The Confrontational Nature of Our Structure

[Happy Days]

Now that the dust has settled a bit I think this is worth talking about.

I think we can all agree that Ayce Cordy is not a capable ruckman, in terms of actually contesting in the ruck. But after giving up 5 goals to nothing and deciding to totally abandon the concept of ruckwork, we actually beat the Dockers.

By pushing Ayce out we were able to stretch Fremantle and dominate many facets of the contest. And let's face it, we were going to lose the ruck contests no matter what we did, so maybe it is a case of accentuating the positives by hiding the negatives. But it also gave Sandilands free reign to give Fyfe the silver service necessary to be the dominant clearance player on the ground, something which played a major part in us not winning.

I suppose you can't argue with results, but it is eminently frustrating to watch at times. So I ask, is our current structure flaw, a positional paradigm shift, or just working and frustrating because it defies conventional football wisdom?

EDIT - Please excuse the typo in the headline, I don't really like to be confrontational but I can definitely spell it.

[bornadog]

The interesting thing is Freo had 4 more centre clearances, but those 4 probably cost us the game. So we need to still win the centre even if we don't win the tap out. Several times Sandilands tapped the ball straight down Fyfe's throat.

[Axe Man]

If Bevo doesn't want to play a traditional ruckman then we need to find a tall athlete in the Blicavs mould that can at least nullify the opposition ruckman to some extent, whilst providing run around the ground. I just don't believe that Cordy's supposed mobility makes up for his totally ineffectual ruck work. Perhaps we try to develop one of those American College basketballers that were recently tested?

[chef]

The interesting thing is Freo had 4 more centre clearances, but those 4 probably cost us the game. So we need to still win the centre even if with don't win the tap out. Several times Sandilands tapped the ball straight down Fyfe's throat.

I don't think you can that it cost us the game.

[jeemak]

I wouldn't have thought it's a paradigm shift, and I have little doubt that if we had a ruck who could contest better in the actual ruck contests and provide what Beveridge needs around the ground they'd be playing instead of Cordy. But we don't.

Perhaps tagging Fyfe may have helped our cause, perhaps that would have exposed us elsewhere on the ground. Maybe even being a little more defencively minded at the centre bounces may have tipped the ledger in our favour.

It seems the coach has a way he wants to play, that to some extent determines the opposition's set-up and strategy to not be of major importance - for now. This was eluded to when he commented that we only started concentrating on St Kilda the day prior to the game, which surprised a lot of us. I would suggest that for now the coach is wanting to instil some fundamentals into the team and have it develop on his terms, irrespective of what the opposition is or isn't doing, or who they have playing for them.

[LostDoggy]

I think we can concede the ruck.

I think we can play our style without tagging their best midfielder.

I don't think we can do both.

[FrediKanoute]

I think we had a lot of passengers today. Jong, Wally, Hunter, all had poor to average games. Conceding the ruck is one thing, not tagging is another, but for me what defines whether we go well or not is how even a spread of contributor's we have in a game.

[Remi Moses]

I wouldn't have thought it's a paradigm shift, and I have little doubt that if we had a ruck who could contest better in the actual ruck contests and provide what Beveridge needs around the ground they'd be playing instead of Cordy. But we don't.

Perhaps tagging Fyfe may have helped our cause, perhaps that would have exposed us elsewhere on the ground. Maybe even being a little more defencively minded at the centre bounces may have tipped the ledger in our favour.

It seems the coach has a way he wants to play, that to some extent determines the opposition's set-up and strategy to not be of major importance - for now. This was eluded to when he commented that we only started concentrating on St Kilda the day prior to the game, which surprised a lot of us. I would suggest that for now the coach is wanting to instil some fundamentals into the team and have it develop on his terms, irrespective of what the opposition is or isn't doing, or who they have playing for them.

He basically stated we were in exploration mode in the pre-season.

[Remi Moses]

The interesting thing is Freo had 4 more centre clearances, but those 4 probably cost us the game. So we need to still win the centre even if with don't win the tap out. Several times Sandilands tapped the ball straight down Fyfe's throat.

Wouldn't think it cost us the game.
Costly was the errors at the end of the game .
The Wallis nutmeg, and the Stevens waiting for the ball moment.
Costly

[Greystache]

The interesting thing is Freo had 4 more centre clearances, but those 4 probably cost us the game. So we need to still win the centre even if with don't win the tap out. Several times Sandilands tapped the ball straight down Fyfe's throat.

That's the key point. The Age reported Fremantle kicked 8 goals from stoppages to our 3. So it wasn't just they won more volume, clearly had better quality clearances on at least a number of occasions.

[jeemak]

I'd like to see how that number compares to last year's game against the Dockers, where we dominated possession and basically forced a high stoppage game.

[Sedat]

That's the key point. The Age reported Fremantle kicked 8 goals from stoppages to our 3. So it wasn't just they won more volume, clearly had better quality clearances on at least a number of occasions.
I'm in really weird territory here, possibly writing a defence of Cordy :D. If Minno was playing instead, Freo might not have gotten as many goals from stoppages but our lack of run and spread might have contributed to us only scoring 8-9 goals instead of 14? Maybe Sandi would have also drifted forward unopposed and gotten onto the scoreboard more?

I am fascinated by our ruck strategy at the moment - not saying I like it.

[Ozza]

That's the key point. The Age reported Fremantle kicked 8 goals from stoppages to our 3. So it wasn't just they won more volume, clearly had better quality clearances on at least a number of occasions.

I thought the age had Freo kicking 4.5 to our 2.2 for stoppages? In Lyon's presser he said 10 shots to 4 from stoppages - so I don't know what the numbers were!

In terms of what won or lost the game - I would have said that getting absolutely bullied around the ball for a big portion of the contest (certainly most of the first half) was the most telling factor.

[Twodogs]

I'm in really weird territory here, possibly writing a defence of Cordy :D. If Minno was playing instead, Freo might not have gotten as many goals from stoppages but our lack of run and spread might have contributed to us only scoring 8-9 goals instead of 14? Maybe Sandi would have also drifted forward unopposed and gotten onto the scoreboard more?

I am fascinated by our ruck strategy at the moment - not saying I like it.

I like that we are thinking outside of the square. It might be a more damaging tactic if we had a player who could damage the opposition around the ground more than Cordy to perform the role.

[bornadog]

I thought the age had Freo kicking 4.5 to our 2.2 for stoppages? .

there you go 13 points.

[Mantis]

It might be a more damaging tactic if we had a player who could damage the opposition around the ground more than Cordy to perform the role.

Agree with that.. If Cordy was playing like Dean Cox did in his prime (tall ruck rover), then you wouldn't mind as much his complete inability to compete in the ruck contests, but he isn't which is only adding to the frustrations.

[The bulldog tragician]

The fascinating thing is despite all those unconventional tactics and key players down, we were level with the best team in the comp deep into the last quarter and just one or two fumbles/poor options ine the last 5 minutes away from winning. Imagine if Stringer had been even 20% better, Jong had produced his usual 20+ touches, and Honey had been right...

I'm fascinated by what Beveridge is up to, I don't for one moment pretend to understand it, but I think we were still the youngest group going round on the weekend against a big bodied team in their premiership window. So I'm putting my faith in what's going on. The future is unbelievably bright.

[Greystache]

I am fascinated by our ruck strategy at the moment - not saying I like it.

That's where I'm finding myself too.

I've never rated ruck work, and as I'm sure everyone would be aware, don't rate a ruckman who offers nothing but hitouts at all. So I actually think Beveridge's approach is ahead of the game, what I don't understand is why we're playing Cordy in lieu of a ruckman. He's played key forward twice this season for a combined 4 possessions and 0 goals, now we're playing him in the ruck where he can't contest, only so we can push him forward where he struggles to have an impact. It's almost a half-pregnant approach. If anything I'd like to see us bite the bullet and play 5 genuine mids and make a strong bodied mid be the token ruck.

A player like Daniel Cross could be our number 1 ruck, or Andrejs Everitt, even Jordan Kelly.

[mjp]

Can we at least agree that with liber out we need Bontempelli trying to win clearances rather that contesting the ruck?
When that happened late in the 4th I honestly thought we were trying to lose the stoppage.

[Ghost Dog]

I think we had a lot of passengers today. Jong, Wally, Hunter, all had poor to average games. Conceding the ruck is one thing, not tagging is another, but for me what defines whether we go well or not is how even a spread of contributor's we have in a game.

I saw TBoyd get visibly annoyed with Hunter, spearing low balls inside 50 when they should be going in high. Cordy Z, JMac, Nathan and a few others had good games in the VFL, so would be surprised he would be in again next week. Hate to put the mozzie on him but seems a bit like Higgins Mk II - flash, dash, but simple footy goes out the window now and then.

[bornadog]

Be interesting what happens next week.

[stefoid]

Why cant Cordy get a hand to the ball? hes 204cm!!? OK, Sandilands is one thing, but Surely Cordy is in the top 5 tallest players in the comp?

[ratsmac]

For me I don't think Cordy is doing enough. I given up on him ever being a good ruckman (in the short term anyhow) and he isn't really setting the world on fire around the ground. He does show glimpses but I it's not enough to keep getting games IMO. If we are trying different things why don't we try Hamling in the "mobile ruck" position. He's quick, athletic, tall (194cm), can defend and has played forward. Surely he couldn't do worse than Cordy in the ruck and he could possibly be better around the ground. I don't know what kind of a tank he has but if this is the way Bevo wants to go until we find the type of ruckman he is after, he could be a viable option.

[westdog54]

Why cant Cordy get a hand to the ball? hes 204cm!!? OK, Sandilands is one thing, but Surely Cordy is in the top 5 tallest players in the comp?

As a ruckman you are only as tall as your vertical leap or your ablity to contest body to body. Look at Naitinui. He's almost impossible to compete with at a centre bounce because he's already flown over your head before you've left the ground.

Was it Malcolm Blight that ran Trent Ormond-Allen in the ruck all those years ago?

I certainly don't understand our ruck strategy at the moment but I wouldn't say its been totally ineffective. Freo were simply good enough to still win the clearances.

[soupman]

Can we at least agree that with liber out we need Bontempelli trying to win clearances rather that contesting the ruck?
When that happened late in the 4th I honestly thought we were trying to lose the stoppage.

I've seen this mentioned a couple of times.

There were a few times in the match where due to having no disgnated ruckman we were caught short and had to throw someone who wasn't even a token ruck (as Stevens, Goodes and Crameri had been) as a stopgap measure. There was one in the last quarter where Boyd had to run all the way from full forward to get to a centre bounce just in time.

The Bont one saw all our mids look around and realising there wasn't enough time they threw him in. I don't think it was planned for Bonts to be rucking at all and from my recollection happened only once.

I doubt we would have instructed our 19 year old best mid to play ruck.

[whythelongface]

That's where I'm finding myself too.

I've never rated ruck work, and as I'm sure everyone would be aware, don't rate a ruckman who offers nothing but hitouts at all. So I actually think Beveridge's approach is ahead of the game, what I don't understand is why we're playing Cordy in lieu of a ruckman. He's played key forward twice this season for a combined 4 possessions and 0 goals, now we're playing him in the ruck where he can't contest, only so we can push him forward where he struggles to have an impact. It's almost a half-pregnant approach. If anything I'd like to see us bite the bullet and play 5 genuine mids and make a strong bodied mid be the token ruck.

A player like Daniel Cross could be our number 1 ruck, or Andrejs Everitt, even Jordan Kelly.


Interesting idea and certainly has merit. The issue I see would be how much of a toll would playing a bigger bodied mid against a ruckman take on the mid's body? Do we have any players that can undertake this role? I notice that we had Bonts in taking a centre bounce the other day - can't say I am huge fan of this as I am not sure what value this brings. Maybe Crameri could be given a shot (again not a fan of this concept) We may as well not have anyone compete in the ruck contest and go for a man on man approach and have a loose man in the centre who can tackle the ruckman if he tries to grab the ball.

The ruck contests around the ground are different as it is more congested and we often have another player come in over the top of the ruck contest.

In regards to the centre clearances -at least with Cordy he tries to compete in the ruck contests. This may nullify some of the direct clearances that the opposition receives. Against Sandilands this approach may not have worked as there were a number of instances where Freo won the centre clearance.

What I do like is that Bevo is open to experimentation. Whilst the set up on the weekend may not have been perfect we were in a position to win the game. That in itself is a commendable performance against the current flag favourites. Maybe as others have suggested we try Hamling.

Personally I would like to see Roughead as our ruck. Think he contests well and is good around the ground. He can go forward as well as dropping back. However this does weaken our defence and until we are satisfied that Roberts; Talia and Hamling (or we recruit another key defender) can cover the opposition forwards then Roughie will continue to play in a defensive role

[Greystache]

Interesting idea and certainly has merit. The issue I see would be how much of a toll would playing a bigger bodied mid against a ruckman take on the mid's body? Do we have any players that can undertake this role? I notice that we had Bonts in taking a centre bounce the other day - can't say I am huge fan of this as I am not sure what value this brings. Maybe Crameri could be given a shot (again not a fan of this concept) We may as well not have anyone compete in the ruck contest and go for a man on man approach and have a loose man in the centre who can tackle the ruckman if he tries to grab the ball.

The ruck contests around the ground are different as it is more congested and we often have another player come in over the top of the ruck contest.

In regards to the centre clearances -at least with Cordy he tries to compete in the ruck contests. This may nullify some of the direct clearances that the opposition receives. Against Sandilands this approach may not have worked as there were a number of instances where Freo won the centre clearance.

What I do like is that Bevo is open to experimentation. Whilst the set up on the weekend may not have been perfect we were in a position to win the game. That in itself is a commendable performance against the current flag favourites. Maybe as others have suggested we try Hamling.

Personally I would like to see Roughead as our ruck. Think he contests well and is good around the ground. He can go forward as well as dropping back. However this does weaken our defence and until we are satisfied that Roberts; Talia and Hamling (or we recruit another key defender) can cover the opposition forwards then Roughie will continue to play in a defensive role

Hard to say, but logic says it would be a quite bit you'd think. We would probably have to rotate the role pretty fequently. Being such a young team we lack a range of big bodies, but Stevens, Goodes, Kelly, Crameri, and Jong could all be candidates. Crameri could be an excellent candidate, but it might be too much to sacrifice from the forward line.

The problem with not having a ruckman compete at all is the opposition ruckman can punch the ball clear of the immediate group of players to a predetermined place which would negate the extra midfielder in the centre and put us at a disadvantage.

[Raw Toast]

Good thread and interesting discussion. A few things worth adding to it I think:

* Not sure how pre-planned the ruckless move was. Didn't seem like they'd been preparing for it much, or if they had, only very recently. Pretty sure the Bontempelli one was a mistake, didn't happen again - I like it when he goes 3rd man up at times, but don't want him risked in the ruck (and clearly of more advantage roving the ball).

* If it wasn't a deeply planned move, that's a pretty significant indication of how tactically innovative Beveridge (and his coaching team) are prepared to be during games. I like it - happy to experiment when losing, if it makes things worse, well the situation was dire anyway, and if it helps swing things our way, that's great. This interesting piece (http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/recovery-session-new-dog-teaches-little-dogs-big-trick-20150518-gh4fqv.html) indicates that some outside the club were impressed that a new coach would have the courage to do something like that in his 7th game.

* That piece also mentions a structural win for us that hasn't been discussed (as far as I've seen) by posters on this board. Namely, throwing Cordy up forward helped free up Dickson. Cordy required a tall, and also ran hard both ways (as some others have noted), creating space in the forward fifty which Dickson took full advantage of.

* I think the move was more a response to Sandilands than an indication that we are going to continue using players like Goodes, Crameri and Stevens in the ruck. Beveridge likes flexibility, and has used Boyd and Roughead a bit, but as others have noted, other teams can likely expose further weaknesses by preparing for it. The fact, however, that they'll have to prepare for it, could also be considered a win of sorts.

* Finally on Cordy. I like a lot of the signs he's showing. Not sure he's going to win hit-outs to advantage, but once the ball has hit the ground, he's showing that he can be an asset with his clean hands below his knees, and somewhat surprising ability to spin out of packs. He's also started clunking some nice marks (he and Wood almost saved the game against the Saints), and is attacking contests nicely. Still a work in progress, but one I'm happy to see the club investing in at the moment.

[GVGjr]

Great post RT. Many thanks.

[bornadog]

* I think the move was more a response to Sandilands than an indication that we are going to continue using players like Goodes, Crameri and Stevens in the ruck. Beveridge likes flexibility, and has used Boyd and Roughead a bit, but as others have noted, other teams can likely expose further weaknesses by preparing for it. The fact, however, that they'll have to prepare for it, could also be considered a win of sorts.

Listening to Mooney on SEN yesterday, he said it was crazy that Lyon didn't instruct Sandilands to thump the ball 20 to 30 metres away from the contest. He said, clearly our tactic was working as the clearance differential was only 5, so why didn't Sandilands use his height and whack the ball clear of the pack and then instruct Freo mids to chase the ball from there.

Whether Bevo uses this tactic again, will be interesting to see.

[Mofra]

Why cant Cordy get a hand to the ball? hes 204cm!!? OK, Sandilands is one thing, but Surely Cordy is in the top 5 tallest players in the comp?
I actually don't think he has much of a leap.
Roughy would get his hand up noticeably higher in ruck contests in the centre this year.

[Mantis]

I actually don't think he has much of a leap.
Roughy would get his hand up noticeably higher in ruck contests in the centre this year.

His leap is adequate, it's just that as soon as the ruck man make contact his lack of body strength means he is too easily pushed aside.

I think if we had a basketball style toss up Ayce would win his fair share of contests.

[Axe Man]

His leap is adequate, it's just that as soon as the ruck man make contact his lack of body strength means he is too easily pushed aside.

I think if we had a basketball style toss up Ayce would win his fair share of contests.

His lack of strength clearly costs him at ball ups and throw-ins around the ground but there is usually little body contact in centre bounces and he still rarely gets a hand on the ball. I think Jong would just about beat him in a basketball tip off.

[Sedat]

His lack of strength clearly costs him at ball ups and throw-ins around the ground but there is usually little body contact in centre bounces and he still rarely gets a hand on the ball. I think Jong would just about beat him in a basketball tip off.
He actually got more ruck taps than Cordy in the Sydney game 2 weeks ago.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Interesting idea and certainly has merit. The issue I see would be how much of a toll would playing a bigger bodied mid against a ruckman take on the mid's body? Do we have any players that can undertake this role? I notice that we had Bonts in taking a centre bounce the other day - can't say I am huge fan of this as I am not sure what value this brings. Maybe Crameri could be given a shot (again not a fan of this concept) We may as well not have anyone compete in the ruck contest and go for a man on man approach and have a loose man in the centre who can tackle the ruckman if he tries to grab the ball.

The ruck contests around the ground are different as it is more congested and we often have another player come in over the top of the ruck contest.

In regards to the centre clearances -at least with Cordy he tries to compete in the ruck contests. This may nullify some of the direct clearances that the opposition receives. Against Sandilands this approach may not have worked as there were a number of instances where Freo won the centre clearance.

What I do like is that Bevo is open to experimentation. Whilst the set up on the weekend may not have been perfect we were in a position to win the game. That in itself is a commendable performance against the current flag favourites. Maybe as others have suggested we try Hamling.

Personally I would like to see Roughead as our ruck. Think he contests well and is good around the ground. He can go forward as well as dropping back. However this does weaken our defence and until we are satisfied that Roberts; Talia and Hamling (or we recruit another key defender) can cover the opposition forwards then Roughie will continue to play in a defensive role
I also would like to see Roughead move into the ruck, which would give us greater marking power around the ground and up forward. This week would be the ideal match to bring Hamling in to add support to both Talia and Roberts down back. Roughead is capable of being a better ruckman than Cordy and using Roughy would mean that Tom Boyd could remain in attack where he is best suited. You have to admire Bevo for ignoring the calls for Minson or Tom Campbell to be recalled. Cordy, Minson and Campbell are all lumbering ruck men and you really can only afford to go with one of the three.

[Twodogs]

I also would like to see Roughead move into the ruck, which would give us greater marking power around the ground and up forward. This week would be the ideal match to bring Hamling in to add support to both Talia and Roberts down back. Roughead is capable of being a better ruckman than Cordy and using Roughy would mean that Tom Boyd could remain in attack where he is best suited. You have to admire Bevo for ignoring the calls for Minson or Tom Campbell to be recalled. Cordy, Minson and Campbell are all lumbering ruck men and you really can only afford to go with one of the three.

Yep. I admire his chops and I wonder if he's having a good look at the players he has in senior footy or he is working toward a long term strategic advantage?

[Mantis]

His lack of strength clearly costs him at ball ups and throw-ins around the ground but there is usually little body contact in centre bounces and he still rarely gets a hand on the ball. I think Jong would just about beat him in a basketball tip off.

There is until legs & bodies come together.. At this point Cordy's lack of strength means he is too easily pushed aside by the opposing ruckman.

[stefoid]

Im not really buying the lack of strength thing. Hes 204cm and 99 kegs which is 2 kilos lighter than Roughead and 7 kilos lighter than Minson and Campbell both. The difference in bulk/strength is certainly there, but it doesnt count for the total ineptness of his ruckwork.

Its got to be mostly skill and/or application. Hes just not good at ruckwork.

[hujsh]

Im not really buying the lack of strength thing. Hes 204cm and 99 kegs which is 2 kilos lighter than Roughead and 7 kilos lighter than Minson and Campbell both. The difference in bulk/strength is certainly there, but it doesnt count for the total ineptness of his ruckwork.

Its got to be mostly skill and/or application. Hes just not good at ruckwork.

What he weighs is irrelevant. Watch the contests against guys like Mike Pike and you see him get pushed out of the contests with one hand. He doesn't have the strength in his legs to hold his position. We don't even really get a chance to see if he has any skill in the ruck

[stefoid]

What he weighs is irrelevant. Watch the contests against guys like Mike Pike and you see him get pushed out of the contests with one hand. He doesn't have the strength in his legs to hold his position. We don't even really get a chance to see if he has any skill in the ruck

Surely not getting pushed out of the way is part of the skill of ruckwork? Skilled little guys find ways to counter their size disadvantage even in areas where its a big disadvantage. Honeychurch and Dalhaus win way more contested ball than you would think they had a right to. Its not as though being smaller than most opponents comes as a shock to those guys, and they have developed ways to compensate. Is Cordy out there thinking - whoah, he pushed me - didnt see that coming! Whoah, he did it again! (repeat 40 times times a game)

[hujsh]

Surely not getting pushed out of the way is part of the skill of ruckwork? Skilled little guys find ways to counter their size disadvantage even in areas where its a big disadvantage. Honeychurch and Dalhaus win way more contested ball than you would think they had a right to. Its not as though being smaller than most opponents comes as a shock to those guys, and they have developed ways to compensate. Is Cordy out there thinking - whoah, he pushed me - didnt see that coming! Whoah, he did it again! (repeat 40 times times a game)

I see ruck skill being more the tapwork, maneuvering and such. Without the strength to compete we don't really see that. The lack of strength makes Cordy an ineffective ruck but for all we know he might have some skill in the ruck (there's just evidently no opponent he can demonstrate this against).

I think no amount of application or skill will help Cordy if all it takes to remove him from the contest is one outstretched arm. Unless he develops a Nic-Nat like leap overnight or something similar he'll continue to lose the vast majority of ruck contests.

[stefoid]

Im harping on now, I know, but there are shorter and lighter rucks than Ayce who havent been as terrible as he is at tapouts. Ryder is 196/92 for instance. He has a big leap and his ruck style does not favour push and shove for obvious reasons. He finds a way to be competitive at the stoppages.

[jeemak]

Im harping on now, I know, but there are shorter and lighter rucks than Ayce who havent been as terrible as he is at tapouts. Ryder is 196/92 for instance. He has a big leap and his ruck style does not favour push and shove for obvious reasons. He finds a way to be competitive at the stoppages.

Ryder is a bit of a freak, and has different athletic attributes than most.

Hujsh is right in my view. Through the legs and core Ayce doesn't have the strength required, and this is his major failing. Check out the size and build of this area of his physique and its proportions compared to those of other players next time you see him up close. It's clearly where the issue is, and he's still got 2-3 more years before he gets to where he needs to be.

[Twodogs]

What he weighs is irrelevant. Watch the contests against guys like Mike Pike and you see him get pushed out of the contests with one hand. He doesn't have the strength in his legs to hold his position. We don't even really get a chance to see if he has any skill in the ruck


Ryder is a bit of a freak, and has different athletic attributes than most.

Hujsh is right in my view. Through the legs and core Ayce doesn't have the strength required, and this is his major failing. Check out the size and build of this area of his physique and its proportions compared to those of other players next time you see him up close. It's clearly where the issue is, and he's still got 2-3 more years before he gets to where he needs to be.

Yep. The 2-3 years sounds about right to me. His legs and bum have to fill out.

[ReLoad]

Last week we were paid at least 4 free kicks for ruck infringements, whereby one of our "3rd men up" were shepherded out or had their leap taken away from them. thats obviously part of the plan too, and whilst it doesn't show up as a tap to Ayce, its certainly part of the scales which need to balance out.

I like the 3rd man up stuff, the Hawks do it well with Jordan Lewis and we did it super well in 08/09.

i think that suits spindleshanks and would like to see him and Jong tag team it to keep the opposition guessing.

yes that doesnt solve the centre bounces, but around the ground it certainly nullifies things.

[stefoid]

I dont like 3rd man up because we now have two guys competing in the ruck and therefore one less ground level player available to win the ball.

[Mantis]

I dont like 3rd man up because we now have two guys competing in the ruck and therefore one less ground level player available to win the ball.

Agree with this, but it is effective if you can clear the ball from the contest and especially if you have a free player running onto the ball.

It becomes an issue if the ball isn't cleared as you stated.

[jeemak]

Third man up would be an issue if our stoppage game was based around matching numbers, as it was these past three seasons. We're setting up a bit better now and not relying on ball crowding to win it as much, and this kind of makes it less of an issue.

I'd prefer we didn't do it as much as we did, but for well documented reasons we have to for now.