time as forwards.

[Mofra]

Does anyone think he will make it and what role do you see him in if you do.
Ruckman. Ruckman only.

Right now he's not up to being a forward at AFL level. Redpath was unlucky to be dropped R1 and at least got to the right spots.

[jeemak]

Possibly the biggest factor to note is that when Ceglar plays he does so in his best position, as a ruckman. McEvoy and Hale are both versatile enough to offer something up forward.

Unfortunately for us Minson is a useless forward, meaning Campbell and Cordy either have to wait for Minson to get dropped/injured/suspended, or continue to play 80% of their game time as forwards.

Playing in your most favoured position in the best team in the competition can do wonders for your game and how you're perceived by people.

Playing out of your favoured position in a crap team can be quite detrimental to your prospects of establishing a career.

Ayce needs to go back to the twos, show aggression, continue to stay involved in the game and put a number of solid performances together. At senior AFL level he doesn't do any of these things and must if he is to forge any sort of career.

[F'scary]

Playing in your most favoured position in the best team in the competition can do wonders for your game and how you're perceived by people.

Playing out of your favoured position in a crap team can be quite detrimental to your prospects of establishing a career.

Ayce needs to go back to the twos, show aggression, continue to stay involved in the game and put a number of solid performances together. At senior AFL level he doesn't do any of these things and must if he is to forge any sort of career.

For a bloke who is over 2m tall and 100kgs, Ayce's tip toe through the tulips display yesterday should earn him the nickname "Tiny Tim."

[Bulldog4life]

I haven't given up entirely on Ayce yet I am not as confident that he will make it as I once was. Unfortunately like most have said Ayce's best position is ruck and he has done very little of this in his two games back. While Big Will is in the team both Cordy and Campbell's time to ruck in the seniors is limited. Yet they seem to ruck well as a tandem in the VFL both capable of kicking goals. Will we ever see this tandem being used in the AFL? Not sure but I for one would be interested to see how they go.

[josie]

Really hope Ayce blossoms at AFL level and soon.

IMO Ayce makes Peter Street (anyone remember him?) look like a good player. Any 1 on 1's and I'm almost certain Ayce will lose at AFL level.

I will be fascinated what happens from here with Ayce. I do understand he is a better ruckman than anything else, however the days of ruckman only being good ruckman are almost gone. Big Will is an exception and perhaps that's one of our problems - as noted by earlier poster.

I am flabbergasted at how poor an overhead mark or punch away he is and how he has not learnt to reach above his head to use his height to advantage after 7 years in the system. Even allowing for the fact he was injured earlier in his career, I think he must deliver very soon or he is gone. His physical presence is also, IMO, appalling.

[ratsmac]

Surely this is his last go at AFL level. He has given us donuts. He would have to be tearing the door down in the VFL to get another chance.
Redpath is the unluckiest player in the world to be dropped for Ayce Cordy.

[Remi Moses]

Ayce is a ruckman and not a forward. I disagree about being delisted if he wasn't father son pick basically they're thinking along the lines of big players taking time to mature.
Ayce was even behind from the start, but I just think he's got worse.

[Dazza]

I think it's time to let Ayce go.

AFL ruckman tend to dominate the VFL (Skipper, Street etc) Ayce doesn't really do much at all.

Too slow when he bulks up, too weak when he drops weight.

[LostDoggy]

Just think: if he gets another run this week he's hit his average games for the season. I don't think its pessimistic or irrational to ask some serious questions at the end of the year as to why he should be retained. Big players take a long time to mature, sure, but on his current trajectory he won't give us anything for another 3-4 years, IF he does indeed make it. Can we wait that long, only to find ourselves back in the 2009 situation of being ready to go get a flag but missing important parts of the engine?

Campbell was also quite poor, in my view, on Saturday. Every time he touched the ball it seemed to go straight to a Box Hill player.

With Talia starting to show some good signs, if that continues I'd vote our number one priority in October would be a sound backup ruckman.

[Scraggers]

When is he contracted too?

[1eyedog]

I see him at Carlton next year supporting their rebuild.

[G-Mo77]

When is he contracted too?

Pretty sure this is his last year in a 3 year deal.

[bulldogtragic]

Pretty sure this is his last year in a 3 year deal.

I thought it was a 4 or 5 year deal?

Anyhoo you're right. He's got about 20 games of footy at the levels to show he can make the grade. If he doesn't, then he can become captain at Footscray or wherever else.

[Rocco Jones]

I am another guy saying he can only play as 1st ruck. An utter liability up forward.

[Ozza]

Why doesn't he jump at the ball like he did when he nearly took a hanger on the goal umpire yesterday!

[LostDoggy]

Why doesn't he jump at the ball like he did when he nearly took a hanger on the goal umpire yesterday!
Because he feels body contact, same problem Liam jones has.

[ratsmac]

I am another guy saying he can only play as 1st ruck. An utter liability up forward.

This is a big problem for the Bulldogs if what you think is right because this is the exact problem we have with Minson. Pretty much Minson, Campbell and Cordy are first rucks and useless resting forward. Campbell is the only one of the 3 that have shown glimpses that he can play a forward role at senior level. We have to make a decision between Cordy and Campbell to take over from Minson when he calls time. One has to be delisted next year IMO because we can't continue with 3 ruck or nothing players.
It is a must to trade or go to the draft for the type that can play ok in both positions.

[Greystache]

I am another guy saying he can only play as 1st ruck. An utter liability up forward.

I agree that he can't play forward at all, not convinced he's a ruckman either though. He's slow and pretty poor athletically, yet he doesn't have the physicality to counteract that, throw in the fact that he can't mark, and basically he's a tall male of football playing age. At best he'll be a tap ruckman at centre bounces, do nothing around the ground, and get monstered at the boundary throw in, all the while not being an option to play forward while resting.

It feels like we've been trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole for 7 years, when really we should have been looking for a different peg.

I go back to Eddie Prato, he was delisted after 2 years, yet he was just as good a footballer as Ayce, needed as much work to develop, and had the advantage over Cordy in that at least he was athletic. Not saying Prato would have made the grade but he was at least as likely as Ayce, yet we give one 2 years and the other 7. Hard to understand.

[bulldogtragic]

I agree that he can't play forward at all, not convinced he's a ruckman either though. He's slow and pretty poor athletically, yet he doesn't have the physicality to counteract that, throw in the fact that he can't mark, and basically he's a tall male of football playing age. At best he'll be a tap ruckman at centre bounces, do nothing around the ground, and get monstered at boundary throw in, all the while not being an option to play forward while resting.

It feels like we've been trying to hammer a square peg into a round home for 7 years, when really we should have been looking for a different peg.

I go back to Eddie Prato, he was delisted after 2 years, yet he was just as good a footballer as Ayce, needed as much work to develop, and had the advantage over Cordy in that at least he was athletic. Not saying Prato would have made the grade but he was at least as likely as Ayce, yet we give one 2 years and the other 7. Hard to understand.

Seven years you say. Maybe he should test free agency... :)

[Go_Dogs]

Seven years you say. Maybe he should test free agency... :)

What tier compensation do you think we'd receive? ;)

[The Doctor]

I agree that he can't play forward at all, not convinced he's a ruckman either though. He's slow and pretty poor athletically, yet he doesn't have the physicality to counteract that, throw in the fact that he can't mark, and basically he's a tall male of football playing age. At best he'll be a tap ruckman at centre bounces, do nothing around the ground, and get monstered at boundary throw in, all the while not being an option to play forward while resting.

It feels like we've been trying to hammer a square peg into a round home for 7 years, when really we should have been looking for a different peg.

I go back to Eddie Prato, he was delisted after 2 years, yet he was just as good a footballer as Ayce, needed as much work to develop, and had the advantage over Cordy in that at least he was athletic. Not saying Prato would have made the grade but he was at least as likely as Ayce, yet we give one 2 years and the other 7. Hard to understand.

yep, agree

I can't see him either as a forward or ruckman. He has no physical presence in a contest whatsoever and he just doesn't contribute anywhere near enough. I'd back Mitch Honeychurch to knock him off the ball. he makes Josh Fraser look like Carl Ditterich.

He has been given plenty of chances. The time is surely coming or has come where his papers get stamped.

I still shake my head that we passed up on Ben Brown for Fuller.

[bulldogtragic]

What tier compensation do you think we'd receive? ;)

First round pick, coming into his peak.... Just need someone to offer 4 years at $400,000 a year. Carlton? Melbourne? Tier 2 maybe. :)

[Go_Dogs]

First round pick, coming into his peak.... Just need someone to offer 4 years at $400,000 a year. Carlton? Melbourne? Tier 2 maybe. :)

7 years later, perhaps St Kilda still think he's worth a first round pick?

[bulldogtragic]

I still shake my head that we passed up on Ben Brown for Fuller.

You're not the only one....

[1eyedog]

Seven years you say. Maybe he should test free agency... :)

Going for Eker legend methinks.

[bulldogtragic]

7 years later, perhaps St Kilda still think he's worth a first round pick?

They passed on Bonts, so maybe worth a chat... :)

[kruder]

Completely disagree, regardless of who is name was we rated him enough to draft him with a high pick. He's had setback after setback so the reason to invest time in him is more than just a name.

Not sure on Ayce. He can do it at VFL level and looks great there, AFL, he's struggling to get to that next level. I'd personally like to see him take on some real ruck duties. Today he was forced to play back which obviously didn't suit, every other game he's played he's a pinch ruck who plays forward . His best games have been as a ruck in the VFL I'd like to see him at least given some big stints in the ruck at AFL level. I haven't given up yet, he's got the rest of the year to prove his worth. Right now it's not looking to good.

Yeah see I have not see one sign( and I mean one) in all the 7 years at the football club at VFL or AFL level to show that he is up to AFL standard. Does anyone have his career stats its must be scary?

What really confuses me about football clubs is that why would anyone hold a stock for 7 years without making any return? He may finally make a return in a few years but surely we have lost over the length of the trade? It's time to cut ties.

[Before I Die]

He has good dexterity but he is so slow. I can't see him making it now. Did he have pace as a junior?

I am going to cut him some slack. Just watched the replay again (masochist) and he played back from the end of the first quarter when Morris went down. Granted he did very little in the first quarter, but his opponents (most of the time) in McEvoy and Ceglar had no impact up forward. He basically spoiled and harassed, so the low stats are not a surprise. You wouldn't really expect him to provide any run, though the odd intercept mark would have been nice. It wasn't a good game but it is probably unfair to criticise him as a forward in this game as he spent very little time in the forward line.

[kruder]

I am going to cut him some slack. Just watched the replay again (masochist) and he played back from the end of the first quarter when Morris went down. Granted he did very little in the first quarter, but his opponents (most of the time) in McEvoy and Ceglar had no impact up forward. He basically spoiled and harassed, so the low stats are not a surprise. You wouldn't really expect him to provide any run, though the odd intercept mark would have been nice. It wasn't a good game but it is probably unfair to criticise him as a forward in this game as he spent very little time in the forward line.

Cut him some slack after 7 years on the list? Gee I wish you were my manager.

[Before I Die]

Cut him some slack after 7 years on the list? Gee I wish you were my manager.

I am only cutting him some slack from being criticised for his forward play in a game where he didn't play forward.

[LostDoggy]

Ayce has shown us nothing.
No physical presence(200cms,100kgs):(
No skill set,no nothing.
Best position?
Who the hell knows!:mad:
Redders was more then unlucky to be dropped for Cordy.
Sholud be back this week to take Ayce out.

[jeemak]

I am only cutting him some slack from being criticised for his forward play in a game where he didn't play forward.

Hahaha, don't think you can get out of this with objectivity mate!

I was disappointed that Ayce didn't have one or two moments where a kick out of defence from us was directed to him with any impact on the contest from him. His arial defending was ok, but his refusal to get involved beyond that puzzled me.

This is a guy who should be champing at the bit to be involved and improving, and I never see him do that at AFL level.

[LostDoggy]

What tier compensation do you think we'd receive? ;)

If it's anything less than pre-first round we've been ripped off by AFL House again.

[G-Mo77]

Yeah see I have not see one sign( and I mean one) in all the 7 years at the football club at VFL or AFL level to show that he is up to AFL standard. Does anyone have his career stats its must be scary?

What really confuses me about football clubs is that why would anyone hold a stock for 7 years without making any return? He may finally make a return in a few years but surely we have lost over the length of the trade? It's time to cut ties.

He hardly played a game at any level for 3 years while on our list which is why I personally think they've persisted with him. The 7 years is just a number which is exaggerated.

For those on here just bagging the hell out of him to make themselves feel better go back and find the article on him about how he was close to retirement 3 years in and how devatsed he was with having injury after injury.

[Greystache]

He hardly played a game at any level for 3 years while on our list which is why I personally think they've persisted with him. The 7 years is just a number which is exaggerated.

For those on here just bagging the hell out of him to make themselves feel better go back and find the article on him about how he was close to retirement 3 years in and how devatsed he was with having injury after injury.

He barely missed a game in his first season. He didn't play a couple late after hurting his back in a marking contest, but played every game before that. It was really only his second season that was a write off after doing his shoulder in round 1. Nothing about trying to make myself feel better, I've seen most of his career, and pre and post injuries I didn't see anything to suggest we had a player worth putting so many years into.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He barely missed a game in his first season. He didn't play a couple late after hurting his back in a marking contest, but played every game before that. It was really only his second season that was a write off after doing his shoulder in round 1. Nothing about trying to make myself feel better, I've seen most of his career, and pre and post injuries I didn't see anything to suggest we had a player worth putting so many years into.

Agreed.

Fans and the club itself talk about his injuries as if he's barely played any footy. As Grey said, his second season was a write off but he's had plenty of time on the field pre and post that period to develop into a footballer. I never rated him has a junior, and I've never rated him as an AFL listed player. He's improved at VFL level but he's no where near even being slightly competitive at the top level.

It is an absolute myth that he hasn't been able to get on the park. He's just not good enough.

[G-Mo77]

He barely missed a game in his first season. He didn't play a couple late after hurting his back in a marking contest, but played every game before that. It was really only his second season that was a write off after doing his shoulder in round 1. Nothing about trying to make myself feel better, I've seen most of his career, and pre and post injuries I didn't see anything to suggest we had a player worth putting so many years into.

Wasn't having a go at anyone with constructive posts Grey, more aimed at some others that don't. It seems some supporters need someone to belt into after a loss.

Did Ayce play 2s in his first season with us. I can't find anything on his ressy games.

[Greystache]

Wasn't having a go at anyone with constructive posts Grey, more aimed at some others that don't. It seems some supporters need someone to belt into after a loss.

Did Ayce play 2s in his first season with us. I can't find anything on his ressy games.

I can't recallr now, I never used to watch the Williamstown reserves, he might have played a couple. I know a lot of the Willi supporters were frustrated that Ayce was getting regular games in the seniors because they felt it was only for the Bulldogs development and he was a burden on the team. He played predominantly CHF in a lead up role, but really was more like a tall wingman.

[G-Mo77]

I can't recallr now, I never used to watch the Williamstown reserves, he might have played a couple. I know a lot of the Willi supporters were frustrated that Ayce was getting regular games in the seniors because they felt it was only for the Bulldogs development and he was a burden on the team. He played predominantly CHF in a lead up role, but really was more like a tall wingman.

Can't find any info on 2009. I could have sworn it was a write off.

Anywho FWIW.

2010 played 1 VFL 0 AFL
2011 13 VFL 2 AFL
2012 3 VFL 12 AFL
2013 10 VFL 5 AFL
2014 20 VFL 1 AFL

There is obviously some development leagues games in between there just can't find them.

[Greystache]

Can't find any info on 2009. I could have sworn it was a write off.

Anywho FWIW.

2010 played 1 VFL 0 AFL
2011 13 VFL 2 AFL
2012 3 VFL 12 AFL
2013 10 VFL 5 AFL
2014 20 VFL 1 AFL

There is obviously some development leagues games in between there just can't find them.

Yeah I had a look but couldn't see anything either. I'd say in 2009 he would've played about 16 games at a guess. He also used to get rested periodically for a week here and there, so it's also probably why you won't see many 20-22 game season.

[LostDoggy]

He hardly played a game at any level for 3 years while on our list which is why I personally think they've persisted with him. The 7 years is just a number which is exaggerated.

For those on here just bagging the hell out of him to make themselves feel better go back and find the article on him about how he was close to retirement 3 years in and how devatsed he was with having injury after injury.

I feel bad for the guy, sure. I remind myself constantly that I am sitting on my fat arse watching. But to suggest that this then equates to another contract, is almost the same situation we found ourselves in with Tom Williams = Great guy, struggled manfully, but if he ain't got it he ain't got it. I'm not for sacking the guy before the end of the season, and I wouldn't really mind if he gets a few more games to have a crack at it, but I think the club could very easily ensure he has something decent to move on to after footy and simply let him go. Perhaps get into the ears of rival clubs that might want to offer him a second go for a last-pick swap. In other words, look after him as a Bulldog as long as that falls short of a spot on the list in 2016.

[G-Mo77]

I feel bad for the guy, sure. I remind myself constantly that I am sitting on my fat arse watching. But to suggest that this then equates to another contract, is almost the same situation we found ourselves in with Tom Williams = Great guy, struggled manfully, but if he ain't got it he ain't got it. I'm not for sacking the guy before the end of the season, and I wouldn't really mind if he gets a few more games to have a crack at it, but I think the club could very easily ensure he has something decent to move on to after footy and simply let him go. Perhaps get into the ears of rival clubs that might want to offer him a second go for a last-pick swap. In other words, look after him as a Bulldog as long as that falls short of a spot on the list in 2016.

I haven't given up on him yet, he's got a contract for this season and if he plays well enough in the VFL I'd like to see him given a shot at the top again. That being said he's got to show quite a lot before I'd sign him for 2016 and even if he did I'd probably play it safe and go one year deals with incentives.

I think if we parted ways with him he'd probably retire.

[Rocco Jones]

His one saving grace is that of the 22 games he has played at AFL level, only one of them is in his preferred position of ruck.

If Cordy stars at VFL level, I would keep him. If he does't, I would go for a ruck/2nd ruck who does start at state league level/pinch one off another AFL club to replace him.

[Bulldog4life]

I am going to cut him some slack. Just watched the replay again (masochist) and he played back from the end of the first quarter when Morris went down. Granted he did very little in the first quarter, but his opponents (most of the time) in McEvoy and Ceglar had no impact up forward. He basically spoiled and harassed, so the low stats are not a surprise. You wouldn't really expect him to provide any run, though the odd intercept mark would have been nice. It wasn't a good game but it is probably unfair to criticise him as a forward in this game as he spent very little time in the forward line.

Good point BID. Actually Talia spoke him up at the presser after the game for the job he did in the backline..

[Bulldog Joe]

.... I think the club could very easily ensure he has something decent to move on to after footy and simply let him go. Perhaps get into the ears of rival clubs that might want to offer him a second go for a last-pick swap. In other words, look after him as a Bulldog as long as that falls short of a spot on the list in 2016.

I think his post footy is sorted. I believe he is/was studying medicine and just a little behind on that because of footy commitment.

[stefoid]

I just watched the first quarter. The ball was up the hawks end 2/3rds of the time - Think we had 4 or 5 F50 entries. Didnt see Cordy in shot until halfway through the quarter where he was involved in a couple of boundary throw-ins.

He wasnt anywhere in shot when boyd was contesting the long ball three times deep in the forward line. Id guess this is by plan? We got our goals form Boyd marking or contesting those long balls.

Ayce "contested" one kick down the line against Lake, but he was unfairly taken out of the contest before the ball arrived by Bruest - no free kick and an easy mark to Lake.

Latter in the quarter he contested a couple of centre ball-ups and fumble-shovelled a loose ball successfully to a teammate on the wing. Cant say he got anything that counted as a clean possession.

Difficult to say if he had a good/bad/indifferent quarter since he had so little opportunity to contest the ball, and in fact may have been assigned a decoy role out wide in any case.

[lemmon]

Looks like a doctor filling in for a footy side...which he very well may be.

I don't think he's soft and his skills aren't bad for a big guy but my real problem is how poor he is in marking contests he should be dominating, the slightest contact and he topples. It's almost as if he simply can't get enough momentum through his legs to attack the contest and go at the footy, he is permanently flat footed when the ball is put on his head against smaller opponents. I don't mind his work around the stoppage, he seems capable of laying a decent tackle and throwing some weight around at VFL level so I wouldn't mind a game where he plays permanently as a ruck but I don't think that will happen. Perhaps the Hawks game was an opportunity to try it out after half time considering the margin but he did a decent stopping job in the backline anyway.

If nothing changes at the end of the year we really have no option but to part ways. I would be okay with him being re-rookied at the end of the year as a mature injury replacement type and drafting a young ruck to take his spot on the main list but it's probably splitting hairs.

[kruder]

He hardly played a game at any level for 3 years while on our list which is why I personally think they've persisted with him. The 7 years is just a number which is exaggerated.

For those on here just bagging the hell out of him to make themselves feel better go back and find the article on him about how he was close to retirement 3 years in and how devatsed he was with having injury after injury.

Im not getting any pleasure out of it, injury or no injury Ace is simply not AFL standard.

[The Underdog]

Good point BID. Actually Talia spoke him up at the presser after the game for the job he did in the backline..

It was interesting that. He clearly made a point of mentioning that he'd done well in an unfamiliar role. Wonder if the internal rating of his game is a lot different to the external view.

[bornadog]

It was interesting that. He clearly made a point of mentioning that he'd done well in an unfamiliar role. Wonder if the internal rating of his game is a lot different to the external view.

It was very hard to tell watching on TV. If he was playing the backman role and just punching the ball away from the resting rucks, then maybe we have been harsh on him for this game. Bulldog Joe was ta the game and maybe he can enlighten us abit.

[Bulldog Joe]

It was very hard to tell watching on TV. If he was playing the backman role and just punching the ball away from the resting rucks, then maybe we have been harsh on him for this game. Bulldog Joe was ta the game and maybe he can enlighten us abit.

Yes I was at the game and positioned near the Southern end inside 50 and 4 rows back in the stand.

Unfortunately this gives quite a limited view of what is occurring inside the opposite 50 metre arc.

When I saw Boyd go into the ruck in the 2nd qtr, I wondered where Ayce had gone, but found him in the defensive 50. It was difficult to see what he was actually doing from that distance, but there was certainly one instance where he positioned himself but was taken out (unfairly) by Jarryd Roughead for no reward.

In the 3rq qtr he was in my zone, and I did comment on about 3 occasions that he had done well defensively in the packs.
He did get caught out on one occasion where he waited too long to go towards the ball and allowed an easy hand pass over the top.

I was surprised to see the depth of negatives, but he does need to be more aggressive and impact contests more regularly.

[F'scary]

Some food for thought:

Ayce Cordy AFL Stats by Game 2015 to date.



Description
Opponent
K
HB
D
M
G
B
T
HO
GA
I50
FF
FA
AF
SC


Round 3
Hawthorn
0
2
2
0
0
0
1
6
0
0
0
1
11
12


Round 2
Richmond
0
2
2
0
0
0
1
4
0
0
0
3
3
13



It seems very hard lately to write any negative criticism about player's performances without posters becoming outraged so I will restrict my comment to the absolute facts only to allow readers to draw their own conclusions:

He has given away as many frees as he has had disposals. Zero sum gain.

[bornadog]

Some food for thought:

Ayce Cordy AFL Stats by Game 2015 to date.



Description
Opponent
K
HB
D
M
G
B
T
HO
GA
I50
FF
FA
AF
SC


Round 3
Hawthorn
0
2
2
0
0
0
1
6
0
0
0
1
11
12


Round 2
Richmond
0
2
2
0
0
0
1
4
0
0
0
3
3
13



It seems very hard lately to write any negative criticism about player's performances without posters becoming outraged so I will restrict my comment to the absolute facts only to allow readers to draw their own conclusions:

He has given away as many frees as he has had disposals. Zero sum gain.




Really pitful. You can't have someone in your team with those stats.

[ratsmac]

Some food for thought:

Ayce Cordy AFL Stats by Game 2015 to date.



Description
Opponent
K
HB
D
M
G
B
T
HO
GA
I50
FF
FA
AF
SC


Round 3
Hawthorn
0
2
2
0
0
0
1
6
0
0
0
1
11
12


Round 2
Richmond
0
2
2
0
0
0
1
4
0
0
0
3
3
13



It seems very hard lately to write any negative criticism about player's performances without posters becoming outraged so I will restrict my comment to the absolute facts only to allow readers to draw their own conclusions:

He has given away as many frees as he has had disposals. Zero sum gain.



They are pretty damning stats.
Ayce must take his medicine and go back to the VFL and get angry. I like him when he's angry!
I'm sorry to say but I honestly can't see Ayce making it.

[G-Mo77]

They are pretty damning stats.
Ayce must take his medicine and go back to the VFL and get angry. I like him when he's angry!
I'm sorry to say but I honestly can't see Ayce making it.

Yeah he goes back and plays well in the VFL. Then what happens? It's just not happening as a forward. We tried him out in defence and he did a decent job there, makes our defence very top heavy though. Maybe he gets a reprieve and plays there on the weekend?

Unless he's playing predominately as a ruck I find it hard to put him in the side.

[divvydan]

Can't find any info on 2009. I could have sworn it was a write off.

Anywho FWIW.

2010 played 1 VFL 0 AFL
2011 13 VFL 2 AFL
2012 3 VFL 12 AFL
2013 10 VFL 5 AFL
2014 20 VFL 1 AFL

There is obviously some development leagues games in between there just can't find them.

Found my old 2010 AFL Prospectus and it mentioned that Cordy played 15 games at VFL level in 2009, of which 9 were at senior level and 6 in the reserves.

[Rocco Jones]

I think no one can argue that he is worth a spot in the side in anything other than the first ruck role (I am definitely not saying he is worth a spot in an AFL side as a first ruck, just that no one can argue that he is worth one as a 2nd ruck, seriously no one).

[Webby]

Cordy is a ruckman and only a ruckman.

He either plays ruck or nothing. Problem is, I think he is more of a reader than a gym junkie. I've never seen calves so skinny on a league footballer. I'd have hoped he'd have developed a lot more from a physical viewpoint over the years.

The hope from my viewpoint was that Ayce would hit the weights on the back of 2014 and come out a monster this year. His shoulders seemed to finally have knitted, so for mine, it was time to hit the gym.

Unfortunately, not the case. He's more suited to the medical profession than football. Good luck to him. I'd rather we rookie list Darcy Fort and move our best performed Footscray player onto our list next year.

My problem is, I've gone from Tom Campbell fan to Tom Campbell doubter over the past month. He needs to pull his finger out, too. I'm slightly concerned.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

My problem is, I've gone from Tom Campbell fan to Tom Campbell doubter over the past month. He needs to pull his finger out, too. I'm slightly concerned.

Agree somewhat. He has teased for a while and needs to string consistent performances together this season.

Having said that, he is coming off a shoulder reconstruction so he probably needs to be afforded another few weeks.

[LostDoggy]

I think we've been really lucky that Minno isn't injury prone or goes out and gets suspended a few times a year, because I find it really hard to have any confidence in our other rucks.

Minno might have his off weeks, but can't knock what he's given to us once he was able to step up into that No. 1 role, yes he's not a great resting-forward by any means but his All-Australian year was brilliant.

It worrys me we don't have a solid up & coming ruckman to take his place if he ever (knock wood) went down. Campbell comes in and looks good sometimes, but not good/consistent enough to hold his spot. As for Ayce, I agree with what's been said and Redpath looks more of a footballer down forward.

The kids are we coming through are great, but the Ruck has concerned me, as every year passes and we still don't have a clear #2, like Will was when Huddo was #1.

[1eyedog]

If he is first and foremost a ruckman then we are playing him out of position so what do we expect? It's unfair to criticise his output without giving him an opportunity to play to his strengths. He has played well in the ruck in the past and probably should get a run later in the year at the expense of Minson.

Minson is 30 and given the huge toll rucking by himself has had on his body I won't be surprised if he has 2-3 years left, we could see a fast decline. Also, if Will gets injured we're stuffed. Roughie hasn't rucked like ever and I personally hate the idea of Boyd rucking. Campbell has struggled to come back from surgery and may be a jack of all trades rather than a master at one.

Would hate to throw Cordy to the wolves when we may just have a good ruckman right under our noses. He deserves a chance to play there before we delist / trade him. If he's a ruckman he should be getting some exposure in the ruck, even if it ruffles Minson's feathers. We need to forward plan big time for this position otherwise we're going to have a gun midfield in 3-4 years time, no Minson and some hack in the ruck that we trade in because he can't crack a game elsewhere.

[bulldogtragic]

If you take out his 2012 season from his 7 years, he's played 11 AFL games over 6 years and in them averaged per game:

Less than 1 1%er
4 hit outs
1.5 tackles
Given away twice as many free kicks as he's been given
1 mark
6 disposals (1 kick for every 2 handballs)

And for every win he's played in, he's been in two losses.

Just the facts Jack. Just the facts.

[Webby]

I'd encourage everyone to come to the WO on Daturday and have a look at Darcy Fort. He might well be the ruckman we've been waiting for.

[ratsmac]

I'd encourage everyone to come to the WO on Daturday and have a look at Darcy Fort. He might well be the ruckman we've been waiting for.

If he is I'd hate to see another team snap him up in the draft like Freo did when we had Michael Barlow under our nose. And while we're at it Adelaide took Ben Hudson and Geelong took a punt on the J-pod. All these players could of easily been drafted earlier but recruiters missed them and they were starring right in our face.

[Webby]

If he is I'd hate to see another team snap him up in the draft like Freo did when we had Michael Barlow under our nose. And while we're at it Adelaide took Ben Hudson and Geelong took a punt on the J-pod. All these players could of easily been drafted earlier but recruiters missed them and they were starring right in our face.

Yep, you'd hope that having the players inside the club would lessen the likelihood of this happening in future. The period in which Barlow and JPod were not taken was a very, very poor era for WBFC recruiting.

It's why so many of us are a bit miffed with Scott Clayton's reputation.

I believe Mark Harvey (western suburbs boy) had a lot to do with Barlow's recruitment by Freo. Perhaps we had him on our radar, but expected him to drift a bit later. On JPod, he was on a number of clubs' radars. We weren't the only ones to embarrass ourselves, there.

You'd hope that with our own FFC coaching panel, that, with all of the opposition analysis, game analysis etc, that we'd have a better grasp on general VFL talent than we have in previous years. Hopefully that's a natural payoff.

[Ghost Dog]

If you take out his 2012 season from his 7 years, he's played 11 AFL games over 6 years and in them averaged per game:

Less than 1 1%er
4 hit outs
1.5 tackles
Given away twice as many free kicks as he's been given
1 mark
6 disposals (1 kick for every 2 handballs)

And for every win he's played in, he's been in two losses.

Just the facts Jack. Just the facts.

Well, if you put it like that....

[Sedat]

I know talls take time to develop, but for his 7 years on our list it has been an appalling return on our very significant investment. Tom Williams is mocked by some on here (kind of justifiably so), but putting his career next to Ayce's he starts to look like an AFL Hall of Famer - and his injury curse was far more brutal than Ayce's.

I have no faith in Ayce becoming even a decent AFL footballer.

[soupman]

I think Ayce is a good example of why you don't take ruckmen with early picks.

I'm of the thinking that if there's one position you can probably get away with only investing late picks or possibly even just rookie spots on its the ruck.

Drafting them at 18 means that very rarely do they make an impact in their first 4 seasons. You are much better served either drafting mature age prospects who you have seen develop their body somewhat and play against men (Ben Hudson, Jon Giles the second time round, even Tom Campbell), or trading for a fringe ruck from another side. As long as you aren't after a star ruckman, you can get pretty good value trading for players like Sam Jacobs, Stefan Martin, Billy Longer, Ben Hudson, Shane Mumford, Hamish McIntosh, Jon Griffin etc. Sure most are not stars, but at least by recruiting players that are already mature age or in the AFL system you could make a judgement call on whether or not they'll make it within 2-3 years, and they don't have excuses like "still growing into his body", "still adjusting to playing on men", "ruckmen take a long time, be patient".

In the 7 years Ayce has been on the list we could be onto our 3rd ruckman if we gave every one 3 years, or 4th if we only afforded them 2 years to prove themselves. And arguably they couldn't have had less of an impact than Ayce in the same period of time. When you consider the amount of ruckmen that don't make it, regardless of draft position, trying 3 out instead of committing to developing just 1 in the same time period is much more likely to see you find one.

[Greystache]

I know talls take time to develop, but for his 7 years on our list it has been an appalling return on our very significant investment. Tom Williams is mocked by some on here (kind of justifiably so), but putting his career next to Ayce's he starts to look like an AFL Hall of Famer - and his injury curse was far more brutal than Ayce's.

I have no faith in Ayce becoming even a decent AFL footballer.

Agree. The adage of talls take longer seems to mean to some people that you shouldn't expect to see anything from them until 27-28, which is of course ridiculous. Talls might take 3 years before they can have a real impact, but if a tall is 22-23 and not having any impact at all then it's because they're no good.

Ayce is nearly 25.

[G-Mo77]

I'd encourage everyone to come to the WO on Daturday and have a look at Darcy Fort. He might well be the ruckman we've been waiting for.

Still very lean for a 23 year old but I do like the kid a lot. I thought he was worth putting on the rookie list this season. He's getting better as well, his contested marking is quite good now.

[ReLoad]

Personally ive seen more in Campbell than Cordy, he is a good clunker of a mark, and is a decent kick, he also really gives it everything when the ball hits the deck, to me, he needs a run of a month/6 weeks in the seniors before he can be tossed away and say "Our ruck stocks are cactus"

[Sedat]

Whether it's Minson, Campbell, Cordy, Roughead, Redpath or even Boyd, whoever rucks needs to be able to contribute in other parts of the ground when they are not rucking. Minson can't really do so (although he's an animal in at the ground ball after the ruck stoppage), Campbell teases us up forward but hasn't proven anything consistently, Cordy cannot play anywhere else or do much of anything to get into the game, Roughy is becoming an essential component of our key defensive stocks, Redpath has shown some ability up forward to clunk a few (although not in R1) but needs to do it more consistently, and Boyd is obviously a blue chip long-term future key forward.

Cordy is comfortably the last on the above list I'm afraid. And his core ruck work doesn't demand a game ahead of Minson, otherwise he would have been playing first ruck a long time ago. Is he definitively the 2nd best 1st ruckman on our list? No. So why is he still on our list (aside from the absurd list management decision to give him a 3 year contract a while ago)?

Dalrymple got a lot of flack (completely justified) for selecting such a speculative player as Howard as his 1st draft selection in 2009 - it was a disastrous pick. But it was no less disastrous by Clayton to commit our 1st pick 12 months earlier on Cordy, especially on the back of virtually no U18 form in the year he was drafted due to injury. Add J Grant in 2007 and Everitt in 2006 and there's no surprise that our list is light-on for elite talent in that 24-27yo age range.

[bulldogtragic]

First Round Picks: Ayce Cordy (21 games over 7 years) vs Christian Howard (20 Games over 5 years) -

1.3 vs 1.9 - 1%er
3.3 vs 0 - hit outs
2.2 vs 1.7 - tackles
1/2 against vs 1/1.5 against - Free kicks ratio (both negative)
2.4 vs 3.45 - Marks
7.5 vs 14 - disposals (Both 1 kick for every 2 handballs)

[Twodogs]

First Round Picks: Ayce Cordy (21 games over 7 years) vs Christian Howard (20 Games over 5 years) -

1.3 vs 1.9 - 1%er
3.3 vs 0 - hit outs
2.2 vs 1.7 - tackles
1/2 against vs 1/1.5 against - Free kicks ratio (both negative)
2.4 vs 3.45 - Marks
7.5 vs 14 - disposals (Both 1 kick for every 2 handballs)

Zaine had better be worth it. And then Zaine @ pick 64 cancels out Ayce @ pick 14.

[bornadog]

But it was no less disastrous by Clayton to commit our 1st pick 12 months earlier on Cordy, especially on the back of virtually no U18 form in the year he was drafted due to injury. Add J Grant in 2007 and Everitt in 2006 and there's no surprise that our list is light-on for elite talent in that 24-27yo age range.

Ward and Harbrow say hello. Not Clayton's fault they are no longer at the club.

[Remi Moses]

Ward and Harbrow say hello

Still doesn't excuse the fact he has butchered to many 1st round picks .
Just look at Carlton for example for getting your first rounders wrong .

[bornadog]

Still doesn't excuse the fact he has butchered to many 1st round picks .
Just look at Carlton for example for getting your first rounders wrong .

How many did he butcher? Walsh, Cordy anyone else? Not all first rounders are stars of the game, but I think Murphy, Cooney, Griffen, Higgins, is not bad.

[Rocket Science]

I'll see your Murph, Cooney, Gryphon and Higgins and raise you a Sam Power, Andrejs Everitt, Jarrad Grant and perhaps a little unfairly, Tom Williams.

Inclined to chuck in a Farren Ray for good measure.

[Maddog37]

I would happily delist and rookie Ayce.

[FrediKanoute]

Does anyone think that the sub rule has also hampered Ayce's development? In days gone by the 2nd ruck would generally be carried via the bench.

[bornadog]

I'll see your Murph, Cooney, Gryphon and Higgins and raise you a Sam Power, Andrejs Everitt, Jarrad Grant and perhaps a little unfairly, Tom Williams.

Inclined to chuck in a Farren Ray for good measure.

All played and some still playing over 60 games of AFL, so what is the problem?

Whatever supporters think of Farren Ray, he has played almost 200 games of AFL football and in several Grand finals.

As I said, can't always pick elite with first round, but nothing wrong with picking players that can actually play football. We are sometimes obsessed with the first rounder. How about all the other late picked players like Brian Lake for example, or Will Minson.

I don't get this constant bagging and obsession with the bad picks and we conveniently forget the good picks.

Walsh and Cordy, are the biggest disappointments as first rounders from the Clayton era. Howard is from the Dalyrmple era to date.

For me the success of a draft pick is the amount of games a player can play. Can Cordy get to 50 - me thinks no.

[wimberga]

scratch

[G-Mo77]

Does anyone think that the sub rule has also hampered Ayce's development? In days gone by the 2nd ruck would generally be carried via the bench.

It hasn't helped.

[jeemak]

I see this thread has taken an unfamiliar and surprising path!

When we talk about Cordy we're talking about the least developed tall I've ever seen enter the game. I'm not happy with his output so far this year, and aside from his VFL form, last year was another disappointment. Prior to that however, I expected nothing from him because he was never going to be up to it physically, especially in light of his second year set back.

I was prepared to give him a chance to show us what he can do this year. If he only shows mild improvement I suggest we delist and rookie him. If he shows vast improvement he should be given an extension of one to two years. If he continues on this path then that's it, he needs to go.

[jeemak]

Double post.....

[Rocket Science]

All played and some still playing over 60 games of AFL, so what is the problem?

For me the success of a draft pick is the amount of games a player can play. Can Cordy get to 50 - me thinks no.

Of course, if simply getting a game is the key criteria then those first rounders have borne fruit.

But if the calibre of game and level of contribution is of equal consideration then the perspective shifts, dramatically.

Not to demean anyone credentialed enough to reach AFL level but the five I mentioned have largely plied their trade as highly frustrating list cloggers on uncompetitive teams. Better than those who never earn a game at all I suppose.

But am digressing, as you've said it's hard to mount a convincing argument that Cordy can crack it for a regular a game, let alone be a key contributor, unfortunately.

[Greystache]

Apparently where to from here is to just play him again.

Feels like Nick Leeson sort of stuff, we've lost so much we may add well keep doubling up and hoping for a miracle.

[Rocco Jones]

Looking at the sides, I think Ayce will play a Jackson Trengove 2nd ruck/defender role (I mean the same role, not quality). They have Walker, Lynch and Jenkins and we only have Roughead and Talia as key defender options. I think he will follow Jenkins all day. Play down back on him and go into the ruck against him when they are relieving their respective second rucks.

[F'scary]

Apparently where to from here is to just play him again.

Feels like Nick Leeson sort of stuff, we've lost so much we may add well keep doubling up and hoping for a miracle.

Let's just hope that Ayce can't do a Barings Bank on us!

[KT31]

Seriously this bloke must have been kissed on parts by a fairy to still be getting a game this week, one play alone last week, when in the last quarter he half bent down to scoop the ball up and it eluded him and they kicked a goal should have sealed his fate.

[Remi Moses]

How many did he butcher? Walsh, Cordy anyone else? Not all first rounders are stars of the game, but I think Murphy, Cooney, Griffen, Higgins, is not bad.

McMahon, power , Walsh . There's three in successive years to start with.
Grant , (I know your row 1 seat A on his bandwagon ) has been a disappointment, and particularly in comparison who we didn't pick .
Add Cordy to the list.Realise every team has misses, but getting 3 in a row wrong hurt immensely .
Getting the first pick wrong hurts immensely, that can't be argued

[macca]

Ceglar is a good example of a good pickup. now 24 years old. Discarded by the pies , apparently my hawks friend tells me collingwood had no ruck coach at the time and has developed with that dedicated coach. He has now played 20 games and looking to cement that number 1 ruck choice, verses McEvoy. Hawks obviously saw something of him, and his really come on in his 3rd year on hawks list. (even threatening to be a premo in fantasy footy!)

Hawks have delisted ruckman over the last 5 years: Adam Pattison , Brent renouf, Sam Grimley, Luke Lowden, Hugh Sandilands, Max Bailey(Retried) . Did Renouf play in a grand final ? the hawks are pretty efficient at moving players on early.

2014 draft, only 1 ruckman was picked up, and 2013, I think Brodie was picked up in first round. Teams are starting to rookie develop their ruckman, or pick them up as mature age( WC Lycette /Callum) , Syd Naishsmith.

[LostDoggy]

We need to ascertain Ayce's IP address and block him so he doesn't inadvertently read this thread.

[bornadog]

McMahon, power , Walsh . There's three in successive years to start with.
Grant , (I know your row 1 seat A on his bandwagon ) has been a disappointment, and particularly in comparison who we didn't pick .
Add Cordy to the list.Realise every team has misses, but getting 3 in a row wrong hurt immensely .
Getting the first pick wrong hurts immensely, that can't be argued

McMahon was a good footballer but had some personal issues - take alook at his game in from of 80,000 in 2006 finals. Played over 110 games.

Power made it to around 80 plus games. Not complete duds.

I will concede Walsh wasn't up to it. :D

[1eyedog]

McMahon, power , Walsh . There's three in successive years to start with.
Grant , (I know your row 1 seat A on his bandwagon ) has been a disappointment, and particularly in comparison who we didn't pick .
Add Cordy to the list.Realise every team has misses, but getting 3 in a row wrong hurt immensely .
Getting the first pick wrong hurts immensely, that can't be argued

Yeah well we could have got Cale Morton if Melbourne didn't jump in before us!
Did Adelaide really get Tex at 75 in that draft? FH!

[Sedat]

McMahon, power , Walsh . There's three in successive years to start with.
The hurt factor of these 3 selections was magnified in 2008-2010 when we were contending for a flag - had we nailed even 1-2 of these picks with top-end talent, the 2009 flag probably was ours (arguably had we used the Cordy pick to get Hall to the club a year earlier as he was keen to do, that alone probably would have been enough to win the 2009 flag). It's not that these guys were complete duds or didn't have some good games - but none of them were elite top-end talent, and I have no doubt that our lack of absolute elite talent compared to Geelong and St Kilda ultimately cost us a flag in 2009.

The 2006-2009 1st round selections of Everitt (almost N Krakouer), Grant (almost Cale Morton), Cordy and Howard will obviously hurt us but not as much because we won't be contending for a flag from 2014-2017. To be fair, Grant is not a complete write-off and could turn it around and become a consistent AFL footballer when we are ready to contend again, but you wouldn't want to put the house on it.

[Bulldog Joe]

Yeah well we could have got Cale Morton if Melbourne didn't jump in before us!
Did Adelaide really get Tex at 75 in that draft? FH!

Tex was a NSW scholarship selection. Probably the best player to go anywhere through that system.

[Sedat]

Where to now? First ruck it seems!

[dukedog]

Hahahha. Good form being rewarded i say.

[The Doctor]

Minson must have done something wrong. What else could it be?

He either isn't following instructions or maybe has an attitude problem. How else does a guy who can't get a kick get his place?

Cordy must now grab his chance once and for all. The coach is giving him this chance at the risk of being ridiculed for it.

[jeemak]

Minson must have done something wrong. What else could it be?

He either isn't following instructions or maybe has an attitude problem. How else does a guy who can't get a kick get his place?

Cordy must now grab his chance once and for all. The coach is giving him this chance at the risk of being ridiculed for it.

If we all agree that Cordy's only chance at playing at AFL level is as a first ruck, why is everyone judging the merits of his inclusion in that position based on his performances as a forward and defender these past two weeks?

Beveridge in his presser yesterday made it pretty clear Ayce is getting his chance on the basis of seeing if he is better than Will at it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Let's just see how he goes.

[bornadog]

Just hope he does well today as I don't want to see Boyd having to take over the ruck role.

[Rocco Jones]

Just hope he does well today as I don't want to see Boyd having to take over the ruck role.

I definitely don't see that happening. A big issue we have is that we can only play one of Will, Ayce and Campbell at a time. They really don't compliment each other at all. We will/should always play one this year though.

[G-Mo77]

Just hope he does well today as I don't want to see Boyd having to take over the ruck role.

I just hope he does well because I'd love to have another ruck we can rely on post Will.

[bornadog]

I just hope he does well because I'd love to have another ruck we can rely on post Will.

I don't think there would be a Bulldog supporter that would dispute that.

[G-Mo77]

I don't think there would be a Bulldog supporter that would dispute that.

You'd be surprised. All I've heard since Thursday is knife sharpening. If he does well or even just OK it'll hardly be acknowledged however if he's disappointing watch the knives come out in full force.

I'm not expecting the world from him today, he's up against one of the best rucks in the league. I'm hoping he gains some confidence and this is a stepping stone to becoming a better AFL player. He can do it in the VFL and IMO it's just lack of confidence that is holding him back from taking the next step. Fingers crossed for him today, I hope he does really well.

[Smads57]

The last time Ayce had the first ruck duties all to himself was last year when Minson was out and Campbell went off early.
I remember thinking at the time what a good job he did in that game.

I am 100% supportive of any player experimentation this year....I'm going to enjoy this journey with our team and the selections made this week keep me more interested in my football club than I have for a while.

[bornadog]

The last time Ayce had the first ruck duties all to himself was last year when Minson was out and Campbell went off early.
I remember thinking at the time what a good job he did in that game.

I am 100% supportive of any player experimentation this year....I'm going to enjoy this journey with our team and the selections made this week keep me more interested in my football club than I have for a while.

It was against Sydney and he had 14 hitouts to Mike Pike's 44 :eek: Also 10 disposals and one goal.

[chef]

Hopefully Ayce gets the latitude as Grant gets.

[chef]

You'd be surprised. All I've heard since Thursday is knife sharpening. If he does well or even just OK it'll hardly be acknowledged however if he's disappointing watch the knives come out in full force.

Yep. He's on a hiding to nothing.

[boydogs]

Yep. He's on a hiding to nothing.

I think the majority of supporters don't hold much hope but will be happy to acknowledge if he does well

[Remi Moses]

You'd swear Minson was Polly Farmer the way a few go on .
Had a great 2013 and has been below par since .

[GVGjr]

You'd swear Minson was Polly Farmer the way a few go on .
Had a great 2013 and has been below par since .

Where are you drawing that comparison from? Thats more than a bit creative.

[hujsh]

Hopefully Ayce gets the latitude as Grant gets.

Grant has at least given some glimpses of his ability in the past. Ayce has yet to do that (at least at AFL level) so it's normal that he'd have less support than Grant as we all have seen that he can be an AFL footballer.

[LostDoggy]

You'd be surprised. All I've heard since Thursday is knife sharpening. If he does well or even just OK it'll hardly be acknowledged however if he's disappointing watch the knives come out in full force.

I'm not expecting the world from him today, he's up against one of the best rucks in the league. I'm hoping he gains some confidence and this is a stepping stone to becoming a better AFL player. He can do it in the VFL and IMO it's just lack of confidence that is holding him back from taking the next step. Fingers crossed for him today, I hope he does really well.

I'm hoping he does well. But to complain about the knife sharpening, it's a bit rich. He's shown nothing in a long time, has had a handful of touches in two games, you can't blame people for sharpening the knives when Ayce is spinning the stone.

[LostDoggy]

The last time Ayce had the first ruck duties all to himself was last year when Minson was out and Campbell went off early.
I remember thinking at the time what a good job he did in that game.

I am 100% supportive of any player experimentation this year....I'm going to enjoy this journey with our team and the selections made this week keep me more interested in my football club than I have for a while.

Well said Smads.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

[boydogs]

What did people think of Ayce's game today?

[GVGjr]

What did people think of Ayce's game today?

He was well beaten but did some good things. I think it's a game to game question on if Minson or Cordy is the better option.
Loved him getting the first goal.

[AndrewP6]

What did people think of Ayce's game today?

Moved well across the ground. Kicked a good goal. Will probably hold his spot, but I'm not sold.

[F'scary]

What did people think of Ayce's game today?

Much better than the past 2 weeks but he's got a long way to go. Having said that, Minson has not been streets ahead of Cordy's performance today in the ruck in his 3 games before being dropped. I think Bevo is doing the right thing with a problem area by experimenting early in the season.

[ReLoad]

There is another dimension to all this, that's our forward line, with Boyd etc we don't need a resting ruckman (unless of course we had a Nic Nat clone) so it's all about finding a highly mobile combative pure ruckman.

I'd suggest a Sandilands or Mumford "type"

I still think Minson is that type, but at some point we need to move forward, and at the minute that's Ayce.

Ayce got spanked today, no questions, and I've got no doubt the future it's going to hurt more (wait till we play GWS or Freo) but in our development phase I guess we can wear it?

[comrade]

Being the number 1 ruck is much more than just what happens in a ruck contest.

I'm certainly not sold on Cordy being the answer, but I felt reasonably comfortable with his efforts and the option he provided around the ground.

Eventually, I think Campbell will become the number 1 guy who can bullock and tap, as well as move around the ground and create a marking option. But I like the idea of giving Cordy an extended go to confirm his spot on the list.

[boydogs]

I thought he competed well early but faded as the game wore on. The 2 late goals at the end of the 2nd quarter were largely due to clean clearances from Jacobs getting on top as Ayce tired. In the second half Roughead & T Boyd spent more time in there, and more often than not one of our mids went 3rd man up - we had 8 players with hitouts today, 10 of our 29 hitouts were from midfielders. At one point Bonts got the hitout then roved it himself

I don't think we should expect our mids to do that, not only does it tire them out it means one less man down to contest the ball after the ruck contest. We lost the clearances 43-34 despite being on top in general play, so it wasn't just meaningless hitouts

Cordy seemed to lack the tank to compete all day, at contests around the ground he seemed to stay off the pack like an outside mid and conserve energy, instead of locking the ball in or using his strength to help get the ball free to a team mate

I wonder if he has the strength but is lacking the strength endurance, his intensity at the start of the game looked good but he couldn't sustain it

[bornadog]

Cordy seemed to lack the tank to compete all day, at contests around the ground he seemed to stay off the pack like an outside mid and conserve energy, instead of locking the ball in or using his strength to help get the ball free to a team mate

I wonder if he has the strength but is lacking the strength endurance, his intensity at the start of the game looked good but he couldn't sustain it

Other than one game last year, he hasn't had to ruck all day at this level, so its understandable he would run out of legs.

[always right]

He competed well but benefited from our tactic of third man up. His ground level skills showed out on a couple of occasions and he got us out of a couple of pressure situations with good hands.

We did very well to nullify Jacob's influence in the middle where Ayce really struggled to get to the ball due to Jacob's bigger and stronger body. Hate to think what Sandilands will do to him. Reckon Ayce did anough to earn another shot the next couple of weeks but it's going to be a game to game proposition thereafter depending on who we are up against.

I note that we have Sydney (Pyke) and Saints (Longer) the next two weeks so they are reasonable matchups for Ayce. The following three weeks however are Freo (Sandilands), Mebourne (Jamar) and GWS (Mumford) so Minson is a big chance to be brought back for these games.

[Webby]

Don't forget that Jacobs is a gun and may well have schooled Will yesterday, too.

Also, Sandilands schools everyone. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Hopefully Tom Campbell can continue his post-surgery development and also push up for a go. These guys need a run. Although we're currently buzzing with a sugar-rush, we're still playing the long game.

[LostDoggy]

Don't forget that Jacobs is a gun and may well have schooled Will yesterday, too.

Also, Sandilands schools everyone. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Hopefully Tom Campbell can continue his post-surgery development and also push up for a go. These guys need a run. Although we're currently buzzing with a sugar-rush, we're still playing the long game.

Maybe Ayce can play the mental game and get under Sandy's skin with some medical info about the life expectancy of men over 210cm tall.

[Remi Moses]

Where are you drawing that comparison from? Thats more than a bit creative.

He gets his tyres pumped up on here by a few.

[Remi Moses]

Don't forget that Jacobs is a gun and may well have schooled Will yesterday, too.

Also, Sandilands schools everyone. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Hopefully Tom Campbell can continue his post-surgery development and also push up for a go. These guys need a run. Although we're currently buzzing with a sugar-rush, we're still playing the long game.
Right on with that assessment .

[GVGjr]

He gets his tyres pumped up on here by a few.

To the Polly Farmer level? I'd like to see what was said that gives you that impression.
Pumping up the bridgstones perhaps but no where near the Polly Farmer level.

[jeemak]

Having just watched the game I thought Cordy was the more effective ruck across the ground in the first quarter.

Jacobs dominated him in the ruck contests through sheer strength, and for the rest of the game had greater impact around the ground.

What I did note is that Ayce seemed to get his hands on the ball or even the contest as the game went on in patches, and it got me thinking that as much as a player can watch videos of how an opponent plays, nothing compares to actually playing on them in trying to figure out how to beat them.

I'm not sure how many times Ayce has come up against Jacobs for any sustained period of time, but it looked to me as if he was working through a learning experience as much as anything else and he'll be better against him next time - hopefully.

What Ayce can control is his work around the ground away from ruck contests. Clearly in some instances he positioned himself well on the flanks and in defence to either stop a kick coming in and hurting us, or providing a hands option coming out of that area however, he needs to be more involved throughout the course of the game.

In my view he took a small step forward, but needs to do more around the ground if he's not a ruck that will immediately influence the game in ruck contests.

[Sedat]

Cordy was beaten yesterday but he showed a very pleasing hunger to harass and apply defensive pressure when it was his turn to go. Showed more than I thought he was capable of producing.

[Go_Dogs]

I watched the replay last night, and there were a few efforts deep in Adelaide's back half very early that stood out as being better than I saw live from the opposite side wing.

Also noticed that it was Cordy's wrist that connected with Laird's head, not sure if that had an impact on his ability to compete at the end.

I'd say it was a pass mark, but no idea what the coach and MC will think.

[F'scary]

I watched the game again last night and Cordy's game was similar to Minson's except it didn't have any oomph factor, there was significantly less effectiveness at the stoppages and a lot less stamina displayed. Other than those things, he matched Minson's average output per game this season.

[Ghost Dog]

Cordy was beaten yesterday but he showed a very pleasing hunger to harass and apply defensive pressure when it was his turn to go. Showed more than I thought he was capable of producing.

Who picked him for the first goal of the match? Wow, great aggression. Minno is stronger in the packs, but Ayce is better around the ground, so it's a different approach, not necessarily better.

[Mantis]

Who picked him for the first goal of the match? Wow, great aggression. Minno is stronger in the packs, but Ayce is better around the ground, so it's a different approach, not necessarily better.

Based on what?

Ayce only took 2 marks on the weekend which shows that he didn't find space as well as a more mobile player should.

[1eyedog]

Based on what?

Ayce only took 2 marks on the weekend which shows that he didn't find space as well as a more mobile player should.

Ayce is simply more mobile and that's about it atm.

[jeemak]

How long does everyone believe it should take for a player to learn the craft of first ruck at AFL level?

This is just out of curiosity. Does it take more than two games?

[Ghost Dog]

Based on what?

Ayce only took 2 marks on the weekend which shows that he didn't find space as well as a more mobile player should.

I should have qualified it. Based on the fact he is younger, can run faster and is more mobile. But this doesn't mean he can apply it during a game and it remains to be seen.

[Bulldog4life]

Who picked him for the first goal of the match? Wow, great aggression. Minno is stronger in the packs, but Ayce is better around the ground, so it's a different approach, not necessarily better.

I loved that first goal. Just ripped it out of one of the Crows player's hands. Great start.

[Mofra]

What Ayce can control is his work around the ground away from ruck contests. Clearly in some instances he positioned himself well on the flanks and in defence to either stop a kick coming in and hurting us, or providing a hands option coming out of that area however, he needs to be more involved throughout the course of the game.
I'm wondering if that is a reason he is in the side over Will - from lvl 2 at Etihad Cordy seemed to get to the right spots in our zone and Minson clearly plays a simpler bash & crash gamestyle.

There are times when Bevo will pick guys who aren't as good as the guys they replace simply because they are better for the gameplan (e.g. I rate Hunter ahead of Honeychurch but Honey's forward pressure has a huge impact on our gamestyle).

[Ghost Dog]

Go to the 360 review of our game V swans, and check out this Ayce Cordy man-flattening, hip and shoulder.
It's a thing of beauty. ( 42 seconds )

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2015-05-05/afl360-reviews-dogs-win

[KT31]

Go to the 360 review of our game V swans, and check out this Ayce Cordy man-flattening, hip and shoulder.
It's a thing of beauty. ( 42 seconds )

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2015-05-05/afl360-reviews-dogs-win

Unfortunately the umpire (rightly or wrongly) paid a 50 against him and it cost us a goal.

[Ghost Dog]

Unfortunately the umpire (rightly or wrongly) paid a 50 against him and it cost us a goal.

True, but at least he's going in hard, even if he needs to be a second or so earlier :)

[Scraggers]

Go to the 360 review of our game V swans, and check out this Ayce Cordy man-flattening, hip and shoulder.
It's a thing of beauty. ( 42 seconds )

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2015-05-05/afl360-reviews-dogs-win


Am I missing something? THe man-flattening at 42 seconds in the clip is Roughead isn't it?

[KT31]

Am I missing something? THe man-flattening at 42 seconds in the clip is Roughead isn't it?

Correct, GD has been auto corrected by spell check and it came up with Ayce Cordy.;)

[LostDoggy]

It amazes me people still think Cordy is a good bet. He hasnt shown anything this year that makes me think he has improved, in fact i think he was a better player when we first recruited him

[1eyedog]

Am I missing something? THe man-flattening at 42 seconds in the clip is Roughead isn't it?

Ayce would break in half if he tried to do that.

[Maddog37]

It amazes me people still think Cordy is a good bet. He hasnt shown anything this year that makes me think he has improved, in fact i think he was a better player when we first recruited him

I don't think he is a good bet but he might be a roughie that comes good after being gelded.

[Ghost Dog]

Am I missing something? THe man-flattening at 42 seconds in the clip is Roughead isn't it?

LOL, my bad!!

[The bulldog tragician]

In fact, isn't that the issue with Ayce? It is impossible to imagine him showing the physical presence that Roughy did in that passage of play, even though we conceded a (dodgy) 50 in the process.

[Ghost Dog]

In fact, isn't that the issue with Ayce? It is impossible to imagine him showing the physical presence that Roughy did in that passage of play, even though we conceded a (dodgy) 50 in the process.

Not sure, but I did like the way he grabbed the ball out of the pack and scored the first goal the week before. Showed a bit of aggression. Luke said in the presser he was happy with his defensive effort so far.

[Greystache]

All jokes aside if Cordy is getting games because he's a slightly more mobile option and can help out defensively wouldn't we be just as well off playing Kobe Stevens in the ruck?

He's far more mobile than any of the other rucks, can defend, is physically stronger than Ayce, and would be just a capable of getting the occasional hit out. Surely he would add even more versatility around the ground?

[Mofra]

All jokes aside if Cordy is getting games because he's a slightly more mobile option and can help out defensively wouldn't we be just as well off playing Kobe Stevens in the ruck?
The last 189cm ruckman I can think of was that St Kilda part time ruckman who spent most of his time in defence. That was only a few years ago.

Cordy seems to be in the side for his ability to get to the right spot in the defensive zone, not much else. Surely we can trade in a ruckman who would be an immediate upgrade who can do the same thing but also manage the occasional hitout to advantage?

[1eyedog]

The last 189cm ruckman I can think of was that St Kilda part time ruckman who spent most of his time in defence. That was only a few years ago.

Cordy seems to be in the side for his ability to get to the right spot in the defensive zone, not much else. Surely we can trade in a ruckman who would be an immediate upgrade who can do the same thing but also manage the occasional hitout to advantage?

Blake.

The problem with the early goal Ayce kicked against Adelaide was that it was opportunist. Ayce should have been up spoiling Jacobs who very nearly took the mark. For a mobile guy who's 200+cm he's shocking in the air and when you couple that with shocking in the ruck you have a liability on the field.

[Greystache]

The last 189cm ruckman I can think of was that St Kilda part time ruckman who spent most of his time in defence. That was only a few years ago.

Cordy seems to be in the side for his ability to get to the right spot in the defensive zone, not much else. Surely we can trade in a ruckman who would be an immediate upgrade who can do the same thing but also manage the occasional hitout to advantage?

That's my pooint, Ayce is 204cm but he may as well be 144cm, he doesn't play tall in any way. Stevens wouldn't get many hitouts or take contested marks, but neither does Ayce. We'd be just as well off playing 5 midfielders and having the strongest bodied of them contest the hitout, we wouldn't do any worse than conceding 58 hitouts while taking 0 marks and laying 0 tackles. If the coach doesn't rate ruck work then we should look to gain somewhere else, rather than play someone who can't do either.

[1eyedog]

Playing Stevens in the ruck is just silly. You could pretty much guarantee that every hit out by the opposition ruckman would go to advantage. You're discounting the number of neutral contests where the ball simply spills out of the ruck contestby having a big body competing.

If you're going to play a non-ruckman in the ruck it needs to be someone who will still create contest and the only way to do that is to play someone with a bit of height and weight. Stevens is under 85kg and well under 190cm, he's a midget against all ruckmen in the comp.

It would have to be a Redpath / Roberts type.

[Greystache]

Playing Stevens in the ruck is just silly. You could pretty much guarantee that every hit out by the opposition ruckman would go to advantage. You're discounting the number of neutral contests where the ball simply spills out of the ruck contestby having a big body competing.

If you're going to play a non-ruckman in the ruck it needs to be someone who will still create contest and the only way to do that is to play someone with a bit of height and weight. Stevens is under 85kg and well under 190cm, he's a midget against all ruckmen in the comp.

It would have to be a Redpath / Roberts type.

That's exactly what happened, 58 hitouts, 20 to advantage, and the first 8 centre clearances before Roughead stepped in. A ruckman who doesn't even have an opponent would struggle to hit the ball to advantage more than 20 times a game, it's just not a precise science.

The point I'm making is don't play someone who can't do a job just because they're tall enough to do the job in theory. If we're conceding a particular part of the game then get an advantage somewhere else. Don't play a Cordy because he can stand in a hole and clog space while getting killed in his primary role, likewise don't play Redpath who can't ruck just because in theory he should contest better than someone shorter.

[Sedat]

That's exactly what happened, 58 hitouts, 20 to advantage, and the first 8 centre clearances before Roughead stepped in. A ruckman who doesn't even have an opponent would struggle to hit the ball to advantage more than 20 times a game, it's just not a precise science.

The point I'm making is don't play someone who can't do a job just because they're tall enough to do the job in theory. If we're conceding a particular part of the game then get an advantage somewhere else. Don't play a Cordy because he can stand in a hole and clog space while getting killed in his primary role, likewise don't play Redpath who can't ruck just because in theory he should contest better than someone shorter.
Jong had more hitouts than Ayce on Saturday...just sayin'

[1eyedog]

I agree. We should be playing Campbell who can provide a contest in the ruck and around the ground. Ayce got out of jail against Adelaide because we set up to shark Jacobs at centre bounces, and it worked. He got out of jail against Pyke because more often than not mids fumbled the ball from hit outs due to the conditions.

Sooner or later Cordy is going to get mauled and it will cost us a game. A really damaging ruckman will take him forward at every opportunity and exploit his weaknesses. His position in the side is completely unsustainable.

[Ghost Dog]

Ayce could do with a few more kg. He has a lot of developing to do as a person and physically.

[Bulldog Joe]

I agree. We should be playing Campbell who can provide a contest in the ruck and around the ground. Ayce got out of jail against Adelaide because we set up to shark Jacobs at centre bounces, and it worked. He got out of jail against Pyke because more often than not mids fumbled the ball from hit outs due to the conditions.

Sooner or later Cordy is going to get mauled and it will cost us a game. A really damaging ruckman will take him forward at every opportunity and exploit his weaknesses. His position in the side is completely unsustainable.

I think Bevo likes it when ruckman take Ayce forward as this is where he is actually less vulnerable.

He has actually done quite well defensively and I can't recall his opponent taking a forward 50 mark in the 3 games he has played.

[F'scary]

The last 189cm ruckman I can think of was that St Kilda part time ruckman who spent most of his time in defence. That was only a few years ago.

...

Jason Blake 189cm 91kg (Footywire) retired after 2013, 219 games, plenty of finals appearances. Very useful player and unusual in that his natural style was that of a ruckman. Had a good leap which made up for some of those centimetres. If we had someone like him on our list at the moment, I'd play him ahead of Ace any day.

[Mofra]

Jason Blake 189cm 91kg (Footywire) retired after 2013, 219 games, plenty of finals appearances. Very useful player and unusual in that his natural style was that of a ruckman. Had a good leap which made up for some of those centimetres. If we had someone like him on our list at the moment, I'd play him ahead of Ace any day.
Ah thanks, that's the guy I was thinking of.
Limited footballer but he had the heart of a lion. You could put him in front of a train and he'd take the hit.

[F'scary]

Ah thanks, that's the guy I was thinking of.
Limited footballer but he had the heart of a lion. You could put him in front of a train and he'd take the hit.

He also had natural aptitude for playing in the ruck. A strange one.

[Happy Days]

I think (?) Greystache is trying to point out that Cordy in the ruck is not working, rather than actually suggesting we play Stevens in the ruck.

Remember last week how Jacobs had more hitouts to advantage at half time than Cordy had in total. Well this week, Pyke had more hitouts to advantage in the first quarter than Cordy had for the entire game. Granted, Cordy only played 2 & 1/2 quarters, but that's because he was so ineffective.

We can't keep rope-a-dope-ing with our backline (which remember, has only been awesome for 5 [4] games now and is missing Dale Morris) and conceding the midfield. It's a looming disaster.

I went to the VFL on the weekend and Campbell was really good! His work inside the opposition's defensive 50 was particularly impressive. He simply has to come in for Cordy. Has to.

[Ghost Dog]

I think (?) Greystache is trying to point out that Cordy in the ruck is not working, rather than actually suggesting we play Stevens in the ruck.

Remember last week how Jacobs had more hitouts to advantage at half time than Cordy had in total. Well this week, Pyke had more hitouts to advantage in the first quarter than Cordy had for the entire game. Granted, Cordy only played 2 & 1/2 quarters, but that's because he was so ineffective.

We can't keep rope-a-dope-ing with our backline (which remember, has only been awesome for 5 [4] games now and is missing Dale Morris) and conceding the midfield. It's a looming disaster.

I went to the VFL on the weekend and Campbell was really good! His work inside the opposition's defensive 50 was particularly impressive. He simply has to come in for Cordy. Has to.

If it's not working, he will be swapped. Is it possible Luke places a higher priority on other aspects of the game and is happy to lose the hit out? The importance of the hit out stat is debated.

[1eyedog]

I think Bevo likes it when ruckman take Ayce forward as this is where he is actually less vulnerable.

He has actually done quite well defensively and I can't recall his opponent taking a forward 50 mark in the 3 games he has played.

McEvoy did. Anyway, McEvoy was coming from a long way back, no one marked the ball inside F50 against Sydney and Jacobs doesn't really hurt you forward of 50 and hasn't kicked a goal this year. Wait until he's up against a Ryder, Nic Nat or Martin, guys who actually hit the scoreboard, take contested marks or are regularly involved in goal assists. I'm not sure how much Bevo will like any one of these players dragging Ayce forward.

Cordy is the worse ruckman in the comp by a fair way.

[jeemak]

Blake.

The problem with the early goal Ayce kicked against Adelaide was that it was opportunist. Ayce should have been up spoiling Jacobs who very nearly took the mark. For a mobile guy who's 200+cm he's shocking in the air and when you couple that with shocking in the ruck you have a liability on the field.

Yes it was opportunistic, and yes he failed to spoil him in any way other than stopping him from taking the mark, then stealing the ball and kicking a quick goal. It was an excellent piece of work.

Ayce in my view doesn't have an issue with spoiling or being taken forward by his opponent. It's his sheer lack of strength in ruck contests that holds him back. He has no strength through his legs, or stability and it results in him being pushed aside too easily.

I thought he was clearly interfered with by Pyke a number of times on Saturday (in a way Minson has continually been punished for throughout his career), but we can't have a ruck that relies on free kicks in ruck contests to be competitive, because they won't come to him that often.

Until Ayce gets stronger his solid and workable attributes will be of extremely limited value to us, and we need to see if Campbell can take his game to the next level and compete sooner rather than later, so we can set a strategy for the coming years.

[Axe Man]

We did have an undersized ruckman at one time similar to Jason Blake in Wayde Skipper. Perhaps we can re-draft him?:)

[soupman]

Cordy seems to be in the side for his ability to get to the right spot in the defensive zone, not much else. Surely we can trade in a ruckman who would be an immediate upgrade who can do the same thing but also manage the occasional hitout to advantage?

Well who do we target?

The issue atm for us is that Minson is looking increasingly outdated by Beveridges gameplan, Cordy is still not up to AFL standard and Campbell, while promising, has never played a particularly good game in the ruck at AFL level and is more the lumbering type than the mobile ruckman Beveridge seems to like.

Options already in the system: you could look at
Kreuzer, free agent and can play forward, but often injured
Warnock, like a crap Jacobs, should be fairly cheap
Witts, maybe a bit lumbering in the Minson mould
Vardy, injury prone but can pinch hit forward
Lycett, can kick goals but signed a 4 year deal last year
Sinclair, seems fairly agile and will be behind NicNat so potentially vulnerable
Nankervis, yet to debut but has been close at a strong club (Sydney)
Derickx, has played a bit for Sydney and whilst probably shit could be viable
Vickery, fits the mould of tall forward/ruck and while he is a dickhead and a bit crap now his value won't get much lower and Richmond have done the hard yards already
Griffiths, another forward/ruck, although would be hard to pry loose
Reddan, injury plagued but good age and not going to get games ahead of Lobbe.
Currie, potential super eker but can mark and is potentially ok
Daw, the crap NicNat but seems to have stgnated and would offer more athletically than most other options
Fitzpatrick, forward ruck who looked alright a while ago then dissapeared.
Gorringe, wanted out last season (albeit for SA) and can play
Clarke, will probably take Sandilands spot but could be worth pursuing, can play forward
Hannath, developing as a key forward I think Freo rate him highly but could be poachable

Certainly some spuds in there, but most are young enough to be around for a while and some ruckmen tend to emerge late so a few to consider. Sinclair and Fitzpatrick probably my favourites having seen very little of them

[1eyedog]

Well who do we target?

The issue atm for us is that Minson is looking increasingly outdated by Beveridges gameplan, Cordy is still not up to AFL standard and Campbell, while promising, has never played a particularly good game in the ruck at AFL level and is more the lumbering type than the mobile ruckman Beveridge seems to like.

Options already in the system: you could look at
Kreuzer, free agent and can play forward, but often injured
Warnock, like a crap Jacobs, should be fairly cheap
Witts, maybe a bit lumbering in the Minson mould
Vardy, injury prone but can pinch hit forward
Lycett, can kick goals but signed a 4 year deal last year
Sinclair, seems fairly agile and will be behind NicNat so potentially vulnerable
Nankervis, yet to debut but has been close at a strong club (Sydney)
Derickx, has played a bit for Sydney and whilst probably shit could be viable
Vickery, fits the mould of tall forward/ruck and while he is a dickhead and a bit crap now his value won't get much lower and Richmond have done the hard yards already
Griffiths, another forward/ruck, although would be hard to pry loose
Reddan, injury plagued but good age and not going to get games ahead of Lobbe.
Currie, potential super eker but can mark and is potentially ok
Daw, the crap NicNat but seems to have stgnated and would offer more athletically than most other options
Fitzpatrick, forward ruck who looked alright a while ago then dissapeared.
Gorringe, wanted out last season (albeit for SA) and can play
Clarke, will probably take Sandilands spot but could be worth pursuing, can play forward
Hannath, developing as a key forward I think Freo rate him highly but could be poachable

Certainly some spuds in there, but most are young enough to be around for a while and some ruckmen tend to emerge late so a few to consider. Sinclair and Fitzpatrick probably my favourites having seen very little of them

Sedat posted up an article where the author suggested Leuenberger was on the chopping block. Former top 5 draft pick and had a few very good years a few years back and is in the right age bracket (26). Worth exploring.

[F'scary]

We did have an undersized ruckman at one time similar to Jason Blake in Wayde Skipper. Perhaps we can re-draft him?:)

I actually rated him and was disappointed when he was delisted. It's too late now, he's 32. He got a go at Hawthorn via the rookie draft (2009) and in fact played 15 games for them in 2010. It seemed to me that he was one of those unfortunate players who always got dropped at the first opportunity while others get carried much longer...

[F'scary]

Great post soupaman, really enjoyed that listing and plenty of food for thought.

[LostDoggy]

In theruck contests Ayce doesnt watch the ball when its thrown up he watches the other ruckman, which is telling me he is scared of making body contact.

[Mofra]

Sedat posted up an article where the author suggested Leuenberger was on the chopping block. Former top 5 draft pick and had a few very good years a few years back and is in the right age bracket (26). Worth exploring.
Against: Injury prone
For: He's free and likely to leave with a decent offer as Brisbane isn't a happy place to be right now it seems.

[Cyberdoggie]

In theruck contests Ayce doesnt watch the ball when its thrown up he watches the other ruckman, which is telling me he is scared of making body contact.

I'm not sure he's scared as such perhaps more conscious that if he does make body contact he is going to get pushed out of the contest because he simply doesn't have the weight or strength to compete. The slightest bump and he gets bent over, by the time he gets upright again it's too late. Same used to happen up forward. If your not going to compete in the body on body contests then you need to outrun your opponents and be a mobile option, Cordy doesn't have this ability either.

[bornadog]

Ayce needs another good stint in the VFL and then if his form is up to it he can get another go in the second half of the year.

[LostDoggy]

I really hope Tom Canpbell is given the same opportunity Ayce haas been gifted. Give him a month in the seniors and really see what we have with him,

[Scraggers]

I really hope Tom Canpbell is given the same opportunity Ayce haas been gifted. Give him a month in the seniors and really see what we have with him,

Agreed ... I'm a Campbell fan

[G-Mo77]

I really hope Tom Canpbell is given the same opportunity Ayce haas been gifted. Give him a month in the seniors and really see what we have with him,

Why has it been gifted? He played well enough to earn his spot and Campbell was coming back from an injury. How is that a gift?

I'm still high on Campbell as well and think he'll be our #1 ruck beyond 2015.

[LostDoggy]

Agreed ... I'm a Campbell fan

Me three.
What I also like about The Soup is that he can become a dangerous target up forward for us too if needed.

[Scraggers]

Me three.
What I also like about The Soup is that he can become a dangerous target up forward for us too if needed.

Precisely ... And he can clunk a mark

[Scraggers]

He gets another run against the Saints ... I trust Bevo, but I don't understand this line of thinking. Surely Campbell and Minson are ahead of Ayce ??

[bulldogtragic]

He gets another run against the Saints ... I trust Bevo, but I don't understand this line of thinking. Surely Campbell and Minson are ahead of Ayce ??

Maybe he was told he had a month to prove himself... Dunno, it's not about form obviously.

[chef]

Maybe he fits the structure better.

[comrade]

Just wait, there's a break out game about to erupt :D

[bornadog]

Just wait, there's a break out game about to erupt :D

We would all love to see that.

[GVGjr]

I really hope Tom Canpbell is given the same opportunity Ayce haas been gifted. Give him a month in the seniors and really see what we have with him,

Minson was a lot better than Campbell last week. I don't think Campbell is quite ready yet. If it's not Cordy then it should be Minson or Roughead

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Maybe he fits the structure better.

It can't be that given he's the least versatile of our rucks - worse than Minson resting forward.

I think it's a case of Bevo throwing the reigns to Cordy to see if he can hold a spot on the list next season - no more excuses - but Cordy should consider himself extremely lucky because he doesn't even deserve that opportunity in the first place.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Let's just say, hypothetically, Ayce does his knee on Saturday and is out for a year....... aside from natural sympathy and empathy...................does anyone fear for our season?

[bulldogtragic]

Let's just say, hypothetically, Ayce does his knee on Saturday and is out for a year....... aside from natural sympathy and empathy...................does anyone fear for our season?

17 AFL clubs would fear for our season... :)

[Greystache]

17 AFL clubs would fear for THEIR season... :)

EFA. You're doing it wrong D man :D

[Twodogs]

Yeah. Wrong.

[hujsh]

Just wait, there's a break out game about to erupt :D

Well I wrote him off last week so it must be a good chance

[Greystache]

Just wait, there's a break out game about to erupt :D

Sounds like another previous first round draft pick. The wait continues :D

[LostDoggy]

Minson was a lot better than Campbell last week. I don't think Campbell is quite ready yet. If it's not Cordy then it should be Minson or RougheadCordy wasnt ready yet either.

[Ghost Dog]

Let's just say, hypothetically, Ayce does his knee on Saturday and is out for a year....... aside from natural sympathy and empathy...................does anyone fear for our season?

Looking for the 'Don't Like' button on this one Douggy. Hmm, can't find.
Here's hoping Ayce puts his knee right in the back of a Collingwood full back and takes a screamer.
If Luke says he's happy with his effort, that's a pretty good endorsement.

He is young, and will develop mentally, and physically. Stephen King will hopefully show him the right way to go about it. Should get Luke Darcy down there as well.

[Mofra]

He is young, and will develop mentally, and physically. Stephen King will hopefully show him the right way to go about it. Should get Luke Darcy down there as well.
Young? I'm, pretty sure he is in the oldest dozen players on our list, or very close to it.

[1eyedog]

Definitely young for a ruckman.

[Greystache]

Definitely young for a ruckman.

He'll be playing on a guy 4 years younger than him tomorrow.

[LostDoggy]

Looking for the 'Don't Like' button on this one Douggy. Hmm, can't find.
Here's hoping Ayce puts his knee right in the back of a Collingwood full back and takes a screamer.
If Luke says he's happy with his effort, that's a pretty good endorsement.

He is young, and will develop mentally, and physically. Stephen King will hopefully show him the right way to go about it. Should get Luke Darcy down there as well.if he hasnt developed mentally or physically yet, i doubt he will by the time his career is over

[1eyedog]

He'll be playing on a guy 4 years younger than him tomorrow.

He's still young for a ruckman.

[comrade]

Just wait, there's a break out game about to erupt :D

Easily his best game for the year and played his designated role well.

Not quite a break out game, but a step in the right direction surely?

[Ghost Dog]

if he hasnt developed mentally or physically yet, i doubt he will by the time his career is over

Well, let's just wait and see. A little barracking for the kid couldn't hurt.

[Bulldog4life]

I was impressed with Cord's game. The best I have seen.

[bulldogtragic]

I was impressed with Cord's game. The best I have seen.

Coming off an horrifically low base. But I'm with you.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He was competitive around the ground but he essentially got smashed in the ruck by a couple of kids.

[Sedat]

I don't have faith that he'll make it as our first ruck, but we really need to piss or get off the pot with regard to Cordy's place on the list. Happy to find out once and for all if he can fulfil this role for us medium to long term, or cut him from the list.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't have faith that he'll make it as our first ruck, but we really need to piss of get off the pot with regard to Cordy's place on the list. Happy to find out once and for all if he can fulfil this role for us medium to long term, or cut him from the list.

This exactly.

[stefoid]

Why cant he get his hand to the ball at ruck contests, particularly centre bounces now that they have made it a jumping contest?

Longer got 37 hitouts 201cm, 98 kilos, 21yo
Cordy got 16 hitouts 204cm, 99 kilos, 24yo

So Bev doesnt rate ruckwork, preferring a Stynes / Cox style of tall midfielder who can cover a lot of ground and use the ball well. Thats fine (Not that Ayce is anywhere near that).

But surely Ayce has to be able to break even in the ruck by making the tapout a random outcome?

[comrade]

Why cant he get his hand to the ball at ruck contests, particularly centre bounces now that they have made it a jumping contest?

Longer got 37 hitouts 201cm, 98 kilos, 21yo
Cordy got 16 hitouts 204cm, 99 kilos, 24yo

So Bev doesnt rate ruckwork, preferring a Stynes / Cox style of tall midfielder who can cover a lot of ground and use the ball well. Thats fine (Not that Ayce is anywhere near that).

But surely Ayce has to be able to break even in the ruck by making the tapout a random outcome?

How many more clearances did the Saints win based on their ruck 'dominance'?

[Mofra]

I thought Ayce was our best player in the final quarter - but most Bulldogs were horrible.
Showed signs so good on him, I remain unconvinced.

[bornadog]

How many more clearances did the Saints win based on their ruck 'dominance'?

Effective hitouts: Longer 13, Cordy 3

[Mantis]

How many more clearances did the Saints win based on their ruck 'dominance'?

They won a shitload in the 2nd half based on our inability to stand on the defensive side of their opponents.. The fact that our rucks couldn't neutralize the hit-outs didn't help.

[jeemak]

They won a shitload in the 2nd half based on our inability to stand on the defensive side of their opponents.. The fact that our rucks couldn't neutralize the hit-outs didn't help.

That was painful to watch.

[Greystache]

They won a shitload in the 2nd half based on our inability to stand on the defensive side of their opponents.. The fact that our rucks couldn't neutralize the hit-outs didn't help.

I mentioned on the day we can't concede the hit out at every centre clearance AND not tag the most damaging midfielder if he's on fire. Twice in 4 weeks we've conceded 45 disposals to an opposition mid and a shitload of centre clearances. If we aren't going to play a ruckman that's fine, but we have to compensate somewhere else in the centre.

[Maddog37]

Improved performance on the weekend and he is at least trending upwards. Lots of work to be done still before he is considered a lock best 22 player but there is a glimmer of hope where I thought there was none.

[bornadog]

I mentioned on the day we can't concede the hit out at every centre clearance AND not tag the most damaging midfielder if he's on fire. Twice in 4 weeks we've conceded 45 disposals to an opposition mid and a shitload of centre clearances. If we aren't going to play a ruckman that's fine, but we have to compensate somewhere else in the centre.

Stas have been thrown out the door this year.

We won Centre Clearances, Clearances, Contested poss, Tackles, Stoppages, and we had 15 more inside 50's. Our problem in the second half was we couldn't hit the score board, the most important stat of all.

[G-Mo77]

Stas have been thrown out the door this year.

We won Centre Clearances, Clearances, Contested poss, Tackles, Stoppages, and we had 15 more inside 50's. Our problem in the second half was we couldn't hit the score board, the most important stat of all.

The inside 50's mounted up in the first half. The difference was huge at half time and rightly so but still we probably still matched them after half time if not beat them in that area. The entries were rushed and poor, we didn't really have much chance to score off those and because of the lack of pressure the repeat entries did not occur which has been one of our strengths.

[bornadog]

The inside 50's mounted up in the first half. The difference was huge at half time and rightly so but still we probably still matched them after half time if not beat them in that area. The entries were rushed and poor, we didn't really have much chance to score off those and because of the lack of pressure the repeat entries did not occur which has been one of our strengths.

Yes you are right. We didn't give the forwards much chance at all.

[Maddog37]

Koby was hurt, Clay was gone and Hunter was waste of space. I have serious doubts on Hunter for the short term.

[Remi Moses]

Hunter has to decide whether he wants the social life or become dedicated .
I'm sure a few of us on here have heard stories of Lachy .

[bornadog]

Hunter has to decide whether he wants the social life or become dedicated .
I'm sure a few of us on here have heard stories of Lachy .

I haven't.

[Happy Days]

Hunter has to decide whether he wants the social life or become dedicated .
I'm sure a few of us on here have heard stories of Lachy .

This is very Big Footy-ish.

[josie]

I was so happy to see Ayce clunk some important marks and kick that goal in the 4th qtr. He is now reaching above his shoulders to take marks and given his height I'm looking forward to him taking many more.

I just hope he can be competitive with tap outs if he is the main ruck against Freo.

Also hope the conditioning coaches can put more bulk onto Ayce, without him losing his mobility.

There is a beaut Sophia Loren, Peter Sellers song "Eat your macaroni Joe" that I often think of when I see Ayce - here is link so you too can be afflicted by this ear worm (albeit a pleasant one)....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGFpVN2xwXU

[Ghost Dog]

Hunter has to decide whether he wants the social life or become dedicated .
I'm sure a few of us on here have heard stories of Lachy .

Bevo will be having no funny business. Trust him to keep all the boys in line.

[1eyedog]

What stories? I've only heard about the recent betting scandal, as well as all the unsubstantiated innuendo around his old man. Lachy had great VFL form, made the senior team again and came on to play midfield at half time. Tough gig. He seems to be doing the right things behind the scenes.

[stefoid]

How many more clearances did the Saints win based on their ruck 'dominance'?

Who can say, but we need to cut our mids some slack - we want them to be able to compete for a loose ball, not have to tackle opposition players who have it giftwrapped for them.

Unless there is some strategy whereby Bev has realized that you get better quality clearances by forcing the opposition to turn it over than by getting first use of the ball?

[merantau]

More analysis has been devoted to Ayce Cordy on this forum than combined efforts that the Allies finest expended when endeavoring to crack the Enigma Code. It's not that difficult. When he came to the club I remember the scribes banging on about how ATHLETIC he was. But, at 204 cm your game is above your head - marks and hit outs. I don't care if he can scoop the ball off the ground like Choco Royal or, that he recorded 6.18343 secs. for the Agility Test at Boot Camp. If he can't hit the ball to advantage, or at least stop the other bloke from doing it; if he can't take a contested mark or run all day and be a factor in every contest he gets to then he is not going to make it. I would love Ayce to make it but, the sand in the hour-glass is continuing its inexorable passage from the upper chamber to the lower. Get out there and make a name for yourself Ayce, or dish up the same old, same old which will at least put us out of our misery. I console myself with the thought that in someplace, somewhere there's a great big lump of a young bloke whose going to land on our doorstep and make an immediate impact a la John Schuitz or Gary Dempsey. I cling to my hopes like a drowning man, waiting for a Two Metre Messiah to take us to the Promised Land.

[KT31]

To me it is pretty simple, if a ruck mans job is to tap it to our advantage and to nullify the oppositions ruckman best we find one next season that can do the job or our flag may be another 60 years away.

[jeemak]

To me it is pretty simple, if a ruck mans job is to tap it to our advantage and to nullify the oppositions ruckman best we find one next season that can do the job or our flag may be another 60 years away.

I think the suggestion might be it's not a ruckman's only job these days.

There were some damning stats surrounding our scores from contests in the past three or four weeks since Cordy took over in a Herald Sun article (today's edition). I think we've gone from plus 9pts to minus 20pts, though I'm not sure how much that has to do with tap outs to advantage, being a midfielder or two down at different times, or having more work put into that area of our game from an opposition perspective.

Equally as damning from the same article was the stat that Minson in his three games took only the same amount of marks that Ayce managed last week.

[bulldogtragic]

Of the four people I really didn't like rucking today, Ayce was my prefered.

1. Ayce
2. Goodes
3. Boyd
4. Bonts.

[Bulldog4life]

Still superior around the ground than big Will. If you just want a ruckman Will is your man. If you want a follower Will isn't your man.

[bornadog]

Still superior around the ground than big Will. If you just want a ruckman Will is your man. If you want a follower Will isn't your man.
It's not just about the Middle, there are lots of stoppages. Ayce hasn't done anything much different than Will

[chef]

It's not just about the Middle, there are lots of stoppages. Ayce hasn't done anything much different than Will

He gets up and down the ground better and impacts more contests.

[G-Mo77]

It's not just about the Middle, there are lots of stoppages. Ayce hasn't done anything much different than Will

Apart from mark the ball.

I mentioned this before, Ayce is gaining confidence around the ground. That is clear to me. He's getting slaughtered at ruck contests. Could we play them both now? Will/Cordy or Campbell/Cordy?

I'm more confident in him now.

[Mantis]

Apart from mark the ball.



Ayce has taken 11 marks in 6 games this year.. They aren't great numbers.

[The bulldog tragician]

I wasn't at game (overseas) and watched from an ordinary connection. Can someone please explain why Bonts and Goodes were rucking (genuine question). Was it on field stuff ups, a deliberate tactic? I'm really baffled.

We could have won this, and even though I'm proud of our gutsy effort I hope playing Ayce isn't becoming a coaching blind spot.

[jeemak]

Ayce has taken 11 marks in 6 games this year.. They aren't great numbers.

Ten of those have been in the last two weeks. The week before them wasn't really a game I expected much from him overhead.

I think today we probably had more than anything a reinforcement of the fact that until Ayce gets stronger through his legs and core he's always going to be a liability in ruck contests. Going up against a guy 7cm taller and 20kg heavier was always going to highlight this more so than other weeks.

[GVGjr]

Despite the fact that he us being used in a very different manner, when clearly there are alternatives, it must bode well for him earning another contract?