Travis Cloke

[Twodogs]

Ought we? He could be a relatively cheap solution to our short term monster forward problem.

Does he come with too much baggage and is his best football behind him? Or could he give us 2 or 3 years (and maybe a flag or two) of good quality football while tutoring Boyd and Redpath in the finer arts of forward craft?

Depending on what he would cost us he could be very handy. Or am I living in the past and spots on the list nowadays are far to valuable to hand out on a ad hoc basis-we need to do more due diligence and strategic thought before handing them out?

[bulldogtragic]

He could be a Jarrad Waite type. He could enter our Talls of Shame equally. He's a confidence player devoid of confidence and can't seemingly kick straight for goal. I can't see the benefit outweighing the cost personally. Didn't Bob say we don't need Cloke recently?

[The Doctor]

no, never

let Norf have him

stay with Redders and Boyd and invest in them.

we can find KP forwards in the draft or better trade options elsewhere.

[Cyberdoggie]

He's an ageing forward who isn't at his best and can't play anywhere else on the ground.

He's a dinosaur in modern footy terms.

A tall forward needs to be an absolute gun or be able to switch roles with Ruck or somewhere else these days, it allows you to go in with one less tall, vital with interchange reductions and if there are any injuries.

[bornadog]

He has struggled to make an impact for the past three years. Last year he kicked 34 goals (17 games) and the previous year 39 (20 games). I think Redpath can do the same, ie 2 goals a game and will eventually kick more than that.

No thanks.

[Mofra]

His back is stuffed, he's a shadow of his former self.

SEN reported last night (rumour only) that he has already been told he is not going to be selected this weekend despite Collingwood's injuries. That says a lot to me.

He could only play a stay at home type forward role for which we have Redpath and Boyd on our list.

I'm in the firm "no" camp.

[Ozza]

I'm in the 'no' camp also.

He went through a period where he was a great player - probably from 2010-2013 - a genuine gun of the competition. Particularly 2011 where he kicked about 70 goals and had 4 contested marks per game. History will judge him harshly due to his goal kicking troubles and the way his form has fallen off the cliff in recent times.

I think he is damaged goods these days. The mental scars too great, and probably doesn't have the footy IQ to adapt his game now that his body can't do what it used. Sort of player that may have the odd good day, but his worst can really deflate the side.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Ought we? He could be a relatively cheap solution to our short term monster forward problem.

Does he come with too much baggage and is his best football behind him? Or could he give us 2 or 3 years (and maybe a flag or two) of good quality football while tutoring Boyd and Redpath in the finer arts of forward craft?

Depending on what he would cost us he could be very handy. Or am I living in the past and spots on the list nowadays are far to valuable to hand out on a ad hoc basis-we need to do more due diligence and strategic thought before handing them out?

Oh no don't no really. Travis Cloke in the red white and blue, kicking goals? Oh no don't do that no way I couldn't cope. The Cloke family would come to our premiership reunions and they're big and have moustaches. NO really please don't. He could play CHF for us and take a good defender but it would be yucky. He might really perform for us out of that rarefied Collingwood atmosphere with Beveridge as his guide but no don't even think about it. It's a dogshit thought.

[Axe Man]

Even if Cloke's body and mind were right (and I don't think either are), I still don't think he's what we need. We already have 2 pretty big forwards in Boyd and Redpath and/or a resting ruckman in the forward line. If we were to add another tall forward they need to be a mobile hard running type.

[Sedat]

Not for us but I'm not writing him off completely as a spent force at this level. He'd be a good fit for the Hawks actually, with Roughy out for at least the next 12 months and O'Brien and Sicily not suited to take the gorilla defenders.

[Bulldog4life]

Ought we? He could be a relatively cheap solution to our short term monster forward problem.

Does he come with too much baggage and is his best football behind him? Or could he give us 2 or 3 years (and maybe a flag or two) of good quality football while tutoring Boyd and Redpath in the finer arts of forward craft?

Depending on what he would cost us he could be very handy. Or am I living in the past and spots on the list nowadays are far to valuable to hand out on a ad hoc basis-we need to do more due diligence and strategic thought before handing them out?

I was thinking there is a better chance of Tom and Jack tutoring Cloke.;) It is a no from me.

[Twodogs]

So that's a maybe then?

[Bulldog Joe]

Sorry Twodogs, but is an emphatic NO from me.

As others have said, he is passed it.

Redpath is already better in the following ways

1. Mobility and it is not Jack's greatest strength.
2. Adaptability - Jack can take a turn in the ruck and be competitive. Jack could also go back and play as a KPD if it became necessary in a game.
3. Tackling - Jack brings real intent with his aggression.
4. Kicking - Jack is capable in front of goals and generally a reliable shot.
5. Personality - Jack is not a Cloke.

[Ghost Dog]

Sorry Twodogs, but is an emphatic NO from me.

As others have said, he is passed it.

Redpath is already better in the following ways

1. Mobility and it is not Jack's greatest strength.
2. Adaptability - Jack can take a turn in the ruck and be competitive. Jack could also go back and play as a KPD if it became necessary in a game.
3. Tackling - Jack brings real intent with his aggression.
4. Kicking - Jack is capable in front of goals and generally a reliable shot.
5. Personality - Jack is not a Cloke.

I hope you are not going to knock his mullet-wearing dad being his agent. That's below the belt.:D

[ratsmac]

A definite no from me.

I think he's definitely passed it. I can't even remember the last decent game he has played. It's not all about goals with him either, he's not even getting the ball. He's been making Liam Jones look like Carey with his numbers.

Can you imagine we finally make it to grand final day, the siren goes and we are 2 points down and Cloke is having a shot after the siren. I wouldn't live to know the result.

Anyway all the Cloke memes wouldn't be as funny!

[Sedat]

I think he's definitely passed it. I can't even remember the last decent game he has played. It's not all about goals with him either, he's not even getting the ball. He's been making Liam Jones look like Carey with his numbers.

If Cloke changed his body shape and became leaner and more mobile (he already has a good tank), he would still cut it at this level. His body shape is all wrong for the modern game.

Riewoldt did this about 3-4 years ago when he looked shot and he is still close to career-best form in 2016.

[Mofra]

Riewoldt did this about 3-4 years ago when he looked shot and he is still close to career-best form in 2016.
Riewoldt was already one of the best runners in the competition though - if anything the changes to rules have helped him more and more as the interchange caps became tighter.

[Sedat]

Riewoldt was already one of the best runners in the competition though - if anything the changes to rules have helped him more and more as the interchange caps became tighter.
Captain Selfie is off the scale when it comes to elite aerobic running, but I believe Cloke is quite a strong runner as well. He's just too big and bulky at the moment.

Not for us but I can definitely see 1-2 clubs benefitting from a Cloke in their forward set-up.

[bornadog]

Pretty sure he is playing this week.

[Twodogs]

If he doesn't he has a problem. He's got problems already because he's playing in the twos but his problems come into sharper focus if he misses out this week.

[Remi Moses]

Just looking at him today he is overweight for the modern forward .

[bornadog]

With Jack Redpath out for a year, is Travis Cloke now an option?

Jake Niall thinks so- story here (http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/jack-redpath-injury-could-open-door-for-travis-cloke-or-other-forwards-to-join-dogs-writes-jake-niall/news-story/79ec9c4ed742642ba96e8d7a08fbece1)

[bulldogtragic]

The Hurley thread has morphed into this topic. So, drums beating us, he's got one year left on contract at Collingwood on $500,000. Discuss.

[comrade]

Would prefer someone like Xavier Richards. Out of contract I believe.

[1eyedog]

Playing wise he's probably got more to offer than Redpath and we were intent on resigning him so I think it's worth considering. Can we play Cloke and Boyd forward and Camhead? Cloke still cuts an imposing figure on the field and will demand attention. Plus you never know what Bevo could make of him [FB?] Not sure why Buckely never sent him back when he was struggling forward.

Wouldn't pass Macca's dickhead test no doubt and I'm gun shy about bringing in big names with a reputation post - Aker.

From what I heard on Friday night he has requested a trade to us. It was not us who were initially looking at him.

[Throughandthrough]

one year contract which Collingwood pays all of. That would be ok.

[Rocco Jones]

The starts seem to be aligning to make the price right.

[chef]

I'd take him in he's not going to cost much

[Go_Dogs]

At the right price, if his body's right and he's motivated, then yes - I'd be having a very close look.

[GVGjr]

Wouldn't pass Macca's dickhead test no doubt and I'm gun shy about bringing in big names with a reputation post - Aker.

From what I heard on Friday night he has requested a trade to us. It was not us who were initially looking at him.

I don't think Cloke is too bad in the trusty old DH test but he might bring some baggage. I don't think it's a huge concern.

With Crameri coming back I don't think our forward line is a problem that requires a short term fix.
Remember last year we had Stringer and Dickson kicking over 50 goals each and Crameri something like 2 goals per game.

If Tom Boyd gets to the level we want next year I'd be looking at a more versatile player than Cloke.

To me if we select Cloke and want to play him then we don't need both Campbell and Roughead in the ruck

[GVGjr]

At the right price, if his body's right and he's motivated, then yes - I'd be having a very close look.

Do we really need him though? How does a Bulldogs forward line look with him?

[Twodogs]

Do we really need him though? How does a Bulldogs forward line look with him?

I don't think he fits in with the versatility the coach demands. What else does he do but play forward?

[hujsh]

I'd rather get the best state league player possible on the rookie list.

The other thing to consider with Cloke is we're struggling to find the 4 delistees/trades to make room for 3 draft picks/Hurley.

Who do we want to delist for a year of Cloke?

[bulldogtragic]

Barrett just said on the footy show that the dogs have discussed recruiting him in a general sense. Collingwood would pay $250,000 of his $500,000 next year to move him on.

[lemmon]

The Pies would rather play Jesse White ahead of him, I reckon he's cooked. Big no for me

[LostDoggy]

Barrett just said on the footy show that the dogs have discussed recruiting him in a general sense. Collingwood would pay $250,000 of his $500,000 next year to move him on.

With Redpath (essentially) out for the year, I don't think it would be responsible list management for us to go into such an important year with Boyd as our sole key forward, when we have so much depth elsewhere.

If we identify an experienced, AFL quality key forward who won't cost the earth, Cloke will be near the top of the list.

If he only costs us $250,000, and Collingwood would trade him for Jong (who they are hot for and just starred against them) and draft picks (say swap 2nd and/or 3rd round picks), I think we'd be sorely tempted.

[bulldogtragic]

With the exception of maybe 5 years of Travis, Collingwood being selected by the 3 Cloke boys (over Richmond) hasn't returned a great deal for them, certainly not the expectations they had for them. The best Cloke moment was Satanta giving Cameron a decking and a kick up the coight and that was at Carlton.

[Twodogs]

The Pies would rather play Jesse White ahead of him, I reckon he's cooked. Big no for me

Jesse White is the worst league footballer I have ever seen and I saw every game we played from 1978-1982 and we had some howlers play for us over that period. I was ashamed when White took a mark and kicked a goal on Friday night.

[ledge]

Wouldn't give them Jong just for Cloke we would want more

[ledge]

Jesse White is the worst league footballer I have ever seen and I saw every game we played from 1978-1982 and we had some howlers play for us over that period. I was ashamed when White took a mark and kicked a goal on Friday night.

I agree he is terrible , slow and only gets the ball if it's pin pointed at him.

[bulldogtragic]

With Redpath (essentially) out for the year, I don't think it would be responsible list management for us to go into such an important year with Boyd as our sole key forward, when we have so much depth elsewhere.

If we identify an experienced, AFL quality key forward who won't cost the earth, Cloke will be near the top of the list.

If he only costs us $250,000, and Collingwood would trade him for Jong (who they are hot for and just starred against them) and draft picks (say swap 2nd and/or 3rd round picks), I think we'd be sorely tempted.

The issue facing Collingwood is they need to find draft points for possible two father/sons and they only have pick 30 or so. If it's a Jong trade then they might have to put up another player. Witts name has been thrown around as trade bait or bringing in Geelong for Vardy if we are as interested as media is making out.

[bulldogtragic]

Jesse White is the worst league footballer I have ever seen and I saw every game we played from 1978-1982 and we had some howlers play for us over that period. I was ashamed when White took a mark and kicked a goal on Friday night.

Ben Harrison? :D

[Go_Dogs]

Do we really need him though? How does a Bulldogs forward line look with him?

If we have everyone fit and firing he may be surplus to our needs, however it's a long season and players may get injured and/or go through prolonged form slumps. It also depends on the type of role we see him playing.

For me, best case scenario is he gets a bit fitter, moves a bit better and leads at the ball carrier, doing his best work from 40m out to the wings. Worst case, he doesn't play much AFL but provides coverage and is a good lead up target for our young VFL blokes to learn to kick at.

If the numbers being touted are correct, $250k doesn't seem like an unreasonable insurance policy.

[anfo27]

Not against getting Cloke. If Bevo thinks he will add something to the team then thats good enough for me.

[bulldogtragic]

Bevo goes way back with Cloke doesn't he, as an assistant coach at Collingwood a few years back. I imagine he'd know him and his game pretty well to judge better than most if he's worth getting.

[GVGjr]

Ben Harrison? :D
Way to load a gun

[bulldogtragic]

Way to load a gun

I've heard for years Harrison was the worst, now it's Jesse White. I'd agree taking out the 2 months of decent footy before being traded.

[GVGjr]

If we have everyone fit and firing he may be surplus to our needs, however it's a long season and players may get injured and/or go through prolonged form slumps. It also depends on the type of role we see him playing.

For me, best case scenario is he gets a bit fitter, moves a bit better and leads at the ball carrier, doing his best work from 40m out to the wings. Worst case, he doesn't play much AFL but provides coverage and is a good lead up target for our young VFL blokes to learn to kick at.

If the numbers being touted are correct, $250k doesn't seem like an unreasonable insurance policy.

This is where I think people misjudged things. Recruiting a high profile player withour actually having a spot for him a spot for him will just be a problem.
Perhaps if we think a number of players will be late starters to the season after end of season operations there might be a spot for him but on paper its very questionable that we need him.

[GVGjr]

I've heard for years Harrison was the worst, now it's Jesse White. I'd agree taking out the 2 months of decent footy before being traded.

All I'm saying is don't complain if the thread gets taken off track.

[comrade]

Cloke could be Bevo's Brian Lake masterstroke move, or could be a bust. I'd prefer to focus elsewhere.

[Go_Dogs]

This is where I think people misjudged things. Recruiting a high profile player withour actually having a spot for him a spot for him will just be a problem.
Perhaps if we think a number of players will be late starters to the season after end of season operations there might be a spot for him but on paper its very questionable that we need him.

I'm looking at it slightly differently, as I think we need a lead up forward.

Crameri can play that role, Redpath can (but will be out for most of the season) and other than that we don't really have many players who appear to do it well.

I guess we will learn more over the next 2 months.

[GVGjr]

I've quoted Rocco from the Michael Hurley thread because I think it's best answered here


For mine it isn't about direct goals but the ability to create a contest. We play a contested style of footy, hammer it in 50 and then fight our way to a goal. Cloke is still quality in a contest.

Up forward, we go with....
- Cloke as big KP forward creating a contest
- Tom Boyd as 2nd ruck/forward
- Crameri and Stringer as the medium types. Crameri will make it easier for everyone
- Dickson as the small forward. His life will be easier with 2 more marking options. McLean there too
- Guys like Bonts and Dahl rotating there

Stringer was a KP player last season and kicked over 50 goals. You have now rated him as a mid sized forward because you might see a spot for Cloke. To me Stringer is big enough and strong enough to be regarded a key forward who can play in other positions as required.
Dickson was a mid sized forward last year who also kicked 50 goals and is now being re-rated as a small forward to squeeze Cloke in
Boyd is a key forward that will alternate in the ruck much like Tippett does for the Swans
Crameri is a good running mid sized forward who can play tall if required and cause match-up problems. He kicked over 30 goals last season.
McLean, Dahlhaus and Bontempelli and other mids like Smith etc will all spend time up forward. Redpath was the filler for a couple of positions and Roughead and Campbell alternating there as ruck match-ups call for.

To me this seems a very good forward line with plenty of options but if I'm completely honest it could only benefit more by adding a versatile tall forward more than a one position player like Cloke.

I'd also ask if you agree that bringing in Cloke means we can't play both Roughead and Campbell in the same side as him and Boyd?

Don't get me wrong, if were were very confident that he could play and be productive in the forward line I'm not too concerned but I haven't read anything yet that convinces me we really need him. The fact that his salary might be subsidized by Collinwood doesn't swing it for me either.

If he is to come in then we really need to make some tough calls on some players.

[Rocket Science]

Surely not. Recruiting someone of Cloke's latter day ilk smacks of something we'd have done 5, 10, 20 years ago. And that always went well...

Furthermore, suggest we're much better placed by recruiting a forward who can graft and create. Cloke needs spoon-feeding by a precise, efficient midfield.

Sound like us?

[bulldogtragic]

I've quoted Rocco from the Michael Hurley thread because I think it's best answered here



Stringer was a KP player last season and kicked over 50 goals. You have now rated him as a mid sized forward because the can see a spot for Cloke. To me Stringer is big enough and strong enough to be regarded a key forward who can play in other positions as required.
Dickson was a mid sized forward last year who also kicked 50 goals and is now being re-rated as a small forward to squeeze Cloke in
Boyd is a key forward that will alternate in the ruck much like Tippett does for the Swans
Crameri is a good running mid sized forward who can play tall if required and cause match-up problems. He kicked over 30 goals last season.
McLean, Dahlhaus and Bontempelli and other mids like Smith etc will all spend time up forward. Redpath was the filler for a couple of positions and Roughead and Campbell alternating there as ruck match-ups call for.

To me this seems a very good forward line with plenty of options but if I'm completely honest it could only benefit more by adding a versatile tall forward more than a one position player like Cloke.

I'd also ask if you agree that bringing in Cloke means we can't play both Roughead and Campbell in the same side as him and Boyd?

Don't get me wrong, if were were very confident that he could play and be productive in the forward line I'm not too concerned but I haven't read anything yet that convinces me we really need him. The fact that his salary might be subsidized by Collinwood doesn't swing it for me either.

If he is to come in then we really need to make some tough calls on some players.

Great post, and great answers. Which then pose a lot of questions. What has he shown at AFL & VFL this year to suggest he will significantly improve our forward line is the question I come back to. I think his numbers at both levels are pretty similar to Liam Jones, and we wouldn't touch him if Carlton gave him for free. Would he be much different than Aaron Black? GVGjr responded to a post last week of mine and I've been thinking that ideally the second tall forward should be able to ruck. Tom Boyd is a blue chip KPF and if we need a second either Camhead play together leaving Boyd at FF or we look to someone like a David Hale (Hawthorn premiership vintage) or Leigh Brown (Collingwood premiership vintage) second ruck, second forward bits & pieces player. The very good ones won't be coming our way (Rory Lobb to WA is gaining traction) then we have to look at maybe a Ty Vickery and hope that in a better team with a defined role he does it very well and allows other structural gains that help improve the side as a benefit. I'm fairly of the view we need another KPF, and Bevo knows Cloke well enough to give me confidence if he wants him, but I'm still not sold that Cloke is necessarily our guy. I'm open to listening to the arguments for and against, but I need to be persuaded into the for camp.

[1eyedog]

So if we don't need a Cloke we didn't necessarily need to renew Redpath's contract then?

I'm ok with Cloke for a year on 250k and the fact that Redpath is out all of next year heats up the topic. That price point and what we give up seem low risk to at least establish whether he can make a contribution.

[GVGjr]

So if we don't need a Cloke we didn't necessarily need to renew Redpath's contract then?

I'm ok with Cloke for a year on 250k and the fact that Redpath is out all of next year heats up the topic. That price point and what we give up seem low risk to at least establish whether he can make a contribution.

I don't think that is the right way to look at it. Cloke has been a marquee player for Collingwood and is on the decline in form and on the outer with selection at his club. Redpath has been on one year contracts because he knows he's on the list to fill in as needed and hopefully improve to a point where he becomes a best 22 player.

Whats the incentive for Cloke to come to us if essentially he is just replacing Redpath and behind a couple of players in the selection process? Isn't that the same position as he already has? I don't think you pick a name player like Cloke as insurance if injuries occur

I'd also ask what is the future for both the combo of Roughead and Campbell if Cloke comes into the senior side? Can we really play Roughead and Campbell rotating up forward if Boyd and Cloke are there?

Also the asking price being speculated is a 2nd or 3rd round pick for his services. I don't think we currently have a 3rd round pick this year and a 2nd round pick seems overs to me.

I think many people of okay with the concept of bringing in a player like Cloke but to me that is a very small part of the consideration process.

[bornadog]

Stringer is not a KPP, please don't mention him as one. He has previously been spoken about as being a Forward with stints as a mid, never have heard he is a KPP.

I would prefer a Stanley type who is big and mobile and can ruck and go forward with Boyd our KPF and not rucking. So Cloke is a big no. The game has gone past him.

[Templeton31]

The cost of Cloke is not the $. Its decreased playing time for Toyd, decreased experience for Toyd being KPP and decreased time of our young forward line gelling together.

One of the things we are being told at the moment (and it makes sense) is that our forward line is young and not played together much and needs to gel. I don't think putting Cloke in helps. He plays the same game as Big Tom except Big Tom is able to play ruck and Big Tom needs experience.

A no for me unless Bevo wants him in which case #InBevoWeTrust.

[hujsh]

Yeah if Cloke could ruck it might be woth considering but since he can't It's a firm no for me.

[Bulldog4life]

I would prefer Vickery than Cloke. He can ruck as well and is a free Agent so won't cost us a draft pick.

[lemmon]

I would prefer Vickery than Cloke. He can ruck as well and is a free Agent so won't cost us a draft pick.

Would cost 400k rather than 200k though

[bulldogtragic]

Would cost 400k rather than 200k though

If Carlton paid half Liam Jones, he would cost $160,000 or so. There's a reason they're cheap, they've played half a year in the VFL, can't kick straight and have had similar 2016's.

Or, if those Stevens rumours are right, move some of his allocated re-mewing salary (& trade value) towards securing both Hurley & Vickery.

[Templeton31]

Vickery is a complete spud. Not to be touched with a barge pole.

[Bulldog4life]

Vickery is a complete spud. Not to be touched with a barge pole.

They said that about Stanley and Leigh Brown and many others.

[bulldogtragic]

Vickery is a complete spud. Not to be touched with a barge pole.

Same was said about similar players in 2008 & 2010. Leigh Brown delistee and drafted at pick 73 and David Hale traded for pick 53. Grand finals &/or premierships within two years. Neither superstars, but important players who had a specific role and played it well. They also allowed for other structural gains in their sides up forward and across the rucking/utility areas. Not every player needs to be thoroughbred, not every premiership team has 22 guns. What is needed is guys who can play a specific role and make the overall team better like Boyd staying at FF, having a second genuine tall target, a decent mobile second ruckman, depth and developing in a better culture, environment and team. I dismissed the idea of Vickery originally too, but now I'm coming around to it as a free agent.

[1eyedog]

I don't think that is the right way to look at it. Cloke has been a marquee player for Collingwood and is on the decline in form and on the outer with selection at his club. Redpath has been on one year contracts because he knows he's on the list to fill in as needed and hopefully improve to a point where he becomes a best 22 player.

Whats the incentive for Cloke to come to us if essentially he is just replacing Redpath and behind a couple of players in the selection process? Isn't that the same position as he already has? I don't think you pick a name player like Cloke as insurance if injuries occur

I'd also ask what is the future for both the combo of Roughead and Campbell if Cloke comes into the senior side? Can we really play Roughead and Campbell rotating up forward if Boyd and Cloke are there?

Also the asking price being speculated is a 2nd or 3rd round pick for his services. I don't think we currently have a 3rd round pick this year and a 2nd round pick seems overs to me.

I think many people of okay with the concept of bringing in a player like Cloke but to me that is a very small part of the consideration process.

I was purely discussing Cloke in a forward context because that was the line of argument in terms of whether we get him or not. I wouldn't necessarily play Cloke forward but that's another matter. The point still stands re. Redpath. When we were playing Camhead and Redpath Bevo was saying over and over that Boyd will come into the side, and that we want to go tall at some stage, so yes it's reasonable to suggest that Cloke, Boyd and Camhead can all play in the same team.

I don't like the idea of a second round pick for Cloke, Collingwood would be salivating over that we would need to look at a fringe player and the fact that we would save Collingwood 250k by taking him of their hands. To help us out I'd also suggest that JMac get in Cloke's ear about wanting out to the Dogs at all cost and for us to hold our ground on the second rounder is off the table argument.

My feeling is the Pies want out of the deal and don't particularly want the baggage of their so called star forward languishing in the twos for 500 k for all of next year.

[Remi Moses]

I'm going to get a sore bum from sitting on the fence about this.
I'm not giving up a second rounder for Cloke though, but I just don't know.
Question on whether Tom Boyd is ready for the number one forward role, and Jake basically plays more a crumbling forward than a power one .Added in the mix is Crameri who is more your connect forward, and then you add in the absence of Redpath .
Quite the conundrum

[GVGjr]

Stringer is not a KPP, please don't mention him as one. He has previously been spoken about as being a Forward with stints as a mid, never have heard he is a KPP.

I would prefer a Stanley type who is big and mobile and can ruck and go forward with Boyd our KPF and not rucking. So Cloke is a big no. The game has gone past him.

I certainly challenge that statement. He kicked over 50 goals last season as the primary target up forward with Dickson and Crameri as the mid sized players and a bit from Tom Boyd and Campbell.

[hujsh]

I certainly challenge that statement. He kicked over 50 goals last season as the primary target up forward with Dickson and Crameri as the mid sized players and a bit from Tom Boyd and Campbell.

By that logic Brad Johnson was a KPP

One of Boyd or Redpath was in the team as the big forward with him all last year

No way we give up anything for Cloke. We're doing them a favor taking him off their hands and clearing some of their cap space,

[Remi Moses]

Brad Johnson was our primary target up forward for quite a while, yet wouldn't consider him a power forward .
Jake kicks a lot of goals at ground level

[GVGjr]

By that logic Brad Johnson was a KPP

One of Boyd or Redpath was in the team as the big forward with him all last year

That's your opinion not mine.

[MrMahatma]

I'm on the fence but leaning toward yes. Reckon he still has good footy in him.

[hujsh]

That's your opinion not mine.

It's not an opinion. I'm saying that by the criteria you used to argue Stringer played or can play as a KPP (primary target who kicked a large number of goals) Brad Johnson would be considered an even better KPP. Same with Mark Williams and Russel Robertson

Therefore I think it's flawed reasoning.

[Templeton31]

Same was said about similar players in 2008 & 2010. Leigh Brown delistee and drafted at pick 73 and David Hale traded for pick 53. Grand finals &/or premierships within two years. Neither superstars, but important players who had a specific role and played it well. They also allowed for other structural gains in their sides up forward and across the rucking/utility areas. Not every player needs to be thoroughbred, not every premiership team has 22 guns. What is needed is guys who can play a specific role and make the overall team better like Boyd staying at FF, having a second genuine tall target, a decent mobile second ruckman, depth and developing in a better culture, environment and team. I dismissed the idea of Vickery originally too, but now I'm coming around to it as a free agent.

Yes and they said it about Jesse White and Liam Jones and Chris Dawes and we can go through other examples where it was right. I said it about Jesse White somewhere on WOOF! I'm still dismissing the idea of Vickery. He's a spud.

But I get your point. Hale, etc were diamonds in the rough and we need to find guys like that. I just don't think Vickery is one of them.

[LostDoggy]

I certainly challenge that statement. He kicked over 50 goals last season as the primary target up forward with Dickson and Crameri as the mid sized players and a bit from Tom Boyd and Campbell.

That's true, but the games where they played without TBoyd or Redpath in 2015 were not successful. Stringer and Crameri are very good forwards, but I think history has shown that they don't perform best as the prime spearhead. I am very much of the opinion that going into next year with Boyd as the only genuine big key forward leaves us vulnerable and represents an unbalanced list.

[Eastdog]

Will TC goalkicking improve in a new environment? Yeah it is an interesting one I'm more not as convinced that he will do much more. We really just need to hit up our forwards better than do we as getting it in there is not the problem.

[Ghost Dog]

Cloke all depends on the price. Any club would have him, but it's the price that puts the yay or nay on it.
I seem to recall his father is his agent. Good luck getting any objectivity there.

[Eastdog]

Cloke all depends on the price. Any club would have him, but it's the price that puts the yay or nay on it.
I seem to recall his father is his agent. Good luck getting any objectivity there.

If we were going to do a trade what would he be worth?

Lin Jong I want to stay.

[Ghost Dog]

If we were going to do a trade what would he be worth?

Lin Jong I want to stay.

Don't know, but whatever they want it will be too much. These big clubs have a sense of entitlement. That's why I respect the Swans. They are pragmatic and you can trade with them. At least that is my perception. Am I wrong?

[Eastdog]

Don't know, but whatever they want it will be too much. These big clubs have a sense of entitlement. That's why I respect the Swans. They are pragmatic and you can trade with them. At least that is my perception. Am I wrong?

But the Swans do get propped up more by the AFL.

[GVGjr]

It's not an opinion. I'm saying that by the criteria you used to argue Stringer played or can play as a KPP (primary target who kicked a large number of goals) Brad Johnson would be considered an even better KPP. Same with Mark Williams and Russel Robertson

Therefore I think it's flawed reasoning.

In your reasoning Stephen Milne was a key forward. I'm not 100% sure why you are trying to twist it around but I think I do know why.

Just to be clear I'm saying that we can't rule out Stringer ever being regarded as a key forward as BAD was indicating. He's more than capable of it.

[Remi Moses]

I think it's what your perception of a key power forward is .
For me it's when a chaos ball goes deep in the forward 50 the forward can take a contested Mark .

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Yeah if Cloke could ruck it might be woth considering but since he can't It's a firm no for me.

This is what decides it for me too.

PROS:
- Cloke provides us with a big leading marking target, which we sorely lack. It's the reason Redpath was important for us and half of why we look so poor forward of centre currently. Crameri returning helps but it's not enough. I have a big question mark over Dickson being best 22 next year and although Stringer was a weapon last season, he's really struggled for the bulk of 2016. I think Jake needs to spend a bit more time in the midfield - getting Cloke allows this to happen.

- Boyd needs assistance. Again - Crameri returning helps, but we are desperate for another key forward who leads. Boyd is the big FF but we severely lack a mobile CHF. Is Cloke the answer to this? Not sure, gut says no, but he may be the best available.

- Cloke does open up space behind him, which is where the likes of Stringer, Crameri, McLean and even Bonti can excel. Even if he's not necessarily at peak form, Cloke still commands a top defender which obviously lessens the burden on all our forwards. Creating space is huge and Trav can do this.

CONS:
- Is he capable of still playing good footy? I've watched him a number of times live this year and he has genuinely struggled. His movement doesn't look great, which was his strength a few years ago. He would need to drop about 5kgs to change his body shape, returning to the CHF who goes on long searching leads.

- He can't ruck. I don't like Boyd as the second ruck. Ultimately, I'm not sure if this makes it worthwhile. We need to find a way to keep Boyd at FF and Cloke doesn't help us achieve this.

- If Cloke doesn't play well, the pressure will come in buckets. We can hardly drop him to the VFL after 6 weeks - or if we do, the heat will be huge and we'll be somewhat conceding he's cooked. It's added pressure and spotlight that could be pretty unsettling.

Obviously there are other considerations, such as what we pay him and what we cough up to Collingwood. That's another matter. In terms of the points above, I don't think I can favour to us going after him purely because he cannot ruck and I am not convinced he's got quality footy in him.

[bulldogtragic]

Thanks ain't enough. Great post and analysis.

[GVGjr]

- He can't ruck. I don't like Boyd as the second ruck. Ultimately, I'm not sure if this makes it worthwhile. We need to find a way to keep Boyd at FF and Cloke doesn't help us achieve this.

Obviously there are other considerations, such as what we pay him and what we cough up to Collingwood. That's another matter. In terms of the points above, I don't think I can favour to us going after him purely because he cannot ruck and I am not convinced he's got quality footy in him.

This is the main point for me. If Cloke plays alongside of Tom Boyd then Boyd is the 2nd ruck. We can't have Roughead, Campbell, Boyd and Cloke in the same team I wouldn't have thought.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

This is the main point for me. If Cloke plays alongside of Tom Boyd then Boyd is the 2nd ruck. We can't have Roughead, Campbell, Boyd and Cloke in the same team I wouldn't have thought.

Nope.

What we need is a player like Stanley - by no means a world beater, but somebody who is very mobile, solid in the air and competitive enough at ground level.

Boyd is our big lumbering key forward, we can't add another.

[Twodogs]

This is the main point for me. If Cloke plays alongside of Tom Boyd then Boyd is the 2nd ruck. We can't have Roughead, Campbell, Boyd and Cloke in the same team I wouldn't have thought.


One or more of those are usually injured and if they all play the whole season then the competition for spots should be a good thing. Whoever isn't playing his role in the team the best plays at Footscray.

I'm thinking back to earlier in the season when Boyd was mostly playing out of the goalsquare. We straitened up our game and looked a lot better, if the coaches are determined to use Boyd as a ruck/forward-which I'm not totally against but I'd like him to really learn his forward craft properly first-then I'd like to see us with a target up forward for our mids to kick too.

Having a player like Cloke would take defenders with him on leads to making space behind him for Stringer to work into.

The main argument against iphim is he only plays one position and that doesn't meet Bevo's versatility mantra.

But I'm not totally against it.

It would also force us to have a hard think about other players futures too to fit him in.. It's time we did that too.

[lemmon]

If the choice was between Cloke or Mitch Clark who would you choose? For me it's Clark. Can play second ruck to release Boyd and clunk them himself.

Surely he wouldnt be worth much now

[LostDoggy]

Nope.

What we need is a player like Stanley - by no means a world beater, but somebody who is very mobile, solid in the air and competitive enough at ground level.

Boyd is our big lumbering key forward, we can't add another.

Why not? Most lists have 2-4 big key forwards. I'd have thought 2 is bare minimum, rather than too many.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Why not? Most lists have 2-4 big key forwards. I'd have thought 2 is bare minimum, rather than too many.

You can only play one big lumbering key forward IMO. The other key forward(s) need to be mobile.

Geelong have Hawkins but their other options include Stanley (ruck/flexible/very mobile), Kersten (more mid sized ala Crameri), Smith (first ruck/forward and mobile).

Norf have Petrie and their other options include Waite (mobile) and Brown (ruck/flexible/mobile).

GWS have Patton and their other options include Cameron (mobile) and Lobb (ruck/flexible/mobile).

Adelaide have Walker and their other options include Jenkins (ruck/flexible/mobile) and Lynch (ala Crameri).

At his best, Cloke would suit us but I'd describe him more as a lumbering tall and similar to Boyd rather than a flexible/mobile player. If you want Boyd to play second ruck/forward, it may work - but I don't like playing Boyd as second ruck for more than an occasional pinch hit.

[hujsh]

In your reasoning Stephen Milne was a key forward. I'm not 100% sure why you are trying to twist it around but I think I do know why.

Just to be clear I'm saying that we can't rule out Stringer ever being regarded as a key forward as BAD was indicating. He's more than capable of it.

Well actually I was using your reasoning (or at minimum my interpretation of it). My point is that none of those players were KPPs (and Milne was never the Saints primary target so he doesn't really work as an example).

Maybe Stringer could play as a key position forward. I'm just going to need a better reason to believe it can happen aside from him being the focal point at times last year.


I'm not 100% sure why you are trying to twist it around but I think I do know why.


I can just be pedantic when it comes to providing good reasons for an argument. No twisting necessary. Though I'd be interested to know what you think I'm trying to do.:confused:

[hujsh]

Nope.

What we need is a player like Stanley - by no means a world beater, but somebody who is very mobile, solid in the air and competitive enough at ground level.

Boyd is our big lumbering key forward, we can't add another.

I was thinking Stanley would be perfect for us. Who's around that could fit that mould for us though?

[bulldogtragic]

I was thinking Stanley would be perfect for us. Who's around that could fit that mould for us though?

Vardy if he could stay fit, Vickery.

[1eyedog]

This is the main point for me. If Cloke plays alongside of Tom Boyd then Boyd is the 2nd ruck. We can't have Roughead, Campbell, Boyd and Cloke in the same team I wouldn't have thought.

Hang on, but at one point we were going to have Campbell, Roughead, Boyd and Redpath in the same team.

Cloke has got a big tank and has a far greater range than many seem to think.

He can certainly go longer and further than Redpath.

To me Buckley does not seem to be getting the best out of a few players there.

[chef]

Yep. If we fit Roughie, Campbell, Boyd and Redpath in the team theres no reason Cloke can't play instead of Big Red.

[Mofra]

Barrett just said on the footy show that the dogs have discussed recruiting him in a general sense. Collingwood would pay $250,000 of his $500,000 next year to move him on.
I was formerly in the no camp, but this forces a re-think.

He'd demand a big defender and can still run (although his agility is shot and he's not the player he was).
AFL average salary is ~$300k. At $250k pa he's being paid as a role player and that's all he'd need to be.

[Topdog]

Cloke is useless 1 on 1 in the fwd line. He needs to be running up and being the outlet for defenders. Not sure he has the tank anymore.

[Mofra]

If the choice was between Cloke or Mitch Clark who would you choose? For me it's Clark. Can play second ruck to release Boyd and clunk them himself.
Mitch Clark fails the DH test by a fair margin and would cost more than Cloke.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I don't care how much he can run, and how many marks he can clunk... He can't be relied upon to kick a goal from 15 out directly in front for goodness sake. We already have issues in front of goals..Cloke makes that worse.

I can see it now.. we get to a prelim...are 5 points down...Cloke clunks one in front, 15 metres out...siren goes.. Cloke goes back and sprays it.....

[1eyedog]

I don't care how much he can run, and how many marks he can clunk... He can't be relied upon to kick a goal from 15 out directly in front for goodness sake. We already have issues in front of goals..Cloke makes that worse.

I can see it now.. we get to a prelim...are 5 points down...Cloke clunks one in front, 15 metres out...siren goes.. Cloke goes back and sprays it.....

Play him as a high CHF in the Riewoldt role. His kicking from 50-55 is elite.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Play him as a high CHF in the Riewoldt role. His kicking from 50-55 is elite.
Why isn't Collingwood doing this?

[Bulldog4life]

Why isn't Collingwood doing this?

Some players play better under different coaches too.

[whythelongface]

I quite like the idea of recruiting Travis Cloke - probably differs from my original thoughts, however with Big Red's injury and Crameri having 12 months off (may take awhile for him to regain match fitness), Cloke fills a gap and may be required to assist in an area whereby we are short of stock. He also is a player that may thrive under a new coach.

we know his best is pretty good. The big question is whether he can get to that level again. Think it is a risk worth taking (if it doesn't cost us too much).

[LostDoggy]

The issue facing Collingwood is they need to find draft points for possible two father/sons and they only have pick 30 or so. If it's a Jong trade then they might have to put up another player. Witts name has been thrown around as trade bait or bringing in Geelong for Vardy if we are as interested as media is making out.

Great point. What about something like Cloke and Witts for Jong and a couple of our low (50+) draft picks which they can bundle up. Gives us a bit of list depth where we look thinnest.

[1eyedog]

Why isn't Collingwood doing this?

They move the ball way differently to us. We force the ball forward anyway we can but usually by hand to forward of centre and they short kick to an area where they can hit up Moore and to a far lesser extent White. Although I must say Darcy covers serious ground and doubles back from CHF to create a target deep. Fine player.

We'll use Crameri high again next year of course but I don't mind having a few targets out of half back.

Ultimately they have Darcy Moore who is a target across half forward otherwise Cloke would be playing. We don't have Darcy Moore which is why we are looking at Cloke.

[The Pie Man]

Maybe this is the wrong thread for this question, but it's come up quite a bit throughout and is relevant to position recruitment.

For those who have an issue with T Boyd playing 2nd ruck / forward - why?

It's his best position for mine - and he's proved decent in the ruck/around the ground.

FWIW I'm ok with recruiting Cloke as long as the $$ doesn't cost us another potential high profile trade.

[chef]

Maybe this is the wrong thread for this question, but it's come up quite a bit throughout and is relevant to position recruitment.

For those who have an issue with T Boyd playing 2nd ruck / forward - why?

It's his best position for mine - and he's proved decent in the ruck/around the ground.

FWIW I'm ok with recruiting Cloke as long as the $$ doesn't cost us another potential high profile trade.


Yep. I'm starting to think Boyd is going to be more Kurt Tippett than Tom Lynch.

[1eyedog]

Maybe this is the wrong thread for this question, but it's come up quite a bit throughout and is relevant to position recruitment.

For those who have an issue with T Boyd playing 2nd ruck / forward - why?

It's his best position for mine - and he's proved decent in the ruck/around the ground.

FWIW I'm ok with recruiting Cloke as long as the $$ doesn't cost us another potential high profile trade.

I think he's being played second ruck for two reasons 1. Campbell is injured and 2. it gets him into the game and fast-tracks increasing his tank.

He's a gun forward and I think that's where he'll play when Campbell returns. Why don't I like him in the ruck? His body is developing and he's already popped his shoulder playing there, plus by the time he's getting back to full forward he's knackered and I think it is one of the few reasons he's dropping his marks. I'd love to see Campbell back and have Boyd play forward the entire game.

[Bulldog4life]

Maybe this is the wrong thread for this question, but it's come up quite a bit throughout and is relevant to position recruitment.

For those who have an issue with T Boyd playing 2nd ruck / forward - why?

It's his best position for mine - and he's proved decent in the ruck/around the ground.

FWIW I'm ok with recruiting Cloke as long as the $$ doesn't cost us another potential high profile trade.

I just read on the Club website that he is relishing his time in the ruck.

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2016-08-14/boyd-constantly-inspired-by-teammates

[bulldogtragic]

Maybe this is the wrong thread for this question, but it's come up quite a bit throughout and is relevant to position recruitment.

For those who have an issue with T Boyd playing 2nd ruck / forward - why?

It's his best position for mine - and he's proved decent in the ruck/around the ground.

FWIW I'm ok with recruiting Cloke as long as the $$ doesn't cost us another potential high profile trade.

He has always been an elite footballer playing at full forward, a dead set gun who obviously went at pick 1. He's the best pedigree full forward we may ever have had recruited, and we are not playing him in his natural position. He's over 200cm & 100kg so of course he can ruck, but he's a highly talented natural footballer a potential gun FF. We could get Vickery to do the same job in the second ruck spot, Boyd isn't a supreme ruckman he's tall and big. We paid a high price for Boyd and he could tear the competition a part, and he needs to be with scoring distance. As we counter attack and look for a good marking forward he provides nothing at the half back flank coming off a throw in. I can accept a trial or covering Campbell being injured, but if we recruit another ruck or ruck/forward I will be pissed if we waste him rucking and kicking onto the heads of smalls or onto the loose defender.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Putting my opinion to one side, I can see us being interested in Cloke.

Whilst I am not a fan of Boyd rucking (we pay over a million to throw him into the ruck, which ultimately fatigues him to the point where he's a liability up forward) I think Bevo favours flexibility and seems as though he wants Boyd as our second ruck/forward option.

IF this is the case moving forward, I have no doubt Bevo would want Cloke at the right price.

[bulldogtragic]

What type of assistant coach was Bevo at Collingwood? (Ie. Forward, mid etc)

[jeemak]

Football Development Manager.

[bulldogtragic]

Football Development Manager.

So I assume he might have had a fair bit to do with Travis at the time, or at least know him well enough to make an informed decision. Our new CEO might not be on board if Travis pulls his CEO car parking shenanigans again.

[Ghost Dog]

Putting my opinion to one side, I can see us being interested in Cloke.

Whilst I am not a fan of Boyd rucking (we pay over a million to throw him into the ruck, which ultimately fatigues him to the point where he's a liability up forward) I think Bevo favours flexibility and seems as though he wants Boyd as our second ruck/forward option.

IF this is the case moving forward, I have no doubt Bevo would want Cloke at the right price.

In Watching Tom closely, he gets his hands to the ball, but not really attacking the grab. any experts in this?
When I went to Whitten Oval to watch training they would throw balls into each other's hands outstretched in very fast succession. He needs a lot of this sort of exercise I guess. Stronger hands and more mongrel intent.

[The Pie Man]

Putting my opinion to one side, I can see us being interested in Cloke.

Whilst I am not a fan of Boyd rucking (we pay over a million to throw him into the ruck, which ultimately fatigues him to the point where he's a liability up forward) I think Bevo favours flexibility and seems as though he wants Boyd as our second ruck/forward option.

IF this is the case moving forward, I have no doubt Bevo would want Cloke at the right price.

I suspect you're right re: Bevo's thoughts - even with Campbell fit, I can't see all three of Rough & the two big Toms in the same team...at least this year.

With Redpath injured, Cordy's been been (pleasantly) surprisingly serviceable up forward, though he's been playing a bit higher up than Jack did. Is this the type of role we'd foresee for Cloke should he join?

Cordy's future could be a whole other thread - he really could be something.

[ledge]

Apparently only one club Richmond are into Cloke.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Apparently only one club Richmond are into Cloke.

Would love for this to be the case.

[bornadog]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpqnjwEUEAE83SO.jpg

[GVGjr]

Hang on, but at one point we were going to have Campbell, Roughead, Boyd and Redpath in the same team.

Cloke has got a big tank and has a far greater range than many seem to think.

He can certainly go longer and further than Redpath.

To me Buckley does not seem to be getting the best out of a few players there.

So in your view of a potential forward line we could easily fit Boyd, Redpath, Crameri, Stringer and Campbell with Roughead in the ruck alternating with Campbell?
We would then have Dickson and a combination of McLean, Dahlhaus, Smith and Bontempelli also in the forward line?

I have to say it looks a very slow forward line and we would have a few bumping into each other in contesting marks.

I still maintain that we can't play 2 ruckman in a side that has 2 key forwards like a Cloke and Boyd along with Stringer, Crameri, Dickson and Bontempelli

I've warmed to Cloke though but it means we need to restructure the list a bit.

[1eyedog]

So in your view of a potential forward line we could easily fit Boyd, Redpath, Crameri, Stringer and Campbell with Roughead in the ruck alternating with Campbell?
We would then have Dickson and a combination of McLean, Dahlhaus, Smith and Bontempelli also in the forward line?

I have to say it looks a very slow forward line and we would have a few bumping into each other in contesting marks.

I still maintain that we can't play 2 ruckman in a side that has 2 key forwards like a Cloke and Boyd along with Stringer, Crameri, Dickson and Bontempelli

I've warmed to Cloke though but it means we need to restructure the list a bit.

I'm just repeating what Bevo was saying about 2 months ago. At the time Camhead were alternating in the ruck and redpath was playing forward and Bevo was constantly asked when / how does Boyd fit in and Bevo kept saying we can play red and Boyd forward.

I think Bont has played forward because we lack a target. Dahl, Dicko, McLean the smalls. I think Clay will play midfield.

Here's a bit of a look.

HF: Crameri Cloke Stringer
FF: Dahl / McLean Boyd Dickson

Perhaps Roughhead plays back with Adams and Roberts goes out of the team. Perhaps Cloke plays back, perhaps Roughie doesn't play. Perhaps Campbell goes to Essendon in the Hurley deal... It's all possible.

[GVGjr]

I'm just repeating what Bevo was saying about 2 months ago. At the time Camhead were alternating in the ruck and redpath was playing forward and Bevo was constantly asked when / how does Boyd fit in and Bevo kept saying we can play red and Boyd forward.

I think Bont has played forward because we lack a target. Dahl, Dicko, McLean the smalls. I think Clay will play midfield.

Here's a bit of a look.

HF: Crameri Cloke Stringer
FF: Dahl / McLean Boyd Dickson

Perhaps Roughhead plays back with Adams and Roberts goes out of the team. Perhaps Cloke plays back, perhaps Roughie doesn't play. Perhaps Campbell goes to Essendon in the Hurley deal... It's all possible.

And that's why I say it needs a restructure to accommodate Cloke. We simply can't play 4 talls in the forward line

[comrade]

2 rucks + Boyd is enough. With Crameri back we don't need Cloke as much. Would prefer to look at a more flexible player and have my eye on Xavier Richards.

[ledge]

SEN said only one club interested and it's Richmond They went on to say how ridiculous that is, you would only want Cloke if you needed to fill a gap in your premiership window . Richmond certainly aren't .
Also why would Cloke want to go to a side in that position at that age if there were other clubs ringing.
Only reasons you would go to Richmond are 1 no one else wants you
2 the money or years of

[hujsh]

So in your view of a potential forward line we could easily fit Boyd, Redpath, Crameri, Stringer and Campbell with Roughead in the ruck alternating with Campbell?
We would then have Dickson and a combination of McLean, Dahlhaus, Smith and Bontempelli also in the forward line?

I have to say it looks a very slow forward line and we would have a few bumping into each other in contesting marks.

I still maintain that we can't play 2 ruckman in a side that has 2 key forwards like a Cloke and Boyd along with Stringer, Crameri, Dickson and Bontempelli

I've warmed to Cloke though but it means we need to restructure the list a bit.

I think you're right with the given examples.

That said if we had a particularly mobile 2nd ruck/ key forward then maybe we might get away with it.

However none of Redpath Boyd Roughead or Campbell put on the forward pressure requred for that, so unless we get Ryder and Stanley offseason I guess it's a moot point

[1eyedog]

And that's why I say it needs a restructure to accommodate Cloke. We simply can't play 4 talls in the forward line

Agree with that

[LostDoggy]

SEN said only one club interested and it's Richmond They went on to say how ridiculous that is, you would only want Cloke if you needed to fill a gap in your premiership window . Richmond certainly aren't .
Also why would Cloke want to go to a side in that position at that age if there were other clubs ringing.
Only reasons you would go to Richmond are 1 no one else wants you
2 the money or years of

Given all the shit that went down between Coll/Rich and Trav's dad, I reckon some at Richmond would want him for old time's sake.

[Twodogs]

SEN said only one club interested and it's Richmond They went on to say how ridiculous that is, you would only want Cloke if you needed to fill a gap in your premiership window . Richmond certainly aren't .
Also why would Cloke want to go to a side in that position at that age if there were other clubs ringing.
Only reasons you would go to Richmond are 1 no one else wants you
2 the money or years of

Nathan Brown went to play in a premiership.

[bulldogtragic]

Nathan Brown went to play in a premiership.

And Cooney said he went to Essendon to play in front of big crowds.

[Twodogs]

And Cooney said he went to Essendon to play in front of big crowds.

And the soft floor. Don't forget the soft floor.

[Webby]

Given all the shit that went down between Coll/Rich and Trav's dad, I reckon some at Richmond would want him for old time's sake.

Yep, the curse of the fallen club: living in the past. I reckon we suffered from it post 1954, but are now over it. Most who remember '54 are in their mid 70's to 90's. With Richmond, a lot of their yearners for the past are as young as mid 40's. The "remember when" crew.

The beauty of our club nowadays is that we're almost rebooted. Like with the Swans more than a decade ago, you get to a point where you've virtually got a blank canvas. Nothing to live up to and can almost write a new episode. It's refreshing.

Unfortunately for Richmond, they'll have to keep being compared to the old times for several more years. And they'll have a lot of their nufties calling for links to the past such as old sons of past premiership players.

Cloke joining Richmond would make absolutely no sense. I'm not sold he'd make sense for us - but a club on the verge of a rebuild? I don't see the point - other than selling nostalgia. That in itself is backward viewing.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Mark Stevens said last night on the news, after reporting on Cloke, said something like the bulldogs will be calling, with a serious reporting face. He was clearly insinuating that Cloke is heading to us.

[LostDoggy]

2 rucks + Boyd is enough. With Crameri back we don't need Cloke as much. Would prefer to look at a more flexible player and have my eye on Xavier Richards.

Is it enough on our entire list though? What if 1 or 2 of these get injured. Even if a Cloke/Vickery/whoever is primarily depth, I reckon our list needs another key forward option with Redpath out for the year. Presuming Boyd will be it for 22 games and finals is a risk for mine.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Cloke is a good runner and a good athlete. With our colours on, he can reinvent himself and not have the Pies army and the press scrutiny on his back. He can be a great contested mark and he would have a very good sense of how Toyd would like the ball delivered to him. With our colours on he could rediscover his goal kicking. If that's the case, you bet we could fit him in with the other talls.

[Templeton31]

Love this from Bevo:

"Travis and I got on fine, but I haven't spoken to Travis since 2010," Beveridge said.

"I hope for him it works out (because) he's been a great Collingwood player, a premiership player, and his very best is extremely good.

"It would surprise me if Collingwood didn't want him to see out his contract."

in this article http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-08-16/trade-talk-a-compliment-to-dogs-beveridge

Perfect "flirting" with a player. The words are all by the book and we're gonna be respectful but at the same time managing to say "Hey Trav's Ego I think you are a top player". Love it. Bevo the master.

[Rocco Jones]

Love this from Bevo:

"Travis and I got on fine, but I haven't spoken to Travis since 2010," Beveridge said.

"I hope for him it works out (because) he's been a great Collingwood player, a premiership player, and his very best is extremely good.

"It would surprise me if Collingwood didn't want him to see out his contract."

in this article http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-08-16/trade-talk-a-compliment-to-dogs-beveridge

Perfect "flirting" with a player. The words are all by the book and we're gonna be respectful but at the same time managing to say "Hey Trav's Ego I think you are a top player". Love it. Bevo the master.

I was thinking the same. Bevo constantly seems a step or two ahead when making comments.

[Ozza]

Love this from Bevo:

"Travis and I got on fine, but I haven't spoken to Travis since 2010," Beveridge said.

"I hope for him it works out (because) he's been a great Collingwood player, a premiership player, and his very best is extremely good.

"It would surprise me if Collingwood didn't want him to see out his contract."

in this article http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-08-16/trade-talk-a-compliment-to-dogs-beveridge

Perfect "flirting" with a player. The words are all by the book and we're gonna be respectful but at the same time managing to say "Hey Trav's Ego I think you are a top player". Love it. Bevo the master.

I didn't like it at all.

I wanted to hear the words "Surplus to our requirements" or something else along the lines of 'not interested'.

[Templeton31]

I didn't like it at all.

I wanted to hear the words "Surplus to our requirements" or something else along the lines of 'not interested'.

I think the fact that Bevo didn't say that says something.

[bulldogtragic]

I think the fact that Bevo didn't say that says something.

Especially considering a month or so ago that our public statement was we don't need him.

[Ozza]

I think the fact that Bevo didn't say that says something.

Yes....its a worry.

T.Cloke = stinks of 'Bulldogs Talls of Shame'.

[Remi Moses]

Lot of jumping at shadows on here .
It's basically media reporting ( started by Grub Barrett) and has spread like wildfire

[1eyedog]

What if Campbell is somehow required for the Hurley trade?
What if Tom Boyd is indeed needed as a ruck / forward next year?
Is a forward line consisting of Crameri and Stringer as our main keys ok with you?
What if we can get Cloke cheap and he plays the Redpath role next year?

[Topdog]

Yes....its a worry.

T.Cloke = stinks of 'Bulldogs Talls of Shame'.

If as reported he is available at $250k a season we'd be foolish not to look at it. Id want to see if he still has the ability to run because as a stay home forward he is not good.

[KT31]

Campbell has shown a bit this season, with his best in years to come I would be hesitant to lose him.

[1eyedog]

Confirmation the Tiges are after him now.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/richmond-set-to-make-play-for-out-of-favour-magpie-travis-cloke/news-story/fd0b598cc13b7a29806a002a1d3d21a4

[Twodogs]

Confirmation the Tiges are after him now.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/richmond-set-to-make-play-for-out-of-favour-magpie-travis-cloke/news-story/fd0b598cc13b7a29806a002a1d3d21a4

What a joke. I'd be furious if I was a Richmond supporter and my club was wasting it's time on a player like Cloke.

[LostDoggy]

What a joke. I'd be furious if I was a Richmond supporter and my club was wasting it's time on a player like Cloke.

Is it an indication that they know vickery is out the door?

[bulldogtragic]

Is it an indication that they know vickery is out the door?

Good chance. If it comes off Liam McBean must be thinking that Jack, Cloke & Hampson/Griffths means he needs to find a new club to get a game. Vickery & McBean hold some interest for me.

[G-Mo77]

Is it an indication that they know vickery is out the door?

They can have Cloke and we can have Vickery.

[azabob]

Can McBean even play? Appears to have the Ayce Cordy about him.

[bulldogtragic]

Can McBean even play? Appears to have the Ayce Cordy about him.

Don't know to be honest, they seem to want to play several forward/rucks around Jack and not him.

[The Underdog]

God I hope it happens. I'm off to trademark "Jack & Cloke" Richmond coloured merchandise as we speak. (Come to think of it, that'd work for Redpath and Cloke too)

[Twodogs]

God I hope it happens. I'm off to trademark "Jack & Cloke" Richmond coloured merchandise as we speak. (Come to think of it, that'd work for Redpath and Cloke too)

Hopefully not in Richmond colours though.

[Pickenitup]

Got a close connection to the pies the dogs had a meeting with Clokey today

[bulldogtragic]

Got a close connection to the pies the dogs had a meeting with Clokey today

Ch 10 reckon he has told the club he wants out & Collingwoog expecting a late second rounder... Good luck with that Collingwood.

[Twodogs]

Ch 10 reckon he has told the club he wants out & Collingwoog expecting a late second rounder... Good luck with that Collingwood.

Richmond will give them one. They'd only waste it otherwise.

[bornadog]

Ch 10 reckon he has told the club he wants out & Collingwoog expecting a late second rounder... Good luck with that Collingwood.

They should be happy to just get someone else to contribute to his salary.

[bulldogtragic]

They should be happy to just get someone else to contribute to his salary.

Should...

[LostDoggy]

Richmond will give them one. They'd only waste it otherwise.

only problem is Richmond don't have late 2nd round picks. Only good clubs get late round picks.

[Twodogs]

only problem is Richmond don't have late 2nd round picks. Only good clubs get late round picks.


I wouldn't put it past Richmond to waste their first pick on Cloke.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I wouldn't put it past Richmond to waste their first pick on Cloke.

Neither would I, except that they will need to use it to get Prestia.

[bornadog]

only problem is Richmond don't have late 2nd round picks. Only good clubs get late round picks.

Maybe they can have Cloke, we will take Vickery and work a deal (BT this is your area not mine)

[bulldogtragic]

Maybe they can have Cloke, we will take Vickery and work a deal (BT this is your area not mine)

Vickery is a restricted free agent. All JMac has to do is make a good offer and Bevo a promise of games if he works hard enough. If Richmond got Cloke, I reckon they'd take the free agency compo for Vickery on a 3 year deal around $300-350,000. My guess is second round after theirs, so pick 25. That gives them 6, 24, 25 & 42 for Prestia & Cloke (any others) and mixing picks around. Personally, I'd let Richmond tie themselves up in picks and salary with Collingwood and go for Vickery.

[Doc26]

Vickery is a restricted free agent. All JMac has to do is make a good offer and Bevo a promise of games if he works hard enough. If Richmond got Cloke, I reckon they'd take the free agency compo for Vickery on a 3 year deal around $300-350,000. My guess is second round after theirs, so pick 25. That gives them 6, 24, 25 & 42 for Prestia & Cloke (any others) and mixing picks around. Personally, I'd let Richmond tie themselves up in picks and salary with Collingwood and go for Vickery.

Richmond are so damn confusing seeming to be in this constant state of flux but going nowhere. Are they topping up ? Are they resetting ? Outside Martin, Rance and Riewoldt the cupboard is pretty bare and yet they're apparently keen on bringing in Cloke now at the expense of a possible additional draft pick to bring in some younger talent. They're like the failed North of 2016 with their Dad's Army but even more confused. Hardwick has them winning a final in 2017:confused:

[Twodogs]

Hardwick is a fool for saying that. Now when they flop again next year all the journos will trot out that quote.

[Remi Moses]

It reeks of Dimma being told they need to play finals next season, and goes against reboot or reconstruct or whatever buzz word they use now . The dreaded " rebuild" doesn't get bandied around much now

[bornadog]

Hardwick has them winning a final in 2017:confused:

Lucky to win a game let alone a final. :D

Truth be known, they can have Cloke.

[Twodogs]

Lucky to win a game let alone a final. :D

Truth be known, they can have Cloke.


I'm not going to lose any sleep if Richmond nab him. He's just the bloke for cover until Redpath is right to go. If it's not him we will get someone else.

[LostDoggy]

Doubt we'll have lost any interest after the weekend. 5 marks inside 50, 4 contested marks (6 contested possessions) and 2.2 against Hawthorn in a finals like game is the sort of performance we could use.

[Twodogs]

That's assuming we play him in the forward line. Playing him in defence is the last thing the opposition will be expecting us to do...

[LostDoggy]

That's assuming we play him in the forward line. Playing him in defence is the last thing the opposition will be expecting us to do...

By my count we'd have 5 players vying for KPD posts come R1 next year (Roberts, Hamling, Adams, Collins, Cordy) and 1 genuine key position sized forward (the still developing Boyd), so recruiting a proven key forward and attempting to turn him into a key defender would seemingly be an odd call in our position?

[hujsh]

Doubt we'll have lost any interest after the weekend. 5 marks inside 50, 4 contested marks (6 contested possessions) and 2.2 against Hawthorn in a finals like game is the sort of performance we could use.

It was the definition of a mixed bag though.

Good contest, didn't hold the mark, good mark, missed the goal, good mark, kicked into the man on the mark, etc, etc.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

By my count we'd have 5 players vying for KPD posts come R1 next year (Roberts, Hamling, Adams, Collins, Cordy) and 1 genuine key position sized forward (the still developing Boyd), so recruiting a proven key forward and attempting to turn him into a key defender would seemingly be an odd call in our position?

I think you may have missed Twodogs' joke PP!

There's a bit of an "internal" joke that we recruit players and turn them into something else, ie. TBoyd as a FF and we play him as a ruck.

[1eyedog]

It was the definition of a mixed bag though.

Good contest, didn't hold the mark, good mark, missed the goal, good mark, kicked into the man on the mark, etc, etc.

Yep weigh all that up against our key forward on the weekend...

Sounds a bit like crickets chirping in the Grand Canyon I know.

[Twodogs]

Absolutely a joke.

I think I'd take it personally if they did something like that. I'd assume they were trying to annoy me by refusing to play anyone in front of the ball who actually knows what they're doing.

[LostDoggy]

I think you may have missed Twodogs' joke PP!

There's a bit of an "internal" joke that we recruit players and turn them into something else, ie. TBoyd as a FF and we play him as a ruck.
Cheers TBB. At times TD's humour is a bit too subtle for me :)

[Twodogs]

In all seriousness versatility is key with Bevo so I'd expect that Cloke will spend some time in the ruck as well as forward if he made the move tto us.

[Greystache]

In all seriousness versatility is key with Bevo so I'd expect that Cloke will spend some time in the ruck as well as forward if he made the move tto us.

Yep imagine how exciting it would be next year when Cloke takes a contested mark at full back, goes short to Brent Harvey on the back flank, who chips it to Dickson playing on a wing, who handballs sideways to Tom Boyd playing in the ruck, who then bangs it long into the forward 50m to an outnumbered midfielder pinch hitting as a forward.

It's the last thing any opposition would expect!

[kruder]

Yep imagine how exciting it would be next year when Cloke takes a contested mark at full back, goes short to Brent Harvey on the back flank, who chips it to Dickson playing on a wing, who handballs sideways to Tom Boyd playing in the ruck, who then bangs it long into the forward 50m to an outnumbered midfielder pinch hitting as a forward.

It's the last thing any opposition would expect!

I've been having nightmares about it all season. I really like Bevo but his flexibility mantra has gone too far. Just wished there was an analytical mind in the media that would question him about it.

[1eyedog]

The Travis Cloke scenario seems to be hotting up considerably.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/collingwood-magpies-travis-cloke-probably-headed-to-western-bulldogs-nick-maxwell-20160830-gr4abh.html

[Bulldog4life]

I've been having nightmares about it all season. I really like Bevo but his flexibility mantra has gone too far. Just wished there was an analytical mind in the media that would question him about it.

Agree. It is fine for mids to kick goals but we need forwards who play like forwards not midfielders masquerading as forwards.

[comrade]

Has officially requested a trade.

[chef]

The Travis Cloke scenario seems to be hotting up considerably.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/collingwood-magpies-travis-cloke-probably-headed-to-western-bulldogs-nick-maxwell-20160830-gr4abh.html

Bring it on

[EasternWest]

Although I'm not particularly keen on getting Cloke, I'm not stridently against it either.

What I am concerned about is dealing with that idiot David "Damir" Cloke.

[Axe Man]

Although I'm not perticularly keen on getting Cloke, I'm not stridently against it either.

What I am concerned about is dealing with that idiot David "Damir" Cloke.

We always hear bad things about David Cloke but Travis' manager is Robbie D’Orazio from Connors Sports Management, not David as I have heard in the past. Will David really be able to cause any issues?

[EasternWest]

We always hear bad things about David Cloke but Travis' manager is Robbie D’Orazio from Connors Sports Management, not David as I have heard in the past. Will David really be able to cause any issues?

It's not the management terms that worry me - it's what the Herald Scum will desperately print about our club as soon as Damir sees something involving Travis that he doesn't like.

[Greystache]

We always hear bad things about David Cloke but Travis' manager is Robbie D’Orazio from Connors Sports Management, not David as I have heard in the past. Will David really be able to cause any issues?

David "co-manages" Travis alongside Robbie.

So basically he interferes in things he's not qualified to deal with and makes a mess out most things.

[MrMahatma]

Reckon he could be a good fit for 2 years. Cloke, Crameri, Murphy. Some good "ins" for rd 1 next year.

[bornadog]

The more I think about it the more I don't want another washed up player at our club.

[bulldogtragic]

HF: Crameri Cloke McLean
F: Dickson Boyd Stringer/Bonts/Dahl/resting ruck

No room up forward for Smith, Jong, Picken, Dunkley, Webb & Stevens. Cordy might have to play in defence. We might have to play multiple forwards?!?!

[Greystache]

HF: Crameri Cloke McLean
F: Dickson Boyd Stringer/Bonts/Dahl/resting ruck

No room up forward for Smith, Jong, Picken, Dunkley, Webb & Stevens. Cordy might have to play in defence. We might have to play multiple forwards?!?!

Nah, Cloke at CHB, Dickson on a wing, Crameri back to being trialed an inside midfielder, Boyd in the ruck

So basically

HF- McLean ??? Stringer
F- ??? ??? Resting mid

That is if Stringer's not in the midfield of course

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Nah, Cloke at CHB, Dickson on a wing, Crameri back to being trialed an inside midfielder, Boyd in the ruck

So basically

HF- McLean ??? Stringer
F- ??? ??? Resting mid

That is if Stringer's not in the midfield of course

We joke about it, but our refusal to play players in their preferred positions is insanity. I posted elsewhere about it, but neglecting drafting genuine forwards is biting us in the arse right now too. We must be the only side in the land who has a VFL forward line full of midfielders. We simply do not have any developing forwards of any nature (tall, medium or small).

[Twodogs]

Yep imagine how exciting it would be next year when Cloke takes a contested mark at full back, goes short to Brent Harvey on the back flank, who chips it to Dickson playing on a wing, who handballs sideways to Tom Boyd playing in the ruck, who then bangs it long into the forward 50m to an outnumbered midfielder pinch hitting as a forward.

It's the last thing any opposition would expect!

I like the play where we burst through the middle of the ground and kick long bombs to the opposition full back all by himself in the goalsquare. One day one of those full backs will drop the mark and we will make hay.

[comrade]

Insanity that has won us 14 and 15 games with consecutive finals series.

[bornadog]

Insanity that has won us 14 and 15 games with consecutive finals series.

Exactly Comrade, Bevo with a 64.4% win record. Not bad after not having 6 or 7 of our best 22 available every week this year.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Insanity that has won us 14 and 15 games with consecutive finals series.

And possibly two straight exits.

We're a good side but we're not a contender and there are reasons for that outside of plain 'youth'.

[comrade]

And possibly two straight exits.

We're a good side but we're not a contender and there are reasons for that outside of plain 'youth'.

What are the reasons?

[Remi Moses]

And possibly two straight exits.

We're a good side but we're not a contender and there are reasons for that outside of plain 'youth'.

Not a contender this season, but to be honest there is nothing much between about 7 teams .
We saw what the crows were like without 2 key players last weekend , and Geelong have barely had an injury .
Health of a list is extremely important, and we need to address our effiency issues .

[The Bulldogs Bite]

What are the reasons?

Pretty well documented but in short:

1 - Our ball use (mainly coming from our mids and obviously goal conversion). We are desperate for polish and pace would be nice.
2 - Lack of leading forwards (Crameri out has hurt us, it's why Redpath was important and likely why we want Cloke)
3 - Lack of crumbing forwards (Dahl plays mid, he's really our only natural crumber)
4 - Lack of natural forwards (We are playing midfielders as half forwards/pockets and it just doesn't work. Our points for is embarrassing this year and our only real injury has been Redpath with Crameri missing. We never even look like scoring)

Our injuries have clearly hit us hard, particularly in the back half, yet our defensive game remains very sound. We've hardly had earth shattering injuries to our forward group, yet have struggled all season to score. Part of this is delivery which I touched on earlier, but part of it is also because we have a severe lack of forwards. Bont is one of few mids in the competition who has forward instinct.

I just don't see us contending until we can fix these issues to an adequate degree.

[Remi Moses]

In fairness every side plays mids forward though because of the interchange restrictions .
Make some salient points

[comrade]

So that all seems like a personnel issue rather than Bevo going crazy with positional changes. Who is he playing out of position that would help out leading patterns? What can Bevo do with a lack of natural forwards? Who would you be playing in place of the midfielders resting forward, that Bevo isn't?

[bornadog]

A forward line boasting non KPP of Crameri, Stringer, Dickson, Mclean and in future Hrovat, Dale is capable. Tom Boyd still learning but gives structure when up forward.

Firstly the forward line is not the big issue, it is the delivery from back to forward. This has been impacted by the numerous injuries to our backman which has forced us to change our game plan and for mids to become more defence and help the backline out. Bevo is not happy with this, but his hand is forced by the extensive injury list and the experience of our list. Most weeks we have been playing with at least 10 players with less than 50 games experience.

When Bevo came to the club, he didn't expect us to make a challenge till 2017. but has been pleasantly surprised by what we have achieved to date.

I agree a couple of speedy outside runners would be great. I would love to have a Treloar type in the team. I can't see Cloke fitting in with our game plan, but could be wrong.

[Eastdog]

Could someone like Tom Campbell spend time as a ruck/forward?

[bornadog]

So that all seems like a personnel issue rather than Bevo going crazy with positional changes. Who is he playing out of position that would help out leading patterns? What can Bevo do with a lack of natural forwards? Who would you be playing in place of the midfielders resting forward, that Bevo isn't?

The only player playing out of position in the forward line has been Cordy. This was forced on us when Redpath went down. TC has been injured and Bevo has not been confident to play Minno. We found out why Minno has not played this year on Sunday after Roughead was out due to injury.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

So that all seems like a personnel issue rather than Bevo going crazy with positional changes. Who is he playing out of position that would help out leading patterns? What can Bevo do with a lack of natural forwards? Who would you be playing in place of the midfielders resting forward, that Bevo isn't?

It's a bit of both and I've voiced my frustration at our drafting similar type players over recent years.

First of all, I wouldn't allow Dickson to be venturing outside of forward 50 when we have no Crameri and an out of form Stringer. With our 18 midfielders why is one of our best forwards so often on the wing? It's such a waste. He's our smartest forward yet we are asking him to be a high half forward/mid in a side crying out for forward nous.

Boyd taking on second ruck duties astounds me. We pay over a million a year for one of the highest rated key forwards in the last decade and we try to turn him into a second ruck. Why? Every time he goes into the ruck, we lack structure up forward because we're bombing it to midfielders like Jong and Dunkley who are out-numbered.

It's no coincidence we at least looked half dangerous when all three of Campbell, Roughead and Redpath played. Yes - two of them got injured - but they simply should have been replaced by Minson and Boyd in the same roles. Yes - Minson is cooked and it's not ideal - but at the very least we uphold some sort of structure instead of asking a 20 year old to be our second ruck AND our best forward at the same time.

I'd also argue that somebody like Honeychurch should be in the side as a forward pocket for manic pressure/crumbing - even though I don't necessarily rate him at AFL level. He does have some goal nous and would apply more pressure than our resting mids, who find themselves out of position 80% of the time.

Some of these players (ie. Minson and Honeychurch) aren't as good as the ones we might currently be playing, but structurally they'd be a far better fit. Right now, we have the worst forward structure I've ever seen at AFL level.

[Twodogs]

We need good ball users especially by foot, players who can run away from the contest (with the ball) and targets to aim at in the forward line. That's what we desperately need. Then there's other positions that need to be improved upon, like a decent tall defender, small forward that will need to be in place before we are a contender.

Some of those things will come internally but at the very least every player we recruit from now on must be able to kick the ball at the very least. We are at critical mass for players who butcher the ball.

[Eastdog]

We need good ball users especially by foot, players who can run away from the contest (with the ball) and targets to aim at in the forward line. That's what we desperately need. Then there's other positions that need to be improved upon, like a decent tall defender, small forward that will need to be in place before we are a contender.

Some of those things will come internally but at the very least every player we recruit from now on must be able to kick the ball at the very least. We are at critical mass for players who butcher the ball.

Today's game is too much geared towards how fit a player is and no longer on skill level. Back a long time ago fitness wasn't as much a factor as it is now and player with skill level were more at the fore. Would be nice to have a few elements of the old school style footy brought back combined with modern day but that won't happen now.

[Greystache]

It's a bit of both and I've voiced my frustration at our drafting similar type players over recent years.

First of all, I wouldn't allow Dickson to be venturing outside of forward 50 when we have no Crameri and an out of form Stringer. With our 18 midfielders why is one of our best forwards so often on the wing? It's such a waste. He's our smartest forward yet we are asking him to be a high half forward/mid in a side crying out for forward nous.

Boyd taking on second ruck duties astounds me. We pay over a million a year for one of the highest rated key forwards in the last decade and we try to turn him into a second ruck. Why? Every time he goes into the ruck, we lack structure up forward because we're bombing it to midfielders like Jong and Dunkley who are out-numbered.

It's no coincidence we at least looked half dangerous when all three of Campbell, Roughead and Redpath played. Yes - two of them got injured - but they simply should have been replaced by Minson and Boyd in the same roles. Yes - Minson is cooked and it's not ideal - but at the very least we uphold some sort of structure instead of asking a 20 year old to be our second ruck AND our best forward at the same time.

I'd also argue that somebody like Honeychurch should be in the side as a forward pocket for manic pressure/crumbing - even though I don't necessarily rate him at AFL level. He does have some goal nous and would apply more pressure than our resting mids, who find themselves out of position 80% of the time.

Some of these players (ie. Minson and Honeychurch) aren't as good as the ones we might currently be playing, but structurally they'd be a far better fit. Right now, we have the worst forward structure I've ever seen at AFL level.

Agree with all of that.

Dickson should be playing forward not on the wing. Stringer should be playing high rather than hiding out the back of a contest in the goal square. Dahlhaus should be playing forward/mid not the other way around given the number of mids we have and the lack of players who can kick a goal. Boyd should be playing forward with very brief stints in the ruck.

We can barely score and yet our most dangerous goal kickers spend half the game up on the half back line. It's so frustrating.

[Twodogs]

It's like getting Eddie van Halen to join your band and making him the piano player because he's the only one who knows how to play piano and one of the roadies knows how to play guitar, for god's sake get another piano player!

[GVGjr]

I think Freo will make a big play for him. It's going to be an interesting couple of weeks to see what jumps up.

[Sedat]

It's like getting Eddie van Halen to join your band and making him the piano player because he's the only one who knows how to play piano and one of the roadies knows how to play guitar, for god's sake get another piano player!
EVH is a pretty awesome keyboard player but I get what you're saying ;)

[LostDoggy]

I think we have to acknowledge that we are still a team in development. When Bevo and the MC make positional changes that seem to make little sense in the now, he is learning more about the best team we can be in the years to come.

[Templeton31]

I think Freo will make a big play for him. It's going to be an interesting couple of weeks to see what jumps up.

I think the amount of press saying Cloke to the Dogs means it's signed sealed and delivered it just can't be said that way yet.

[ledge]

I think the amount of press saying Cloke to the Dogs means it's signed sealed and delivered it just can't be said that way yet.

Like Hurley

[1eyedog]

Jmac said today we are heavily into him. I read that as if he doesn't come its because he doesn't want to.

[bulldogtragic]

Saw an ad this morning that Cloke is on the footy show Thursday. Since I haven't watched it for about a decade or more, if anyone watches it and if he mentions us, please let us all know.

[bornadog]

Jmac said today we are heavily into him. I read that as if he doesn't come its because he doesn't want to.

or got a better offer.

[Bulldog4life]

Saw an ad this morning that Cloke is on the footy show Thursday. Since I haven't watched it for about a decade or more, if anyone watches it and if he mentions us, please let us all know.

C'mon tune in BT. You know you want to.

[1eyedog]

or got a better offer.

Yeah that's what I meant.

[The Doctor]

One thing our forward line lacks is leadership.

Our backline has had the experienced group of Murphy, Boyd, Morris and Wood to lead the way.

Our midfield has had some fine younger leaders in Libba, Wallis and Bont.

Our forward line has no one. We could really use and experienced forward who knows what to do and can help direct things down there and help us with a bit of structure.

I haven't been a Cloke advocate and still need some convincing but I'm really concerned that we have no one up forward who seems to have a clue, like we do in the backs and midfield (when all fit). I'm not sure who else may be gettable this trade season that would help address this but we need to do something about it.

Not sure Harvey is the answer either. Gary Ablett Jnr??

[1eyedog]

One thing our forward line lacks is leadership.

Our backline has had the experienced group of Murphy, Boyd, Morris and Wood to lead the way.

Our midfield has had some fine younger leaders in Libba, Wallis and Bont.

Our forward line has no one. We could really use and experienced forward who knows what to do and can help direct things down there and help us with a bit of structure.

I haven't been a Cloke advocate and still need some convincing but I'm really concerned that we have no one up forward who seems to have a clue, like we do in the backs and midfield (when all fit). I'm not sure who else may be gettable this trade season that would help address this but we need to do something about it.

Not sure Harvey is the answer either. Gary Ablett Jnr??

Crameri when he returns next year?

[Mofra]

One thing our forward line lacks is leadership.

Our backline has had the experienced group of Murphy, Boyd, Morris and Wood to lead the way.

Our midfield has had some fine younger leaders in Libba, Wallis and Bont.

Our forward line has no one. We could really use and experienced forward who knows what to do and can help direct things down there and help us with a bit of structure.

I haven't been a Cloke advocate and still need some convincing but I'm really concerned that we have no one up forward who seems to have a clue, like we do in the backs and midfield (when all fit). I'm not sure who else may be gettable this trade season that would help address this but we need to do something about it.

Not sure Harvey is the answer either. Gary Ablett Jnr??
Murphy forward next year?

[AndrewP6]

I'm coming round to the idea. If nothing else, it will allow me to vent my frustrations at someone.

[bornadog]

I'm coming round to the idea. If nothing else, it will allow me to vent my frustrations at someone.

We need someone.


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQotdkW4bkYfkEPU25Jna38juI9llyUg0p--F0cYmXK5ENUldCjmw

[LostDoggy]

Good chance. If it comes off Liam McBean must be thinking that Jack, Cloke & Hampson/Griffths means he needs to find a new club to get a game. Vickery & McBean hold some interest for me.

McBean delisted. Available for the cost of a pick. As a 22 year old 202 cm ruck/forward, may be worth a rookie spot as cover if other plans fail to come off?

[Dancin' Douggy]

Wow. I remember my Richmond supporter mates RAVING about McBean.

[Twodogs]

Wow. I remember my Richmond supporter mates RAVING about McBean.



About how hopeless he was? I wasn't overly impressed with his game against us and apparantly it was his best game ever.

[bulldogtragic]

McBean delisted. Available for the cost of a pick. As a 22 year old 202 cm ruck/forward, may be worth a rookie spot as cover if other plans fail to come off?

For sure. Depth is good and looking at Campbell for instance, it takes a while for some big guys. He's a massive upgrade on Goetz for a RK ruck!

[Axe Man]

McBean delisted. Available for the cost of a pick. As a 22 year old 202 cm ruck/forward, may be worth a rookie spot as cover if other plans fail to come off?

Vickery is likely to leave the Tigers and they delist their backup ruck/forward in McBean - that says it all really. May as well just get Ayce Cordy back.

[Mofra]

About how hopeless he was? I wasn't overly impressed with his game against us and apparantly it was his best game ever.
One career AFL goal I think.
Richmond fans seem to think at VFL level he was excellent overhead, a complete liability as soon as the ball hit the deck.

[Sedat]

McBean delisted. Available for the cost of a pick. As a 22 year old 202 cm ruck/forward, may be worth a rookie spot as cover if other plans fail to come off?
A shit tall is still shit - the way McBean 'attacks' the contest makes Ayce Cordy look like Leigh Matthews. You either have the competitive instinct to hunt the ball and the contest or you don't - McBean doesn't.

[bulldogtragic]

A shit tall is still shit - the way McBean 'attacks' the contest makes Ayce Cordy look like Leigh Matthews. You either have the competitive instinct to hunt the ball and the contest or you don't - McBean doesn't.

I remember the same was said about Johnathan Ceglar. We've done a lot worst on the rookie list than McBean if the consensus of the list manager is needing a developing ruck on the rookie list (to replace Goetz spot).

[Sedat]

I remember the same was said about Johnathan Ceglar. We've done a lot worst on the rookie list than McBean if the consensus of the list manager is needing a developing ruck on the rookie list (to replace Goetz spot).
Completely agree with the rationale that we need a developing ruck on the list (rookie or main) - just not sold on McBean being anything other than a dud who can't compete. If our list managers and footy dept think differently, I'll gladly bow to their judgement.

[bulldogtragic]

Completely agree with the rationale that we need a developing ruck on the list (rookie or main) - just not sold on McBean being anything other than a dud who can't compete. If our list managers and footy dept think differently, I'll gladly bow to their judgement.

Fair call. Looking at Hawthorn with Hale (pick 53), Ceglar (DFA) & now Fitzpatrick (DFA), I think panning for ruck gold in the pile of discarded rucks is a solid strategy. It might not be McBean, but I'd be seriously looking at all options, including McBean, other than Cam Wood because he 'retired'...

[Bulldog4life]

A shit tall is still shit - the way McBean 'attacks' the contest makes Ayce Cordy look like Leigh Matthews. You either have the competitive instinct to hunt the ball and the contest or you don't - McBean doesn't.

Agree waste of a pick if we get him. He is not AFL standard. Far off it in fact.

[Sedat]

Fair call. Looking at Hawthorn with Hale (pick 53), Ceglar (DFA) & now Fitzpatrick (DFA), I think panning for ruck gold in the pile of discarded rucks is a solid strategy.
Agree 100%, and not even off other AFL clubs discard list - there has to be a Ben Hudson 25yo type tearing it up somewhere in Australia busting a gut to get their chance.

[Axe Man]

Agree 100%, and not even off other AFL clubs discard list - there has to be a Ben Hudson 25yo type tearing it up somewhere in Australia busting a gut to get their chance.

For any SANFL watchers, how is Sam Baulderstone from Norwood going? He has been touted as a rookie pick in the past and is 25.

[Twodogs]

I know that name, Baulderstone. Has he been on a list before?

[Axe Man]

I know that name, Baulderstone. Has he been on a list before?

No, he was talked up a couple of years ago but didn't get picked up. I'm just wondering how he's been going since as he is at an age where big men are often peaking. This is an article from back then:

Norwood’s Sam Baulderstone on AFL rookie draft radar after successful rise through SANFL (http://www.foxsports.com.au/news/norwoods-sam-baulderstone-on-afl-rookie-draft-radar-after-successful-rise-through-sanfl/news-story/cd653d5a446484bd0b537a8f3b18cfa0)

[Twodogs]

No, he was talked up a couple of years ago but didn't get picked up. I'm just wondering how he's been going since as he is at an age where big men are often peaking. This is an article from back then:

Norwood’s Sam Baulderstone on AFL rookie draft radar after successful rise through SANFL (http://www.foxsports.com.au/news/norwoods-sam-baulderstone-on-afl-rookie-draft-radar-after-successful-rise-through-sanfl/news-story/cd653d5a446484bd0b537a8f3b18cfa0)

He was a big kid.

[LostDoggy]

Going by Clokes interview on the footy show he pretty much confirmed he's coming to the Dogs in 2017.

[anfo27]

Going by Clokes interview on the footy show he pretty much confirmed he's coming to the Dogs in 2017.

What exactly did he say Jaytee?

[LostDoggy]

What exactly did he say Jaytee?

The flog asked him about our interest in him. He said he hasn't spoke to Bevo, but loves the way we play, management have confirmed mutual intetest and he will be a 'Supporter' whilst watching us in finals.

Pretty much won't be confirming anything yet whilst we are still alive this year.

[LostDoggy]

DEPARTING Collingwood forward Travis Cloke has revealed Western Bulldogs as his destination of choice for 2017 as he hunts a second premiership.

The 29-year-old broke the news to Magpies coach Nathan Buckley on Tuesday that he would be seeking a trade to the Bulldogs, a club he will watch "as a keen supporter" in the upcoming finals series.

"I've enjoyed watching their (Bulldogs) footy I guess over the last two years to see how Bevo (coach Luke Beveridge) has changed their whole football club around," Cloke told Channel Nine.

"I actually haven't spoken to Bevo as such but I'm sure in the coming weeks I will.

"They've got their own finals campaign at the moment and obviously going to do very well.

"I'll watch them as a keen supporter as most will.

"If that's where I do end up, they play a very exciting brand of footy and I feel like I could improve their side but also they can get the best out of me and we can work something out there."

Beveridge was forced to contact Buckley earlier this season after Bulldog Lin Jong was caught meeting with the Magpies. Instead, the Bulldogs have taken a different approach as they chase the 2010 premiership star. 



"Management with Paul (Connors) and Robbie (D'Orazio) have had conversations with the Western Bulldogs, obviously a few other clubs have communicated and had a chat as well," he said.

"I want to be involved in a winning culture, winning club. That's going to be pretty important in my decision going forward."

In a wide-ranging interview with The Footy Show, Cloke spoke about:



- Richmond making contact with his management in what would be a nostalgic family moment after his dad David made the same move across town more than 30 years ago;

- The preferred option of continuing his career in Melbourne but "would never say no" to a move interstate;


- Wanting to "reach out" to St Kilda champion Nick Riewoldt in coming weeks to try and learn to "reinvent" himself as a player;


- His training load of 98 per cent in 2016 the highest he'd ever completed in his career, still pushing 15kms in matches;


- Getting dropped ahead of round 20 "hurt a lot" prompting his decision to look for a future elsewhere.


"I'm a pretty loyal person and that was probably the hardest thing to remove myself from that 2017 contract," he said.

"I didn't want to be playing VFL football, they can't guarantee you're going to be playing senior footy all the time, depending on form, body, what the club's doing, where it's going as well.

"I thought I'd been playing some reasonably good football, helping with the success we actually had in the second half of the season."

Cloke played the first three years of his career under Buckley's captaincy before he replaced Mick Malthouse as coach in 2012.

"My friendship with Bucks is always going to be the same, our relationship as a coach and player obviously had its ups and downs this year as well," he said.

"Bucks is a great fella, we've always got along, we've always been very supportive. I guess I just didn't fit into the game structure of the game set-up for the Collingwood Footy Club. It's disappointing.

"Mick, I owe everything to Mick. I really loved playing under him. (I) understood the way he went about it, he's very different to Bucks, they're polar opposites in their coaching.

"But at the same time they both understood what they wanted to do. Both strong-minded individuals."

Should Cloke land at the Bulldogs, he would be reunited again with another link to the 2010 flag – Beveridge an assistant coach at the Magpies before moving to Hawthorn and assuming the job at Whitten Oval.

[1eyedog]

DEPARTING Collingwood forward Travis Cloke has revealed Western Bulldogs as his destination of choice for 2017 as he hunts a second premiership.

The 29-year-old broke the news to Magpies coach Nathan Buckley on Tuesday that he would be seeking a trade to the Bulldogs, a club he will watch "as a keen supporter" in the upcoming finals series.

"I've enjoyed watching their (Bulldogs) footy I guess over the last two years to see how Bevo (coach Luke Beveridge) has changed their whole football club around," Cloke told Channel Nine.

"I actually haven't spoken to Bevo as such but I'm sure in the coming weeks I will.

"They've got their own finals campaign at the moment and obviously going to do very well.

"I'll watch them as a keen supporter as most will.

"If that's where I do end up, they play a very exciting brand of footy and I feel like I could improve their side but also they can get the best out of me and we can work something out there."

Beveridge was forced to contact Buckley earlier this season after Bulldog Lin Jong was caught meeting with the Magpies. Instead, the Bulldogs have taken a different approach as they chase the 2010 premiership star. 



"Management with Paul (Connors) and Robbie (D'Orazio) have had conversations with the Western Bulldogs, obviously a few other clubs have communicated and had a chat as well," he said.

"I want to be involved in a winning culture, winning club. That's going to be pretty important in my decision going forward."

In a wide-ranging interview with The Footy Show, Cloke spoke about:



- Richmond making contact with his management in what would be a nostalgic family moment after his dad David made the same move across town more than 30 years ago;

- The preferred option of continuing his career in Melbourne but "would never say no" to a move interstate;


- Wanting to "reach out" to St Kilda champion Nick Riewoldt in coming weeks to try and learn to "reinvent" himself as a player;


- His training load of 98 per cent in 2016 the highest he'd ever completed in his career, still pushing 15kms in matches;


- Getting dropped ahead of round 20 "hurt a lot" prompting his decision to look for a future elsewhere.


"I'm a pretty loyal person and that was probably the hardest thing to remove myself from that 2017 contract," he said.

"I didn't want to be playing VFL football, they can't guarantee you're going to be playing senior footy all the time, depending on form, body, what the club's doing, where it's going as well.

"I thought I'd been playing some reasonably good football, helping with the success we actually had in the second half of the season."

Cloke played the first three years of his career under Buckley's captaincy before he replaced Mick Malthouse as coach in 2012.

"My friendship with Bucks is always going to be the same, our relationship as a coach and player obviously had its ups and downs this year as well," he said.

"Bucks is a great fella, we've always got along, we've always been very supportive. I guess I just didn't fit into the game structure of the game set-up for the Collingwood Footy Club. It's disappointing.

"Mick, I owe everything to Mick. I really loved playing under him. (I) understood the way he went about it, he's very different to Bucks, they're polar opposites in their coaching.

"But at the same time they both understood what they wanted to do. Both strong-minded individuals."

Should Cloke land at the Bulldogs, he would be reunited again with another link to the 2010 flag – Beveridge an assistant coach at the Magpies before moving to Hawthorn and assuming the job at Whitten Oval.

Like it or not Crameri and Cloke in our forward line are going to roam like Lions. They will be formidable and both will demand huge respect.

Cloke, Crameri, Stringer, Boyd and our smalls is deadly.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Hard not to like Trav as a bloke. Seems a genuine guy who is loyal, but in the end, has to look after his own interests.

Let's hope it works out tremendously well for both of us.

[bulldogtragic]

#DestinationClub :D

[bulldogtragic]

Essendon's previous leading goal kicker and Collingwood's previous leading goal kicker... Both requesting a trade to us.

[bulldogtragic]

HF: Crameri Cloke McLean
F: Dickson T. Boyd Stringer/Dahl/Bonts/Camhead/Daniel/Hrovat

[bornadog]

HF: Crameri Cloke McLean
F: Dickson T. Boyd Stringer/Dahl/Bonts/Camhead/Daniel/Hrovat

Unstoppable