The best list in the competition!

[bulldogtragic]

Our top 22 are AFL Premiers. Our bottom 22 are VFL Premiers.

Safe to say, this is the best list in the comp - plus add Crameri, Cloke, Bob & Adams and good trades.

How do we go about getting Dalrymple that Bronze statue out the front next to EJs?

[Eastdog]

Bevo as well now deserves something named at the Whitten Oval.

[hlnbidoffer]

Incredible!! We have serious depth to be able to achieve two premierships!

[BulldogBelle]

Our top 22 are AFL Premiers. Our bottom 22 are VFL Premiers.

Safe to say, this is the best list in the comp - plus add Crameri, Cloke, Bob & Adams and good trades.

How do we go about getting Dalrymple that Bronze statue out the front next to EJs?


And hopefully Wallis can get back towards the later half of next season

[merantau]

We have assembled a formidable team both on and off the field. Let's get behind the team and stay ON TOP.

[bornadog]

The difference in the Grand Final was our bottom 6 - 8 were way better than Sydney's

[LostDoggy]

Just to add to the optimism; Libba and Morris played through the finals in severe pain - second year back from his major injury Libba should be much better next year. Bont played every game of the year after having no preseason at all in 2016, with a full preseason, it'll be scary to see what heights he can reach next year. Stringer was clearly impaired for most of the year.

Potentially, our 4 best players are Bont, Libba, Stringer and TBoyd. With good preseasons, all should be way better next year.

[Ghost Dog]

Not sure about best list. But it's the best team. When I think about GWS, they ooze talent but we have the heart. That comes from something else.

[Ghost Dog]

Just to add to the optimism; Libba and Morris played through the finals in severe pain - second year back from his major injury Libba should be much better next year. Bont played every game of the year after having no preseason at all in 2016, with a full preseason, it'll be scary to see what heights he can reach next year. Stringer was clearly impaired for most of the year.

Potentially, our 4 best players are Bont, Libba, Stringer and TBoyd. With good preseasons, all should be way better next year.

Was reading Libba hurt his ankle in the post prelim celebrations on field... haha

[Ozza]

Going to be hard to get a game next season.

Good luck picking a 'best 22' - especially seeing as 22 of the list just played in the premiership!

To think that Suckling, Murphy, Wallis, Redpath, Crameri, Adams, Jong - all didn't play, not to mention all the young blokes who will likely improve and be very motivated to get into the side.

[bulldogtragic]

Going to be hard to get a game next season.

Good luck picking a 'best 22' - especially seeing as 22 of the list just played in the premiership!

To think that Suckling, Murphy, Wallis, Redpath, Crameri, Adams, Jong - all didn't play, not to mention all the young blokes who will likely improve and be very motivated to get into the side.

An in form Cloke too. And if we trade for a Deledio type, it's a near impossible task to pick 22.

[Ozza]

An in form Cloke too. And if we trade for a Deledio type, it's a near impossible task to pick 22.

Please stop mentioning Cloke!!!!!!
Is there any way we can back out of this silly move.

[comrade]

Please stop mentioning Cloke!!!!!!
Is there any way we can back out of this silly move.

A $200K experienced key forward, that is known as an exceptional mentor and maintains the highest standards at training.

With Redpath down, he will replace Cordy in the forward line (who despite being a Premiership CHF is more naturally suited to defence).

For mine, he's a no brainer.

[1eyedog]

Mine too. I can see him recapturing some of his career best form in a great team and if he does look out rest of the competition in 2017. Definitely worth the risk.

Rather than best list I would say greatest depth.

[bornadog]

Mine too. I can see him recapturing some of his career best form in a great team and if he does look out rest of the competition in 2017. Definitely worth the risk.

There is a massive difference in expectations for Cloke, between the Pies and Dogs. At the Pies, he is expected to kick 5 goals everyweek and the pressure is huge. At the Bulldogs, Bevo only expects him to take contested marks in the forward half or bring the ball to ground. If he can kick one or two a week and take some marks, at $200k, we have a winner.

[Ozza]

A $200K experienced key forward, that is known as an exceptional mentor and maintains the highest standards at training.

With Redpath down, he will replace Cordy in the forward line (who despite being a Premiership CHF is more naturally suited to defence).

For mine, he's a no brainer.

I just can't agree with this move. We just won the premiership - the mix was good enough to win it - and we had a dozen or so blokes waiting in the wings or injured that could easily have been in the team - who are already part of a group that is extremely tight knit.

If you're suggesting that Zaine is out of the forward line - then who does he replace in defence? Zaine is 19 - and 11 games in to his career - his improvement could be quite rapid.
And if Cloke is there and playing forward (if he is good enough to make the team...which I doubt on recent form) then where does Crameri play?

I have huge doubts on Cloke's capacity to play our frenetic game style.

To me, its an absolute waste of space on the list, and confirms that we have to get rid of another one of our own.

[1eyedog]

There is a massive difference in expectations for Cloke, between the Pies and Dogs. At the Pies, he is expected to kick 5 goals everyweek and the pressure is huge. At the Bulldogs, Bevo only expects him to take contested marks in the forward half or bring the ball to ground. If he can kick one or two a week and take some marks, at $200k, we have a winner.

No doubt and I agree he will play Zaine's role up forward. He would have taken Grundy yesterday making a Grundy-type accountable. Lot's more than kicking goals as a key forward.

[Eastdog]

Please stop mentioning Cloke!!!!!!
Is there any way we can back out of this silly move.

Cloke could go either way really but I think we will be absolutely fine if we didn't get him. We have Tom Boyd who has really improved of late and Stewart Crameri to really give us a great forward structure which will hopefully help Jake Stringer.

If we were to get Cloke what would we give up. A 4th round draft pick? If that is a case we would virtually get him for free.

[bulldogtragic]

All Australian, Multiple club leading goal kicking, with over 400 career goals, premiership player who is 29, 196cm, 105kg, a hard runner who runs over 15km a game, who ripped up a lucrative contract at a 'big club' to play on the minimum wage ($180,000 or so) , nominated us 7 weeks before trade week, and taking effectively the last spot on our list for the trade of possibly only pick 59. If this isn't one of the best potential trades we have ever done (mega low risk, mega huge return potential) then I'm confused about what a great trade looks like.

[1eyedog]

All Australian, Multiple club leading goal kicking, with over 400 career goals, premiership player who is 29, 196cm, 105kg, a hard runner who runs over 15km a game, who ripped up a lucrative contract at a 'big club' to play on the minimum wage ($180,000 or so) , nominated us 7 weeks before trade week, and taking effectively the last spot on our list for the trade of possibly only pick 59. If this isn't one of the best potential trades we have ever done (mega low risk, mega huge return potential) then I'm confused about what a great trade looks like.

Bevo and JMac are all over this one. I'd back them in to know what they're doing.

[bulldogtragic]

Bevo and JMac are all over this one. I'd back them in to know what they're doing.

And we've hired Collingwood's forward coach. If Steve Grace said in his interview don't recruit Cloke we wouldn't be. I dare say he told them in the right environment with the right coach, he's got several good years in him...

[Ozza]

All Australian, Multiple club leading goal kicking, with over 400 career goals, premiership player who is 29, 196cm, 105kg, a hard runner who runs over 15km a game, who ripped up a lucrative contract at a 'big club' to play on the minimum wage ($180,000 or so) , nominated us 7 weeks before trade week, and taking effectively the last spot on our list for the trade of possibly only pick 59. If this isn't one of the best potential trades we have ever done (mega low risk, mega huge return potential) then I'm confused about what a great trade looks like.

Ok. So all of the career achievements are from a fair while ago. He hasn't had a very good season since 2011. Him ripping up a contract is irrelevant - as he is leaving Collingwood because he is out of favour and unlikely to be playing senior footy next year.

I see his size/weight as almost a negative in terms of how we play.
We already have a monster forward, in Boyd. Apart from Boyd, we thrive with our mobile forward line which generates pressure on the oppositions defenders.

I haven't seen a great deal of evidence of manic pressure from Cloke.

I think you're getting caught up in the romance of what Cloke used to be.

I couldn't give a hoot what money/pay cut is involved - I would much rather try and hold on to a Nathan Hrovat who I believe has a real future and has 10 years ahead of him - then have Cloke playing VFL. Because that is where Cloke will play. There's no way he gets a game before Crameri, or any of the other premiership forwards.

[1eyedog]

Yep Cloke seems to be the perfect type to bring in when you're in your window. Forward line will go nuts next year with Crammers and Cloke down there.

[Eastdog]

And we've hired Collingwood's forward coach. If Steve Grace said in his interview don't recruit Cloke we wouldn't be. I dare say he told them in the right environment with the right coach, he's got several good years in him...

As I posted above I'm in the middle on Cloke but if we do secure him if may well workout for him. A change of environment night just what he needs. My brother who is a Pies supporter says though that Cloke can be a very frustrating player who if he doesn't get going early he doesn't get into the match much and he isn't the best reader of the play. With Bevo at the helm things could change for him that's if we do a trade.

[bulldogtragic]

Ok. So all of the career achievements are from a fair while ago. He hasn't had a very good season since 2011. Him ripping up a contract is irrelevant - as he is leaving Collingwood because he is out of favour and unlikely to be playing senior footy next year.

I see his size/weight as almost a negative in terms of how we play.
We already have a monster forward, in Boyd. Apart from Boyd, we thrive with our mobile forward line which generates pressure on the oppositions defenders.

I haven't seen a great deal of evidence of manic pressure from Cloke.

I think you're getting caught up in the romance of what Cloke used to be.

I couldn't give a hoot what money/pay cut is involved - I would much rather try and hold on to a Nathan Hrovat who I believe has a real future and has 10 years ahead of him - then have Cloke playing VFL. Because that is where Cloke will play. There's no way he gets a game before Crameri, or any of the other premiership forwards.

We are going to have to disagree. Collingwood have tabled offers on Wells & Mayne. With what their cap was, to have that cash to table it means Cloke has been traded albeit unofficially. I'd say there's a 100% likelihood he's with us next year and I'm obviously supportive.

[1eyedog]

Ok. So all of the career achievements are from a fair while ago. He hasn't had a very good season since 2011. Him ripping up a contract is irrelevant - as he is leaving Collingwood because he is out of favour and unlikely to be playing senior footy next year.

I see his size/weight as almost a negative in terms of how we play.
We already have a monster forward, in Boyd. Apart from Boyd, we thrive with our mobile forward line which generates pressure on the oppositions defenders.

I haven't seen a great deal of evidence of manic pressure from Cloke.

I think you're getting caught up in the romance of what Cloke used to be.

I couldn't give a hoot what money/pay cut is involved - I would much rather try and hold on to a Nathan Hrovat who I believe has a real future and has 10 years ahead of him - then have Cloke playing VFL. Because that is where Cloke will play. There's no way he gets a game before Crameri, or any of the other premiership forwards.

Well hopefully he helps the VFL to another flag then, and at sub 200k he'd be worth it and hey, if he does work his way into the senior side and makes a contribution, which I think he will, that's a bonus.

But seriously two months ago against the Preliminary Final contender's GWS Cloke kicks four goals, gets 20 disposals and takes 12 marks. He needs to be harnessed.

I hear he'll be on 20k less than Adcock was this year. C'mon Ozza, seriously?

[Ozza]

We are going to have to disagree. Collingwood have tabled offers on Wells & Mayne. With what their cap was, to have that cash to table it means Cloke has been traded albeit unofficially. I'd say there's a 100% likelihood he's with us next year and I'm obviously supportive.

I certainly don't dispute that its a done deal. He surely will be with us next year.
And obviously I am not on board - strategically - with the decision.

But of course, once he is in our jumper....he is one of our boys..so I'll grin and bear it - and hope that he helps us win games.

[Ozza]

Well hopefully he helps the VFL to another flag then, and at sub 200k he'd be worth it and hey, if he does work his way into the senior side and makes a contribution, which I think he will, that's a bonus.

But seriously two months ago against the Preliminary Final contender's GWS Cloke kicks four goals, gets 20 disposals and takes 12 marks. He needs to be harnessed.

I hear he'll be on 20k less than Adcock was this year. C'mon Ozza, seriously?

Wasn't Adcock a rookie this year?

I'd be very happy for Cloke to be a rookie that we can upgrade if a key position type went down!

[dukedog]

Cloke isn't moving to the dogs to play vfl. If he wanted to play vfl he would stay at collingwood on triple the salary he will get at the dogs. He is going to be hell bent on making the best 22. Boyd and cloke or cloke and roughead resting forward would be very very good for structure. Crammers isnt a key forward nor is stringer. You see what happens when stringer gets the best defender. He gets smothered. Cloke takes the best defender each week. Frees up the package and crammers. Plus we all forget we will have an injury. Its just footy.

[Ghost Dog]

Rather have a tall who can ruck. Very unsure as to the wisdom of Cloke's selection, and hope we are not paying too much. His kicking accuracy might need a bit of Jedi mind trickery from Bevo.

[bulldogtragic]

Rather have a tall who can ruck. Very unsure as to the wisdom of Cloke's selection, and hope we are not paying too much.

Pick 59 and minimum wage. That's theft by us.

[Ghost Dog]

Pick 59 and minimum wage. That's theft by us.

Well, It's hardly the time to cast any doubts over the wisdom of Simon, Jason and their team who have given us so much. When he puts on the tri-colour I am sure I will be convinced.

[GVGjr]

This is a very interesting debate. One of the problems I see is that many seem to focus on the pay packet that Cloke is apparently willing to play for and simply assuming it's a no brainer.
Are we being seduced by his 'Cheap as Chips' price tag or do we genuinely think he can make a significant contribution in making our forward line more scoreboard productive? I suggest that the focus should be more on what we believe he can contribute with our emerging forward line.

While its great that he wants to come to us and that he is very likely to be more than reasonable with his financial considerations, I still wonder how we can squeeze in Cloke, Boyd, Crameri, Stringer, Dickson, Smith and 4 or 5 midfielders who rotate through the forward line?

The positive for me is that I believe Cloke is not a spent force at the senior level and that I think he will benefit greatly from Bevo's soft touch and encouragement especially when considered to Buckley approach of shattering of his confidence.

I'm not sure we need him or if he can take us towards a more productive forward line but it's as good as done.

[bulldogtragic]

This is a very interesting debate. One of the problems I see is that many seem to focus on the pay packet that Cloke is apparently willing to play for and simply assuming it's a no brainer.
Are we being seduced by his 'Cheap as Chips' price tag or do we genuinely think he can make a significant contribution in making our forward line more scoreboard productive? I suggest that the focus should be more on what we believe he can contribute with our emerging forward line.

While its great that he wants to come to us and that he is very likely to be more than reasonable with his financial considerations, I still wonder how we can squeeze in Cloke, Boyd, Crameri, Stringer, Dickson, Smith and 4 or 5 midfielders who rotate through the forward line?

The positive for me is that I believe Cloke is not a spent force at the senior level and that I think he will benefit greatly from Bevo's soft touch and encouragement especially when considered to Buckley approach of shattering of his confidence.

I'm not sure we need him or if he can take us towards a more productive forward line but it's as good as done.

The deal is important in what our risk is. If it were pick 36 I'd be concerned. If it's a fourth rounder there's no real risk.

I think he has a fair bit of good footy in him. I've expanded upon this in the Welcome thread. But I really like the idea of what we can do with him and back Bevo, JMac & Steve Grace on this call.

[ratsmac]

I'm more than happy to get Cloke so long as he doesn't become a distraction when /if he is playing at Footscray and can't break into a reigning premiership (feels good saying that) team. If Clokey (he's already one of the boyz) is willing to buy in to the team ethos, then at a fourth round pick on pittance, what have we got to lose honestly.

[Sedat]

This is a very interesting debate. One of the problems I see is that many seem to focus on the pay packet that Cloke is apparently willing to play for and simply assuming it's a no brainer.
Are we being seduced by his 'Cheap as Chips' price tag or do we genuinely think he can make a significant contribution in making our forward line more scoreboard productive? I suggest that the focus should be more on what we believe he can contribute with our emerging forward line.

While its great that he wants to come to us and that he is very likely to be more than reasonable with his financial considerations, I still wonder how we can squeeze in Cloke, Boyd, Crameri, Stringer, Dickson, Smith and 4 or 5 midfielders who rotate through the forward line?

The positive for me is that I believe Cloke is not a spent force at the senior level and that I think he will benefit greatly from Bevo's soft touch and encouragement especially when considered to Buckley approach of shattering of his confidence.

I'm not sure we need him or if he can take us towards a more productive forward line but it's as good as done.
Our premiership CHF is Zaine Cordy. Our forward line is a work in progress and needs to be improved if we are to keep improving and keep pace with the likes of GWS.

I agree with you that Cloke has good football ahead of him. Structurally he is a different beast to all the players you've mentioned and I see him being a lead-up CHF connector target for our mids to spot up - he certainly has the physical capabilities to perform this role for us next year and in 2018

[LostDoggy]

I think the best way to view Cloke is as a straight up replacement for Redpath while he is out. If he forces his way into best 22, well done to him but, for the price we are paying, if he is a depth foward, then he is still worth it. We need an experienced KPF option and we won't get better than him for the price. If he is proves to be a valuable best 22 power forward, then we have committed highway robbery.

[The Doctor]

Our top 22 are AFL Premiers. Our bottom 22 are VFL Premiers.

Safe to say, this is the best list in the comp - plus add Crameri, Cloke, Bob & Adams and good trades.



Cloke aside I'm not worried about trades (especially incoming). I like what we have and that we should be even stronger with the return of Murphy, Crameri, Wallis and Adams in particular.

But I'm also buoyed by what we have in our VFL premiership team. I think Williams, Smith, Webb and Lynch are going to have very bright futures and I wouldn't be surprised if the first 3 play a lot of senior footy next year adding a bit of dash around the ground.

[Ozza]

I know Zaine is not your typical CHF - and I doubt he will play there once Crameri comes back in - but watching the GF (again) last night, and I would encourage others to notice next time you watch it again - to look at how many ground balls Zaine gets to in the last quarter and how many contests he impacts. The half volley pick up from Bont's right foot pass was great, and there are several times on the southern stand side he gets to the footy before his opponent, gathers and handballs off to keep us moving.

He's really had a good finals series.
To think of his two goals at Spotless, plus the goal he created by bringing it to ground and then handballing to Smith for our first.
Against the Hawks, Gibson had no impact in the first half, and then Zaine gaves us the flexibility to move JJ forward and him back in the second half to get JJ into it.
In Perth, McGovern barely sighted.
And to get us on the board in the Grand Final after getting Mills HTB.
He had some really important moments - and was symbolic about what we are about - playing a role to, above all else, help the team.

I was a long way off being convinced about Zaine before the finals - but as an 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th gamer - he certainly held his own in the 4 finals and did what we needed him to do for the team.

[hujsh]

I see his size/weight as almost a negative in terms of how we play.
We already have a monster forward, in Boyd. Apart from Boyd, we thrive with our mobile forward line which generates pressure on the oppositions defenders.


If you're suggesting our forward line has been functioning well I'd have to disagree. We won the premiership in spite of our forward line and if we lose a few repeat entries but get better at converting them into goals that's a win in my book

[Ozza]

We averaged 96 points a game in the finals - against 3 top 4 sides, and West Coast in Perth.
Plus we have Crameri to come back into the side.

I'm happy with the forward make up. Especially seeing as Tom Boyd will be a beast next year, and Stringer can definitely improve his form (although he did 42 goals to be our leading goal kicker).

[Hot_Doggies]

Cloke aside I'm not worried about trades (especially incoming). I like what we have and that we should be even stronger with the return of Murphy, Crameri, Wallis and Adams in particular.

But I'm also buoyed by what we have in our VFL premiership team. I think Williams, Smith, Webb and Lynch are going to have very bright futures and I wouldn't be surprised if the first 3 play a lot of senior footy next year adding a bit of dash around the ground.

Plus Bailey Dale.

[Cyberdoggie]

If you're suggesting our forward line has been functioning well I'd have to disagree. We won the premiership in spite of our forward line and if we lose a few repeat entries but get better at converting them into goals that's a win in my book

If our forward was functioning well we would smash teams with the number of inside 50's we generate.

We won the premiership with the benefit of heart and desperation, resolve, passion and a little bit of luck.
If we think we will win again next year by doing exactly the same thing again then we are delirious.

We need to improve our marking talls up forward, and also key back.
Both Hamling and Roberts are ok but they are not elite, We can certainly improve in that area and we also need to find replacements for Boyd and Morris and develop them.

On Zaine, he did a fantastic job as a defensive forward and he did exactly the job asked of him. Is he a key tall forward, no he is not. Cordy could be a very good defender and possible Morris replacement and he needs to be given that chance. Pigeon holing him like Picken as a tagger is a mistake and will hurt his development long term.

We also need more line breaking run. Apart from JJ and Murphy there isn't anything else.

Let's not kid ourselves with our victory here, we achieved something fantastic but we are not perfect.

What if we changed history and the bye round wasn't there this year and we quite possibly would of lost to the eagles and the miracle never happened.

If we finished 7th what would we be thinking now? It's the same team, we just got some players back but if that never occurred i'm sure we would be advocating making some changes to improve the team.

If Cloke is going to give us 90% of his best, then i'm all for it and I think Bevo will know how to bring it out of him.
We are also in a great position to leverage our depth players perceived value right now for picks or trades.
Hrovat, Honey, Jong, Stevens have good value as players that couldn't fit in to a premiership side but also contributed to a VFL premiership. If we don't think they are going to feature long term then now is the time to move them on.

[comrade]

We're still a developing team and winning the flag doesn't change that.

We have plenty of gaps and areas of improvement (forward line, line breaking mids, even KPD). We should be aiming at a 5-10 years of on field dominance and leverage that into a sustainable off field position (record members, no debt, top % of footy department spend).

Plenty of hard decisions to be made. There are depth players on the list that should be moved on (both for their own sake and ours).

[boydogs]

Would the doubters change their mind if the player we were bringing in wasn't Cloke? e.g. Tomlinson, Mason Wood, Jenkins?

Tom Boyd was used up the ground more this year, Redpath is out with an ACL, and Zaine Cordy has been moved forward to plug the gap. The need is obvious to me

[JohnGentStand]

There seems to be a lot of focus on our best 22 when we played 39 players over the home & away season. For mine, 39 players got us there and they all deserve a medal. Cloke is in our best 39 :)
I am going to hate losing Hrovat as he has a big upside. Prudden, Stevens, Honeychurch & Minson all delisted / traded for mine.