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View Full Version : St Kilda spurred on by Bulldogs' renewed bark



bornadog
08-05-2015, 03:40 PM
Link (http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/st-kilda-spurred-on-by-bulldogs-renewed-bark-20150508-ggwzug.html)

The paths of St Kilda and the Western Bulldogs cross again on Saturday when they clash at Etihad Stadium. But their stories seem to have run parallel for some time.


The Saints and Bulldogs remain the last of the Victorian AFL clubs to have won only one premiership. They've both endured moments when their very survival seemed doubtful, with St Kilda in financial crisis several times during the 1980s and '90s, and the Dogs a whisker away from merging in 1996.


While both have had periods of on-field success, they've fallen just short of the summit, cementing popular reputations as hard-luck stories, with even those near-misses coinciding.


Such as 1997, when the Dogs and Saints looked like clashing in the ultimate Cinderella grand final, only for a Johnny-come-lately in Adelaide to spoil the party, with the Crows famously pipping the Bulldogs at the post in the preliminary final and running over St Kilda the following week in the big one.


The symmetry was still going on at the end of the "noughties". St Kilda was arguably a toe-poke and an errant bounce away from back-to-back flags in 2009-10, having both years beaten the Western Bulldogs to get to the grand final. The second of those finals clashes was the Dogs' third straight preliminary final defeat.


And that was it for both clubs as far as meaningful success went. St Kilda scraped into the following year's finals in their last season under Ross Lyon. The Bulldogs would finish 2011 10th, two-and-a-half games out of the eight, having sacked coach Rodney Eade in-season. Both had plenty more bottoming out to do.


But the wheel is beginning to turn again, football's cycle of boom and bust reassuring evidence for the AFL chiefs that at least on field, equalisation measures are working.


Superficially, at least, right now there seems less common ground between St Kilda and the Western Bulldogs than usual. The Dogs are third on the ladder with a 4-1 record, St Kilda a mirror image of that in 16th spot. But is there really that big a gap?


Indeed, while the Saints will have been studying the Dogs closely, attempting to bring them unstuck in this round-six meeting, a longer-term view might have seen them cheering on with the rest of the football world. For the Dogs are an example to which St Kilda can realistically aspire.


Since the end of 2010, both clubs' win-loss records are almost identical, the only difference in how those victories were spread.


The Bulldogs have won 33 of their 93 games, the Saints 34 from as many. The first couple of seasons after that year saw St Kilda win 24 games to the Dogs' 14. Since then, the Saints have won just 10 and the Dogs 19. And that distribution isn't so surprising given how those seasons panned out.


In their last season under Lyon, the Saints started poorly but rallied strongly to win eight of their last 10 games and finish the premiership season sixth. The following year, under Scott Watters, the Saints were still thereabouts, finishing ninth.


Of course, the best clubs are able to compete and regenerate simultaneously. But playing the kids is easier said than done when finals are still a realistic goal. Which they obviously weren't going to be for the Bulldogs a long way out from September 2011, and even more so the following season when they won just five games and lost the last 11 straight.


It's why in recruiting, and now it seems performance terms, the Dogs are a year or two ahead of the Saints. They blooded no fewer than 18 players over those two seasons to St Kilda's 13.


Three in particular – Tom Liberatore, Luke Dahlhaus and Mitch Wallis – have become staples, all having racked up 60 games or more, and there's been other handy pick-ups in Tory Dickson, Jason Johannisen and Michael Talia. St Kilda's strike rate from those couple of years is lower, with Jack Newnes the only 50-gamer as yet.


The Bulldogs caught another decent-sized wave with the 2013 debuts of Jack Macrae, Jake Stringer, both already in the upper echelon of the Dogs' best 22, and added the class of Marcus Bontempelli last year.


But St Kilda can also see the next set of breaks coming. Jimmy Webster and Tom Curren in 2013. And a very classy pair in Luke Dunstan and Jack Billings, the latter pair perhaps the Saints' Bontempellis.


St Kilda have had 18 players debut since the start of 2013, all but one still on the books. Consider then the influx of recruits from other clubs still, in terms of experience, relative newcomers such as the impressive Josh Bruce, Tom Hickey, Billy Longer and Tim Membrey. It's left the Saints with an incredibly large group of young talent beginning to make their mark.


While veterans Nick Riewoldt, Leigh Montagna, Adam Schneider, Sam Fisher, Farren Ray and Sean Dempster inflate the Saints' games average beyond rivals such as Gold Coast and GWS, the vast bulk of the list is green indeed, to the extent St Kilda have no fewer than 30 players who have played 33 games or less.


The Saints are coming along, and the signs are more encouraging than a 1-4 record would suggest, last week's narrow loss to Essendon a missed opportunity, ditto the opener against GWS, a bad second half against Carlton bringing undone the good work of the first, a thrashing at the hands of Collingwood the only complete bust.


There's more evenness and consistency about St Kilda already, the Saints having won more quarters than even Geelong, the next step clearly converting those near-things to victories.


But Saturday's opponent should be the perfect case study in how to go about doing that. St Kilda and the Western Bulldogs have shared a lot of common ground over the years. It's a shorter path than many would believe to them both residing in the more desirable postcodes of the AFL ladder, too.

Twodogs
08-05-2015, 04:22 PM
Bring it.

LostDoggy
08-05-2015, 04:54 PM
Let's get it on!!!!!

bornadog
08-05-2015, 05:01 PM
Smash them

ledge
08-05-2015, 05:11 PM
Interesting article , saints are following our lead but maybe two years behind. We both could be the heavy weights in 2 to 3 years.

bornadog
08-05-2015, 05:12 PM
Interesting article , saints are following our lead but maybe two years behind. We both could be the heavy weights in 2 to 3 years.

I think they are way behind us. They don't have the young talent we have on our list.

Ghost Dog
08-05-2015, 05:16 PM
Release the hounds....

G-Mo77
08-05-2015, 05:16 PM
I think they are way behind us. They don't have the young talent we have on our list.

But even over the last 2 seasons a lot were skeptical on our young players.

LostDoggy
08-05-2015, 06:19 PM
..."And a very classy pair in Luke Dunstan and Jack Billings, the latter pair perhaps the Saints' Bontempellis."

ummmmm ok.

F'scary
08-05-2015, 06:33 PM
..."And a very classy pair in Luke Dunstan and Jack Billings, the latter pair perhaps the Saints' Bontempellis."

ummmmm ok.

they are good players...but not that good.

Greystache
08-05-2015, 09:38 PM
..."And a very classy pair in Luke Dunstan and Jack Billings, the latter pair perhaps the Saints' Bontempellis."

ummmmm ok.

The big knock on Dunstan is his disposal. He's a man child inside midfielder, hardly a Bontempelli clone.

LostDoggy
08-05-2015, 09:51 PM
they are good players...but not that good.

Not fair. Nobody is.

Happy Days
08-05-2015, 10:38 PM
The big knock on Dunstan is his disposal. He's a man child inside midfielder, hardly a Bontempelli clone.

I think they mean Billings, who projects as a "really nice neat little player".

EDIT - Didn't see "pair", which makes it more annoying. Square peg, round hole, etc. Comparison articles suck.

Remi Moses
08-05-2015, 11:31 PM
I think they are way behind us. They don't have the young talent we have on our list.

Work with a Saints fan who thinks the same .
Reckons they've got some decent kids, but not in the same ballpark as ours

SonofScray
08-05-2015, 11:37 PM
Hopefully we smash it out of them and cripple their confidence for many years.

jeemak
08-05-2015, 11:59 PM
It will be interesting to see how Billings and Bontempelli finish their careers. Whilst I obviously love the Bont, I think Billings once he puts on some weight and adds strength will be an absolute gun.

I'm really looking forward to seeing him play tomorrow, as I'd have been pretty happy in taking him if he'd have slipped to us.

The Bulldogs Bite
09-05-2015, 12:13 AM
Billings will be a good player, but he's very small. Height isn't everything (ie. Boomer Harvey) but I think it'll be one of his greatest challenges, particularly if/when he moves into the middle. He doesn't have the pace of a Harvey/Dahlhaus and looks much more of an outside type.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but Bonti is/will be miles ahead.

Happy Days
09-05-2015, 12:17 AM
Billings will be a good player, but he's very small. Height isn't everything (ie. Boomer Harvey) but I think it'll be one of his greatest challenges, particularly if/when he moves into the middle. He doesn't have the pace of a Harvey/Dahlhaus and looks much more of an outside type.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but Bonti is/will be miles ahead.

Yep.

I really think the paradigm has shifted on the makeup of an AFL midfielder. "Being a gun" no longer really cuts it, as a lot more of it is predicated on athletic attributes. Looking at the career arc of a guy like Marc Murphy really reflects this. I was probably hard on Billings but I see him projecting as a very good half forward, not a game breaking midfielder.

The Combine is going to become of far greater use as a recruitment tool as the game continues to develop.

jeemak
09-05-2015, 12:49 AM
So after an injury affected draft year you don't think a guy that stands at 184 and probably now sitting at 80kg in his second year on a list has a great deal of scope to improve?

I think you guys are kidding yourselves and possibly looking at the midfield in a way that is a bit outdated already. It takes all types these days, and whilst we're lucky to have a guy like Bont on our list - because he can pretty much do everything right now - players like Billings end up finding a way to catch up or already start ahead of the game like a Joel Selwood (how well would Bont and Billings be regarded if they started their careers at Geelong in 2007 like Selwood did?).

Billings has the pedigree to play forward and do well, and also play through the middle and do well. For mine he's a genuine forward utility who can use the ball well, possibly the hardest type of player to find as a recruit. Whilst the Bont has started his career really well, he and Billings won't be that far apart soon enough.

Remi Moses
09-05-2015, 01:23 AM
Agree with that ^^
Billings will be a super player, but the point of difference is The Bont's size .
He can play just about everywhere

The Bulldogs Bite
09-05-2015, 01:24 AM
So after an injury affected draft year you don't think a guy that stands at 184 and probably now sitting at 80kg in his second year on a list has a great deal of scope to improve?

He's on the small side. He'll never be an imposing figure, even in the way of a Selwood/Mitchell who are quite stocky. Billings has an entirely different frame.

Of course he will improve. I don't see him becoming a top 10-15 player in the competition though.


I think you guys are kidding yourselves and possibly looking at the midfield in a way that is a bit outdated already. It takes all types these days, and whilst we're lucky to have a guy like Bont on our list - because he can pretty much do everything right now - players like Billings end up finding a way to catch up or already start ahead of the game like a Joel Selwood (how well would Bont and Billings be regarded if they started their careers at Geelong in 2007 like Selwood did?).

Nobody has said he can't/won't have a good career, or that everyone must be 194cms. However at pick 3, Billings isn't somebody you can build a team around. For mine, he is/will be a classy footballer, but not a match winner in the vein of Bonti and far from a player of Selwood's influence. Totally different styles.


Billings has the pedigree to play forward and do well, and also play through the middle and do well. For mine he's a genuine forward utility who can use the ball well, possibly the hardest type of player to find as a recruit. Whilst the Bont has started his career really well, he and Billings won't be that far apart soon enough.

You sound a little defensive jeemak.

I think Billings will play well up forward and well through the midfield at times, but personally I don't see him getting anywhere near Bonti or Selwood or Mitchell or even Martin. He'll never be a physical beast - which is what the best mids had/have (Judd, Cousins, Kerr, Swan, Pendlebury, Fyfe, Hayes, Watson, Selwood, Mitchell and even our own Libba) and he doesn't have the pace to mirror guys like S. Hill. Billings' greatest attributes are his footy IQ and his ball use.

It doesn't mean he can't be a good player, but in my opinion he won't become a top 10-20 player/mid.

jeemak
09-05-2015, 01:50 AM
Sorry, I just read that you said that Billings was very small, and that Happy Days suggested that Bontempelli has set a new paradigm for what a midfielder needs to be if dominance is what's being sought after.

If I sounded defencive by suggesting that Billings is 184cm and probably 80kg in his second year, and that midfields are turning towards more diverse structures then I apologise, I didn't mean to. I still think they are though.

Robbie Gray wasn't much of a midfielder utility for the first few years he played, nor was Ablett. But in 2015 after a good 17 preseasons between them they seem to be pretty much as good as it gets in that regard.

I think I'll wait before I start going all in on Billings.

ledge
09-05-2015, 08:54 AM
We have Honeychurch and Daniel and Liberatore none of them are tall and only one has a stocky build, but all
Three have the ability to win games in my opinion, Billings probably rates above two of them.

GVGjr
09-05-2015, 10:20 AM
Billings is a unique player and reminds me a bit of Kade Simpson but at the moment he is more of a forward than a pure midfielder.

The Bulldogs Bite
09-05-2015, 12:12 PM
Sorry, I just read that you said that Billings was very small, and that Happy Days suggested that Bontempelli has set a new paradigm for what a midfielder needs to be if dominance is what's being sought after.

If I sounded defencive by suggesting that Billings is 184cm and probably 80kg in his second year, and that midfields are turning towards more diverse structures then I apologise, I didn't mean to. I still think they are though.

Robbie Gray wasn't much of a midfielder utility for the first few years he played, nor was Ablett. But in 2015 after a good 17 preseasons between them they seem to be pretty much as good as it gets in that regard.

I think I'll wait before I start going all in on Billings.

Perhaps Billings will become a dominant player, but I think he lacks the traits of all the best mids/forwards. He'll never be a physical beast in the contest because he hasn't got the size but more importantly it's not his style either,and whilst Gray and Ablett took some time they were always quite powerful through the hips and good in the contest. They simply needed to work harder/build their tanks. The natural instincts to be a dominant mid were there though. Gray's knee injury set him back a little too.


We have Honeychurch and Daniel and Liberatore none of them are tall and only one has a stocky build, but all
Three have the ability to win games in my opinion, Billings probably rates above two of them.

I like Honeychurch (and the snippets of Daniel) but they are nowhere near match winners, nor top 10-20 players of the competition, and they never will be (which is fine).

Libba is already one of the best mids in the competition and is a physical and competitive animal, even if he isn't the biggest (like Selwood, like Mitchell).

Happy Days
09-05-2015, 04:30 PM
Jeemak was right...

jeemak
09-05-2015, 05:43 PM
Jeemak was right...

I can assure you I'm not taking any pleasure in it.

We gave him a little too much latitude today, and he burned us. Nice finisher.

Mantis
09-05-2015, 05:45 PM
I can assure you I'm not taking any pleasure in it.

We gave him a little too much latitude today, and he burned us. Nice finisher.

A little too much?? That's being generous.

I watched with interest how Hunter tackled playing on Billings late in the game.. To say he was interested in manning up would be a bold statement which was disappointing considering he has a bit to prove.

The Bulldogs Bite
09-05-2015, 05:47 PM
A little too much?? That's being generous.

I watched with interest how Hunter tackled playing on Billings late in the game.. To say he was interested in manning up would be a bold statement which was disappointing considering he has a bit to prove.

Yep - I was disgusted with Hunter and his performance.

Billings was good but didn't have an opponent anywhere near him in the last quarter.

jeemak
09-05-2015, 05:53 PM
A little too much?? That's being generous.

I watched with interest how Hunter tackled playing on Billings late in the game.. To say he was interested in manning up would be a bold statement which was disappointing considering he has a bit to prove.


Yep - I was disgusted with Hunter and his performance.

Billings was good but didn't have an opponent anywhere near him in the last quarter.

I commented in the Game Day thread that Hunter had better get a defencive side very quickly. It was clear once he got onto the field he didn't want to get his hands dirty, when that's precisely what he should have been doing. It will see him discarded if he doesn't, irrespective of who his father is.

bulldogtragic
09-05-2015, 06:00 PM
I commented in the Game Day thread that Hunter had better get a defencive side very quickly. It was clear once he got onto the field he didn't want to get his hands dirty, when that's precisely what he should have been doing. It will see him discarded if he doesn't, irrespective of who his father is.

Yep. I interpreted his body language as not caring. He was flat footed, not moving to the next contest, not near his opponent and gave us SFA. Personally, I'd drop him from the team next week.

The Bulldogs Bite
09-05-2015, 06:02 PM
I commented in the Game Day thread that Hunter had better get a defencive side very quickly. It was clear once he got onto the field he didn't want to get his hands dirty, when that's precisely what he should have been doing. It will see him discarded if he doesn't, irrespective of who his father is.

Agreed. I said the same thing prior to the game starting, and unfortunately Hunter failed to prove me wrong. I wouldn't play him next week.