Dear Mr Gordon...

[bulldogtragic]

Can you please go to court to have the WBFC identified as an 'expansion team' as we are in fact a football club/team expanding a territory for the AFL and its corporate partners. Once we can be deemed an 'expansion team' then we can receive a limitless credit card from the AFL to poach fitness staff, list managers and other club staff. We can also go and get gun players who would be captains of their clubs and then go and get their actual club captains.

I think the focus on equalisation is far too limited. We need to deemed to be an 'expansion team' just to have the unending cash and thus a shot at keeping many of the outstanding the staff and players we are developing. Call it making our club a bottom feeder, or forcing us to be AFL talent surrogates... It's time for a different argument maybe.

[Flamethrower]

Fair enough. Just heard that GWS are in the process of poaching Jason McCartney.

[Doc26]

McLachlan, Fitzpatrick, Evans and co. are all sleeping at the wheel.

This constant poaching of our key personnel by these artificial, soulless franchises from a seemingly bottomless pit of AFL funded dollars must be reined in, but the problem is by who ? If only some of the bigger clubs were being constantly hit like ours. Peter has such a tough task with this as he's become the only voice for the effected.

These AFL cronies are so blinded by big $$$ that they would not seem to care less how they aim to reach their narrow minded yet far fetched goal.

The sooner this GWS and GCS dodgy experiment fails the better for all of us.

[azabob]

Or Doc26, perhaps they are not asleep at the wheel and are perfectly comfortable with what is happening...

[Doc26]

Or Doc26, perhaps they are not asleep at the wheel and are perfectly comfortable with what is happening...

You might be right there Aza. It's a seriously dodgy GPS that their tracking their journey against.

[LostDoggy]

I'm sure this ain't gonna be popular but I'm not that fussed.

McCartney has obviously done a great job and I would like him to stay, but if he does move on I also think a little bit of fluidity in a department like List Management is probably healthy.

We got JM from the Freo footy department. He was never gonna be here forever, and would most likely move on to another club at some point.

He has given us 4 good years, in which time he must've shared all his ideas, theories and IP with Daly and others in the department.

So he has enriched us and probably done as much for us culturally as he can do. Now, if he moves on, somebody with fresh ideas and theories is added to the mix.

I have similar sentiments with Cordy. He has done a terrific job, passed on plenty to our conditioning group and moved on, hopefully freeing up the role for somebody else to develop further with fresh ideas and perspective.

Best of luck to the individuals involved and good luck to the clubs who win them over, just as we will attempt to win over the best people we can from other clubs.

All clubs lose personnel every year. Players, coaches and all manner of support and management staff. Individuals leave their mark but what really matters is the cumulative culture. Fresh people come in and add to this culture.

We are a strong club. We are not victims.

[Remi Moses]

Is this such a big deal?
I'm unsure why there is so much dislike for Pelchen.
Sure he is a prick to trade and deal with, but he's the type your glad is in your corner.

[Doc26]

I'm sure this ain't gonna be popular but I'm not that fussed.

McCartney has obviously done a great job and I would like him to stay, but if he does move on I also think a little bit of fluidity in a department like List Management is probably healthy.

We got JM from the Freo footy department. He was never gonna be here forever, and would most likely move on to another club at some point.

He has given us 4 good years, in which time he must've shared all his ideas, theories and IP with Daly and others in the department.

So he has enriched us and probably done as much for us culturally as he can do. Now, if he moves on, somebody with fresh ideas and theories is added to the mix.


You're right this view is not popular, well not with one Woofer anyway :)

As Stephen Wells moves into his 22nd National Draft at Geelong now as Recruiting and List Manager he hardly exhausted his offering with them after 4 years.

He is revered in the industry for what he has given to Geelong over such a long and very successful tenure to date.

[bornadog]

Is this such a big deal?
I'm unsure why there is so much dislike for Pelchen.
Sure he is a prick to trade and deal with, but he's the type your glad is in your corner.

Its about losing existing staff.:mad:

[bulldogtragic]

You're right this view is not popular, well not with one Woofer anyway.

As Stephen Wells moves into his 22nd National Draft at Geelong now as Recruiting and List Manager he hardly exhausted his offering with them after 4 years.

He is revered in the industry for what he has given to Geelong over such a long and very successful tenure.

Yep, the Balmes, Cooks, Walshs etc don't come to the dogs. Neither generally do other big fish off field pros. We have to pan for gold, find talent at the next rung down and develop them, and with them, and do all the hard work. When they flourish we can't afford them, they go to these plastic clubs on big money directly given to them by the AFL and then we have vacant positions.

Then we can't get the Balmes, Wells etc to come to the dogs. Then we have to pan for gold. And then sometimes it doesn't work. Brian Cook negotiated with major banks to write off $4,000,000 in debt. Our CEO who was vastly more inexperienced oversaw failures financially.

We are taking people from outside AFL at the moment because we can't get the big fish. And if that works then expect big clubs and expansion teams to get even more cash to bribe our people away. We are in a cycle of constantly developing great untapped talent and losing many of them (Clayton, Cordy, JM, Ward, Griphon, Hawbrow, Reid etc) to clubs whose funding is direct from the AFL. We seem mere surrogates until they fail and our club cops a hit, or until they succeed and we can't match the salaries. It's not about being a victim in the sense of playing the victim, but it's hard not to argue that the AFL are funding a program that has us being AFL talent surrogates.

[LostDoggy]

You're right this view is not popular, well not with one Woofer anyway :)

As Stephen Wells moves into his 22nd National Draft at Geelong now as Recruiting and List Manager he hardly exhausted his offering with them after 4 years.

He is revered in the industry for what he has given to Geelong over such a long and very successful tenure to date.

That's great for Stephen and Geelong, but I am sure he has worked with many people along the way who have moved on to other clubs and left Geelong strong and thriving. People like Malcolm Blight, Neil Balme and Bomber Thompson come to mind, although I am sure there are many others.

He is very much the exception, pretty much every premiership winning list manager has come from another club and then moved on to another.

A guy like Pelchen was part of the Hawthorn 80s-90s lists, then the Port 2000s list, then went back to Hawthorn and helped build the foundations of the current list in the early Clarkson years. In recent years he has also helped with the StKilda list that is starting to bear fruit.

This story is maybe less impressive than Wells' probably because it is more common.

As I say, I would prefer McCartney stay, but I am confident in the prevailing culture he has helped build. I also recognise that change can also be good.

[Doc26]

That's great for Stephen and Geelong, but I am sure he has worked with many people along the way who have moved on to other clubs and left Geelong strong and thriving. People like Malcolm Blight, Neil Balme and Bomber Thompson come to mind, although I am sure there are many others.

He is very much the exception, pretty much every premiership winning list manager has come from another club and then moved on to another.

A guy like Pelchen was part of the Hawthorn 80s-90s lists, then the Port 2000s list, then went back to Hawthorn and helped build the foundations of the current list in the early Clarkson years. In recent years he has also helped with the StKilda list that is starting to bear fruit.

This story is maybe less impressive than Wells' probably because it is more common.

As I say, I would prefer McCartney stay, but I am confident in the prevailing culture he has helped build. I also recognise that change can also be good.

I wouldn't say Wells is an exception to the rule in terms of longevity in the role. There's been a number of list managers in recent times or still current who have served ~10+ years at their respective Clubs e.g. Hine, Beatson, Dodoro, Clayton first at Brisbane then 10 years with us.

[Doc26]

I would argue that retaining a strong list manager and recruiting manger for the longer term is a critical ingredient to achieving sustained success.

[LostDoggy]

Yep, the Balmes, Cooks, Walshs etc don't come to the dogs. Neither generally do other big fish off field pros. We have to pan for gold, find talent at the next rung down and develop them, and with them, and do all the hard work. When they flourish we can't afford them, they go to these plastic clubs on big money directly given to them by the AFL and then we have vacant positions.

Then we can't get the Balmes, Wells etc to come to the dogs. Then we have to pan for gold. And then sometimes it doesn't work. Brian Cook negotiated with major banks to write off $4,000,000 in debt. Our CEO who was vastly more inexperienced oversaw failures financially.

We are taking people from outside AFL at the moment because we can't get the big fish. And if that works then expect big clubs and expansion teams to get even more cash to bribe our people away. We are in a cycle of constantly developing great untapped talent and losing many of them (Clayton, Cordy, JM, Ward, Griphon, Hawbrow, Reid etc) to clubs whose funding is direct from the AFL. We seem mere surrogates until they fail and our club cops a hit, or until they succeed and we can't match the salaries. It's not about being a victim in the sense of playing the victim, but it's hard not to argue that the AFL are funding a program that has us being AFL talent surrogates.

With respect, I don't think the facts support this:

Justin Cordy came to us from Carlton.
Luke Beveridge came to us from Hawthorn/StKilda
Jason McCartney came to us from Fremantle
Ben Graham came to us from Geelong/NY Jets
Chris Bell came to us from StKilda
Assistants Montgomery(Port/Carlton), King and Corey (Geelong),
David Stevenson came from Nike
Our boards credentials stack up with anyones as well as being quintessentially Bulldog

I am proud of where our club has come from, our struggle and what we stand for, but I don't think it's in our interests to see ourselves as victims.

Sure the start up clubs have been given a leg up, but it's hard to see how they could've got a foothold in the comp any other way.

I don't think we have been targeted by the AFL to provide the start-ups any more than any other club.

We did lose Clayton and Cordy (and maybe JM), but we got them all from other clubs anyway, so it would be a bit rich to claim them as our untouchable property.

Sure, we have lost some players to them, but we did get the Giants#1 prized Draft pick (amongst others with compensation picks). There is every chance we will look back and consider ourselves net beneficiaries of these trades. We got youth in a time of rebuilding.

Also, both teams are coached by an individual who we either sacked or knocked back.

[Remi Moses]

Its about losing existing staff.:mad:

It happens with every club though .
I'd be disappointed if Jason left, but Pelchen's a pretty capable replacement .

[Remi Moses]

With respect, I don't think the facts support this:

Justin Cordy came to us from Carlton.
Luke Beveridge came to us from Hawthorn/StKilda
Jason McCartney came to us from Fremantle
Ben Graham came to us from Geelong/NY Jets
Chris Bell came to us from StKilda
Assistants Montgomery(Port/Carlton), King and Corey (Geelong),
David Stevenson came from Nike
Our boards credentials stack up with anyones as well as being quintessentially Bulldog

I am proud of where our club has come from, our struggle and what we stand for, but I don't think it's in our interests to see ourselves as victims.

Sure the start up clubs have been given a leg up, but it's hard to see how they could've got a foothold in the comp any other way.

I don't think we have been targeted by the AFL to provide the start-ups any more than any other club.

We did lose Clayton and Cordy (and maybe JM), but we got them all from other clubs anyway, so it would be a bit rich to claim them as our untouchable property.

Sure, we have lost some players to them, but we did get the Giants#1 prized Draft pick (amongst others with compensation picks). There is every chance we will look back and consider ourselves net beneficiaries of these trades. We got youth in a time of rebuilding.

Also, both teams are coached by an individual who we either sacked or knocked back.

Great post, and a salient one.
We picked up the bombre forward analyst scout( can't recall his name)

[bulldogtragic]

I think you make my point:

Cordy was going to be sacked. He lasted 9 months with us before taking bigger cash.
Bevo wasn't a senior coach, we promoted him.
Macca was promoted.
Graham had no AFL experience at the level we hired him for.
Monty fell out with Carlton very badly.
King and Corey had no runs on the board.
Dave has no AFL experience as a CEO.

Great people and great skill sets. But my point was AFL industry leaders like Cook, Balme, Walsh, Schwabs, etc, etc, with runs on the board do not pick the Bulldogs. Because they don't we need to look to others at lower levels or look outside AFL. They either fail, or if they succeed we have seen our head recruiter, head fitness (mid season) and list manager (rumoured) all gone. That compounds guns in Harbrow, Gryphon, Ward and Reid (who was highly rated) all gone to the same clubs.

The AFL is bank rolling those clubs and cashing them up to the point where they are cherry picking our on field and off field talent. Call it whatever you like, I'm not sure how pointing it out creates a victim mentality, but these are facts.

[lemmon]

I'm not sure about the 'Bulldogs Online' Facebook page and they posted the story but followed it up with:

Bulldogs Online We did some research on this article,
Jason more than likely to stay
Like · Reply · 17 · 5 hrs

and

Bulldogs Online Nothing confirmed at this point in time, Pelchen may be brought on to work alongside Jason or Simon
Like · Reply · 6 hrs


Who knows how reliable a source this page is though?

[LostDoggy]

I think you make my point:

Cordy was going to be sacked. He lasted 9 months with us before taking bigger cash.
Bevo wasn't a senior coach, we promoted him.
Macca was promoted.
Graham had no AFL experience at the level we hired him for.
Monty fell out with Carlton very badly.
King and Corey had no runs on the board.
Dave has no AFL experience as a CEO.

Great people and great skill sets. But my point was AFL industry leaders like Cook, Balme, Walsh, Schwabs, etc, etc, with runs on the board do not pick the Bulldogs. Because they don't we need to look to others at lower levels or look outside AFL. They either fail, or if they succeed we have seen our head recruiter, head fitness (mid season) and list manager (rumoured) all gone. That compounds guns in Harbrow, Gryphon, Ward and Reid (who was highly rated) all gone to the same clubs.

The AFL is bank rolling those clubs and cashing them up to the point where they are cherry picking our on field and off field talent. Call it whatever you like, I'm not sure how pointing it out creates a victim mentality, but these are facts.

I understand your points, I just see it differently.

I think the quality of appointees we are attracting are as good as most.

Bevo was only an assistant, but so are most new coaches (Simpson, Scotts, Bolton, Clarkson, Leppa, Longmire, Cameron, Buckley). His credentials would've had him right in the mix with any power club
Assistant coaches were untried, but a lot of assistants are immediately retired players at all clubs. Guys like Graham, Corey and King would be a strong chance of getting gigs at any club with a vacancy.
Sure, Dave didn't have specific AFL experience, but his acquisition is seen as a coup.
JM was a promotion but he was highly regarded and in demand.

I am not listing these to nit pick. I am trying to say that we are not a club that only takes the scraps. We are legitimate competitors for quality staff and shouldn't view ourselves as paupers or victims. If a Richmond, Geelong or Hawthorn had've employed these candidates over the past few years it would not have looked inferior or odd.

I don't think it's in our best interests to see ourselves as chancers or bottom feeders. This is perception.

We should receive proper restitution for inequities like the Etihad deal, but otherwise we are not, in my opinion, a club requiring special treament or handouts.

I don't mean to be argumentative or pedantic (feel like I'm waffling), just trying to express my point clearly.

[Twodogs]

I hope we are jumping at shadows.

If it's money pay him what he wants.

[KT31]

I am proud of where our club has come from, our struggle and what we stand for, but I don't think it's in our interests to see ourselves as victims.


I don't and will never see as as, you describe victims, but as survivors.
The AFL have had a fair crack at wiping us out and we are still around, this is not to say I don't think they are well and truly still giving us the shaft as they still are.
You would be totally naive and have a total misunderstanding of the way the AFL runs things if you said we were all treated equally or fairly compered to the majority of teams.

[bulldogtragic]

I understand your points, I just see it differently.

I think the quality of appointees we are attracting are as good as most.

Bevo was only an assistant, but so are most new coaches (Simpson, Scotts, Bolton, Clarkson, Leppa, Longmire, Cameron, Buckley). His credentials would've had him right in the mix with any power club
Assistant coaches were untried, but a lot of assistants are immediately retired players at all clubs. Guys like Graham, Corey and King would be a strong chance of getting gigs at any club with a vacancy.
Sure, Dave didn't have specific AFL experience, but his acquisition is seen as a coup.
JM was a promotion but he was highly regarded and in demand.

I am not listing these to nit pick. I am trying to say that we are not a club that only takes the scraps. We are legitimate competitors for quality staff and shouldn't view ourselves as paupers or victims. If a Richmond, Geelong or Hawthorn had've employed these candidates over the past few years it would not have looked inferior or odd.

I don't think it's in our best interests to see ourselves as chancers or bottom feeders. This is perception.

We should receive proper restitution for inequities like the Etihad deal, but otherwise we are not, in my opinion, a club requiring special treament or handouts.

I don't mean to be argumentative or pedantic (feel like I'm waffling), just trying to express my point clearly.

My opening post had my tongue in my cheek, it's cool we see things differently. We are not victims and like KT says above, we are survivors and a proud honest club. But we are survivors despite the consistent BS the club has had to deal with from the beginning of entrance into the VFL, to Ross Oakley, Etihad deals and consistently losing players and staff and shocking schedule and TV exposure and lack of assistance with sponsorship. It's just the way it is, but that doesn't make us victims and highlighting it isn't a victims mentality. Understanding the myriad of problems and talking about them broadly is how we can start to try to level the playing field since equalisation is going nowhere - that's not my view of living in a victims mentality. There are plenty of journos that go through these boards, so grabbing their attention to an issue is good especially if they have nothing better to write about.

[LostDoggy]

Fair enough. I get where you are coming from.

Good discussion.

[bulldogtragic]

Fair enough. I get where you are coming from.

Good discussion.

Likewise Peanuts. I'm really liking your contributions and viewpoints in the short time you've been woofing with us.

[LostDoggy]

Likewise Peanuts. I'm really liking your contributions and viewpoints in the short time you've been woofing with us.

Thanks. I appreciate that.

I'm enjoying being here and reading your, and everyboy elses, thoughts.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Can you please go to court to have the WBFC identified as an 'expansion team' as we are in fact a football club/team expanding a territory for the AFL and its corporate partners. Once we can be deemed an 'expansion team' then we can receive a limitless credit card from the AFL to poach fitness staff, list managers and other club staff. We can also go and get gun players who would be captains of their clubs and then go and get their actual club captains.

I think the focus on equalisation is far too limited. We need to deemed to be an 'expansion team' just to have the unending cash and thus a shot at keeping many of the outstanding the staff and players we are developing. Call it making our club a bottom feeder, or forcing us to be AFL talent surrogates... It's time for a different argument maybe.

Bump. Back on thread, BT you have a serious point.
The western suburbs, including Ballarat, have been designated as our region. These western suburbs have a large migrant population and it is the league's responsibility to recruit this demographic to AFL allegiance and save them from soccer/basketball/NRL conversion, NO less than western Sydney or Queensland! The Western Bulldogs are the designated AFL team to accomplish this. We have sacrificed our title of Footscray Football Club to do this as well as devoted ourselves to the western community and the migrant demographic in our society.
The AFL spent a fortune the size of some countries' GNP to expand our code throughout NRL territory, throughout Australia and to NZ, England and Ireland. The best 'convert per dollar' ratio is clearly with the western suburbs of Melbourne, our region. The AFL have a responsibility to the code and Australia to support the Western Bulldogs in expanding this richest of converts regions, with resources more in proportion with its expansion efforts in farther fetched fields!
Gill McLachlan and AFL board: acknowledge the importance of the Western Bulldogs in expanding the code in the western suburbs by resourcing it, instead of leaving it up to the club to do it on its own, whilst wealth is spent elsewhere for dubious returns. The time is now, the region is ready to be claimed now but won't wait if ignored.
AFL: the builder's home is never finished; don't ignore your backyard while you lairise in regions less productive!