All Dogs have fleas

[mjp]

When we recruited Joel 'The Hammer' Hamling from Geelong there was a lot of negativity about the fact that he had been at the Cats for 3-years but never played a game.

I know that one semi-OK game doesn't make a summer, but stay with me here.

The longer a player is at a club without actually getting a game, the LESS chance there is that he WILL get a game. And a lot of time all they really need is a genuine chance. The reasons for this are simple yet complicated.

When coaches spend all day, every day with a player they really do forget all of the reasons that the player was recruited in the first place. All they see (and all they can see) is all the stuff that person just can't do. The new crop of recruits come in and everything they do is new and exciting and as such they quickly pass the 'other bloke' in the pecking order...and eventually they find their way off the list and back to state league/local league footy, disillusioned with their time in the 'system'.

There are two parts of this for me. First off, we MUST play our draftees and recruits to find out what we have got. Yep - i am looking directly at Prudden and Fuller as I type this - because otherwise 2-3 years of development will go straight down the tube without us ever finding out what we might have.

Second, we MUST take advantage of the big whole in recruiting at the moment and really (really) get on top of grabbing other clubs cast offs. Not saying that we don't (Hamling is some proof that we do) but keep in mind that lack of 'on field' progress doesn't necessarily reflect a lack of progress. Just because a player isn't playing great state league footy doesn't mean they aren't worth a look - it might mean they are disillusioned with the AFL and just waiting to be delisted.

[comrade]

Kelly is another one that has had limited opportunities at AFL level.

Anyone willing to suggest who we should be targeting?

[Bulldog Joe]

Thanks MJP

If I read correctly what you are saying, footy clubs are neglecting what they have untested on their list.

Is that the hole you mean ?

Do clubs in general neglect players on other club lists, simply assuming that the existing club would be playing them if there was anything to offer.

[Twodogs]

Kelly is another one that has had limited opportunities at AFL level.

Anyone willing to suggest who we should be targeting?

Until recently Fitzpatrick from Melbourne would have been ideal for us but he's run into some good form and a long stretch of selection in the seniors. Dammit!

[boydogs]

Kelly is another one that has had limited opportunities at AFL level.

And Biggs

[comrade]

There is a very fine line in picking up fringe players from good clubs who have what it takes but have been deprived opportunity (Kennedy from the Swans being the poster child) and simply picking up duds (Djerkurra, Callan, Street, McDougall, Veszpremi).

Certainly not easy separating the wheat from the chaff.

[GVGjr]

I think the new coach aspect sort of cancels out the theory that the longer untested players are a club the more likely they are to get lost within the list. We also tend to overlook form at Footscray if the player is producing on the training track.

Lets have a look at the rookies and untested players on the senior list.

Rookies
- Smith, coming from a way back in development terms but will be vastly better for the experience of playing at Footscray
- Goodes, has been played. A known but somewhat limited commodity.
- Kelly, might have be close to getting a promotion but for his injury.
- Pearce, showed some positives early in his career but after an injury interrupted season last year is slowly getting back into the swing of things. Needs more time.

That covers the rookies.

Draftees
- McLean, just getting better and better. I suspect it won't be long before he gets a call up.
- Webb, has shown some good signs and will be in and out of the senior side for the balance of the season.
- Hamilton, classy and a good goal kicker. I suspect he will play some games late in the year.
- Dale, jumped ahead of McLean and Hamilton but would probably be the player to make room for them.
- Daniel, Injury curtailed his start but bound to get a game soon.
- Cordy, late start to the season and has picked up another injury. Might get a game or two late in the year.

Draftees - They need some time to develop but there certainly appears to be a plan to introduce them gradually during the season.
I'm more than comfortable that we have the right formula here.

Largely untested
- Prudden, I've been impressed with what I've seen so far this year and it would not surprise to see him play some games. As MJP says, we need to role the dice with him.
- Biggs, Just 3 games in 3 seasons at the Swans as a rookie and another that had his preseason curtailed. We need to give him at least 6 senior games this year.
- Redpath, Up and down season so far and will find it hard to get a spot in our forward line. I'm not sure how we develop him further this year.
- Fuller, Wretched luck with injuries and hard to assess his future. I can't see him being picked unless he can string 6 games together for Footscray. At the moment I would class him as unlikely.
- Honeychurch, 3 games last year but in the frame for senior selection. If he can add 12 senior games this year then I think that is a huge positive.
- Hamling, has been impressive for Footscray and earned his promotion. I'd say he will have made great progress if he can play 6 senior games this year. His height and athleticism is what we need.


Overall, I can't see how we can balance things for all players but as long as we give the deserving ones the best chances I think we will uncover the right players for us long term. Come round 18 or so and if we aren't playing good football I can see some players being called up for the last 4 or 5 games of the season to see how and if they will fit into the list for the next year.

[LostDoggy]

When we recruited Joel 'The Hammer' Hamling from Geelong there was a lot of negativity about the fact that he had been at the Cats for 3-years but never played a game.

I know that one semi-OK game doesn't make a summer, but stay with me here.

The longer a player is at a club without actually getting a game, the LESS chance there is that he WILL get a game. And a lot of time all they really need is a genuine chance. The reasons for this are simple yet complicated.

When coaches spend all day, every day with a player they really do forget all of the reasons that the player was recruited in the first place. All they see (and all they can see) is all the stuff that person just can't do. The new crop of recruits come in and everything they do is new and exciting and as such they quickly pass the 'other bloke' in the pecking order...and eventually they find their way off the list and back to state league/local league footy, disillusioned with their time in the 'system'.

There are two parts of this for me. First off, we MUST play our draftees and recruits to find out what we have got. Yep - i am looking directly at Prudden and Fuller as I type this - because otherwise 2-3 years of development will go straight down the tube without us ever finding out what we might have.

Second, we MUST take advantage of the big whole in recruiting at the moment and really (really) get on top of grabbing other clubs cast offs. Not saying that we don't (Hamling is some proof that we do) but keep in mind that lack of 'on field' progress doesn't necessarily reflect a lack of progress. Just because a player isn't playing great state league footy doesn't mean they aren't worth a look - it might mean they are disillusioned with the AFL and just waiting to be delisted.

Great post and insights, thanks. Do you have anybody in mind that we should be going after? A player on a list somewhere who's not getting his fair chance at showing talents you've seen in him?

It's an interesting thought when you consider draft day and the various assumptions made when a kid is drafted to a big club or not. For example, Recruit A, let's call him Billy, gets drafted to Hawthorn. His family and friends are rapt, he's going to a big powerful club where he'll supposedly win lots of flags. Recruit B, let's call him Johnny, gets drafted to Brisbane and his family are devastated because they think he's going to struggle on the bottom of the ladder, etc. But like you say, Johnny probably has a far greater chance of succeeding if he's at a club on the bottom half of the "rebuild/flag tilt" sine curve, as he's more likely to get a game straight away. Billy may be forced to wait quite a number of years before the Hawks finally slip, and by the time they play the kids there are newer and fresher ones.

Is this what you're talking about? Do you think young players should be eligible for a form of free agency in their early years if they're fit but not getting games?

[LostDoggy]

Keep in mind that Porkfish was recruited to Geelong as a forward who could also ruck , strange thing was he didn't really grow much taller just 1cm so the ruck was out of the question , at VFL level he started forward and was then moved back and was only moved forward as required for match ups , his best haul was a bag of five . More than a few players are recruited as a specific position player and then their body shape changes and they become more suited to another position , they might be at a Club for 2 years get delisted and then picked up again and now as a more mature player in mind and body flourish under a new Coaching system and play at senior level in the best position for them

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Good post. Port Adelaide snagging Hombsch is a great example of this.

He'll get a few games now due to other injuries, but Clurey from Port Adelaide is one I'd keep an eye on (Melbourne boy, too). He's not going to get games ahead of Carlisle and Trengove when fit.

[Ozza]

Prudden is one that I am sticking to my guns that he will be an AFL player.

To me he seems the type that can transition his game to the AFL and play at the same level there as he does in the VFL. He is very clean and composed below his knees and uses the ball well.

[G-Mo77]

When we recruited Joel 'The Hammer' Hamling from Geelong there was a lot of negativity about the fact that he had been at the Cats for 3-years but never played a game.


I think I said that word for word. :D

So far so good with Hamling.

[Ghost Dog]

It's also possible that coaches can take a disliking to a player, personality clash, which can see them on the outer. Watching Houli run around at Richmond is an example. He most definitely would be getting a game under Hird.

[stefoid]

Sedat will choke on his wheaties at your post MJP!!

But really it comes down to just selecting decent players via whatever means - there is no magic bullet - trade or draft - you just have to be able to pick em.

Trading is opportunistic. If a good player (In your opinion) becomes available for whatever reason, you have a crack. But you dont go out there looking for players to trade in - thats like going to the supermarket when your hungry - youll come back with a trolley full of crap.

A holistic approach to list management may see us recognising that a particular draft runs deep or shallow, and therefore spending more or less time combing over other teams lists. We actually have a list manager now who can sit down with Dalrymple and discuss the merits of coughing up a pick for a certain 2nd hand player.

[Sedat]

Sedat will choke on his wheaties at your post MJP!!
Why is that Stef? Reckon it is a terrific thread - would love to see Prudden get some games later this year, and if Fuller gets a good run and shows that supposedly elite disposal by foot that he showed in Adelaide, I'd be happy to see him get a run as well.

Sam Darley is another one who was probably misused at GWS and has been given another chance at another club in a role more suited to his skill set. He needs to continue to improve his one-on-one defending in order to cement his AFL career though.

[stefoid]

Why is that Stef? Reckon it is a terrific thread - would love to see Prudden get some games later this year, and if Fuller gets a good run and shows that supposedly elite disposal by foot that he showed in Adelaide, I'd be happy to see him get a run as well.

Sam Darley is another one who was probably misused at GWS and has been given another chance at another club in a role more suited to his skill set. He needs to continue to improve his one-on-one defending in order to cement his AFL career though.

I thought you were the 'never throw away draft picks on castoffs' bloke?

[Sedat]

I thought you were the 'never throw away draft picks on castoffs' bloke?
Nah, I'm of the school of thought that good drafting needs sensible trading and visa versa. I hate the trading for duds as much as anyone, but I think we've approached the trading for other team's players in a far more measured and sensible fashion since we got a list manager.

You might be thinking of Guido, who is vehemently opposed to trading of draft picks for speculative cast-offs, and has previously cited numerous examples on here to state his case.

[Twodogs]

Yep, Guido is the don't piss draft picks away fanatic.

[Greystache]

Yep, Guido is the don't piss draft picks away fanatic.

Don't piss draft picks away on recycled players... Pissing them away on drafted hacks is part of doing business. Difficult to understand the concept.

[Cyberdoggie]

There is a very fine line in picking up fringe players from good clubs who have what it takes but have been deprived opportunity (Kennedy from the Swans being the poster child) and simply picking up duds (Djerkurra, Callan, Street, McDougall, Veszpremi).

Certainly not easy separating the wheat from the chaff.


Some good examples but I like to put them in two different categories.

Here's my analogy:

1. you pay top dollar for a thingamajig, you can't wait to try it out, it works once or twice and then just doesn't do what you want it to do or it is constantly broken, so you throw it on the scrap heap or if your lucky some schmo will offer you something for it and you sell it in a heartbeat. That person thinks wow this thingamajig was top of the range when it came out and I bought it for hardly anything, he was practically throwing it out. I bet he just didn't know how to use it properly.
The lure of a too good to be true offer.

2. A thingamajig was sitting on the nature strip, someone threw it out, labelled "for a good home, never been used, wife bought the wrong model or was a gift but didn't find a use for it". Knowing a few things about thingymajigs you know the history and think this thingy could do the job nicely, hasn't been used before so let's take it home and give it a try.
Works pretty well, hasn't got all the features but what a bargain.

Veszpremi was a prime example of version 1. High draft pick, perhaps where Sydney failed we can succeed. Same with Djekurra, McDougall etc. Tried and tested and failed. I'd like to know the actual percentage odds of a club turning around a high pick that just didn't cut it at one club. We have had a history of falling for this time and time again. Picking up the scraps from the big boys and hoping they just made a mistake. Finally we are trading and recruiting smartly. Sure you can't win every time and Fuller may not work out but where he failed Tory Dickson has been a success from a similar background.

The other big positive is that we are giving our players a good run when they get their chance. Cordy, Dale, Roberts, Jong, Goodes,
etc have all had a few games to adapt, there's no revolving door mentality of the past, or play as the sub and don't do much so get dropped, which achieves nothing.

[stefoid]

Nah, I'm of the school of thought that good drafting needs sensible trading and visa versa. I hate the trading for duds as much as anyone, but I think we've approached the trading for other team's players in a far more measured and sensible fashion since we got a list manager.

You might be thinking of Guido, who is vehemently opposed to trading of draft picks for speculative cast-offs, and has previously cited numerous examples on here to state his case.

yep, right.

[stefoid]

Some good examples but I like to put them in two different categories.

Here's my analogy:

1. you pay top dollar for a thingamajig, you can't wait to try it out, it works once or twice and then just doesn't do what you want it to do or it is constantly broken, so you throw it on the scrap heap or if your lucky some schmo will offer you something for it and you sell it in a heartbeat. That person thinks wow this thingamajig was top of the range when it came out and I bought it for hardly anything, he was practically throwing it out. I bet he just didn't know how to use it properly.
The lure of a too good to be true offer.

2. A thingamajig was sitting on the nature strip, someone threw it out, labelled "for a good home, never been used, wife bought the wrong model or was a gift but didn't find a use for it". Knowing a few things about thingymajigs you know the history and think this thingy could do the job nicely, hasn't been used before so let's take it home and give it a try.
Works pretty well, hasn't got all the features but what a bargain.

Veszpremi was a prime example of version 1. High draft pick, perhaps where Sydney failed we can succeed. Same with Djekurra, McDougall etc. Tried and tested and failed. I'd like to know the actual percentage odds of a club turning around a high pick that just didn't cut it at one club. We have had a history of falling for this time and time again. Picking up the scraps from the big boys and hoping they just made a mistake. Finally we are trading and recruiting smartly. Sure you can't win every time and Fuller may not work out but where he failed Tory Dickson has been a success from a similar background.

The other big positive is that we are giving our players a good run when they get their chance. Cordy, Dale, Roberts, Jong, Goodes,
etc have all had a few games to adapt, there's no revolving door mentality of the past, or play as the sub and don't do much so get dropped, which achieves nothing.

This is just a casual observation on my part, cant back it up, but I havent see too many cases where players were thrown out or traded away coming good at their next club if they were thrown out because they lacked effort and/or intensity.

[Mofra]

This is just a casual observation on my part, cant back it up, but I havent see too many cases where players were thrown out or traded away coming good at their next club if they were thrown out because they lacked effort and/or intensity.
Tom Harley couldn't get a look in at Port before becoming a multiple premiership captain.
Jay Schultz by his own admission didn't work hard enough at Richmond
Josh Kennedy at the Swans was inspired, Ditto McGlynn
Peter Foster was a late bloomer for us
Slightly different cases, but both James Podsiadly and Ben Hudson were under our noses for long enough.

These guys fit MJPs profile - they weren't list cloggers, just behind in the pecking order at their (potential for the VFL guys) clubs.

Not saying it always works, but it can happen. Libba wasn't wanted at North Melbourne, we got a champion and his son out of it.

[Twodogs]

Tom Harley couldn't get a look in at Port before becoming a multiple premiership captain.
Jay Schultz by his own admission didn't work hard enough at Richmond
Josh Kennedy at the Swans was inspired, Ditto McGlynn
Peter Foster was a late bloomer for us
Slightly different cases, but both James Podsiadly and Ben Hudson were under our noses for long enough.

These guys fit MJPs profile - they weren't list cloggers, just behind in the pecking order at their (potential for the VFL guys) clubs.

Not saying it always works, but it can happen. Libba wasn't wanted at North Melbourne, we got a champion and his son out of it.

Good point and as an aside North very nicely provided us with the Wynd Romero Liberatore first ruck combination that served us so well in the mid to late '90s. They just had had to fill out a form before his 16th birthday and he was there's. But they didn't and he signed with us instead.

[Mofra]

Good point and as an aside North very nicely provided us with the Wynd Romero Liberatore first ruck combination that served us so well in the mid to late '90s. They just had had to fill out a form before his 16th birthday and he was there's. But they didn't and he signed with us instead.
Yep - got the year wrong on Scotty Wynd's birthday and we swooped on the first day we could sign him!

We did give them Keenan Reynolds and Sam Power as well as Jade Rawlings for a year

[Twodogs]

Did Nick Maxwell start at another club than Collingwood?

[bornadog]

Did Nick Maxwell start at another club than Collingwood?

He came through the VFL - North Ballarat, but only played for Collingwood in AFL

[Twodogs]

He came through the VFL - North Ballarat, but only played for Collingwood in AFL

Cheers BAD. I thought he had played at Geelong at some stage.

[Mofra]

Cheers BAD. I thought he had played at Geelong at some stage.
Have Geelong ever let someone go that went on to play well? Aside from the great man Peter Street of course.


Should include Ted Richards in the Swans discussion. Fringe tall at Essendon, AA at Sydney

[Ozza]

Have Geelong ever let someone go that went on to play well? Aside from the great man Peter Street of course.


Should include Ted Richards in the Swans discussion. Fringe tall at Essendon, AA at Sydney

Gary Ablett!! :D

[Rocket Science]

Have Geelong ever let someone go that went on to play well? Aside from the great man Peter Street of course.


Should include Ted Richards in the Swans discussion. Fringe tall at Essendon, AA at Sydney

May need a clarification on "well' but one Bluey Hampshire?

Mildly bullish about Joel Hamling extending the list.

[SlimPickens]

The most drastic example I can think of is The aints using pick 12 to secure a previously delisted Tom Lee. A real head scratcher at the time and proven to be shocking decision ever since.

[bornadog]

May need a clarification on "well' but one Bluey Hampshire?

Mildly bullish about Joel Hamling extending the list.

Talking about Bluey, he is quiet ill at the moment.

see story here (http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/news/geelong/ian-bluey-hampshire-tackles-life-after-a-severe-stroke/story-fnjuhovy-1227306577682)

[Ozza]

The most drastic example I can think of is The aints using pick 12 to secure a previously delisted Tom Lee. A real head scratcher at the time and proven to be shocking decision ever since.

...while in the same 12 months they got rid of Tom Lynch (now at Adelaide), who would be perfect in their forward line about now.

[jeemak]

The most drastic example I can think of is The aints using pick 12 to secure a previously delisted Tom Lee. A real head scratcher at the time and proven to be shocking decision ever since.

From Tom Lee's Wiki page:

Tom adopted an Australian Shepherd named "Higgins" during the 2014 AFL Silly Season, however Tom is yet to comment on the sound judgement of this decision. Higgins could not be reached for comment and his state of health since the adoption is unknown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Lee_%28footballer,_born_1991%29

[Twodogs]

Have Geelong ever let someone go that went on to play well? Aside from the great man Peter Street of course.


Should include Ted Richards in the Swans discussion. Fringe tall at Essendon, AA at Sydney


Diesel Williams is the only one that springs to mind. He was a fair player with them but he won two Brownlow medals after he left.

[bornadog]

Diesel Williams is the only one that springe to mind.

We let Brian Wilson go because he was too fat after coming back from pre-season. He left and won a Brownlow.

[Greystache]

Diesel Williams is the only one that springs to mind. He was a fair player with them but he won two Brownlow medals after he left.

Gary Ablett after he left Hawthorn went ok.

[Twodogs]

We let Brian Wilson go because he was too fat after coming back from pre-season. He left and won a Brownlow.

Did he win the year before or after the two ex Footscray players tied for it?

[bornadog]

Did he win the year before or after the two ex Footscray players tied for it?

Here is a nice list for you



1980 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_VFL_season)
Kelvin Templeton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_Templeton)
Footscray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Bulldogs)
23


1981 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_VFL_season)
Bernie Quinlan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Quinlan)
Fitzroy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitzroy_Football_Club)
22


1981 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_VFL_season)
Barry Round (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Round)
South Melbourne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Swans)
22


1982 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_VFL_season)
Brian Wilson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Wilson_(Australian_rules_footballer))
Melbourne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne_Football_Club)
23



Dempsey 1975 and Hardie 1985 so in 11 years we had 6 players or ex players over 5 of the years.

[Twodogs]

That's cheered me up no end.

[1eyedog]

Tom Harley couldn't get a look in at Port before becoming a multiple premiership captain.
Jay Schultz by his own admission didn't work hard enough at Richmond
Josh Kennedy at the Swans was inspired, Ditto McGlynn
Peter Foster was a late bloomer for us
Slightly different cases, but both James Podsiadly and Ben Hudson were under our noses for long enough.

These guys fit MJPs profile - they weren't list cloggers, just behind in the pecking order at their (potential for the VFL guys) clubs.

Not saying it always works, but it can happen. Libba wasn't wanted at North Melbourne, we got a champion and his son out of it.

Ottens was a late bloomer also, inconsistent at Richmond he was let go when they got Troy Simmonds and he went on to be Geelong's best performed and most important player in their 2007 finals campaign.

[Bulldog Joe]

Ottens was a late bloomer also, inconsistent at Richmond he was let go when they got Troy Simmonds and he went on to be Geelong's best performed and most important player in their 2007 finals campaign.

Not sure that is correct. Ottens was hardly let go and didn't Geelong trade out Maloney to accommodate the trade. It was certainly seen as a big deal at the time.
A

[Twodogs]

Not sure that is correct. Ottens was hardly let go and didn't Geelong trade out Maloney to accommodate the trade. It was certainly seen as a big deal at the time.
A

I recall a lot of Geelong supporters upset they had traded out a hard as nails midfielder for a tall forward who could be a bit mercurial at best but flaky at worst. But Ottens turned to be a key component in two premiership sides and you could make the argument that they wouldn't have won those flags without him.

[Greystache]

Not sure that is correct. Ottens was hardly let go and didn't Geelong trade out Maloney to accommodate the trade. It was certainly seen as a big deal at the time.
A

He was traded for pick 12, 16, and Maloney from memory. Two first round picks and a highly promising midfielder, Geelong were accused at the time of mortgaging their future.

[jeemak]

He was traded for pick 12, 16, and Maloney from memory. Two first round picks and a highly promising midfielder, Geelong were accused at the time of mortgaging their future.

Important to note that while you're correct with the selections, the trade happened at the end of 2004.

Maloney ended up at Melbourne for pick 12, which was used to secure Ottens as you've suggested.

Ottens had two years of continuity at a club with a plan before he made an impact. If he was transferred to a shit club without a plan he'd be as irrelevant as any other talented person to be traded to the wrong spot.

[Twodogs]

Important to note that while you're correct with the selections, the trade happened at the end of 2004.

Maloney ended up at Melbourne for pick 12, which was used to secure Ottens as you've suggested.

Ottens had two years of continuity at a club with a plan before he made an impact. If he was transferred to a shit club without a plan he'd be as irrelevant as any other talented person to be traded to the wrong spot.


Was it just 12 or 12 and 14 Jeemak?

[hujsh]

Was it just 12 or 12 and 14 Jeemak?

12 and 14.

[1eyedog]

Not sure that is correct. Ottens was hardly let go and didn't Geelong trade out Maloney to accommodate the trade. It was certainly seen as a big deal at the time.
A

That's right I forgot they lost Maloney in that trade. Still, they had a glut of mids and something had to give, with only an underperforming Mooney and a second rate Playfair they needed a CHF and they don't come cheap. But yes, Richmond did not merely let him go.