ACLs: Bad luck or something else?

[bulldogtragic]

I've got no idea, so I preface the thread already. Hoping Slim might know more.

In just over 12 months Libba, C. Smith, R. Smith, Bob and Prudden (now confirmed by Bevo) have all done ACLs. Is this a simple bad run or symptomatic of a bigger problem?

[GVGjr]

At a complete guess I'd mark it down to bad luck. I'm not sure if how you are training can lead to a run of knee recontructions

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

Surface at Ethiad?

[GVGjr]

Surface at Ethiad?

From memory Roarke and Tom did their injuries at the WO and of course Prudden at Richmond today.

[bulldogtragic]

From memory Roarke and Tom did their injuries at the WO and of course Prudden at Richmond today.

Surface for training at WO? I don't know.

[Ozza]

The surface at Whitten Oval is magnificent.

Has to be just bad luck.

[Mantis]

The surface at Whitten Oval is magnificent.

Has to be just bad luck.

But is it the correct type of grass for football?

I always felt the 'creeping' type of grass that the WO has isn't great for changing direction on.

[Sedat]

Just bad luck - we had 5 ACL's in 2006 as well, all within a few weeks of each other.

The twisting and turning mechanism of an ACL tear could happen at any ground.

[SlimPickens]

I've got no idea, so I preface the thread already. Hoping Slim might know more.

In just over 12 months Libba, C. Smith, R. Smith, Bob and Prudden (now confirmed by Bevo) have all done ACLs. Is this a simple bad run or symptomatic of a bigger problem?

It's the nature of the sport. High impact, high speed, multiple directional and manic. Roarke did his at Werribee, Libba at WO, Clay at ES (twice), Prudden at Punt Road and Murph at ES. To blame the ground is too simplistic, they all had footy boots on yeah so that would be a factor, contact at the point of injury meaning less effective proprioception would be a factor and pretty much shit rotten luck.

With the exception of Clay 2nd time round on which I was very critical at how quick he came back, I can't see how you can minimise the risk with the way the sport is played.

[bulldogtragic]

I've got no idea, so I preface the thread already. Hoping Slim might know more.

In just over 12 months Libba, C. Smith, R. Smith, Bob and Prudden (now confirmed by Bevo) have all done ACLs. Is this a simple bad run or symptomatic of a bigger problem?

Add in Redders now tonight, again. 6 in 15 months seems way too high.

[lemmon]

Redders went off in the first half, hobbling in the hands of the trainers also. Was that unrelated? It looked a lot like the Clay situation last year

[Sedat]

Add in Redders now tonight, again. 6 in 15 months seems way too high.
Barrett will have a field day questioning why we brought Redders back on, similar to what he did when we did the same thing to Clay last year.

[bulldogtragic]

Barrett will have a field day questioning why we brought Redders back on, similar to what he did when we did the same thing to Clay last year.

Yep.

[jeemak]

I mentioned that in the game day thread.

The early incident looked like a knee. But there was talk by the commentators that it was ankle. If it was a mirror of the Smith incident there'll be an AFL enquiry.

[bornadog]

Redders went off in the first half, hobbling in the hands of the trainers also. Was that unrelated? It looked a lot like the Clay situation last year

Didn't look like a knee in the first incident.

[jeemak]

Didn't look like a knee in the first incident.

Watch a replay of it.

[bornadog]

Watch a replay of it.

I won't be watching one second of this game. ;)

From where we were sitting couldn't tell.

[bulldogtragic]

Watch a replay of it.

I know you're hurting too, but wishing one of us to ever watch a replay of any of tonight is just cruel! :D

[kruder]

When Redpath was testing the injury on the sideline he kept saying to the trainer/doc "its farkd" prior to going back on.

[bulldogtragic]

When Redpath was testing the injury on the sideline he kept saying to the trainer/doc "its farkd" prior to going back on.

Then things re going to get very, very, very messy.

[bornadog]

When Redpath was testing the injury on the sideline he kept saying to the trainer/doc "its farkd" prior to going back on.

Were you at the boundary line, or did someone tell you? (just interested)

[Sedat]

For the life of me I don't understand how any player can be brought back on after tearing an ACL. Having done an ACL myself, there is simply no ability to twist and turn, which is kind of important in a 360 degree game like footy. Then again I didn't study medicine at uni for 8 years.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Medicos should be investigated if true. Second time in 12 months.

[1eyedog]

Bringing a player on complaining of a shot knee contradicts the conservatism we've taken with injuries as a club this year.

[G-Mo77]

Medicos should be investigated if true. Second time in 12 months.

Absolutely. IF it is true then I'd stand them down. This will be hard to come back for Jack.

[Sedat]

Red's twisting motion when his knee collapsed in the last qtr looks and smells an awful lot like a knee with an already snapped ACL. I know that feeling of collapsing at the knee from twisting all too well, and I really feel for Red if he was brought back on with question marks around the knee. I was not convinced by our medico's statement after Clay did his last year and I'm skeptical about any rationale for doing the same thing to Red this time.

[Webby]

Red's twisting motion when his knee collapsed in the last qtr looks and smells an awful lot like a knee with an already snapped ACL. I know that feeling of collapsing at the knee from twisting all too well, and I really feel for Red if he was brought back on with question marks around the knee. I was not convinced by our medico's statement after Clay did his last year and I'm skeptical about any rationale for doing the same thing to Red this time.


Not saying it's a pleasant thought, but if it's gone, it's gone. Might as well get back out there and see. You can't do it twice... I realise that sounds slightly barbaric, but it's the reality.

[Sedat]

Not saying it's a pleasant thought, but if it's gone, it's gone. Might as well get back out there and see. You can't do it twice... I realise that sounds slightly barbaric, but it's the reality.
With no support mechanism of an ACL to stabilise the knee joint during twisting and turning motions, you can quite easily tear additional cartilage in the knee - cartilage of course doesn't grow back once torn so you end up with bone on bone later in your career/life. Bone on bone aint fun let me tell you.

If Red was brought on to help with rotations using the argument that no further damage can be done, that is not good enough IMO. I was critical of this line of thinking with Clay last year and I would be just as critical this time around.

[bulldogtragic]

Do we need to start thinking how risk management now of our list now? I think the stat is once an ACL is done there's a 60% recurrence risk which increases after subsequent ACLs. Bob (2), Redpath (3), C. Smith (3), R. Smith (1), Libba (1) & Prudden (1) have all had their most recent ACL in the last 15 months. The high likelihood of recurrence means we have a lot of risk on the list that players may be out for long periods again. I'm starting to think this could be a big issue. For me Roarke doesn't get elevated and we can see him next year with Wally & Redders on the LTI list. Prudden just has to go all together, for mine too. This presents a big test of medico's and list management working together to sort it out.

[FrediKanoute]

When I hurt my knee, they ran all of he tests and concluded no ACL tear - diagnosed as a lateral strain with cartilage damage.

25 years later, spent skiing, playing cricket, more footy (though never as good), tennis, 5 a side football etc, knee trouble meant that I had an MRI and low and behold no ACL - I had torn it a long time ago. They are sometimes not that easy to diagnose. I saw a top Melbourne surgeon and his advice was "you may have torn it, but you may not have. We could do an arthroscopy, but that's invasive and we don't do surgery unless we have to. Go out, play footy and do it properly". One of the reasons why my injury was hard to diagnose was the muscle bulk around the knee - it effectively compensated for the lack of an ACL.

The doc's know what they are doing. If they sent him back on they figured it either couldn't get much worse, or they didn't think it was torn. We don't know as all we have is anecdotal reports off the TV and a fan forum. When Redders returned to the field the game was still on - his being on the field and making it through could have been the difference as it would have allowed an extra rotation.

[Sedat]

One of the reasons why my injury was hard to diagnose was the muscle bulk around the knee - it effectively compensated for the lack of an ACL.
You must have killer VMO's Fredi :). Cyclists can do without the ACL because their primary motion is straight line, and their VMO muscles (the ball muscle in the quad just above the knee) are generally massive. I still think that 360 degree movement is significantly compromised in the event of an ACL tear, and further damage can be done to parts around the knee joint, most commonly cartilage.

[bulldogtragic]

I've got no idea, so I preface the thread already. Hoping Slim might know more.

In just over 12 months Libba, C. Smith, R. Smith, Bob and Prudden (now confirmed by Bevo) have all done ACLs. Is this a simple bad run or symptomatic of a bigger problem?

Since I asked this question in 2016, we can add a 2nd ACL to Libba, 2nd to Roarke, 2nd to Redders, 1st ACL to Jong & Morris in 4 years (10 in total). I ask the wiser posters again with updated higher numbers, is 10 ACLs (& ACL tear to Morris last year) just actual bad luck, or is the high number something that the club needs to see if there's aggravating factors?

Some of the answers from 2016 in this thread make for a few interesting things to think about, if we are able to reduce the occurrence and reoccurrence rates which seem to be higher than average.

[boydogs]

Mostly bad luck i would say but the risk of reoccurrence is definitely there

Issue is, if you say anyone that does their ACL is delisted because on raw numbers they're a good chance to do it again and leave you short, then you come across as uncaring and destroy the culture of the group which is to embrace the injured player and help them back on their feet

If the club shows loyalty to the injured player, they're more likely to get it from the stars they want to keep

[bornadog]

Since I asked this question in 2016, we can add a 2nd ACL to Libba, 2nd to Roarke, 2nd to Redders, 1st ACL to Jong & Morris in 4 years (10 in total). I ask the wiser posters again with updated higher numbers, is 10 ACLs (& ACL tear to Morris last year) just actual bad luck, or is the high number something that the club needs to see if there's aggravating factors?

Some of the answers from 2016 in this thread make for a few interesting things to think about, if we are able to reduce the occurrence and reoccurrence rates which seem to be higher than average.

I thought Slim answered this back in 2016. You can't blame this on Chris bell and his team

[josie]

Just logged in. This is shit to hear about on a truly horrible news day.

I trust Moz and club to make right decision. He is a living legend and deserves to finish on his own terms but the footy gods can be cruel.

Young and Roberts more likely to get more games. Let’s hope they are up to it. Who knows Bevo might try them forward too. Yet another year where we are short on talls. Makes Boyd comeback even more critical.

The pessimist in me sees quite a few drubbings, the optimist remembers 2016. Come on Bevo - weave another story of overcoming adversity...

[bulldogtragic]

I thought Slim answered this back in 2016. You can't blame this on Chris bell and his team

I'm not. If I aim at Chris Bell I do. :D

10 ACLs and 1 ACL tear in 4 years seems beyond a horrific coincidence. I was trained to never believe in coincidences, so I ask a genuine question to people with more insight on the issue. Maybe it is maybe it isn't. I don't know body mechanics like Slim (that was a at 6 incidences at the time), ground surfaces, training loads, etc. I know from someone around the AFLW that they're looking at a lot of different factors to reduce ACL occurrences. AFLW are being proactive. I'm just asking does the club now look at this as a matter of top priority, or is it a matter of bad luck and coincidence. It's a fair question I think.

[bornadog]

I would love to see the stats from all clubs. Certainly the AFLW players have had a lot of ACL's.

The thing is I don't believe anyone in the whole world have figured out how to stop players getting an ACL. The twisting and turning by players throughout a game doesn't help, that is for sure.

[bulldogtragic]

I would love to see the stats from all clubs. Certainly the AFLW players have had a lot of ACL's.

The thing is I don't believe anyone in the whole world have figured out how to stop players getting an ACL. The twisting and turning by players throughout a game doesn't help, that is for sure.

I don't want to say who was telling me about these things, but they are central in investigating and assessing injuries from the public stuff the AFEL release on the men's side, but intimately involved on the AFLW. The question I posed around this, and the answer, was bad luck accounts for a certain amount. But it can't be for all injuries. Some clubs have a very low rate of soft tissue and ACL injuries, you can't say they have good luck. Those clubs have good personnel. That was the general gist. Specifically on ACLs in AFLW everything is on the table to review. Body shape and female anatomy, hips and muscles down the upper leg, there's some small correlation that perhaps changes in hormone levels may be playing a role. There's no good luck/bad luck in this area, it's all gathering evidence with a view to reducing the occurrence and reoccurrence rates. It would be interesting if the club is hitting this issue, or just shrugging it's shoulders that this is a contact sport because nothing can be done. I personally have no idea on any of this, but I've a had a few long discussions on the topic and I'm sick of losing players at ACLs.

[bulldogtragic]

Mostly bad luck i would say but the risk of reoccurrence is definitely there

Issue is, if you say anyone that does their ACL is delisted because on raw numbers they're a good chance to do it again and leave you short, then you come across as uncaring and destroy the culture of the group which is to embrace the injured player and help them back on their feet

If the club shows loyalty to the injured player, they're more likely to get it from the stars they want to keep

Interesting thought and points. So the 10 are:

Prudden (1st)
Jong (1st)
Morris (1st)

Bob (2nd)
Redders (3rd)
Libba (1st)
Libba (2nd)
Roarke (1st)
Roarke (2nd)
Clay Smith (3rd)


Being cold hearted. The ones on their first, did little to nothing since (Morris just did his). On the multiple list, Bob didn't have a great year after in 2017, Roarke has done little, Redders did little, Libba & Smith had good 2016's and vital in the flag. With that exception, and 7 of 10 being in recurrence series, it does highlight immense risk that anyone doing their first favourites. And we did the right thing by the players, even though by and large, there wasn't much return on performance across them. But the investment in culture hopefully pays dividends.

[boydogs]

But the investment in culture hopefully pays dividends.

Yep. Easy to say Roarke Smith isn't much good anyway, Morris is old anyway, Jong is always injured more generally & fringe, and Libba is a miscreant - though perhaps the only one worth the risk

But then go and delist Dale Morris hours before the fill-in draft ends and see what effect on the group that has