List Management 2015

[The Doctor]

Listed here is our team in positional order and their respective ages as at the start of the 2016 season. In this thread we can discuss what we need to do to improve our list, trade and recruiting ideas & rumours, types of draftees we need etc. The positions are just a guide as some players could easily cross from one group to another.


Key Forwards

Boyd 20, Stringer 21, Redpath 25,


Medium/Small Forwards

Crameri 27, Dickson 28, McLean 20, Hamilton 20, Dale 19,


Ruckmen

Minson 31, Roughead 25, Campbell 24, Goetz,18


Tall Midfielders

Bontempelli 20, Macrae 21, Stevens 24, Jong 22, Dunkley, 18, Williams 18,


Small Midfielders

Liberatore 23, Wallis 23, Picken 29, Dahlhaus 23, Hunter 21, Hrovat 21, C.Smith 22, Honeychurch 21, Prudden 21, Daniel 19,


Key Defenders

Morris 33, Hamling 23, Roberts 22, Z.Cordy 19, Adams, 22, Collins 18


Medium/Small Defenders

Murphy 33, Boyd 33, Wood 26, Johannisen 23, Webb 20, Biggs 24, R.Smith 19*, Suckling 27, Lynch 18, Adcock 30

[The Doctor]

2015 AFL Free Agents

ADELAIDE
Patrick Dangerfield
Richard Douglas
Andy Otten
Brent Reilly
Scott Thompson
Brodie Martin

BRISBANE LIONS
Jed Adcock
Matthew Leuenberger

CARLTON
Dennis Armfield
Andrew Carrazzo
David Ellard
Matthew Kreuzer
Chris Judd

COLLINGWOOD
Brent Macaffer

ESSENDON
Courtenay Dempsey
Brent Stanton
Tom Bellchambers
Dustin Fletcher
Tayte Pears
Jason Winderlich

FREMANTLE
Ryan Crowley
Paul Duffield
Michael Johnson
Luke McPharlin
Matthew Pavlich
Aaron Sandilands

GEELONG
Jimmy Bartel
Corey Enright
Tom Hawkins
James Kelly
Steve Johnson
Andrew Mackie
Dawson Simpson
Mathew Stokes

HAWTHORN
Luke Hodge
Sam Mitchell
Matthew Suckling
Brendan Whitecross

MELBOURNE
Colin Garland
Mark Jamar

NORTH MELBOURNE
Michael Firrito
Nathan Grima
Brent Harvey
Scott McMahon
Drew Petrie
Robbie Tarrant

PORT ADELAIDE
Kane Cornes
Tom Logan (rookie)

RICHMOND
Nathan Foley
Chris Newman
Alex Rance

ST KILDA
Sean Dempster
Sam Fisher
Sam Gilbert
Jack Steven
Adam Schneider (rookie)

SYDNEY SWANS
Adam Goodes
Heath Grundy
Ted Richards

WEST COAST
Sam Butler
Patrick McGinnity
Scott Selwood
Beau Waters

WESTERN BULLDOGS
Matthew Boyd
Jarrad Grant
Dale Morris
Robert Murphy

[Sedat]

Great thread Doc. Isn't Kelly a key defender?

I would like some reinforcements in the ruck/key forward area. Kreuzer is an intriguing player - I really rate his work ethic around the ground, and his forward craft is very natural for a ruckman, but the injury history is hard to ignore. If he passes a medical, I'd be very keen to look at someone like him.

[Happy Days]

Great thread Doc. Isn't Kelly a key defender?

I would like some reinforcements in the ruck/key forward area. Kreuzer is an intriguing player - I really rate his work ethic around the ground, and his forward craft is very natural for a ruckman, but the injury history is hard to ignore. If he passes a medical, I'd be very keen to look at someone like him.

In an ideal world he would be perfect for us wouldn't he?

Unfortunately if he's fit, he'll cost too much, and if he's affordable he won't be fit.

[soupman]

Great thread Doc. Isn't Kelly a key defender?


I think he is slightly undersized for that, plays more as a mid sized defender/mid. His height is deceptive because he's all neck.

[Mofra]

Unfortunately if he's fit, he'll cost too much, and if he's affordable he won't be fit.
Bingo.

I actually think a good forward/ruck is a very hard thing to find, those who are even adequate at it are often maligned. Ty Vickery is out of favour at the moment, with Griffiths in front of him (and I really rate Griffiths). That sort of player would suit our forward structure and he's an adequate ruck.

I really want a genuine second ruck/forward on our list and one more key defender. I think a tall back option of Roughy, genuine CHB, Talia (who is quick and can take the guys Morris does now) would be an ideal framework to work from.

[1eyedog]

Bingo.

I actually think a good forward/ruck is a very hard thing to find, those who are even adequate at it are often maligned. Ty Vickery is out of favour at the moment, with Griffiths in front of him (and I really rate Griffiths). That sort of player would suit our forward structure and he's an adequate ruck.

I really want a genuine second ruck/forward on our list and one more key defender. I think a tall back option of Roughy, genuine CHB, Talia (who is quick and can take the guys Morris does now) would be an ideal framework to work from.

I hate Vickery but he's big, aggressive, can take a mark and is a wonderful long kick. He is a better realistic CHF option than anyone I can see and with our young stars demanding more and more money we need to consider the best option moving forward. Vickery is ok and would be well priced. He's certainly better than Redpath or Cordy forward and I think we really need to be looking at another key forward.

[Sedat]

Unfortunately if he's fit, he'll cost too much, and if he's affordable he won't be fit.
Not necessarily. Carlton are stretched with their salary cap - they would be reluctant to offer too much coin to him after the Dale Thomas fiasco.

[Happy Days]

Not necessarily. Carlton are stretched with their salary cap - they would be reluctant to offer too much coin to him after the Dale Thomas fiasco.

The gift that keeps on giving; Eddie Betts got absolutely smashed on the weekend and still kicked 4 goals!

[Mofra]

The gift that keeps on giving; Eddie Betts got absolutely smashed on the weekend and still kicked 4 goals!
And he's on $600k to $650k pa to kick largely junktime goals.

[Greystache]

Great thread Doc. Isn't Kelly a key defender?

I would like some reinforcements in the ruck/key forward area. Kreuzer is an intriguing player - I really rate his work ethic around the ground, and his forward craft is very natural for a ruckman, but the injury history is hard to ignore. If he passes a medical, I'd be very keen to look at someone like him.

If he's 191cm I wouldn't mind selling real estate to the bloke who measured him. In the flesh he looks about the same size as Matthew Boyd.

Looking at the OP it's an incredibly young list we have at the moment. While we need to balance the salary cap, age wise we're in prime position to sign a 25 year old FA, not that too many are jumping off the page from that list mind you.

[Mantis]

Looking at the OP it's an incredibly young list we have at the moment. While we need to balance the salary cap, age wise we're in prime position to sign a 25 year old FA, not that too many are jumping off the page from that list mind you.

Agree with that, it's a pretty shoddy list.. What about someone like Tarrant or Grima from North? They have quite a few talls and when they are at full strength there will be a couple who won't be in their best 22.

[Greystache]

Agree with that, it's a pretty shoddy list.. What about someone like Tarrant or Grima from North? They have quite a few talls and when they are at full strength there will be a couple who won't be in their best 22.

It lacks quality in the 24-27 age bracket no question, but it's pretty well balanced in terms of positional options and of players who should make it vs players who might make it. Another decent cut at years end to players clogging up space and we'll be on pretty good track.

Don't fancy Grima, he's undersized and injury prone, but don't mind the idea of Tarrant. He's got big upside and shouldn't cost much given his injury history, unless Norf are just desperate to keep him.

[Axe Man]

Hopefully the sub rule will be axed for next season which will lessen the need for a forward/ruck. Don't get me wrong - it would still be invaluable to have a Ryder type on the list, but at least reverting to a standard 4 man interchange should make it easier to play 2 legitimate ruckmen if desired.

[The Doctor]

Uncontracted Players

GWS

Adam Treloar
Will Hoskin-Elliott
Stephen Coniglio
Dylan Shiel

[dog town]

I think we need to be careful we don't go too early and think we are in our window before we are. We need to keep building our list up for when we are actually going to be challenging. If it costs us a few wins in the next two years then so be it. We are in a position where we don't have to snatch at anything. Just be patient and keep adding good kids, pool our resources until a big move presents itself. I would prefer to trade and get free agents to extend our run once we reach the top rather than use it to get there quicker.

Never been overly worried about ruck stocks. Lots of clubs floating around with recycled ruckmen. I think with the right home work you can get one fairly cheap if you get desperate at the end of the season. Wouldn't want to give up too much before we can see exactly where we are in terms of the premiership pecking order in the next few years.

[Mofra]

Uncontracted Players

GWS

Adam Treloar
Will Hoskin-Elliott
Stephen Coniglio
Dylan Shiel
Many rumours floating around about Shiel and Richmond.

[ledge]

Hoskin-Elliott, Nth Sunshine boy, believe his brother still plays there and from rumours I heard he was very homesick early on, I would grab him in a heart beat.

[ledge]

I think we are safe with our free agents , too old and the others aren't high demand.

[Go_Dogs]

I think we need to be careful we don't go too early and think we are in our window before we are. We need to keep building our list up for when we are actually going to be challenging. If it costs us a few wins in the next two years then so be it. We are in a position where we don't have to snatch at anything. Just be patient and keep adding good kids, pool our resources until a big move presents itself. I would prefer to trade and get free agents to extend our run once we reach the top rather than use it to get there quicker.

It's an interesting one, isn't it?

I look at a side like Hawthorn that first played finals in their current 'reign' in 2007 - added Stuart Dew and won their first premiership the next year, much earlier than many had thought they would. By good drafting, trading and utilising FA they have spent the last 8 years being contenders winning 3 flags to date, with at least one more looking likely.

The point I guess I'm making is any opportunity you have to improve your list, is one worth considering. It can't be to the complete disregard of the future, which is perhaps something we have been guilty of in the past, certainly some other clubs like St Kilda have been - however to rule it out is something I can't agree with.

I also noted an article about Ken Hinkley in the paper over the weekend, where it was mentioned the discussion he had post PF-loss with his players and coaching staff last year. It referred to the huge effort required to get themselves back into a preliminary final, let alone into a grand final - the disappointment of falling at that hurdle by 3 points - regardless of being the underdog, and a younger side. When the opportunities present, you have to take them.

The more I think about the modern game, the less convinced I am a premiership window exists - sure when you're in a re-build like St Kilda, and perhaps where Carlton will be heading, you are not going to contend. Once you have build the cornerstones of a list, and those players have played a few games, you can start to challenge again. If you have a bit of luck, win a few close ones, have a good run with injuries etc, suddenly you can be playing in the finals, and giving yourself an opportunity to pinch a flag.

The group we have at the moment, to me at least, has those cornerstones now. We have a number of players who can rotate through the middle, a good blend of smart players, tall, strong, quick, inside, outside - we can just about do it all through there. We have key defenders who are looking like long term players, and a blend of speed, creativity and versatility through the flanks. Our forward line also looks strong, with a key forward with Boyd's potential, Stringer, Crameri and again, a number of players who can rotate through the flanks and pockets. Given the age of our group, I think we have a good opportunity to be competitive for a number of years - so identifying the astute trades and FA opportunities is where we need to make it count - be it to add depth, exploit a main competitors weakness or add a genuinely talented player of the right age profile.

I think we are starting to realise, whilst we remain in exploration mode as Bevo has said, we are perhaps closer than most of us had thought not too long ago. We'll continue to improve no doubt, but we need to have our eyes open for opportunities so we can move quickly if they present.

I'm sick of waiting, I'm impatient and greedy - I want a flag and I see no reason why it can't become our ambition from 2016 onwards.

[G-Mo77]

Uncontracted Players

GWS

Adam Treloar
Will Hoskin-Elliott
Stephen Coniglio
Dylan Shiel

I hope every one of them leave that dump!

[comrade]

How have GWS allowed those 4 to come out of contract all at once?

I would do inappropriate things to get Treloar to the Dogs. Tough and skilful, he's a rich man's Callan Ward.

I'm probably under the influence of his final round decimation of us, but WHE would add plenty to our side with his running ability and goal sense.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't mind the idea of raiding GWS or GCS for young talent. WHE would be a dream, but if we have a pick around 10 I'm open to trading or down grading to a high second rounder for the right player.

I like the idea of a new full back and having Roughy able to play any role, which the opposition or the game dictate. Rance would be a great get but his salary would be high on the open market. Carlisle the same, someone like May might be cheaper. But the flexibility for the team would be a great asset in my mind.

The ruck area is such an opportunity for further and fast improvement. If Will isn't our man then we have to look at trading him while he has any value, but if he is our best then we keep him. I can't see Will, Cordy & Campbell on the list at the years end. I think we need to find the best value option in terms of trade and cost. Luenberger is a FA, but again salary might be an issue. We need a mature ruck and one or two developing sorts across the lists.

I could live with a Hawthorn style aggressive trade period. Say pick 10 for a player and pick 20. Then 20 and 28 for another player. Add in a free agent and we've got 3 good players in next year.

Morris, Bob, Picken & Boyd all look the goods right now. But the plan above needs more salary cap space and you would hope that by years end our pups have perhaps one or two guys retiring.

The rookie list probably remains unchanged. Perhaps Goodes leaves and a Prudden type rookied. No elevations at the moment, although if Smith burns it up if we have a late pick he might be a better option.

Fuller looks too far back and an obvious at risk type.

I wouldn't bank on our only father son in Darcy Macpherson being nominated by us.

So a ruckman, senior player and Fuller is the 3 mandatory changes. 3 draft picks at 50, 70 and 90 (RU?). But a three player trade period needs three more spots. So the the heat goes on Prudden, a second older player and one more.

In all I think this could be shaping as Macca's biggest off season and I'm hoping we have the courage to go hard.

[The Doctor]

I don't mind the idea of raiding GWS or GCS for young talent. WHE would be a dream, but if we have a pick around 10 I'm open to trading or down grading to a high second rounder for the right player.



I'm all for raiding the expansion clubs. GWS in particular. Obviously it has to be sensible but getting another young gun from them will help weaken a likely future rival. I think WHE or Shiel would be perfect for us and would be worth looking into. The one I'd love to get off them is Cam Macarthy. Not sure when he comes off contract though.



The ruck area is such an opportunity for further and fast improvement. If Will isn't our man then we have to look at trading him while he has any value, but if he is our best then we keep him. I can't see Will, Cordy & Campbell on the list at the years end. I think we need to find the best value option in terms of trade and cost. Luenberger is a FA, but again salary might be an issue. We need a mature ruck and one or two developing sorts across the lists.



The ruck is something we must address. I cant see all 3 current ruckmen on our list next year. I feel certain 1 of them will move on. Minson looks to be in trouble. Perhaps he might be the one to go as the Dogs continue to clear out the old guard? but whichever way I look at it I don't see a top line ruckman on our list going forward.

I would definately be looking at Leuenberger. Injuries aside he could be one of the best in the league. His stocks would be low at the moment and maybe a change of scenery might do him good, a la Higgins. He wouldn't cost us anything as he's a free agent.

We must draft a young ruckman this year for the future.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm all for raiding the expansion clubs. GWS in particular. Obviously it has to be sensible but getting another young gun from them will help weaken a likely future rival. I think WHE or Shiel would be perfect for us and would be worth looking into. The one I'd love to get off them is Cam Macarthy. Not sure when he comes off contract though.



The ruck is something we must address. I cant see all 3 current ruckmen on our list next year. I feel certain 1 of them will move on. Minson looks to be in trouble. Perhaps he might be the one to go as the Dogs continue to clear out the old guard? but whichever way I look at it I don't see a top line ruckman on our list going forward.

I would definately be looking at Leuenberger. Injuries aside he could be one of the best in the league. His stocks would be low at the moment and maybe a change of scenery might do him good, a la Higgins. He wouldn't cost us anything as he's a free agent.

We must draft a young ruckman this year for the future.

When you think about the above, add in Libba, Wally another two kids stepping up and another top line kid from an expansion club, a mature FB/CHB and a close to top line ruckman and bloody hell it's exciting. The fact that Luenberger and Rance could come for salary only (FA) and that shued trading could net us the other two means it's not overly far fetched.

A new full back could mean Roughy could even play second ruck from defence, as well as offer flexibility. A close to top line ruckman clearly improves the side and a 21-22yo gun running type adds to our war chest. Once we can spare 'Bonts' down forward for more time the need for a gun 193cm natural player is reduced and another tall or someone on the list is enough right now.

I'm usually a go to the draft type but I think the bell curve (only early on I know) means shrew trade and FA offers even more. I show to the jury exhibit A, being Port Adelaide last two off seasons: Jared Polec, Matt White and Pat Ryder.

[stefoid]

Ill reiterate that Carlisle is uncontracted next year. He goes to CHB and Rough goes wherever we need him to.

[comrade]

Ill reiterate that Carlisle is uncontracted next year. He goes to CHB and Rough goes wherever we need him to.

Get it done, bulldogtragic!

[bulldogtragic]

Get it done, bulldogtragic!

Leave it with me.

[boydogs]

It lacks quality in the 24-27 age bracket no question, but it's pretty well balanced in terms of positional options and of players who should make it vs players who might make it. Another decent cut at years end to players clogging up space and we'll be on pretty good track.

I think Mantis meant the free agent list

[azabob]

Any interest in Lachie Henderson and Jamie Elliott? Both remain un-contracted.

Henderson could well be worth a look considering his ability to play back and forward.

Elliot is a quality footballer, full stop.

[Webby]

Any interest in Lachie Henderson and Jamie Elliott? Both remain un-contracted.

Henderson could well be worth a look considering his ability to play back and forward.

Elliot is a quality footballer, full stop.

I was actually thinking about Henderson on the weekend. If Carlton are serious about rebuilding, they should either trade or take compo for a valuable 27+ yo commodity. He'd be very welcome at the Kennel!

[Ozza]

I don't want to talk about us getting WHE.......the thought gets me far too excited.

[Sedat]

Bit of a left field one. Alex Keath has just lost his Vic Bushrangers contract and his cricket career is very much uncertain. He was one of the elite U18's in the country and was chosen in the first batch of GC Suns pre-draft recruits - he declined as he chose to pursue a cricket instead. He's only 23yo and could be rookied by any club as their last rookie selection as he's not been on an AFL list for the last 3 years. Worth an enquiry? I'll bow to the regular U18 watchers to give their perspectives on his football ability. He's obviously coming from a long way back as he has been out of the footy system for over 4 years

[bornadog]

Bit of a left field one. Alex Keath has just lost his Vic Bushrangers contract and his cricket career is very much uncertain. He was one of the elite U18's in the country and was chosen in the first batch of GC Suns pre-draft recruits - he declined as he chose to pursue a cricket instead. He's only 23yo and could be rookied by any club as their last rookie selection as he's not been on an AFL list for the last 3 years. Worth an enquiry? I'll bow to the regular U18 watchers to give their perspectives on his football ability. He's obviously coming from a long way back as he has been out of the footy system for over 4 years

From this (http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/yes-no-wait-alex-keath-chooses-the-longer-road-of-cricket-over-football-20141115-11n700.html)article last year:


As recently as this year, Keath's management has fielded calls from AFL recruiters sounding out his interest in jumping back over the fence. They remember his draft testing results, still have the tapes of his underage football, dream of putting meat on his bones.

As one says, "If Alex Keath said tomorrow, 'I'm going to retire from cricket', clubs would draft him.".

[The Doctor]

I was actually thinking about Henderson on the weekend. If Carlton are serious about rebuilding, they should either trade or take compo for a valuable 27+ yo commodity. He'd be very welcome at the Kennel!

I wouldn't trade for him as it would cost us a first round pick or one of the young guns and we would only get 4-5 years service. I think we would have to be in genuine premiership contention to consider that kind of trade.

There are other options such as Rance as a free agent or Carlisle who is a couple of years younger and more worthy of a first rounder in my view. I'd imagine all 3 would command similar coin.

[Go_Dogs]

Henderson is 25, not 27, for the record.

[Bulldog Joe]

Looking at how we are travelling, I'm not sure we need to be concerned too much with trade.

I think we perhaps need a mobile ruckman that can take marks around the ground and as the year unfolds we should know if Cordy or Campbell are making any progress in that area.

The obvious player to trade out is Minson, but his currency may have gone. It would seem unlikely that he can be a genuine force and the game may just have gone past his skill set.

There is little point bringing in anyone new as an experienced player if they do not immediately improve the team.

While someone like Rance would be worthwhile depending on price, we also need to have new draftees coming through each year and we also need to continue with the group we have.

There may be some issues with retaining them all if they do not receive sufficient opportunity.

[Happy Days]

Bit of a left field one. Alex Keath has just lost his Vic Bushrangers contract and his cricket career is very much uncertain. He was one of the elite U18's in the country and was chosen in the first batch of GC Suns pre-draft recruits - he declined as he chose to pursue a cricket instead. He's only 23yo and could be rookied by any club as their last rookie selection as he's not been on an AFL list for the last 3 years. Worth an enquiry? I'll bow to the regular U18 watchers to give their perspectives on his football ability. He's obviously coming from a long way back as he has been out of the footy system for over 4 years

Like this thinking; we could have another one under our noses at Footscray in Meyrick Buchanan.

Has picking cricket over footy ever worked for anyone? Can think of a few going the other way.

[1eyedog]

Like this thinking; we could have another one under our noses at Footscray in Meyrick Buchanan.

Has picking cricket over footy ever worked for anyone? Can think of a few going the other way.

Warne would be one, played St. Kilda Under 19s and Reserves, was de-listed, considered other opportunities then focused on cricket, Simon O'Donnell is the other that comes to mind straight away. Handy footballer as was his old man.

[Maddog37]

Max Walker too.

[Bulldog Joe]

Like this thinking; we could have another one under our noses at Footscray in Meyrick Buchanan.

Has picking cricket over footy ever worked for anyone? Can think of a few going the other way.

Jamie Cox had a pretty good cricket career without playing a test.

Was drafted by Essendon but elected to go to the cricket academy instead.

[Webby]

Keith Miller did okay..!

Interestingly, Miller formed the best opening bowling combination in Australian Test cricket history with Ray Lindwall.

Miller was a footballer with St Kilda and Lindwall played in the 1949 NSWRL grand final with St George.
Both made Australia's Test Team of the Century.

So, yeah, it's been done!

[Greystache]

Mitch Marsh would be front and centre I'd think at the moment.

[comrade]

Have some mates that are convinced Carlisle is heading our way based on whispers going around.

Disclaimer: it may be they read another forum and are regurgitating rumours or it's pure wishful thinking. Or both!

[Happy Days]

So there's this now;

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-clubs-keen-to-speak-to-discarded-cricketer-alex-keath-20150429-1mwbdq.html

G'day if you're reading Emma.

[bulldogtragic]

So there's this now;

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-clubs-keen-to-speak-to-discarded-cricketer-alex-keath-20150429-1mwbdq.html

G'day if you're reading Emma.

This is like when The Coondog started a thread about how often we were hitting the post (6 years ago?) and it became topical in the media. Maybe the mods could trademark our posts and we could be cited officially as the source...

[Axe Man]

Keath committed to cricket over footy (http://www.cricket.com.au/news/alex-keath-continue-pursue-cricket-over-afl-aussie-rules-victoria/2015-04-30)

Allrounder dumped by Victoria but said to be determined to return to top level

Cut from Victoria’s 2015-16 contract list, multi-talented 23-year-old Alex Keath is said to be nonetheless determined to pursue his cricket dreams, despite reported overtures from a host of Australian Football League (AFL) clubs.

Keath debuted in first-class cricket in December 2010, having chosen the summer sport as a career path over an offer from the then fledgling AFL club Gold Coast Suns.

Fairfax today reported that up to 14 AFL clubs have kept in some form of contact with the 196cm allrounder, with many of those expected to ramp up interest in the coming weeks.

But Cricket Victoria operations manager Shaun Graf said Keath, who is currently playing league cricket in the UK, isn’t about to switch allegiances.

“My discussions with Alex strongly suggest he will remain dedicated to his cricketing dream,” Graf told News Ltd.

“He is a single-minded young man who wants to make it in cricket.

“He is the sort of kid you would expect to make a second coming and everyone who knows him hopes that is the case because he is such a good lad.”

Keath was also a member of the Melbourne Stars BBL|04 squad, appearing twice in the starting XI in January, and while the perennial semi-finalists have added Australia captain Michael Clarke to their books for next season, they are unlikely to finalise a squad until late November, leaving his fate in that form of the game up in the air at this stage.

The allrounder has played seven first-class matches, 16 List A matches and five Twenty20 matches in what has been a stop-start career to date.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Jamie Cox had a pretty good cricket career without playing a test.

Was drafted by Essendon but elected to go to the cricket academy instead.
Similarly Jamie Siddons was with the Swans but chose cricket and had a very good first class level career, and played a solitary one-dayer for Australia.

[westdog54]

This is like when The Coondog started a thread about how often we were hitting the post (6 years ago?) and it became topical in the media. Maybe the mods could trademark our posts and we could be cited officially as the source...

A few years ago, when Terry was still coaching at Tigerland, I started a thread entitled "Top 10 messages on Terry Wallace's answering machine" on the designated "trolling" board.

Not only did it get some hilarious responses, but Mark Robinson ended up quoting it in a column about the man. The thread just about went into meltdown.

[The Doctor]

Going by this we have enquired about Shiel from GWS (Reference; every Vic club has enquired about his availability)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/victorian-clubs-are-circling-out-of-contract-former-victorian-and-gws-giants-midfielder-dylan-shiel/story-fnp04d70-1227329066169

[bornadog]

Going by this we have enquired about Shiel from GWS (Reference; every Vic club has enquired about his availability)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/victorian-clubs-are-circling-out-of-contract-former-victorian-and-gws-giants-midfielder-dylan-shiel/story-fnp04d70-1227329066169

What we have to is secure our young guns because no doubt some of them will be offered massive contracts to leave (Ward says hello $$)

[Mofra]

What we have to is secure our young guns because no doubt some of them will be offered massive contracts to leave (Ward says hello $$)
Who is left to sign? Macrae, Stringer, Wood, Roughy, Dal all signed in the last month.

Bonti is signed to 2016 so extending his contract would be the big one for me. Beyond that we actually have plenty of cap space despite media bleating.

[bulldogtragic]

I was reading with the new TV rights deal, in the range its expected to sell for, there could be up to a 30% rise in the salary cap. The cap is around 9 million, so an extra 2.7 million in the kitty. Plus we have an extra 5% to make up plus 4 well paid players nearing retirement... = Don't worry too much about our spending ability if they're good players.

[Happy Days]

I was reading with the new TV rights deal, in the range its expected to sell for, there could be up to a 30% rise in the salary cap. The cap is around 9 million, so an extra 2.7 million in the kitty. Plus we have an extra 5% to make up plus 4 well paid players nearing retirement... = Don't worry too much about our spending ability if they're good players.

Yep. Always was going up, it's why we're SUPER GENIUSES for the Tom Boyd deal.

All anyone had to do was look at American sports (which is apparently the precursor to anything that happens in the AFL now) and see how commonplace it is for mega stars to sign contracts designed to expire right as the TV deals do.

[bornadog]

Who is left to sign? Macrae, Stringer, Wood, Roughy, Dal all signed in the last month.

Bonti is signed to 2016 so extending his contract would be the big one for me. Beyond that we actually have plenty of cap space despite media bleating.

We know contract don't mean much these days.

What is there to stop Carlton throwing $10 million at Bonti or Stringer and they saying they want to go.

List management is more than just dollars but also creating a good working environment, a successful environment and mateship. I guess with our young team, they hopefully will all stick together.

[Dry Rot]

Who is left to sign?

Talia

[Go_Dogs]

Talia

I was reading the Advertiser yesterday and there was an article about Daniel. He stated it was a dream of his to play AFL alongside his brother, albeit saying it seemed unlikely to happen.

Maybe we're planning on waiting till seasons end with Michael so we can unveil Daniel at the same time? ;)

[ledge]

Don't forget we have an extra 600,000 next year due to paying Griffens wage at GWS.

[KT31]

Don't forget we have an extra 600,000 next year due to paying Griffens wage at GWS.

Memory fails me but are we also contributing to a fraction of Cooneys ?

[Doc26]

I was reading the Advertiser yesterday and there was an article about Daniel. He stated it was a dream of his to play AFL alongside his brother, albeit saying it seemed unlikely to happen.

Maybe we're planning on waiting till seasons end with Michael so we can unveil Daniel at the same time? ;)


Thanks for tip on the article GD.

Here's a link to it.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/will-the-talia-brothers-ever-play-afl-football-as-teammates/story-fnia3xzy-1227328416563

[ledge]

Thanks for tip on the article GD.

Here's a link to it.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/will-the-talia-brothers-ever-play-afl-football-as-teammates/story-fnia3xzy-1227328416563

Only way they will play alongside each other is if his brother comes to
us or one of them turns into a FF or CHF.
Hopefully after last weeks game he sees the Crows as soft And makes a request to come to us with our hard nosed winning culture :-)

[bulldogtragic]

Rance looks risky based on these stories. The ruck is such an underperformance area that I think we need to go hard at Luenberger now as a free agent target. A big improvement is there for the taking.

The trade table may have a few tall defenders with any luck. Then fishing at expansion clubs especially if our first pick is over pick 10 trading down to high second rounder for a good player.

[boydogs]

The trade table may have a few tall defenders with any luck

I thought Fletcher Roberts was good today, which is a good sign for our KPD stocks

[lemmon]

Rance looks risky based on these stories. The ruck is such an underperformance area that I think we need to go hard at Luenberger now as a free agent target. A big improvement is there for the taking.

The trade table may have a few tall defenders with any luck. Then fishing at expansion clubs especially if our first pick is over pick 10 trading down to high second rounder for a good player.

Luenberger is an interesting one, is he actually that good? He wins the hit outs but really does lumber after that, Billy Longer has been exceptional out of his shadow and even Stefan Martin has really grown past him. I've brought up Kreuzer in another thread but put him in the same boat. High draft picks with some good AFL form but it really is sporadic to warrant a big pay check. I am in the grab a ruckman camp but I think most success has come from grabbing a guy who has been overlooked and banging down the door in the seconds at another club eg Jacobs

[comrade]

Darcy Gardiner, anyone?

[Drunken Bum]

Cruiser and Looneyburger are both free agents yeah? Would we really need to offer them that much? While talented they have both been injury prone and are playing for some very ordinary teams that are going nowhere fast, i would think we'd be a pretty attractive proposition for either as both are youngish enough to be a big part of what could be a very special team and barring injury would walk into our best 22. I'd definitely be in their ear and put a games played incentive based contract in front of them so long as they passed a medical.

[Greystache]

I'm hoping to hear in the next few weeks we've signed Talia for another 3 years and have given Webb an extension. Come on JMac.

[Go_Dogs]

I'm hoping to hear in the next few weeks we've signed Talia for another 3 years and have given Webb an extension. Come on JMac.

Yep, sort it out JMac.

Anyone else who should be on that priority list?

[azabob]

Yep, sort it out JMac.

Anyone else who should be on that priority list?

Most have been signed or had their contract extended from memory.

What is Honeychurch's contract status? I can't recall him extending his agreement like the other young players.

[The Underdog]

Don't forget we have an extra 600,000 next year due to paying Griffens wage at GWS.

Pretty sure most of that will be heading into T Boyd's pocket. He gets a decent raise in pay after this year I've heard

[bulldogtragic]

Cruiser and Looneyburger are both free agents yeah? Would we really need to offer them that much? While talented they have both been injury prone and are playing for some very ordinary teams that are going nowhere fast, i would think we'd be a pretty attractive proposition for either as both are youngish enough to be a big part of what could be a very special team and barring injury would walk into our best 22. I'd definitely be in their ear and put a games played incentive based contract in front of them so long as they passed a medical.

This. Carlton and Brisbane would probably want the FA compo over sticking with them if they got a second round pick which would be pick 19 or 20. To get that compensation my guess the contract needs to be around 3 years $450,00 or 4 years at $400,000.

Looking at our near empty cupboard labeled 'ruckman'. I could live with a contract like that if they pass medicals and interviews with Bevo - especially not trading away picks or players.

[chef]

I thought Fletcher Roberts was good today, which is a good sign for our KPD stocks

Yep, Fletcher, Roughead, Talia and maybe Hamling, I don't think KPD is a major concern ATM.

We need to go hard at a good ruckman entering his prime.

[LostDoggy]

What about Charlie Dixon?

Out of contract at the end of this year. Has had some injury concerns. But showed on the weekend he is a quality player. Would be a great option for that second ruck roll.

[bulldogtragic]

If Brisbane, GCS and Calton keep up this rubbish, then I reckon like our last preseason there is a chance to raid them.

Daniel Rich, Luenberger, May or Dixon, Henderson, Kruezer or any kids we like. Any takers of these of others?

[comrade]

If Brisbane, GCS and Calton keep up this rubbish, then I reckon like our last preseason there is a chance to raid them.

Daniel Rich, Luenberger, May or Dixon, Henderson, Kruezer or any kids we like. Any takers of these of others?

Dixon would certainly fit our structure nicely. Between him, Roughy and Boyd, we'd be able to match up against most ruck line ups and certainly wouldn't lose anything around the ground.

[Bulldog Joe]

Dixon would certainly fit our structure nicely. Between him, Roughy and Boyd, we'd be able to match up against most ruck line ups and certainly wouldn't lose anything around the ground.

Dixon is the one I would like.

[Axe Man]

Dixon seems to have some potential attitude/behavioral issues (but then so do half the Suns list apparently).

Supposedly came back from the off season overweight and also possibly broke the booze ban that 3 of his teammates have been suspended for.

Perhaps a change of scenery might straighten out some of these Gold Coast wannabee rockstars.

[1eyedog]

What would we have to give up to get the Suns to play ball with us?

[boydogs]

What would we have to give up to get the Suns to play ball with us?

To Eade & Clayton, Justin Sherman maybe?

[Axe Man]

What would we have to give up to get the Suns to play ball with us?

Jarrad Grant - Clayton may see the chance to turn him around and avoid that swim he promised!

[Greystache]

To Eade & Clayton, Justin Sherman maybe?

Or at least just a skinny outside player with a nice kick who can play off half back and won't defend.

[Twodogs]

Or at least just a skinny outside player with a nice kick who can play off half back and won't defend.


Sounds a bit like me.

[Mantis]

Or at least just a skinny outside player with a nice kick who can play off half back and won't defend.

Where is Jordan McMahon these days?

[Bulldog Joe]

Or at least just a skinny outside player with a nice kick who can play off half back and won't defend.

So we should have kept Everitt to package with Higgins and J Grant just for this trade.

[Greystache]

Where is Jordan McMahon these days?

I think there's a number of people and organisations asking this question.

[Greystache]

So we should have kept Everitt to package with Higgins and J Grant just for this trade.

Or trade them to Richmond for a first round draft pick.

[Sedat]

Actually Dalrymple is almost the bipolar opposite of Scott Clayton - screwed up his first effort but has barely put a foot wrong since, whereas Clayton absolutely nailed his first draft and pretty much screwed most others up thereafter.

[bornadog]

Actually Dalrymple is almost the bipolar opposite of Scott Clayton - screwed up his first effort but has barely put a foot wrong since, whereas Clayton absolutely nailed his first draft and pretty much screwed most others up thereafter.

So guys like Brownlow medallist, All Australians were a miss.??? Really.

We go over this time and time again on this forum, but we won't all agree. Yes plenty of misses but also plenty of top footballers in his time with us.

Dalrmple hasn't got everything right to date, but that is the nature of recruiting. I really question Pearce, Lower, Goodes, Fuller, Young, Prudden,(could still work) Schofield, Skinner, Moles, Hooper, Austin, Markovic, and Mulligan.

Excellent pickups in the last few years, but helps when you have picks 4, 5 or 6 and those years would have been hard to miss a good player. Yes I know Walsh didn't make it and he was a top 4/ 5. So what, so was Howard.

[Mofra]

Excellent pickups in the last few years, but helps when you have picks 4, 5 or 6 and those years would have been hard to miss a good player. Yes I know Walsh didn't make it and he was a top 4/ 5. So what, so was Howard.
Howard was a pick in the teens, made before Dalrymple was a full time recruiter (he was working part time that year!)

Not impossible to miss a good player considering I'd argue that Macrae & Stringer are outperforming picks taken before them and Bonti at pick 4 was seen as a reach but he's so far the best of his class.
Dahl & Jong as rookie picks are a big tick IMO and we've already got a kid from last year playing senior football.

I'm pretty happy with Dalrymple's efforts since coming on board full time.

[bornadog]

Howard was a pick in the teens, made before Dalrymple was a full time recruiter (he was working part time that year!)

Not impossible to miss a good player considering I'd argue that Macrae & Stringer are outperforming picks taken before them and Bonti at pick 4 was seen as a reach but he's so far the best of his class.
Dahl & Jong as rookie picks are a big tick IMO and we've already got a kid from last year playing senior football.

I'm pretty happy with Dalrymple's efforts since coming on board full time.

I am too, I don't like broad statements that after the 1999 draft, Clayton screwed up.

[Greystache]

So guys like Brownlow medallist, All Australians were a miss.??? Really.

We go over this time and time again on this forum, but we won't all agree. Yes plenty of misses but also plenty of top footballers in his time with us.

Dalrmple hasn't got everything right to date, but that is the nature of recruiting. I really question Pearce, Lower, Goodes, Fuller, Young, Prudden,(could still work) Schofield, Skinner, Moles, Hooper, Austin, Markovic, and Mulligan.

Excellent pickups in the last few years, but helps when you have picks 4, 5 or 6 and those years would have been hard to miss a good player. Yes I know Walsh didn't make it and he was a top 4/ 5. So what, so was Howard.

Huh?

Young and Lower were trades, Mulligan was drafted by Clayton, Austin, Hooper, Moles, Goodes were all rookies. Prudden and Pearce were drafted 3 years ago and are still on the list, and Fuller is 5 games into his second season.

The Clayton/Eade combo barely picked a player between 2005 and 2008 that's still on the list, nothing can come close to that level of ineptitude. Dalrymple should have a statue erected in his honour compared to what went before him.

Lynch, Stack, Baird, West, Davidson, O'shea, Everitt, Hughes, Pask, Reid, Boumann, O'Keefe, Mulligan, White, Shaw.. The hits were never ending!

[jeemak]

I'm really looking forward to this being settled once and for all now that it's flared up again. :)

[bornadog]

I'm really looking forward to this being settled once and for all now that it's flared up again. :)

Actually I am sick of it.

[Axe Man]

Actually Dalrymple is almost the bipolar opposite of Scott Clayton - screwed up his first effort but has barely put a foot wrong since, whereas Clayton absolutely nailed his first draft and pretty much screwed most others up thereafter.

Bipolar? So I assume bad Simon was responsible for the 2009 draft and good Simon has been with us ever since?;)

[stefoid]

I reckon SD's drafting is improving.

I think his last draft might crack it for 4 out of 6 players being decent, not counting Zaine as a F/S.

[Remi Moses]

I am too, I don't like broad statements that after the 1999 draft, Clayton screwed up.

So your first round picks which are a necessity for success like McMahon Power Walsh Grant Everitt cost us dearly.
That cannot be debated
Have a look at GC where he had the keys to a Lamborghini, and yet he's driven it into the surf on the golden strip!
Light bodied players who play on their own terms

[Remi Moses]

Huh?

Young and Lower were trades, Mulligan was drafted by Clayton, Austin, Hooper, Moles, Goodes were all rookies. Prudden and Pearce were drafted 3 years ago and are still on the list, and Fuller is 5 games into his second season.

The Clayton/Eade combo barely picked a player between 2005 and 2008 that's still on the list, nothing can come close to that level of ineptitude. Dalrymple should have a statue erected in his honour compared to what went before him.

Lynch, Stack, Baird, West, Davidson, O'shea, Everitt, Hughes, Pask, Reid, Boumann, O'Keefe, Mulligan, White, Shaw.. The hits were never ending!

Massively overrated as a recruiter, and how many players had he recruited with attitude, and work ethic issues ?

[Greystache]

Massively overrated as a recruiter, and how many players had he recruited with attitude, and work ethic issues ?

And that's my biggest gripe, there was no alignment between recruiter and coach. The recruiter had a fetish for players the coach didn't want, yet they insisted each others roles were separate. McCartney came in and took responsibility for players recruited, he watched them, he interviewed them, and if they failed it was on him, but he wouldn't palm off responsibility as being someone else's problem.

Say what you like about McCartney but he turned around what was a dysfunctional recruitment framework.

[KT31]

Massively overrated as a recruiter, and how many players had he recruited with attitude, and work ethic issues ?

Agree Remi, I was very happy when he finally left the club.
1. He would not be speculative recruiting and taking risks with our list anymore
2.He ( as proven more than once) would do the right thing by us and stuff up another clubs list.

[The Doctor]

Thanks Fellas, can we sign off on Mr Clayton and the previous regime and focus on the present?

[bornadog]

Thanks Fellas, can we sign off on Mr Clayton and the previous regime and focus on the present?

Agree. The past is the past.

[boydogs]

Thanks Fellas, can we sign off on Mr Clayton and the previous regime and focus on the present?

It's too early, one of my top few prospects for delisting is currently our starting ruck, we need to wait and see what works and what doesn't with Bevo before we can come to any conclusions

We could end the year with Campbell, Redpath, Biggs, Roberts, Darley & Hamling in the starting 18, or they could be on the chopping block

[Mofra]

Have a look at GC where he had the keys to a Lamborghini, and yet he's driven it into the surf on the golden strip!
Light bodied players who play on their own terms
Their best performed players have been a once in a generation talent (cruelled by injury) Jaeger O'Meara and a hardworking inside mid in the Libba/Wallis mold, Dion Prestia.

Their tall timber is promising as well - aggressive types. The flightly outside types haven't come on anywhere near as well.

[SlimPickens]

Libba signed on until 2018. Great news

http://m.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2015-05-13/libeartore-signs-new-deal

[bulldogtragic]

Libba signed on until 2018. Great news

http://m.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2015-05-13/libeartore-signs-new-deal

Awesome news. Only really Talia left. Winning makes signing players easy it would seem. And give Bont whatever he wants for how long he wants.

[jeemak]

Thanks Fellas, can we sign off on Mr Clayton and the previous regime and focus on the present?

Yes. Providing we can still get mileage out of Bmac's era! :)

[divvydan]

If Libba keeps growing that thing, he's going to be taller than Bont when he gets back.

[jeemak]

Great new for Libba, moderately great news for the club.

After Clay I'm a little unsure as to why we thought it was a good idea to lock away Libba for three seasons after a massive knee injury season when the future is clouded.

[azabob]

Great new for Libba, moderately great news for the club.

After Clay I'm a little unsure as to why we thought it was a good idea to lock away Libba for three seasons after a massive knee injury season when the future is clouded.

Kind of agree but don't. My thoughts are the discussions for a contract extension probably started during the pre-season. Which makes it hard to the delay talks.

[soupman]

Great new for Libba, moderately great news for the club.

After Clay I'm a little unsure as to why we thought it was a good idea to lock away Libba for three seasons after a massive knee injury season when the future is clouded.

I'm not.

If the club is happy to see Smith through three successive knee reco's why wouldn't they be happy to do the same on the off chance it happens to much more talented Libba?

He's one of the best inside mids in the game, even if he gets injured we are sticking by him and this means that we don't need to renegotiate in a years time when he is playing much better footy.

[Maddog37]

Libba is The Man when it's all said and done. If we got him a little cheaper due to injury then why not......

It's almost like SuperCoach 101.

[Greystache]

Great new for Libba, moderately great news for the club.

After Clay I'm a little unsure as to why we thought it was a good idea to lock away Libba for three seasons after a massive knee injury season when the future is clouded.

I'm a little bit this way too. It's great that our best young players are committing long term, but there's also some doubt there as well.

Libba did his knee changing direction in space, it wasn't an impact style tear of an ACL. That makes me nervous. If a player can do a knee with no contribution from outside forces it makes me think there's a pretty good chance it could recur.

[Mofra]

I'm a little bit this way too. It's great that our best young players are committing long term, but there's also some doubt there as well.
There is also the "stand by" factor - younger players knowing the club will stand by them if the worst happens which could help sway decisions to re-sign.

[bornadog]

Great new for Libba, moderately great news for the club.

After Clay I'm a little unsure as to why we thought it was a good idea to lock away Libba for three seasons after a massive knee injury season when the future is clouded.

Libba is an A grader, of course you re sign him

[LostDoggy]

Libba is an A grader, of course you re sign him

Yes, key part of the team, you have to maintain a positive outlook. He is not the only Libba either.

[SlimPickens]

Great new for Libba, moderately great news for the club.

After Clay I'm a little unsure as to why we thought it was a good idea to lock away Libba for three seasons after a massive knee injury season when the future is clouded.

You can't paint everyone with the same brush however. I understand that Clay's injury history will cloud some judgement, but honestly if you let it dictate list management in a first instance I think that is wrong. Don't forget our club captain did his knee once and has had a long prosperous career.

[Greystache]

Don't forget our club captain did his knee once and has had a long prosperous career.

What's your medical opinion on the manner in which a player does his ACL as an indicator for future injuries Slim? Murphy is a good example of a player that did his in an impact style situation where his opponent was the primary force behind his injury. Libba's ACL was a change in direction injury where his knee mechanics contributed to the injury, similar to Clay's and Daniel Menzel previously.

Murphy hasn't had issues with it since, where as Menzel and Clay have done there's repeatedly.

[mjp]

The numbers say you are more than 60% more likely to have an acl injury after a recon than before...This decision makes sense but is not without a lot of risk.

Great podcast on acl injuries and prevention here if you are interested:http://powerathletehq.com/2015/05/01/pa-radio-episode-104-dr-tim-hewett/

[SlimPickens]

What's your medical opinion on the manner in which a player does his ACL as an indicator for future injuries Slim? Murphy is a good example of a player that did his in an impact style situation where his opponent was the primary force behind his injury. Libba's ACL was a change in direction injury where his knee mechanics contributed to the injury, similar to Clay's and Daniel Menzel previously.

Murphy hasn't had issues with it since, where as Menzel and Clay have done there's repeatedly.

The mechnism of injury is concerning, both cases have shown flexion of the knee coupled with tibial rotation in relation to the femur. This is the classic way to stress the ACL and in both Libba and Clay's case what happened. I would argue that the actual force going through the ligament was of the high degree when you consider ground reaction force, momentum and gravity in each case.

It's a difficulty comparison as you're not dealing with the same tissue second time around (ligament compared to graft). There has been some studies done suggesting femoral condylar depth has a relation to the likelihood of initial ACL injury but IMO that is pretty flimsy as it was an incidental finding post rupture and there would be truckloads of people who have the same anomaly and have never had an injury. I also can't see any club avoiding drafting a player because of condylar depth.

Anyways to answer your question IMO it comes back to rehab, it is of common belief that a graft takes 18 months to reach full strength and in afl circles this has been adapted to a 12 month cycle due to the amount of rehab and training. I think in Clay's case he came back too early, so an already increased chance of re-injury went up further. Libba won't have that problem as the timing of his injury was "perfect".

[Bulldog4life]

Interesting take on it.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-04-30/sevenmonth-acl

THE NEXT frontier in the treatment of serious knee injuries could see AFL players returning within seven months of a traditional reconstruction.

Leading surgeon Julian Feller, who is credited with saving the careers of some of the game's biggest stars, believes clubs could eventually take a less conservative approach with knee injuries and move into line with overseas sports.

Tiger fears confirmed: ACL tear for Drummond

The AFL is funding a research project that will be conducted by a group of top surgeons to audit all serious knee injuries in the past 10 years and establish recovery trends.

A traditional knee reconstruction is seen by clubs as a 12-month injury, but Feller believes players could wipe four to five months off that timeline.

"I don't think it'll come back to being a six-month recovery, but it might come back to a situation where nine to 10 months doesn't seem unusual, and seven or eight seems feasible," Feller told AFL.com.au.

"Australia traditionally has been a little bit more conservative than other countries, and we would argue that maybe our game puts greater demands on the knee.

"So I think that will take time for people to be confident to do that."

Looking at players who suffered ACL injuries in 2013 and didn't have setbacks in their recovery, Adelaide captain Taylor Walker, Fremantle ruckman Jonathon Griffin and Hawthorn's Ryan Schoenmakers all returned exactly 12 months on.

Collingwood defender Alan Toovey and GWS forward Jonathon Patton, who has since suffered a repeat injury, both shaved a few weeks off their recovery so they could return in round one, 2014.

Young Magpie Matt Scharenberg ruptured his ACL on August 22 last year, but the 19-year-old is ready to return this weekend, eight months after his injury.

Feller, the surgeon of choice for most Victorian clubs, said he had found most players who targeted an early return were getting away with it.

"We've had some really early returns from ACL reconstructions, which then gives you confidence about treating subsequent players," he said.

"I think having the confidence to let players do more early on has probably helped them in their comeback.

"We've got much more baseline data and we know what someone was like at the start of the season when they're as fit as they should be.

"So then when you're doing their rehab you want to get them back to all of those levels. That's made a big difference."

The AFL's most recent injury report, covering the 2013 season, found that eight of the 23 ACL reconstructions that season were re-injuries due to graft failure.

This represented a high failure rate that the League said warranted further analysis.

Feller said surgeons had become better at recreating the anatomy of a player's knee in the reconstruction, but this also put the player at more risk of re-injury if he had started with a loose knee.

Some players will now undergo an additional operation called an extra-articular lateral tenodesis, which was commonplace in the early 1990s.

"There's a few players now who have had that done and they're all in the process of coming back, but we think that provides a bit more stability," Feller said.

"In some ways it's back to the future, because that's how I was taught to do the operation originally back in 1990 and then we dropped one part of the operation.

"It gives you, if you like, an external anterior cruciate ligament, which helps protect the real one inside."

Among the players returning from knee reconstructions this season are Andy Otten (Adelaide), Nathan Vardy (Geelong), Trent West (Brisbane Lions), Brent Macaffer (Collingwood) and Clay Smith (Western Bulldogs).

Geelong's Daniel Menzel is recovering from his fourth knee reconstruction, while Swan Alex Johnson and Fremantle's Anthony Morabito have each suffered complications getting back from their third reconstructions.

Seven players have suffered ACL injuries this year – Christian Petracca (Melbourne), Tom Liberatore (Western Bulldogs), Michael Close (Brisbane Lions), Daniel Nielson (North Melbourne), Nathan Drummond (Richmond) and Eric Mackenzie and Mitch Brown (West Coast).

Gold Coast star Jaeger O'Meara has been ruled out for the season after rupturing his patella tendon.

FIVE FAST RETURNS FROM KNEE RECONSTRUCTIONS

1995: David Schwarz (11 weeks)
Suffered his first ACL tear early in 1995 and returned inside three months only to re-injure the knee in his second game back. The following season he suffered yet another tear. The Melbourne forward's struggles are the main reason clubs adopted a conservative approach.

1998: Tony Liberatore (18 weeks)
The Brownlow medallist holds the AFL record for the fastest successful return from a knee reconstruction, returning from his second operation in just four-and-a-half months. His surgeon, David Young, operated on son Tom this year after the young Bulldog tore his ACL.

2008: Nick Malceski (12 weeks)
The 'bionic man' was the first player to undergo a LARS reconstruction in 2008, opting for a synthetic ligament in his second reconstruction. He opted for the same operation in 2011 when he re-injured his right knee, returning even quicker to the NEAFL in just 73 days.

2014: Tim Mohr (35 weeks)
A quick return by conservative modern standards, Mohr was back with Greater Western Sydney's reserves in the NEAFL early this season after tearing the ACL in his left knee in July last year. He has said the knee is feeling stronger than before he suffered the injury.

2014: Matthew Scharenberg (33 weeks)
Another example of a modern player pushing the boundaries following a traditional reconstruction, Scharenberg could play his first match this weekend in the VFL. The Magpies have still been conservative with the 19-year-old, who was physically ready to play three weeks ago.

[The Doctor]

2016 free agents

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-05-13/whos-up-for-grabs-the-preliminary-list-of-2016-free-agents-
2016 FREE AGENTS: PRELIMINARY LIST

Adelaide

Nathan van Berlo

AFL.com.au says: The former skipper won't be going anywhere. He will be 30 at the end of next season and form and fitness will determine whether he plays on.

"Brisbane

Daniel Merrett
Jack Redden
Daniel Rich

AFL.com.au says: West Australian Rich and South Australian Redden will be enticing targets for rival clubs given they will still be just 25 next year, so the Lions will probably move early to re-sign the two midfielders. Key defender Merrett briefly toyed with a move in last year's trade period, so will he consider a move to a premiership contender if his form holds up over the next two years? Merrett will turn 32 before the 2017 season but 2014 free agent Jarrad Waite turned 32 before embarking on his first season with North Melbourne this year.

Carlton

Kade Simpson
Chris Yarran

AFL.com.au says: We posed the question on Tuesday of whether the Blues should consider trading Yarran this year before he enters free agency. Yarran would have significant currency in the open market, along with captain Marc Murphy, Bryce Gibbs and out-of-contract spearhead Lachie Henderson. At 24, Yarran's best football should be ahead of him, but if the Blues are offered an early draft pick they could be prepared to let him go. Simpson will be 32 at the end of next season and will play on with the Blues or retire.

Collingwood

Nathan Brown
Scott Pendlebury
Steele Sidebottom
Dane Swan
Alan Toovey

AFL.com.au says: The Pies are more exposed than any other team at this early stage. They plan for skipper Pendlebury and Sidebottom to remain key members of their midfield for years to come, so will likely start contract talks for both ahead of next year. Key defender Brown's importance to the Magpies' defence continues to grow given Ben Reid's horror run of soft-tissue injuries, while Toovey is also a highly valued backman. Club great Swan will turn 33 before the 2017 season and will most likely call it a day.

Key defender Nathan Brown has become increasingly valuable for Collingwood. Picture: AFL Media


Essendon

Heath Hocking
Cale Hooker
David Myers

AFL.com.au says: All Australian defender Hooker is perhaps the most important player in the Bombers' spine and the West Australian could attract huge offers from teams such as perennial key-position-player hunter Fremantle. However, Hooker resisted a proposed trade to West Coast in 2012 and is now in the leadership group at Tullamarine, so seems little chance to leave. The injury-prone Myers is unlikely to look elsewhere either given the faith the Bombers have shown in him, while Hocking, who will turn 29 before the 2017 season, will probably play on with the Dons.

Fremantle

Chris Mayne
Clancee Pearce

AFL.com.au says: The Dockers have yet to lose a player to free agency and 2016 shapes as another carefree year. Mayne has returned to his best this season and Pearce has been in career-best form in the midfield. With Fremantle's premiership window still firmly open, it's hard to see either leaving.

Geelong

Tom Lonergan

AFL.com.au says: The key defender flirted with joining the Western Bulldogs in last year's trade period but when he re-committed to the Cats he all but guaranteed he would retire a one-club player. Lonergan will be 32 at the end of next season, when his decision to play on will be influenced by his own fitness and form and the development of Jake Kolodjashnij.

Hawthorn

Luke Hodge
Sam Mitchell

AFL.com.au says: Nothing to see here, move on. Hodge and Mitchell will either re-sign with the Hawks or retire.

Melbourne

Jack Grimes
Neville Jetta
Jake Spencer
Jack Watts

AFL.com.au says: The two Jacks have stagnated in recent seasons so Melbourne might consider dealing them out this year if it gets the right trade offers. With Watts, the Demons have to ask themselves whether this year represents their last opportunity to get a decent return at the trade table for 2008's No.1 draft pick.

North Melbourne

Leigh Adams
Todd Goldstein
Lindsay Thomas
Daniel Wells
Jack Ziebell

AFL.com.au says: Goldstein has stamped himself as the Roos' most valuable player this season and it won't be long before they seek to open talks with his manager. Thomas and vice-captain Ziebell are key re-signings too, but it is unclear whether Wells and Adams will play on beyond 2016. Wells will be 31 at the end of next season and if his recent injury struggles continue he could decide to retire. Adams could even hang up the boots this year depending on his recovery from a string of recent concussions.

Todd Goldstein has emerged as one of North's most valuable player. Picture: AFL Media


Port Adelaide

Hamish Hartlett
Paul Stewart

AFL.com.au says: It's all about Hartlett for the Power. The 2008 draft's No.4 pick is an emerging star and Port will be keen to lock him away early. The midfielder is a South Australian and will almost certainly recommit to Port given how well placed the club is for on-field success over the next few seasons. Stewart will be playing for his career over the next 18 months, having managed just four senior games since the end of 2013.

Richmond

Shane Edwards
Jack Riewoldt
Tyrone Vickery

AFL.com.au says: Richmond is already striving to keep its best key defender, Alex Rance, from leaving via free agency at the end of this season, so will be anxious to avoid a similar year of speculation about the future of its best key forward, Riewoldt, in 2016. Look for the Tigers to move on a new deal for Riewoldt well ahead of next year's free agency period. Edwards has been one of few positives to come out of Richmond's poor start to 2015 and his speed and class will make him attractive to rival clubs. Vickery was once Riewoldt's sidekick in attack but has fallen out of favour since his suspension for striking former Eagle Dean Cox late last year. Nonetheless, tall forwards remain a rare commodity and an opposition team might convince Richmond to let him go in this year's trade period.

St Kilda

David Armitage
Jarryn Geary
Nick Riewoldt

AFL.com.au says: Armitage and Geary's experience makes them important re-signings for the young Saints, while the leadership group members will presumably be just as keen to stay given the exciting signs shown by the club's raft of youngsters this season. Captain Riewoldt will turn 34 next October, when his battle-scarred body will presumably have had enough.

Sydney Swans

Craig Bird
Dan Hannebery
Kieren Jack
Mike Pyke
Nick Smith

AFL.com.au says: Will another Swan be squeezed out by the salary cap pressure created by the mega contracts of star forwards Lance Franklin and Kurt Tippett? All Australian defender Nick Malceski joined Gold Coast as a free agent at the end of last season, will Hannebery, for instance, do the same next year? Rumours persist that the Victorian midfielder is considering a move home, so the Swans could face a nervous year. Co-captain Jack won't be going anywhere but Victorian Smith would appeal to teams looking for a hard-nosed small defender. Pyke will turn 33 around the start of the 2017 season but in the absence of an obvious ruck successor could play on.

Dan Hannebery will be highly sought by rivals if he is allowed to become a free agent. Picture: AFL Media


West Coast

Mitch Brown
Chris Masten
Matt Priddis
Matt Rosa
Will Schofield

AFL.com.au says: Key defenders Mitch Brown and Will Schofield might be the two players most closely monitored by rival teams. When Brown and Eric Mackenzie return from knee reconstructions next season, the competition for spots in the Eagles' backline will be fierce. If Brown or Schofield struggle for senior opportunities they could consider a move.

Western Bulldogs

Will Minson

AFL.com.au says: The Bulldogs' young list means free agency poses little threat next season. Minson will be 31 by the end of next season and will likely play on with the Dogs or retire.

[azabob]

2016 is a long way off, but Todd Goldstein and Dan Hannebery might be worth a look.

[Bulldog Joe]

2016 is a long way off, but Todd Goldstein and Dan Hannebery might be worth a look.

Both would be very attractive to every club.

Hannebery would be most likely to move given salary cap pressure at Sydney.

[Greystache]

Pendlebury would look good next to Bonti! I could find a role for Hooker in defence too (I initially wrote I could find a position for Hooker down back before re-reading it!)

[bulldogtragic]

Pendlebury would look good next to Bonti! I could find a role for Hooker in defence too (I initially wrote I could find a position for Hooker down back before re-reading it!)

You mean pulling over your car and giving them a lift home in the back seat? #eddiemurphyreference

[azabob]

Hooker would be 28 by 2017, I wonder how his body would hold up for 4-5 years?

[bulldogtragic]

Nathan Vardy?

[azabob]

Nathan Vardy?

He is too injury prone. If he could keep fit, it would be a big yes.

[FrediKanoute]

Gotta feel for Big Wil Minson. 2 years ago he would have walked into most starting 18's......

[bulldogtragic]

If Kruezer can stay on the park this year, I think we should have a crack at him. If Minson was traded his salary would be around $450,000 or more. If we threw 3 years and $450,000 at Kruezer, that compo could almost net them top tier compo at this point pick 2 assuming they finish last. That's an easy decision for Carlton and they might even want Minson?

So we'd have a first ruck, Roughy (def) and Kruezer (fwd) to second or third ruck.

Leaving obtaining a KPD for the trade table, and perhaps some outside run.

[azabob]

BT, whose the first ruck in your scenerio?

[bulldogtragic]

BT, whose the first ruck in your scenerio?

Hopefully Campbell or Cordy. Or Kruezer, and Roughy and Canpbell/Cordy as second forward.

[SlimPickens]

Murph signed on for 2016. Great news

[Hot_Doggies]

If Kruezer can stay on the park this year, I think we should have a crack at him. If Minson was traded his salary would be around $450,000 or more. If we threw 3 years and $450,000 at Kruezer, that compo could almost net them top tier compo at this point pick 2 assuming they finish last. That's an easy decision for Carlton and they might even want Minson?

So we'd have a first ruck, Roughy (def) and Kruezer (fwd) to second or third ruck.

Leaving obtaining a KPD for the trade table, and perhaps some outside run.

I haven't seen Carlton play this year.

Kruezer in ripping form BT?

[bulldogtragic]

I haven't seen Carlton play this year.

Kruezer in ripping form BT?

He's playing his first game this week.

[Sedat]

If Kruezer can stay on the park this year, I think we should have a crack at him. If Minson was traded his salary would be around $450,000 or more. If we threw 3 years and $450,000 at Kruezer, that compo could almost net them top tier compo at this point pick 2 assuming they finish last. That's an easy decision for Carlton and they might even want Minson?

So we'd have a first ruck, Roughy (def) and Kruezer (fwd) to second or third ruck.

Leaving obtaining a KPD for the trade table, and perhaps some outside run.
How many ruckmen do you think we need BT? We already have Cordy, Minson, Campbell, Roughy, Redpath, T Boyd, M Boyd, Jong, Goodes, Stevens and Bont ;)

[bulldogtragic]

How many ruckmen do you think we need BT? We already have Cordy, Minson, Campbell, Roughy, Redpath, T Boyd, M Boyd, Jong, Goodes, Stevens and Bont ;)

Not enough. Maybe we need a 'Honeychurch for Ruck' thread. :)

[LostDoggy]

Not enough. Maybe we need a 'Honeychurch for Ruck' thread. :)

Or a Spindle Shanks one ;)

[Hotdog60]

We lost our best one in Cooney.

[josie]

You have all forgotten Caleb Daniel - do not let appearances deceive you.

[BulldogBelle]

We lost our best one in Cooney.

How could we forget that.
l remember watching that over and over.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwuQOFrOEkQ

[bulldogtragic]

WHE extended his contract with them.

[comrade]

https://7bcmtransfers.digitalpigeon.com/msg/kv0yUAhJEeWS2wYBQz27EA/oD19ykT-yHkEfj_ct1-oMw/file/615874d0-0849-11e5-92db-0601433dbb10

Jake Carlisle's manager stating there is plenty of interest and 'Essendon knows where we sit'.

HE'S GAWN.

[Eastdog]

Lachie Henderson
Matthew Cruizer
Jake Carsile

I was speaking with my brother his a Collingwood supporter but anyway he was saying that we should look at these 3 possibly. Cruizer obviously as some have said has the injury concerns, Carsile may stretch the salary cap but Lachie Henderson could be one that has value still and is someone who can play all over the ground.

[SlimPickens]

Lachie Henderson
Matthew Cruizer
Jake Carsile

I was speaking with my brother his a Collingwood supporter but anyway he was saying that we should look at these 3 possibly. Cruizer obviously as some have said has the injury concerns, Carsile may stretch the salary cap but Lachie Henderson could be one that has value still and is someone who can play all over the ground.

Who is this Cruizer bloke you talk of?

[The Doctor]

more on Carlisle

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-06-04/carlisle-puts-off-contract-talks-to-focus-on-his-footy

[Eastdog]

Who is this Cruizer bloke you talk of?

Sorry SlimPickens wrong spelling Matthew Kreuzer from Carlton. I for some reason always picture the surname starting with C.

[comrade]

Was firmly on the Get Carlisle wagon, but after watching our defensive group do a decent job of curtailing some good key forwards over the past 2 weeks (with Talia to be inserted), I'm leaning towards keeping our first pick and drafting the best available midfielder.

We just don't have enough cream in the midfield with the exception of Bonti & Macrae, and it hurt us last night with a lack of spread from congestion. One more skilled runner would make a world of difference.

Thoughts?

[GVGjr]

Was firmly on the Get Carlisle wagon, but after watching our defensive group do a decent job of curtailing some good key forwards over the past 2 weeks (with Talia to be inserted), I'm leaning towards keeping our first pick and drafting the best available midfielder.

We just don't have enough cream in the midfield with the exception of Bonti & Macrae, and it hurt us last night with a lack of spread from congestion. One more skilled runner would make a world of difference.

Thoughts?

We have many needs but I tend to agree that it's a midfielder that should be our priority.
The one thing we tend to lack across most of the list is genuine athleticism and while I don't think that's been a huge priority at the draft table I think it needs to be. We also have enough players sub 183cm so it probably needs to be a midfielder at least 185cm tall.

It's going to be difficult to cut a lot of players from the list so we might only be working with 4 or 5 selections.

[azabob]

Agree Comrade. In the last 2 drafts i have been wanting a quick, agile, elite quick outside midfielder and I still firmly believe we need that type of player.

[jeemak]

Depending on where we finish we might be strapped for choice. The type of player suggested by aza is pretty much what all teams are after, and I agree it's the type of player we need to view as a priority.

It will be interesting to see how McLean develops and where Daniel fits in once he starts getting some games. I also think Hrovat and Dale from what I've seen can probably play that type of role as well. Though all of these guys need preseasons and continuity over the next three or so years.

I'm open to trading in an option to assist on the outside. Realistically, any player we draft this year and next isn't going to be having a genuine impact until the final years of the decade, and I think we might be ready for a surge up the ladder and some serious finals football prior to that. Trading someone in might be the better option, though it all depends on who's available and when over the next two post seasons.

[bornadog]

Depending on where we finish we might be strapped for choice. The type of player suggested by aza is pretty much what all teams are after, and I agree it's the type of player we need to view as a priority.

It will be interesting to see how McLean develops and where Daniel fits in once he starts getting some games. I also think Hrovat and Dale from what I've seen can probably play that type of role as well. Though all of these guys need preseasons and continuity over the next three or so years.

I'm open to trading in an option to assist on the outside. Realistically, any player we draft this year and next isn't going to be having a genuine impact until the final years of the decade, and I think we might be ready for a surge up the ladder and some serious finals football prior to that. Trading someone in might be the better option, though it all depends on who's available and when over the next two post seasons.

I would love to have someone like Dangerfield giving us a mature body in the midfield. Even Libba is only 22, so we lack that real mature body.

[jeemak]

I would love to have someone like Dangerfield giving us a mature body in the midfield. Even Libba is only 22, so we lack that real mature body.

Mature body and pace to burn. He'd be absolutely perfect.

[bulldogtragic]

I would love to have someone like Dangerfield giving us a mature body in the midfield. Even Libba is only 22, so we lack that real mature body.

A Dangerfield & Talia combo this year from the Crows... That would burn them like '97 burns us.

Accordingly, I'm all for it.

[chef]

A Dangerfield & Talia combo this year from the Crows... That would burn them like '97 burns us.

Accordingly, I'm all for it.

Not even close buddy:(.

[bulldogtragic]

Charlie Dixon reportedly offered $750,000 by a team who isn't us. So I can't imagine we are still in any race for him.

Unless Eade want Wilbur back! :)

[lemmon]

Charlie Dixon reportedly offered $750,000 by a team who isn't us. So I can't imagine we are still in any race for him.

Unless Eade want Wilbur back! :)

Huge call to throw that money at him, aggressive big body but I just don't see him ever kicking 65 goals a year

[GVGjr]

Huge call to throw that money at him, aggressive big body but I just don't see him ever kicking 65 goals a year

He could be a solid forward and ruckman but I wonder how bad he wants it. Potentially a good player but could we really cough up an early draft pick and a lot of cash again?

[Dancin' Douggy]

Was firmly on the Get Carlisle wagon, but after watching our defensive group do a decent job of curtailing some good key forwards over the past 2 weeks (with Talia to be inserted), I'm leaning towards keeping our first pick and drafting the best available midfielder.

We just don't have enough cream in the midfield with the exception of Bonti & Macrae, and it hurt us last night with a lack of spread from congestion. One more skilled runner would make a world of difference.

Thoughts?
I agree 100% and said as much on the Alex Rance thread. What we need is some real silk and pace in the midfield. Basically a Cooney / Griffyne type. Although I'd settle for Jack Martin.

[1eyedog]

Huge call to throw that money at him, aggressive big body but I just don't see him ever kicking 65 goals a year

65 goals and real forward target! Worth every bit of 750k!
Of course we would never throw big money at a big man who has potential but still hasn't lived up to it.

[Remi Moses]

It's incredible to think their was a pitch fork and flame mentality last draft when we didn't pick up a key back!
Now we've got to many ....
I'm in the quick mid school

[stefoid]

FWIW Essendon forum members 'with sauces' say Carlisle is as good as gone.

So its just a question of which club picks him up.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Is Carlisle an unrestricted free agent or would we have to trade for him?

[Axe Man]

Is Carlisle an unrestricted free agent or would we have to trade for him?

He's not old enough to be a free agent - a trade would be required.

[lemmon]

65 goals and real forward target! Worth every bit of 750k!
Of course we would never throw big money at a big man who has potential but still hasn't lived up to it.

I don't particularly see the potential with Dixon and I was saying it's a big call for whichever club is throwing the coin, not us

[bulldogtragic]

He's not old enough to be a free agent - a trade would be required.

Yep. Trade it'd need to be. I imagine our pick 10 and JJ (plus initial ambit claim) would be the asking price.

[Greystache]

Yep. Trade it'd need to be. I imagine our pick 10 and JJ (plus initial ambit claim) would be the asking price.

Given his recent form line I'm not convinced we'd need to add a sweetener to pick 10. He doesn't want to be there, is out of contract, and has shown that if he's not in a happy place his output is pretty affected. Essendon can't hang onto him and he's a high risk pick up in the PSD for a club that chooses him against his will. Ryder was traded for pick 17 which is about equal comparing age and output.

[chef]

FWIW Essendon forum members 'with sauces' say Carlisle is as good as gone.

So its just a question of which club picks him up.
Stevo said us and Hawks leading the charge and we've promised him we'd play him in his prefer position down back.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Being Essendon the asking price will be Bontempelli and Pick 10

Being realistic it will take our first rounder i think. I dont think we need to add anything else.

Pick 10 plus JJ is way overs. Based on current form of both players this is especially so.

Reality is we really need an athletic mid first - one with clean skills - but seriously that would have to be the no 1 pick right? So Carlisle as a CHB with ability to switch CHF is next on our priority list

[G-Mo77]

Why is JJ being thrown in? Because Essendon apparently wanted him a couple of years ago. No way and no way for a first round pick. Carsile has been average at best no way he's worth pick 10 and JJ I don't think he's worth pick 10 either.

[bulldogtragic]

Yep. Trade it'd need to be. I imagine our pick 10 and JJ (plus initial ambit claim) would be the asking price.

I didn't say that's what I'd do. I said that'd be their asking price. How we respond to that is another thing all together.

[G-Mo77]

I didn't say that's what I'd do. I said that'd be their asking price. How we respond to that is another thing all together.

Out of contract so who cares what their response would be. We offered a 2nd round pick for Crameri from day 1 in the trade period they moaned and whined and took for the entire period and took the deal, that was his worth. Carslisle is out of contract so good luck to them in trying to pry more away.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Why is JJ being thrown in? Because Essendon apparently wanted him a couple of years ago. No way and no way for a first round pick. Carsile has been average at best no way he's worth pick 10 and JJ I don't think he's worth pick 10 either.

I agree pick 10 is overs base don his current form. It will all depend on what Jake wants to do though as there will be multiple clubs fighting for him - Carlton, Richmond, Hawthorn have all been mentioned. But if he nominates us it will help our cause

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Given his recent form line I'm not convinced we'd need to add a sweetener to pick 10. He doesn't want to be there, is out of contract, and has shown that if he's not in a happy place his output is pretty affected. Essendon can't hang onto him and he's a high risk pick up in the PSD for a club that chooses him against his will. Ryder was traded for pick 17 which is about equal comparing age and output.

Pick 10 or thereabouts for Carlisle - would you do it Grey?

It's an interesting dilemma. Our key backs have started to look OK with Roberts much improved and Hamling/Talia showing some encouraging signs. Having said that, none are proven and each have key flaws. Our greatest weakness is the midfield - realistically we're a couple short, hence needing our half forwards to spend large portions of the game in the middle of the ground.

We know that finding quality big men is difficult, whilst finding quality midfielders is much easier. I'd be inclined to pull the trigger and do it - a Carlisle/Roberts/Hamling trio allows Roughy to play ruck/forward possibly in tandem with Campbell.

[Greystache]

Pick 10 or thereabouts for Carlisle - would you do it Grey?

It's an interesting dilemma. Our key backs have started to look OK with Roberts much improved and Hamling/Talia showing some encouraging signs. Having said that, none are proven and each have key flaws. Our greatest weakness is the midfield - realistically we're a couple short, hence needing our half forwards to spend large portions of the game in the middle of the ground.

We know that finding quality big men is difficult, whilst finding quality midfielders is much easier. I'd be inclined to pull the trigger and do it - a Carlisle/Roberts/Hamling trio allows Roughy to play ruck/forward possibly in tandem with Campbell.

Yep, all things being equal. He's a quality key defender who can play on a variety of opponents and gives us a solid core in defence. Between Roberts, Hamling, and Talia I'm confident we can round out the remainder, while also pushing Roughead into the ruck. We still need mids but there's more around and you can pick up quality in the second round easier than KPP.

We just need to focus on drafting pure mids who have size and pace. No more midgets, no more HBF/HFF types that can do a stint in the middle, no more slow players.

[jeemak]

I wouldn't be surprised if we thought we'd need to hang on to our first pick, the reality is we'll be losing Clay Smith in all likelihood and we have Liberatore coming back from a knee as well which exposes us somewhat, so we need to ensure elite first round midfield talent comes onto our list in this year's draft.

That would mean we'd need to secure another first round draft pick to land Carlisle, and in order to do that we'd probably have to bundle our second round pick with a more than handy player.

[Twodogs]

Was firmly on the Get Carlisle wagon, but after watching our defensive group do a decent job of curtailing some good key forwards over the past 2 weeks (with Talia to be inserted), I'm leaning towards keeping our first pick and drafting the best available midfielder.

We just don't have enough cream in the midfield with the exception of Bonti & Macrae, and it hurt us last night with a lack of spread from congestion. One more skilled runner would make a world of difference.

Thoughts?

Two words. Poise and precision. I don't know if it's because we have such a young team but if we'd just had a bit more poise we wouldn't have thrown a couple of games away. Against Freo the ball gets to Stevens from Goodes and we win. Against St Kilda, well there were nine or ten times we threw that one away, but if we'd just been able to stop and sum up for a minute or two and adjust accordingly we win the game.

A smart midfielder who uses the ball well and has a bit of toe is the next part of the puzzle.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Yep, all things being equal. He's a quality key defender who can play on a variety of opponents and gives us a solid core in defence. Between Roberts, Hamling, and Talia I'm confident we can round out the remainder, while also pushing Roughead into the ruck. We still need mids but there's more around and you can pick up quality in the second round easier than KPP.

We just need to focus on drafting pure mids who have size and pace. No more midgets, no more HBF/HFF types that can do a stint in the middle, no more slow players.

I suppose the argument to the last point is that you do need early picks to find 'complete' midfielders who are relatively quick, strong, ball winners with good disposal.

Does it become a question of who we target - Carlisle or Dangerfield - and who our preferred option would be? I'd find it hard to separate the two, both would add a lot to our side. It would be pretty damn fun watching Bonti and Danger in the same side, with Libba/Wallis too.

[bulldogtragic]

I suppose the argument to the last point is that you do need early picks to find 'complete' midfielders who are relatively quick, strong, ball winners with good disposal.

Does it become a question of who we target - Carlisle or Dangerfield - and who our preferred option would be? I'd find it hard to separate the two, both would add a lot to our side. It would be pretty damn fun watching Bonti and Danger in the same side, with Libba/Wallis too.

Danger field is a FA so I like it, depending on salary. That's our midfielder and then we've picks to move. Pick 20 and Henderson for pick 10. Hun says $500,000 is around Hendo. Not sure we could find $1.3 or so for both. We'd need to move Minson on and retire Boyd and Morris. Geelong said to be looking at this combo, ballsy move but a FB and gun mid and top 20 pick. Fair outcome.

[Webby]

Everyone needs to remember that Dangerfield is a RESTRICTED free agent. That means that Adelaide can hold onto him by simply matching an offer to him. This means the deal would need to be a mega offer.

Free Agency is there to top up with older, unrestricted free agents once the project is 95% complete. We're not at that point as yet. We'd be far better placed to just keep drafting and developing at this stage. Trading is the way to go at this point, but only at the right price.

Norf overspent on Higgins, only to realise it effectively squeezed out Greenwood. Greenwood is more of a loss than Higgins is a gain for them. Restricted free agents come at top dollar. Unrestricted free agents are where the value is. Problem for us is it's too early to go down that path.

[boydogs]

I like Carlisle more as a forward, which is where we would need him, yet he is said to prefer us as he could be a permanent defender. I don't think he is worth pick 10 purely in defense

[The Doctor]

I'd go for Carlisle for sure and pass on Dangerfield. However I would also go for Hannebury in the 2016 free agency.

It's so hard to build a spine and Dalrymple has not delivered any KP players of certain AFL quality as yet. I'm excited by the prospect of Talia and Roberts coming good and the acquisition of Hamling looks a shrewd move but none as yet are established, whereas Carlisle is and would be the first key defender chosen.

I'd pass on Dangerfield. i'd love to have him but the cost would be enormous. We can use the draft to find quick midfielders and good ball users more easily than KPP.

I think a player like Hannebury would be worth having a crack at in 2016. A premiership player to add experience and leadership to an emerging midfield would be fantastic for us.

[Twodogs]

I don't know about Dangerfield. If we pay him a lot, then Bontempelli, Stringer, Macrae and the rest of a hopefully rapidly improving list will need to be paid a lot too

[stefoid]

I suppose the argument to the last point is that you do need early picks to find 'complete' midfielders who are relatively quick, strong, ball winners with good disposal.


I think Webb is our best bet there - I hope he can transition to being a member of our small army of mid/fwds. I see Macrae becoming more of a contested ball winner while Webb and possibly one or two of Hamilton/Dale/Daniel providing outside polish.

Our 2014 draft haul looks like hitting the target we aimed at in 2009 when we drafted Howard and Tutt and @$#@ it up instead.

[1eyedog]

I don't know about Dangerfield. If we pay him a lot, then Bontempelli, Stringer, Macrae and the rest of a hopefully rapidly improving list will need to be paid a lot too

True and I don't know about any Essendon player either, unless until WADA is finished with them.

[Twodogs]

I've meant to add the WADA rider too. Who knows what they will do!

[Dry Rot]

I've meant to add the WADA rider too. Who knows what they will do!

I'm pretty confident Carlisle and 33 other past and present Bombers won't be playing for 2 seasons.

So for me, pass on Carlisle.

FWIW, there are two rumours on BF that Hunter wants out, and Carlisle has interest in going to the Blues.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'm pretty confident Carlisle and 33 other past and present Bombers won't be playing for 2 seasons.

So for me, pass on Carlisle.

FWIW, there are two rumours on BF that Hunter wants out, and Carlisle has interest in going to the Blues.

I can't see a position in our side for him so I'd be happy to trade him out.

[Ozza]

I'm not 100% on Carlisle as a player. He has some good attributes, but also some that worry me.
The best between his best and worse is still quite a gap, at 24 years of age. He is great in the air, but not a great kick.
I also don't like hearing that he wants out of Essendon because they aren't playing him where he likes to play. If we got him, and things weren't working with our team balance and needed him to shift forward - is he going to be disgruntled with us too?

Happy enough to have him, but wouldn't like to see us go in guns blazing for him (Trade & $'s wise).

[Twodogs]

I'm pretty confident Carlisle and 33 other past and present Bombers won't be playing for 2 seasons.

So for me, pass on Carlisle.

FWIW, there are two rumours on BF that Hunter wants out, and Carlisle has interest in going to the Blues.

I'd be 100% sure they'd be found not guilty under any sane legal system. Just can't pick this three ring circus though so a no from me too.

Paying a player millions of dollars is just the sort of thing that would happen to us. I am 100% certain of that.

[1eyedog]

Everyone needs to remember that Dangerfield is a RESTRICTED free agent. That means that Adelaide can hold onto him by simply matching an offer to him. This means the deal would need to be a mega offer.

Free Agency is there to top up with older, unrestricted free agents once the project is 95% complete. We're not at that point as yet. We'd be far better placed to just keep drafting and developing at this stage. Trading is the way to go at this point, but only at the right price.

Norf overspent on Higgins, only to realise it effectively squeezed out Greenwood. Greenwood is more of a loss than Higgins is a gain for them. Restricted free agents come at top dollar. Unrestricted free agents are where the value is. Problem for us is it's too early to go down that path.

Don't bet on it Webby I think we are closer than you, we all, think.

[Greystache]

I'd be 100% sure they'd be found not guilty under any sane legal system. Just can't pick this three ring circus though so a no from me too

Are you saying the international Court of Arbitration for Sport is a three ring circus but you were comfortable with the legitimacy of the AFL finding it's own club not guilty of doping?

[GVGjr]

FWIW, there are two rumours on BF that Hunter wants out, and Carlisle has interest in going to the Blues.

Good source or just speculation that Hunter not getting a regular game means he is wanting out?

[Avoid the rush]

Good source or just speculation that Hunter not getting a regular game means he is wanting out?

Would hope that Lauchie would put his head down and work his but off to reclaim his spot in the side....He was given number 7.....Obviously brainstrust just want him to want IT!......not spit it and move on.!!!

[Twodogs]

Are you saying the international Court of Arbitration for Sport is a three ring circus but you were comfortable with the legitimacy of the AFL finding it's own club not guilty of doping?


Yep to the first part, not comfortably satisfied as to anything really with the second.

[kruder]

Good source or just speculation that Hunter not getting a regular game means he is wanting out?

I can't remember the last time Essendon had a small forward. We have many similar types I'd be using him as trade bait for sure.

[1eyedog]

The problem for Lachie is unless you have super elite skills and pace (Walters, Rioli, Betts, Elliot) or a number of strings to your bow (Robbie Gray) you'll struggle in purely the small forward role. It's partly why Dahl and to a lesser extent Dicko have been moved up the ground (and adapted), and it's why the McGlynn's and Chapman's are currently on the cusp of their respective teams.

Lachie holds very little trade value, even to Essendon, he's not quick and his skill set, while untapped, seems to be lacking.

[Remi Moses]

Probably Alwyn Davey and Harvey's brother ( remember that little upstart)

[Remi Moses]

The problem for Lachie is unless you have super elite skills and pace (Walters, Rioli, Betts, Elliot) or a number of strings to your bow (Robbie Gray) you'll struggle in purely the small forward role. It's partly why Dahl and to a lesser extent Dicko have been moved up the ground (and adapted), and it's why the McGlynn's and Chapman's are currently on the cusp of their respective teams.

Lachie holds very little trade value, even to Essendon, he's not quick and his skill set, while untapped, seems to be lacking.

Lachie has to decide whether he wants to be a social butterfly or a dedicated footballer.

[Dry Rot]

Good source or just speculation that Hunter not getting a regular game means he is wanting out?

Good source.

[1eyedog]

Lachie has to decide whether he wants to be a social butterfly or a dedicated footballer.

Yes that's the other problem both on and off the field!
+ Lachie needs to be able to learn a different trade than flashy goal kicker. Every other small / medium player in our side can play dual roles. I suspect that's why he's on the outer as well, he lacks flexibility atm.

[comrade]

HYPOTHETICAL:

If we do trade our first pick, we need to give Dalrymple the opportunity to snare a gun mid with a top 20 pick. Obviously, we'd need to offload some quality to do so.

I don't love the idea, but if we were to bring in Carlisle, is Talia surplus and would he afford us a top 20 pick?

[lemmon]

Yes that's the other problem both on and off the field!
+ Lachie needs to be able to learn a different trade than flashy goal kicker. Every other small / medium player in our side can play dual roles. I suspect that's why he's on the outer as well, he lacks flexibility atm.

To be fair the guy is right up there with the best runners at the club, harsh to rubber stamp him as a 'flashy goal kicker' when all the talk during pre-season was that he was neck and neck with Boyd in the distance running stakes and he's winning plenty of the footy at VFL level.

[bulldogtragic]

HYPOTHETICAL:

If we do trade our first pick, we need to give Dalrymple the opportunity to snare a gun mid with a top 20 pick. Obviously, we'd need to offload some quality to do so.

I don't love the idea, but if we were to bring in Carlisle, is Talia surplus and would he afford us a top 20 pick?

I like the creativity used, but I'm not sold on letting Talia go. I like Carlisle, but the idea of Henderson and pick 20 for pick 10 and $500,000 a year. Henderson & Roughy become genuine swing men types. Surely pick 20 (with or without a player) can net us a seriously good mid at the trade table. Plus Minno stays or his AA wage goes at a ruck FA.

Net could be Hendo, Roughy & club/Bevo wanted second ruck, Libba back and pick 20 for a mid. Sure it's not Carlisle on $800,000 but I'm tending towards this assuming the other Talia is ungettable.

[1eyedog]

To be fair the guy is right up there with the best runners at the club, harsh to rubber stamp him as a 'flashy goal kicker' when all the talk during pre-season was that he was neck and neck with Boyd in the distance running stakes and he's winning plenty of the footy at VFL level.

I'm not sure your post really has any relevance at all to mine, actually I'm pretty certain it doesn't.

I'm not rubber stamping his endurance or his running capacity, I was talking about his lack of pace. Sure he may have other strengths but pace isn't one of them. To be fair to the guy he hasn't even been a flashy goal kicker has he? He's been very underwhelming. I'm happy to rubber stamp him as a player capable of playing deep forward or nowhere atm; however, given his age and potential ceiling I'm also more than willing to retain him so he can develop the ability to play higher up the ground. Maybe he has trade relevance given his age and potential.

It's great that he's winning ball at VFL level but really I was discussing his relevance to the senior team, heck, Andrew Hooper dominated at VFL level.

[mjp]

Lachie has to decide whether he wants to be a social butterfly or a dedicated footballer.

I don't know anything about that. His on-field behaviours are not great though - it stands out when everyone else is 'all in' and he sticks out a hand at a ground ball rather than putting his head in there. I think Hunter has great natural game-sense and kicks it well but until he learns how to play real 'team' footy - and I couldn't really care how many possessions he gets at Footscray - he shouldn't be picked in the 1's again.

[GVGjr]

I think we can all see the merit in adding a player like Carlisle to a side like ours but I think there are a few alarm bells we need to consider:

- WADA - Having Crameri already complicates the risk of potentially losing players through a ban or suspension.
- Draft picks - Despite basically getting picks 1 and 4 in the 2013 draft can we really afford to go a 2nd year without a first round pick in a side that is trying to build the list?
- Attitude - I'm concerned when players want to leave a club because they feel they are being played out of position particularly when they have been so whiny about it. If the coach demands versatility from the players can Carlisle adjust?


I could probably list 2 or 3 more reasons for concern but while adding Carlisle to the team seems to make sense particularly freeing up Roughead it just has a level of risk that doesn't excite me at the moment.

[1eyedog]

I think we can all see the merit in adding a player like Carlisle to a side like ours but I think there are a few alarm bells we need to consider:

- WADA - Having Crameri already complicates the risk of potentially losing players through a ban or suspension.
- Draft picks - Despite basically getting picks 1 and 4 in the 2013 draft can we really afford to go a 2nd year without a first round pick in a side that is trying to build the list?
- Attitude - I'm concerned when players want to leave a club because they feel they are being played out of position particularly when they have been so whiny about it. If the coach demands versatility from the players can Carlisle adjust?


I could probably list 2 or 3 more reasons for concern but while adding Carlisle to the team seems to make sense particularly freeing up Roughead it just has a level of risk that doesn't excite me at the moment.

Agree with all of that. The other thing that concerns me is whether we'll shoot ourselves in the foot with Carlisle acquisition. I thought Talia was tracking well and so is Roberts and now Hamling. They're all young, have shown ability and have been very solid in their roles. If Carlisle comes in and wants to play back I reckon we may lose one of them. While this would have been fine 6 months ago, given their current trajectory I worry that we may lose something good and something that's worth keeping.

[comrade]

I think we can all see the merit in adding a player like Carlisle to a side like ours but I think there are a few alarm bells we need to consider:

- WADA - Having Crameri already complicates the risk of potentially losing players through a ban or suspension.
- Draft picks - Despite basically getting picks 1 and 4 in the 2013 draft can we really afford to go a 2nd year without a first round pick in a side that is trying to build the list?
- Attitude - I'm concerned when players want to leave a club because they feel they are being played out of position particularly when they have been so whiny about it. If the coach demands versatility from the players can Carlisle adjust?


I could probably list 2 or 3 more reasons for concern but while adding Carlisle to the team seems to make sense particularly freeing up Roughead it just has a level of risk that doesn't excite me at the moment.

If we bring in a player via trading our first, we MUST get back on the board within the top 20 picks.

[Dry Rot]

- Attitude - I'm concerned when players want to leave a club because they feel they are being played out of position particularly when they have been so whiny about it. If the coach demands versatility from the players can Carlisle adjust?

Yeah, that worries me too.

[azabob]

GVGjr, technically you are correct that we didn't draft a round one pick last draft, but I think bringing in Boyd counters that. Having said that I think we should keep our first round pick this year.

[Greystache]

I don't know anything about that. His on-field behaviours are not great though - it stands out when everyone else is 'all in' and he sticks out a hand at a ground ball rather than putting his head in there. I think Hunter has great natural game-sense and kicks it well but until he learns how to play real 'team' footy - and I couldn't really care how many possessions he gets at Footscray - he shouldn't be picked in the 1's again.

And that's the crux of the issue for me too. Well that and the when we don't have the ball we have 17 players fanatically applying pressure, laying tackles, and gut running defensively, Hunter again stands out as being the exception.

It's all good and well to fancy yourself as a flashy outside mid/forward, but when you're not a line breaker, don't cut teams up with disposal, nor impact the scoreboard regularly then you'd want to be a defensive animal or you'll find yourself playing VFL.

He reminds me so much of his cousin Mark McVeigh, and he'd be playing reserves as well in this day and age.

[Remi Moses]

Yeah, that worries me too.

Ditto for me. The player doesn't dictate where he plays, and Luke B loves versatility
Jake should stop whinging, and start performing .
One of the issues for him is that he didn't have a pre-season, and they'll want the planet plus the entire solar system and The Bont

[The Bulldogs Bite]

HYPOTHETICAL:

If we do trade our first pick, we need to give Dalrymple the opportunity to snare a gun mid with a top 20 pick. Obviously, we'd need to offload some quality to do so.

I don't love the idea, but if we were to bring in Carlisle, is Talia surplus and would he afford us a top 20 pick?

If Talia could get us a top 20 pick, absolutely.

Roberts is better than Talia and if we got Carlisle we'd only need one of them, given Hamling and Z Cordy are solid third tall types. We can draft another young key back if need be, too.

A few things concern me about Talia:

- His short reach. For a key defender, he has short arms which makes spoiling difficult. A lot of the key forwards now days are all 196cms+ which makes Talia undersized too.

- Disposal. It's improved but it's still bad, particularly under pressure.

- He's slow and his agility is average. He's OK running in straight lines and has good endurance but he'll always struggle v smart forwards, ie. he was poor v Pavlich for this reason.

For mine, a Carlisle/Roberts/Hamling trio gives us a great mix of height, reach and athleticism with solid skills. If we could get a top 20 pick for Talia whilst attaining Carlisle, it'd be a no brainer for me.

[Dry Rot]

Roberts is better than Talia

Interesting.

I don't see enough to make a call, but interested to see other's opinions.

[1eyedog]

Interesting.

I don't see enough to make a call, but interested to see other's opinions.

I have him slightly in front of Talia in terms of best 22 but like you I feel the sample size is small. I'm not sure why Talia was dropped to be honest, I thought he'd been good but there you go.

We've been talking about bringing in Carlisle and releasing Roughie but why haven't we played Tails and Roberts together so we could play Roughie in the ruck
sooner rather than go through the whole Cordy experiment.

[lemmon]

I'm not sure your post really has any relevance at all to mine, actually I'm pretty certain it doesn't.

I'm not rubber stamping his endurance or his running capacity, I was talking about his lack of pace. Sure he may have other strengths but pace isn't one of them. To be fair to the guy he hasn't even been a flashy goal kicker has he? He's been very underwhelming. I'm happy to rubber stamp him as a player capable of playing deep forward or nowhere atm; however, given his age and potential ceiling I'm also more than willing to retain him so he can develop the ability to play higher up the ground. Maybe he has trade relevance given his age and potential.

It's great that he's winning ball at VFL level but really I was discussing his relevance to the senior team, heck, Andrew Hooper dominated at VFL level.

Fair play, no problems with that, I just think it's a bit of a misnomer calling him a flashy goal kicker when all VFL minutes are in the midfield and the vast majority of the time he spent in the AFL side was on the wing. I agree it hasn't worked. With his skill set aerobically and lack of pace he really needs to find more ball on the inside which has body should be mature enough to start doing.

[boydogs]

Roberts is better than Talia

Different players, Roberts is a better mark but slow whilst Talia can match it with the Riewoldt types

[GVGjr]

GVGjr, technically you are correct that we didn't draft a round one pick last draft, but I think bringing in Boyd counters that. Having said that I think we should keep our first round pick this year.

I actually acknowledged that in my summary. 2 picks in 2013 (picks 1 and 4) but nothing in 2014.

[1eyedog]

Fair play, no problems with that, I just think it's a bit of a misnomer calling him a flashy goal kicker when all VFL minutes are in the midfield and the vast majority of the time he spent in the AFL side was on the wing. I agree it hasn't worked. With his skill set aerobically and lack of pace he really needs to find more ball on the inside which has body should be mature enough to start doing.

Agree with that and I retract the term 'flashy goal kicker' because it is borne out of frustration with him rather than an accurate assessment of his output. As someone else mentioned earlier he needs to play team football and I guess that was my clumsily made point.

He'll struggle to break into the side for a while I'd say given that players in there atm are pretty versatile. What was disappointing in his last outing was when he had the ball he seemed to be in two or three minds what to do with it, consequently, he turned the ball over with dinky little kicks around his body.

He's young though and there's not much doubt he has sublime skills.

[Happy Days]

For mine, a Carlisle/Roberts/Hamling trio gives us a great mix of height, reach and athleticism with solid skills. If we could get a top 20 pick for Talia whilst attaining Carlisle, it'd be a no brainer for me.

Great post TBB.

We won't get a top 20 pick for Talia (we won't), but it would be worth getting in St Kilda's ear about it. They've kind of shot themselves in the foot by recruiting a really neat, nice little defensive prospect in Bruce and turning him into a gun young forward.

I actually rate Talia; he was fantastic up until the Freo game and I would be more than happy to keep him if and when none of this eventuates, but if we get Carlisle then he's the one we could make some dividends on.

[stefoid]

I actually acknowledged that in my summary. 2 picks in 2013 (picks 1 and 4) but nothing in 2014.

I dont have any problem with using a first round pick on a proven quality young player, particularly with our age profile the way it is. Draft picks are always risky - if you can get the player now that you hope the draft pick might eventually turn into, then its a no-brainer to do it. Its just eliminating the risk.

Trading for unproven players or players with a track record of non-performance, on the other hand, is risky, so unless you are paying virtually nothing, I dont see it helping much in the long term. Hamling we got for nothing. Biggs for a neglible downgrade. these are good trades. Our trading since JMac came on board has been prudent (whether by accident or design) I think the lowest pick JMac has traded away (apart from Toyd) was pick 43 for Stevens. (edit: no we got Crameri, for a 2nd rounder, but that was another case of a proven young player - we knew exactly what we were getting). Pick 43 for Stevens was far riskier than pick 27 for Crameri.

[The Doctor]

Must keep Talia regardless of whether another KP comes in.

He is a pure defender and will be very good at it. He is the logical replacement for Morris who must be close to retirement. With Talia, Roberts, Hamling and possibly Carlisle we will have for once some depth in our KPD personnel, especially when we can add Roughead to the mix. How often have we been able to say that?

[Twodogs]

Must keep Talia regardless of whether another KP comes in.

He is a pure defender and will be very good at it. He is the logical replacement for Morris who must be close to retirement. With Talia, Roberts, Hamling and possibly Carlisle we will have for once some depth in our KPD personnel, especially when we can add Roughead to the mix. How often have we been able to say that?

And Easton Wood. In fact I reckon Wood will take Morris spot. But Talia stays because he is a beast and we don't have another beast to play in defence.

[Mantis]

I actually acknowledged that in my summary. 2 picks in 2013 (picks 1 and 4) but nothing in 2014.

But do draft numbers actually mean anything once the players are inside your 4 walls?

[1eyedog]

Must keep Talia regardless of whether another KP comes in.

He is a pure defender and will be very good at it. He is the logical replacement for Morris who must be close to retirement. With Talia, Roberts, Hamling and possibly Carlisle we will have for once some depth in our KPD personnel, especially when we can add Roughead to the mix. How often have we been able to say that?

That's fine but if our chosen three stay injury free the fourth / fifth will seek opportunity elsewhere. I don't see how we can retain them all if all of them aren't playing. You don't keep good KPP as back up, they just get big offers elsewhere or get disgruntled.

[Go_Dogs]

But do draft numbers actually mean anything once the players are inside your 4 walls?

Of course not. But in order to continue to develop our list, we need high end picks to allow us to select high end talent - which is the point being made. Classy flankers are great and we've grabbed a bunch in 2014 but if we want an A grade midfielder we'll need an early pick.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

That's fine but if our chosen three stay injury free the fourth / fifth will seek opportunity elsewhere. I don't see how we can retain them all if all of them aren't playing. You don't keep good KPP as back up, they just get big offers elsewhere or get disgruntled.

Yep.

I think Talia can develop into a good player but if reports were true about him wanting 400-500K he's not worth that and he's expendable.

Happy to keep him but we need to be astute in our list management.

[Twodogs]

Yep.

I think Talia can develop into a good player but if reports were true about him wanting 400-500K he's not worth that and he's expendable.

Happy to keep him but we need to be astute in our list management.

Football wages are about to inflate though. There's considerably more money going to be payed to players. Maybe that sort of money will be right for players of Talia's ability.

[GVGjr]

But do draft numbers actually mean anything once the players are inside your 4 walls?

I think so. The best players go early and you are more likely to find star players early. There are always exceptions but trading away first round selections is not something a rebuilding club should do too often. It's a bit different when you are contending.

[jeemak]

But do draft numbers actually mean anything once the players are inside your 4 walls?

People say they don't, but they do.

[mjp]

But do draft numbers actually mean anything once the players are inside your 4 walls?

Well - they do if members of the match committee were invested in making the selection. :-)

Most high draft picks are at least 'given a chance' regardless of 2nd tier form. The same cannot be said of players selected from pick 50-onwards. Once a player is actually IN the team, he controls his own destiny to an extent - but 'IN' does not mean one game. 'IN' means getting an extended run of games (somewhere between 3 and 8) to create an impression.

[jeemak]

Everyone needs to remember that Dangerfield is a RESTRICTED free agent. That means that Adelaide can hold onto him by simply matching an offer to him. This means the deal would need to be a mega offer.

Free Agency is there to top up with older, unrestricted free agents once the project is 95% complete. We're not at that point as yet. We'd be far better placed to just keep drafting and developing at this stage. Trading is the way to go at this point, but only at the right price.

Norf overspent on Higgins, only to realise it effectively squeezed out Greenwood. Greenwood is more of a loss than Higgins is a gain for them. Restricted free agents come at top dollar. Unrestricted free agents are where the value is. Problem for us is it's too early to go down that path.

I don't know whether Greenwood is a player who is capable of kicking multiple goals often, which Higgins is. Higgins has been excellent for the Roos this year, his performance last week in particular was outstanding.

Greenwood is a good honest player, but one that it easier to replace than a player like Higgins if he's used correctly - which he hadn't been for his last year or so with us.

We tend to underestimate the value of guys that are clean and can chip in for a few goals a game.

[S Coast Simon]

But do draft numbers actually mean anything once the players are inside your 4 walls?
I agree the number isn't as important as application. Look at some of the legends of the game not high draft picks but turned into champions through hard work

[hujsh]

But do draft numbers actually mean anything once the players are inside your 4 walls?

I guess it does if you're Jack Watts

[bulldogtragic]

Jack Darling?

[GVGjr]

Jack Darling?

Do you think he would leave the West or is this something that is being speculated?

[Remi Moses]

I don't know whether Greenwood is a player who is capable of kicking multiple goals often, which Higgins is. Higgins has been excellent for the Roos this year, his performance last week in particular was outstanding.

Greenwood is a good honest player, but one that it easier to replace than a player like Higgins if he's used correctly - which he hadn't been for his last year or so with us.

We tend to underestimate the value of guys that are clean and can chip in for a few goals a game.

Higgins has been good against the good and ordinary teams, but against the big boys ( sydney, and hawthorn) he was average.
They've recruited to win a flag , and Higgins won't be that player that makes a difference.

[bulldogtragic]

Do you think he would leave the West or is this something that is being speculated?

Question only.

I think he's a natural forward and can't seem to get played down forward permanently - although getting a bit tonight. Perhaps CHF at our club with our kids might tempt him.

[Twodogs]

Jack Darling?


It's worth asking about his plans. As you say he would fit nicely into our forward line as he playes the CHF role pretty well as well as being pretty handy closer to goal. He would bring our attack a bit of flexibity and take some of the pressure of Tom Boyd as the sole tall target and feeing sole responsibility to get to every marking contest.

I don't think it would be easy but it's a situation that could be of a lot of benefit for both partys. Darling gets a significant role in a developing team and we put another part of the puzzle in place. West Coast get a high draft pick.

[jeemak]

Higgins has been good against the good and ordinary teams, but against the big boys ( sydney, and hawthorn) he was average.
They've recruited to win a flag , and Higgins won't be that player that makes a difference.

Which player that could make that difference was available? Who as a restricted FA at the time that cost Norf nothing was better than Higgins?

Higgins has made their talent profile higher, he's tackling and kicking goals for them on a bit over a moderate wage for his experience and ability. I really don't see the issue in them picking him up for a small hit to their salary cap, considering they're not exactly flush with marquee players.

I'd get the criticism if he wasn't playing well, but he is.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Agree Jeemak. Higgins has been a good pick up for them.

[The Doctor]

We've been linked to Robbie Tarrant who is a FA

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/robbie-tarrant-high-on-north-melbournes-rivals-hit-list/story-fnp04d70-1227404611366

[LostDoggy]

Andrew Gaff is really starting to put it all together this season. Pace, outside run and carry would be a massive asset to our current midfield group. Think he signed an extension last year from memory but I would love him at our club.

[azabob]

Jack Darling?

He would be ideal but no chance of it happening.

He is a Perth boy and without doing any research my gut feel is that West Coast are a fairly youngish team?

[Rocco Jones]

I don't like to talk delistings only midway through the season but I think the discussion paints a positive picture of our list at the moment.

Has it ever been harder to find three guys we are willing to let go of? IMO we have great depth in players who are a decent chance to 'make it'.

Fuller is the only player I see clearly in the delist basket.

Darley shows a bit in the VFL however I really can't see him making it at the top level. He has the ability to kick it at an elite level, however his decision making is poor. Darley also doesn't seem either defensive or attacking enough to play as a small defender.

[G-Mo77]

Fuller and Darley would top my list as well Rocco. I'd be happy for Darley to stay on a rookie contract but would like to at least give him another shot at it before making any decisions. He's had an injury interrupted preseason so a little early to call it. Prudden's close to getting his first game but would be a candidate if he doesn't get there.

You've then got an unsigned Talia. I think Cordy is out of contract as well do we continue with him? Redpath?

Does Morris go around again?

[jeemak]

I think you can pencil in Fuller, Minson and Morris as not likely to be listed with us next year.

Agree with G-Mo77, Darley shouldn't have a decision made on him until he's provided with another opportunity to show whether he can play at the level.

[G-Mo77]

I think you can pencil in Fuller, Minson and Morris as not likely to be listed with us next year.

Agree with G-Mo77, Darley shouldn't have a decision made on him until he's provided with another opportunity to show whether he can play at the level.

Minson's got another year on his contract.

[jeemak]

Minson's got another year on his contract.

I see. I thought this was it.

Still, I don't think he'll be playing for us next year meaning we may find ourselves with an additional second or third rounder.