List Management 2015

[Templeton31]

If Suckling does sign on does that mean J Grant out? If so who would we prefer - Grant or Suckling?

[chef]

Suckling.

[whythelongface]

If Suckling does sign on does that mean J Grant out? If so who would we prefer - Grant or Suckling?

As much as I am a fan of Grant I would much prefer Suckling. Can't beat experience and being a two time premiership player increases his value as he understands what it takes, as a player, to reach the pinnacle of success. This can only help our team.

[Greystache]

Suckling easily. He's not a great player but he's a decent AFL player.

[bornadog]

Matthew Suckling has met with the Bulldogs and is set to accept a three-year deal as early as today when free agency begins. - The Age

[1eyedog]

Matthew Suckling has met with the Bulldogs and is set to accept a three-year deal as early as today when free agency begins. - The Age

Geez this bloke could end up a 6 time premiership player!

[bornadog]

Geez this bloke could end up a 6 time premiership player!

I dream of that day.

[1eyedog]

I dream of that day.

Yep we all do BAD.

[ratsmac]

Geez this bloke could end up a 6 time premiership player!

He could be our very own Martin Pike. Not an overly great player with multiple premiership medals at different clubs.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I dream of that day.

Well all do BAD - daily?

[Bulldog Revolution]

Matthew Suckling has met with the Bulldogs and is set to accept a three-year deal as early as today when free agency begins. - The Age

Yup seems a no brainer to me for Suckling

Hawthorn unsure they can afford to keep him under their cap and 3 year offer on the table from us, a team on the rise, with a coach he knows, likes and trusts.

Its actually the best move for Suckling the footballer too, and will challenge him to become an on field leader

[KT31]

Suckling for me as well, the fact his inclusion may help Murph go around another year and his finals experiance are a big plus.

[1eyedog]

Suckling is in the bottom 10% for disposal efficiency. When he gets it right it's very good but when he doesn't it's ugly. Also, he can't defend, seems to struggle with structure and can't hold his line. Oh wait, he can kick...most of the time. Not convinced.

[The Underdog]

I'd also take Suckling over Grant.
Do I dare ask, could he be our new Nathan Eagleton (in a good way) ?

[KT31]

I'd also take Suckling over Grant.
Do I dare ask, could he be our new Nathan Eagleton (in a good way) ?
I thought he would fit and play a similar role to the Eagle as well.

[bornadog]

I'd also take Suckling over Grant.
Do I dare ask, could he be our new Nathan Eagleton (in a good way) ?

I would take both.

[kruder]

I'm happy with Suckling as long as McCartney and Dalrymple drove the decision and it was Bev's relationship with him that got it over the line. I'm hoping its not the other way around.

[Mantis]

I'd also take Suckling over Grant.
Do I dare ask, could he be our new Nathan Eagleton (in a good way) ?

There was something good about Eagleton? 😉

[1eyedog]

There was something good about Eagleton? ��

Yeah the hours of entertainment your commentary provided on WOOF.

[Happy Days]

I'm gonna miss Granty :(

I've given Suckling so much shit over his smart-arsed kicking, but now that I'm forced to cop him he, much like Crameri, is now one of my favourite players due to his propensity to always try to do the sickest possible thing he can when he gets the ball. Welcome aboard Matt you legend.

[Axe Man]

Suckling is in the bottom 10% for disposal efficiency. When he gets it right it's very good but when he doesn't it's ugly. Also, he can't defend, seems to struggle with structure and can't hold his line. Oh wait, he can kick...most of the time. Not convinced.

Where have you got that figure from? Doesn't seem correct to me. If I'm looking at the right stats his disposal efficiency for 2015 was 75.6%. Over the past 5 seasons he's been between 75% and 79%. I would have thought that was acceptable.

As a comparison Murphy was 80.3% this season, and I don't think anybody expects him to be at Bob's level.

I'm no expert on Suckling, but from what I've seen he tends to go for difficult kicks, rather than always take the easy option. Inevitably that will bring down your disposal efficiency, but it is necessary if you stand a chance of breaking down effective zones.

[The Underdog]

Where have you got that figure from? Doesn't seem correct to me. If I'm looking at the right stats his disposal efficiency for 2015 was 75.6%. Over the past 5 seasons he's been between 75% and 79%. I would have thought that was acceptable.

As a comparison Murphy was 80.3% this season, and I don't think anybody expects him to be at Bob's level.

I'm no expert on Suckling, but from what I've seen he tends to go for difficult kicks, rather than always take the easy option. Inevitably that will bring down your disposal efficiency, but it is necessary if you stand a chance of breaking down effective zones.

You pretty much don't play a running role in the seniors for the Hawks if you can't hit a target by foot

[Twodogs]

Shaun Burgoyne, too.

Yep. There are quite a few. I just named the ones that come to mind. I remember Pyke because he must be the worst footballer to play in that many premierships and I remember Fitzmaurice because he just couldnt accept that we beat Essendon in 1924 on our own merit so started to crap on about the game being fixed.

[Sedat]

There was something good about Eagleton? ��
His retirement ;)

[Ozza]

When Suckling kicked a clutch 60 metre goal in the prelim, I was thinking how we didn't have anyone like that on our list.

I could handle having Suckling on a wing or half back. He's a best 22 player in any team in the league.

3 years for anywhere between $1mil and $1.2mil would be ok by me if we are committed to him, as it is not really that much above the average.

[1eyedog]

Where have you got that figure from? Doesn't seem correct to me. If I'm looking at the right stats his disposal efficiency for 2015 was 75.6%. Over the past 5 seasons he's been between 75% and 79%. I would have thought that was acceptable.

As a comparison Murphy was 80.3% this season, and I don't think anybody expects him to be at Bob's level.

I'm no expert on Suckling, but from what I've seen he tends to go for difficult kicks, rather than always take the easy option. Inevitably that will bring down your disposal efficiency, but it is necessary if you stand a chance of breaking down effective zones.

Stevens off Twitter :)

[Twodogs]

I'm no expert on Suckling, but from what I've seen he tends to go for difficult kicks, rather than always take the easy option. Inevitably that will bring down your disposal efficiency, but it is necessary if you stand a chance of breaking down effective zones.

A bit like Matty Boyd when he was captain? He felt the responsibility to make things happen, tended to try and kick the pigskin out of the footy and sprayed his kicks.

[LostDoggy]

Bevo was Hawthorn defensive coach 2013-14 so he'll know Suckling's strengths and weaknesses better than anyone. If Bevo says he'll work for us, that'll do me.

[Happy Days]

A bit like Matty Boyd when he was captain? He felt the responsibility to make things happen, tended to try and kick the pigskin out of the footy and sprayed his kicks.

Great comparison, one I've made myself. The problem that Suckling has is that his kicks, in comparison to Boyd, are really home run shots - the result will either be fantastic or catastrophic, as opposed to Boyd's nifty!/bugger! paradigm. It looked phenomenal when it worked, but caused Clarkson to lose faith in him as an A1 distributor at various stages. But if you real it in then he pretty much loses all value as a player. Beveridge must rate him to look at him so quickly after leaving the Hawks, and he's been lights out so far, so I'm willing to see what he can bring, despite all my better senses thinking otherwise.

As an aside, any truth in that 2011-era rumour that we could have gotten him with some picks for Josh Hill?

[bornadog]

Bevo was Hawthorn defensive coach 2013-14 so he'll know Suckling's strengths and weaknesses better than anyone. If Bevo says he'll work for us, that'll do me.

He also thought to Rookie Kelly was a good idea.

[Remi Moses]

If he couldn't play in the hawthorn structure he wouldn't have been getting a game.
Upgrade on Grant, no doubt .
Big advantage being a long kick as well, and will be a decent get in a good side.
Comparisons to the eagles it are decent ( bloody auto correct, I'm not typing it in again)

[Greystache]

He also thought to Rookie Smith was a good idea.

Smith looks to be a good rookie selection, barring his late season knee injury. I don't know what Bevo had to with it though.

[soupman]

Smith looks to be a good rookie selection, barring his late season knee injury. I don't know what Bevo had to with it though.

I think he means Kelly. But I think you know that. That's all I have to say about that.

[bornadog]

I think he means Kelly. But I think you know that. That's all I have to say about that.

Yes sorry Kelly.

[LostDoggy]

Carlton have lost Henderson and have missed Carlisle after being very confident. They are desperately short of KPDs with few available.

I wonder if our 2nd and Talia for Henderson would tempt them?

Apparently Geelong have told Henderson's management they may not be able to take him, dependant on Dangerfield trade, and if he wants to be near his Geelong region family, we're next best.

[boydogs]

I wonder if our 2nd and Talia for Henderson would tempt them?

Sounds good to me

[Bulldog Revolution]

Yes sorry Kelly.

He gave him one year on the rookie list - not too big an issue

[bornadog]

He gave him one year on the rookie list - not too big an issue

never said it was an issue. Just didn't work out.

[Maddog37]

Seemed a pithy remark to me BAD.

[bornadog]

Seemed a pithy remark to me BAD.
Not at all.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If it's simply Grant out and Suckling in, it's pretty astute list management.

Just hope the $$ aren't too high, and I am still concerned heading into a new season with our only key defenders being Roberts, Hamling and Z Cordy.

[1eyedog]

If it's simply Grant out and Suckling in, it's pretty astute list management.

Just hope the $$ aren't too high, and I am still concerned heading into a new season with our only key defenders being Roberts, Hamling and Z Cordy.

I can't see Roughie playing ruck with back stocks as low and inexperienced as they are.

[Bandit]

Carlton have lost Henderson and have missed Carlisle after being very confident. They are desperately short of KPDs with few available.

I wonder if our 2nd and Talia for Henderson would tempt them?

Apparently Geelong have told Henderson's management they may not be able to take him, dependant on Dangerfield trade, and if he wants to be near his Geelong region family, we're next best.

Do you think we could do pick 11 for Henderson and something else from Carlton - perhaps a swap of picks or their third pick.

[bulldogtragic]

Do you think we could do pick 11 for Henderson and something else from Carlton - perhaps a swap of picks or their third pick.

The only way I could live with losing pick 11 to the cheats is getting pick 20 back. He's not a first round player trade for me. They're short on rucks so they can Minson for free. That's not that far off their Jaksch trade in terms of swapping picks, and Minson allows Kruzer and Casboult spend more time forward covering the loss of Hendo. They also have picks 1 and 11, Yarran trade and a chance at Silvagni junior.

[GVGjr]

Matthew Suckling has met with the Bulldogs and is set to accept a three-year deal as early as today when free agency begins. - The Age

A couple of very reliable in the know Hawthorn supporting colleagues could not believe Suckling played as often as he did for the Hawks and think this is a step backwards for us. The don't rate his ability to defend or his ability to get a hard ball and while they acknowledge he is a good kick they don't believe he gets enough of it to warrant a 3 year deal.

One of them thought JJ and Biggs were better options.

Food for thought.

[GVGjr]

If it's simply Grant out and Suckling in, it's pretty astute list management.

Just hope the $$ aren't too high, and I am still concerned heading into a new season with our only key defenders being Roberts, Hamling and Z Cordy.

Is really it much of an upgrade?

[soupman]

Is really it much of an upgrade?

It is if he gets the same possessions as Grant did but actually converts his opportunities on goal. Potentially that makes us a 1/2 goal better side a game.

[jeemak]

I think it depends on how badly he was being squeezed out and what we have to pay to get him.

If he's been under paid to claim success then he may not be coming over on ridiculous money. If he arrives with his head in bandages from having had a kitchen sink thrown at him then it's a concern.

[boydogs]

JJ v Suckling

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=8&pid1=3567&tid2=11&pid2=1816&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

Biggs v Suckling

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=8&pid1=3718&tid2=11&pid2=1816&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

[F'scary]

JJ v Suckling

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=8&pid1=3567&tid2=11&pid2=1816&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

Biggs v Suckling

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=8&pid1=3718&tid2=11&pid2=1816&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

Thank you, Boydogs - wow, there are a few points of difference but this guy is essentially is as worthy a footballer as our esteemed JJ and the Great Train Robber.

What a great upgrade for the spot vacated by Fuller! I imagine that his presence on the list will make Prudden, Dale and Webb have to work harder to get a senior game. A number of others would want to stay sharp and on their game too.

He adds experience which our list needs a bit of.

This would be a really good recruitment.

[Remi Moses]

Let's be honest every club has a whipping boy ( even hawthorn)
Think he's a better bet than what we had, but as long as we've not thrown the proverbial kitchen sink .
Having a look at his spot, you've got a kid in Webb and a couple of veterans, so it's someone in the middle

[FrediKanoute]

Stat's wise he is on par with J Grant - with Grant being a year younger. GF and finals experience is a plus and the fact that Bevo knows him is also a plus.

[jeemak]

Stat's wise he is on par with J Grant - with Grant being a year younger. GF and finals experience is a plus and the fact that Bevo knows him is also a plus.

Current season averages......

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=8&pid1=2305&tid2=11&pid2=1816&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

It will be interesting if Suckling can maintain his numbers of uncontested touches playing up the ground.

[1eyedog]

We somehow now have to fit Stevens, Libba and Suckling as genuine starting 22. Pressure on Dale, Jong, Webb, Honeychurch, Daniel and McLean. Good problem to have.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

A couple of very reliable in the know Hawthorn supporting colleagues could not believe Suckling played as often as he did for the Hawks and think this is a step backwards for us. The don't rate his ability to defend or his ability to get a hard ball and while they acknowledge he is a good kick they don't believe he gets enough of it to warrant a 3 year deal.

One of them thought JJ and Biggs were better options.

I think most would acknowledge that Suckling's weaknesses are both defending and winning his own ball, but given Clarkson and the Hawthorn coaching group had Suckling as a lock best 22 for their three peat (discounting his injury) I think it's clear he's good enough to play for any side in the league.

The key for Suckling, in any side, is defining a clear role for him. As a one-on-one half back he'd be exposed, but as part of a team defense at both Hawthorn/Dogs he can be pretty useful to cut through the opposition's press and set up genuine attacks. I can see use for him on a half forward flank who effectively becomes another winger, too.

Individually I'd take JJ ahead of him, perhaps Biggs too - but Suckling can replace Grant to add outside class. Similar to Eagleton, but he's a better kick, especially in big moments.


Is really it much of an upgrade?

Irrespective of stats and judging on pure influence, yes. Suckling can take advantage of a moment to cut opposition to shreds (ie. that goal v Freo on 3QT), Grant's probably done it once or twice in his entire career.

For me, I can see the reasoning behind it as I explained above, but on a personal note it all comes down to price - how much we're paying him, for how long. If it's effectively replacing Grant/an average wage, I can see the attraction in it.

He's not a player I'd be reaching or over paying for in the slightest though.

[soupman]

The more I think about it the more he seems like Grants direct replacement as that tall wingman link up player.

Like Grant his weaknesses are defending and winning hos won ball, however if he can continue to position himself right he'll get plenty of the footy delivered to him and unlike Grant is actually a threat with the ball in hand. Also Grant would have 1 or 2 shots a match which he all to often misses. If Suckling can convert them we are straight away a better side and all of a sudden the opposition has yet another player to worry about.

I believe sides were happy to gamble with their Grant matchup as he doesn't have a great hurt factor. Hopefully Suckling forces them to be more accountable.

[stefoid]

For some reason I think JJ will be played on a wing more this year where his pace and kicking will be far more dangerous.

I guess Suckling gives us some depth across half back. If Murph cops an injury (he is 49 yo, remember) then we have Biggs and Suckling still available.

[1eyedog]

A couple of very reliable in the know Hawthorn supporting colleagues could not believe Suckling played as often as he did for the Hawks and think this is a step backwards for us. The don't rate his ability to defend or his ability to get a hard ball and while they acknowledge he is a good kick they don't believe he gets enough of it to warrant a 3 year deal.

One of them thought JJ and Biggs were better options.

Food for thought.

Agreed. He gets it nearly 20 times so he is ok there for what he does but his ability to hit targets is over-rated IMO. HE's not strong in the air, he's not fast, he's not a contested ball winner and he seldom tackles. I suppose we will try to free him up as much as we can and break up defensive zones with his kicking ability.

He likes a goal though which is one thing I like about him.

[Twodogs]

he's a better kick, especially in big moments.

He seems to relish having a pressure shot and usually nails it from what I've seen of him.

[jeemak]

Sam Mitchell's disposal efficiency is worse than Suckling's on year on year averages. Both players go for extremely tough kicks, Mitchell uses it by hand more than Suckling and as a result is more likely to hit a target.

If Suckling can produce a disposal efficiency higher than Mitchell, even though one error for him has a greater percentage disadvantage compared to Mitchell it says to me that even if he goes for a lot of high risk kicks he's doing it pretty well.

[Remi Moses]

Agree with that, and on the vision I've seen of Suckling he tends to go the hard kick more often.
He butchers it occasionally, but for me he'd be a decent get.
We have to still get a ruck and a key back

[GVGjr]

I think most would acknowledge that Suckling's weaknesses are both defending and winning his own ball, but given Clarkson and the Hawthorn coaching group had Suckling as a lock best 22 for their three peat (discounting his injury) I think it's clear he's good enough to play for any side in the league.

The key for Suckling, in any side, is defining a clear role for him. As a one-on-one half back he'd be exposed, but as part of a team defense at both Hawthorn/Dogs he can be pretty useful to cut through the opposition's press and set up genuine attacks. I can see use for him on a half forward flank who effectively becomes another winger, too.

Individually I'd take JJ ahead of him, perhaps Biggs too - but Suckling can replace Grant to add outside class. Similar to Eagleton, but he's a better kick, especially in big moments.



Irrespective of stats and judging on pure influence, yes. Suckling can take advantage of a moment to cut opposition to shreds (ie. that goal v Freo on 3QT), Grant's probably done it once or twice in his entire career.

For me, I can see the reasoning behind it as I explained above, but on a personal note it all comes down to price - how much we're paying him, for how long. If it's effectively replacing Grant/an average wage, I can see the attraction in it.

He's not a player I'd be reaching or over paying for in the slightest though.

Many thanks for the detailed response and you've made some excellent observations. When considering bringing in Suckling I tend to look at old list management view that clubs should draft for talent and trade for gaps within the list and I'm not sure an acquisition of Suckling quite meets that.
I agree that one of the main considerations is if he is being reasonable with his financial demands. The other cost to consider is if he is a good addition to the development of the playing list? We get a 100 games playing and finals experience but does it cost us with developing our talented youngsters?
Overall I think he adds a bit of depth to the list and possibly could be seen as a longer term replacement for M.Boyd or Murphy but we do have some seriously good youngsters like, JJ, Biggs, Webb, Cordy, Prudden and Roarke Smith that he would step in front of a number of them.

That's not a bad thing but does it also address the needs of the club? With Talia a likely departure, doubts on the durability and mobility of Roberts to be a key defender, Morris a likely departure come the end of 2016 and Roughead moving into the ruck position I would have thought a key position defender would have been a vastly higher focus for us. Perhaps this is just the first step in replacing both Grant and Talia.

[bornadog]

He seems to relish having a pressure shot and usually nails it from what I've seen of him.

Not sure on set shots but his goals are 51 with 46 points over his career.

[bulldogtragic]

Not sure on set shots but his goals are 51 with 46 points over his career.

Jarrad Grant 83 goals with 58 points. If we are being consistent opinion givers, and if Jarrads biggest knock is goal kicking and Suckling has a much worse accuracy record then we are replacing Grant with a player with a worse record... Then Suckling doesn't improve us from a direct scoring perspective.

[The Underdog]

The one thing that tends to lean in favour of the deal for me is that Bevo has coached him previously, knows him well and would know exactly what role he'd like him to play. If it was a veteran from another club then I mightn't be as lenient.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I'm wondering if the Hawks are exploring offloading Anderson to try and keep suckling

[KT31]

I'm wondering if the Hawks are exploring offloading Anderson to try and keep suckling

Anderson has asked for a trade, wanting more opportunities at another club.

[jeemak]

Jarrad Grant 83 goals with 58 points. If we are being consistent opinion givers, and if Jarrads biggest knock is goal kicking and Suckling has a much worse accuracy record then we are replacing Grant with a player with a worse record... Then Suckling doesn't improve us from a direct scoring perspective.

It would be interesting to see where the shots are taken from, and the percentages of set shots.

On basic numbers I agree.

[Bulldog4life]

It would be interesting to see where the shots are taken from, and the percentages of set shots.

On basic numbers I agree.

Agree a lot of Suckling's goals kicked while he was playing in the backline and drifting down field. Grant has been forward most of his career.

[bornadog]

Agree a lot of Suckling's goals kicked while he was playing in the backline and drifting down field. Grant has been forward most of his career.

and that is why I believe we can't compare the two. As I said in another thread, I don't believe they are competing for the same spot.

[boydogs]

When considering bringing in Suckling I tend to look at old list management view that clubs should draft for talent and trade for gaps within the list and I'm not sure an acquisition of Suckling quite meets that

That absolutely needs to be our guide, but when it comes to signing free agents I'm not sure it applies. The AFL have tightened up the discounts for Father/Son and academy players but introduced a freebie with free agency.

In Suckling's case we should count ourselves lucky that our senior coach is his former line coach as that could get us over the line with him, there will be other clubs interested in signing someone for nothing as well, including those more in need of his type.

We don't want to get into a bidding war in an area we have good coverage but this could be a real bargain for us


Jarrad Grant 83 goals with 58 points. If we are being consistent opinion givers, and if Jarrads biggest knock is goal kicking and Suckling has a much worse accuracy record then we are replacing Grant with a player with a worse record... Then Suckling doesn't improve us from a direct scoring perspective.

Across their careers they have played different roles. Suckling takes a lot of running and long range shots at goal, Grant was previously a forward and more of a marking player.

In 2015 with Grant playing more up the ground, their records are Grant 11.14 and Suckling 15.15

I don't see Suckling as a replacement for Grant though. Grant's corridor role requires height, speed and quick hands and would be more suited to Wood, Hamling or Jong. Suckling would be another half back option along with Murphy, Boyd, JJ, Biggs & Webb

[lemmon]

and that is why I believe we can't compare the two. As I said in another thread, I don't believe they are competing for the same spot.

It really depends what version of Grant we're talking about. If it's the wingman we saw for most of 2015 it's pretty conceivable to think Suckling could slot in there

[jeemak]

Many thanks for the detailed response and you've made some excellent observations. When considering bringing in Suckling I tend to look at old list management view that clubs should draft for talent and trade for gaps within the list and I'm not sure an acquisition of Suckling quite meets that.
I agree that one of the main considerations is if he is being reasonable with his financial demands. The other cost to consider is if he is a good addition to the development of the playing list? We get a 100 games playing and finals experience but does it cost us with developing our talented youngsters?
Overall I think he adds a bit of depth to the list and possibly could be seen as a longer term replacement for M.Boyd or Murphy but we do have some seriously good youngsters like, JJ, Biggs, Webb, Cordy, Prudden and Roarke Smith that he would step in front of a number of them.

That's not a bad thing but does it also address the needs of the club? With Talia a likely departure, doubts on the durability and mobility of Roberts to be a key defender, Morris a likely departure come the end of 2016 and Roughead moving into the ruck position I would have thought a key position defender would have been a vastly higher focus for us. Perhaps this is just the first step in replacing both Grant and Talia.

I think he certainly meets our need in that he's a dangerous footed outside player that wants to take the game on. He's also someone that increases the talent profile on our list which is the overall priority in all cases this time of year. Yes, I appreciate he's not the exact type of player we need, but that doesn't mean we're not looking for them as well.

As long as we can manage our finances appropriately bringing him on is a priority, as is looking for a ruck or KPD. It would surprise me greatly if we did bring him in and forgot we didn't have the cap space to fill other needs.

[Greystache]

Jarrad Grant 83 goals with 58 points. If we are being consistent opinion givers, and if Jarrads biggest knock is goal kicking and Suckling has a much worse accuracy record then we are replacing Grant with a player with a worse record... Then Suckling doesn't improve us from a direct scoring perspective.

You need to compare the type of shot they're taking. Suckling is often taking a long range shot at goal, whereas Grant kicks a lot of his from the goal square after running forward of the play. Anywhere beyond 30m would be an interesting comparison that gut feel tells me Suckling would be well ahead.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

That's not a bad thing but does it also address the needs of the club? With Talia a likely departure, doubts on the durability and mobility of Roberts to be a key defender, Morris a likely departure come the end of 2016 and Roughead moving into the ruck position I would have thought a key position defender would have been a vastly higher focus for us. Perhaps this is just the first step in replacing both Grant and Talia.

This is why I am not overly excited about Suckling too. I can see where and how he adds value to our side, but it's more cream, and in reality we're still missing a quarter of a cake given our extreme deficiencies in KPD stocks.

I suppose from a more simplistic perspective, if there's no quality KPD's attainable then there's not much we can do but look to bolster the squad elsewhere. Perhaps state league defenders like Brown will come into heavy consideration if we can't attract what we need over the trade period.


You need to compare the type of shot they're taking. Suckling is often taking a long range shot at goal, whereas Grant kicks a lot of his from the goal square after running forward of the play. Anywhere beyond 30m would be an interesting comparison that gut feel tells me Suckling would be well ahead.

Yep and to be fair, Grant's high(er) disposal efficiency is supported by the fact that he only chips it 15-25m and has rare hurt factor. Suckling is the opposite - at times he goes for too much - but the hurt factor is extreme. This is why I don't like stats - they're not in the same universe when it comes to kicking a football.

[1eyedog]

It really depends what version of Grant we're talking about. If it's the wingman we saw for most of 2015 it's pretty conceivable to think Suckling could slot in there

They can play the same position but I'm not sure they could play the same roles.

Conversely how confident are we that Suckling is actually coming to the club?

[Bulldog Joe]

Yep and to be fair, Grant's high(er) disposal efficiency is supported by the fact that he only chips it 15-25m and has rare hurt factor. Suckling is the opposite - at times he goes for too much - but the hurt factor is extreme. This is why I don't like stats - they're not in the same universe when it comes to kicking a football.

While I have reservations about Suckling and his ability to defend as well as win his own ball, there is absolutely no doubt that he is light years ahead of Grant with his kicking.

The goal he kicked on 3/4 time against Freo just could NEVER have been kicked by Grant.

[1eyedog]

While I have reservations about Suckling and his ability to defend as well as win his own ball, there is absolutely no doubt that he is light years ahead of Grant with his kicking.

The goal he kicked on 3/4 time against Freo just could NEVER have been kicked by Grant.

Horses for courses. Grant is far better mark so can play tall if required, plus he's much quicker. What attribute are we looking at in terms of our plan and which one(s) are more relevant?

[Greystache]

Horses for courses. Grant is far better mark so can play tall if required, plus he's much quicker. What attribute are we looking at in terms of our plan and which one(s) are more relevant?

They both took 4 contested marks for the season and Suckling took almost twice as many uncontested marks. Dahlhaus took more than both. I wouldn't consider marking a strength for either player.

[chef]

Has Grant ever played 'tall' for us.

[GVGjr]

That absolutely needs to be our guide, but when it comes to signing free agents I'm not sure it applies. The AFL have tightened up the discounts for Father/Son and academy players but introduced a freebie with free agency.


I don't think the fact that he is a FA counts that much in my rating of him. We have 3 senior spots open and we must draft 3 players in some form. We have 2 more players we haven't signed up and it's unlikely we will. The gap in our playing list is around key defenders and as a minimum I believe we need to trade for/or acquire at least one during the trade period unless we are confident we can draft one.



In Suckling's case we should count ourselves lucky that our senior coach is his former line coach as that could get us over the line with him, there will be other clubs interested in signing someone for nothing as well, including those more in need of his type.

We don't want to get into a bidding war in an area we have good coverage but this could be a real bargain for us



I don't see it that way, I'm just looking at where he slots into our line-up. He has some limitations and that's more than okay with me. He has probably already played his best football though so there isn't a lot of upside but the positives I think he potentially provides us are around getting a player with a 100 games playing experience, including finals experience, plus he is a good user of the ball.

The Grant comparisons don't interest me much as they are different players. If we get him that's all good and well but he isn't the type of player we desperately need. I think we could have covered him with the players we have but I understand it's a somewhat easy acquisition for our club.

I look at our real push into the top 4 starting in 2017 and I see next season as one of continued development of the younger players.
I certainly don't mind it if we are adding an experienced player to the list but I question it a bit given it's in an area we have some good youngsters like Biggs and Webb that are also pressing for a spot in the back line.

[bulldogtragic]

All roads and conversations lead to Grant somehow this year.

Let me test this theory... I think Grimace was a nothing character and Hamburglar should've had more time in the spotlight.

[Bulldog Joe]

Horses for courses. Grant is far better mark so can play tall if required, plus he's much quicker. What attribute are we looking at in terms of our plan and which one(s) are more relevant?

My comment was merely around kicking.

Stats do not show the absolute superiority of Suckling by foot.

I personally do not see a great need being filled by Suckling.

[Scorlibo]

My comment was merely around kicking.

Stats do not show the absolute superiority of Suckling by foot.

I personally do not see a great need being filled by Suckling.

Of course they do, you're just not looking at all of the stats on offer.

[boydogs]

We're still missing a quarter of a cake given our extreme deficiencies in KPD stocks

Jordan Kelly is gone if we were counting him, Michael Talia is going and Jordan Roughead is moving to the ruck, yet we still have more 190cm+ defenders (Morris, Roberts, Hamling, Z Cordy) than 190cm+ forwards (T Boyd, Redpath, Stringer)

[Happy Days]

All roads and conversations lead to Grant somehow this year.

Let me test this theory... I think Grimace was a nothing character and Hamburglar should've had more time in the spotlight.

Someone at the elimination final told me its grimace's fault that Hunter missed him with the handball, and he's just too laconic and Doesn't Want It Bad Enough™ to be the lead mascot.

[bulldogtragic]

Someone at the elimination final told me its grimace's fault that Hunter missed him with the handball, and he's just too laconic and Doesn't Want It Bad Enough™ to be the lead mascot.

Fair enough too. That's a wonderful insight, it's now clear the coaches and especially Ronald just don't rate Grimace.

[jeemak]

Or at least they rate Hamburglar more highly.

[GVGjr]

Jordan Kelly is gone if we were counting him, Michael Talia is going and Jordan Roughead is moving to the ruck, yet we still have more 190cm+ defenders (Morris, Roberts, Hamling, Z Cordy) than 190cm+ forwards (T Boyd, Redpath, Stringer)

You're looking players heights and making fixed assessments on their playing positions and while I get that you don't see it that way, throwing Kelly's name into the discussion is meaningless.

Kelly was 191cm but I can't recall him playing as a fey defender for Footscray. Most of his games were on a wing or a flank. We delisted a big midfielder not a key defender.

Now lets look at it a bit more logically.
Morris will most likely be in his final year, Hamling is 194cm tall but it's more around his athleticism he adds to our back line than just his height. Roberts has some questions marks on his durability and mobility as a defender and Cordy will be groomed to replace Morris and assuming Talia is gone, it's a thin list and one that gives me the most concern.
We have asked Wood to play tall for most of the season because of injuries and form of others. We might be able to get another season out of that but I doubt it's a long term answer.

Our bigger forwards are Crameri, Boyd, Stinger and Redpath but they will have Roughead and Campbell spending time there plus Bontempelli might even spend more time in the forward line with Liberatore returning to the midfield. That seems pretty good to me.

We need an athletic tallish defender and because I believe the game is changing with chaos entries into a smaller forward line working well I think it's clear where the gap is.

[bulldogtragic]

Or at least they rate Hamburglar more highly.

For all Grimace's faults, he never stole junior burgers. Those team things never get mentioned. Unfair to compare them in my opinion.

[Dancin' Douggy]

For all Grimace's faults, he never stole junior burgers. Those team things never get mentioned. Unfair to compare them in my opinion.

Grimace and Hamburglar, I believe, were both better set shots than Grant.

[bornadog]

While I have reservations about Suckling and his ability to defend as well as win his own ball, there is absolutely no doubt that he is light years ahead of Grant with his kicking.

The goal he kicked on 3/4 time against Freo just could NEVER have been kicked by Grant.

and Grant kicked a pressure goal in the last (elimination final) to get us within a few points.

[Topdog]

and Grant kicked a pressure goal in the last (elimination final) to get us within a few points.

he did, I don't know why people pretend it didn't happen. His first 2 (3?) misses were very disappointing but that last shot was clutch.

[divvydan]

Clarkson announced at Hawthorn B&F that Suckling will join us as a FA.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Official.

Story is here (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-10-10/hawks-lose-premiership-player-matt-suckling-to-bulldogs)

[bulldogtragic]

He's now a player of our club. So now he's a dead set gun player and an awesome addition.

No compo for Grant if he leaves now absolute. So it's virtual delisting or sign him up.

[comrade]

I'm excited to see what Bevo has planned for Suckling's leg cannon!

Our first FA signing...

[comrade]

He's now a player of our club. So now he's a dead set gun player and an awesome addition.


Dare I say, a rich man's Eagleton?

[boydogs]

Our bigger forwards are Crameri, Boyd, Stringer and Redpath but they will have Roughead and Campbell spending time there plus Bontempelli might even spend more time in the forward line with Liberatore returning to the midfield. That seems pretty good to me.

Crameri & Stringer, like Wood & Morris, do their best work if they can be freed up and play on the 3rd & 4th defenders instead of having to step up and play tall. Boyd & Redpath in the same side makes us too slow. We need a Hamling type in the forward line, our monsters & rucks aren't mobile enough like Hawthorn, West Coast & Sydney's

We're also lacking depth and developing players. We've had a lot of turnover in our talls the last couple of years and are light on across all lines

[bulldogtragic]

Dare I say, a rich man's Eagleton?

Eagleton was a goal kicker, so I hope he is too then.

[bulldogtragic]

So three out so far and one in now. That's us short by one of three picks we need to use.

That means Talia, Grant, Minson and/or Hrovat are up now.

[comrade]

Eagleton was a goal kicker, so I hope he is too then.

I like the fact that Suckling kicks them when it matters - goals in successive grand finals.

[GVGjr]

Crameri & Stringer, like Wood & Morris, do their best work if they can be freed up and play on the 3rd & 4th defenders instead of having to step up and play tall. Boyd & Redpath in the same side makes us too slow. We need a Hamling type in the forward line, our monsters & rucks aren't mobile enough like Hawthorn, West Coast & Sydney's

We're also lacking depth and developing players. We've had a lot of turnover in our talls the last couple of years and are light on across all lines

That's why we are a developing list. We can't keep ignoring our lack of KP defenders.

[comrade]

That's why we are a developing list. We can't keep ignoring our lack of KP defenders.

I dare say our first pick will be used on the best KP player available; McKay x 2, Collins etc.

I wouldn't rule us out of having a huge crack next year a FA.

[boydogs]

Dare I say, a rich man's Eagleton?

It's taken us about 5 years and 10 trades & draft picks, but I think we've finally replaced Lindsay Gilbee

[G-Mo77]

So three out so far and one in now. That's us short by one of three picks we need to use.

That means Talia, Grant, Minson and/or Hrovat are up now.

I count Talia already. He won't be back, I'll boo him if he wears our colours again.

So 3 picks if nothing else happens and Grant is given a contract.

[boydogs]

That's why we are a developing list. We can't keep ignoring our lack of KP defenders.

There's no doubt we need to replace Talia & Roughead down there, but you say that like we haven't brought any in lately. We got Hamling & Zaine Cordy last year. There's only so much you can do in one off season with what's available, and we've had so many leave or fail to make the grade it's hard to keep up

[GVGjr]

There's no doubt we need to replace Talia & Roughead down there, but you say that like we haven't brought any in lately. We got Hamling & Zaine Cordy last year. There's only so much you can do in one off season with what's available, and we've had so many leave or fail to make the grade it's hard to keep up

Don't agree, we need to do more. We need at least one this year if we are to lose Talia.
Cordy and Hamling aren't genuine KPD. Cordy will probably get their because of his footy smarts and Hamling should get there because of his athleticism but unless Roberts has a break out season we are chronically light on

[bulldogtragic]

Don't agree, we need to do more. We need at least one this year if we are to lose Talia.
Cordy and Hamling aren't genuine KPD. Cordy will probably get their because of his footy smarts and Hamling should get there because of his athleticism but unless Roberts has a break out season we are chronically light on

I'm with you 100%. I quite liked Darcy Gardiner as a junior. If we could net Saints pick 5 and on trade if for he and Aish that would be help. Same for GWS if it was Treloar and a KPD. We need this addressed to some degree this year as Cordy needs to time to develop rather than get thrown in the deep end.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Don't agree, we need to do more. We need at least one this year if we are to lose Talia.
Cordy and Hamling aren't genuine KPD. Cordy will probably get their because of his footy smarts and Hamling should get there because of his athleticism but unless Roberts has a break out season we are chronically light on

I'd argue we need to add another two to the list.

Ideally an 18 y.o that we can develop and a 22-26 y.o defender from a state league who is ready to play.

As you said, Hamling and ZCordy are more second/third tall types. Roberts looked OK earlier in the year but even he (at this stage) can't play on the big forwards. There's no guarantee that any of the three mentioned make it.

[GVGjr]

I'd argue we need to add another two to the list.

Ideally an 18 y.o that we can develop and a 22-26 y.o defender from a state league who is ready to play.

As you said, Hamling and ZCordy are more second/third tall types. Roberts looked OK earlier in the year but even he (at this stage) can't play on the big forwards. There's no guarantee that any of the three mentioned make it.

I'm leaning to us having to take a punt on either Mitch Brown or Michael Hartley from the VFL at the draft unless something else jumps up. We can ask Morris and Wood to play tall again next season to support Roberts and Hamling but it's not ideal especially when I think in 2017 we will have the sort of age, experience and talent profile needed to have a genuine crack at the top 4 and I see our current lack of key defenders as a real risk to that.

The only other option is to abandon the current plans to play Roughead in the ruck next season.

[hujsh]

It's taken us about 5 years and 10 trades & draft picks, but I think we've finally replaced Lindsay Gilbee

Nah, I don't think there's a true Gilbee replacement in the entire league for both pure kicking skill and defensive ability. That said the closest to it would be our current captain (or maybe Hurn on second thought, not sure if his kicking is as accurate though or just long)

[boydogs]

Don't agree, we need to do more. We need at least one this year if we are to lose Talia

I said we need 2, what part don't you agree with?

[GVGjr]

I said we need 2, what part don't you agree with?

The part where you say "there is only so much you can do". I'm hoping the addition of Suckling is just part of something else addressed our lack of KPD

[boydogs]

The part where you say "there is only so much you can do". I'm hoping the addition of Suckling is just part of something else addressed our lack of KPD

I mean, there's only so much you can do in one off season. Not everyone is out of contract or tradeable every year, and there are only so many options in each draft. Which KPD's did we overlook in the 2014 draft, Oscar McDonald? Perhaps we didn't rate him, he wasn't picked up until after our last pick afterall

We picked up 2 of them in one year who both look promising. I reckon we were OK after that assuming everyone came good, but now with Talia going and Roughead moving to ruck we definitely need 2 more.

I've said in another thread I would offer up pick 11 for Lachie Henderson, I definitely see getting a ready to go KPD as a high priority. What are your thoughts on that option?

I read your comments below about Cordy & Hamling not being KPD's but then you also said we need an athletic tallish type which is how I would describe them. Henderson at 196cm/96kg is a bit taller and stronger


Cordy and Hamling aren't genuine KPD


We need an athletic tallish defender and because I believe the game is changing with chaos entries into a smaller forward line working well I think it's clear where the gap is.

[GVGjr]

I read your comments below about Cordy & Hamling not being KPD's but then you also said we need an athletic tallish type which is how I would describe them. Henderson at 196cm/96kg is a bit taller and stronger

You've edited out the further explanations I gave on both Cordy and Hamling but as we will be entering 2016 season neither of them can be counted to be a KPD week after week and it's about giving them another development season.

Henderson would solve our problems but pick 11 is a huge price to pay for someone who didn't have a great season and played mainly as a forward. He also wants to go to Geelong but while that still doesn't rule him out of calculations it's not a great endorsement.

It became evident that we had two area's of concern this season. A key defender and and a quality ruckman should have been high on our shopping list and this was before a few things have recently become evident.
Subsequently we made a strong pitch to land Stefan Martin that acknowledges the clubs concern in the ruck and we would have liked to have a chat to Jake Carlisle who appears to be adamant he wants to play as a defender but we weren't prepared to pay him overs.
We have now acquired Matthew Suckling.

With Talia now a likely departure and the club is making noises that Roughead will apparently moving in to the ruck so we've certainly gone backwards further in our key defensive options and it's questionable is we have improved our rucking options that much but lets assume we have.

I suspect that we will keep looking for a key defender during the trade period and we may have to draft one as well. We might even have to use a rookie list spot.

[ledge]

Luke has pretty much says he is happy with our list and the only thing the club has actually said is we need a ruckman,
so I am not sure the club is thinking our backs are too bad and with Morris probably retiring next year it's only one hole to fill and I would say Cordy will be the one who comes in after next season playing a few games and getting experience then taking over when Morris goes.

[GVGjr]

Luke has pretty much says he is happy with our list and the only thing the club has actually said is we need a ruckman, so I am not sure the club is thinking our backs are too bad and with Morris probably retiring next year it's only one hole to fill and I would say Cordy will be the one who comes in after next season playing a few games and getting experience then taking over when Morris goes.

Luke has it wrong if he really does think we have the key defensive posts covered for next season. Worse than that we don't have the options coming through either. I think it's very reliant on Morris and Wood playing tall next season and hoping that Roberts can stay on the field.

Cordy has the footy smarts and I can see him playing a bit like Morris going forward but he played just 12 games this season and needs to build on that next year next year.

[Go_Dogs]

With respect to potential key defender options, I think we ought to be targeting one via trade and then looking at adding a couple via the ND and RD.

There is a lot of water to go under the bridge, but I could see a side like North being interested in Hrovat. That could potentially open the door for us to chase someone like Durdin who is a developing tall defender, along with Nielsen or Vickers-Willis. My understanding however is that Durdin signed a contract extension, Nielsen is injured and V-W might not have been a highly rated player last year for us. Ideally though, I'd like to see us trade for a 1-3 year key defender who can continue to grow and develop with our system.

Nick Coughlan seems like a sound addition, perhaps via the RD and there will be a few key defenders who sit around our first selection in the ND.

Ideally one of the blokes we look to should be versatile enough to play both ends, given we are lacking another developing key forward too.

It's going to get very interesting this week.

[GVGjr]

With respect to potential key defender options, I think we ought to be targeting one via trade and then looking at adding a couple via the ND and RD.


Agree, if a trade goes through for Talia as expected then it has to result in a key defender. We will now be forced to look at drafting another key defender in one of the drafts perhaps both.



There is a lot of water to go under the bridge, but I could see a side like North being interested in Hrovat. That could potentially open the door for us to chase someone like Durdin who is a developing tall defender, along with Nielsen or Vickers-Willis. My understanding however is that Durdin signed a contract extension, Nielsen is injured and V-W might not have been a highly rated player last year for us. Ideally though, I'd like to see us trade for a 1-3 year key defender who can continue to grow and develop with our system.



I'd be surprised if North were prepared to part with players but we might need to cast the net wide and see what clubs might be willing to do.



Nick Coughlan seems like a sound addition, perhaps via the RD and there will be a few key defenders who sit around our first selection in the ND.

Ideally one of the blokes we look to should be versatile enough to play both ends, given we are lacking another developing key forward too.

It's going to get very interesting this week.

GWS have already nominated Coughlan so he won't make it to the RD.

[Go_Dogs]

GWS have already nominated Coughlan so he won't make it to the RD.

I'd missed that, thanks. Will be interesting to see if he is on our radar then. Thankfully they have a few academy players this year which may mean Coughlan slips through if a club is prepared to bid with an early-ish pick. We'd presumably be well positioned to make such a decision.


On North, I suspect you're right. It's perhaps the fact they acquired so many defenders last year, and the Boomer link to Hrovat that has got me curious about it. For mine they are lacking a bit in the small midfield-forward area, as far as players who have the scope to use the ball well, and Hrovat could be a good fit to help them progress.

[LostDoggy]

Whilst picking up a quality ruckmen and KPD would be ideal, who is actually available?

All the ruckmen that have been mentioned as being on the move are not what I would call quality. Not better than what we currently have. We have obviously gone really hard at Martin, who is quality.

Picking up a KPD is in the same boat, what availble players out there are actually better than what we have? We tired for Carisle, Henderson knocked us back last year and is adament he wants the Cats.

Whilst we do need depth in this area especially with Talia gone and Roughy looking likey to play ruck, I still believe the stage our list is at we should only be looking to bring in a player who is an improvement on what we already have. If we have to wait a year for that player then so be it.

I would be more than happy to rookie a KPD from the VFL eg Brown, however I'm not opposed to bringing in a soso ruckmen or KPD to our list who isn't an improvement on what we currently have just for the sake of it.

[bornadog]

Luke has pretty much says he is happy with our list and the only thing the club has actually said is we need a ruckman,
so I am not sure the club is thinking our backs are too bad and with Morris probably retiring next year it's only one hole to fill and I would say Cordy will be the one who comes in after next season playing a few games and getting experience then taking over when Morris goes.

He said that before the Talia issues came up. Pretty sure his thinking would be different now.

[GVGjr]

I'd missed that, thanks. Will be interesting to see if he is on our radar then. Thankfully they have a few academy players this year which may mean Coughlan slips through if a club is prepared to bid with an early-ish pick. We'd presumably be well positioned to make such a decision.



They will have some more currency soon so can match anything if they really want to. Coughlan would have been a nice addition but certainly a longer term prospect.

[GVGjr]

Nick Coughlan seems like a sound addition, perhaps via the RD and there will be a few key defenders who sit around our first selection in the ND.


Just having a look at his combine results and he had an disappointing 11 - 10 beep test. His repeat sprint effort was poor as well.

[bulldogsman]

GWS have already nominated Coughlan so he won't make it to the RD.

I believe the academy nominations have different rules to the father/son nominations. GWS nominated a few last year that weren't taken at all and pretty certain Coughlan was actually one of those players.

[GVGjr]

I believe the academy nominations have different rules to the father/son nominations. GWS nominated a few last year that weren't taken at all and pretty certain Coughlan was actually one of those players.

Thanks for the interesting clarification. What I read a couple of weeks back was that Coughlan had been nominated as a GWS Academy Player for the National Draft.

[comrade]

Just having a look at his combine results and he had an disappointing 11 - 10 beep test. His repeat sprint effort was poor as well.

The whole combine is more of a marketing exercise IMO. The testing results mean very little as players can improve considerably when introduced to a professional environment. I remember the concern over Michael Hurley's ability to become elite because he tested 'slow' at draft camp.

Coughlan's numbers suggest he has plenty of development/improvement in him.

[GVGjr]

The whole combine is more of a marketing exercise IMO. The testing results mean very little as players can improve considerably when introduced to a professional environment. I remember the concern over Michael Hurley's ability to become elite because he tested 'slow' at draft camp.

Coughlan's numbers suggest he has plenty of development/improvement in him.

Granted it's just part of the picture but if you look at the guys we drafted last year who all had above average results in the beep test I suspect the results are poured over when considering the draft order.

I saw Coughlan late in the year during the finals and may have even mentioned here he seemed to be winded a lot. The combine results probably explain it better but what I neglected to mention was the V02 results which I think isn't a bad thing to consider.

The also measure the guys through the season to see their progress so I think it's something most value.

[Bulldog4life]

The whole combine is more of a marketing exercise IMO. The testing results mean very little as players can improve considerably when introduced to a professional environment. I remember the concern over Michael Hurley's ability to become elite because he tested 'slow' at draft camp.

Coughlan's numbers suggest he has plenty of development/improvement in him.

On the news tonight I heard young Rioli say one of the recruiters asked him to spell MELBOURNE backwards.

[bulldogtragic]

On the news tonight I heard young Rioli say one of the recruiters asked him to spell MELBOURNE backwards.

Yeah, that was Melbourne's recruiter. They want to ensure all recruits are backward thinkers to fit in with Roos, Macca and the rest of that shite attempt at a club.

[Eastdog]

Will be an interesting week come up with the trades. We need a back men and a ruck. The midfield looks good and we still have to remember we have Libba and Smith to come back in there and the forward line now is no longer as much of a concern.

Do woofers agree with this assessment or are their areas that I may be overlooking?

[Eastdog]

Would Campbell need to perform well next year if he is to have a future with us beyond 2016?

[bulldogsman]

Thanks for the interesting clarification. What I read a couple of weeks back was that Coughlan had been nominated as a GWS Academy Player for the National Draft.

This one?

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-09-30/highlyrated-pair-nominated-as-academy-picks-for-draft

I can't seem to find an exact clarification on it. In other years though, they were nominated a couple months beforehand and bid on them during trade week. As far as I'm aware they never had to nominate them for specific drafts and there's no mention of them changing this rule.

Far out the new bidding system is incredibly complicated btw.

[comrade]

Granted it's just part of the picture but if you look at the guys we drafted last year who all had above average results in the beep test I suspect the results are poured over when considering the draft order.

I saw Coughlan late in the year during the finals and may have even mentioned here he seemed to be winded a lot. The combine results probably explain it better but what I neglected to mention was the V02 results which I think isn't a bad thing to consider.

The also measure the guys through the season to see their progress so I think it's something most value.

The beep test results last year may have been a small factor, but I dare say it was our draftees' above average football IQ which had the most bearing on us selecting them.

If they can play, we should back in our environment to get them physically right.

[ledge]

The beep test results last year may have been a small factor, but I dare say it was our draftees' above average football IQ which had the most bearing on us selecting them.

If they can play, we should back in our environment to get them physically right.

But some players just haven't got the tank and you can't get it into them no matter how much you try.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

The whole combine is more of a marketing exercise IMO. The testing results mean very little as players can improve considerably when introduced to a professional environment. I remember the concern over Michael Hurley's ability to become elite because he tested 'slow' at draft camp.

Coughlan's numbers suggest he has plenty of development/improvement in him.
Strong mark, good goal kicking technique, good kick on both sides, smart player:


http://www.afl.com.au/video/2014-09-16/draft-prospect-nicholas-coughlan

[anfo27]

OCTOBER 12, 1.53PM: HROVAT STAYING PUT
Western Bulldogs young gun Nathan Hrovat is unlikely to leave the Kennel despite rival clubs sniffing around the 21-year-old forward, his manager Peter Lenton says.
"He just didn't get a decent run at it this year, he had soft-tissue injuries. It was a really, really frustrating year for him and players have those years," Lenton told Trade Radio.
"If he gets his body right he'll back himself to be in the best 22."

[Ozza]

Good news. I would be disappointed to lose Hrovat. I think some continuity in his footy will bring out his best, and I'm optimistic he will be a really good player for us in the long term.

[Twodogs]

Fantastic news. Great that players want to stay despite strong interest from other clubs.

[Rocco Jones]

Really like how much purpose our list management seems to have at the moment. Holding off on Grant to give ourselves more flexibility with Suckling. Being prepared to not getting Suckling when the Lions were going to pay more than we wanted. Not chasing Carislie after his manager refused to let us meet him. We aren't desperate.

At the moment we are going into the draft with 3 picks. Just a few factors:
- Talia obviously gone. That spot will be taken up with pick or player we get as compo.
- Ideally we get ourselves a ruckman and trade Will. If we acquire another free agent, looks like we will delist Grant. I can see us rookie listing him.

[G-Mo77]

Really like how much purpose our list management seems to have at the moment. Holding off on Grant to give ourselves more flexibility with Suckling. Being prepared to not getting Suckling when the Lions were going to pay more than we wanted. Not chasing Carislie after his manager refused to let us meet him. We aren't desperate.

At the moment we are going into the draft with 3 picks. Just a few factors:
- Talia obviously gone. That spot will be taken up with pick or player we get as compo.
- Ideally we get ourselves a ruckman and trade Will. If we acquire another free agent, looks like we will delist Grant. I can see us rookie listing him.

We're actually sitting on 2 picks. Darley, Fuller and Cordy were the only ones on the main list delisted.

Talia is gone so that makes 3, Grant still up in the air.

[Rocco Jones]

We're actually sitting on 2 picks. Darley, Fuller and Cordy were the only ones on the main list delisted.

Talia is gone so that makes 3, Grant still up in the air.

You're right. Thanks for the correction mate.

[Webby]

We're actually sitting on 2 picks. Darley, Fuller and Cordy were the only ones on the main list delisted.

Talia is gone so that makes 3, Grant still up in the air.

You'd think Darcy McPherson will come in, so I'd expect Grant is gone. Meanwhile, Roarke Smith will most likely spend another year on the Rookie List. As I think about McPherson coming in, I can't help but think Honeychurch or Hrovat need to be traded.

[Rocco Jones]

You'd think Darcy McPherson will come in, so I'd expect Grant is gone. Meanwhile, Roarke Smith will most likely spend another year on the Rookie List. As I think about McPherson coming in, I can't help but think Honeychurch or Hrovat need to be traded.

I think with Grant it all depends on what happens with the trade period. If we miss out on a player we want him or out, we will give Grant a one year contract on the senior list. If not and no one else wants him, we will rookie list him.

If we had 0 interest in him we would have delisted him. I think we want to retain him but for as cheap as possible (financially and spot on list wise).

[bulldogtragic]

I think with Grant it all depends on what happens with the trade period. If we miss out on a player we want him or out, we will give Grant a one year contract on the senior list. If not and no one else wants him, we will rookie list him.

If we had 0 interest in him we would have delisted him. I think we want to retain him but for as cheap as possible (financially and spot on list wise).

The last part is bang on. The club is taking a risk of losing him, but he's not been delisted. They're screwing him as hard as they can within reason of him walking. If he's the last player on our list, that's a good list.

[Mantis]

Granted it's just part of the picture but if you look at the guys we drafted last year who all had above average results in the beep test I suspect the results are poured over when considering the draft order.



The fitness results are certainly important, but considering we drafted all 'flanker' types you would hope that their running capabilities are sound.. Less important with the big guys who can take a bit longer to find their running legs.

[GVGjr]

The fitness results are certainly important, but considering we drafted all 'flanker' types you would hope that their running capabilities are sound.. Less important with the big guys who can take a bit longer to find their running legs.

The thing is that none of the 'flanker types' had great leg speed. All tested around the mid range mark for the sprints. Certainly endurance was regarded higher than pure leg speed for us last year.

[jeemak]

You'd think Darcy McPherson will come in, so I'd expect Grant is gone. Meanwhile, Roarke Smith will most likely spend another year on the Rookie List. As I think about McPherson coming in, I can't help but think Honeychurch or Hrovat need to be traded.

Is McPherson going to be commanding a spot on the senior list? I thought to this point a late rookie selection is all we'd need to secure him.

I appreciate he's been injured, though I don't think as a junior he's going to be displacing two players who entered the system as All Australian players and have chipped away at accumulating senior experience over the last few years.

[Mantis]

The thing is that none of the 'flanker types' had great leg speed. All tested around the mid range mark for the sprints. Certainly endurance was regarded higher than pure leg speed for us last year.

I think the ability 'to play' trumped any testing, just co-incidence that our players have good endurance and think that if they were quicker then most of them would have been picked in the first 25.

[GVGjr]

The Fox Draft Combine panel had us selecting key defender Kieran Collins tonight. He measured in at 193.8cm and 99.6kg at the combine and doesn't turn 18 until later this year. Powerfully built youngster.

[bulldogtragic]

The Fox Draft Combine panel had us selecting key defender Kieran Collins tonight. He measured in at 193.8cm and 99.6kg at the combine and doesn't turn 18 until later this year. Powerfully built youngster.

What's your take on that suggested selection G?

[GVGjr]

What's your take on that suggested selection G?

I saw him a few times during the season and I thought he was good with the one on one contests but not the most attacking of players.
Dandenong swung him forward in one of the games. He's very young and a hard one to gauge. He improved from a 13 - 1 beep to 14 - 2 during the season. I wonder how much improvement is still in him.

[comrade]

Would be pretty happy snaring Collins. Given his build and the fact he's still only 17, I reckon he could slot in quicker than most KPD's.

Not too concerned about his lack of offensive game. We have plenty of players in our back line to do the running.

[GVGjr]

Would be pretty happy snaring Collins. Given his build and the fact he's still only 17, I reckon he could slot in quicker than most KPD's.

Not too concerned about his lack of offensive game. We have plenty of players in our back line to do the running.

I'd be fairly certain to say he won't go half arsed once he arrives at a club.

[Mofra]

The Fox Draft Combine panel had us selecting key defender Kieran Collins tonight. He measured in at 193.8cm and 99.6kg at the combine and doesn't turn 18 until later this year. Powerfully built youngster.
Wow, really? All the stats (perhaps from the start of the year) have him as 191cm

Is he the kid that is great at almost everything but has the agility of a housebrick/Jack Redpath?

[Mofra]

I saw him a few times during the season and I thought he was good with the one on one contests but not the most attacking of players.
Dandenong swung him forward in one of the games. He's very young and a hard one to gauge. He improved from a 13 - 1 beep to 14 - 2 during the season. I wonder how much improvement is still in him.
Pretty good for a bigman - Bonti was better than average and he managed 14.6 at draft camp IIRC

[The Doctor]

My concern with Collins is whether or not he has any further development in him. He is quite developed physically which gives him an advantage against boys. Can he transfer that to competing against men? I see good arguments both ways but I wouldn't take him at pick 11.

[Mofra]

My concern with Collins is whether or not he has any further development in him. He is quite developed physically which gives him an advantage against boys. Can he transfer that to competing against men? I see good arguements both ways but I wouldn't take him at pick 11.
The "Shannon Hurn" argument.
Bigger body = less upside vs smaller body = taking longer to develop (then who knows)?

I have to admit after years of Clayton picks I'd lean towards bigger than smaller bodies.

[GVGjr]

Wow, really? All the stats (perhaps from the start of the year) have him as 191cm

Is he the kid that is great at almost everything but has the agility of a housebrick/Jack Redpath?

He doesn't look slow on the field but his sprint times were around the bottom 3rd of the combine
5m 1.10, 10m 1.85 and 20m 3.09
Agility 8.62 which were once again around the bottom 3rd tested.
Shuttle 14 - 2 which was very good and a huge improve from a test he did earlier this year
Repeat sprints 25.75 and he was perfect in the clean hands test

Given his age and his size of 99kg he could have plenty of upside.

[GVGjr]

My concern with Collins is whether or not he has any further development in him. He is quite developed physically which gives him an advantage against boys. Can he transfer that to competing against men? I see good arguments both ways but I wouldn't take him at pick 11.

I get what you are saying and seeing him play I did have a Paul Gow flashback.

[The Doctor]

The "Shannon Hurn" argument.
Bigger body = less upside vs smaller body = taking longer to develop (then who knows)?

I have to admit after years of Clayton picks I'd lean towards bigger than smaller bodies.

Hurn was a genuine gun however.

Clayton's penchant for skinny outside midfielders and unskilled/untried smokies drove me to the brink of insanity!

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

After last year I am expecting the club to come up with a massive coup which will surprise us all.

[Mofra]

After last year I am expecting the club to come up with a massive coup which will surprise us all.
I'd be happy with some value signing nobody has ever heard of for peanuts.
The Hamling & Biggs pick-ups were excellent

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

Yes they were great pick ups

[Eastdog]

Yes they were great pick ups

Yes so far I reckon they have worked out well for us.

[F'scary]

I'd be happy with some value signing nobody has ever heard of for peanuts.
The Hamling & Biggs pick-ups were excellent

Great employment of the money ball concept by the Doggies. Hamling, not high on anyone's list (including Geebong's) because he is a bit skinny. But stats wise and see him play, nothing wrong with him. Biggs, mature recruit, experience is only about where you would expect a 19 YO to be but his stats and an actual viewing of him playing reveal he should be a good addition to the senior list. Money ball is all about seeing past the commonly accepted premium indicators that drive draft pick order and salary and finding other, less used but good predictors of success - including seeing if they can actually play.

[Mofra]

Money ball is all about seeing past the commonly accepted premium indicators that drive draft pick order and salary and finding other, less used but good predictors of success - including seeing if they can actually play.
That's why I was comfortable with us chasing Zac Clarke.
Looks a bit of a gumby often on the field, but when he played first ruck in 2013 he looked good and is just coming into his prime - would have been a similar style signing IMO.

[Raw Toast]

I think the ability 'to play' trumped any testing, just co-incidence that our players have good endurance and think that if they were quicker then most of them would have been picked in the first 25.

I don't know either way, though I'm sure the 'eye test' in terms of playing ability was vital. Nevertheless, with the reduction in interchange rotations endurance is going to become a bigger factor again. (Also makes Melbourne's delisting of Cross less understandable.)

[LostDoggy]

The Fox Draft Combine panel had us selecting key defender Kieran Collins tonight. He measured in at 193.8cm and 99.6kg at the combine and doesn't turn 18 until later this year. Powerfully built youngster.

Can we insist on a background check to ensure no family ties are present?

[Mofra]

Can we insist on a background check to ensure no family ties are present?
No relation to Premiership Forward Jack Collins, we can relax

[KT31]

Rumour doing the rounds there is some interest in Darley by a Vic club.

[GVGjr]

Rumour doing the rounds there is some interest in Darley by a Vic club.

He's not a bad player. The problem for him with us was that JJ, Biggs and Webb performed better.

[Bulldog Revolution]

He's not a bad player. The problem for him with us was that JJ, Biggs and Webb performed better.

Add to that bringing in Suckling and it didnt make any sense to keep him

[Mofra]

Rumour doing the rounds there is some interest in Darley by a Vic club.
He'd be signed as a delisted free agent I imagine, or we'd trade him for a pick in the 90s we're not going to use.

[Bulldog Joe]

He'd be signed as a delisted free agent I imagine, or we'd trade him for a pick in the 90s we're not going to use.

Since he is already delisted, we have no trade option.

Any club can sign him as a delisted free agent.

[ratsmac]

Since he is already delisted, we have no trade option.

Any club can sign him as a delisted free agent.

And no offence to Sam, but the fact that he is delisted is the only reason someone is interested.

[Twodogs]

Good luck to Sam. He represented our club well on and off the field.

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

He has impressive ears

[G-Mo77]

Rumour doing the rounds there is some interest in Darley by a Vic club.

Happy to hear that. Really like the kid and would like to see him get another crack at it. He's got the tools there, he's just got to believe in himself.

[comrade]

Just happy that the Lachie Hunter whispers have all but died down. Mid way through the year the odds he was on his way out were pretty good.

[Greystache]

Just happy that the Lachie Hunter whispers have all but died down. Mid way through the year the odds he was on his way out were pretty good.

His odds were never that great, but he believed he was a key component to a great team, Bevo thought he should prove it first. They met in the middle eventually :)

[jeemak]

I also like Darley as the player he could be, but he seems like he's not quite ready to be it yet head wise, and only flashes have been produced. Good luck to him.

[F'scary]

I also like Darley as the player he could be, but he seems like he's not quite ready to be it yet head wise, and only flashes have been produced. Good luck to him.

A case of wrong place, wrong time. We had to reduce the senior list by a minimum of 3 and our list is full of young guys on the up. I thought there were positives in his 2 showings in the AFL. He would be worth a late pick for many clubs in the coming draft.

[comrade]

His odds were never that great, but he believed he was a key component to a great team, Bevo thought he should prove it first. They met in the middle eventually :)

In Bevo We Trust.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Looks like Astbury to Lions has cooled

Cheapish key defensive option - straight replacement for Talia

Would Astbury be of interest to us?

[Sedat]

Looks like Astbury to Lions has cooled

Cheapish key defensive option - straight replacement for Talia

Would Astbury be of interest to us?
He was very good for about half a season as a key defender before he did his knee a couple of years ago. With Rance and Chaplin hardly missing a game in the last couple of years, he has been starved of opportunities - wouldn't be against having a look at him.

[GVGjr]

Looks like Astbury to Lions has cooled

Cheapish key defensive option - straight replacement for Talia

Would Astbury be of interest to us?

I'd see him more as a depth player with the potential to be get a few games but I wonder if he could command a regular game.
In the senior games he played this year he struggled against Dawes and got thrashed by Hawkins but the previous year he had some good performances against some good opponents.

I think the Tigers would want our 2nd rounder for him.

[Sedat]

I'd see him more as a depth player with the potential to be get a few games but I wonder if he could command a regular game.
In the senior games he played this year he struggled against Dawes and got thrashed by Hawkins but the previous year he had some good performances against some good opponents.

I think the Tigers would want our 2nd rounder for him.
True, but KPP's always struggle the year after coming back from a knee reco. I would look at his form the previous year as a better guide to what he is capable of at this level.

[GVGjr]

True, but KPP's always struggle the year after coming back from a knee reco. I would look at his form the previous year as a better guide to what he is capable of at this level.

That's why I added it also getting beaten by Hawkins is something that happens to a few defenders. I think the thing that appeals is his mobility which could fit into our back line.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I'd see him more as a depth player with the potential to be get a few games but I wonder if he could command a regular game.
In the senior games he played this year he struggled against Dawes and got thrashed by Hawkins but the previous year he had some good performances against some good opponents.

I think the Tigers would want our 2nd rounder for him.

I think they'd want the 2nd rounder for him also, and thats not a price I'd personally consider

[LostDoggy]

Just happy that the Lachie Hunter whispers have all but died down. Mid way through the year the odds he was on his way out were pretty good.

After his first 2 selfish kicks coming on as sub in the Gold Coast match it didn't look great for him.

[boydogs]

Looks like we're after Steven May & pick 3 from Gold Coast

No idea what would go back the other way

[bornadog]

Looks like we're after Steven May & pick 3 from Gold Coast

No idea what would go back the other way

Discussion here (http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?14932-Silly-Season-(post-home-and-away-season-trade-period)-suggestions/page17)

[kruder]

Amazing how many top draft picks are moving after only a few years on the list and for chump change lets be honest. It looks like Menzel is next, what is does show is how important it is nailing your first pick. We have had our share of shockers over the years but finally we have got it right. More than right in Bont,Stringer and Macrae :)))))))))))))))))))

[Twodogs]

Imagine how much better 8, 9 and 10 would have gone if we had of nailed a couple more of the first rounders/early picks we had in the drafts leading up to those years.

[Mofra]

Amazing how many top draft picks are moving after only a few years on the list and for chump change lets be honest. It looks like Menzel is next, what is does show is how important it is nailing your first pick. We have had our share of shockers over the years but finally we have got it right. More than right in Bont,Stringer and Macrae :)))))))))))))))))))
Early, but last year's first two picks (McLean and Webb) look like long term players to me too

[kruder]

Early, but last year's first two picks (McLean and Webb) look like long term players to me too

I'd take Mclean over Aish Toumpas Freeman and co everyday of the week.

[Twodogs]

Every touch is quality with MacLean.

[Templeton31]

I'm ready for this trade period to end. its served its purpose, i.e. to help me detox from the footy season, and now I just want it to finish without us doing anything stupid (and it doesn't seem like we will).

[Twodogs]

I'm ready for this trade period to end. its served its purpose, i.e. to help me detox from the footy season, and now I just want it to finish without us doing anything stupid (and it doesn't seem like we will).

Only two more sleeps to go.

[Remi Moses]

The beer goggles come on in trade period .
Every player's ability seems to increase twofold

[Templeton31]

The beer goggles come on in trade period .
Every player's ability seems to increase twofold

Aint that the truth! And Jonathan Giles is always there and as the night goes on he looks better and better......

[BulldogBelle]

Imagine how much better 8, 9 and 10 would have gone if we had of nailed a couple more of the first rounders/early picks we had in the drafts leading up to those years.

If we only knew how to draft back then.
Who kows what might of happened.

[GVGjr]

Back to list management, we've been patient during this trade period but if we are to get involved in a trade for a player or something with draft picks then today should be the day it becomes a bit more evident. I just think there is something brewing but it might not be a big name player.

[bornadog]

Back to list management, we've been patient during this trade period but if we are to get involved in a trade for a player or something with draft picks then today should be the day it becomes a bit more evident. I just think there is something brewing but it might not be a big name player.

I am not too fussed if we trade for a player or not. I think we are managing our list very well, and perhaps we could pick up some mature aged rookies (Ruck and CHB) that can step in if we need them during the year.

[northernsoul74]

According to latest trade news from The Age we have made a firm enquiry for Lobbe but he may have already knocked us back.
Back to list management, we've been patient during this trade period but if we are to get involved in a trade for a player or something with draft picks then today should be the day it becomes a bit more evident. I just think there is something brewing but it might not be a big name player.

[Mofra]

I am not too fussed if we trade for a player or not. I think we are managing our list very well, and perhaps we could pick up some mature aged rookies (Ruck and CHB) that can step in if we need them during the year.
We might pick up one of the mature CHB VFL agers at the draft anyway (Cogs, Hartley, Brown)

Glad we missed out on Lobbe

[GVGjr]

We might pick up one of the mature CHB VFL agers at the draft anyway (Cogs, Hartley, Brown)

Glad we missed out on Lobbe

I'd hope we are focused on that, we just need to add some depth,

[Bulldog Joe]

There has been lots of discussion on various threads about players we should be targeting etc.

There is also discussion around the retaining of Grant, but we do seem somewhat tied in that we do not have the spots to bring in players.

Currently we have delisted 3 senior list in Cordy, Darley and Fuller and added Suckling. That means we have 2 spots available and the certain departure of Talia makes 3.

We are required to go to the draft with 3 available spots.

We cannot bring in another player by trading unless we actually trade someone out.
Obviously Jarrad Grant is in limbo and will be the player to depart if we do add someone else, without another departure.

List management is a balancing act.

[GVGjr]

That is the reason why we didn't give Grant a contract though. He is providing the option to potentially trade in a player assuming Talia won't be with us.

[The Doctor]

Listed here is our team in positional order and their respective ages as at the start of the 2016 season. In this thread we can discuss what we need to do to improve our list, trade and recruiting ideas & rumours, types of draftees we need etc. The positions are just a guide as some players could easily cross from one group to another.


Key Forwards

Boyd 20, Stringer 21, Redpath 25,


Medium/Small Forwards

Crameri 27, Dickson 28, McLean 20, Hamilton 20, Dale 19,


Ruckmen

Minson 31, Roughead 25, Campbell 24,


Tall Midfielders

Bontempelli 20, Macrae 21, Stevens 24, Jong 22,


Small Midfielders

Liberatore 23, Wallis 23, Picken 29, Dahlhaus 23, Hunter 21, Hrovat 21, C.Smith 22, Honeychurch 21, Prudden 21, Daniel 19,


Key Defenders

Morris 33, Hamling 23, Roberts 22, Z.Cordy 19


Medium/Small Defenders

Murphy 33, Boyd 33, Wood 26, Johannisen 23, Webb 20, Biggs 24, R.Smith 19*, Suckling 27

Opening para now updated after trade week.

We have 4 positions on the primary list to fill and 3 on the rookie list.

This shows me that we are in need of 1 ruckman, 2 key defenders, 1 or 2 key forwards.

[Mofra]

This shows me that we are in need of 1 ruckman, 2 key defenders, 1 or 2 key forwards.
Excuse me for being anal, but I'd be more nuanced - we need a tall high forward, one who can cover ground and leave either Boyd or Redpath deep. If they were 193cm (shortish for a modern KPF) but could fill the role I'd be interested

[F'scary]

Excuse me for being anal, but I'd be more nuanced - we need a tall high forward, one who can cover ground and leave either Boyd or Redpath deep. If they were 193cm (shortish for a modern KPF) but could fill the role I'd be interested

Hamling?

[1eyedog]

Excuse me for being anal, but I'd be more nuanced - we need a tall high forward, one who can cover ground and leave either Boyd or Redpath deep. If they were 193cm (shortish for a modern KPF) but could fill the role I'd be interested

Grant?

In all seriousness doesn't / shouldn't Stringer or Crameri fill this role?

[boydogs]

This shows me that we are in need of 1 ruckman, 2 key defenders, 1 or 2 key forwards.

I think we need a small forward. You've got McLean, Hamilton & Dale listed there but none of them are lightning quick, highly skilled crumber types. We've never replaced Dahlhaus in the forward line

[Happy Days]

I think we need a small forward. You've got McLean, Hamilton & Dale listed there but none of them are lightning quick, highly skilled crumber types. We've never replaced Dahlhaus in the forward line

Honeychurch? Daniel?

Our ball containment inside 50 stems from our mids flooding down to create a stoppage anyway. We were one of the best teams from scoring from stoppages last year.

[boydogs]

Honeychurch? Daniel?

Our ball containment inside 50 stems from our mids flooding down to create a stoppage anyway. We were one of the best teams from scoring from stoppages last year.

Daniel's not quick, he's a genuine mid. I like Honeychurch down there, but he only played 11 games. The Boyd & Honeychurch combo worked well early in the season

[The Doctor]

Daniel not quick, he's a genuine mid. I like Honeychurch down there, but he only played 11 games. The Boyd & Honeychurch combo worked well early in the season

Honeychurch is not a great finisher nor a real opportunistic goalkicker. But I can see your earlier point about a small forward, someone who can finish & pluck a goal from his bum! Daniel Rioli might be that player. however a lot of people might get angry at recruiting another midget.

[Twodogs]

I'm not concerned its a midget we are recruiting, it's the fact his name is Rioli. All of the 4 or 5 Rioli's recruited to the AFL could play the game, some better than others, so I'm not really worried from a talent perspective. I'm worried that Bruce will make our games unwatchable on TV with his slobbering anf hyperbole.

[stefoid]

I think we need a small forward. You've got McLean, Hamilton & Dale listed there but none of them are lightning quick, highly skilled crumber types. We've never replaced Dahlhaus in the forward line

I agree.

But rather than specifically recruit a small forward, I think we will be better off recruiting a quality mid with speed and have Dal play forward more often. He is pretty good in the midfield, but an elite small forward offensively and defensively.

[Twodogs]

I agree.

But rather than specifically recruit a small forward, I think we will be better off recruiting a quality mid with speed and have Dal play forward more often. He is pretty good in the midfield, but an elite small forward offensively and defensively.


Agree. It's great to play in the midfield but Dal is a good hard working mid along with anot 20 other players. But like you say he is elite on a position that's noturiusly hard to fill.

[Bulldog Joe]

Agree. It's great to play in the midfield but Dal is a good hard working mid along with anot 20 other players. But like you say he is elite on a position that's noturiusly hard to fill.

I don't get the obsession with the small forward role. We have close to the best small forward going round in Tory Dickson.
Others rotate through the midfield and we also get goals from them.

I would say our forward line is in the best shape we have had for a very long time.
If we get the expected improvement from Tom Boyd over the next 2 to 3 years and continued development from Redpath, we will be more than competitive with anyone.

We really need to fix our ruck issues.

[Rocco Jones]

Thing about Dahl types is they don't stay forward for too long as they can do more further up the ground. If we were to find a replacement, he would then be also moved up the ground.

[F'scary]

We have heaps of good small forward options. Dahlhaus, Hunter, Honeychurch, Daniel, McLean, for example.

[Twodogs]

We have heaps of good small forward options. Dahlhaus, Hunter, Honeychurch, Daniel, McLean, for example.

But only on oNe of them is elite at the moment. A couple may become elie (Hunter, Honeychurch as small forwards, McLean as a mid, Daniel as a running defender.

Let's play our players in the positions they are best at. If we really need a small mid then we'd be better getting games into McLean and leaving Dahlhaus up forward to kick goals.

[jeemak]

TD, are you sure Daniel is a running defender?

[1eyedog]

Meant Dale maybe?

[F'scary]

But only on oNe of them is elite at the moment. A couple may become elie (Hunter, Honeychurch as small forwards, McLean as a mid, Daniel as a running defender.

Let's play our players in the positions they are best at. If we really need a small mid then we'd be better getting games into McLean and leaving Dahlhaus up forward to kick goals.

Agree on Dahlhaus 100%, he is an A grader in the midfield or as a small forward with his remarkable ability to get the ball to boot in almost any situation. I reckon the others will all go pretty well as small forwards - whether that's where you want to play them is another matter. Hunter, e.g., gets so many good possessions further up the field, you probably would only play him as a small FP if that was the only spot left. But still, with the competition for midfield spots, any of the others I listed would earn their keep as a smaller FP.

[Twodogs]

TD, are you sure Daniel is a running defender?

For sure. On his highlights reel there is footage of him receiving hand balls in defence and setting off on long runs. I know he was probably playing in the midfield at the time but he looked really comfortable deep in defence with the ball in his hands. Harbrow was recruited as a small forward. I reckon Daniel will end up playing in defence.

[F'scary]

For sure. On his highlights reel there is footage of him receiving hand balls in defence and setting off on long runs. I know he was probably playing in the midfield at the time but he looked really comfortable deep in defence with the ball in his hands. Harbrow was recruited as a small forward. I reckon Daniel will end up playing in defence.

Interesting viewpoint. He certainly is a good little player, it is probably a bit early to call him the best of the smalls we have recruited since Dahlhaus but next season could be the one where this question is settled.

[stefoid]

I don't get the obsession with the small forward role. We have close to the best small forward going round in Tory Dickson.


I think the small forward we are talking about is the crumbing forward who can turn a half chance into a goal and cause panic amongst the defenders with his speed. Dicko is more of a mark and kick forward.

[Twodogs]

I think the small forward we are talking about is the crumbing forward who can turn a half chance into a goal and cause panic amongst the defenders with his speed. Dicko is more of a mark and kick forward.

That's my thoughts on Tory too. I mean the crumber or the guy who knows exactly what spot he can kick a goal from. It's such an important position and really difficult to play well in. Dahl plays well there, he's one of the best small forwards in the AFL.

When we are running out of midfielders then by all means play him in the midfield but while we have enough mids lets let ourselves have the luxury of Dahl up forward.

[Ghost Dog]

Looking forward to the day when all guys can just play the position they are best at.
Little concerned at our lack of bulk overall and the toll it will take injury wise. Could do with a few older rookies.

[soupman]

Why don't people rate Dahlhaus as a midfielder/small forward? He made the AA squad this year playing mostly as a midfielder. It isn't like our forwardline lacks potency when the ball hits the ground. That's when Stringer does his best work, and Crameri, Dickson, Dahlhaus, Bont, Wallis etc. have all shown an ability to be dangerous at ground level.

[GVGjr]

Why don't people rate Dahlhaus as a midfielder/small forward? He made the AA squad this year playing mostly as a midfielder. It isn't like our forwardline lacks potency when the ball hits the ground. That's when Stringer does his best work, and Crameri, Dickson, Dahlhaus, Bont, Wallis etc. have all shown an ability to be dangerous at ground level.

He's a gun player who I think rotates through both areas brilliantly. The defensive pressure he applies in the forward line is right up there with the best.

[soupman]

He's a gun player who I think rotates through both areas brilliantly. The defensive pressure he applies in the forward line is right up there with the best.

Exactly the mix atm is pretty potent and he has had a sensational season. He is having a far greater impact on matches in his current role than he did as a pure forward.

[Mofra]

I think we need a small forward.
Bevo doesn't play specialist small forwards so the point is moot - he's pretty vocal and open about wanting flexibility.

Watch the rotation levels during the second Melbourne game as a case in point - I swear we were on 45 second rotations through most forwardline spots for the entire game.

[bornadog]

Why don't people rate Dahlhaus as a midfielder/small forward? He made the AA squad this year playing mostly as a midfielder. It isn't like our forwardline lacks potency when the ball hits the ground. That's when Stringer does his best work, and Crameri, Dickson, Dahlhaus, Bont, Wallis etc. have all shown an ability to be dangerous at ground level.

Dahl is a great player but his kicking is atrocious and probably the worse kick in our side.

[stefoid]

Why don't people rate Dahlhaus as a midfielder/small forward? He made the AA squad this year playing mostly as a midfielder. It isn't like our forwardline lacks potency when the ball hits the ground. That's when Stringer does his best work, and Crameri, Dickson, Dahlhaus, Bont, Wallis etc. have all shown an ability to be dangerous at ground level.

Hes a pretty good midfielder, but hes an elite crumbing forward, thats what it comes down to. There are plenty of better mids out there than Dal, but not many better crumbing forwards. In a successful Bev-coached team, playing predominantly as a small forward, I reckon he would make the AA team for the next 5 years.

[Bulldog4life]

Dahl is a great player but his kicking is atrocious and probably the worse kick in our side.

I would say his set shots aren't the best but his snaps for goal are not atrocious.

[stefoid]

I would say his set shots aren't the best but his snaps for goal are not atrocious.

His snaps are outstanding

[Remi Moses]

Apparently we only missed on Lobbe because we couldn't get in contact with him.
Wanted a medical, and wouldn't sign unless he did one .
We were willing to give up pick 11 for him:eek:

[Twodogs]

Apparently we only missed on Lobbe because we couldn't get in contact with him.
Wanted a medical, and wouldn't sign unless he did one .
We were willing to give up pick 11 for him:eek:


Thank God we couldn't find him. He's laughing anyway picking up 600 grand to play in the SANFL.

[Remi Moses]

Thank God we couldn't find him. He's laughing anyway picking up 600 grand to play in the SANFL.

I reckon he'll be battling to get a gig by seasons end

[Doc26]

Apparently we only missed on Lobbe because we couldn't get in contact with him.
Wanted a medical, and wouldn't sign unless he did one .
We were willing to give up pick 11 for him:eek:

Yes I just read that off a tweet from AW's Sam McClure.


@sam_mcclure: Matthew Lobbe was going to WB for pick 11 on a 4 yr deal. But Dogs couldn't do a medical because he was in Vietnam. Deal then fell through. Was happy to go to the Dogs to be No. 1 ruckman. Port were happy with pick 11.

IF this is true, I am left wondering why we were so reactive, leaving it to the eleventh hour, and appearing to be disorganised ? It would appear Lobbe was an afterthought having not checked him out earlier. Hopefully we were better than that.

[boydogs]

IF this is true, I am left wondering why we were so reactive, leaving it to the eleventh hour, and appearing to be disorganised ? It would appear Lobbe was an afterthought having not checked him out earlier. Hopefully we were better than that.

He must have been our 3rd or 4th choice if that's all true. I think we were into Martin and maybe Leuenberger before Lobbe. It does look bad but could be a blessing as I don't think Lobbe is much better than Campbell

[Pickenitup]

Scoop Mclure also Said Lake spoke to Beveridge in the hope of playing one more year Bevo was keen but after talking to assistant coaches decided not to.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Scoop Mclure also Said Lake spoke to Beveridge in the hope of playing one more year Bevo was keen but after talking to assistant coaches decided not to.

Interesting.

I actually wouldn't have been against it.

Re: Lobbe, if true, I will eternally be grateful he went to Vietnam, because that would have been an abysmal trade.

[bulldogtragic]

Lobbe for pick 36 next year after an indifferent year I'm predicting. That's about right I'd say if he was happy with us and we with him.