Is there any danger (of us doing something about the forward line)???

[mjp]

So. I guess I am hardly one to comment but is there any danger (any at all) of something being done about our forward half/scoring woes that have plagued our progress for pretty much two seasons now. We have a great defensive structure that has pretty much enabled us to lose Murphy, Wood, Boyd, JJ, Suckling, Adams, Morris...whoever - and just plug in 'someone else' and barely miss a beat. Bevo spoke earlier in the year about the 'cupboard being almost bare back there' but we have continued to be hard to score against almost regardless of personnel.

In the mids, we keep winning contested ball, we keep winning uncontested ball, we out-possess our opponents by an almost obscene number from week to week, we win clearances (centre clearances, around the ground clearances, BTI's, whatever) all despite losing Liber, not having a ruckman, losing Stevens, not having a ruckman, losing Dal...

But our forward line - our forward system - is completely broken. Anyone who watched the game on Friday night knows this. More importantly, anyone who watched Friday night who has regularly watched games over the past couple of years would have watched what was happening and not been surprised in the slightest. When we continually 'pumped it in' at the start of the last quarter only to never, ever, ever LOOK like kicking a goal it simply looked like a replay of every game against a top 4 side over the past couple of seasons.

- We kick SHORT to 1-vs-1 contests in that turnover zone - from 45-70m from goal. Nothing good EVER, EVER, EVER happens from these kicks. They are NEVER marked - who can mark a bullet pass whilst running flat out with an opponent one millimetre behind them? NO-ONE. They are ALWAYS swept away by the opposition - and the opposition defenders are never placed under pressure by these kicks because they KNOW that the ball is not in a scoring position.

- We kick LONG and DEEP to 2-vs-1 against contests (lol when the two on Friday night were Taylor and Lonergan - like what opposition player in HISTORY would win that battle more than 1 time out of 20?) and the forward has no chance. Not only that, the ball is often so deep that if the opposition cannot mark it, they just knock it over the line and regain possession. It is DUMB footy.

- During transition, we have no plan to 'tick back' to the foot and too often we try and 'hit' a 45-50m sliding lead...when the opposition 'full back' (for want of a better term - though it is probably just called the 'deep' in their zone structure) can simply step up and impact on those entries either with an intercept mark or simply creating a contest that allows the cavalry to arrive.

Do we have any shape ahead of the ball? Ever? Making simple connections from half back to centre/centre-forward positions just seems impossible against good teams - with every kick either trying to hit a slider or simply being a 25m spot up to a stationary player who is not in a position to play on either by hands or by running...again, this just allows the cavalry to arrive.

We can talk personnel all we like (and yep, Crameri would help I am sure but this was an issue last year as well) but surely it is our structure/style of play from half-back to forward 50 that is the issue here. Has anyone noticed a change? Can anyone identify a plan? I can hear the ridicule of players like Boyd and the criticism of Dickson and Stringer but honestly what exactly are they supposed to do?

[bulldogtragic]

Couldn't agree more. I would like to know which coach has ultimate responsibility, be it midfield or forward coach. I said in bother thread that it's near impossible to know if our forwards are in good form or not such is the problem. I think the best we looked this year against a decent opponent was Port Adelaide. We seemed to chip it to a lead, had multiple leading targets and held the ball a little longer and made effective passes. I think going ahead we need to turn over some poor kicks in the team, sure some have other attributes but bad kicking and/or bad decision making is killing our ability to score, despite often winning inside 50's. Having Tom ruck is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[Remi Moses]

Twice now against Geelong we've bombed forward to possibly the worst defenders you could possibly do that against.
Agree, we need to fix this problem urgently .
The loss of Murph was huge in that he's lateral movement, run and kicking causes havoc with defenders .

[ledge]

From what I see we just don't lower our eyes enough and kick long .. Wood seems to intercept and his adrenalin seems to take over and instead of looking for something he runs bounces and just kicks long.
Daniel is one that does spot up, and that's when we score. He is our best at it.

[bornadog]

We need to move the ball out of defense a lot quicker. To many times we are slow moving the ball which gives the opposition time to flood our backline and therefore clog up our forward 50 and giving no space to our forwards to lead.

There was a great passage and example of where we did move the ball quickly in the first quarter. Dickson lead out marked the ball and Stringer ran on, received the handball and went bang. In that passage of play, Geelong defenders were caught out high up the ground and had no chance to double back.

Geelong play a completely different game where the backman try to hold on to the ball and retain possession, as they move the ball slowly up the ground, with short passes, crisscrossing around the ground. I don't believe we have the skills to play that way. We have been most successful with running and bouncing out of the back 50, but we haven't seen a lot of it this year.

Have a look at the 4.50m mark, this is what we haven't seen for some time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkxztZBF6o

[mjp]

Sure. But there IS going to be slow play. We ARE going to get held up. And we still need a plan.

[bornadog]

Sure. But there IS going to be slow play. We ARE going to get held up. And we still need a plan.

I agree, but I am not clever enough to work out what to do? :D, other than to say, in those situations, we have to find targets, and ensure we kick accurately, we have to also be a little patient and not panic when we get the ball, and start bombing it to a contest.

Do you have some suggestions of what we should be doing?

[Mantis]

Do we have:

1/ Enough players who can kick accurately to hit a target or even kick to advantage?

2/ Enough players who have natural forward instincts.. No how to lead and find space?

[Eastdog]

This is a big issue for us. Our defence despite it being knocked around with injuries has held up really well but our forward line just hasn't been doing the job as well. We need guys like Boyd, Stringer etc to lead up. Redders before he got injured in certain games did very well as a lead up forward target. With Crameri coming back next year hopefully it will improve it. T Boyd I feel should be playing as much full forward as possible. Stringer is better running between midfield and forward - he gets some great goals in open play - it hasn't been a great year for Jake - thought he was better last year.

[mjp]

I agree, but I am not clever enough to work out what to do? :D, other than to say, in those situations, we have to find targets, and ensure we kick accurately, we have to also be a little patient and not panic when we get the ball, and start bombing it to a contest.

Do you have some suggestions of what we should be doing?

Easy: Those long, deep entries? They have to go to a spot 15m out from goal - not to the goal-square where it is so easily defended.
Hard: There just needs to be a better shape ahead of the play where the highest players is going deep (sliding) and the deepest player is hitting up at the foot...at least make the defenders hand the forwards over. There needs to be two options - one at the foot and one sliding. And this needs to be combined with a defend first mindset/structure when the ball is in d50/mid-d zones. Like I said, this bit is hard.

[comrade]

I thought the first quarter was some of our best ball movement of the year, transitioning from half back.

I think teams are deliberately setting up with an extra player back at all times against us - Geelong and North especially - knowing we are likely to not lower our eyes and just bomb it long.

How do you mitigate the extra defender? Run and carry, I'd imagine. Having a tall bloke that can mark it or at least halve a contest also helps. We kind of have that in Boyd - definitely didn't have that with Redpath - but our ruck set up means he's not down there for half the game, leaving Stringer and Dickson to battle away on their own.

Personally, I'd be looking to play Suckling and JJ higher up the field exclusively. Let Biggs, Boyd, Webb etc take the medium/small defensive roles. These 2 can generally hit targets, can run and carry and kick long over the congestion and potentially score from outside 50.

The other option is to play the extra ruck man. We lose a midfielder which I don't love, but we are more likely to keep shape up forward.

[EasternWest]

Easy: Those long, deep entries? They have to go to a spot 15m out from goal - not to the goal-square where it is so easily defended.
Hard: There just needs to be a better shape ahead of the play where the highest players is going deep (sliding) and the deepest player is hitting up at the foot...at least make the defenders hand the forwards over. There needs to be two options - one at the foot and one sliding. And this needs to be combined with a defend first mindset/structure when the ball is in d50/mid-d zones. Like I said, this bit is hard.

This is one of the biggest issues for mine. I don't mind when occasionally you just have to bomb it in (I said occasionally, rather than every time), but we never sever seem to have someone at the fall which allows them to just clear it.

I've said a lot of times, and I'm not the only one to say it I know, that even though Boyd isn't clunking them yet he's very good at getting it to ground. But to what end, when the only ones at ground level are the opposition. So frustrating.

[whythelongface]

We seem to be better when we move the ball quickly from our backline to an open forward line. Are we better off not worrying about winning the centre clearances and the contested footy and trying to win the ball in our defensive half.?This way we can transition the ball quickly and create space in our forward line. It is a risky strategy as it means we will probably have more points scored against us. We probably don't have the personnel in our backline to try this at present.

It is a similar scenario to the round ball game where high possession teams often lose to teams that play a counter attacking style. Particularly those teams that don't have the skills to deliver decent balls to their strikers.

[Ghost Dog]

I thought the first quarter was some of our best ball movement of the year, transitioning from half back.

I think teams are deliberately setting up with an extra player back at all times against us - Geelong and North especially - knowing we are likely to not lower our eyes and just bomb it long.

How do you mitigate the extra defender? Run and carry, I'd imagine. Having a tall bloke that can mark it or at least halve a contest also helps. We kind of have that in Boyd - definitely didn't have that with Redpath - but our ruck set up means he's not down there for half the game, leaving Stringer and Dickson to battle away on their own.

Personally, I'd be looking to play Suckling and JJ higher up the field exclusively. Let Biggs, Boyd, Webb etc take the medium/small defensive roles. These 2 can generally hit targets, can run and carry and kick long over the congestion and potentially score from outside 50.

The other option is to play the extra ruck man. We lose a midfielder which I don't love, but we are more likely to keep shape up forward.

Sounds about right. Early in the season it was common for JJ or Easton to try to break the lines a bit. Hopefully we can see a bit more of it return.

[bornadog]

The other option is to play the extra ruck man. We lose a midfielder which I don't love, but we are more likely to keep shape up forward.

We need a very mobile 2nd ruck that can play tall and play like a midfielder. Stanley is one of the fastest players in the AFL, and really is a perfect 2nd ruck type. His problem is consistency.

[kruder]

So. I guess I am hardly one to comment but is there any danger (any at all) of something being done about our forward half/scoring woes that have plagued our progress for pretty much two seasons now. We have a great defensive structure that has pretty much enabled us to lose Murphy, Wood, Boyd, JJ, Suckling, Adams, Morris...whoever - and just plug in 'someone else' and barely miss a beat. Bevo spoke earlier in the year about the 'cupboard being almost bare back there' but we have continued to be hard to score against almost regardless of personnel.

In the mids, we keep winning contested ball, we keep winning uncontested ball, we out-possess our opponents by an almost obscene number from week to week, we win clearances (centre clearances, around the ground clearances, BTI's, whatever) all despite losing Liber, not having a ruckman, losing Stevens, not having a ruckman, losing Dal...

But our forward line - our forward system - is completely broken. Anyone who watched the game on Friday night knows this. More importantly, anyone who watched Friday night who has regularly watched games over the past couple of years would have watched what was happening and not been surprised in the slightest. When we continually 'pumped it in' at the start of the last quarter only to never, ever, ever LOOK like kicking a goal it simply looked like a replay of every game against a top 4 side over the past couple of seasons.

- We kick SHORT to 1-vs-1 contests in that turnover zone - from 45-70m from goal. Nothing good EVER, EVER, EVER happens from these kicks. They are NEVER marked - who can mark a bullet pass whilst running flat out with an opponent one millimetre behind them? NO-ONE. They are ALWAYS swept away by the opposition - and the opposition defenders are never placed under pressure by these kicks because they KNOW that the ball is not in a scoring position.

- We kick LONG and DEEP to 2-vs-1 against contests (lol when the two on Friday night were Taylor and Lonergan - like what opposition player in HISTORY would win that battle more than 1 time out of 20?) and the forward has no chance. Not only that, the ball is often so deep that if the opposition cannot mark it, they just knock it over the line and regain possession. It is DUMB footy.

- During transition, we have no plan to 'tick back' to the foot and too often we try and 'hit' a 45-50m sliding lead...when the opposition 'full back' (for want of a better term - though it is probably just called the 'deep' in their zone structure) can simply step up and impact on those entries either with an intercept mark or simply creating a contest that allows the cavalry to arrive.

Do we have any shape ahead of the ball? Ever? Making simple connections from half back to centre/centre-forward positions just seems impossible against good teams - with every kick either trying to hit a slider or simply being a 25m spot up to a stationary player who is not in a position to play on either by hands or by running...again, this just allows the cavalry to arrive.

We can talk personnel all we like (and yep, Crameri would help I am sure but this was an issue last year as well) but surely it is our structure/style of play from half-back to forward 50 that is the issue here. Has anyone noticed a change? Can anyone identify a plan? I can hear the ridicule of players like Boyd and the criticism of Dickson and Stringer but honestly what exactly are they supposed to do?

To be honest I think there is almost an obsession about winning the contested ball hence the extra number in their allowing the opposition an extra in defence. What it does say is that Bevo doesn't rate our defence one on one ( i think we are 16th for allowing scores once inside 50% hence Hurley top of the agenda) which has driven this concept of avoiding entries at all cost.

It has compounded our forward line issues allowing oppostition to play an extra against an undermanned forward line. I have been to a number of live games and our shape ahead of the ball is awful win or lose. We put so much extra pressure on our mids by not having a target and it's amplified against the pressure of the top 4 teams. We then ask inside mids to play outside which makes it harder again. I'd swap roles with hunter and JJ and see what damage JJ can do further up the field.

Our forwards also lack movement and quite often we are leading for the same pill instead of creating separation and space for one another, their is definitely a lack of cohesion. Thats why i was so keen for Redpath to play because the guy actually draws the footy and leads up at the pill. The game against Melbourne was a perfect example and it was the best game by a forward in our colours this year. Obviously consistency has been his issue but can any forward be consistent with the current set up?

The other compounding issue is that can Roughead actually finish one game without looking like he has broken something? For a first choice ruckman he can only last 60% time in the ruck which is forcing Boyd to play far too much time in the ruck. Bevo did admit this in his latest presser and we really need Campbell back in the side which will enable Boyd to spend more time up forward and develop this cohesion. Tommy resting forward along side Boyd is also a dangerous proposition IMO.

As I said last week I'd prefer to take time to work on system rather than grinding out the wins and hoping our forwards click in September. For some reason I have a feeling they won't....

[stefoid]

The finer points of forward craft elude me, but I reckon our gameplan right now is based on the notion that most of our defenders aernt the best.

Bev must feel that if we back off our radical flood and press strategy with the personnel we have right now then we will simply concede more goals then we gain, and end up worse off.

Id be pretty interested to see how we would change strategy with a first choice backline (like Geelong has the luxury of) that looks like (for wishful thinking example)

Wood, Adams, Morris
Murph, Hurley, JJ

That being said, our forward craft must be a work in progress. We are one of the most inexperienced teams in the league, and what experience we do have is confined mostly to the back half.

Id like to see a list of teams ordered by the age/games of their mids and forwards only, and Id be suprised if we werent at the bottom of it.

So yeah, there is room for vast improvement in scoring ability, but I dont expect it to come until we can field a solid back 6 or 7, and pump another 20 or 30 games into most of our mid/forward group.

[anfo27]

Been to every home game this year and its been very frustrating to watch us in transition as we just don't have the structure forward of the ball to punish sides on the turnover. Time and again we will create a turnover and we will have the ball but have to hold it up because there is nobody ahead of the ball. Its a huge problem because we just aren't able to get any easy goals.

Watch Adelaide and every time they create a turnover its 2 long kicks and its Eddie or Jenkins who runs into an open goal. We need to be able to get a couple easy goals to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

Bevo just doesn't rate our tall defenders like Roberts or Hamling and Morris & Adams are undersized. We are too defensively minded and push too many too far back so once the turnover is created through our pressure we have nobody ahead of the ball.

Its why I've been asking to chase Hurley above anything else we do. We get Hurley we can have more faith in our defenders one on one and we can structure up differently.

There are other issues with how we play and move the ball but this is my main concern.

[bornadog]

Bevo just doesn't rate our tall defenders like Roberts or Hamling and Morris & Adams are undersized.

Do you rate them, as I certainly don't?

[EasternWest]

Do you rate them, as I certainly don't?

Roberts has exceeded my expectations this year. Hamling a terrible disappointment. He's just gone backwards. Sad to see.

[bornadog]

Roberts has exceeded my expectations this year. Hamling a terrible disappointment. He's just gone backwards. Sad to see.

I am prepared to give Roberts a couple of more years as he is still young, but god he needs to build up his body. Ditto on Hamling.

[stefoid]

Watch Adelaide and every time they create a turnover its 2 long kicks and its Eddie or Jenkins who runs into an open goal. We need to be able to get a couple easy goals to keep the scoreboard ticking over.
.

yeah its a neat trick, but its no less one-dimensional than our strategy.

I wonder if we could hold just one bloke back from the press, who would it be? Have to be someone who was fast, good in a 1:1 contest, and a good running kick at goal....

[Ghost Dog]

Jong perhaps? He doesn't use his speed enough at times. Grant used to be pretty handy at that.

On another note, hoping for better return on Long-bomb investment next game.
Boyd having to deal with Tom Lonergan and Harry Taylor for the whole night - something we won't have to deal with each week. It's a credit to him he did so well. They are elite defenders.
Better pickings against the Kanga's backline.

[Mofra]

I think teams are deliberately setting up with an extra player back at all times against us - Geelong and North especially - knowing we are likely to not lower our eyes and just bomb it long.
It just appears that way because we push one of our higher forwards into the contest.

The reason we are winning so many midfield battles is because we play a forward as an extra midfielder, basically robbing the forwardline to enhance the midfield. I guess the rationale is we'd rather beat the opposition in a more important area of the ground but it does make the job 1000% harder for our forwards.

Our forte is when we manage to lock the ball into the F50 and score from a stoppage (despite being 11th in the comp for forwardline efficiency we're near the top for scores from stoppages). That's either because our best forwards are contested players or we want to play more contested players so we always have players ready to take a midfield rotation. Of course that once again robs us when we're talking quick entries or trying to spot up targets on transition, something most other teams can score from with ease.

Bevo talks about matching the gameplan with the personnel at his disposal. I guess we're sacrificing F50 efficiency for that reason. I hate seeing Boyd spend so much time out of the F50 area and I think we definitely need another marking threat (not necessarily a traditional KPF, just someone who can split the tall defenders) before we can significantly tweak our forward structure.

[1eyedog]

I'm wondering how much involvement Bevo has with what Gia provides. I'm worried about Gia, great club person, good communicator and ripping bloke but I wonder whether his talents would be better served in player management rather than as a forward line coach.

I think we need to bring in a forward line coach from outside the club at the end of the year.

Also how good was it seeing Boyd lead on Friday night. He lead into space 40 metres out and got the hit up. I know we are missing Crameri for this role but it's not hard to find a bloke with the instruction to double back and keep presenting. All year we have kicked to stationary targets. I know the opposition lock down the premium spots in F50 but geez there is ample space for a Dickson, Smith type to lead into.

Another thing that bothers me is Dickson playing up the ground for most of the year. Surely the coaching staff realize that this has not worked and we have robbed the forward line because of it - all this on the back of losing our best lead up forward for the year.

[LostDoggy]

Good thread.

After blaming our forwards and delivery from the midfield for majority of the year, I'm starting to see the real issue is the coming from the coaches box. Our game plan.

Our game plan is all about territory, getting the ball in our forward half and setting up our defensive structures behind the ball. It's almost as if our number one objective when kicking into our forward fifty is to provide a contest and get a ball up/boundary throw in as deep as possible. We then back our contested ball winners at stoppages to get the job done. From this our defence set up behind the ball and we go for repeat entries.

This is why we are so hard to score against. We rarely try and hit up targets, which, if misdirected can lead to turnovers and scores from the opposition on the counter. We take the safe option and go long majority of the time.

As MJP mentioned in the opening post our ability to win the contested ball, uncontested ball and clearances is elite and the best in the competition. This allows us to gain the territory advantage and set up our structure behind the ball. It's why despite our backline being decimated by injury is still very difficult to score against.

We are clearly playing to our strengths and it's keeping us in games. But we do need to look at altering this slightly to allow us to score a bit easier and more frequent.

[Bulldog4life]

I'm wondering how much involvement Bevo has with what Gia provides. I'm worried about Gia, great club person, good communicator and ripping bloke but I wonder whether his talents would be better served in player management rather than as a forward line coach.

I think we need to bring in a forward line coach from outside the club at the end of the year.

Gia has been in the AFL coaching program since 2011

http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/coaching-the-future-coaches/

[1eyedog]

Gia has been in the AFL coaching program since 2011

http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/coaching-the-future-coaches/

I know though I'm not sure if that makes him a good coach, or the right coach for us.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Our forward line looked at its best early in the year with Dahlhaus at half forward and Maclean's smartness in a forward pocket. Stringer is at his most dangerous playing closer to goal and the return of Minson and eventually Campbell to partner Roughead in the ruck would allow Tom Boyd to play as a permanent full forward. We still lack a quality player at CHF apart from Bontempelli when he is spared from the midfield which becomes more difficult now with the loss of Liberatore and Macrae in the midfield. I would like to see Roughead spend more time at CHF due to his strong overhead marking allowing Campbell when fit or Minson to do the bulk of the ruck work.

[SlimPickens]

Our forward line looked at its best early in the year with Dahlhaus at half forward and Maclean's smartness in a forward pocket. Stringer is at his most dangerous playing closer to goal and the return of Minson and eventually Campbell to partner Roughead in the ruck would allow Tom Boyd to play as a permanent full forward. We still lack a quality player at CHF apart from Bontempelli when he is spared from the midfield which becomes more difficult now with the loss of Liberatore and Macrae in the midfield. I would like to see Roughead spend more time at CHF due to his strong overhead marking allowing Campbell when fit or Minson to do the bulk of the ruck work.

Bonts ability to go forward is going to be incredibly important with this run to the finals, makes it even more important to get more out of the lesser lights running through the midfield.

[Bullies]

I am prepared to give Roberts a couple of more years as he is still young, but god he needs to build up his body. Ditto on Hamling.
Roberts killed Hawkins. People use Roberts as the whipping boy. He has actually done well this year on the best forward each week.

[bornadog]

Roberts killed Hawkins. People use Roberts as the whipping boy. He has actually done well this year on the best forward each week.

I don't believe he is a whipping boy.

He is very poor one on one as he doesn't have the strength to go with the bigger forwards.

[Ghost Dog]

Happy to see Roberts trialled as a forward. If Hamling can be tried, why not? Some good vision of his marking when he was a younger player.

[anfo27]

Do you rate them, as I certainly don't?

I think Roberts is getting better but he'll never be your number 1 KPD and at his size we need him to be that. Hamling was a liability on Friday night in the forward line and overall he has been disappointing.

If its not Hurley then we need to have a plan B like a May or someone because a problem we need to fix.

[anfo27]

Roberts killed Hawkins. People use Roberts as the whipping boy. He has actually done well this year on the best forward each week.

Roberts looks ok when we get back in numbers and defend but when the ball comes down quick and he is caught one on one with a Hawkins or a Walker he looks like he will lose every contest. I think he looks better with every game he plays but still a long way away from beating a gun forward in one on one contest with regularity.

[LostDoggy]

yeah its a neat trick, but its no less one-dimensional than our strategy.

I wonder if we could hold just one bloke back from the press, who would it be? Have to be someone who was fast, good in a 1:1 contest, and a good running kick at goal....

I could see either Maclean or Hrovat being employed in this role for the next few weeks, maybe the 2 of them as part of a rotation.


Happy to see Roberts trialled as a forward. If Hamling can be tried, why not? Some good vision of his marking when he was a younger player.

Can't see that happening in the next couple of weeks as North and Collingwd both have multiple very tall foward options and we simply don't presently have enough defensive alternatives with big enough bodies.

[Ghost Dog]

I could see either Maclean or Hrovat being employed in this role for the next few weeks, maybe the 2 of them as part of a rotation.



Can't see that happening in the next couple of weeks as North and Collingwd both have multiple very tall foward options and we simply don't presently have enough defensive alternatives with big enough bodies.

Yes agreed, I mean moving forward in the future. Once Collins and Adams come back I'm not sure if I see a place for him in the backline. Easton, JJ, Collins, Adams, Biggs, Matty Boyd. That would be our back six, so where does Roberts go?
If we don't plan to train him to do the job of a forward I don't see a slot other than the VFL.

[Mofra]

I think Roberts is getting better but he'll never be your number 1 KPD and at his size we need him to be that. Hamling was a liability on Friday night in the forward line and overall he has been disappointing.

If its not Hurley then we need to have a plan B like a May or someone because a problem we need to fix.
I'd hope Collins as the big boy and Zaine with Adams as mobile types works as a long term plan.
I really think Zaine has what it takes and Adams has already shown he is AFL standard.

PS - Not much faith in Roberts forward I'm afraid. Too slow which means he'd never get separation on his opponent so every marking attempt would be contested.

[Ghost Dog]

I'd hope Collins as the big boy and Zaine with Adams as mobile types works as a long term plan.
I really think Zaine has what it takes and Adams has already shown he is AFL standard.

PS - Not much faith in Roberts forward I'm afraid. Too slow which means he'd never get separation on his opponent so every marking attempt would be contested.

Moving forward, depth player at best I guess, but he has certainly been there when we needed him down back.

[bornadog]

Yes agreed, I mean moving forward in the future. Once Collins and Adams come back I'm not sure if I see a place for him in the backline. Easton, JJ, Collins, Adams, Biggs, Matty Boyd. That would be our back six, so where does Roberts go?
If we don't plan to train him to do the job of a forward I don't see a slot other than the VFL.

Collins is 18 years old and turns 19 in December, he is 5 years off playing as a regular KPP (if he makes it at all). Roberts is 23, and will only improve in the next few years. We don't have anyone else to really take his role at the moment, unless we go shorter.

[Ghost Dog]

Collins is 18 years old and turns 19 in December, he is 5 years off playing as a regular KPP (if he makes it at all). Roberts is 23, and will only improve in the next few years. We don't have anyone else to really take his role at the moment, unless we go shorter.

Has definitely improved as the year has gone on.

[Mofra]

Collins is 18 years old and turns 19 in December, he is 5 years off playing as a regular KPP (if he makes it at all). Roberts is 23, and will only improve in the next few years. We don't have anyone else to really take his role at the moment, unless we go shorter.
How do you get 5 years for Collins when the under-developed-as an 18 year old PSD pick Roberts was playing regular football as a 21-22 year old?
Adams is a regular when fit at age 22 as well. Backmen tend to develop a touch earlier than forwards.

Collins needs to learn a zone and after 1-2 pre-seasons he will be ready to push for selection.

[always right]

Not confident in the future of Roberts, but have to say he's been very solid the last month. Good on him.

[bornadog]

How do you get 5 years for Collins when the under-developed-as an 18 year old PSD pick Roberts was playing regular football as a 21-22 year old?
Adams is a regular when fit at age 22 as well. Backmen tend to develop a touch earlier than forwards.

Collins needs to learn a zone and after 1-2 pre-seasons he will be ready to push for selection.

I am just saying 5 could be 4 as you say, but at 18/19 we can't expect too much from him in a key role.

[Ghost Dog]

I am just saying 5 could be 4 as you say, but at 18/19 we can't expect too much from him in a key role.

Forgetting his fitness, the tackle he laid on Patton in the NAB, can't see Roberts ever doing that. I think he is being a bit undersold. They call him Dad for a reason.

[bornadog]

Forgetting his fitness, the tackle he laid on Patton in the NAB, can't see Roberts ever doing that. I think he is being a bit undersold. They call him Dad for a reason.

They call him Dad because he looks old.

[Ghost Dog]

They call him Dad because he looks old.

Exactly. Not old, Older. Anyone who can sack Patton has some serious grunt. I'm confident he will be playing seniors for a few games at least next season.

[Ghost Dog]

Another week of our forward line troubles.
On the bright side, Boyd could have had one, ( Dickson infringement ) and was a good grab. Contested well I thought.
He does ok in the ruck but still wish we didn't have to play him there.

Stringer might have had two more easy ones. Looked flat.
It will come together, Dickson has shown some improvement and has been involved, chasing and working hard, but need more from him score wise obviously.
Someone in his position should be doing better than a goal a game perhaps, given what he gave us last year too.

[LostDoggy]

Pretty extraordinary to win a match without a multiple goalkicker. Wonder when the last game ever was where there were no multiple goalkickers for either team?

[Bulldog4life]

I think the forward line set up needs a fresh set of eyes next season. One of the moves I would like too see is for Ash Hansen to coach our forwards while maybe Gia gets his own team at Footscray. A plus for both guys as they are both in the early part of their coaching career.

[Hot_Doggies]

I think the forward line set up needs a fresh set of eyes next season. One of the moves I would like too see is for Ash Hansen to coach our forwards while maybe Gia gets his own team at Footscray. A plus for both guys as they are both in the early part of their coaching career.

IF the forward line issues are Gia's fault I would show him the door.

[jeemak]

Looking at our structure it's way to simplistic to pin our forward woes on Gia.

The cattle at his disposal has been inconsistent all year. There's not a single established and genuine KPP running through there, whilst his small to medium sized forwards run through more areas of the ground than their opposition counterparts. The small to medium contingent barely has a genuine or classical forward among them, with Stringer himself being a jack of all trades who's to this point been able to leverage his superior talent over less talented opponents. He's not able to do that now given he's rarely had a foil, he's played a number of games carrying an ailment, and has had to take the best two or three forwards every week. Dickson plays high as well.

The point that stood out to me from MJP's opening post was our inability to slide and present, or force the opposition to handover forwards between defenders. It's a good point and the best way to create confusion in opposition defenders is to do it - but it needs to be complemented by an ability to move the ball quickly and cleanly forward in transition.

Unfortunately with us playing as high as we do when the opposition has the ball in its forward half, coupled with our slower ball movement due to the absence of all of Wood, Murphy, Suckling and Johannisen for significant chunks of the season (with no defender consistently taking intercept marks like Adams was early, plus our lack of outside polish) we don't have forwards starting deep enough at the start of a transition or the ability to move it well enough to get it to them cleanly. It's hard to generate a handover in these circumstances.

All of this stuff is fixable, and if it's obvious to me I'm pretty sure it's going to be obvious enough for Gia, Montgomery, Hansen, King, Smith and Beverage to identify and plan around. But moving the ball forwards is the hardest thing to do well considering the effort the better clubs put into defencive structures, and you need personnel to be available consistently to do it.

But, just as it was when he was a player Gia's probably going to cop it unfairly in my view, and I'll probably spend too much time and bandwidth defending him like a dog barking at the wind! :)

[Topdog]

I know though I'm not sure if that makes him a good coach, or the right coach for us.

But what makes him a bad coach, or the wrong coach for us?

[1eyedog]

But what makes him a bad coach, or the wrong coach for us?

That's true

[Bulldog4life]

Looking at our structure it's way to simplistic to pin our forward woes on Gia.

The cattle at his disposal has been inconsistent all year. There's not a single established and genuine KPP running through there, whilst his small to medium sized forwards run through more areas of the ground than their opposition counterparts. The small to medium contingent barely has a genuine or classical forward among them, with Stringer himself being a jack of all trades who's to this point been able to leverage his superior talent over less talented opponents. He's not able to do that now given he's rarely had a foil, he's played a number of games carrying an ailment, and has had to take the best two or three forwards every week. Dickson plays high as well.

The point that stood out to me from MJP's opening post was our inability to slide and present, or force the opposition to handover forwards between defenders. It's a good point and the best way to create confusion in opposition defenders is to do it - but it needs to be complemented by an ability to move the ball quickly and cleanly forward in transition.

Unfortunately with us playing as high as we do when the opposition has the ball in its forward half, coupled with our slower ball movement due to the absence of all of Wood, Murphy, Suckling and Johannisen for significant chunks of the season (with no defender consistently taking intercept marks like Adams was early, plus our lack of outside polish) we don't have forwards starting deep enough at the start of a transition or the ability to move it well enough to get it to them cleanly. It's hard to generate a handover in these circumstances.

All of this stuff is fixable, and if it's obvious to me I'm pretty sure it's going to be obvious enough for Gia, Montgomery, Hansen, King, Smith and Beverage to identify and plan around. But moving the ball forwards is the hardest thing to do well considering the effort the better clubs put into defencive structures, and you need personnel to be available consistently to do it.

But, just as it was when he was a player Gia's probably going to cop it unfairly in my view, and I'll probably spend too much time and bandwidth defending him like a dog barking at the wind! :)

I haven't seen where Gia has copped it unfairly on this forum. Personally I love the guy. But it is a good thing for any Club to change their line coaches and develop fresh ideas. Also a line coach doesn't have to coach in a posItion he played either. When at Hawthorn Bevo coached the backline yet he was a forward pocket/ rover.

[jeemak]

I haven't seen where Gia has copped it unfairly on this forum. Personally I love the guy. But it is a good thing for any Club to change their line coaches and develop fresh ideas. Also a line coach doesn't have to coach in a posItion he played either. When at Hawthorn Bevo coached the backline yet he was a forward pocket/ rover.

We can agree to disagree on your first point, and agree to agree on your second and third!

[bornadog]

We can agree to disagree on your first point, and agree to agree on your second and third!

And I agree on your disagree and agree on your other agrees, but have been known to disagree on someone's agreed disagree.:D

[Bulldog4life]

We can agree to disagree on your first point, and agree to agree on your second and third!

2 out of 3. I'll take it.

[LostDoggy]

2 out of 3. I'll take it.

So did Meatloaf ;)

[westdog54]

And I agree on your disagree and agree on your other agrees, but have been known to disagree on someone's agreed disagree.:D

Is that you Sir Humphrey?

[Greystache]

It looked like the worst of the McCartney years today. 14 players around the ball and no one in our half of the ground. I have no idea what the plan is to score, it seems like we hope to get an out of bounds somewhere in goal scoring range without it being deliberate.

We kicked less than 50 points for the 3rd time this year.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

It looked like the worst of the McCartney years today. 14 players around the ball and no one in our half of the ground. I have no idea what the plan is to score, it seems like we hope to get an out of bounds somewhere in goal scoring range without it being deliberate.

We kicked less than 50 points for the 3rd time this year.

Our ultra defensive game plan doesn't lend itself to a cohesive forward line with both Dickson and Stringer this year spending far too much time supporting the midfield and defence. We also lack key forwards which hasn't helped our cause. Cordy proved today that he is purely a defender. I would still like to see Tom Boyd spend more time at FF with Campbell and Roughead sharing the ruck duties. There also needs to be a lot less handball which simply delays our forward entries. We should be able to select a far stronger lineup for our first final than what took the field today which will change the dynamics greatly should Libba Wood Macrae and Roughead be right to return.

[bornadog]

Our ultra defensive game plan doesn't lend itself to a cohesive forward line with both Dickson and Stringer this year spending far too much time supporting the midfield and defence. We also lack key forwards which hasn't helped our cause. Cordy proved today that he is purely a defender. I would still like to see Tom Boyd spend more time at FF with Campbell and Roughead sharing the ruck duties. There also needs to be a lot less handball which simply delays our forward entries. We should be able to select a far stronger lineup for our first final than what took the field today which will change the dynamics greatly should Libba Wood Macrae and Roughead be right to return.

I think the on going injuries hasn't helped us at all.

[Eastdog]

Our ultra defensive game plan doesn't lend itself to a cohesive forward line with both Dickson and Stringer this year spending far too much time supporting the midfield and defence. We also lack key forwards which hasn't helped our cause. Cordy proved today that he is purely a defender. I would still like to see Tom Boyd spend more time at FF with Campbell and Roughead sharing the ruck duties. There also needs to be a lot less handball which simply delays our forward entries. We should be able to select a far stronger lineup for our first final than what took the field today which will change the dynamics greatly should Libba Wood Macrae and Roughead be right to return.

Overall defensively we have been good this year despite all our injuries but at other times it hasn't been so good.

Our forward structure needs a radical change. Hopefully with Stewart Crameri coming back that will help out Stringer and Boyd - who I want to see play FF as that was the whole idea of acquiring him. The ruck is another area that we might need to look at as clearly now Minson looks on the way out so it is Campbell and Roughead who need to step up here - would be nice to get a Grundy clone.