3 Things I have learned - Bulldogs vs Hawks Round 3

[GVGjr]

Once the Round 3 match against Hawthorn is completed, let us know the three things you learned after watching the match.
This could be an exciting game.

As always, be constructive but be honest.

[GVGjr]

Bump

[bulldogtragic]

1. We do cruel endings really well
2. Devastated for Bob
3. With Crameri, Dickson, Cordy, Collins and another free agent or top pick type player. We should be the real deal.

[GVGjr]

1 - I believe
2 - I'm not sure AndrewP6 does ;)
3 - Kramer was right "poise counts"

[lemmon]

1. We're there. This group makes me feel like they'll be better for this

2. How confident is Roughy? Thought he could be a pretty solid ruck based on the first few weeks. I'm starting to think he could end up one of our best.

3. Redpath should be in the side. We were heavily reliant on that long bomb to Stringer, another tall up there would've helped today

[Go_Dogs]

1. We are capable of going the journey with this list, definitely.
2. Tom Boyd has the hunger. Some of his work today in the last was epic.
3. I am going to really struggle if Bob has done an ACL, the game can be very cruel.

[The Doctor]

1. we are still too inexperienced
2. we can play against the best
3. Stringer is not Ablett and if he thinks he is then send him to Footscray

[The Underdog]

1. Luke Dahlhaus may replace Bob as our heart and soul
2. Stringer can be beaten by a quality opponent
3. Suckling's experience in huge games paid off in the first half and may again

[FrediKanoute]

1. We have real fight as a team and refuse to accept we are beaten until we are - 5 goals down against the Hawks 2 years ago and it would have been a blowout.
2. Caleb Daniel is a gun - smart footballer who uses the ball well and can be damaging on the scoreboard.
3. Boyd/Roughhead should be our preferred ruck combination - mobile, agile, strong hands and competitive.

[AndrewP6]

1 - I believe
2 - I'm not sure AndrewP6 does ;)
3 - Kramer was right "poise counts"

That early post was off the back of dropping a full Scotch and coke about a minute before posting. $10.80 down the drain. Well, onto the concrete.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

1. We have heart, fight and fitness . Once we have execution down pat we will be a contender.
2. If Caleb Daniel was as tall as his detemination he'd be bigger than Sandilands
3. Libba's & Dahl's 3rd quarters proves they are superhuman.

[AndrewP6]

1. We can fight. And fight.
2. We are good but not good enough.
3. Dawks supporters are disgusting. Sledge our captain as he lay on the ground injured??? The karma bus will hit hard.


I also learnt to choose who takes my pic more carefully. Met Crammers at half time, sitting not far from me. "Photographer" takes 3 shots and not one was of me and Crammers. It's not that hard. On the upside, Crameri is a nice fella.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

1. Wood is our most important defender, not Murphy.

2. Dahl has incredible spirit and heart, wish we had more like him.

3. We still choke.

[anfo27]

1. That we are a genuine top 4 contender and you win flags from the top 4. Just a little disappointed it took us a quarter and a half to throw a punch but when we did gee it was special to watch.

2. Stringer needs to learn how to remain relaxed & composed in big games. Had a stinker today and it seemed the pressure is getting to him.

3. Need to learn how to play big games better. It was like we were waiting for a spark so we could get going. The experienced hawks don't need a spark they have played loads of big games and know what it takes to win.

[LostDoggy]

Things I have learned:

1. I have anger issues.
2. Easton Wood missing games sucks
3. I must be the only person in the world who gets frustrated with Libba at times. I absolutely love him, but geeeeez when he effs up it hurts.

[AndrewP6]

Things I have learned:

1. I have anger issues.
2. Easton Wood missing games sucks
3. I must be the only person in the world who gets frustrated with Libba at times. I absolutely love him, but geeeeez when he effs up it hurts.

Nah, a couple of his errors had me livid today. Glad he's back though.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

3. I must be the only person in the world who gets frustrated with Libba at times. I absolutely love him, but geeeeez when he effs up it hurts.

Nope.

Love him, but he made some very costly errors today.

[LostDoggy]

1. Caleb Daniel can marry my sister.
2. I can go from wanting a win more than life itself to not caring one iota in a split second, which coincided with footage of Bob.
3. We are the real deal. Loss or not, the lid is rattling.

[LostDoggy]

Things I have learned:

1. I have anger issues.
2. Easton Wood missing games sucks
3. I must be the only person in the world who gets frustrated with Libba at times. I absolutely love him, but geeeeez when he effs up it hurts.


Nah, a couple of his errors had me livid today. Glad he's back though.


Nope.

Love him, but he made some very costly errors today.

Nah if I was female I'd bear his children. Glad he's back.

[bulldogtragic]

Nah if I was female I'd bear his children. Glad he's back.

If Caleb Daniel is marrying your sister, and you're having Libba's baby (if you had a womb, and you don't, which is no ones fault, not even the Romans) then I've got to get into your family gatherings somehow. :D

[The Doctor]

If we didn't have Libba today we would have lost by 5 goals

[bulldogtragic]

Nah, a couple of his errors had me livid today. Glad he's back though.

3rd serious proper game since blowing his knee out last year. I think we can live with a few errors as he continues to get back onto the trajectory his career was taking before the injury.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

If we didn't have Libba today we would have lost by 5 goals

I was surprised when I saw his stats. They don't reflect how important he was today. Every time it looked as if the ball was coming out of a scramble for Hawthorn, he'd get either a vice like grip on the ball, or deflect it, cause another contest fora the ball or wrap the player up and not let them get it out. In the 3rd especially it felt like he was pivotal to us getting back in the game, right from the coalface.

[AndrewP6]

3rd serious proper game since blowing his knee out last year. I think we can live with a few errors as he continues to get back onto the trajectory his career was taking before the injury.

Agreed, I did say I was glad he's back.

[bornadog]

3. We still choke.

Can't agree with this comment. Hawks had all the momentum in the last. They switched Burgoyne, Lewis and Mitchell into the centre and were outplaying us. We fought hard and got back in and hit the front at the 31 minute mark. We should have had players in the back half instead of all surging forward, but they got it out the back and won.

WE lost the game Because we didn't take our chances early on with lots of missed shots.

We smashed them in the Cont poss, clearances, stoppages, but just couldn't hit the score board.

[SquirrelGrip]

1. We miss Tory Dickson as that extra avenue to goal.
2. Caleb Daniel could win a Brownlow one day.
3. Tom Boyd took another big step.

[Sedat]

3. We still choke.
We sure do. Forget about our past chokers, this group has to learn to grind out tight wins against good opposition. I was filthy after the final loss last year because we let a clear win slip in an important match, and we did it again today. We pulverized the opposition in both matches - smashed them in CP's and clearances - but we simply failed to get the job done. Can't say I'm not used to it - has basically been happening for 40 years (except for super flood in 2000).

We are a good footy team, of that there is no doubt. But what will happen when we are in the same situation again in the future? I simply expect us to find a way to lose, because that is what we've always done and that is what this new group has learnt to do.

Get well Bob :(

[ratsmac]

1. The footy gods barrack for the Hawks and we are their worst team. Bob does his knee 30 seconds to go and the player he is trying to defend kicks the winning goal. My heart actually broke!

2. Stringer is not super human. I actually thought he came from the planet krypton. Apparently not. He stuffed up a couple of golden chances today.

3. We will be a force (if we aren't already) soon. We showed incredible character today. I'm a proud bulldogs supporter tonight but I'm still bitterly disappointed we let that one slip.

[Sedat]

3. Dawks supporters are disgusting. Sledge our captain as he lay on the ground injured??? The karma bus will hit hard.
They would need about 50 consecutive years of heartbreaking finals losses to have the karma ledger squared.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

The loss is no doubt magnified by the horrible injury to Murph. I don't think we choked today, we didn't get stage fright, we stuffed up. We failed to organise ourselves in the last 90 seconds.
How quick we are to forget we stuck to the task against the Swans last year in the wet, and in Sydney to win a tight one.
No doubt we need to get better, much more consistent in close games. But I don't believe we choked today.

[AndrewP6]

They would need about 50 consecutive years of heartbreaking finals losses to have the karma ledger squared.

That sounds good to me.

[Greystache]

They would need about 50 consecutive years of heartbreaking finals losses to have the karma ledger squared.

Yep, you just knew Sicily would kick the goal to win the match. Put him in a Bulldog's jumper and he'd be lucky to sneak it in for a behind. Some clubs win when the moment comes and some clubs lose. Karma won't get the Hawks, when this team starts losing they'll be back to playing in front of 16,000 people, then when they start climb back up the ladder again they'll win more flags.

[bulldogtragic]

Yep, you just knew Sicily would kick the goal to win the match. Put him in a Bulldog's jumper and he'd be lucky to sneak it in for a behind. Some clubs win when the moment comes and some clubs lose. Karma won't get the Hawks, when this team starts losing they'll be back to playing in front of 16,000 people, then when they start climb back up the ladder again they'll win more flags.

I was hoping Bob would call a stretcher, and thereby making him think about the shot for 3 or 4 minutes for any pressure.

[Flamethrower]

1. We need to be more composed in these blockbuster games. We were rattled early, and the last 2 minutes was diabolical. How we let them outnumber us in their forward line when we were in front I will never know - push the forwards up around the ball and outnumber them in our backline. It's not rocket science.

2. Dahl & Caleb have hearts as big as Big Tom.

3. To be dominated early & turn it all around against the best of the best means we passed the audit - we are contenders this year,

[SonofScray]

1. There is a monkey on the back of this Club and I'm not quite sure we've shaken it. Big games and big moments, we just can't nail them. I feel like this squad is almost at a tipping point in terms of shaking it off, slitting its throat and drinking its blood out of a Premiership cup but each time we lose these type of games it sinks its claws in a bit deeper.

2. Footy can be and often is, cruel. Bob simply has to get right and play again for this Club.

3.Hawthorn are an incredibly dirty team. I know they have the 'unsociable' footy tag, but fair dinkum I would have accepted a player like Hamling king hitting one of them today, or spilling some cottage cheese out of Sam Mitchell's ears. We absorbed their physicality and served up a pretty good performance in the pressure stakes, but I really wanted to see some blood.

[LostDoggy]

1. Too many "official tipsters" went for us which is always a problem.
2. That free to Rioli against Suckling for deliberate out of bounds and the one to McEvoy against Morris was not too high. As both resulted in goals they were very unfair!!!
3. I liked how our players got on top of the hawks and unfortunately the siren at the end was two minutes late!

[Stefcep]

1. Hawthorn are an ugly team when they look like getting over run.
2. We need to have cleaner hands and calmer heads under pressure.
3. High bombs to Stringer/ Boyd is not winning us a flag.

[Sedat]

1. We need to be more composed in these blockbuster games. We were rattled early, and the last 2 minutes was diabolical. How we let them outnumber us in their forward line when we were in front I will never know - push the forwards up around the ball and outnumber them in our backline. It's not rocket science.
In addition to the horror show of the last 2 minutes, we also gifted Hawthorn 2 simple goals early in the last qtr by letting the ball slip behind in marking contests - one by Hamling and one by Adams. They simply had to kill those contests and stop the ball slipping out the back for the likes of Rioli and Breust to feast on - that gave them a crucial run-on. It's might sound harsh, but do you think Hawthorn would accept such mistakes in a close loss? We need to become a ruthless, take-no-prisoners team, and only then will we truly contend for a premiership.

A poster before was bemoaning the so-called dirty tactics of some of the Hawks players, many of whom are 4-time premiership players and future AFL Legends and HoF members. I wish we had the same ruthless killer instinct in some of our players. We are so nice, respectful, even a touch naïve.

If we are to be serious as a club, we need to recognise our weaknesses and address them. There is a serious amount of talent at our club, enough to become a contender for the next few years, but it won't count for squat without that ruthless hard edge.

[Remi Moses]

It's a great post Sedat, and it's Something Adams and Hamling have to learn .
GibsonStratton and co have a few seasons on those two .

[comrade]

It's a great post Sedat, and it's Something Adams and Hamling have to learn .
GibsonStratton and co have a few seasons on those two .

Good point. One debuted last year and the other 3 weeks ago.

We can get caught up on letting another close one slip, same old Bulldogs, the curse of the Bambino etc, but most of the players out there are just pups still learning the caper.

When McLean, Daniel, Adams, Hamling, JJ, Stringer, Bonti, Macrae, Wallis, Dahl, T Boyd and others get to 75-100 games and beyond, do we think they'll still be having such lapses?

I doubt it.

[stefoid]

1. For some reason we forget Caleb Daniel is a young kid that weighs 70 kgs - maybe its the mature attitude and helmet that hides his boyish features, but his future is bright. In two years he will be a little battle-hardened ball of muscle.
2. So that was marcus Adams 3rd game of AFL footy? okay.....
3. Our front 6 is too young without Dicko and Crams. Adcock plays instead of Jong or McLean and we win I reckon.

[Ghost Dog]

1. There is a monkey on the back of this Club and I'm not quite sure we've shaken it. Big games and big moments, we just can't nail them. I feel like this squad is almost at a tipping point in terms of shaking it off, slitting its throat and drinking its blood out of a Premiership cup but each time we lose these type of games it sinks its claws in a bit deeper.

2. Footy can be and often is, cruel. Bob simply has to get right and play again for this Club.

3.Hawthorn are an incredibly dirty team. I know they have the 'unsociable' footy tag, but fair dinkum I would have accepted a player like Hamling king hitting one of them today, or spilling some cottage cheese out of Sam Mitchell's ears. We absorbed their physicality and served up a pretty good performance in the pressure stakes, but I really wanted to see some blood.

I don't think that's really logical. I know we are all a bit disappointed with the result, and Bob's injury, but Lukas Webb made us all remember there are much more important things in life. Right? Just watch a few Youtubes of week 1 and 2, the best tonic there is!

Richmond, Carlton, Essendon, Collingwood, all the big name clubs would be pretty jealous of a loss like that right now.

[Remi Moses]

1. Marcus Adams, he's marking reminds me of peter foster
2. We need to lose the deer in the headlights moments, as it happened for a quarter and a half , and in the last .
More composure in big moments
3. Football gods can go and f*** themselves re. Bob

[chef]

1. Im not buying this curse of the bambino, another typically Bulldog choke stuff. This team is the real deal and will be going places.

2. Love being so angry after a loss instead of disappointed. Shows where this group is at.

3. This game is so cruel. #doitforbob

[craigsahibee]

If Caleb Daniel is marrying your sister, and you're having Libba's baby (if you had a womb, and you don't, which is no ones fault, not even the Romans) then I've got to get into your family gatherings somehow. :D

1. I can still laugh a day after a heartbreaking loss. (see above)
2. Bob's extensive music collection must include some Metallica, so LARS is the way to go.
3. Caleb Daniel = Superb (and so is Lukey D.)

[westdog54]

1. Caleb will be regarded as the best of his draft by the end of his career.
2. Tom Boyd had a massive future as a second ruck. We won a few massive clearances when the whips were cracking because of his work.
3. We're not quite ready. But we will be.

[Templeton31]

1. We should've won without massive input from Jake, the Bont and of course absent Easton & Tory. Against Hawthorn. Its no longer a case of If but When.
2. I'm not going down the 'We're cursed' route because of the loss and Bob's injury. Every successful campaign has losses and injuries along the way - they just get glossed over in the aftermath of success. To those saying we don't stand up under pressure etc get out your replays of Swans or North game from last year.
3. Tom Boyd is coming. Its not a case of If but When.

[KT31]

1.I know its modern footy but I really hate having the ball in the centre then conceding ground by kicking it back to the oppositions goal square.

2. Stringer and Bonts are not infallible and if we are going to have a tilt at the flag we need them to stand up taller in the big games.

3.Dahl has a new running mate in Daniel and they will now need to be the heart of the team.

I didn't learn this but the game confirmed it, there is a hierarchy system as far as the umpires are concerned.

[jeemak]

1. Our hand ball skills need to be improved. We miss way too many high in close and now we have the ability and smarts to spread we need to ensure we don't put ourselves at a disadvantage

2. I already knew this, but Stringer isn't smart with the football and won't keep it simple. His talent is off the charts, but if there's a way to stuff up something straight forward he'll give it a shot. I really love him and what he brings to the game, but he frustrates me more than any other player because if he refined his thinking he'd be genuinely and consistently elite already

3. Toby McLean is already starting to frustrate the opposition through his weak at the knees routine and will get his head clipped by a retiring Hawks player in the next year or so

[jeemak]

1.I know its modern footy but I really hate having the ball in the centre then conceding ground by kicking it back to the oppositions goal square.

2. Stringer and Bonts are not infallible and if we are going to have a tilt at the flag we need them to stand up taller in the big games.

3.Dahl has a new running mate in Daniel and they will now need to be the heart of the team.

I didn't learn this but the game confirmed it, there is a hierarchy system as far as the umpires are concerned.

Like what you see when a minnow plays a big country at the FIFA World Cup?

[Dancin' Douggy]

1. we miss Crameri

2. we miss Dixon

3. we will miss Bob.

[Ghost Dog]

1. Hawthorn benefit from their finals experience.
2. Most of the difference is mettle, age, and some small skill errors.
3. We can find a way without our stars, and win in a variety of ways, or get close. Great sign.

4. Speedy recovery o captain my captain.

[1eyedog]

1. Eating an Etihad beef burger in one hand and holding a beer in the other and trying to scream at the top of your lungs when Shane Biggs drills a tight goal is beyond the capacity of the modern man.

2. Bailey Dale was walking around Level 1 during the game. He's taller than I thought, younger than I thought and said he's as keen as mustard to be out there.

3. Why would I pay $8+ for a Carlton Draught through dirty lines when i can pay $9.20 for someone to pour a crisp Fat Yak stubby into a cup?

[comrade]

We had the 2nd least amount of 100 gamers (5) behind the Lions for the round.

Doubt they would have gotten within 10 goals of the Hawks.

For the record, Hawthorn had the 2nd most (14).

[LostDoggy]

1.We can match it with the best and aren't afraid of anyone.
2.Hawtorn and their smug supporters really do give me the Shits.:mad:
3.Our time is now.

Side note-
Bob going down :( might just galvanise this group with a steely resolve to go all the friggin way!

[Bulldog4life]

1.We can match it with the best and aren't afraid of anyone.
2.Hawtorn and their smug supporters really do give me the Shits.:mad:
3.Our time is now.

Side note-
Bob going down :( might just galvanise this group with a steely resolve to go all the friggin way!

The hawthorn supporters near me on level 3 were celebrating like they had won a premiership.

[always right]

The hawthorn supporters near me on level 3 were celebrating like they had won a premiership.

Hawks family sitting alongside us with two young girls aged around 12 or 13 who became increasingly more annoying as the game progressed. Perhaps I'm small minded but I resented their smugness and privileged (football) life. At one stage they ordered lattes from their parents FFS.

They have only ever known success with their football team and it made me think how it should be mandatory for every young supporter to be forced to barrack for a lowly team for the first 15 years of their life. Pathetically I was looking forward to celebrating our win long and loud as they trudged out of Etihad Stadium in tears. Shit.

[Remi Moses]

Their fan base ( so loyal ) have a sense of entitlement about them that makes me violently ill .
You could literally fire a canon through Etihad in 04-06 when we played them and not hit one of their #alwaysHawthorn fan base

[comrade]

Thinking about this game a few days later and the 'curse' we've been afflicted with.

The Hawks lost this kind of game to Geelong constantly through 2008 (GF excepted) until 2012. No coincidence that Geelong was full of experienced multi-premiership stars whilst Hawks were generally still developing and perfecting their system and craft.

Once the majority of the group hit 75+ games, the magic happened.

Very analogous to how we currently sit as a playing list. The only thing that would make it even more similar was if we somehow stole this year's flag like that Hawks did in 2008.

Personally, I can't see that happening and feel we're more likely to really hit our straps when we have 10 or more players with over 100 games. If we don't win a flag then, I'll resign myself to never seeing one.

[comrade]

Following the above post here is the average age & experience of Hawthorn's premiership teams since 2008:

08: 25y & 107 games
13: 27y & 139 games
14: 27y & 137 games
15: 28y & 166 games

Our team from the weekend sat at 80 games & 24y 8months. Those numbers will only go down now Murph is gone for the year.

So, from a historical perspective, we seem to at least be a year (or 2) from matching the numbers of the 2008 Hawks team and besides the 2010 Collingwood team, the 2008 Hawks team is the youngest winner in the last 10 years.

My point is...we're going ok :D

[bulldogtragic]

Thinking about this game a few days later and the 'curse' we've been afflicted with.

The Hawks lost this kind of game to Geelong constantly through 2008 (GF excepted) until 2012. No coincidence that Geelong was full of experienced multi-premiership stars whilst Hawks were generally still developing and perfecting their system and craft.

Once the majority of the group hit 75+ games, the magic happened.

Very analogous to how we currently sit as a playing list. The only thing that would make it even more similar was if we somehow stole this year's flag like that Hawks did in 2008.

Personally, I can't see that happening and feel we're more likely to really hit our straps when we have 10 or more players with over 100 games. If we don't win a flag then, I'll resign myself to never seeing one.

Certainly a well rounded argument. They too recruited very well, had a large talent pool of elite talent. They also traded astutely to leap frog Geelong. Hale, Lake, McEvoy, Burgoyne, Gibson, Frawley (FA), Gunston, O'Rouke, Spangher, Ceglar (DFA).

This is the final piece of the puzzle of me. They recruited in Ceglar, Hale & McEvoy as rucks. We can too. You need to find a few gems in steak knives type trades, we got Biggs. They traded/recruited for need Lake, Gibson & Frawley. Shows at some point we might have to too. They were prepared to spend high picks often enough on good players and nailed the trades. Getting a good free agent as a bonus.

Natural development will take us really close on our talent pool, but confident trading and a free agent or two could be the difference. See Brad Ottens impact at Geelong too. The game on the weekend showed me (after annoyance abated) that we are around the mark now of being in the top 4-6 this year. Natural development gets us top 4 for many years. That I think we can bank on. That bloody elusive premiership, I think the difference will be how we trade/recruit for this and a few more years. With the numbers of players moving around as FA's and under contract and Essendon banned players as free agents, there's never been a better time to be near the top. Like Hawthorn and Geelong, if we can keep 200+ game gun players at the club for far less money then with our age profile you mention, we should hope to see an era that will keep us all warm in the next cold winter.

[Ghost Dog]

I don't see any grand narrative that forces us to follow other clubs. If we have the chance, we must take it now, not in a few years time. 4 points at a time, play by play. Remembering 2008 and being open to possibilities.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't see any grand narrative that forces us to follow other clubs. If we have the chance, we must take it now, not in a few years time. 4 points at a time, play by play. Remembering 2008 and being open to possibilities.

For sure, I don't think anyone is saying to sit on the sidelines this year. My point is that recruiting a heap of outstanding talents is a big piece of the premiership puzzle. That alone can grab a flag like 2008. To take real advantage of our position we can learn from what Hawthorn and others did to create a dynasty. Which was to astutely trade as their list was getting the experience, consequently they played in 4 grand finals in a row, winning 3 in a row. We are not forced to follow anyone, what we can do is examine what they did from 2008 onwards to create a stunning dynasty, and learn from it.

[Twodogs]

I've been thinking about this. I was there at the line in the sand game when Brereton implored the hawthorn guys at halftime to go out and headhunt against Essendon about ten or fifteen years ago. It looked stupid, they were getting thrashed and their answer was to come out after halftime and snipe and head hunt. It was fun watching it, a few Hawthorn players like Richie Vandenberg really had the blood lust, I can remember when it was all over an old lady sitting near me saying "geez, I enjoyed that!".

Anyway I don't really know why I am mentioning it except to wonder how much that day had to with the premiership hawthorn won in 2008?

[ledge]

The thing about the hawks and Geelong was recruiting a group of talented kids and bringing them up together and filling holes with experienced players of need when they were premiership bound.
We have now recruited our young kids and are ready to move.
I find it amazing clubs like RIchmond,Essendon, north and Collingwood to some degree, have the adage keep making finals every year so just keep recruiting older players and meanwhile the young kids never grow up as a group and actually play for each other.
The blue print is obvious nowadays you bottom out at some stage to bring in a group of kids.
Hawks and Geelong did it . We are doing it and Saints are doing it. Of course you have to have the right environment too, Melbourne is a prime example of getting in great kids but the development side is atrocious.

[Mantis]

Following the above post here is the average age & experience of Hawthorn's premiership teams since 2008:

08: 25y & 107 games
13: 27y & 139 games
14: 27y & 137 games
15: 28y & 166 games

Our team from the weekend sat at 80 games & 24y 8months. Those numbers will only go down now Murph is gone for the year.

So, from a historical perspective, we seem to at least be a year (or 2) from matching the numbers of the 2008 Hawks team and besides the 2010 Collingwood team, the 2008 Hawks team is the youngest winner in the last 10 years.

My point is...we're going ok :D

No one disputes that we aren't going ok.. It's just that at some point we have to start winning games we control.

Experience is certainly imporatnt and the more exposure our young players get to high pressured games can only help in their development, but lets take the example of Lachie Hunter.. He made a horrible skill error late in the EF last year where a well executed handball would have had Crameri running free inside our F50 with at least one player spare (Grant).. FF to last Sunday and he was still over-shooting handballs and not executing his skills as well as he should.. At what point do we make the call that he is continually going to let us down under pressure.. How would he have gone with the goal that Sicily kicked that iced the game? On previous form he would have been about a 20% chance of kicking that goal.. And he isn't alone, our players (young or old) just don't make the correct decisions under extreme pressure and it continually costs us wins in big games.

[1eyedog]

I've been thinking about this. I was there at the line in the sand game when Brereton implored the hawthorn guys at halftime to go out and headhunt against Essendon about ten or fifteen years ago. It looked stupid, they were getting thrashed and their answer was to come out after halftime and snipe and head hunt. It was fun watching it, a few Hawthorn players like Richie Vandenberg really had the blood lust, I can remember when it was all over an old lady sitting near me saying "geez, I enjoyed that!".

Anyway I don't really know why I am mentioning it except to wonder how much that day had to with the premiership hawthorn won in 2008?

Agree with all of this. I'd love to NOT be everyone's second team. I'd like to once say I'm a Bulldogs supporter and for the other person to say that I hate you guys. I don't want us to be liked because you feel sorry for us because we've never won a premiership in your lifetime, we're not a threat.

It's great Bob is a nice guy and I love Bob but I would love Bob more if he had Hodge's aggression on the field. Tahleya is a bollard but at least he shows aggression. I think Roughie, Tom Boyd, Stevens, Picken and Moz really need to get into oppositions faces.

[bornadog]

It's great Bob is a nice guy and I love Bob but I would love Bob more if he had Hodge's aggression on the field. Tahleya is a bollard but at least he shows aggression. I think Roughie, Tom Boyd, Stevens, Picken and Moz really need to get into oppositions faces.

I normally never watch a replay of a game when we lose, but last night I watched a bit of the second quarter, all of the third and part of the 4th (except last two minutes). I really like the way the team showed aggression, and backed each other when there was a scuffle. There was one in the 2nd quarter when we kicked a goal and something happened with Lewis (I didn't see), and guys like Roughie, The Bont and Stevens got stuck into him, bumping him pushing and I think Bonti punched him in the side. It was great to see, and Lewis ran back to the centre but looked upset. We really do have a bunch of tough players and by winning the contested poss. by 30, showed what we are made of.

I don't care if we are a bunch of nice guys off the field, but on the field we have to be aggressive and show no mercy.

These guys are really playing well together, sticking up for each other and jelling as a team. They fear no team and proved they can match the best in the AFL. After the weekend, teams will now fear us.

As Mantis says in post #66, we need to finish teams off. The most disappointing for me in the Hawks match was allowing them to kick 7 goals in the last quarter, when we were the ones that had all the momentum from the 3rd.

[Mantis]

I normally never watch a replay of a game when we lose, but last night I watched a bit of the second quarter, all of the third and part of the 4th (except last two minutes). I really like the way the team showed aggression, and backed each other when there was a scuffle. There was one in the 2nd quarter when we kicked a goal and something happened with Lewis (I didn't see), and guys like Roughie, The Bont and Stevens got stuck into him, bumping him pushing and I think Bonti punched him in the side. It was great to see, and Lewis ran back to the centre but looked upset. We really do have a bunch of tough players and by winning the contested poss. by 30, showed what we are made of.



Lewis had a dig at Toby McLean after he had 'drawn' a free kick by ducking into a tackle.. Lewis would know that McLean has prior form with this and I think would be letting him know that it's a shit look.

[always right]

Lewis had a dig at Toby McLean after he had 'drawn' a free kick by ducking into a tackle.. Lewis would know that McLean has prior form with this and I think would be letting him know that it's a shit look.

He should have introduced Toby to Puopolo.

[bornadog]

Lewis had a dig at Toby McLean after he had 'drawn' a free kick by ducking into a tackle.. Lewis would know that McLean has prior form with this and I think would be letting him know that it's a shit look.

Who cares if it is a shit look. If you drop the knees so what, I am ok with it.

[Ghost Dog]

For sure, I don't think anyone is saying to sit on the sidelines this year. My point is that recruiting a heap of outstanding talents is a big piece of the premiership puzzle. That alone can grab a flag like 2008. To take real advantage of our position we can learn from what Hawthorn and others did to create a dynasty. Which was to astutely trade as their list was getting the experience, consequently they played in 4 grand finals in a row, winning 3 in a row. We are not forced to follow anyone, what we can do is examine what they did from 2008 onwards to create a stunning dynasty, and learn from it.

You mean like the Brian Lake trade for Hawks. Yes, definitely.

[hujsh]

Their fan base ( so loyal ) have a sense of entitlement about them that makes me violently ill .
You could literally fire a canon through Etihad in 04-06 when we played them and not hit one of their #alwaysHawthorn fan base


Hawks family sitting alongside us with two young girls aged around 12 or 13 who became increasingly more annoying as the game progressed. Perhaps I'm small minded but I resented their smugness and privileged (football) life. At one stage they ordered lattes from their parents FFS.

They have only ever known success with their football team and it made me think how it should be mandatory for every young supporter to be forced to barrack for a lowly team for the first 15 years of their life. Pathetically I was looking forward to celebrating our win long and loud as they trudged out of Etihad Stadium in tears. Shit.

Hawks "fans" were leaving when we hit the lead. They won't stick around long if the team goes bad

[bornadog]

They won't stick around long if the team goes bad

True. My mate who I took along on Sunday is a full gold premiership club member with reserved seats etc etc, He has told me previously, if the Hawks start to drop on the ladder and into a rebuild phase, he won't renew his membership. I said what about supporting the team financially, and he said - "nah they have plenty of money". I think a lot of the Hawks supporters think this was, they are very spoilt.

[Sedat]

No one disputes that we aren't going ok.. It's just that at some point we have to start winning games we control.

Experience is certainly imporatnt and the more exposure our young players get to high pressured games can only help in their development, but lets take the example of Lachie Hunter.. He made a horrible skill error late in the EF last year where a well executed handball would have had Crameri running free inside our F50 with at least one player spare (Grant).. FF to last Sunday and he was still over-shooting handballs and not executing his skills as well as he should.. At what point do we make the call that he is continually going to let us down under pressure.. How would he have gone with the goal that Sicily kicked that iced the game? On previous form he would have been about a 20% chance of kicking that goal.. And he isn't alone, our players (young or old) just don't make the correct decisions under extreme pressure and it continually costs us wins in big games.
Yep, and whether it is 40 games or 80 games I don't think it makes any difference when it comes to skill errors or decision-making errors (which cost us the EF last year). Certainly positioning and reading of the play type stuff improves naturally from a 40 gamer to an 80 gamer, and this is what ultimately cost us on Sunday as opposed to a skill error/decision making error - that gives me some small consolation that we learnt some lessons from the EF loss to Sunday's loss, but I'd much rather we learn a lesson winning the 4 points :(

[Ozza]

No one disputes that we aren't going ok.. It's just that at some point we have to start winning games we control.

Experience is certainly imporatnt and the more exposure our young players get to high pressured games can only help in their development, but lets take the example of Lachie Hunter.. He made a horrible skill error late in the EF last year where a well executed handball would have had Crameri running free inside our F50 with at least one player spare (Grant).. FF to last Sunday and he was still over-shooting handballs and not executing his skills as well as he should.. At what point do we make the call that he is continually going to let us down under pressure.. How would he have gone with the goal that Sicily kicked that iced the game? On previous form he would have been about a 20% chance of kicking that goal.. And he isn't alone, our players (young or old) just don't make the correct decisions under extreme pressure and it continually costs us wins in big games.

Great call on Lachie Hunter.

I watched the game again last night, and whilst I like Lachie as a player overall, one of the things that stuck out was how he is such an ordinary handballer. His set shot kicking at goal sucks too - but the handballs drive me particularly nuts and he needs to fix this up. His technique is poor. As another poster pointed out last week, for any handball more than a few metres, he throws his whole body into it, and his accuracy goes out the window.

A few other observations from watching the tv version, as opposed to being there on the day;

- Bont's game was better than I thought. Although 'quiet' with 17 possesions, he has so much impact when he gets the ball. Made one error with a right foot pass, but I think that was more Gibson being brilliant at reading it, because it would have hit the dogs player on the chest otherwise.

- Stringer was infringed on a lot more than the one free kick he was awarded.

- I loved Dale Morris' game at the time. Loved it more on the replay. He's such a star.

- Biggs is going really well offensively, but needs to have a little bit better attention to detail defensively at times, letting opponents get goal side of him in contests and stoppages at time.

- I'd be happy for Suckling to go to the backline with Bob not there now. He can create goals from the defensive 50 with his left boot piercing the oppositions zone. His game was terrific.

[Sedat]

Agree with all of this. I'd love to NOT be everyone's second team. I'd like to once say I'm a Bulldogs supporter and for the other person to say that I hate you guys. I don't want us to be liked because you feel sorry for us because we've never won a premiership in your lifetime, we're not a threat.
This is why so many of us have such a great affinity with the 1997/98 wog squad years. We were pricks on the field and other teams couldn't stand us.

Hawthorn are ruthless and uncompromising on the field but they don't just rely on the one trick, they also have poise, skill and talent in spades. It is a potent mix, one that we have part of and hopefully will develop and refine the other part in time. You don't win consecutive PF's by under a kick without having a perfect combination of skill and ruthlessness, and you don't win PF's on the road in hostile territory (like Hawthorn did last year) without both elements either.

[Sedat]

Double post

[bornadog]

Stringer was infringed on a lot more than the one free kick he was awarded.

Straton had his arms wrapped around him in almost every marking contest.

[boydogs]

The most disappointing for me in the Hawks match was allowing them to kick 7 goals in the last quarter, when we were the ones that had all the momentum from the 3rd.

I don't think we're as fit as the Hawks yet, and Bevo knows it. We spent the last 5 minutes of the 3rd quarter wasting time when if anything we had the momentum

[Mantis]

I don't think we're as fit as the Hawks yet, and Bevo knows it. We spent the last 5 minutes of the 3rd quarter wasting time when if anything we had the momentum

With the pace of the game perhaps we burned through our subs a little too quickly and had to conserve our remaining ones for the last qtr? (Hence slow footy = no interchanges?)

I did notice on the replay that we didn't have many to play with from early on in the last qtr.

[comrade]

Certainly a well rounded argument. They too recruited very well, had a large talent pool of elite talent. They also traded astutely to leap frog Geelong. Hale, Lake, McEvoy, Burgoyne, Gibson, Frawley (FA), Gunston, O'Rouke, Spangher, Ceglar (DFA).

This is the final piece of the puzzle of me. They recruited in Ceglar, Hale & McEvoy as rucks. We can too. You need to find a few gems in steak knives type trades, we got Biggs. They traded/recruited for need Lake, Gibson & Frawley. Shows at some point we might have to too. They were prepared to spend high picks often enough on good players and nailed the trades. Getting a good free agent as a bonus.

Natural development will take us really close on our talent pool, but confident trading and a free agent or two could be the difference. See Brad Ottens impact at Geelong too. The game on the weekend showed me (after annoyance abated) that we are around the mark now of being in the top 4-6 this year. Natural development gets us top 4 for many years. That I think we can bank on. That bloody elusive premiership, I think the difference will be how we trade/recruit for this and a few more years. With the numbers of players moving around as FA's and under contract and Essendon banned players as free agents, there's never been a better time to be near the top. Like Hawthorn and Geelong, if we can keep 200+ game gun players at the club for far less money then with our age profile you mention, we should hope to see an era that will keep us all warm in the next cold winter.

Didn't think about the FA aspect. Agree that the loosening up of player movement should help us as we begin contending.

The Essendon scenario presents us with a great opportunity. Not sure how we can manage it, but adding a Hooker or Hurley to our list would just about top it off.

[bulldogtragic]

Didn't think about the FA aspect. Agree that the loosening up of player movement should help us as we begin contending.

The Essendon scenario presents us with a great opportunity. Not sure how we can manage it, but adding a Hooker or Hurley to our list would just about top it off.

The rumour mill is suggesting these two aren't going back to Essendon. The environment we have, and success we could have would make it an easy sell as a destination. The cash is the issue. Minson is gone by my guess, which frees up a spot and cash. Matty Boyd likewise. Assume one or two want a trade, like Honeychurch or Redpath. That frees up enough cash to be competitive in the race for at least one of them. I also like Bellchambers as a David Hale type ruck selection who can also walk free (not a gun, but is agile enough and can play forward). And we still have all our top end draft picks to use or trade. This free agency period could be better than Christmas for us if we can wrangle one or two we want. Plus Crameri comes back into the 22. Plus a first round pick in our pocket. Going after a fringe ruck with good enough potential and going after a big KPP, while keeping our top picks (or trading for a very good player) sounds very Hawthorn like (of their recent years).

[comrade]

Hopefully Crammers is doing some groundwork for us.

Remind me again, do Essendon get compo picks if they lose free agents?

If so, Hooker and Hurley leaving would likely means picks 1, 2 & 3 in the draft you'd think.

[westdog54]

Hopefully Crammers is doing some groundwork for us.

Remind me again, do Essendon get compo picks if they lose free agents?

If so, Hooker and Hurley leaving would likely means picks 1, 2 & 3 in the draft you'd think.

Hooker would be closer to an end of 1st round pick in my reckoning.

[bornadog]

Hooker would be closer to an end of 1st round pick in my reckoning.

Hawks are chasing Hooker as is Freo.

[Ghost Dog]

The rumour mill is suggesting these two aren't going back to Essendon. The environment we have, and success we could have would make it an easy sell as a destination. The cash is the issue. Minson is gone by my guess, which frees up a spot and cash. Matty Boyd likewise. Assume one or two want a trade, like Honeychurch or Redpath. That frees up enough cash to be competitive in the race for at least one of them. I also like Bellchambers as a David Hale type ruck selection who can also walk free (not a gun, but is agile enough and can play forward). And we still have all our top end draft picks to use or trade. This free agency period could be better than Christmas for us if we can wrangle one or two we want. Plus Crameri comes back into the 22. Plus a first round pick in our pocket. Going after a fringe ruck with good enough potential and going after a big KPP, while keeping our top picks (or trading for a very good player) sounds very Hawthorn like (of their recent years).

Why is Matty Boyd gone? Surely worth a 1 year contract at a low rate, if he continues as is?

[1eyedog]

Didn't think about the FA aspect. Agree that the loosening up of player movement should help us as we begin contending.

The Essendon scenario presents us with a great opportunity. Not sure how we can manage it, but adding a Hooker or Hurley to our list would just about top it off.

Would love Hurley - just the type of player we need. Big, aggressive, fast enough and strong. Also, he can play forward and back. Hurley, Stringer and Crameri in the team next year would be brute time.

I think this is Boyd's last year.

[Stefcep]

re: we're not ruthless enough etc

I can understand not having won a premiership in a lifetime why some would want us to become bastards on the field. But I don]t agree with it.

We haven't lost PF's and other close games like this one because we didn't infringe behind play, or take cheap shots or play the man and not the ball. We lost due to skill errors and decision making. We don't need to be cheat to change those things .

Which brings me to the skills issue: In other sports (soccer for eg which might not transfer to AFL) the thinking is if the core skills and decision making are not at a high level by age 14-15 then they never get there.

Take a kid like Caleb Daniel. Barely a dozen games and his skills ie clean hands, accurate kicks, decision making are IMO elite ( he's not an elite PLAYER, yet, but his skills IMO are). Now he didn't learn that since coming to us, he already had it.

In the Tom Boyd thread people said players don't practice basic skills like kicking for goal at training. Is that because these skills ought to be developed by now an tactics matter more? Someone identified errors with Boyd's kicking action-should these things have been addressed in his junior days?

The question I'd ask others who have coached and played at high level is can players with skills on the low end of the scale when they arrive can actually achieve elite level/ Or we should we be giving greater weighting on skill levels at recruitment time, rather than believe we can develop skills later?

[bulldogtragic]

Why is Matty Boyd gone? Surely worth a 1 year contract at a low rate, if he continues as is?

I don't think we can keep Bob and Matthew after this season. Both are club champs, no doubt, but I pick Bob.

[chef]

I don't think we can keep Bob and Matthew after this season. Both are club champs, no doubt, but I pick Bob.

If Boyds playing welll enough to hold his spot at the end of the season i think the decision should be his. We dont have a heap of old players so theres no need to push them out the door.

[bulldogtragic]

If Boyds playing welll enough to hold his spot at the end of the season i think the decision should be his. We dont have a heap of old players so theres no need to push them out the door.

That's for this season. For next season it's: Murphy, Wood, Biggs, JJ, Prudden (?), Dale, Webb, Cordy, Suckling, Dunkley maybe, Lynch, Williams, R. Smith and any recruits, trades or free agents. We need to move on probably 4 players, we need to have a balanced way of bringing in the future and handling retirements. If there's a massive difference between Boyd's Grand Final and the potential output of the next HBF'er behind him I'd agree. If the output between them is slender and another preseason will see the next best overtake him next year, then best thing for all is a great dignified send off.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

This should be Boyd's last year IMO.

Have said it multiple times, but I would absolutely love Hooker or Hurley in this side.

[jeemak]

I think Hodge is a prick on occasion and I dislike how he gets a free pass irrespective of the prickish and dirty things he does on the field from time to time. Yes he's skilled and hard, but he can be those things without being a dirty prick and I don't want our players to be like him.

Just in case I got in trouble I didn't want to pot Hunter's handballing skills, but I did notice the over-shoot that was reminiscent of the EF's dying seconds.

Much of our troubles with the football are largely related to mental fatigue and poise. I've seen the latter develop in players over time, I think in the vast majority of cases the younger players on our list will develop it.