The Moving Rolling De-Listing/Trading Thread 2016

[bulldogtragic]

In: pick 50, 2017 Norf 3rd rounder, 2017 Saints 5th rounder
Out: Hrovat, Stevens, pick 61, 2017 Dogs 3rd rounder, 2017 Dogs 4th rounder

The 5th and 4th round swaps next year most likely won't even be used by either club. Not great but better than nothing - player retention and drafting is our priority as it should be.

Not much better than nothing as Stevens/Hrovat tied up. Koby is a nil all draw. Hrovat is maybe a 10 pick upgrade in the third round next year. Bugger all.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I think Cloke might surprise a few people

[Bulldog Joe]

Not sure why so many feel that we have performed poorly in the trade.

What have we done.

We have opened up 3 lists spots that we needed and given fringe players a chance to continue their career elsewhere.
We have added Travis Cloke for the loss of Joel Hamling.

We have improved our starting draft position from 18, 40, 58 to 18, 26, 51.

I think we are well placed.

[Remi Moses]

Interesting, in that people were prepared to drive hamling back to W.A six months back.
Not sure what plan b after Hurley was meant to be .

[G-Mo77]

Interesting, in that people were prepared to drive hamling back to W.A six months back.
Not sure what plan b after Hurley was meant to be .

And showed he could play when it really counted. Huge loss for us and very little return for him.

[Ozza]

Interesting, in that people were prepared to drive hamling back to W.A six months back.
Not sure what plan b after Hurley was meant to be .

Not sure who the people wanting to drive Hamling back to WA were. I don't recall much negativity at all regarding Hamling - and think he is a pretty big loss.

[Remi Moses]

I think Cloke might surprise a few people

He's got a point to prove .

[bornadog]

Not sure why so many feel that we have performed poorly in the trade.

What have we done.

We have opened up 3 lists spots that we needed and given fringe players a chance to continue their career elsewhere.
We have added Travis Cloke for the loss of Joel Hamling.

We have improved our starting draft position from 18, 40, 58 to 18, 26, 51.

I think we are well placed.

I am happy with what we have done:

Start of trade week we had 18, 40 and 3 x 4th rounders and end up with 18 26 and 50 as well as Cloke, and future picks.

* Hamling a loss - 23 game player who only came good towards the end of Season. Still has some doubts on the mental side of his game.

* Stevens - played probably 3 good games in four seasons, averaging only 20 disposals per game

* Hrovat - lots of potential, but in 4 seasons played 30 games

[Sedat]

Not much better than nothing as Stevens/Hrovat tied up. Koby is a nil all draw. Hrovat is maybe a 10 pick upgrade in the third round next year. Bugger all.
If 4th and 5th round picks are used next year on live picks I agree they are disappointing trades. But with only around 70 live picks in the ND these late picks tend to get used on rookie upgrades. So in real terms we get an 11 pick upgrade in the 3rd round on Stevens this year and an 8-12 pick upgrade in the 3rd round on Hrovat next year. Not a disaster for a couple of fringe players not under contract and likely delist candidates in 12 months time had they been under contract.

[Remi Moses]

And showed he could play when it really counted. Huge loss for us and very little return for him.

What hand did the club have ? Played the " homesick card" . Would he have played if Adams was fit ?

[Ozza]

What hand did the club have ? Played the " homesick card" . Would he have played if Adams was fit ?

Yes, he'd have been playing in front of Fletch.
Not many players going around have the athleticism to play on all of Cyril Rioli, Buddy Franklin, Josh Kennedy and Jeremy Cameron at stages during the one finals series.

[G-Mo77]

What hand did the club have ? Played the " homesick card" . Would he have played if Adams was fit ?

Not sure on Adams, moot point though. Hamling did play and played really well. His best fit our system perfectly.

I'm not blaming the club for the return for Hamling. I've said many times on here we were over a barrel. Saying it's a win/win trade is completely laughable.

[Remi Moses]

Yes, he'd have been playing in front of Fletch.
Not many players going around have the athleticism to play on all of Cyril Rioli, Buddy Franklin, Josh Kennedy and Jeremy Cameron at stages during the one finals series.
Nobody actually plays on anyone now , as they just roll off opponents with third ups . He was out of contract and they'd finished near the bottom. No hand to play . I'm disappointed he's gone, but he wanted out .
Stevens couldn't get a game with all our injuries, and Hrovat couldn't get a crack at it.We also have a few coming out of contract in the next 12 to 24 months . J.J is a big signature for next season

[Remi Moses]

Not sure on Adams, moot point though. Hamling did play and played really well. His best fit our system perfectly.

I'm not blaming the club for the return for Hamling. I've said many times on here we were over a barrel. Saying it's a win/win trade is completely laughable.
We were always going to get a pick in the 30's for Hamling . They would never give up a first for him

[G-Mo77]

We were always going to get a pick in the 30's for Hamling . They would never give up a first for him

I'm pretty sure most were aware it's all we were going to get for him. Regardless it's a kick in the teeth. Lets hope Collins comes of age in 2017. We're going to need him.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I would've liked us to have made enquiries on defender Pat McKenna who went from GWS to the Dees along with picks 51 and 69 for Melbourne's picks 57 and 59.

[chef]

Not sure on Adams, moot point though. Hamling did play and played really well. His best fit our system perfectly.

I'm not blaming the club for the return for Hamling. I've said many times on here we were over a barrel. Saying it's a win/win trade is completely laughable.

Theres every chance Hamling may never play up to his finals Purple patch ever again too.

[The Doctor]

I think it's significant we have held our 1st pick in this draft and moved up the order significantly with our 2nd and 3rd picks.

There would have been a lot of temptation to trade off our 1st in a top type deal (ie Deledio) and thankfully that didn't happen.

Cloke for free is a great result and reduces the pressure on us to reach in the draft for a young kp. This allows us to focus on best available and this shouldn't be overlooked as a significant result for us.

Picks 18, 26 & 50 in a very strong draft given our starting position is a very good result. I would expect 3 fine young footballers to add to our depth.


so at present we have


Off: Minson, Hamling, Hrovat, Stevens, and rookies Adcock & Goetz

On: Cloke, picks, 18, 26 & 50 and 2 rookie choices

I would also let Prudden go and possibly rookie him and use another pick in the ND or a DFA like Richards.

[Mofra]

Not sure why so many feel that we have performed poorly in the trade.

What have we done.

We have opened up 3 lists spots that we needed and given fringe players a chance to continue their career elsewhere.
We have added Travis Cloke for the loss of Joel Hamling.

We have improved our starting draft position from 18, 40, 58 to 18, 26, 51.

I think we are well placed.
I think we've done ok, not great.

Signing Hamilton made it hard for us to pick off a value trade (e.g. Stewart from GWS as a developing tall).
Xav Richards could have also been a player we look to for injury cover, given this year is light on for talls so we're probably going to take three mids/running types.

[The Doctor]

duplicate post

[GVGjr]

My take, the aim for a trade period is to achieve at least one of the following options, 1) Improve your position within the upcoming draft, 2) Address gaps within your list, 3) A combination of both previous options, 4) Set yourself up for the following year by clearing players and giving yourself more options in the draft.

The positive is that we improved our draft position slightly which was a bit of a win but nothing substantial.
The negative is that we didn't address the gaps within the list unless there is something to come via a FA pick but that's unlikely.

We lost 4 players with senior experience, Minson delisted, Hamling heading back home, Hrovat and Stevens for bits and pieces.
We gained Travis Cloke who committed to us before the finals.

Overall and to quote George Costanza (when talking about the qualities of Steven Koren for an internship) "Not falling behind, not showing off"

The next steps?

The National Draft is quite straight forward, draft the 3 or 4 best players available. In the the Rookie Draft look to get a ruckman and hopefully an experienced player.

Over the preseason, we need to work very hard on developing players to come in and provide options to cover the players we lost.
Over the next 12 months we need to plan cover the likes of Murphy, Morris, M.Boyd and Adams.

And once round 1 comes along....start a long winning streak.

[Bulldog Joe]

Theres every chance Hamling may never play up to his finals Purple patch ever again too.

So we are expecting him to be less Purple when in Purple (sorry couldn't resist)

[chef]

So we are expecting him to be less Purple when in Purple (sorry couldn't resist)

TBH i did pun that on purpose:p

[Rocket Science]

My take, the aim for a trade period is to achieve at least one of the following options, 1) Improve your position within the upcoming draft, 2) Address gaps within your list, 3) A combination of both previous options, 4) Set yourself up for the following year by clearing players and giving yourself more options in the draft.

The positive is that we improved our draft position slightly which was a bit of a win but nothing substantial.
The negative is that we didn't address the gaps within the list unless there is something to come via a FA pick but that's unlikely.

We lost 4 players with senior experience, Minson delisted, Hamling heading back home, Hrovat and Stevens for bits and pieces.
We gained Travis Cloke who committed to us before the finals.

Overall and to quote George Costanza (when talking about the qualities of Steven Koren for an internship) "Not falling behind, not showing off"

The next steps?

The National Draft is quite straight forward, draft the 3 or 4 best players available. In the the Rookie Draft look to get a ruckman and hopefully an experienced player.

Over the preseason, we need to work very hard on developing players to come in and provide options to cover the players we lost.
Over the next 12 months we need to plan cover the likes of Murphy, Morris, M.Boyd and Adams.

And once round 1 comes along....continue a long winning streak.

Fixed for accuracy and general gloatiness.

[bulldogtragic]

Prudden for Xavier Richards would be a good movement for list balance.

[Scorlibo]

Koby Stevens compensation is pretty disappointing. He'd been on a clear upward trend since arriving at the football club, is about to hit his peak physically at 25 and has played over half the home and away games in every season at the Dogs despite injuries the last couple of years. It would have been a no-brainer keeping him on the list, which usually means that you'd expect something in return - we got nothing. We get a late pick upgrade this year, they get a late pick upgrade next year. That's net zero.

[hujsh]

Prudden should be a rookie at best. Agree that Richards would be a good pickup for balance but otherwise I'd be happy to see Rourke Smith on the main list. If Prudden's good enough there should be plenty of room to promote him with Redders and Wallis missing most of the year.

[Templeton31]

A point from JMac's trade period summary that was relevant - essentially we weren't sure who to delist. He said you have to take 3 draft picks so have to trim the list by 3. (Now my add on) Additionally we wanted Cloke for list balance and knew he was coming in. Against that it was obvious to all and sundry Big Will was gonna finish up. So if no-one wanted out who would we have delisted? Prudden I would think. Would M Boyd then have not been offered a contract? I reckon Koby might have been next player delisted? Thats without even allowing for wanting to promote Roarke onto the main list. A good position to be in but difficult. Makes sense why we waited to see who wanted out of uncontracted players or who found new homes.

[Bulldog4life]

A point from JMac's trade period summary that was relevant - essentially we weren't sure who to delist. He said you have to take 3 draft picks so have to trim the list by 3. (Now my add on) Additionally we wanted Cloke for list balance and knew he was coming in. Against that it was obvious to all and sundry Big Will was gonna finish up. So if no-one wanted out who would we have delisted? Prudden I would think. Would M Boyd then have not been offered a contract? I reckon Koby might have been next player delisted? Thats without even allowing for wanting to promote Roarke onto the main list. A good position to be in but difficult. Makes sense why we waited to see who wanted out of uncontracted players or who found new homes.

Good points plus no one on WOOF has been privy to what Bevo said at the players exit interviews. Bevo might have been very blunt.

[FrediKanoute]

Prudden should be a rookie at best. Agree that Richards would be a good pickup for balance but otherwise I'd be happy to see Rourke Smith on the main list. If Prudden's good enough there should be plenty of room to promote him with Redders and Wallis missing most of the year.

This. We forget Rourke Smith who in my mind should be on the main list. Good sized player with heaps of upside.

[KT31]

This. We forget Rourke Smith who in my mind should be on the main list. Good sized player with heaps of upside.

No need to place him on the main list when we have injuries that already go deep into next season.

[1eyedog]

This. We forget Rourke Smith who in my mind should be on the main list. Good sized player with heaps of upside.

80 kg and under 6 foot? Do you mean he can play taller?

[GVGjr]

80 kg and under 6 foot? Do you mean he can play taller?

I think he has a long way to go to reach his limit but I do believe can play on a variety of opponents given he has a good leap.
2017 is a huge season for him if he is to become a senior player.

[bulldogtragic]

Just flicking through our recent last person on the list. To me it says Prudden should be off the primary list:

2011: Fletch Roberts PSD, Dickson last picked
2012: Ed's brother (delisted free agent)
2013: Tom Young (nothing trade) & Sam Darley (both very good VFL players, but got them wrong)
2014: Shane Biggs (steak knives trade) & Hamling (delisted free agent)
2015: Suckling (free agent) (Jarrad Grant making way after the trade period)

Ed's brother was only ever always a short term option. So of the rest, 5 of the 7 players that effectively took last spots on the list are playing AFL next year. On that exposed form, I'd rather look at a delisted free agent or failing that, the draft. We seem be able to speculate pretty good on players not getting much of a run at other clubs.

[1eyedog]

I think he has a long way to go to reach his limit but I do believe can play on a variety of opponents given he has a good leap.
2017 is a huge season for him if he is to become a senior player.

I tend to agree. He's strong in the air so can play on taller opponents, but only insomuch as a Biggs type player could. He's got a nice left foot and moves across the ground well and, as per his debut against West Coast, seems to be a player-type the MC are keen on.

Seems eager and looks coachable as well.

[GVGjr]

An unexpected announcement. Good luck to Josh as he hopefully moves to the rookie list.

So that's Minson, Hamling Hrovat, Stevens and Prudden off the senior list and Cloke is added to it.
Potentially 4 picks in the draft or the ability to acquire a FA.



The Western Bulldogs have today confirmed their list changes for 2017.

Will Minson will depart the Club, after announcing earlier this month 2016 would be his last season with the Bulldogs.

Josh Prudden was informed he would not be offered a senior contract for 2017, but the Club will re-select him in the NAB AFL Rookie Draft on 28 November.

Bulldogs List Manager Jason McCartney acknowledged both players.

“Will had a big impact on and off the field in his 13 years, as a former All-Australian and now a VFL premiership player.

“We want to thank him for his valuable contribution during that time and we wish him the very best for his next steps.

“Josh is progressing well through his knee rehabilitation and we are committed to selecting Josh as a rookie for the 2017 season.”

The Club also confirmed rookies Roarke Smith (third year) and Brad Lynch (second year) would be retained for 2017.

Jed Adcock (retired) and Luke Goetz (not retained) will make way for Prudden, and one other rookie-listed player – to be finalised at November’s rookie draft.

[comrade]

Good move, IMO.

3 picks in the draft and a crack at a DFA like O'Shea, Richards or Litherland.

[bornadog]

As expected for Prudden, the club is sticking with him after his knee. He has shown potential at VFL level and in a couple of senior games.

Lynch and Roarke are still young and can prove them selves over the next year or so.

[GVGjr]

As expected for Prudden, the club is sticking with him after his knee. He has shown potential at VFL level and in a couple of senior games.

Lynch and Roarke are still young and can prove them selves over the next year or so.

I reckon that is a kind assessment of Prudden BAD because he hasn't been on the park enough to judge that properly.

R.Smith and Lynch are shaping as additions to the senior list during next season.

[Axe Man]

Good decisions all around. Prudden gets one last chance, Roarke Smith will get senior opportunities from the rookie list to show he deserves a main list spot and we give ourselves the room to sign a DFA.

[comrade]

5 new players to be added to the list (likely to be 3 draftees (inc 2 top 30 prospects), 1 DFA for position depth & another rookie). Nice injection into the premiership list.

[bulldogtragic]

Happy with this, not so much the rookie listing. Three half back flankers, two with ACLs in 18 months. So one pick in the RD effectively.

You'd think we have a DFA in mind.

[bulldogtragic]

I reckon that is a kind assessment of Prudden BAD because he hasn't been on the park enough to judge that properly.

R.Smith and Lynch are shaping as additions to the senior list during next season.

Yep, with 6+ changes next year if they put another good season together they jump up. Good timing if it eventuates.

[bornadog]

I reckon that is a kind assessment of Prudden BAD because he hasn't been on the park enough to judge that properly.

Played 4 AFL games on top of his VFL season last year, and I thought he showed potential and that is why the club is keeping him.

[comrade]

Putting aside Prudden's on field ability, keeping him on reinforces to the playing group that we will do the right thing by them. It's impossible to measure, but you could argue that unity and morale won us a premiership and acts like this help to foster that.

It's why I think Hawks are in for a decent slide next year. Would you die for your teammates and coaches if you know you're considered expendable.

[GVGjr]

So my guess is that we will add one delisted FA, three players at the National Draft and one at the rookie draft if we assume Prudden is a done deal.
I think this possibly weakens our ability to either draft or rookie list a ruckman.

We have Mitch Wallis and Jack Redpath effectively on the LTIL so that means R.Smith (most likely) will be promoted to the senior list.

[GVGjr]

Played 4 AFL games on top of his VFL season last year, and I thought he showed potential and that is why the club is keeping him.

Stats wise, and you love your stats :), he had one good senior game and he was subbed out by 3 quarter time in that.

He's had just 22 VFL games since he was drafted and 4 senior games in 4 years at the club.
Potential is all good and well, most players drafted have potential, but I think the club is sticking with him because he has a first rate attitude and we are very hopeful he will get over his injuries.

[GVGjr]

Putting aside Prudden's on field ability, keeping him on reinforces to the playing group that we will do the right thing by them. It's impossible to measure, but you could argue that unity and morale won us a premiership and acts like this help to foster that.

It's why I think Hawks are in for a decent slide next year. Would you die for your teammates and coaches if you know you're considered expendable.

Good point, it's just a shame we haven't been able to see more of him to know if he is capable of being a solid senior footballer. The problem is for him and us is that we are deep at the position he is best suited to.
When you think that we cut players every year who have done a lot more than Prudden I hope he realises how generous the club has been with him.

[kruder]

You would have to say Lynch has shown more than JJ had at this stage of their career. There seems to be a fair bit of love for him at club and although raw he has serious AFL traits with his speed, agility and kicking ability. I'd be stunned if he wasn't on the senior list in 2018.

[soupman]

The problem is for him and us is that we are deep at the position he is best suited to.

On the flip side though we also play deep in that position, often sacrificing talls for additional rebounding defenders. So that means we need more cover for what is a pretty big part of our lineup and the way we play. As an example most sides play with 2 maybe 3 rebounding type defenders, we are more around the 4-5 mark.

Also to me he presents as more of an accumulator half back who is tidy with his disposal, like Boyd. He isn't the linebreaking half back that Lynch and Smith would be picked to be so offers a slight point of difference.

Also many of our starting halfbacks (Suckling, JJ particularly, and Murphy could play elsewhere) aren't limited to just halfback meaning we could shuffle the lineup.

I agree we have a lot of depth in that spot but Bevo has proven it's a position he needs a lot of bodies to rotate through, while he has been happy, either through necessity or design, to have very few talls in his matchday squad.

[GVGjr]

You would have to say Lynch has shown more than JJ had at this stage of their career. There seems to be a fair bit of love for him at club and although raw he has serious AFL traits with his speed, agility and kicking ability. I'd be stunned if he wasn't on the senior list in 2018.

I'd be interested in others thoughts as well but I agree that he is an exciting prospect.

[soupman]

You would have to say Lynch has shown more than JJ had at this stage of their career. There seems to be a fair bit of love for him at club and although raw he has serious AFL traits with his speed, agility and kicking ability. I'd be stunned if he wasn't on the senior list in 2018.
Yep agreed although unlike JJ he has been given more of an opportunity to display it. From memory JJ spent most of his first year in the Williamstown reserves.

I'm pretty excited about what he brings. Again though I'd hope we only promote him off the rookie list if we see him as best 25, otherwise you keep rookies on there as long as possible. The club has shown a willingness to do this also. Jong, Campbell, Smith and Redpath are the most recent bunch of rookies we have had that look AFL quality, and all showed this by the end of their second year, as I anticipate Lynch will. All were made to see out the full 3 years though, allowing the club much greater flexibility with the list.

You don't promote rookies just cause you think they might occasionally be in the mix, otherwise you get stuck with Mulligan, Hooper and Panos clogging up the list with inflexible contracts for absolutely no gain.

[comrade]

Lynch has a couple of elite traits which make me pretty bullish: he is precise off both feet and he is quick.

He also seems to have a decent footy IQ and knows where the goals are.

The only knock is he is extremely outside, is easy to physically pressure and can go missing for chunks of game time. All the hall marks of a young, developing flanker.

His development next year, along with Bailey Williams', will be exciting to watch.

Plus Webb and Dale and Collins and the new boys we bring in via the draft. An embarrassment of youthful riches for the new VFL head coach.

[kruder]

Yep agreed although unlike JJ he has been given more of an opportunity to display it. From memory JJ spent most of his first year in the Williamstown reserves.

I'm pretty excited about what he brings. Again though I'd hope we only promote him off the rookie list if we see him as best 25, otherwise you keep rookies on there as long as possible. The club has shown a willingness to do this also. Jong, Campbell, Smith and Redpath are the most recent bunch of rookies we have had that look AFL quality, and all showed this by the end of their second year, as I anticipate Lynch will. All were made to see out the full 3 years though, allowing the club much greater flexibility with the list.

You don't promote rookies just cause you think they might occasionally be in the mix, otherwise you get stuck with Mulligan, Hooper and Panos clogging up the list with inflexible contracts for absolutely no gain.

Good points.Hooper still gives me nightmares! Nothing against the kid but just didn't have one afl trait which was known prior to signing him for 3 years.

While we are on our half back line Williams will make a handy partner to Lynch in the years to some. He is a 250 gamer if i have ever seen one, he has time, nice side step, good above his head and a neat kick indeed. Another one of Dalys natural footballers who can win their own footy and wouldn't be surprised if he ends up in the middle. Their is just so much upside to this group and we have just won a premiership!:cool:

[bulldogtragic]

I haven't heard or read anything about us being into any delisted free agents, has anyone heard/read anything credible in the woofersphere?

[Bulldog4life]

I haven't heard or read anything about us being into any delisted free agents, has anyone heard/read anything credible in the woofersphere?

Been looking every day. Zilch so far

[1eyedog]

Lynch has a couple of elite traits which make me pretty bullish: he is precise off both feet and he is quick.

He also seems to have a decent footy IQ and knows where the goals are.

The only knock is he is extremely outside, is easy to physically pressure and can go missing for chunks of game time. All the hall marks of a young, developing flanker.

His development next year, along with Bailey Williams', will be exciting to watch.

Plus Webb and Dale and Collins and the new boys we bring in via the draft. An embarrassment of youthful riches for the new VFL head coach.

Lynch is dynamite through traffic. some blokes are fast but don't know how to exploit it. He has confidence and takes them on at training and in the VFL.

[LostDoggy]

The other big plus with Lynch is that he is a very good kick with either foot. He has the potential to be a serious weapon. With Boyd, Murph and Morris all nearing the end, opportunities will open up in the back half.

[Twodogs]

Hehe. The rest of the company is going to be saying "where are all these great kids coming from all of a sudden"

[Doc26]

Lynch has a couple of elite traits which make me pretty bullish: he is precise off both feet and he is quick.

He also seems to have a decent footy IQ and knows where the goals are.

The only knock is he is extremely outside, is easy to physically pressure and can go missing for chunks of game time. All the hall marks of a young, developing flanker.

His development next year, along with Bailey Williams', will be exciting to watch.

Plus Webb and Dale and Collins and the new boys we bring in via the draft. An embarrassment of youthful riches for the new VFL head coach.


Has made me chuckle to hear some of the so called media experts suggest that we become vulnerable with the pending retirements of Boyd and Murphy in the next year or two. Although still prospects, our future half back line is full of some exciting promise and riches. Keeping the likes of Williams, Lynch, and Roarke may become our biggest challenge given the damaging skills they possess and how keen others may be to poach them. Hopefully they warrant and see enough opportunity in 2017.